|
|
Message from France to Turkey
Dear Sultan,
Well, I am truly sorry that we rejected the plan to which your original
comment was "i like all of this". I have to face it: I was not successful
in convincing you that your worries which came up afterwards are not
well-founded. I think that my mistake was that I considered it most
obvious that my plan brings infinitely increased security for Turkey. I
guess that if I did not propose the plan originally, you would have found
it yourself and would not have thought about possible French
doublethoughts. I have to say it again at the same time that I very much
enjoyed the debate and truly hope that we shall have the opportunity to
stretch arms again, with better results.
I want to make a short remark though. I acknowledged your final say in
whatever we do and you could again accomplish a succesful all-hold season
:-). I also said that I do not mind if you attack me with Italy as hard
as you wish, as you did and I have to admit that the plan was smart,
counting on a possible mistake on my part. I bet it was Italy's plan,
because you would have known that it would fail as I had told you very
clearly that I am keeping my line closed. The only question which remains
and I fail to understand: why on earth are you doing this? I mean, you
cannot possibly think that what you are doing with A and I is _any_ less
risky than what I proposed???
Austria is building a unit (remember, you asked me to let him keep Mun)
which has no use in the northern line, already A Tyr is not needed. Italy
is free to use all his four units for defense because you are forcing me
to hold-and-support with the minimal set of my units in place. And then I
have not talked about what would happen to you if I pulled back to Por S
Spa, F Mao. Brrrr :-)
Finally, let me come back to the Convoy and your suggestion that we do it
after the fall if Austria can keep Munich. As I had told you, with the
loss of Pie this is hardly doable, but I did not want to rule it out, that
is why I did not let A Pie die. I am not sure if it can be done or not,
maybe yes. In any case, the ball is still in your court.
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Hi Dan,
Nice plan, could have been disastrous for me.
Ok so now I moved back one step. I think I can count on keeping Kie,
which means a sure build. That means that your general suggestion is a
distinct possibility for the fall, since F Bre closes the line again if
needed because I happen to misorder.
I have never in my life seen a Turkish convoy to Apu followed by three
hold orders. Can hardly wait to read the press archive, I must learn
how to do _this_.
Best,
Tamas
Message from Turkey to France
Yeah, so my offer right now is that we both get STP and TUN at the same time.
I would prefer Tunis unless you can convince me I can hold STP more
easily from you. Then at the same time I can attack Italy.
Otherwise we might just start looking at a 5 WD (or 4 way if you can
eliminate russia)
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
Having looked at the map, there is one more possibility. (Clearly trading
Tun for StP will not work because StP is in your control for the rest of
the game and I cannot get anywhere near if I am to hold Austria.) There
is one more chance for fixing Tun/StP nicely:
ION S Mar-LYO-WES-Tun
Mos-StP.
I can fix that you get in. Russia lives exactly as long as I let him live
and I can talk him into letting StP empty, especially after your succesful
splitting of AR. In any case, if you want this, I will act and will know
for sure whether it succeeds or not (Russia has no reason to lie about
this).
T
Message from France to Russia
Tzar,
Are you interested in chatting? There is a kind of plan and would be
interesting to discuss, it also involves you. I also want to do it in
complete secret, I guess that is no problem?
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
> Yeah, so my offer right now is that we both get STP and TUN at the same
> time.
I just sent you something exactly along these lines.
> I would prefer Tunis unless you can convince me I can hold STP more
> easily from you. Then at the same time I can attack Italy.
I do not have forces to bring there and the fact that all my units are
miles away gives you a de facto DMZ on my part. I cannot do anything
tricky without advertising it many moves ahead. But in any case I have
run out of supply. If A Mar gets to Tun, then a new army is needed there,
the rest of my force is tied down against Austria.
I have actually said already most of my arguments. One more thing is that
if we were to try the more risky French StP, that is almost completely
incompatible with my 2WD dream because you will surely be in StP soon
(especially if I kill Russia), which means that my 17th center would come
from you, but that's impossible because then you have already won!
> Otherwise we might just start looking at a 5 WD (or 4 way if you can
> eliminate russia)
What makes you think that the powers alive would all set draw? Even if
the two of us wanted to (I do not), I have the strongest doubts that a SET
DRAW would pass.
T
Message from Turkey to France
>
>
>ION S Mar-LYO-WES-Tun
>Mos-StP.
I will do this deal.
But of course how do i know that you won't lie to me?
>
>> I would prefer Tunis unless you can convince me I can hold STP more
>> easily from you. Then at the same time I can attack Italy.
>
>I do not have forces to bring there and the fact that all my units are
>miles away gives you a de facto DMZ on my part.
How nice of you!
> > Otherwise we might just start looking at a 5 WD (or 4 way if you can
>> eliminate russia)
>
>What makes you think that the powers alive would all set draw? Even if
>the two of us wanted to (I do not), I have the strongest doubts that a SET
DRAW would pass.
I don't know...we could find out.
Message from France to Turkey
> >ION S Mar-LYO-WES-Tun
> >Mos-StP.
>
> I will do this deal.
>
> But of course how do i know that you won't lie to me?
And how do I know that you won't lie to me? Two things: past experience
and trusting that neither of us fights against our own interest. I do not
remember you telling me a single lie in this game concerning orders and I
am pretty sure I never lied to you.
See the discussion past season. One of your arguments against the convoy
plan was when you showed me an IF stab on you in the spring. Well, with
the orders you eventually chose, and IF move on you would have been
devastating for you. If you had accepted my suggestion, you would have
risked less because I would have been highly motivated not to do it.
Still, you did not defend against an IF stab, why? Because you have seen
me playing and you know too well that I do not go for stupid short-term
gains when I can accomplish big if I am patient. Have I received Italian
offers against T recently? Plenty. But I know that it will not lead to
anything better than a 3WD or 4WD. I cannot win, unfortunately I already
know it well. Maybe a 3WD is the most likely outcome indeed. But as long
as I see the slightest chance for the 2WD, I will not be as foolish as to
do a single thing against it.
You can tell me why _you_ will not lie to me, but I do not expect anything
earthbreaking. You want to kill Italy, you do not want to risk wandering
Italian units and you know that if you do not assume carebear France then
after the fall you _might_ face 5-6 foreign fleets which you cannot hold
if I were to accept an Italian offer.
Tamas
Message from France to France
Observers,
I guess there is not much explanation needed here. I am sorry for
Germany's demise, he could have been useful for some more time.
My discussion with Turkey is very interesting/exciting. I never in my
dreams thought that he would let me into Tunis. Although he claims to
have read about stalemate lines, he surely does know what will happen
after I take Tunis. Tunis is worth _anything_ for me.
If I am in Tunis, there are several ways to play from there. My control
of Swe/Nor/StP is already undebatable on the long run (this is another
mistake of his). Munich is held well by Austria but all the balkans and
what's around is empty, so anything can happen there. I could pretend to
play for the 2WD, let Turkey collect everything while I take Mun and Ber,
then after 17-17 I simply sail to StP.
Another option is the south. As far as I know, there is no eastern line
which holds all the Italian centers, which means that with patience Rome
or Venice might be possible. I might have to swap A Tun for F Tun but I
find it unlikely that Turkey will put a supported attack on Tun every
season from now on. Of course, some Italian help is on the cards too, if
only as a defense against the Sultan after the fall. The western line is
quite hard to set up because that again includes all Italian centers but
it might not be necessary after all. Also, after the Turkish stab on
Italy, the route to Pie will likely be open again, which puts Austrian
Munich at risk.
In any case, there will be many new options. I think that already a stab
on the eastern side (whoever hits whom) would open up the game somewhat
but this is much more promising. It is also good to strengthen Turkey
because AI are too smart and they might be able to kill Turkey without
letting me through.
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
I don't know Tamas - Turkey's talking about a 5-way draw here. Coming
from my perspective, I think that's about as good as a result as I'm going
to get here. Maybe I should just take that...
Message from Master to all
Players,
I'm extending the deadline per a player's request.
Greg, GM
Comments
greg@spencersoft.com as Master set the deadline
for game 'comments' to Wed May 28 2003 23:30:00 -0500.
Grace period deadline advanced to Mon Jun 02 2003 23:30:00 -0500.
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
I really need to talk to you, preferably not in the last moment.
Tamas
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> I really need to talk to you, preferably not in the last moment.
Please do. I responded favorably to your note of Friday
afternoon, and have been waiting for you to respond since
then.
Nicky.
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
> Please do. I responded favorably to your note of Friday
> afternoon, and have been waiting for you to respond since
> then.
I have not received a thing.
Ok, let me then talk first. There is some very intensive
discussion going on in the south between various parties. I
do not know how much you know about what's going on, I for
one know almost nothing about things which Austria is
involved in but it appears that there is a kind of silence
before the storm.
I have a plan now (again) and I think that if it flies then
my solo chances go up (considerably above 50%). At this
point I am quite pessimistic about cutting Turkey out of a
draw (Italy does not seem that interested any more and I am
not sure about Austria). At the same time, I do not think
that the two of us can further advance in the north in the
present situation.
I am most confident that my plan has high solo chances and I
am sure you would like it. The only drawback is that I must
as you to do a sacrifice: I need to get Turkish A Mos to StP
the coming fall. As a minimal program (based on our
excellent history), I want to ask you to tell me definitely
whether you will do this for me or not.
Apart from this my continued offer is the same. Your
centers will be the last which I pick up when it comes to
that. You can be in Nor and Fin without any danger and in
fact, I am confident that you can easily retake StP even
next year if you want to. But I really would like Turkey
taking it now. And I really, really want Austria/Italy not
know about it.
What say you?
Tamas
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
>
> I have not received a thing.
*blush* I see now that I typoed "Press to R" for "Press to F"
in my reply. It came to me without a problem, though. ;-)
> There is some very intensive discussion going on in the south
If you say so.
> I do not know how much you know about what's going on,
Nothing. I haven't gotten much from the south, or anything
sincere, since I got my PC working again.
> I am most confident that my plan has high solo chances and I
> am sure you would like it. The only drawback is that I must
> as you to do a sacrifice: I need to get Turkish A Mos to StP
> the coming fall.
As in this turn? What makes you think Turkey would order
Mos-StP this turn when it risks StP S Lvn-Mos succeeding?
How does Mos-StP increase your Solo chances, anyway?
> I want to ask you to tell me definitely
> whether you will do this for me or not.
Not without some explanation of what you believe it will
accomplish, and why you think it will work. At this point,
I'd much rather support Kie-Ber, or Convoy Den-Ber/Pru,
and defend StP, leaving them facing a five-way draw until
they agree to take out Italy or Turkey.
> I really, really want Austria/Italy not know about it.
That's not a problem; you're the only one I'm having meaningful
communication with.
Nicky.
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
> *blush* I see now that I typoed "Press to R" for "Press to F"
> in my reply. It came to me without a problem, though. ;-)
Still much better than when you misaddress to the major stab plan (and not
to yourself).
> > I am most confident that my plan has high solo chances and I
> > am sure you would like it. The only drawback is that I must
> > as you to do a sacrifice: I need to get Turkish A Mos to StP
> > the coming fall.
>
> As in this turn? What makes you think Turkey would order
> Mos-StP this turn when it risks StP S Lvn-Mos succeeding?
> How does Mos-StP increase your Solo chances, anyway?
It's part of a 2WD plan with Turkey. StP for Tun. Should I say more?
> Not without some explanation of what you believe it will
> accomplish, and why you think it will work.
Fair enough. I might be wrong, but my gut feeling is that Turkey means
it. I have spent an awful lot explaining to him the bright side of the
story and I at least want to give it a try. Actually I doubt that he is
lying. The plan was on the table for the spring already (I should have
moved to Nor to give the support), but he chickened out and he did tell
me. It certainly is worth a try.
Now, the deal is that I guarantee him taking StP this fall. I told him
that I will blackmail you since your life is in my hand anyway, which is
true in any case. You might say that you do not _have_ to give up StP and
in fact me (or both of us) can just lie him and if he is honest then I get
Tun anyway. This is correct, but I consider it safer to do what he wants,
in case the plan in the south does not work for some reason and needs to
be repeated. If we lie to him then this is the last chance, if we do not
then there might be another one.
> At this point, I'd much rather support Kie-Ber, or Convoy Den-Ber/Pru,
> and defend StP, leaving them facing a five-way draw until they agree to
> take out Italy or Turkey.
That's an option indeed, one which I have been considering for a long
time. But it is not that bright for you I am afraid, because you cannot
make me solo. If the do not want to fight on the east, then I am left
with the choice of 4WD or 5WD because I could certainly eliminate you if I
wanted to.
Also, you really should not worry about StP. I would be very surprised if
you did not take it back as of next year!
Give it a thought and let me know.
If you do not want to let StP then I will still want to try tricking
Turkey into it. But my preference would be to go as he wants to. In fact
the most elegant way of dealing with him would be to do the 2WD lineup as
he wants and when he expects to set draw, I take StP. Would be very
illustrative and educational concerning the Stalemate Lines.~
Tamas
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
> I'd much rather support Kie-Ber, or Convoy Den-Ber/Pru,
> and defend StP,
The problem with these is I cannot see the benefit. First,
there is no big chance of any of these succeeding (I guess
tyr&boh S Mun, Sil S Pru-Ber ) and also it is not clear what
we gain if we get there. We cannot credibly threaten with
you helping me to War or Mos because as long as AT do not
attack each other, they pretty much cover the line. And
indeed, the more centers I pick up or the more forward my
position is (if it happens), the more likely they stick
together.
What you say about the 5-way constraint does not really hold
either. The problem is that Turkey might actually be happy
with a 4-way draw which is bad. Also, Italy has been asking
me to let Turkey open up even more (further advance to the
west med). Although he does not seem as determined any
more, a Turkish move to StP brings a lot of interesting news
to the picture, even if my taking of Tunis failed. That way
Turkey gets even more spread out while Austria is building
and IA must realize the threat of a FT two-way planning and
they might start doing something about it.
All in all, I think we need here something which is not too
conservative, so that there is more life in the game.
Tamas
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
>> I'd much rather support Kie-Ber, or Convoy Den-Ber/Pru,
>> and defend StP,
>
> The problem with these is I cannot see the benefit.
Well, eliminating Germany puts us in the endgame, and either
you eliminate me for the four-way, or you pull back in the south
to get AI and/or T eliminated, and create smaller draw
opportunities and solo possibilities.
> What you say about the 5-way constraint does not really hold
> either. The problem is that Turkey might actually be happy
> with a 4-way draw which is bad.
Yes, but I can't see Austria accepting one.
> Although he does not seem as determined any more, a
> Turkish move to StP brings a lot of interesting news
> to the picture, even if my taking of Tunis failed.
I guess I just can't see anyone with 40+ games seriously believing
that Turkey can get a two-way by taking StP, and even if the
Turk does believe it, Austria will let him know in no uncertain
terms how clueless that idea is. This strikes me as an AI attempt
to get you to eliminate me and force a three-way or four-way.
I say tell the Turk I've agreed to let him have StP in exchange
for you getting Tun, and see what happens from there, but I
see no point in actually letting the Turk have StP.
Nicky.
Message from France to Russia
Hi Nicky,
> > The problem with these is I cannot see the benefit.
>
> Well, eliminating Germany puts us in the endgame, and
> either you eliminate me for the four-way, or you pull back
> in the south to get AI and/or T eliminated, and create
> smaller draw opportunities and solo possibilities.
This is correct but the question is who makes the first
move and what kind of draw possibilities are around. I
think that what you describe as an either-or is not really a
choice. Surely I might need to pull back here and there but
unfortunately I fail to see a scenario which does not end by
me eliminating Russia in the end. If you think you have a
viable alternative I would be most happy to hear though.
> > What you say about the 5-way constraint does not really
> > hold either. The problem is that Turkey might actually
> > be happy with a 4-way draw which is bad.
>
> Yes, but I can't see Austria accepting one.
I agree but the position in the south is somewhat tricky.
Turkey is in Italy and Austria does not have fleets. It is
not that easy to make sure that while Austria is eliminating
Turkey, a French fleet does not slip to the IONian.
> > Although he does not seem as determined any more, a
> > Turkish move to StP brings a lot of interesting news
> > to the picture, even if my taking of Tunis failed.
>
> I guess I just can't see anyone with 40+ games seriously
> believing that Turkey can get a two-way by taking StP, and
> even if the Turk does believe it, Austria will let him
> know in no uncertain terms how clueless that idea is.
> This strikes me as an AI attempt to get you to eliminate
> me and force a three-way or four-way.
As I said, indeed the whole idea fails if it gets to the
ears of A/I and I trust you that you will let me give it a
shot.
I do not understand what you say about this being an A/I
idea against you. Surely, I will not eliminate you whether
or not the Turk is in StP as that brings absolutely nothing
to me. My guess is that A/I knows nothing about it, but
again I might be wrong.
As for what Turkey thinks, I agree with you. Indeed, it is
hard to believe that he means this but I have seen and heard
strange things from the Sultan this game which does leave
some hope. Moreover, if he does not want to give me Tunis,
what miniscule gain is it for him to invite me there? As
for Austria teaching him a lesson, I agree again. But if it
works this season then it will be too late, no matter how
hard he tries.
In any case, I have invested a lot into this already and I
really would like to try at least. Please, do not ruin my
fun, it does not make any difference for you.
> I say tell the Turk I've agreed to let him have StP in
> exchange for you getting Tun, and see what happens from
> there, but I see no point in actually letting the Turk
> have StP.
Ok, this is fine with me. If he asks about it, you can tell
him that you are pissed with everybody, in particular
Austria because he did not take your support last season and
in any case, you can do little against my blackmailing.
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
> >ION S Mar-LYO-WES-Tun
> >Mos-StP.
>
> I will do this deal.
It is done. Russia gave his word but I had to promise him
that he outlives Italy. I think that this can easily be
arranged (of course it is hardly enforcable anyway).
Do we have a deal now? To recap:
ION S Mar-Tun,
LYO C Mar-Tun,
Mos-StP
I will support WES in place and will keep my northern force
on hold.
As for your moves in Italy, it is of course your choice. I
probably would do Apu S TYS-Nap to keep pressure on both Ven
and Rome for next season. But again, it is your call.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Tamas
Message from France to Russia
/---------------------------------------------
| Message from tamas.hauer@cern.ch as France to Turkey in 'comments':
|
| Sultan,
|
| > >Mos-StP.
| >
| > I will do this deal.
|
| It is done. Russia gave his word but I had to promise him
| that he outlives Italy. I think that this can easily be
| arranged (of course it is hardly enforcable anyway).
|
| Do we have a deal now?
|
| Looking forward to hearing from you.
|
| Tamas
\---------------------------------------------
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> I fail to see a scenario which does not end by me
> eliminating Russia in the end. If you think you have a
> viable alternative I would be most happy to hear though.
I've been a "Dead Man Walking" for some time now. I
could probably make a good argument that in a "just world",
I shouldn't be eliminated unless it gave you the Solo or an
AF two-way, but justice has little to do with Diplomacy.
> As I said, indeed the whole idea fails if it gets to the
> ears of A/I and I trust you that you will let me give it a
> shot.
It doesn't even strike me as rational enough to try to use as a
lever against AIT. I can't imagine Buffalo or Dan believing
me if I told them, "France wants me to give StP to Turkey ,
so that Turkey will go for an FT two-way."
> I do not understand what you say about this being an A/I
> idea against you.
Sorry, I meant A/T. Once I'm gone AIT can sit and "3-yr
clock" a 4-way, or take out Italy for the 3-way. If Turkey
takes StP, you'd almost have to take Nwy, and I'd be gone.
> In any case, I have invested a lot into this already and I
> really would like to try at least. Please, do not ruin my
> fun, it does not make any difference for you.
I won't leak this to anyone. As I say, I doubt anyone
would believe me, if I did.
> Ok, this is fine with me. If he asks about it, you can tell
> him that you are pissed with everybody, in particular
> Austria because he did not take your support last season and
> in any case, you can do little against my blackmailing.
That's about as reasonable an explanation as any, but Turkey
and I haven't spoken since 1907, so I don't see it coming up.
Nicky.
Message from France to Russia
Nikcy,
> I've been a "Dead Man Walking" for some time now. I
> could probably make a good argument that in a "just world",
> I shouldn't be eliminated unless it gave you the Solo or an
> AF two-way, but justice has little to do with Diplomacy.
That is a good point which I will seriously keep in mind.
The problem with this argument is though that if I said I
promise to follow it, then you get unmotivated helping me.
I am very serious btw that I see absolutely no harm being
done to you for a long time (of course within reasonable
bounds of how crazy you might go...). I have no reason to
take away anything from you and others cannot. They cannot
force me to do that either, I do not see it as a bargaining
asset.
> > I do not understand what you say about this being an A/I
> > idea against you.
>
> Sorry, I meant A/T. Once I'm gone AIT can sit and "3-yr
> clock" a 4-way, or take out Italy for the 3-way. If
> Turkey takes StP, you'd almost have to take Nwy, and I'd
> be gone.
I still do not see how StP comes into this picture. With
you in Nor and Fin you are safe. If they want to 3-year
clock me, they can do it with or without you, their position
is not better or worse. But I hope that the situation is
still much better than that. It's hard to be _that_ patient
with all the Italian and Turkish units mixed up, with all
the Balkans empty and when I can pull back to a very far
distance still.
And one more thing which speaks against this being an A/T
idea. The F-T agreement started with a looong discussion
about Tunis only, which has been on for two seasons now.
StP came into the picture later.
In any case, I am most curious to see indeed whether this
flies or not. If it does, then it will be a very
spectacular thing which puts plenty of life into the game
again. I can even imagine that you outlive Turkey if
Austria gets as pissed as I believe he will. I certainly am
not sure though if Turkey will play what he promises and in
fact I am waiting for his confirmation anyway.
Tamas
Message from Turkey to France
>
>
>It is done. Russia gave his word but I had to promise him
>that he outlives Italy. I think that this can easily be
>arranged (of course it is hardly enforcable anyway).
>
>Do we have a deal now?
Do you mind if I check with the Russian to see if it is authentic?
> To recap:
>
>ION S Mar-Tun,
>LYO C Mar-Tun,
>Mos-StP
>
>I will support WES in place and will keep my northern force
>on hold.
yes, this plan doesn't have much risk for you.
>
>As for your moves in Italy, it is of course your choice. I
>probably would do Apu S TYS-Nap to keep pressure on both Ven
>and Rome for next season. But again, it is your call.
yes, this is mostly what I ahve to think about...how and when to attack Italy.
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
> Do you mind if I check with the Russian to see if it is
> authentic?
If I were you I would probably do it without asking. Sure,
go ahead.
Can I consider it a done deal?
With this we are showing some very spectacular Diplomacy. I
have to admit that your aggressive move towards the west med
was after all well justified: F Lyo with France's approval
is the real log term warranty while you are replacing Italy.
I have to take back my comments to the observers about your
tactics ;-)
Tamas
Message from Turkey to France
>
>
>> Do you mind if I check with the Russian to see if it is
>> authentic?
>
>If I were you I would probably do it without asking. Sure,
>go ahead.
>
>Can I consider it a done deal?
We can, but like I said, is is possible to not do it this fall? I
can't let you dictate both the position and pace of play here.
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
> >Can I consider it a done deal?
>
>
> We can, but like I said, is is possible to not do it this
> fall? I can't let you dictate both the position and pace
> of play here.
My understanding was that we are doing it this turn as
opposed to last turn exactly because of this reason. Last
season would have been better and I had to be lucky with my
orders for it even to be possible this turn. Probably the
next one is even worse and quite likely is impossible.
It is also my understanding that the position and pace of
play which resulted in your navy on Lyo, Tys and everywhere
was not really dictated by me. In any case, I am not
dictating but suggesting. But very, very honestly, if I
could dictate a little bit to you, you would have the whole
of Italy already and we would be setting draw along the
border of Munich in a year or so.
I have told you why I think that French A Tun is favourable
for you even on its own. I told you how it fits into my
trying to force you into the 2WD. Still I understood your
worries and I put added value into the package (see the
combination with Stp last term, this season and my staying
out of Munich which I could have taken purely at your
request).
And on top of this, I have been crystal clear all the way:
it is your call. I am not insulted by your continued attack
on my line, I accepted your worries last term and of course
can not do anything else than accepting what you want this
turn.
I find it quite curious that you consider it safer if either
(i) you do not build (no StP and no stab on Italy)
but Austria does, or
(ii) you stab Italy but leave him with three units and a
noncommitted France.
I notice that this is the second time you say yes to a plan
which you later take back. No problem, but it has
consequences. In particular, I suggest that you think over
my arguments and judge whether it is worth the risk of
cancelling the plan thus possibly missing the big
opportunity. And most importantly I am expecting a crystal
clear answer in time so that I can redo the damage with
Russia in time and notify him of the change.
Looking forward to hearing your decision.
Tamas
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
Oh yes, Turkey seems to be chickening out again. He asked
me if he can double check your promise with you and I said
of course, but I assume he never did.
In any case, I keep this on ice until the turn processes and
will rethink my position concerning the Sultan right away.
Do not by any means let him into StP but let him think that
it is still the agreed plan if he happens to ask about it.
He is writing strange things. I think I will have to think
about repositioning for the A/I against T opportunity.
Any news on your side from A/I?
T
Message from France to Austria
Hi Andy,
I am looking forward to your build this year. I will try to
position so that you can do whatever you want with Italy (or
without). I expect us to go back to very detailed
discussions after this season but if there is anything we
need to talk about this fall, let me know.
Tamas
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> Oh yes, Turkey seems to be chickening out again. He asked
> me if he can double check your promise with you and I said
> of course, but I assume he never did.
No, he hasn't written to me.
> In any case, I keep this on ice until the turn processes and
> will rethink my position concerning the Sultan right away.
> Do not by any means let him into StP but let him think that
> it is still the agreed plan if he happens to ask about it.
Understood.
> He is writing strange things.
He probably trying to set you up for something.
> Any news on your side from A/I?
Buffalo and I talked about DixieCon, but no word from Italy.
Nicky.
Message from Turkey to France
>
>My understanding was that we are doing it this turn as
>opposed to last turn exactly because of this reason.
i think you have a lot of 'misunderstandings' with people.
> Last
>season would have been better and I had to be lucky with my
>orders for it even to be possible this turn. Probably the
>next one is even worse and quite likely is impossible.
why?
so are you saying that this fall is the only time you want to do the
Army-Tunis thing?
>
>It is also my understanding that the position and pace of
>play which resulted in your navy on Lyo, Tys and everywhere
>was not really dictated by me.
Everything for the last few seasons has been dictated by the stop of your solo.
> In any case, I am not
>dictating but suggesting. But very, very honestly, if I
>could dictate a little bit to you, you would have the whole
>of Italy already and we would be setting draw along the
>border of Munich in a year or so.
you would dictate that because this would have given the board more
fluidity and a better chance for you to solo.
>
>I have told you why I think that French A Tun is favourable
>for you even on its own. I told you how it fits into my
>trying to force you into the 2WD. Still I understood your
>worries and I put added value into the package (see the
>combination with Stp last term, this season and my staying
>out of Munich which I could have taken purely at your
>request).
I'm not totally convinced that you did this for my benefit. When I
specifically asked for it, you made no comment and told me nothing in
advance.
>
>And on top of this, I have been crystal clear all the way:
>it is your call. I am not insulted by your continued attack
>on my line, I accepted your worries last term and of course
>can not do anything else than accepting what you want this
>turn.
>
>I find it quite curious that you consider it safer if either
>
>(i) you do not build (no StP and no stab on Italy)
> but Austria does
>, or
>(ii) you stab Italy but leave him with three units and a
> noncommitted France.
why do you think I am going to stab Italy? If I am not 100% sure that
you can't solo (my main concern), then I will not stab Italy. I would
see a 4 or 5 WD draw before I would be a party to you soloing.
>
>I notice that this is the second time you say yes to a plan
>which you later take back. No problem, but it has
>consequences.
What consequences?
> In particular, I suggest that you think over
>my arguments and judge whether it is worth the risk of
>cancelling the plan thus possibly missing the big
>opportunity. And most importantly I am expecting a crystal
>clear answer in time so that I can redo the damage with
>Russia in time and notify him of the change.
so are you saying that this fall is the only time you want to do the
Army-Tunis thing?
And lastly, there is still the issue of non-compliance for this
agreement if one of us lies. The way I see it, if you lie, there
aren't many consequences? what is stopping you from lying? The only
thing I can think of is that if you lie, then I have to 1) make sure
that you don't solo, so that 2) I can do my best to make sure that
the game ends in a 4 or 5 WD which you certainly don't want.
Message from France to Turkey
Dear Sultan,
> >My understanding was that we are doing it this turn as
> >opposed to last turn exactly because of this reason.
>
> i think you have a lot of 'misunderstandings' with people.
What makes you think so? What benefit do you expect from
insulting me? Feels good? What was wrong with what I said?
Just when in this game did I dictate anything in our
diplomacy or strategy?
> >Last season would have been better and I had to be
> >lucky with my orders for it even to be possible this
> >turn. Probably the next one is even worse and quite
> >likely is impossible.
>
> why?
Why what? You cannot see how my effort of moving to Gas and
supported Pie to Mar saved the day? You cannot see how
Austria's freedom of ordering Mun-Bur or Mun-Ruh as of next
spring and his extra army will affect things?
> so are you saying that this fall is the only time you want
> to do the Army-Tunis thing?
I am saying that I wanted to do it in the spring (just like
you at some point) and I am happy to do it in the fall (just
like you said at some point) and that I might not want to or
be able to do it after that and more importantly that you
decide. And I have been expecting a straight answer as to
what you want to do for some time now.
> Everything for the last few seasons has been dictated by
> the stop of your solo.
Not that we could not have fixed a major part of it through
diplomacy. I mean, if I was dictating ...
> > In any case, I am not dictating but suggesting. But
> >very, very honestly, if I could dictate a little bit to
> >you, you would have the whole of Italy already and we
> >would be setting draw along the border of Munich in a
> >year or so.
>
> you would dictate that because this would have given the
> board more fluidity and a better chance for you to solo.
Oh yes, sure. Setting 2WD at the border of Munich is
clearly a very fluid situation.
> >I have told you why I think that French A Tun is
> >favourable for you even on its own. I told you how it
> >fits into my trying to force you into the 2WD. Still I
> >understood your worries and I put added value into the
> >package (see the combination with Stp last term, this
> >season and my staying out of Munich which I could have
> >taken purely at your request).
>
> I'm not totally convinced that you did this for my
> benefit. When I specifically asked for it, you made no
> comment and told me nothing in advance.
I am sure the observers love this. You ask something, I do
what you ask for and then you say that just because I did not
advertise "look, I am doing it!!!", I can even take the
blame.
> >I find it quite curious that you consider it safer if either
> >
> >(i) you do not build (no StP and no stab on Italy)
> > but Austria does
> >, or
> >(ii) you stab Italy but leave him with three units and a
> > noncommitted France.
>
> why do you think I am going to stab Italy?
Where in the above paragraph did I say that? I said that
you either stab Italy or stay without a build.
I give it a further try though:
/---------------------------------------------
| Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey to France in 'comments':
|
| OK, now that I am in LYO-TYS-ION, I do not fear attack
| Italy as much.
|
| I propose the following... You take TUN with my help, and I
| take STP with your help. That way we are both across the
| stalemate line. And at the same time, i attack Italy and
| demolish him.
|
| Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey to France in 'comments':
|
| France,
|
| >Spring: A Mar-Lyo-Wes-Tun, F ION S A Mar-Tun, F TYS S A Apu-Rom.
| >Fall: you maintain Rom and force Nap whatever way you want. Italy loses
| >all his navy in one go.
|
| i like all of this.
|
| Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey to France in 'comments':
|
| France,
|
| good, then here I think is what I would like to offer:
|
| Austria keeps Munich, then you get Tunis in the fall
\---------------------------------------------
Of course we had that debate about the peculiarities of the
English language the other day, so I am hesitant to say that
the above talk is full of hints about you attacking Italy,
and at the same time of course probably many would interpret
some of your sentences as "offers", just based on the actual
use of that word.
> >I notice that this is the second time you say yes to a plan
> >which you later take back. No problem, but it has
> >consequences.
>
> What consequences?
My general observation in Diplomacy is that when I do not
keep myself to agreements repeatedly, people tend to count
less and less on what I am saying. I have waited very very
long until you were ready to discuss things with me
finally. I hardly said a word to other powers during the
past seasons because I counted on you being serious in what
you are saying.
You are now the commander in the southeast corner which you
could capitalize on in the alliance with me. Of course I
will never sign a 5WD, that is just stupid on my part. I
can pull back as far as I want and still not be hurt. You
can go as far as MAO without picking up a center. Italy
will love Turkey being at 8 centers while the navy is on
MAO, NAF, LYO, Wes, all important non-SC's. The only
centers within your reach are Austrian and Italian, two
powers who could credibly threaten to throw the game to me
unless we have good fences (like A Tun and A StP). You do
not have this power: if I pull back to MAO and also replace
A Kie, A Den with fleets after convoying two of my armies to
England, Austria has free hand and I bet any amount on that
he is not phasing hold orders.
If you cannot tell from the tons of lines I have sent you
during the past week that this scenario is _not_ what I
want, then you are blind. But thinking that I will not do
it just because that is not my first preference, in case the
game is stalled is also a naivity. After all, you were the
one who asked for no carebear play.
> And lastly, there is still the issue of non-compliance for
> this agreement if one of us lies. The way I see it, if you
> lie, there aren't many consequences? what is stopping you
> from lying? The only thing I can think of is that if you
> lie, then I have to 1) make sure that you don't solo, so
> that 2) I can do my best to make sure that the game ends
> in a 4 or 5 WD which you certainly don't want.
Right, I cannot add much to this. I am tired of arguing
that French A Tun puts you in better control and in
particular it puts you in a better position because my units
in the south are forced to support and not free to pull back
to MAO. But this long, long, long armstretching boils down
anyway to what I have been saying all along: you decide what
you want. I do not lie but I cannot give you any material
guarantee about it because there is no such thing in PBEM.
By now you surely have talked to Russia and I hope that he
told you the truth about our discussion anyway.
Can you guess when you expect to have a final answer?
Please remember that we cannot leave it to the last minute
because Russia is involved.
Tamas
Message from Turkey to Austria, France, and Italy
France,
No deal. I'm not supporting your army into Tunis in return for me
attacking Italy (and me getting STP, which I highly doubted).
Also, I'm tired of you lying, etc.
As soon as Germany and Russia are eliminated, I'll set draw for a 4WD.
Maybe I'll talk to you in a couple of years (may be not), if things
on the board change enough to warrant that.
Cheers,
Turkey
Message from France to Austria, Germany, Italy, Russia, and Turkey
> Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey to
> France, Italy and Austria in 'comments':
>
>
> France,
>
> No deal. I'm not supporting your army into Tunis in return for me
> attacking Italy (and me getting STP, which I highly doubted).
>
> Also, I'm tired of you lying, etc.
>
> As soon as Germany and Russia are eliminated, I'll set draw for a 4WD.
>
> Maybe I'll talk to you in a couple of years (may be not), if things
> on the board change enough to warrant that.
>
> Cheers,
> Turkey
>
Message from Turkey to all
We might as well send these comments to England too!
>
>Message from tamas.hauer@cern.ch as France to Germany, Russia, Turkey, Austria
>and Italy in 'comments':
>
>
>
>> Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey to
>> France, Italy and Austria in 'comments':
>>
>>
>> France,
>>
>> No deal. I'm not supporting your army into Tunis in return for me
>> attacking Italy (and me getting STP, which I highly doubted).
>>
>> Also, I'm tired of you lying, etc.
>>
>> As soon as Germany and Russia are eliminated, I'll set draw for a 4WD.
>>
>> Maybe I'll talk to you in a couple of years (may be not), if things
> > on the board change enough to warrant that.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Turkey
> >
Message from France to all
> Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey
> Also, I'm tired of lying.
You must be just by the volume but why do it at the first
place if it is so exhausting?
> As soon as Germany and Russia are eliminated, I'll set
> draw for a 4WD.
It seems that volunteers are needed for eliminating Russia
and Germany? Who wants to do it?
Good. As it seems that this is the wish-hour, let me put
mine to the list;
As soon as Turkey is eliminated, I'll set draw.
> Maybe I'll talk to you in a couple of years (may be not),
Maybe the idea of this game is that people actually talk
(maybe not)
> if things on the board change enough to warrant that.
They will, they will...
Monsieur Coq au Vin Gris des Cotes de Toul
aka. Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Sultan,
Ok, given two possibilities:
1) You tell France that you do not want to do this and this
(let's forget that it was your suggestion), a definite
YES/NO answer which I have been begging for and said for
a long time would have accepted whatever it is. (Me
lying? About what? Must laugh, sorry...)
2) Alternatively you stream a broadcast alienating the only
power who has some interest in your well-being thus
effectively signing your death sentence
I am really curious about the psychology behind this. If
not in a reply to me, I encourage you to press the answer to
yourself so that we can learn it after the game.
Bye,
Tamas
Message from France to all
Dear All,
Well, this is a message mostly for Andy (Austria) and Dan
but since the Sultan found it useful to go public and also
because I do not particularly like to be called a liar
without reason, I would like to start it in broadcast. I
will go back to private channels after this.
First, I need to apologize because indeed during the past
two seasons I spent way too much on diplomacy with the
Sultan and did not have adequate time for the rest. My only
excuse is that it _started_ like this:
[after two years of silence between France and Turkey]
/- USTX:comments - F1908B press from T to F ------------------
|
| OK, now that I am in LYO-TYS-ION, I do not fear attack
| Italy as much.
|
| I propose the following... You take TUN with my help, and
| I take STP with your help. That way we are both across
| the stalemate line. And at the same time, i attack Italy
| and demolish him.
\-------------------------------------------------------------
It is over, I am indeed awake now and back to the normal
course of life. We should probably discuss what size of
draw each of us prefer and then try to drive the game so
that it satisfies most of us.
Best regards,
Tamas
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
<Sigh>
I am really, really pissed. Not because I am not getting
Tunis though. What kind of play is this?
Ok, never mind. I have not spent much time on planning
alternatives but there is still time before the turn. I am
of course not eliminating you, why would I? At the same
time, I would like you to keep your fleet on the Baltic, if
that's ok with you. I need to think a little more, if you
have any suggestions, please do tell me.
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> The single thing that I need you to do this year, is not
> take Munich, and not assist the German to Munich.
Can we pick up from here?
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Hi Dan,
I hope I have not done much damage. I am sure that if you
had been in my place, you would have jumped on a Turkish
offer like that without thinking about it.
I do not have much plans yet because I have been very much
occupied with the Turk recently. Of course - like I said -
I encourage you guys to fix the east. I give any help
needed as soon as you have a plan.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> > The single thing that I need you to do this year, is not
> > take Munich, and not assist the German to Munich.
>
> Can we pick up from here?
>
Yes..we can.
Message from France to Austria
> > Can we pick up from here?
> >
> Yes..we can.
Do you need Berlin?
I can offer Kie's support
T
Message from Austria to France
> > > Can we pick up from here?
> > >
> > Yes..we can.
>
> Do you need Berlin?
>
> I can offer Kie's support
>
That would be a great start.
Im trying to figure out if I can turn around with less than 2 builds, and
I keep coming up with No.
Is there any way you could give me KIE and take Scandanavia instead.
I ask this, because when I turn around, I am going to need some space, and
that might be a decent place for you to temporarily pull back to....do you
understand what I am getting at.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
> That would be a great start.
>
> Im trying to figure out if I can turn around with less
> than 2 builds, and I keep coming up with No.
That is what I was thinking. I am trying to think about a
plan. It depends on whether you want to turn in the fall or
after the build?
> Is there any way you could give me KIE and take
> Scandanavia instead.
I really do not want to hurt Russia. Why do not you take
his support to Mos? That would be two builds.
Also, even if I wanted to give you Kie, would you really
trust me that I do not stab for Mun with Germany? I mean, I
_know_ I would not and if you had seen my press with Turkey
you would know it too but still.
> I ask this, because when I turn around, I am going to need
> some space, and that might be a decent place for you to
> temporarily pull back to....do you understand what I am
> getting at.
Yes. Now there is a question though: will Italy be involved
or not? He asked me some time ago to let Turkey to Wes, Naf
and the like but last time he wrote he said he is thinking
about taking up on Turkey's 5WD offer. Or maybe I should
pull back on all fronts? I dunno, let me think. It is kind
of tricky because I would like to help Italy when it comes
to that but if my fleets are not there then it is
problematic.
As for pulling back in the north, I would like to keep Kie
on the long run and thought that putting a fleet there would
be a safe border between us. What do you think?
Shall I ask Russia about War-Mos?
Letmethinksomemore, trust me, I am on this project with full
bandwidth now.
Tamas
Message from Russia to France and Turkey
Turkey,
>>> Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey to
>>> France, Italy and Austria in 'comments':
>>>
>>> No deal. I'm not supporting your army into Tunis in return for me
>>> attacking Italy (and me getting STP, which I highly doubted).
It might have been nice if you told me the deal was off, too, since I
was the one vacating StP...
Russia.
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> I am really, really pissed. Not because I am not getting
> Tunis though. What kind of play is this?
It may have something to do with this message that was
intended for Austria:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey to
> Russia in 'comments':
>
> what kind of story are you going to tell the russia?
>
>
> And I still assume you see this ending in a 3 way? I do too, but
> right now there is 0% risk for France. I want this done such that
> there is as close to 0% risk as possible. Germany is obvsiouly
> dead..but then how do you see us proceeding? what is the safest
> choice? (I don't see getting France to back up much further..so I
> am guessing that we need to get to a certain point in development
> before Italy can be paired down?)
>
> and don't we have to sell Italy on what is happening? I think the
> only thing that we still have over France's head is that we can
> make a 4 way draw happen. any thoughts on that?
>
> do I maybe approach him with the idea of IT eliminating you
> (austria)...we need to tell him some good stories..otherwise he
> has to be nervous about me stabbing him..and if thinks that is
> going to happen then he might throw what he can to France.
> you can only guess the stories that France is telling him!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> I would like you to keep your fleet on the Baltic, if
> that's ok with you.
I wasn't planning to move it.
> I need to think a little more, if you have any suggestions,
> please do tell me.
Let's see what sort of fall-out we get from the broadcasts.
Nicky.
Message from Austria to France
>
> > That would be a great start.
> >
> > Im trying to figure out if I can turn around with less
> > than 2 builds, and I keep coming up with No.
>
> That is what I was thinking. I am trying to think about a
> plan. It depends on whether you want to turn in the fall or
> after the build?
>
I want to turn a year from now, but likely would have to show enough of my
hand in spring, with how paranoid the Turk is, that Spring is when I would
need to make the big move.
> > Is there any way you could give me KIE and take
> > Scandanavia instead.
>
> I really do not want to hurt Russia. Why do not you take
> his support to Mos? That would be two builds.
Because that would show my hand this fall.
> Also, even if I wanted to give you Kie, would you really
> trust me that I do not stab for Mun with Germany? I mean, I
> _know_ I would not and if you had seen my press with Turkey
> you would know it too but still.
You make a good point.
> > I ask this, because when I turn around, I am going to need
> > some space, and that might be a decent place for you to
> > temporarily pull back to....do you understand what I am
> > getting at.
>
> Yes. Now there is a question though: will Italy be involved
> or not?
That is another question. I think that you Turkey and I could take down
the Italian quickly, but I would need time to position in order to do it.
ie...I need to have a unit in Trieste so that Venice cannot retreat there.
He asked me some time ago to let Turkey to Wes, Naf
> and the like but last time he wrote he said he is thinking
> about taking up on Turkey's 5WD offer.
Really?? Ok.
Or maybe I should
> pull back on all fronts? I dunno, let me think. It is kind
> of tricky because I would like to help Italy when it comes
> to that but if my fleets are not there then it is
> problematic.
I can see that. Lets both think about it....
Are you intending to keep the Italian alive or killing him.
> As for pulling back in the north, I would like to keep Kie
> on the long run and thought that putting a fleet there would
> be a safe border between us. What do you think?
Actually that is a good idea....I like it...it doesnt threaten Munich
either.
> Shall I ask Russia about War-Mos?
He and I are already discussing it. Timing is the issue.
> Letmethinksomemore, trust me, I am on this project with full
> bandwidth now.
As am I.
Let me know
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Hi,
> I want to turn a year from now, but likely would have to
> show enough of my hand in spring, with how paranoid the
> Turk is, that Spring is when I would need to make the big
> move.
Ok, understood.
At this point I probably should make it clear that just like
I am aware of the 5WD story Turkey is telling Italy, and
just like you are aware of the 2WD story I was selling to
Turkey, I am also quite up to date about the details of the
3WD plan you are selling to Turkey. Now that is just fine
but you will not be surprised to hear that I do not like
it. If it is to be 3WD and I can have some say in the
participants, I have other preferences. I hardly think that
a 2WD is possible without your fleets (have idea?) but I can
make an effort to design one ifyou want.
> > I really do not want to hurt Russia. Why do not you take
> > his support to Mos? That would be two builds.
>
> Because that would show my hand this fall.
I see. But the net tempo difference is pretty much the same
because Turkey would take one off.
> > Yes. Now there is a question though: will Italy be involved
> > or not?
>
> That is another question. I think that you Turkey and I
> could take down the Italian quickly, but I would need time
> to position in order to do it.
I do not like this. You and Mario can just as well take
down Turkey quickly, is that history now?
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Mario,
I am slowly getting the picture of what has been going on
while I was away from the negotiation room with the Turk.
My understanding is now that with the Tunis comedy which the
Turk was selling me (until he realized that I can do it in
such a way which is 100% safe for me) was meant to push me
one more step back in preparation of an AT rush on Italy.
I am pretty confident about this and have to say it was
surprise news which I just learned a few minutes ago. In
view of this I no longer think that my pulling further back
is a good idea. Instead, I am playing with the idea of
giving you Mar when needed. To that end, keeping F Pie
in place might be a wise idea.
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Dear Sultan,
> Also, I'm tired of you lying, etc.
Just because you realized too late that the smart trick of
pushing me further so that AT eliminates Italy did not work
does not necessarily mean that I was lying to you. And
also, unlike what you think, I have been talking to you
almost exclusively for some time now. And of course I kept
all the information confidential (except the part concerning
Russia, who _also_ kept the secret). And naturally I was
not feeding wild stories to other parties because the very
design of the 2WD does not need it. Still, I would not say
that I am tired of you lying to me, you tried it, yes it was
a long battle, did not work, that is the game.
Yes, our playing style is very different indeed. I am sorry
that you are not talking to me for two or more years now but
I understand that you need time to come up with similar
fantasies. If anything, I am very patient.
T
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
> > I am really, really pissed. Not because I am not getting
> > Tunis though. What kind of play is this?
>
> It may have something to do with this message that was
> intended for Austria:
Thanks a lot for this information, indeed it puts the story
in context. Still, as I said, I am not disappointed with
Tunis, but indeed with his conduct. Never mind.
> Let's see what sort of fall-out we get from the broadcasts.
It might be a good idea to warn Mario about the AT danger.
He does not believe me much but if you think it is a good
idea then you can do it. You could for example press the
same captured message to FI, that would initiate some
talking. Maybe not. Who knows.
I have started catching up with my Austrian diplomacy. From
the early messages it seems that he indeed is interested in
sending me to Scandinavia asap and AT eliminating Italy.
(He was only asking questions so far but this was the
meaning). I am thinking about letting F Pie into Mar if
things escalate (not the coming season). What do you think?
I am really not a big fan of Austria playing for FAT draw.
In fact if I have any say in it, I will not let that happen.
Maybe if things get worse, a joint RFI conference might be a
good idea indeed. What do you think?
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Hi Andy,
Ok, I have done some thinking. First, the 2WD is clearly
impossible, right? That means that we should aim for a 3WD,
for which we better have some idea as to who it should
include.
Also, as a followup of the Turkish broadcast I am getting
some disturbing and confusing picture of has been going on.
I have to admit that when discussing the Sultan's offer with
him, I did not consider all the possibilities when I wanted
to understand what was behind it. The board itself does not
look so complicated so I would like to see more clearly on
the diplomatic front.
It appears that you are waiting for the right moment of
stabbing Turkey (or Italy ?), which is quite understandable.
I also realize that I will have to make adjustments on my
part. The board right now looks pretty stable, which means
that nothing seems to be lost if we start slowly (meaning of
course until you stab which will speed up things). So I
guess no damage is done if both of us think it over
carefully even if the stab is delayed by one or two seasons
as an effect.
I would like to hear your opinion. Is this analysis
correct?
Tamas
Message from France to Germany
Kaiser,
This is probably the last time I will be asking. Are you
interested in Ber-Mun and live a little longer or would
rather not?
Tamas
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
I am quite convinced that A is playing for AFT now. Too
bad. I am not sure what can be done about it although of
course when they stab Italy it might bring some new element
in the game.
I think that we should push further in the north although I
am not sure what's the best guess to try. I asked Germany
whether he wants support for Ber-Mun but I am not sure if he
will bother to reply. There are two competing goals in the
north: trying to stop Austria from taking Berlin, in fact
would be nice to take it for ourselves and it is also
important not to let your A Lvn die.
Berlin requires immediate action but A Lvn is tricky. If we
want to be 100% sure then one of my fleets needs to be sent
to Bot. That can arrive next winter only by which time we
probably lose Berlin and they have the line. Mos S War-Lvn
is pretty much set in stone, right? I do not really know, I
am not very good at endgame situations.
What do you think? Or should we just wait until something
happens? My only worry is that they keep requesting me
working on Russian centers before they start anything. And
that just will not happen.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
Hello Tamas
>
> Ok, I have done some thinking. First, the 2WD is clearly
> impossible, right? That means that we should aim for a 3WD,
> for which we better have some idea as to who it should
> include.
Agreed. I have some reservations that will make this more difficult than
it probably needs to be, but I will try to be open minded.
> Also, as a followup of the Turkish broadcast I am getting
> some disturbing and confusing picture of has been going on.
What picture is that.
> I have to admit that when discussing the Sultan's offer with
> him, I did not consider all the possibilities when I wanted
> to understand what was behind it. The board itself does not
> look so complicated so I would like to see more clearly on
> the diplomatic front.
Well...tell me what you understand, or believe to, and I will add my input
to clear it up for you.
> It appears that you are waiting for the right moment of
> stabbing Turkey (or Italy ?), which is quite understandable.
Correct.
> I also realize that I will have to make adjustments on my
> part. The board right now looks pretty stable, which means
> that nothing seems to be lost if we start slowly (meaning of
> course until you stab which will speed up things).
Correct.
So I
> guess no damage is done if both of us think it over
> carefully even if the stab is delayed by one or two seasons
> as an effect.
Probably..yes, but depending on who we chose as a 3rd person for the draw.
> I would like to hear your opinion. Is this analysis
> correct?
In many ways yes, there are some things that I cannot give you analysis on
as I dont know what information you already have.
take care
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Hi Andy,
>>That means that we should aim for a 3WD,
>>for which we better have some idea as to who it should
>>include.
>>
>>
>
>Agreed. I have some reservations that will make this more difficult than
>it probably needs to be, but I will try to be open minded.
>
>
Maybe this is then the thing which needs the most urgent discussion
especially in view of
your comment about timing. What are then your preferences and how
flexible they get
when you are opening your mind?
>Well...tell me what you understand, or believe to, and I will add my input
>to clear it up for you.
>
>
As I said, it is pretty confusing and it is mostly my fault because the
Turk kept asking
questions for more than a week now with a quite high daily dose. (And I
decided to
bother answering those - as it turns out it was just a sadistic play on
his part with no
particular purpose.) In the end I managed to squeeze some epilogue out
of him, reviewed
our press and talked to others. It is my understanding that he did not
come up with all
of this on his own (makes a lot of sense), unfortunately whoever more
knowledgeable
encouraged him forgot to explain to him that some thinking would not
hurt but it might
reveal how and why his trick cannot work.
Now, my guess - backed up with some excerpts of AT press which I was
allowed to finally
have a look at and from which I understand that Turkey has done much
more coherent
discussion on the "100%" design of the ATF 3-way than all his press to
me put together - is that you
will be the one who eventually takes the credit for this really
marvelous excercise. Of course
I might be wrong but if I am correct I can do nothing but applaud.
The question is where does this leave us? I am kind of reluctant to
sentence Italy to death
while AFI is most clearly a viable ending and can see little reason for
supporting an
alternative.
At the same time I have the new Turkish counterproposal on my desk which
is now at least
coherent and makes much more sense. I am just too tired of going into
this other discussion
with him and listening to his foolproof requirements.
Of course it is not a big deal in Paris, we have little say in what
happens on the
east but in case I _am_ asked, I do have preferences as to what should
be the order of
the coming deaths once the size of the draw is given. The solo is off
the agenda already
so this basically means watching the development on the east. I really
do not think that
Turkey is indeed capable of eliminating A and I (I could help tune up
his plan but that
immediately would put it on hold because of his suspicion), which will
leave us with France and
the two fastest powers on the east. I trust that one of them will be
you which makes
me very happy indeed.
>Probably..yes, but depending on who we chose as a 3rd person for the draw.
>
>
Ok, so maybe we should then catch up on this issue as fast as we can.
Thoughts?
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> Maybe this is then the thing which needs the most urgent discussion
> especially in view of
> your comment about timing.
Agreed.
What are then your preferences and how
> flexible they get
> when you are opening your mind?
This is how I view things....
I would much prefer that Italy be the 3rd person in the draw.
My impression from your hesitation to attack Russia, is that he is your
prefered 3rd person...I hope I am wrong, but that is what I see.
Italy is certainly easier for me to attack, but Italy and I have proven we
can work together...this is not something that Russia and I have
accomplished.
> Now, my guess - backed up with some excerpts of AT press which I was
> allowed to finally
> have a look at and from which I understand that Turkey has done much
> more coherent
> discussion on the "100%" design of the ATF 3-way than all his press to
> me put together - is that you
> will be the one who eventually takes the credit for this really
> marvelous excercise. Of course
> I might be wrong but if I am correct I can do nothing but applaud.
Thank you.
> The question is where does this leave us? I am kind of reluctant to
> sentence Italy to death
> while AFI is most clearly a viable ending and can see little reason for
> supporting an
> alternative.
This is my preference as well.
> At the same time I have the new Turkish counterproposal on my desk which
> is now at least
> coherent and makes much more sense. I am just too tired of going into
> this other discussion
> with him and listening to his foolproof requirements.
What is he offering you.
> Of course it is not a big deal in Paris, we have little say in what
> happens on the
> east but in case I _am_ asked, I do have preferences as to what should
> be the order of
> the coming deaths once the size of the draw is given.
Im asking ..what is your preference
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>I would much prefer that Italy be the 3rd person in the draw.
>
>My impression from your hesitation to attack Russia, is that he is your
>prefered 3rd person...I hope I am wrong, but that is what I see.
>
Indeed you are wrong, sorry for not being clear. I said I am reluctant
to turn on Russia right now
because if I pick up those three centers first then it might be hard to
get out of the prison of
the 4WD: if I am too much ahead in schedule then the lineup has no error
tolerance and you guys
might hesitate to move towards the goal. I consider the three
scandinavian centers as French as I
do not believe I can be denied to collect them in any way. So that
should be taken into account
when counting.
Otherwise I do not see any realistic chance for Russia be included in
any outcome. He is not
holding a line in either direction, only carebear play would keep him
in. I say this with regret
because unlike you I had quite good experience with him in this game but
that is just how
the logic of the game dictates.
Yes, Italy is my preference over Turkey.
>Italy is certainly easier for me to attack, but Italy and I have proven we
>can work together...
>
I think that this is a very good point and I can second this. How does
this affect the timing you
mentioned? Or was that comment based on the assumption that I want
Russia only?
>>I might be wrong but if I am correct I can do nothing but applaud.
>>
>>
>
>Thank you.
>
>
Your welcome :-)
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
> I am slowly getting the picture of what has been going on
> while I was away from the negotiation room with the Turk.
> My understanding is now that with the Tunis comedy which the
> Turk was selling me (until he realized that I can do it in
> such a way which is 100% safe for me) was meant to push me
> one more step back in preparation of an AT rush on Italy.
> I am pretty confident about this and have to say it was
> surprise news which I just learned a few minutes ago. In
> view of this I no longer think that my pulling further back
> is a good idea. Instead, I am playing with the idea of
> giving you Mar when needed. To that end, keeping F Pie
> in place might be a wise idea.
Tamas,
I know you're just trying to be helpful and all, but this is totally
irrelevant and useless. You (and others) have been squawking for like 3
years now about how A and T will be attacking me. This is not new news.
Anyone looking at the board can tell that this is likely. Nevertheless
they have not. They may this turn. Who knows. I think that my only
chance is to push Turkey past me. As such, I'll be supporting him to Wes
this turn. If you want to ensure that succeeds with whatever moves you'd
like (Naf S Wes-Tun?), that would be great.
Austria and I have talked about taking Turkey out, just as Turkey and I
have talked about taking Austria out and I'm sure Austria and Turkey have
talked about taking me out. If you want Turkey out, I need builds.
You've got them to spare, so if you want to let Pie-Mar succeed that would
be great. It's going in unsupported, so if, as you mention above, you
want to give me Mar when needed, I think that it's needed this turn, if
at worst to fend off an AT stab
Message from France to Italy
Dan,
>I know you're just trying to be helpful and all, but this is totally
>irrelevant and useless.
>
I really do not think so. It is clearly useless to talk about plans or
deals or whatever.
At the same time I do not think it would be wise to stop talking, my
experience is that
it does more good than bad if we know about what's on each other's mind.
>You (and others) have been squawking for like 3
>years now about how A and T will be attacking me.
>
Of course, of course. I really did not mean to offer much new information
as far as bad-mouthing about AT, if anything why would you believe me?
What I did find important though is to express _my_ viewpoint in the given
situation. You could rightly ask why I have not been backing up so far, the
answer is in the broadcasts. I have been asking myself why it did not work
and the answer is (what Austria has confirmed) that - of course - this whole
thing was not Turkey's idea but he was told to do things. And I finally
understood the whole picture when a piece of AT press got into my hands.
Now, of course what you do with this information is up to you. I hardly
think it hurts.
Good luck,
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
> I really do not think so. It is clearly useless to talk about plans or
> deals or whatever.
> At the same time I do not think it would be wise to stop talking, my
> experience is that
> it does more good than bad if we know about what's on each other's mind.
Oh I'm not saying that it's useless to keep talking to me. I just am
getting kind of tired of everyone consistently telling me that AT are
trying to carve me up. I know this!
Also, considering that, if Turkey is to be believed, you and he have had
conversations about carving everyone up for a 2-way. Now, whether Turkey
can be believed is another question, and whether you or he or either were
entirely serious in such discussions is yet another, but I find it very
possible that these discussions were had.
> situation. You could rightly ask why I have not been backing up so far, the
> answer is in the broadcasts. I have been asking myself why it did not work
> and the answer is (what Austria has confirmed) that - of course - this whole
> thing was not Turkey's idea but he was told to do things. And I finally
> understood the whole picture when a piece of AT press got into my hands.
This must be the mysterious press to r that was intended for someone else?
In any case, it is not new news that AT have been plotting against me. I
think everyone is plotting against me, except maybe G or R.
So the question remains, am I likely to get into Marseilles this fall?
Message from France to Italy
Dan,
> Also, considering that, if Turkey is to be believed, you
> and he have had conversations about carving everyone up
> for a 2-way.
It was a one-sided discussion really. I do not think Turkey
ever in this game considered thinking about a 2WD
seriously. If he had, we would do it indeed. Just for your
entertainment, the whole thing indeed started with his offer
of supporting me to Tun completely out of the blue. For a
long time I did not realize that he was using this for
something else and just thought that it was his paranoia
that he kept taking it back while asking questions again and
again why I think it is safe for him. He said he wants a
quick elimination of Italy and did not think beyond that
although I indeed told him how to go towards the 2WD. This
went on and on until his disturbing broadcast.
Now, as far as the 2WD, you surely realize that when I am
saying we could have done it with Turkey, I am _not_ talking
about the French Tunis scenario. I believe that if he had
let me to Tunis and at the same time attacked you then I
would have quite high solo chances and probably would not
have bothered with the 2-way stalemate line. But, had he
thought about it seriously, he would have easily found the
plan which indeed works and I would have had to comply with
it.
> I think everyone is plotting against me, except maybe G or
> R.
Interestingly this is not the case. My original proposal to
T was that he eliminates Austria while you keep me on the
line. At the same time I have been encouraging Austria not
to harrass you. Of course his offer for Tun packaged with
your elimination was not something I could reject, although
I did not expect him to actually succesfully finish it. I
probably do not have to explain that it brings me absolutely
no good if something bad happens to you.
> So the question remains, am I likely to get into
> Marseilles this fall?
Dunno. Do you need to know? Unfortunately I am way behind
talking to the others for known reasons. I really need to
get some replies before I make up my mind concerning moves.
I know there is not much time but still.
I do not view the question as one which would affect your
orders but if you say this is not the case then I give it an
effort to decide.
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Dan,
I will do as you wished. Good luck.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> >I would much prefer that Italy be the 3rd person in the draw.
> >
> >My impression from your hesitation to attack Russia, is that he is your
> >prefered 3rd person...I hope I am wrong, but that is what I see.
[deleted section where Tamas tells me I am wrong, and he prefers Italy as
his 3rd person in the draw]
That is a very good point. That would take you to 14 right now.
> I think that this is a very good point and I can second this. How does
> this affect the timing you
> mentioned? Or was that comment based on the assumption that I want
> Russia only?
No...it affects the timing.
Right now we need to position the Turk so that the Italian can get a stab
on him that isnt suicide.
Current positions dictate that he has a world of problems in just getting
the position he needs
The place where I see the biggest problems in going forward are:
1. You are effectively at 15, with the scandanavian centers and Kiel.
2. To attack the Turk with ANY kind of effectiveness, I need to move off
the line that I am holding. Which begs you to solo.
3. Both the Italian and I need some space to pull off a stab.
Are you willing to step back across our lines.
This will entail...
1. giving me Kiel, and the 2nd build I need.
2. Taking a dot from the Russians to compensate.
3. Giving us enough time to take down the Turk?
Can you do that.
Andy
Message to all
Germany Quiz:
1. [ ] A Ber HOLD
2. [ ] A Ber - Kie
3. [ ] A Ber - Mun
4. [ ] A Ber DISBAND
Austria: Army Bohemia SUPPORT Army Munich
Austria: Army Munich SUPPORT Army Prussia → Berlin (*cut*)
Austria: Army Prussia → Berlin
Austria: Army Silesia SUPPORT Army Prussia → Berlin
Austria: Army Tyrolia SUPPORT Army Munich
Austria: Army Warsaw SUPPORT Turkish Army Moscow
France: Army Burgundy → Munich (*bounce*)
France: Army Denmark SUPPORT Army Kiel
France: Army Gascony SUPPORT Army Marseilles → Spain
France: Fleet Helgoland Bight SUPPORT Army Kiel
France: Army Kiel SUPPORT Army Burgundy → Munich
France: Army Marseilles → Spain
France: Fleet North Africa SUPPORT Fleet Western Mediterranean → Tunis
France: Fleet North Sea → English Channel
France: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Burgundy → Munich
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) → Portugal
France: Fleet Western Mediterranean → Tunis (*bounce, dislodged*)
Germany: Army Berlin SUPPORT Austrian Army Munich (*cut, destroyed*)
Italy: Fleet Naples → Tyrrhenian Sea
Italy: Fleet Piedmont → Marseilles
Italy: Fleet Tunis SUPPORT Turkish Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea → Western Mediterranean
Italy: Army Venice HOLD
Russia: Fleet Baltic Sea SUPPORT Austrian Army Prussia → Berlin
Russia: Army Livonia → St Petersburg
Russia: Army St Petersburg → Norway
Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea
Turkey: Army Apulia HOLD
Turkey: Fleet Gulf of Lyon SUPPORT Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea → Western Mediterranean
Turkey: Fleet Ionian Sea SUPPORT Italian Fleet Tunis
Turkey: Army Moscow SUPPORT Austrian Army Warsaw
Turkey: Army Rumania HOLD
Turkey: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Moscow
Turkey: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea → Western Mediterranean
|