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Austria: Removes 1 unit
France: Builds 1 unit
Message from Russia to Italy
> So, mis-order? Or did he just not want you in Berlin?
> What do you think?
He didn't want me in Berlin. He was either deliberately
misinterpreting my rationale for the move, or I was doing
such a bad job of explaining my reasoning that he didn't
trust me.
Message from Italy to Russia
Yeah I think it has to be deliberate. One thought that I had is that
perhaps he thought that you wouldn't cut support in Berlin, allowing Ber,
Boh, Sil S Tyl-Mun. So he wanted to make sure he got Munich so he
cut it himself? Though I can't see why he would think you wouldn't go
to Berlin...
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
My worries were true. I screwed it up big time. Never send two things
in one mail to the judge. I do not know how many times I screwed up my
games this way:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: USTX:comments - F1911M Press from R to F
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:10:24 +0200
From: Tamas Hauer <thauer@bluewin.ch>
To: USTX Diplomacy Judge <ustx@spencersoft.com>
References: <20030623200211.BF52EEF2@judge.stabfest.com>
signon fcomments xxx
set wait
a kie - ber
f hel - den
a mun s a pru - sil
a pru - sil
a bur s a mun
a ruh s a mun
f swe - bot
f wes - lyo
f naf s f tun
f mao - wes
a spa - wes - tys - ion - aeg - con
!!!!!! signoff !!!!!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
press to r
Nicky,
> I'm leaving work now, and do not expect to be online for
> several hours, but I will check my mail before the deadline.
> I suppose this means you have a choice to support Lvn-Bal,
> or to order something else, and leave me with and ultimatum.
This sounds more like an ultimatum for me: I told you that I would not
do Kie S Lvn-Ber but this way that you have not made up your mind, there
is no room for any compromise solution or move adjustments. :-( DUH :-)
Which leaves me with what? I am now ordering and should tell you what
my orders are so that you can use them as they are. Kind of exciting.
Of course for me the problem is the following: I could go Kie-Ber but if
I knew that you have quit FR then I should really order Swe hold, which
would be quite unfortunate if you have not quit. So the only sensible
order really is Kie S BAL-Ber, that pretty much guarantees that you are
moving that way. Unfortunately that simply kills our bid for Sil.
[... thinking ...]
Ok, here is the dry facts/result. I had told you that I cannot see it
possible that I support Lvn-Ber this fall. We have exchanged lots of
press today and I am afraid you have not convinced me a bit that Lvn-Ber
is any good for us/me. Chances are that I have not convinced you about
your plan being unplayable/incoherent but that seems to be secondary in
this case. That leaves me with supporting F BAL-Ber or moving Kie-Ber.
I understand that F BAL-Ber puts an end to your romantic dreams and it
is probably the move which is bad for both of us, so I decided against
it. Not so surprisingly this boils down to Kie-Ber and indeed I am
ordering that: Kie-Ber, Pru-Sil.
Probably this would be the place for some further interesting comments,
jokes in the hope that they would keep you on board. Unfortunately I
have said so much today that there is nothing left in my repertoire.
Whatever the result this turn, I am confident that we both enjoyed the
chat and that seems to be important, at the same time I believe that no
matter what you order, we can continue thinking together.
Good night,
tamas
Message from Observer to Observer
I think you are overlooking Turkey's last back-and-forth with France.
In it Turkey said, basicaly: You know that I can't hold StP, so offering
StP for Tun was really all just a lie to set me up for a French solo.
Honestly, I'm not clear that Turkey really understood this when it was
being discussed, but it's clear that now he is well aware that it won't
work.
Why he ever expected France to point that out to him, when Turkey
recommended and supported the idea (regardless of who mentioned it first)
is beyond me, though.
--- Eric
--- Gregory A Greenman <greg@spencersoft.com> wrote:
> I wonder what would happen if France sent a message to Turkey right
> now, saying that Russia had betrayed him and as a consequence he was
> willing to support Turkey into St Petersburg. I wonder if Turkey would
> then reciprocate by offering Tunis to France. France already told
> Turkey that he'd solo if Turkey let him have Tunis, but did Turkey
> read that? And even if he did, did it sink in? With Italy no longer on
> board for France's solo bid and with Russia balking at France's moves
> too, I don't really see another way for France to win this. So it
> might be worth a shot. The worst case is that he settles for an AFT draw.
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> commentators-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Message from Russia to Italy
> Yeah I think it has to be deliberate. One thought that I had is that
> perhaps he thought that you wouldn't cut support in Berlin, allowing
> Ber, Boh, Sil S Tyl-Mun. So he wanted to make sure he got Munich
> so he cut it himself? Though I can't see why he would think you
> wouldn't go to Berlin...
No, I was quite clear that I was ordering Lvn-Bal-Ber. He just
didn't want me to have the position.
Nicky.
Message from Italy to Russia
> No, I was quite clear that I was ordering Lvn-Bal-Ber. He just
> didn't want me to have the position.
Well, he could have thought that you were lying to him. I don't know -
you're probably right...
Still, if he was going to annoy you (by not supporting you to Ber), why
wouldn't he take Sweden instead of moving to bot?
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> !!!!!! signoff !!!!!!
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That'll do it.
>> I suppose this means you have a choice to support Lvn-Bal,
>> or to order something else, and leave me with and ultimatum.
>
> This sounds more like an ultimatum for me:
Well, I did indicate that I would check mail before deadline,
so it wasn't _quite_ an ultmatum. Would I have changed my
orders if I had received this last night? I don't know.
> I told you that I would not do Kie S Lvn-Ber
Well, no, I do not believe you ever refused to issue the support.
You repeatedly said you'd prefer Bal S Kie-Ber, and would
settle for Bal-Ber, but you never shut the door on Lvn-Ber.
> I believe that no matter what you order, we can continue
> thinking together.
Oh, sure. I never envisioned Lvn-Ber as an end to FR
cooperation. It just gives me a sliver of a hope for a
good (non-T) draw, and a fallback position to avoid
elimination if AT lock down their line, while allowing
us to force Sil and pressure Warsaw.
Nicky.
Message from Russia to Italy
> Well, he could have thought that you were lying to him.
About my motives, maybe. About my moves, no.
> Still, if he was going to annoy you (by not supporting you to Ber),
> why wouldn't he take Sweden instead of moving to bot?
We discussed it back and forth during the day yesterday, but
I was away from home last night, until a couple of hours
before deadline. That's long after he's in bed. Before I left
work, I sent him my moves, and said, 'Support me, or
tell me you're not going to. I'm going offline, but will check
for messages before the deadline.' He screwed up his press
to me, so I didn't get it last night.
Nicky.
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
What are my orders on the boot.
I know the rest.
lets get this locked in.
Andy
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
how is this for an idea for moves:
we move back to our lock-ed up stalemate position so it becomes abundantly
clear that the ball is in France's lap.
While I know that we won't help Russia or that Russia even wants help, it would
be nice to see Russia grow a set of balls and attack France. he is the only
one that even has that possibility now. and I agree with austria from earlier
today..we let Russia flap in the wind...I am treating his pieces like they are
Frances.
As for specific moves, we should work out what our default moves are going to
be in the stalemated position.. I don't have access to a map right now, but
something like this
sev s mos
ukr s war
mos s war
[should I go to galicia?]
gre h
ion s tun
nap s tys
tys s tun
rom s tus
tus s pie
pie s tyr
????
Message from Observer to Observer
Eric Goodman wrote:
> I think you are overlooking Turkey's last back-and-forth with France.
>
> In it Turkey said, basicaly: You know that I can't hold StP, so offering
> StP for Tun was really all just a lie to set me up for a French solo.
>
> Honestly, I'm not clear that Turkey really understood this when it was
> being discussed, but it's clear that now he is well aware that it won't
> work.
I'm not overlooking that. It's a long shot, but I don't see another
way for France to win at this point. Do you?
If France gives StP to Turkey, what's the worst case scenario? It
looks like a three way draw to me. So I don't see that France has
anything to lose.
If Turkey takes StP, who knows what'll happen next. Maybe Turkey will
tell France that he realizes that he can't hold it against a French
attack, so he won't let France have Tunis, unless he can have Norway
and Sweden as well.
The thing is, what's the alternative? France will take Berlin
(assuming Russia helps him), then he can eliminate Russia. Assuming he
also reclaims Marseilles, that puts him at 17. Then he bounces against
the AIT defenses until he's convinced they won't screw up their
orders. Then he backs up and lets Turkey take Tunis and they declare
an AFT draw.
His only hope in that scenario is that he can convince Italy to let
him solo in preference to the AFT draw. If he lets Turkey have StP, he
still has that hope if this doesn't work.
So, if I were him, I'd give it a shot. I'd just wait until Berlin was
in my hands first.
On another note, I was confused about the orders that FR agreed to.
Russia wanted France in GoB in case they needed to retake StP. If that
was the concern, shouldn't France have moved to Finland instead? I
don't think they'd want to dislodge Turkey from StP just to see him
retreat there.
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
Translation of relevant bits:
austria: MOVE MOVED WAIT DRAW CONC
france: MOVE MOVED WAIT DRAW CONC
germany: ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
italy: ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
russia: ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
turkey: ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
====================================================
# njstat.tcl: show interesting status of players
array set SF [list MOVE 0x1 MOVED 0x2 CD 0x4 WAIT 0x8 \
ABAND 0x10 PART 0x80 \
DRAW 0x100 DEAD 0x400 RESIGN 0x800 \
LATE 0x1000 REMIND 0x2000 CONC 0x8000]
proc BitsSet { value mask } {
return [expr ( $value & $mask ) == $mask]
}
proc Main { argc argv } {
global SF STAT
foreach power [lsort [array names STAT]] {
foreach code [list MOVE MOVED WAIT DRAW CONC] {
if { [BitsSet $STAT($power) $SF(MOVE)] } {
set s($code) $code
} else {
set s($code) "----"
}
}
puts [format "%8s: %6s %6s %6s %6s %6s" \
$power $s(MOVE) $s(MOVED) $s(WAIT) $s(DRAW) $s(CONC)]
}
}
set STAT(austria) 0x83
set STAT(france) 0x1
set STAT(germany) 0xc10
set STAT(italy) 0x82
set STAT(russia) 0x82
set STAT(turkey) 0x82
Main $argc $argv
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
I think that Austria should back off of Berlin. It can't be held long
term, and it's a way to signal to France that we don't care about what he
does.
Plus, the more centers France has, the harder it is for any of us to be
tried to be whittled out of the draw.
Other than that, I think the orders on the boot are
Ven S Rom
Pie S Mar
Nap S Tys
Tys H
Tus H
Ion S Tun
Tun H
Rom H
I think Austria should remove A Tri.
Message from Austria to Italy
Mario....are you around.
Message from Italy to Austria
Yep
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
Im removing Tri and doing just that, retreating.
I was mostly worried about Ven and Rom responsibility.
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
> how is this for an idea for moves:
>
> we move back to our lock-ed up stalemate position so it becomes abundantly
> clear that the ball is in France's lap.
My moves for the coming spring are:
Rom h
Pie s Mar
Ven s Pie
Tyr s Boh
Boh s Ber - Sil
War s Sil - Gal
Sil - Gal
Ber - Sil
Turkey:
Mos h
Ukr s War
Sev s Mos
Rum s Ukr
Gre h
Tus h
Tys h
Nap s Tys
Ion s Tun
Italy
Tun h
In the winter of next year, I remove Sil
and then we just support everything in place ad infinitum
Andy
Message from Observer to Observer
--- Gregory A Greenman <greg@spencersoft.com> wrote:
> I'm not overlooking that. It's a long shot, but I don't see another
> way for France to win at this point. Do you?
The only I way I see is for Italy to let it happen. If you're saying giving
Turkey StP would change Italy's mind, then this could help. Otherwise, I'm
not sure I see how it helps. Turkey has explicitly stated that he won't go
for a StP/Tun swap. Granted, he hasn't held to any other FT agreement....
:)
> If France gives StP to Turkey, what's the worst case scenario? It
> looks like a three way draw to me. So I don't see that France has
> anything to lose.
Maybe. I could be confusing whether or not it would be successful with
whether or not it's worth trying. At some point it wouldn't be worth it to
me to risk another round of insulting broadcasts on. But you are right that
I don't have an alternate plan!
> His only hope in that scenario is that he can convince Italy to let
> him solo in preference to the AFT draw. If he lets Turkey have StP,
> he still has that hope if this doesn't work.
Can you explain the second part of this? Are you thinking that Turkey
wouldn't protect Italian Tunis? Or are you saying that Turkey taking StP
would convince Italy to throw? I'm just not clear what part of this gives
him hope if Italy doesn't prefer a solo to an AFT.
> On another note, I was confused about the orders that FR agreed to.
> Russia wanted France in GoB in case they needed to retake StP. If
> that was the concern, shouldn't France have moved to Finland
> instead? I don't think they'd want to dislodge Turkey from StP just >
> to see him retreat there.
I think Russia's working assumption was that there was no way that move was
going to happen. If he were concerned it might, then yes, I'd agree that
that's where they should have moved. From Bot there convoy and support into
Lvn if you're really looking that far down the line. I don't know if that's
what he was going for, though.
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
Sounds good, except why not
tus s pie
>
>
>> how is this for an idea for moves:
>>
>> we move back to our lock-ed up stalemate position so it becomes abundantly
>> clear that the ball is in France's lap.
>
>My moves for the coming spring are:
>
>Rom h
>Pie s Mar
>Ven s Pie
>Tyr s Boh
>Boh s Ber - Sil
>War s Sil - Gal
>Sil - Gal
>Ber - Sil
>
>Turkey:
>
>Mos h
>Ukr s War
>Sev s Mos
>Rum s Ukr
>Gre h
>Tus h
>Tys h
>Nap s Tys
>Ion s Tun
>
>Italy
>
>Tun h
>
>In the winter of next year, I remove Sil
>
>and then we just support everything in place ad infinitum
>
>Andy
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
>
>
> Sounds good, except why not
> tus s pie
aside from being unneccesary.....no real reason.
Austria: REMOVE Army Trieste
France: BUILD Army Paris
Centers
Austria: 8
France: 12
Italy: 2
Russia: 3
Turkey: 9
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