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Message from Turkey to France
ok, what now..i am a little perplexed by your moves....
Message from Germany to France
Tamas:
Yes, the English certainly took a beating that turn. I didn't expect
that bump from the Italians, but oh, well. As you said, we're in good
shape for the fall.
I think Nth - Lon with support from Eng and Wal - Lvp is an obvious
success, but what do we do about Hol? The Italians could always poke me
again. Would you be willing to consider F Bel S A Ruhr - Hol instead?
That may have a better chance at success, as I can use Mun - Kiel to
break any Italian support that Hol might get. Also, moving Ruhr -
Holland gets that unit away from Burgundy, which must be a relief to you
in the long run.
And, of course, I've still got to worry about BOT - Swe, so an extra
center would do me good.
Italy looks to be toast. Those Turkish fleets moving out spell trouble,
and Warsaw will definitely fall this turn. I need to build back up to
deal with them ASAP.
Kaiser Erik
Message from France to all
Hi all,
I am resending a bunch of messages which I did not get confirmation on
yesterday. Apology if you get in duplicate...
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Kaiser,
Congrats on your position on Venice and Warsaw. I believe
that your hopes of getting to 6 and indeed beyond have now
fully materialized and it is quite satisfying to see the
reemergence of Austria since you took it over.
I changed my moves in the last minute, having realized that
some defense of Spain might be needed against an Italian
stab, fortunately it did not happen. I will go back to Pie
in the fall, of course this time you do not have to guess
whether I support Ven or not :-) (of course I would not even
if I was in Pie now).
I would like to know what you think about the overall
picture. Clearly it is quite unlikely that you and Turkey
survive until the end and I am wondering if you have any
plan to handle the situation on the long run. One thing
which we should certainly do is to make sure that the two of
us pick up the Italian spoils instead of Turkey establishing
a foothold there. What do you think?
Tamas
Message from France to Germany
...
Oh and maybe Swe S Nor would be useful so that finishing
England is straightforward. (?)
Tamas
Message from France to Germany
Kaiser,
Ok we have the English retreat and the board is quite
promising. We have all the chances to finish England in
time to face Turkey. I am suggesting the following moves:
A Ruh S F Bel-Hol,
F ENG S F NTH-Lon
A Wal - Lvp
You also need to play A Mun-Kie to cut the possible support
and to make sure that Italy does not take another center
from you by Kie-Ber. I might move Bur-Bel at the same time
to ease the tension on your border (unless you think you
need support for Mun in the coming spring).
What do you think?
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
> I think that letting Russia back into the game would be a mistake?
> What is your opinion on England and Germany WRT to russia and
> Scand..what type of moves can we expect?
I really do not know what to expect in Scandinavia. As for
letting Russia back into the game, I hardly think it is a
mistake. To be precise, a single extra unit will not get
him back to the game and even if he kept Warsaw he might
lose one of the northern centers.
I think that the right question is whether an extra Russian
army causes more trouble than an extra Austrian one. You
know your plans so I cannot tell which one suits you more.
But just by looking at the board it is quite clear that you
have a solid line, there is no way you can hold StP even if
you take it and you cannot take Warsaw yourself unless
Austria is insane. That means that you have to weigh what
is better for you: Austria taking Warsaw, having an army
there with no clear direction to go plus bulding another
one, or letting Russia build an army in Warsaw whose life is
at your mercy and can do life for Austria pretty difficult.
Again, I do not know what the right answer for your plans is
but I most certainly would not be scared by an extra Russian
unit.
I am actually quite curious when things will happen on the
east. Clearly Austria has no place in a draw which includes
you which means that at some point you will have to stab.
Naturally you will know the best time when to do that and
what will be the strength of both of you, I am just having a
great time guessing :-).
Back to Scandinavia: of course the English retreat is a
white spot before the fall. I would not be surprised to see
Swe S Nor, Bot-StP but I am really guessing at this point.
I am assuming Adr-Apu, Tyr S Tri-Ven, is that correct?
Tamas
Message from France to Germany
Hi Kaiser,
> Yes, the English certainly took a beating that turn. I
> didn't expect that bump from the Italians, but oh, well.
He promised he would not support Hol but did not reply to my
request of not cutting Ruh's support so I was not extremely
surprised
> what do we do about Hol? The Italians could always poke me
> again. Would you be willing to consider F Bel S A Ruhr -
> Hol instead? That may have a better chance at success, as
> I can use Mun - Kiel to break any Italian support that Hol
> might get.
Yes, I have been considering it and in fact I wanted to
suggest it but then I realized a problem. There are two
points here: Italy has already promised that he will not
interfere with me again, knowing that his fate is virtually
in my hands. That means that Bel-Hol will succeed without
question. But this is a minor issue especially because I am
just as happy with Ruh-Hol. The main problem with Ruh-Hol
is that you surely cannot build for Hol because you will not
have two centers open for the build and that seems to me a
waste of resources. I do think that on the long run Hol
should be yours, next year you can take it over from me and
build for it but I think that it would be wise not to waste
two season's worth of tempo.
> And, of course, I've still got to worry about BOT - Swe,
> so an extra center would do me good.
I will check this with Russia and if this is a real concern
then indeed this changes things and I would then certainly
vote for Ruh-Hol. The current state of affairs call for Swe
S Nor, Bot-Stp, which is indeed what I think Russia is
planning for.
> Italy looks to be toast. Those Turkish fleets moving out
> spell trouble, and Warsaw will definitely fall this
> turn. I need to build back up to deal with them ASAP.
Italy will disband his northern army, although I am guessing
that he tries one of Kie-Mun, Kie-Ber or Kie-Den just for
fun. After that (his disband) I will have to think what is
best for us: if me going after Italy hands over his centers
to A/T for free then I will have to plan quite carefully.
Ok, let me know your thoughts on the question of Holland and
at the same time I will talk to Italy (and you should to
Russia) to see what the prospects are.
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
> ok, what now..i am a little perplexed by your moves....
Which one exactly?
I told you that there is the English business which I am
taking care of while you are positioning. I did say that F
MAO is coming back to the Med, which it did, unfortunately I
could not move it right to WES because I needed to cover
Portugal if NAO-MAO.
I guess Pie-Mar is the black sheep then. It was clear that
I have no say in Venice, it goes to Austria. The only
reason to keep the army in Pie would have been if I had
wanted to support A Ven again, which of course I did not.
In the fall A Pie would have held to avoid the Ven-Pie
retreat, I did not see any more options for that. Expect
Mar-Pie in the fall which would give the exact same position
for next year.
Chosig between Pie hold twice and Pie-Mar Mar-Pie was
dictated by defensive considerations. I had a hint
(Austria) which suggested Tun-WES Tys-Lyo and I wanted to
make sure that I do not lose Spa. In fact Italy has just
confirmed that he indeed considered those moves and changed
his mind in the very last minute.
I hope that this is clear now.
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Kaiser,
I have been thinking about the coming seasons. I would like
to make sure that the two of us can divide most of Italy and
am somewhat reluctant to let Turkey pick up two dots. I am
wondering if Italian or Turkish control of ION would serve
our interest the best by the end of this year? Surely
Turkey has nothing else to do with his fleets than knocking
on ION but if his success is delayed until you bring another
Austrian fleet in the region that might actually be better
for your safety and for our cause. What do you think?
As far as concrete things, I would like to get Rome next
year. Does it in any way conflict with your plans? I moved
Pie-Mar to defend Spain but expect Mar-Pie this fall and if
you kindly supported me to Rome next fall, I would
appreciate. At some point we might want to discuss things
like Munich too... What do you think?
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> Kaiser,
>
> Congrats on your position on Venice and Warsaw. I believe
> that your hopes of getting to 6 and indeed beyond have now
> fully materialized and it is quite satisfying to see the
> reemergence of Austria since you took it over.
I will be getting to 6, at the same time the Turk gets to 8.
> I changed my moves in the last minute, having realized that
> some defense of Spain might be needed against an Italian
> stab, fortunately it did not happen. I will go back to Pie
> in the fall, of course this time you do not have to guess
> whether I support Ven or not :-) (of course I would not even
> if I was in Pie now).
That seems to be a trend. Changing your moves at the last second.
>
> I would like to know what you think about the overall
> picture. Clearly it is quite unlikely that you and Turkey
> survive until the end and I am wondering if you have any
> plan to handle the situation on the long run.
Well...if I would have gotten Venice last year, this would be a completely
different situation.
And since the Turk is forwarding me the barage of press you are sending
him telling him to attack me, I am not sure how much of this I even want
to discuss with you.
I had a plan, your actions a year ago threw a huge wrench in that plan,
and I dont have a choice, I have to work with the Turk for the forseeable
future.
One thing
> which we should certainly do is to make sure that the two of
> us pick up the Italian spoils instead of Turkey establishing
> a foothold there. What do you think?
There is NOTHING I can do to prevent a Turkish foothold in Italy, he has
made me big promises that I dont expect him to keep, because of your
actions last year, I have to take VEN with a fleet, which means that it
will take me an extra year to get to Rome, and by that time the Turk
should have Naples and Tunis.
He is already discussing how we are going to divide your dots in the
Iberian....which, I know means how he will be capturing those dots as I
dont have a navy in which to do it.
If you want to send fleets to the Med to oppose him that would be great,
but there isnt alot I can do in the short term.
Also, by his actions and the Russian disbands and moves this spring, I am
pretty sure that they have a deal of some kind.
So ...what is going on with EFG.....
Andy
Message from Austria to France
> I have been thinking about the coming seasons. I would like
> to make sure that the two of us can divide most of Italy and
> am somewhat reluctant to let Turkey pick up two dots.
There is little to nothing that I can do to prevent Turkey from getting 2
dots.
I have to take Venice with a fleet to guarantee it, which will mean it
takes an extra year to get to Rome....which it appears that you want,
instead of the typical Naples or Tunis.
I am
> wondering if Italian or Turkish control of ION would serve
> our interest the best by the end of this year?
And how do you plan to engineer that.
Surely
> Turkey has nothing else to do with his fleets than knocking
> on ION but if his success is delayed until you bring another
> Austrian fleet in the region that might actually be better
> for your safety and for our cause. What do you think?
You are kidding.....right??
> As far as concrete things, I would like to get Rome next
> year.
I dont think there is a chance of that.
Does it in any way conflict with your plans?
Well...I planned on taking Rome next year.
I moved
> Pie-Mar to defend Spain but expect Mar-Pie this fall and if
> you kindly supported me to Rome next fall,
I think the words that are appropriate here are: Not a chance.
I would
> appreciate. At some point we might want to discuss things
> like Munich too... What do you think?
I think you should have let me have Venice last year. And I am not doing
anything to Munich til my position is more established.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
I very much appreciate your straight and honest message. I will think
more about what the various things you said mean on our relationship. I
am somewhat surprised at the offense you took when you found out that I
speak with both you and T on friendly grounds and in fact I indeed
wanted to find out what each of you have in mind concerning the other.
I certainly do not find this unusual in this game and I am pretty
shocked that it hurts your feelings. At the same time I am not sure
what Turkey could have forwarded you, looking through my press archives
I do not see much more in it than the question of when he will stab you.
And this is certainly a legitimate question, n'est ce pas?
As far as the other parts are concerned, I acknowledge your position. I
have yet to find out what you thought you would achieve with the content
of your messages, I would hardly dare to limit my options in such a
drastic way, in any case I am sure that when we need it we will find the
way to work together.
As far as Venice is concerned, I hardly think that I made the wrong
decision last year, especially in light of the tune of our recent chat.
And honestly given your clear opposition of me picking up any Italian
soil, it would have been quite foolish to actively support your ventures
there. I am in fact very happy to see that my judgement was justified.
Yours,
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
I am in a somewhat unfortunate situation, I would love to further
discuss things with you but I am not sure what the most practical way
would be to do that. As long as the press I send gets back to me via
F->T->A->F I could just address them to myself.
Honestly, I have to tell you that I am not interested in a three- or
more-way draw including Austria. I really would appreciate to know your
view on the subject.
I truly think that my past history (see your stab on Russia or the FAT
arrangement) justify that I can be straight with, for one thing you can
be sure that I have never passed on anything (and will not) which is
sent to me.
with best regards,
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
Tamas,
>
> I very much appreciate your straight and honest message. I will think
> more about what the various things you said mean on our relationship. I
> am somewhat surprised at the offense you took when you found out that I
> speak with both you and T on friendly grounds and in fact I indeed
> wanted to find out what each of you have in mind concerning the other.
I dont take offense at you speaking on friendly terms to both of us, or
anyone on the board for that matter.
I do take offense at your continually telling him to attack me.
> I do not see much more in it than the question of when he will stab you.
> And this is certainly a legitimate question, n'est ce pas?
I know that it is just a matter of time.
Both you and the Italian have been basically begging (the italian much
more than you) to attaakc the Turk and stem his growth.
But you feel that its ok to expect me to do so, while limiting my
resources to do so.
> As far as the other parts are concerned, I acknowledge your position. I
> have yet to find out what you thought you would achieve with the content
> of your messages, I would hardly dare to limit my options in such a
> drastic way, in any case I am sure that when we need it we will find the
> way to work together.
I feel that you are only willing to work with me if you are getting
immediate satisfaction out of the deal. And I am the one that has to wait
to get my turn.
> As far as Venice is concerned, I hardly think that I made the wrong
> decision last year, especially in light of the tune of our recent chat.
Why?
I would have supported you into Rome this year, just as I said I would.
But your actions directly affected my ability to negotiate and in part
defend against the Turk.
> And honestly given your clear opposition of me picking up any Italian
> soil,
That is clearly incorrect. You just seem to only want to pick up the
centers that I can get to. I would support you to Naples and Tunis and
told you this some time ago, but you chose to support the Italian army in
Venice and withdraw your fleets from the Med.
it would have been quite foolish to actively support your ventures
> there. I am in fact very happy to see that my judgement was justified.
See it that way if you want to. I have no idea why you fear my growth. It
can do nothing but help your cause in the west.
But that is your choice.
Andy
>
> Yours,
>
> Tamas
>
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
Given that we apparently do not have much to discuss as far as any kind
of cooperation, we could just as well chat about life in general. I am
quite curious how you imagine the further development in this game. You
are correct in saying that I have little chance to pick up any of the
Italian dots myself, but in this situation I can hardly see what good
any damage done to Italy does for me. You surely thought about this and
correctly said that although Turkey might be kidding about the Iberian
dots, he is unlikely to get past Italy without picking up some extra
supplies from the Balkans.
It is very clear that sooner or later I will fight Turkey directly in
this game, it is quite unavoidable. It is far from unavoidable that the
two of us fight, and I am still thinking hard to understand what gain
you expect from chosing this path instead of the one which is more
rewarding. Oh, I am going astray again. So back to my original
question: do you want to give me any hint as to what you expect from the
unfolding of the midgame so that we have at least some chance to find
maybe a few points where we do not have to take the opposing stance?
Best,
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> Given that we apparently do not have much to discuss as far as any kind
> of cooperation, we could just as well chat about life in general.
Actually I think we have alot to talk about.
I am
> quite curious how you imagine the further development in this game. You
> are correct in saying that I have little chance to pick up any of the
> Italian dots myself, but in this situation I can hardly see what good
> any damage done to Italy does for me.
Well....Turkey is going to grow. I cant fight him alone, and until there
is a point that I feel comfortable, I will work with him.
You surely thought about this and
> correctly said that although Turkey might be kidding about the Iberian
> dots, he is unlikely to get past Italy without picking up some extra
> supplies from the Balkans.
Probably not, but he might.
He is offering me all of the boot. I dont believe him, but I am going to
work with it until I have a better plan.
> It is very clear that sooner or later I will fight Turkey directly in
> this game, it is quite unavoidable.
True. But you will only be doing it at sea, you wont see him on land for a
very long time
It is far from unavoidable that the
> two of us fight, and I am still thinking hard to understand what gain
> you expect from chosing this path instead of the one which is more
> rewarding.
How is it more rewarding for me?
You dont want me to get Italian dots, you want them for yourself.
I can either work with the Turk. or fight the Turk....and right now he has
position and size on me. Not much of a choice.
Oh, I am going astray again. So back to my original
> question: do you want to give me any hint as to what you expect from the
> unfolding of the midgame so that we have at least some chance to find
> maybe a few points where we do not have to take the opposing stance?
Well....I have wondered why you fear my growth.
If I get Venice and Rome, and you get Naples and Tunis, we can shut down
the Turk. Which is what I have been angling for since we started talking.
I dont understand why you seem to think that Italy needs to remain alive.
I need enough units to protect myself and fight Turkey. The only place I
can get those builds is Italy.
And I dont think you have any idea how much your supporting the Italian
last fall screwed me.
take care
Andy
Message from France to Austria
>I do take offense at your continually telling him to attack me.
>
>
Well, I would not, but we are all different. This is the fun of the
game: meeting people of so different nature, BUT:
I am truly curious what he is telling you. I will switch to my other
account (unfortunately I cannot access my archive from this windows sh&t
right now) and will collect all the sentences which concern Austria. I
would be truly surprised to find anything like what you are saying!
>I know that it is just a matter of time.
>
>Both you and the Italian have been basically begging (the italian much
>more than you) to attaakc the Turk and stem his growth.
>
>
I do not think that I did anything like that. As I said in a recent
message, I do not see a way to avoid F-T fight later in this game but I
can easily see no F-A fight. Clearly there will be a stab at some
point. You surely do not question that I would be quite sad to see if
T's stab on A would find you unprepared leading to a similar situation
to what happened with Russia.
>But you feel that its ok to expect me to do so, while limiting my
>resources to do so.
>
>
I do not see how I am limiting your resources. There was no prospect of
you stabbing Turkey this year and you do get the Venice build in time.
The other point is that there are parts of the board other than the
Piedmont area which I have to pay attention to. You might have noticed
that England stabbed me last year and it was only the matter of luck (my
taking of Bel) that I could reverse it. Given that our spring
negotiations concerning Venice failed, it was just logical to try to
offer Italy something which might have a chance of keeping him away from
me. And unfortunately I could not do any better because the Turk has
been so reluctant to move close to the IONian for ages.
>I feel that you are only willing to work with me if you are getting
>immediate satisfaction out of the deal. And I am the one that has to wait
>to get my turn.
>
>
If you feel like that then I sincerely apologize. I certainly do not
mean that and indeed one reason why I moved to Marseilles was that this
way I have a good excuse not supporting Italy in Ven. Mario is quite
mad at me for moving away from his homeland but he can hardly take it as
an offensive step.
In general I do not agree with your assesment. True, I do not do things
which I think are disadvantageous for me. But you surely see that for
example the diplomacy I invested into AT which brought you back into the
game and my talking Turkey into stabbing Rusia - while admittedly not
against my goals - served immediate satisfaction to you first and foremost.
And at the same time I will have to reverse the argument. I
acknowledged that you are not willing to let me to Rome. Fine, it is
your decision I certainly do not take offense at this. But you surely
understand that as long as the terms you dictate yield me no, as in zero
material gain, I will not beg for your friendship (strictly within the
game) just because it is nice to chat with you.
>I would have supported you into Rome this year, just as I said I would.
>
>But your actions directly affected my ability to negotiate and in part
>defend against the Turk.
>
>
I fail to see the logic here. If the two of us started finishing
Ven/Rom this year, then what do you think the Turk would have done? He
has been violently pro-Italian and the only reason he is moving on the
ION now is that I have been reluctant to engage Italy in a western
fight. If I had done so he would be busy already now collecting the
Balkan dots. And you are surely not saying are you that you would have
stabbed Turkey this year had you built two last winter... in which case
your taking of Venice is just in time. And I certainly do not
understand the logic which draws the line of interest between us runnign
between Rom/Ven in one season and one step further in the next one.
(Again, I do not want to argue about it I already acknowledged your
position concerning Rome).
>That is clearly incorrect. You just seem to only want to pick up the
>centers that I can get to. I would support you to Naples and Tunis and
>told you this some time ago, but you chose to support the Italian army in
>Venice and withdraw your fleets from the Med.
>
>
I think that NWG-NAO is quite enough justification to withdraw my navy
to MAO, and I am indeed sorry for that. But you have to admit that as
long as Turkey was sitting on the shores of BLA, there was absolutely
nothing my two fleets on the med could do helping any way of our fight
against Italy. He most easily could have kicked me and I would have
been lucky if I had kept Spain. And finally, my fleets are still there.
Until your recent messages I was contemplating a new F Mar raised this
winter and we clearly had a good chance to coordinate things both
agaisnt Italy as well as diplomatically preparing Turkey for a possible
stab. True, I am talking with him and trying to be as friendly as I
can, just as I did with Russia and Turkey when Russia was growing
unmanageable size. It could have been much more effective for you than
the guessing game which you are about to chose.
>See it that way if you want to. I have no idea why you fear my growth. It
>can do nothing but help your cause in the west.
>
I cannot agree more. I do not see why you think I fear your growth, on
the contrary. The end of this year you will have Venice, true a year
later. The only difference to what you had suggested is that I will not
be in Rome which is rather the other way around than you suggest.
tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> Actually I think we have alot to talk about.
I tend to agree.
> Well....Turkey is going to grow. I cant fight him alone,
> and until there is a point that I feel comfortable, I will
> work with him.
I think that this is a well-justified strategy. Probably
the most risky too but indeed the reward might justify the
size of the risk.
> He is offering me all of the boot. I dont believe him, but
> I am going to work with it until I have a better plan.
Well, one thing is clear: he does not want the boot. You
are not alone on the waiting list of people who Turkey
offered the boot but you are the closest so you might get it
indeed. The question is: what is he getting out of it?
He cannot take Tunis unless he is on Tys and he cannot get
to Tys unless he is in Naples. That leaves Warsaw as an
immediate candidate but what is he building for it? To be
safe from the growing concentration of your armies, he will
have to leave a token defense and even then it means plenty
of armies holding for many seasons.
> True. But you will only be doing it at sea, you wont see
> him on land for a very long time
I do not see what this have to do with the point I was
making, that is the fundamental difference between the
nature of my relationship to Turkey and you.
> > It is far from unavoidable that the two of us fight, and
> > I am still thinking hard to understand what gain you
> > expect from chosing this path instead of the one which
> > is more rewarding.
>
> How is it more rewarding for me?
Oh, naively I would think that you having France as an ally
does more good than an enemy. I would rather not spend the
time on spelling out the rewards in concrete terms, they are
quite obvious.
> You dont want me to get Italian dots, you want them for
> yourself.
I never said this. You are beginning to judge my actions on
your prejudices instead of working out our differences in a
constructive way.
> I can either work with the Turk. or fight the Turk....and
> right now he has position and size on me. Not much of a
> choice.
The choice is not between fighting or not fighting the Turk
but between fighting a 7-center Turk who is presently
opposed by the Italian fleets and a 9-center Turk without
that headache.
> Well....I have wondered why you fear my growth.
>
> If I get Venice and Rome, and you get Naples and Tunis, we
> can shut down the Turk. Which is what I have been angling
> for since we started talking.
I understand this very logical position and I hope that you
understand mine too. As long as Turkey has no enemy and
just pours his fleets to the west, any damage I do to Italy
without material gain (meaning a further southern fleet to
hold the position) just fuels the Turkish surge towards me.
> I dont understand why you seem to think that Italy needs
> to remain alive.
Because I want to see the balance of power on the eastern
mediterranean. Given three Italian fleets and three Turkish
ones, six units are tied down fighting each other. With his
final breath, Italy will throw his final dots to one of the
three of us while doing some damage out of spite. Granted,
there is 1/3 chance that I am the beneficiary but I strongly
feel that we could do better than that.
> I need enough units to protect myself and fight
> Turkey. The only place I can get those builds is Italy.
This is not quite true. Venice is surely a good SC to pick
up but Rome sucks up the army it takes it for defense.
> And I dont think you have any idea how much your
> supporting the Italian last fall screwed me.
Indeed, I probably do not have all the information I need to
judge that. And as I said, there were other arguments which
I had to consider and you surely do not take those into
account when judging my action. And of course I do not
blame you for that because you similarly do not have the
necessary information. But I do not usually find it a
rewarding strategy to follow up on grudges and devise
strategy based on spite.
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> I do take offense at your continually telling him to attack me.
I really would not mind getting this straight: that is to
make sure that you know what is coming from me and how much
is he making up.
I found two paragraphs in my archive which talk about you
and they are quite far from what you would call "continually
telling him to attack". And again if you considered regions
far from Switzerland, you realize that I am trying to get a
Russian unit back to the game which obviously is related to
my atlantic campaign rather than having to do with
AT-matters.
In any case, the most I can read from these two paragraph is
sweet chat and almost all the sentences are questions, but
you judge it yourself.
Tamas
/---------------------------------------------
| The only worry I see is that I have not realized that Austria is going
| up to seven this year. Usually I like to keep Austria (an ally) under
| six because the concentration of more units (armies in the Balkan) can
| get pretty unmanageable. Unfortunately he is also the one to pick up
| Italian dots fast once he puts an army in. Do you have a plan to
| circumvent these problems? Maybe Russia could be allowed to build a
| unit this turn, which would fight under your proxy? Just thinking
| aloud looking at the map more carefully than I did before the last turn.
\---------------------------------------------
/---------------------------------------------
| I am actually quite curious when things will happen on the
| east. Clearly Austria has no place in a draw which includes
| you which means that at some point you will have to stab.
| Naturally you will know the best time when to do that and
| what will be the strength of both of you, I am just having a
| great time guessing :-).
\---------------------------------------------
Message from France to Italy
Mario,
I have talked a lot with Austria today. I asked him to
support me to Rome next year which he plainly refused. That
and all the rest of his talk clearly suggest that it is
quite hard to split them. My understanding is that Turkey
is offering him the whole of Italy while the Sultan is
hoping to get as far as Iberia quickly.
I am having great difficulties with my diplomacy sending AT
against each other because apparently they forward my
messages to each other. At this point neither of them trust
me, you can safely count on me supporting you wherever
needed for a long time.
Austria said something he now needs to take Ven with a fleet
to make sure that he gets it. My gut feeling is that this
is misinformation but of course I cannot tell for sure.
I talked to Germany and I believe Mun-Kie is arranged. (At
least he tells me so). How is your talk with England? Dave
does not write me (not surprisingly).
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
I have said everything I could as far as generalities are
concerned. I started looking at the map and playing with
some thoughts. I have to say upfront that given that you
apparently share your mailbox with the Sultan, I realize
that I am hurting my diplomatic position unless you want to
actually consider cooperating with me. And finally, I am
now debating your arguments for the fun of it, it it is
indeed an entertaining excercise.
> There is little to nothing that I can do to prevent Turkey
> from getting 2 dots.
>
> And how do you plan to engineer that.
>
> You are kidding.....right??
No I am not kidding. At the same time I do not claim that
my suggestions are the best in any sense, although I'd like
to think that they are useful.
First. Venice is yours and Italy cannot do anything about
it. If presented with the alternative, he still however
have to make the choice: whether he accepts your control of
Venice trying to make the best out of it or going down hard
and fast under AT keeping the grudges. If that choice is
put forward and he considered it then there are clearly a
few ways to play it.
First, you will have to explain to me how is Turkey getting
two dots. I assume one might be Warsaw (although I never
dreamt of Austria ever allowing that), but which one is the
other? Rumania? Serbia? You cannot be that loyal.
A possible stab would look like this (I am not suggesting
it, etc...): Telling Turkey that he has to use Gre against
ION, then Tun S ION, Apu S ION, ION S Ser-Gre, Gal-War. Tri
S Tyr-Ven. That would give you two builds and if I were
Italy, I would certainly think that this price is worth
getting A fighting Turkey. If at the same time you happen
to pick up Warsaw because Turkey could be talked into StP
then you actually build three.
Granted, this is not easy to arrange but far from being
impossible. What is certain is that I do not share your
view that your options are limited to your current view
completely.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
>
> I am truly curious what he is telling you.
That you are continually asking him to attack me. If that isnt the case,
he is lying.
>
> >I know that it is just a matter of time.
> >
> >Both you and the Italian have been basically begging (the italian much
> >more than you) to attaakc the Turk and stem his growth.
> >
> >
> I do not think that I did anything like that. As I said in a recent
> message, I do not see a way to avoid F-T fight later in this game but I
> can easily see no F-A fight.
As can I, but I actually have to be strong enough to fight him.
Clearly there will be a stab at some
> point. You surely do not question that I would be quite sad to see if
> T's stab on A would find you unprepared leading to a similar situation
> to what happened with Russia.
That wont happen. That is why I am having these arguments over dots.
And wondering why people are keeping me out of them, and then moving all
thier untis away.
> >But you feel that its ok to expect me to do so, while limiting my
> >resources to do so.
> >
> >
> I do not see how I am limiting your resources. There was no prospect of
> you stabbing Turkey this year and you do get the Venice build in time.
That is where you are wrong. With an extra army I could keep my spaces
safe and the Russian would have kept 2 armies on the board.
> The other point is that there are parts of the board other than the
> Piedmont area which I have to pay attention to. You might have noticed
> that England stabbed me last year and it was only the matter of luck (my
> taking of Bel) that I could reverse it. Given that our spring
> negotiations concerning Venice failed,
Oh.....that is failure....offering me a center the previous fall, only to
ask for the center in the spring, and then defend the center in the
following fall.....
it was just logical to try to
> offer Italy something which might have a chance of keeping him away from
> me. And unfortunately I could not do any better because the Turk has
> been so reluctant to move close to the IONian for ages.
The Turk will be in the ION.
>
> In general I do not agree with your assesment. True, I do not do things
> which I think are disadvantageous for me. But you surely see that for
> example the diplomacy I invested into AT which brought you back into the
> game and my talking Turkey into stabbing Rusia - while admittedly not
> against my goals - served immediate satisfaction to you first and foremost.
You make a good point here, but I am now in the position of being between
a rock and a hard place with a much more skittish player than the Russian.
Hence...no suggestion that is not LOCK SOLID SAFE for Turkey is ever even
considered. He still doesnt trust me at all.
> And at the same time I will have to reverse the argument. I
> acknowledged that you are not willing to let me to Rome. Fine, it is
> your decision I certainly do not take offense at this. But you surely
> understand that as long as the terms you dictate yield me no, as in zero
> material gain, I will not beg for your friendship (strictly within the
> game) just because it is nice to chat with you.
So far....the only centers of Italy's that you will discuss with me are
ones that I can potentially take.
This makes me suspect of your motives.
I dont neccesarily care if you take Rome, if you are willing to put some
fleets in the Med.
I cant get Rome for at least 3 seasons, so if you can take it...please do.
> >I would have supported you into Rome this year, just as I said I would.
> >
> >But your actions directly affected my ability to negotiate and in part
> >defend against the Turk.
> >
> >
> I fail to see the logic here. If the two of us started finishing
> Ven/Rom this year, then what do you think the Turk would have done?
If you hadnt supported Venice last year, I would have one more army on the
board, and I wouldnt have to listen to the Turk dictate terms to me. Which
he is.
He
> has been violently pro-Italian and the only reason he is moving on the
> ION now is that I have been reluctant to engage Italy in a western
> fight.
No....He didnt move on Italy because he didnt want to fight you. And it
was his impression that you wanted to kill Italy.
If I had done so he would be busy already now collecting the
> Balkan dots. And you are surely not saying are you that you would have
> stabbed Turkey this year had you built two last winter... in which case
> your taking of Venice is just in time. And I certainly do not
> understand the logic which draws the line of interest between us runnign
> between Rom/Ven in one season and one step further in the next one.
> (Again, I do not want to argue about it I already acknowledged your
> position concerning Rome).
If I had 5 armies on the board, ie....I built 2 last winter; do you thik
he could be collecting Balkan dots.....I dont think so.
> >centers that I can get to. I would support you to Naples and Tunis and
> >told you this some time ago, but you chose to support the Italian army in
> >Venice and withdraw your fleets from the Med.
> I think that NWG-NAO is quite enough justification to withdraw my navy
> to MAO, and I am indeed sorry for that. But you have to admit that as
> long as Turkey was sitting on the shores of BLA, there was absolutely
> nothing my two fleets on the med could do helping any way of our fight
> against Italy. He most easily could have kicked me and I would have
> been lucky if I had kept Spain. And finally, my fleets are still there.
He has a fleet in Con and you have 1 fleet in Spain
You are not still there.
> Until your recent messages I was contemplating a new F Mar raised this
> winter and we clearly had a good chance to coordinate things both
> agaisnt Italy as well as diplomatically preparing Turkey for a possible
> stab.
Does thsi mean you wont be raising another fleet this winter.
And I will NEVER be able to talk the Turk into making a dangerous move.
We have WAYYYYYY too much history.
True, I am talking with him and trying to be as friendly as I
> can, just as I did with Russia and Turkey when Russia was growing
> unmanageable size. It could have been much more effective for you than
> the guessing game which you are about to chose.
Which guessing game is that.
> >See it that way if you want to. I have no idea why you fear my growth. It
> >can do nothing but help your cause in the west.
> >
> I cannot agree more. I do not see why you think I fear your growth, on
> the contrary. The end of this year you will have Venice, true a year
> later. The only difference to what you had suggested is that I will not
> be in Rome which is rather the other way around than you suggest.
And the Turk will have armies all the way around me, rather than having a
opne flank that I might expoloit
Andy
Message from Austria to France
> > Well....Turkey is going to grow. I cant fight him alone,
> > and until there is a point that I feel comfortable, I will
> > work with him.
>
> I think that this is a well-justified strategy. Probably
> the most risky too but indeed the reward might justify the
> size of the risk.
We shall see.
> > He is offering me all of the boot. I dont believe him, but
> > I am going to work with it until I have a better plan.
>
> Well, one thing is clear: he does not want the boot.
Well...I think he does.
You
> are not alone on the waiting list of people who Turkey
> offered the boot but you are the closest so you might get it
> indeed.
I think he is going to get it.
The question is: what is he getting out of it?
Warsaw.
> He cannot take Tunis unless he is on Tys and he cannot get
> to Tys unless he is in Naples. That leaves Warsaw as an
> immediate candidate but what is he building for it? To be
> safe from the growing concentration of your armies, he will
> have to leave a token defense and even then it means plenty
> of armies holding for many seasons.
He has all the armies he needs to keep me in check for the short term.
> > True. But you will only be doing it at sea, you wont see
> > him on land for a very long time
>
> I do not see what this have to do with the point I was
> making, that is the fundamental difference between the
> nature of my relationship to Turkey and you.
You can hold a stalemate line against him in the Med. And prevent him from
moving forward. I cannot do that.
> > I can either work with the Turk. or fight the Turk....and
> > right now he has position and size on me. Not much of a
> > choice.
>
> The choice is not between fighting or not fighting the Turk
> but between fighting a 7-center Turk who is presently
> opposed by the Italian fleets and a 9-center Turk without
> that headache.
By this logic I shouldnt attack the Italian at all.
>
> > Well....I have wondered why you fear my growth.
> >
> > If I get Venice and Rome, and you get Naples and Tunis, we
> > can shut down the Turk. Which is what I have been angling
> > for since we started talking.
>
> I understand this very logical position and I hope that you
> understand mine too. As long as Turkey has no enemy and
> just pours his fleets to the west, any damage I do to Italy
> without material gain (meaning a further southern fleet to
> hold the position) just fuels the Turkish surge towards me.
Yeah....that Turkish Surge...that hasnt gone to the ION in 3 turns.
>
> > I need enough units to protect myself and fight
> > Turkey. The only place I can get those builds is Italy.
>
> This is not quite true. Venice is surely a good SC to pick
> up but Rome sucks up the army it takes it for defense.
True.
> > And I dont think you have any idea how much your
> > supporting the Italian last fall screwed me.
>
> Indeed, I probably do not have all the information I need to
> judge that. And as I said, there were other arguments which
> I had to consider and you surely do not take those into
> account when judging my action. And of course I do not
> blame you for that because you similarly do not have the
> necessary information. But I do not usually find it a
> rewarding strategy to follow up on grudges and devise
> strategy based on spite.
Ok.....I can take Venice....
What are you offering me beyond that. Other than a fight with Turkey.
Spell it out for me....because all it looks like to me is a way to get me
into a fight with Turkey while you take the Italian dots.
Andy
Message from Austria to France
Tamas,
>
> I have said everything I could as far as generalities are
> concerned. I started looking at the map and playing with
> some thoughts. I have to say upfront that given that you
> apparently share your mailbox with the Sultan, I realize
> that I am hurting my diplomatic position unless you want to
> actually consider cooperating with me. And finally, I am
> now debating your arguments for the fun of it, it it is
> indeed an entertaining excercise.
I dont share anything with anyone. I dont pass on other peoples press.
PERIOD.
I want to cooperate with you. But every thing you suggest doesnt really
have an upside and creates alot of problems.
>
> > There is little to nothing that I can do to prevent Turkey
> > from getting 2 dots.
> >
> > And how do you plan to engineer that.
> >
> > You are kidding.....right??
>
> No I am not kidding. At the same time I do not claim that
> my suggestions are the best in any sense, although I'd like
> to think that they are useful.
I have 1 fleet. Explain how I can prevent the Turk from getting 2 Italian
dots.
> First. Venice is yours and Italy cannot do anything about
> it. If presented with the alternative, he still however
> have to make the choice: whether he accepts your control of
> Venice trying to make the best out of it or going down hard
> and fast under AT keeping the grudges. If that choice is
> put forward and he considered it then there are clearly a
> few ways to play it.
Right now its looking more and more like attacking Italy is not my best
option but I am pretty screwed one way or the other...so it doesnt really
matter.
Since I just dont seem to understand.....give me your views on what my
options are.
> First, you will have to explain to me how is Turkey getting
> two dots. I assume one might be Warsaw (although I never
> dreamt of Austria ever allowing that), but which one is the
> other? Rumania? Serbia? You cannot be that loyal.
You misunderstand, or your just taking this out of context on purpose.
I made the reference to 2 dots about Italy. There not being a way to keep
him from taking 2 dots.
He told me I could have Warsaw last season, now he is demanding it.
He says that since I am getting Venice, he must have Warsaw as he cant
allow me to build 2.
When I told him that I would prefer he kept his word he told me that if I
pushed the issue, he would just force Rumania. And since he can bounce me
in Warsaw and force Rumania I told him to take it.
> A possible stab would look like this (I am not suggesting
> it, etc...): Telling Turkey that he has to use Gre against
> ION, then Tun S ION, Apu S ION, ION S Ser-Gre, Gal-War. Tri
> S Tyr-Ven. That would give you two builds and if I were
> Italy, I would certainly think that this price is worth
> getting A fighting Turkey. If at the same time you happen
> to pick up Warsaw because Turkey could be talked into StP
> then you actually build three.
This stab has me one dotting 3 seperate powers.....and not being able to
build all my winnings.
Aside from the above description of the Warsaw situation, I dont think he
will go for it, but I will feel him out.
> Granted, this is not easy to arrange but far from being
> impossible. What is certain is that I do not share your
> view that your options are limited to your current view
> completely.
If you include the views of the Turk the chances go down drastically.
Andy
Message from Austria to France
>
> Andy,
>
> > I do take offense at your continually telling him to attack me.
>
> I really would not mind getting this straight: that is to
> make sure that you know what is coming from me and how much
> is he making up.
If this is the case, he is making alot of things us.
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> I want to cooperate with you. But every thing you suggest
> doesnt really have an upside and creates alot of problems.
I know but you can hardly expect me to be the one who
suggest that AT sweeps through Italy. I actually find that
this discussion have already proven to be _very_ useful. I
understand your problems with the Sultan much better and it
will help a lot if at some point I am to talk him into
something nasty.
I do not actually agree with the lot of problems. You might
recall that I have still not suggested that you attack
Turkey, but I do want to make sure that by going through
these you do not miss a possibly excellent opportunity. The
"problems" seem to be an asset, I think
> > No I am not kidding. At the same time I do not claim that
> > my suggestions are the best in any sense, although I'd like
> > to think that they are useful.
>
> I have 1 fleet. Explain how I can prevent the Turk from
> getting 2 Italian dots.
I am indeed sorry for the confusion. I seemed to infer from
your message that Turkey is picking up two dots this year
and not that he is picking up two out of Italy.
I am not sure how you can prevent Turkey picking up dots in
Italy. Certainly if you do not build another fleet and you
keep working with him then you cannot but in that case why
would you indeed? But if either of us takes Rome and if you
happen to build another fleet then I do not think that it is
hard to keep him out of Naples (you can safely assume that I
will do all I can not to let him to Tys). But another
alternative is keeping the Italian fleets alive, let them
fight and then the two of us stab Italy. Turkey certainly
would not be able to help him out of it.
> Right now its looking more and more like attacking Italy
> is not my best option but I am pretty screwed one way or
> the other...so it doesnt really matter.
I think that you must take Venice, that's a no-brainer.
_If_ you can sell that to Mario in such a way that he
accepts the situation, I do not even know what you are
thinking about. That's clearly a huge winner of the game.
Of course it is not guaranteed that he buys it although I
would think that he is not really in a position to refuse.
> Since I just dont seem to understand.....give me your
> views on what my options are.
??? Is not this what we have been discussion all along ???
> He told me I could have Warsaw last season, now he is
> demanding it. He says that since I am getting Venice, he
> must have Warsaw as he cant allow me to build 2.
>
> When I told him that I would prefer he kept his word he
> told me that if I pushed the issue, he would just force
> Rumania. And since he can bounce me in Warsaw and force
> Rumania I told him to take it.
This is bad news indeed. I will try to see about this. I
really would love to see a bounce in Warsaw and a Russian
army raised there... No, this is not a suggestion although
it would be quite good for you too.
> > A possible stab would look like this (I am not suggesting
> > it, etc...): Telling Turkey that he has to use Gre against
> > ION, then Tun S ION, Apu S ION, ION S Ser-Gre, Gal-War. Tri
> > S Tyr-Ven. That would give you two builds and if I were
> > Italy, I would certainly think that this price is worth
> > getting A fighting Turkey. If at the same time you happen
> > to pick up Warsaw because Turkey could be talked into StP
> > then you actually build three.
>
> This stab has me one dotting 3 seperate powers.....and not
> being able to build all my winnings.
I really do not think you should complain for not being able
to raise three new units just because of the lack of home
SC's. At the same time I cannot see why you could not,
taking Ven with Tri seems to me one possible way of freeing
up your home SC's. As for the three powers, it has to be
seen in context. Clearly Russia is not a concern. The
whole thing works only if you can get to terms with Italy
which leaves a single power who you disappoint. That's not
that bad.
> > Granted, this is not easy to arrange but far from being
> > impossible. What is certain is that I do not share your
> > view that your options are limited to your current view
> > completely.
>
> If you include the views of the Turk the chances go down
> drastically.
I have not had that bad experience with the Sultan, sorry to
hear your problems. But then the question is how will the
situation be better in two years after Turkey growing
further? He certainly will not change his "views" in the
process or do you expect him to do so?
Thanks for your reflection on my press to Turkey. Indeed,
probably he is making up things. I should double check the
information I am getting from him.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> > I want to cooperate with you. But every thing you suggest
> > doesnt really have an upside and creates alot of problems.
>
> I know but you can hardly expect me to be the one who
> suggest that AT sweeps through Italy. I actually find that
> this discussion have already proven to be _very_ useful. I
> understand your problems with the Sultan much better and it
> will help a lot if at some point I am to talk him into
> something nasty.
No, I cant.
> I do not actually agree with the lot of problems. You might
> recall that I have still not suggested that you attack
> Turkey, but I do want to make sure that by going through
> these you do not miss a possibly excellent opportunity. The
> "problems" seem to be an asset, I think
Im not sure if I would use the word asset.
> > > No I am not kidding. At the same time I do not claim that
> > > my suggestions are the best in any sense, although I'd like
> > > to think that they are useful.
> >
> > I have 1 fleet. Explain how I can prevent the Turk from
> > getting 2 Italian dots.
>
> I am indeed sorry for the confusion. I seemed to infer from
> your message that Turkey is picking up two dots this year
> and not that he is picking up two out of Italy.
Sorry about that.
> I am not sure how you can prevent Turkey picking up dots in
> Italy. Certainly if you do not build another fleet and you
> keep working with him then you cannot but in that case why
> would you indeed? But if either of us takes Rome and if you
> happen to build another fleet then I do not think that it is
> hard to keep him out of Naples (you can safely assume that I
> will do all I can not to let him to Tys). But another
> alternative is keeping the Italian fleets alive, let them
> fight and then the two of us stab Italy. Turkey certainly
> would not be able to help him out of it.
Good points
> > Right now its looking more and more like attacking Italy
> > is not my best option but I am pretty screwed one way or
> > the other...so it doesnt really matter.
>
> I think that you must take Venice, that's a no-brainer.
I know.
> _If_ you can sell that to Mario in such a way that he
> accepts the situation, I do not even know what you are
> thinking about. That's clearly a huge winner of the game.
> Of course it is not guaranteed that he buys it although I
> would think that he is not really in a position to refuse.
True.
> > When I told him that I would prefer he kept his word he
> > told me that if I pushed the issue, he would just force
> > Rumania. And since he can bounce me in Warsaw and force
> > Rumania I told him to take it.
>
> This is bad news indeed. I will try to see about this. I
> really would love to see a bounce in Warsaw and a Russian
> army raised there... No, this is not a suggestion although
> it would be quite good for you too.
I know. I have thought about it.
> > > A possible stab would look like this (I am not suggesting
> > > it, etc...): Telling Turkey that he has to use Gre against
> > > ION, then Tun S ION, Apu S ION, ION S Ser-Gre, Gal-War. Tri
> > > S Tyr-Ven. That would give you two builds and if I were
> > > Italy, I would certainly think that this price is worth
> > > getting A fighting Turkey. If at the same time you happen
> > > to pick up Warsaw because Turkey could be talked into StP
> > > then you actually build three.
> >
> > This stab has me one dotting 3 seperate powers.....and not
> > being able to build all my winnings.
>
> I really do not think you should complain for not being able
> to raise three new units just because of the lack of home
> SC's.
VERY good point.
At the same time I cannot see why you could not,
> taking Ven with Tri seems to me one possible way of freeing
> up your home SC's.
I cant guarantee Venice without taking it with the fleet.
As for the three powers, it has to be
> seen in context. Clearly Russia is not a concern. The
> whole thing works only if you can get to terms with Italy
> which leaves a single power who you disappoint. That's not
> that bad.
>
True.
> > > Granted, this is not easy to arrange but far from being
> > > impossible. What is certain is that I do not share your
> > > view that your options are limited to your current view
> > > completely.
> >
> > If you include the views of the Turk the chances go down
> > drastically.
>
take care
Andy
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> Apparently I got away with my stab on the island, I have kept my
> fingers crossed because really my whole game depended on it.
Yes, you once again have a free attack on Lvp. Will you take it,
this time?
> I am trying to talk Turkey into guaranteeing Warsaw for you so that
> you can build an army which might help contain Austria. I have no
> idea if that helps.
Well, it matches what I've been saying to him. The question is will
Austria use Gal to attack War, or defend Rum?
> As far as the north is concerned, I welcome your taking of Norway
> and I sincerely hope that you can keep it in the fall. Presently it looks
> like I am interested in England taking off as many pieces as possible
> this turn. Any thoughts?
Bel S Kiel - Hol, maybe?
Nicky.
Message from France to all
Dear All,
I will be (almost) without internet connection after Friday
4:00 GMT until Wednesday morning GMT. I will probably be
able to submit my retreat orders. In any case, I want to
point out that I will be out of touch during the last few
hours before the deadline - which seems to be the busiest
time for press in this game. If you need to talk to me
before this turn processes, please take it into account.
Thanks,
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
Tamas,
> I will be (almost) without internet connection after Friday
> 4:00 GMT until Wednesday morning GMT. I will probably be
> able to submit my retreat orders. In any case, I want to
> point out that I will be out of touch during the last few
> hours before the deadline - which seems to be the busiest
> time for press in this game. If you need to talk to me
> before this turn processes, please take it into account.
Thanks for the heads up.
Be safe in your travels.
Andy
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
> Yes, you once again have a free attack on Lvp. Will you
> take it, this time?
I believe so.
> Well, it matches what I've been saying to him. The
> question is will Austria use Gal to attack War, or defend
> Rum?
The situation is very tricky. I have not heard from the
Sultan recently but I exchanged about ten messages with
Austria yesterday. As far as I can tell, he would be
willing to let you keep Warsaw. Also your press and the
last Turkish press does not show any evidence that Turkey
would not be willing to do that either.
But, what I am hearing is the following. Warsaw had been
promised to Austria and Turkey changed his mind, telling him
that he wants War instead because A gets Ven. He blackmails
Austria, saying that if he is not allowed to take Warsaw
then he will force Rumania. It is quite possible that in
fact Turkey wants Austria to stay out of War, this way
letting you keep it. OTOH if Austria wants to let you have
War then he probably imagines doing it by bouncing the Turk
out.
This means that although both of them might want to let you
have it, they might want to do it in an incompatible way and
you can easily lose it despite the good intentions of both
of them if they guess wrong :-(.
Unfortunately it seems impossible to sort this out with a
joint conversation with them because both want your newly
built army help against the other...
I expect to keep talking to Austria and hopefully to the
Sultan too, so do tell me what I should know to steer them
into the right direction.
> Bel S Kiel - Hol, maybe?
That is one of the options indeed. I'd like to think that I
can trust Italy this turn and the question is how far I can
get with my negotiation with Germany.
Do you think you will keep Norway? And StP? If you do keep
both and the miracle happens that you keep Warsaw, then I
honestly can see a very good chance of you coming back to
the game. I am being serious.
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Dear Sultan,
Any thoughts? Austria? Italy? Russia?
I am trying to plan my moves for the future and have started
thinking about the line which we should approach. As far as
I am concerned I would be most happy with a final line which
does not suck up too many units. A possible position in the
Med for me would be: Mar S Lyo, Wes S Lyo, Naf S Tun. This
needs only four units on my side and you can establish your
final position holding the whole of Italy. Would you be
happy with that or do you have another suggestion?
Tamas
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> Do you think you will keep Norway? And StP?
I think so... Germany doesn't really have anything better to do with
F Swe than support me in Nwy, and I don't see ET agreeing to
support the other to StP. Turkey has better options for Mos.
> If you do keep both and the miracle happens that you keep Warsaw,
Yeah, that's going to be the dice-roll. It's clear to me that Austria is
better off defending Rum, and Turkey is better off moving Mos-Ukr
to force Rum next year if he doesn't get it this year, but the Turk and
I have such different views of "good strategy", I can't be sure of
what he'll do.
Nicky.
Message from France to Russia
Nikcy,
> I think so... Germany doesn't really have anything better
> to do with F Swe than support me in Nwy, and I don't see
> ET agreeing to support the other to StP. Turkey has
> better options for Mos.
This is good to hear. As far as I know England and Turkey
have not exchanged a single message in this game. Have you
received anything from Dave after the spring? If things
work out well for you this year and indeed you will keep
helping me then I am pretty sure that you outlive both
England and Germany.
> > If you do keep both and the miracle happens that you
> > keep Warsaw,
>
> Yeah, that's going to be the dice-roll.
Right, but you are not rolling the dice. Kind of reassuring
that it is not you who screws it up :-)
> but the Turk and I have such different views of "good
> strategy", I can't be sure of what he'll do.
Very interesting. These are almost the same words as what
Austria is saying about the Turk.
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Mario,
Any news about (1) Kiel? (2) the South?
I have been talking a lot with Austria, nothing from
Turkey. There might be something happening between them
after all although it is hard to say whether we will see it
this season or not.
Let me know how far you have gotten.
Best,
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
Heard from Austria - he says he has to take Venice but wants to be my
friend. Uhhh okay? I plan on holding or moving east with my fleets - no
worries. I"d appreciate your fleet holding for nwo
As for Kiel haven't heard from England yet, but you've got Mun-Kie, Ruh S
Bel-Hol on tap? If so, that should work out for the best (hopefully)
Message from Turkey to all
sorry for the delays, hopefully will be back in touch soon. (tonight
at the latest)
Message from France to Italy
Mario,
> Heard from Austria - he says he has to take Venice but
> wants to be my friend. Uhhh okay?
I do not think that it is a disaster. If that is the price
of him attacking the Sultan it might pay off after all. And
as soon as they are at each other's throat we can easily
retake Ven.
> As for Kiel haven't heard from England yet, but you've got
> Mun-Kie, Ruh S Bel-Hol on tap? If so, that should work
> out for the best (hopefully)
I believe that Mun-Kie is a done deal. Germany wants Bel S
Ruh-Hol though pointing out that the spring failure might
happen again. I really do not mind either way, but I did
argue against Ruh-Hol, so this thing is somewhat up in the
air. Unless you have strong feelings against Germany taking
Hol, I might settle for it if he seems too hard-headed.
What say you?
Tamas
Message from Germany to France
Tamas:
I see your point about Holland. Naturally, the more centers I can get, the
better, but I suppose it makes more sense to give to someone who can use it in
the near term, especially with the immediate need we have to get you into the
Mediterranean before Turkey and/or Austria break out.
I think you're right about Italy -- he might bounce around to another one of my
centers, but he'll ultimately have to disband when Venice falls. Makes the
occupation of Kiel totally useless in the end, but I guess my reasoning just
didn't hit home with him. At least it'll be back in my hands soon.
So, to confirm, I'll support Bel - Hol, and I'll expect your support for Nth -
Lon.
I have some other larger strategic thoughts that I've been contemplating, but I
don't have a map in front of my right now, and I wanted to get back to you
about the moves sooner rather than later. I will send more thoughts later today
or early tomorrow.
Kaiser Erik
Message from France to Germany
Hi Erik,
> So, to confirm, I'll support Bel - Hol, and I'll expect
> your support for Nth - Lon.
Yes, so ordered.
> I have some other larger strategic thoughts that I've been
> contemplating, but I don't have a map in front of my right
> now, and I wanted to get back to you about the moves
> sooner rather than later. I will send more thoughts later
> today or early tomorrow.
I am absolutely interested in discussing the larger
strategic picture and am looking forward to your thoughts.
You must realize that you are the only power on the board
whom I have civilized contact with - the rest is either
enemy or do not appreciate cross-board talk - therefore I am
quite hungry for some deep chat with you.
Please try to send whatever you want today. I will make the
effort to reply especially if it arrives before midnight
GMT. As I said in my broadcast, I will be gone by 4:00 PM
the latest tomorrow afternoon (GMT) and possibly before that
time.
Best regards,
Tamas
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> Have you received anything from Dave after the spring?
I sent him a note about his retreat, but unfortunately didn't get it out
until after the retreat had processed. His response was basically,
"Too late."
> > but the Turk and I have such different views of "good
> > strategy", I can't be sure of what he'll do.
>
> Very interesting. These are almost the same words as what
> Austria is saying about the Turk.
Oh, that's funny! I sent a letter to Austria last night discussing what I
thought I would do in his position, and he accused me of being fed
information by other Powers, since I had essentially duplicated
letters he had sent to you and Turkey. I replied that I was unaware
that he'd been writing to anyone, (I was) and that the real explanation
was probably that he and I have similarly "aggressive" styles, and are
both good tacticians, so we just reached the same conclusion. I hope
I get to build that Army, so I can put my ability to get inside his head
to good use. ;^}
Nicky.
Message from Germany to France
Tamas:
Well, if I were you, I'd order A Mar back to Piedmont, and leave Mar
open for a build. When I'm done taking London, send F Eng south as
quickly as you can, and get F Spa - Wes. Italy is more or less a goner,
even if Turkey stabs Austria (which looks unlikely until after Italy has
been gobbled up altogether. Ion and Venice are lost to A/T for certain
in the fall; Nap / Tun could be gone next year.
As for me, I need to keep Russia alive for long enough to keep the Turk
occupied in St. Petersburg. A/T is about two seasons from having forces
in a position to cause me big headaches, and the more ground I can gain
in the short term, the better. I can take Norway when it looks like
Russia will fall, and then I can head east toward Moscow / Warsaw / etc.
Kaiser Erik
Message from France to Germany
Erik,
> Well, if I were you, I'd order A Mar back to Piedmont, and
> leave Mar open for a build. When I'm done taking London,
> send F Eng south as quickly as you can, and get F Spa -
> Wes. Italy is more or less a goner, even if Turkey stabs
> Austria (which looks unlikely until after Italy has been
> gobbled up altogether. Ion and Venice are lost to A/T for
> certain in the fall; Nap / Tun could be gone next year.
>
> As for me, I need to keep Russia alive for long enough to
> keep the Turk occupied in St. Petersburg. A/T is about two
> seasons from having forces in a position to cause me big
> headaches, and the more ground I can gain in the short
> term, the better. I can take Norway when it looks like
> Russia will fall, and then I can head east toward Moscow /
> Warsaw / etc.
I was prepared for a nice chat but after these two paragraph
I can only say this: I agree with every single point you
make. In fact, if I were to write you about the picture
first, you would have gotten an identical message.
Very promising!
Tamas
Message from Turkey to France
>
>I am in a somewhat unfortunate situation, I would love to further
>discuss things with you but I am not sure what the most practical way
>would be to do that. As long as the press I send gets back to me via
>F->T->A->F
????? I've not said a single word to Austria about you. I've barely
addressed my immediate concerns with Austria. I don't need to point
out that Austria is an excellent player (he went from dead to 5,6 or
7 now)....
> I could just address them to myself.
>
>Honestly, I have to tell you that I am not interested in a three- or
>more-way draw including Austria. I really would appreciate to know your
>view on the subject.
I'm sort of ambivalent on the subject. I am kind of waiting for you
to follow through with moves on the board.
i'm moving against Italy, you've necessarily moved away from
supporting itlay (and thus allowing Austria a sure build)..something
which I have to deal with now WRT to Warsaw. So i don't see how you
can,in essence, give Austria a build and then want me to clamp down
on his? this may be a little bit unfair, but that is the way it
looks from my vantage point.
>
>I truly think that my past history (see your stab on Russia or the FAT
>arrangement) justify that I can be straight with, for one thing you can
>be sure that I have never passed on anything (and will not) which is
>sent to me.
i don't pass press on from one country to another. I'm not that
clever of a player, and not a good enough liar to carry it off. I
don't see the point in getting in the slippery slope of that kind of
discussion.
So, I think that we can talk a lot about anything, but ultimately I
will judge you and your strength/partner in a draw on what happens on
the board. I am a strong power, you and Austria appear to be strong
too...at least if i were looking at the board from the outside, my
top three choices of countries would be you, me, and Austria...pretty
much in that order. So are you proposing a 2 way draw if you don't
want Austria around?
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
> ????? I've not said a single word to Austria about
> you. I've barely addressed my immediate concerns with
> Austria. I don't need to point out that Austria is an
> excellent player (he went from dead to 5,6 or 7 now)....
Indeed, I am beginning to see that I misjudged the situation
and apologize for that. I went into a discussion with
Austria and at some point he said that he will not talk to
me any further because you forward him my messages and he
knows just too well what we are talking about. At first it
looked credible and I wrote you my message without much
thinking. Later indeed I realize that this is probably
something he made up. Pretty good job I have to admit.
> i'm moving against Italy, you've necessarily moved away
> from supporting itlay (and thus allowing Austria a sure
> build)..something which I have to deal with now WRT to
> Warsaw.
This is a chicken-egg problem I am afraid. I have asked you
every single season during the past two years to hit ION,
without which keeping my two southern fleets in the med is a
waste of resources. I am not blaming you at all, just
trying to point out that there is no obvious evil or angel
in this situation. At the same time I am afraid I indeed
needed the fleet which I withdrew. I was stabbed by
England, true it failed after all but there was plenty of
luck in it.
> So i don't see how you can,in essence, give Austria a
> build and then want me to clamp down on his? this may be
> a little bit unfair, but that is the way it looks from my
> vantage point.
Hard to do much good, is not it? If I am supporting Italy
in Ven then I am violating our anti-I agreement and if I am
not supporting him then I am "giving a build" to your enemy
(or ally?). I actually think that it worked pretty well
altogether. I do not want Italy to be strong and I did slow
down Austria.
> i don't pass press on from one country to another. I'm not
> that clever of a player, and not a good enough liar to
> carry it off. I don't see the point in getting in the
> slippery slope of that kind of discussion.
I agree and I apologize again.
> So, I think that we can talk a lot about anything, but
> ultimately I will judge you and your strength/partner in a
> draw on what happens on the board. I am a strong power,
> you and Austria appear to be strong too...at least if i
> were looking at the board from the outside, my top three
> choices of countries would be you, me, and
> Austria...pretty much in that order. So are you proposing
> a 2 way draw if you don't want Austria around?
There is no 3-way ATF draw. Simply there is no such thing.
Equal division is out of question because of the position of
A and T, so the only miniscule chance is a stop-the-leader
position. But I can stop you at 17 myself and Austria is
quite remote from getting into the driver's seat. That
leaves us with AT stopping the French solo bid. This is
possible but as I said I am not interested in this 3WD,
therefore I will make sure that you can safely eliminate
Austria without the fear of me stealing a 18th center. But
this is way too remote and in fact I see absolutely no solo
chances for myself. I do see you as a solo threat within
two years and I will use this coming two years trying to
match your size, of course working you closely because we
are fighting for the same goal.
In my eyes a 2-way draw is a testament of an excellent
gameplan execution. Achieving a solo is hard and great and
of course both of us want it. This makes securing the 2-way
even more challenging and indeed just as satisfying
eventually. (You can see that I am not talking abot
carebear 2WD at all). Yes, I want a two-way ending with
France and Turkey and yes, I will do everything I can to
achieve that goal.
What happens to Warsaw?
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
> ????? I've not said a single word to Austria about
> you. I've barely addressed my immediate concerns with
> Austria. I don't need to point out that Austria is an
> excellent player (he went from dead to 5,6 or 7 now)....
Ok, it is clear now. I have thought for a long time that
Germany is the biggest liar among the players but I have to
take this back. If it were not for the good relationship we
established in the beginning, Austria would make a complete
fool of both of us now.
Take care,
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
Tamas,
Hopefully you get this before you go unavailable. I apologize for writing
again so late to the deadline but hey as you point out in this game that
seems to be the way things go...
I have talked to England and hopefully things will go okay for us on that
tip. Haven't heard from him but if he hasn't gone abandoned I think he'll
agree to it.
I don't know if AT will attack each other but hopefully. I plan on making
some sort of moves with my fleets. Maybe I'll just support Ion, or maybe
I'll support myself to Adr to try and retake VEnice next year. But I
reiterate I will not move west and again ask you not to move into the Med
with your fleet
Anything else?
Austria: Fleet Adriatic Sea → Apulia (*bounce, destroyed*)
Austria: Army Galicia → Warsaw (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Serbia → Albania
Austria: Army Trieste SUPPORT Army Tyrolia → Venice
Austria: Army Tyrolia → Venice
England: Fleet Barents Sea → St Petersburg (north coast) (*bounce*)
England: Fleet Edinburgh → Yorkshire
England: Fleet Holland → Kiel (*bounce, dislodged*)
England: Army London HOLD (*dislodged*)
England: Fleet Norwegian Sea → North Atlantic Ocean
France: Fleet Belgium → Holland
France: Army Burgundy → Belgium
France: Fleet English Channel SUPPORT German Fleet North Sea → London
France: Army Marseilles → Piedmont
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) → Western Mediterranean
France: Army Wales → Liverpool
Germany: Army Munich → Kiel (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet North Sea → London
Germany: Army Ruhr SUPPORT French Fleet Belgium → Holland
Germany: Fleet Sweden SUPPORT Russian Fleet Norway
Italy: Fleet Apulia SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea → Adriatic Sea
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Adriatic Sea
Italy: Army Kiel → Berlin
Italy: Fleet Tunis → Ionian Sea (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Venice HOLD (*dislodged*)
Russia: Fleet Gulf of Bothnia → St Petersburg (south coast) (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Norway SUPPORT German Fleet Sweden
Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea SUPPORT Fleet Greece
Turkey: Army Bulgaria → Rumania
Turkey: Fleet Constantinople → Bulgaria (south coast)
Turkey: Fleet Eastern Mediterranean → Ionian Sea (*bounce*)
Turkey: Fleet Greece SUPPORT Fleet Constantinople → Bulgaria (south coast)
Turkey: Army Moscow → Warsaw (*bounce*)
Turkey: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Bulgaria → Rumania
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