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France: Fleet Holland can retreat to Helgoland Bight
Austria: Army Serbia can retreat to Albania
Message from Italy to Austria
So who's out first, you or me?
Message from Italy to France and Turkey
Italian units, up for highest bid. Make all inquiries at the Naples Arena
(while that's still Italian!)
Message from Italy to Russia
Uh oh...
Message from Austria to Italy
>
> So who's out first, you or me?
>
The german.
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
Well....Russia seems to think he will be kept in this 3 way draw....
He is wrong. I, from here on out, my personal mission is to make sure
Russia doesnt survive.
He has betrayed us and it is our downfall....
Andy
Every normal man must be tempted, at times,
to spit on his hands, hoist the skull and
crossbones, and begin slitting throats.
- H. L. Mencken
Message from Italy to Austria
How did Russia betray us?
Message from Turkey to Russia
happy now?
Message from Turkey to France
what should I do with Russia, Moscow?
and I assume the plan still is on for you to support Ion-Tun?
Message from Austria to Russia
You wont get an opportunity to lie to me again....
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
How exactly did Russia betray us? He just took a big chunk out of France and
has maybe turned the tide in the Northeast. What am I missing here?
Kaiser Erik
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
>
> How exactly did Russia betray us? He just took a big chunk out of France and
> has maybe turned the tide in the Northeast. What am I missing here?
Could it be that he is not only standing by while the Turk attacks me, he
is supporting him at places and feeding him every bit of info he gets
here.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but didnt we all say that we needed to work
together to have a chance at surviving.
Message from Austria to Italy
> How did Russia betray us?
>
By supplying the Turk with information, and not follwing through on his
promises to me and supporting the Turk against me
We are either *all working together* or we arent, and Turkey is going to
get all of my dots if I dont get some help....
Message from Russia to Turkey
> happy now?
Yes, thanks. Allowing the retreat to Albania may have been a mistake,
though.
Nicky.
Message from Russia to Italy
Mario,
> Uh oh...
Hmm, Turkey was supposed to order Alb-Tri, Gre-Alb to destroy
Serbia. I wonder why he didn't? I have a very hard time figuring
the Turk out, so I don't want to state anything as a fact, but he could
have moved there to support you.
Nicky.
Message from Russia to Austria
Andy,
> You wont get an opportunity to lie to me again....
Fair enough, though it wasn't a lie at the time I offered the Support.
I did change my mind later and fail to inform you, so it was a lie of
omission, I suppose.
Eric.
Message from Austria to Russia
> Andy,
>
> > You wont get an opportunity to lie to me again....
>
> Fair enough, though it wasn't a lie at the time I offered the Support.
> I did change my mind later and fail to inform you, so it was a lie of
> omission, I suppose.
Whatever.....you are still going to die.
I still have NO CLUE why you are helping the Turk...
Im assuming at this point it has to be personal...
Message from Observer to Observer
The previous power rankings:
F1905M
03/28/2003
1. France - 6
--------------
2. Turkey - 7
3. Austria - 5
--------------
4. Germany - 4
5. Italy - 5
--------------
6. Russia - 2
--------------
7. England - 5
The current power rankings:
S1907R
04/18/2003
1. France - 9
--------------
2. Turkey - 8
3. Russia - 3
--------------
4. Austria - 5
5. Germany - 5
6. Italy - 4
--------------
7. England - 0
It's been a while since my last power rankings. I hope everyone has
survived well without them.
1. France
He may lose both Holland and Edinburgh, but this is still not a bad
position. Depending on what Turkey and Italy do, he may own Tunis by
the end of the year, he is guaranteed to take London, if he wants it
bad enough, and he has a serious threat against both Denmark and Kiel.
If a couple things go his way this year, he'll be close to having a
forced win.
Don't be surprised if France retakes Holland by convincing Russia to
take Kiel with French support. If that happens, then France will
probably also tell Russia to take Edinburgh, while he takes London.
Tamas has played a masterful game and if anyone deserves a win, it's him.
2. Turkey
For a while there, I was thinking that Turkey was trying to set some
sort of record for the greatest number of turns having a force on Ion
without taking advantage of it. Ever since his stab of Russia, he's
been in the driver's seat in the east, but he hasn't been driving. His
moves have been timid, and as a result, he's allowed France to move
into first. His position still looks good for a draw, but he's let all
chance for a win fly out the window.
Earlier in the game he made a comment that he couldn't win in general
(or something to that effect). He's wrong. He could have. I think he
has the talent to win. His tactics are good enough and his diplomacy
is better than average. Unfortunately, he seems to think otherwise and
so he played for a draw. It would be interesting if we could see how
this game would have turned out if he hadn't been shackled by his
belief that he couldn't win.
3. Russia
You don't often see three center powers in such good shape.
Russia has gone from front runner to the walking dead to likely draw
participant.
Russia has to do two things: make sure the game ends in a draw and
make sure it's not a two way. Success at both of these means that he
almost definitely has a share of a three way.
This year, he may very well capture three centers (Edinburgh, Moscow
and Holland/Kiel). He needs eight to hold of France. If he can get
there, he's just about guaranteed his draw position. Here's the line
he'd need to hold:
F Bar (supports Nwy)
F Nwy
F Ska (supports Den)
F Den
F Bal (supports Den)
A Ber (supports Mun)
A Mun
A Sil (supports Mun)
His eight centers would be StP, Mos, War, Nwy, Swe, Den, Ber and Mun.
If France holds Tunis, then Turkey wouldn't be able to attack Russia
without giving France the chance to solo. Russia's only concern would
be that France voluntarily might give up Tunis so that Turkey would
agree to squeeze Russia out.
Kudos to Russia on turning nothing into something.
4. Austria
Yes Turkey made a mistake in allowing A Ser a retreat, no it won't
make much difference. Turkey will just send A Gal to Bud and F Gre to
Alb. The strongest attack that Austria can make on Serbia is a two
strength. Since Turkey will support with Bulgaria, the loss of the
Austrian unit is only delayed by a turn.
5. Germany
I was going to rank Italy above Germany, but then I realized that when
Russia takes Kiel (okay, IF Russia takes Kiel), Germany will retreat
to Berlin. The move will hurt Germany, but it'll pretty much kill
Italy. Both results are good for Russia, so don't be surprised to see
it happen.
6. Italy
Turkey has finally taken the Ionian so now it's pretty much just a
matter of time. He may very well lose both Berlin and Tunis in the
fall. That'll knock him down to two units.
The big question he faces is should his army move to Piedmont to
bounce France, or Venice to retake a home center? If he drops to two,
he's unlikely to come back. OTOH, he'll never be able to cooperate
with Austria again if he takes Venice. OTOOH, Austrian cooperation
doesn't seem to have much value anymore.
7. England
RIP.
I'd like to welcome our English player to the group. Dave, if you've
got any questions or comments, please be sure to post them. Don't be
shy. Reading all the posts may take a while, since there are well over
2,000. Still it should be pretty informative. I assume you've already
started on this.
With England gone and Germany, Italy and Austria in the process of
dying, I'd say we're entering the endgame about now. This game could
be over by 1910.
If anyone has any questions or comments, please be sure to post them.
Also, if anyone is interested in playing in the next comments game,
let me know.
Greg
Message from Turkey to Russia
>
>
>Yes, thanks. Allowing the retreat to Albania may have been a mistake,
>though.
it would have been better had it been destroyed, but I can still
prevent Austria from doing anything, I just have to tap Bud and Alb
and all is good.
I assume that once you get to Mos and build that you won't build any
army, but rather a fleet to attack France?
it is a llittle odd..me helping you get SCs while Italy helps me,
while at the same time you taking stuff from France!
Message from Observer to Observer
David Shewchuk wrote:
>
> 2. It was interesting to see the split of opinion on my generic
> openings to F and G. In the game that I've started since as E, I
> sent greetings emails rather than "let's attack X together" presses.
> France didn't respond for three days, Germany responded right away,
> and it's still EG in 1905.
I'm of the opinion that the initial press just gets a conversation
started. The substance of the press hardly matters, just start talking
and see what you can develop out of it. Alot of opening press is
little more than "my embassy is now open, you are all invited for a
wine tasting party". Is that any better than "hey A, let's attack B"
and "hey B, let's attack A"?
> 3. Why the surrender? Mostly because I'm too new at this to
> realistically hope for a solo, and I know it.
No one is too new to have any chance for a solo. The thing that stops
too many people from soloing is that they think they can't do it. See
my comments about Turkey.
> I felt from word "go"
> like I needed a partner to have a realistic chance.
Absolutely. You have to have an ally. France didn't get where he is
now without allies. At various points in the game he's been allied
with every other power on the board.
> When G stabbed,
> there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. France and I got on
> for a couple years, but I can't imagine anyone being a more annoying
> compatriot than Tamas. (Yes, he'll read this later. It's the God's
> honest truth, though.) I felt the whole time like he was running the
> show and I didn't have much room to push back.
You weren't his Janissary. If he ran the show it's because you let
him. If you wanted more say in what the plans were you needed to be
doing you own negotiating with everyone on the board and you needed to
make proposals and counter proposals to France.
However, I think that one reason you felt that France was running the
show was because your plans sometimes had flaws that he would point
out. The way to get past that problem is to learn the tactics a little
better.
BTW, if there's any press in particular that you'd like to discuss,
point it out and I'll tell you how I would have responded if I were in
your position.
> All right...it's now even later, and I'm even more tired. I'll check
> in tomorrow and see if there's a flurry of questioning. Please offer
> criticisms...they'll be well received and -hopefully- learned from.
Excellent. Sorry it took a few days for my response, been kind of busy
lately with April 15th. Hopefully we'll get another commentator or two
to join the discussion.
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
<<
> 2. It was interesting to see the split of opinion on my generic
> openings to F and G. In the game that I've started since as E, I
> sent greetings emails rather than "let's attack X together" presses.
> France didn't respond for three days, Germany responded right away,
> and it's still EG in 1905.
I'm of the opinion that the initial press just gets a conversation
started. The substance of the press hardly matters, just start talking
and see what you can develop out of it. Alot of opening press is
little more than "my embassy is now open, you are all invited for a
wine tasting party". Is that any better than "hey A, let's attack B"
and "hey B, let's attack A"?
>>
Absolutely it is. If you tell both A and B that you want to join with them
to kill the other, word gets around. Get to know the players first. Speak
in hypotheticals. Always qualify your early statements. "I'd consider
joining an attack on Germany, but I'm not set on it."
<<
> 3. Why the surrender? Mostly because I'm too new at this to
> realistically hope for a solo, and I know it.
No one is too new to have any chance for a solo. The thing that stops
too many people from soloing is that they think they can't do it. See
my comments about Turkey.
>>
If you really want to learn the game, try picking up a weak position as a
sub. You have nothing to lose. There will be players out there who have it
in for the other, and you have a chance to find allies. Eventually, you will
salvage a 3-way draw from a weak position, as our Russian player could manage
in this game. That is one way to get the confidence you need to solo.
<<
> When G stabbed,
> there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. France and I got on
> for a couple years, but I can't imagine anyone being a more annoying
> compatriot than Tamas. (Yes, he'll read this later. It's the God's
> honest truth, though.) I felt the whole time like he was running the
> show and I didn't have much room to push back.
You weren't his Janissary. If he ran the show it's because you let
him. If you wanted more say in what the plans were you needed to be
doing you own negotiating with everyone on the board and you needed to
make proposals and counter proposals to France.
>>
I met Tamas recently when I took over a weak position just for the hell of
it. The game was Tamas' first win and I damn near managed to salvage a draw
with just one center. It was amazing how much influence I had in that game,
because my center mattered.
<< However, I think that one reason you felt that France was running the
show was because your plans sometimes had flaws that he would point
out. The way to get past that problem is to learn the tactics a little
better.
>>
France is running the show because he sends out about as much press as the
other players combined. Nobody likes him, but people always consider his
proposals. If they don't get any good suggestions from anybody else, they go
for it. Actually, I think Tamas erred by cutting you loose. He had you
agreeing to most anything and he could have prevented the return of Russia by
letting you finish the job. There would have been plenty of time to clobber
you later.
<< Excellent. Sorry it took a few days for my response, been kind of busy
lately with April 15th. Hopefully we'll get another commentator or two
to join the discussion.
>>
Your wish is my command. Greg, you have done the hobby a wonderful service
with this game. Damn. Now I'm going to have a lot more trouble keeping up
my rating.
Oh, one point about Turkey. It would have been tough for Turkey to win this
game. I think it is always hard when France builds a navy as fast as Turkey
does. It is also hard for Turkey when England dies. However, Turkey had a
great chance to get a 2-way draw with France. With best play, this is still
an option, because Russia exerts restraint on France but not on Turkey. Half
of the board is well within Turkey's grasp, even though the 18th center is
nearly impossible.
Glenn
Message from Observer to Observer
--- gledder@aol.com wrote:
> I'm of the opinion that the initial press just gets a conversation
> started. The substance of the press hardly matters, just start
> talking
> and see what you can develop out of it. Alot of opening press is
> little more than "my embassy is now open, you are all invited for a
> wine tasting party". Is that any better than "hey A, let's attack B"
>
> and "hey B, let's attack A"?
> >>
>
> Absolutely it is. If you tell both A and B that you want to join
> with them to kill the other, word gets around. Get to know the
> players first. Speak in hypotheticals. Always qualify your
> early statements. "I'd consider joining an attack on Germany,
> but I'm not set on it."
Personally, I strongly agree with this statement. I'll discuss
possibilities with anyone early on, but I almost never lie in S1901.
Since someone else invariably will, that means that you gain instant
credibility. In every game I've played in (well, that only amounts to
5, but still) I've known when a neighbor tries to play me against
another neighbor in S1901 this way. So it just comes across to me as
unnecessarily deceptive.
That said, there are some players who don't distinguish between the
hypothetical statements and commitments. As frustrating as that is to
deal with, it's important to keep in mind. And there really are players
who will ally with the first person to say "yes" (as early as S1901),
so I never (again, in 5 games) write off such a message completely.
--- Eric
Message from Observer to Observer
Would any of you veteran GM's out there have granted Germany's postponement request, when the only ground was that he'd been too busy the previous week to correspond?
Just curious.
Ben
Austria: Army Serbia → Albania
France: Fleet Holland → Helgoland Bight
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