|
|
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea can retreat to Tuscany
Italy: Army Venice can retreat to Piedmont or Tuscany
Message from Turkey to France
we might be able to talk now.
Message from France to Austria
Hi Andy,
> > if it is AI against T, then you all are doing a pretty
> > expert job of disguise.
>
> Yes...we are. And it isnt easy.
Italy is apparently disguising two of his units off the
board followed by disguising at least four Italian centers
with using another color. Pretty impressive, but I wonder
if you guys are going a little bit too far with it ;-)
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Italy: Army Venice -> Rome. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Italy: Fleet Naples -> Rome. (*bounce, dislodged*)
For god's sake! You cannot trust them _that_ much!!!
I am awfully sorry. And dislodging Mar probably would not
have helped either. Incidentally I did have a plan which I
almost proposed on the seas which would have been good
defense for you. The worst part is that the annihilation of
your units rids you of the bargaining power of throwing the
solo to me. Bad for both of us.
As I see now, all of Italy is lost, save for Marseilles.
The real bad part is that another French fleet might bring
some hopes but Mar would be the place to build it and ENG
just went to NTH. Oh boy it is really a disaster.
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Dear Sultan,
> we might be able to talk now.
I suggest:
Apu S Pie-Ven, Nap S Tys-Rom, ION S WES-Tun, Rum-Ser,
Lvn S Mos-War, Sev-Mos/Ukr, Sev-Ukr.
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Sorry, I meant
> Apu S Pie-Ven, Nap S Tys-Rom, ION S WES-Tun, Rum-Bud,
> Lvn S Mos-War, Sev-Mos.
Message from Turkey to France
>
>Dear Sultan,
>
>> we might be able to talk now.
>
>I suggest:
>
>Apu S Pie-Ven, Nap S Tys-Rom, ION S WES-Tun, Rum-Ser,
>Lvn S Mos-War, Sev-Mos/Ukr, Sev-Ukr.
I find this hard to believe that I could do this since
lvn-mos s by stp
naf s tun
And let's not get too quick to jump the gun here, what's the hurry.
I just stabbed italy and before that is done, you want me to stab Austria?
I may have been born yesterday, but I stayed up all night,
Turkey
Message from France to Russia
Nicky,
Well, what do you think?
Even after our exchange last night I would have sworn that I
am being set up. Apparently not, shame on me. I am also
sorry for NTH, that was my paranoia against various Russian
stab opportunities, but with the AT stab on Italy this costs
me a lot because I could use that fleet in the south.
So what's the story today? According to press from the
east, I doubt they give you Moscow. Shall we try to
outguess them with Mun/Ber, using maybe the retreated A Pie
which cuts Tyr's support?
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
Hello Tamas,
> > > if it is AI against T, then you all are doing a pretty
> > > expert job of disguise.
> >
> > Yes...we are. And it isnt easy.
>
> Italy is apparently disguising two of his units off the
> board followed by disguising at least four Italian centers
> with using another color. Pretty impressive, but I wonder
> if you guys are going a little bit too far with it ;-)
Your position is in no danger, why dont you trust me to be a good enough
player to get us a 2 way. I am in Austria...as long as I have people on
all sides of me, I am not a threat to solo.
I gave you informaton and you used it against me. Anything I tell you that
is concrete blows up in my face. Anything that I am vague about seems to
work just fine. Oh...and I kept my end of our bargain...and its probably
going to cost me a center, maybe more.
Congrats on getting the Russian to fall on a sword for you....what in the
world would have possessed him to do that.
So...why didnt you take Marsaille, as you told me you would.
And this little debacle around STP is going to slow down my stab of the
Turk immeasuralby. I had it all set up for next spring.
Why didnt you trust me....
Message from France to Turkey
> And let's not get too quick to jump the gun here, what's
> the hurry.
You wanted to talk, but did not say a word. I thought you
wanted to hear something.
> I just stabbed italy and before that is done, you want me
> to stab Austria?
You surely won't after he builds.
> I may have been born yesterday, but I stayed up all night,
I was 100% serious and would do exactly that if I was
playing Turkey now. But I really do not care that much.
Best regards,
France
Message from France to Austria
Hi Andy,
> Your position is in no danger, why dont you trust me to be
> a good enough player to get us a 2 way. I am in
> Austria...as long as I have people on all sides of me, I
> am not a threat to solo.
I would love to do 2W with you but I cannot see how it can
be done. If you show me the plan, I will do everything I
can to work on it. Really.
> I gave you informaton and you used it against me.
> Anything I tell you that is concrete blows up in my face.
> Anything that I am vague about seems to work just fine.
> Oh...and I kept my end of our bargain...and its probably
> going to cost me a center, maybe more.
Well the above is quite vague too. I do not really see what
information I used against you. I certainly did not mean
to.
I think I kept my end of the bargain too. Did not I?
> Congrats on getting the Russian to fall on a sword for
> you....what in the world would have possessed him to do
> that.
It was his request, or I should say a blackmail. He said he
will not move to Swe only if I go to Lvn. Pretty bad move
for me anyway, you do not have to explain it to me.
> So...why didnt you take Marsaille, as you told me you
> would.
I did _not_ say I would. I did say that it is one of my
plans. And I did say in one of the latest messages that I
want to delay it until the fall.
> And this little debacle around STP is going to slow down
> my stab of the Turk immeasuralby. I had it all set up for
> next spring.
>
> Why didnt you trust me....
I did. I told you at some point that the 2WD is not
possible any more. You agreed. Why? The moves past season
are completely irrelevant except in a 2WD plan. Why did not
you tell me you want the 2-way?
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
> Italy: Army Venice -> Rome. (*bounce, dislodged*)
> Italy: Fleet Naples -> Rome. (*bounce, dislodged*)
>
> For god's sake! You cannot trust them _that_ much!!!
There was nothing I could do. I have been living on borrowed time for
about 3 years now. I'm kind of surprised that it took this long for the
other shoe to drop.
> your units rids you of the bargaining power of throwing the
> solo to me. Bad for both of us.
> As I see now, all of Italy is lost, save for Marseilles.
> The real bad part is that another French fleet might bring
> some hopes but Mar would be the place to build it and ENG
> just went to NTH. Oh boy it is really a disaster.
Nah I don't think so. I think Tunis has at least a chance to be saved.
And if it does, then I still have the bargaining chip to throw you the
solo. And in fact, I am planning on throwing you the solo and if Tunis
can be saved, I think it can be done.
It seems that Russia is back in your good graces and will NOT be getting
Moscow this turn. If you think that you can coordinate this turn with
him, then I suggest that you order Bal S Lvn-Pru, Stp-Lvn, Nwy-Stp.
Probably Kie-Ber to cut any support for Ber S Sil/War-Pru, with Ruh S
Hel-Kie to make sure you keep Kiel.
Then next spring, you can guarantee Berlin with Pru-Sil, Bal S Kie-Ber,
Ruh/Bur-Mun, Hel-Kie. Hopefully he doesn't dislodge you from Prussia,
because if you're in Pru and Ber, then Mun is guaranteed (Pru-Sil, Bur,
Ruh, Kie S Ber-Mun, Bal-Ber)
Naturally this all means Russia needs to be on board. But if I can keep
Tunis, this is all possible as Tun would be your 18th.
So, how do we do that. Well it depends on what he tries to order.
1. Ion, Tys S Wes-Tun. I think this is by far the most likely
2. Wes-Naf, Ion S Tys-Tun
3. Wes-Naf, Tys S Ion-Tun
Those last 2 are less likely I think, especially #3, since that risks
Tus-Tys gumming up the whole works. So, against defense #1, we could
order Mao, Naf S Tun-Wes (the infamous reverse attack), or we could do Naf
S Wes, Tus-Tys. We could also try Naf S Mao-Wes, Tus S Tun-Tys in a
reverse attack ploy.
Of course regardless of what we play here, Por-Spa(sc) and Spa-Gas. The
line we should be shooting for in the south is Mar, Wes S Lyo, Naf S Tun,
which requires 5 fleets, which is exactly how many we have in the south if
we can keep Mar and Tun and my 2 fleets that they represent.
Let me knokw your thoughts.
Mario
PS - I will be throwing out all kinds of disinformation garbaget to both
AT - so take anything that they say that I am saying with a grain of salt.
Message from Austria to France
Tamas,
> > Your position is in no danger, why dont you trust me to be
> > a good enough player to get us a 2 way. I am in
> > Austria...as long as I have people on all sides of me, I
> > am not a threat to solo.
>
> I would love to do 2W with you but I cannot see how it can
> be done. If you show me the plan, I will do everything I
> can to work on it. Really.
I need to look at the board. Its not as I expected it to be.
> > I gave you informaton and you used it against me.
> > Anything I tell you that is concrete blows up in my face.
> > Anything that I am vague about seems to work just fine.
> > Oh...and I kept my end of our bargain...and its probably
> > going to cost me a center, maybe more.
>
> Well the above is quite vague too. I do not really see what
> information I used against you. I certainly did not mean
> to.
I asked you to tap Tunis. You supported it.
You didnt take Marsaille.
> I think I kept my end of the bargain too. Did not I?
Well...I was expecting Marsaille to be gone, but your message telling me
that you wanted to back off, and my message offering a 2 way must have not
gotten to thier respective destinations.
> > Congrats on getting the Russian to fall on a sword for
> > you....what in the world would have possessed him to do
> > that.
>
> It was his request, or I should say a blackmail. He said he
> will not move to Swe only if I go to Lvn. Pretty bad move
> for me anyway, you do not have to explain it to me.
How does that help him?
I dont think its a bad move at all.
> > So...why didnt you take Marsaille, as you told me you
> > would.
>
> I did _not_ say I would. I did say that it is one of my
> plans. And I did say in one of the latest messages that I
> want to delay it until the fall.
>
I didnt get that message. Or overlooked you mentioning it.
My moves would have the Italian OUT of the game, and 2 builds.
As well as a couple of other moves the Turk was willing to make, and he
was going to set up my stab perfectly for me.
> > And this little debacle around STP is going to slow down
> > my stab of the Turk immeasuralby. I had it all set up for
> > next spring.
> >
> > Why didnt you trust me....
>
> I did. I told you at some point that the 2WD is not
> possible any more. You agreed. Why? The moves past season
> are completely irrelevant except in a 2WD plan.
No..in a 3 way plan, something has to give also...I know you prefered the
Italian, but he was completely unwilling to make any move that did not
include me totally walking off the stalemate line and exposing myself to
both you and him. It was just easier to engineer him out.
Why did not
> you tell me you want the 2-way?
I did. I think it got lost with the note you sent me about not taking
Marsaille.
So where do we go from here.
Andy
Message from France to Italy
Hi Dan,
> There was nothing I could do. I have been living on
> borrowed time for about 3 years now. I'm kind of
> surprised that it took this long for the other shoe to
> drop.
But a self-bounce in the spring? You should have known,
that _if_ they stab they do it the way they did???
> It seems that Russia is back in your good graces and will
> NOT be getting Moscow this turn.
I will have to see about it. He was the one who wanted
Den-Lvn suggesting Lvn S Stp-Mos in the fall. But it does
not make that much sense any more because given that Austria
is building, he is clearly the odd man out.
> Naturally this all means Russia needs to be on board. But
> if I can keep Tunis, this is all possible as Tun would be
> your 18th.
Yes, I agree that Mun/Ber is possible. I was playing with
the idea of War or Mos though. Yes, I did go through the
possibilities with Tunis but it is a guess once-only
situation.
But in fact I forgot about your third fleet. For some
reason I assumed that only A Ven is surviving. Yes, in this
case the situation is much, much better.
And in fact if I get Tunis then one of the Italian centers
might also be possible on the long run. I have not
doublechecked the eastern line, but IIRC none of them
without Tunis holds all the Italian centers.
I will now go and analyse the fleets in the south.
> Of course regardless of what we play here, Por-Spa(sc) and
> Spa-Gas. The line we should be shooting for in the south
> is Mar, Wes S Lyo, Naf S Tun, which requires 5 fleets,
> which is exactly how many we have in the south if we can
> keep Mar and Tun and my 2 fleets that they represent.
Yes, this is what I thought.
> PS - I will be throwing out all kinds of disinformation
> garbaget to both AT - so take anything that they say that
> I am saying with a grain of salt.
Turkey just showed up and said that he is allowing me to
talk again. I hate this, never mind. In any case he did
not say anything so I proposed him Lvn S Mos-War, Rum-Bud,
Apu S Pie-Ven plus minor things. Of course he was laughing
at it.
Will be back soon,
please send in your retreats ASAP, so that the I can use the
map on floc :-)
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> I asked you to tap Tunis. You supported it.
True, but this does not qualify by keeping or not keeping
my side of the bargain. I did not want to let NAF be
annihilated, that is why I did not order it to Tun. I was
curious what you wanted with it and if it had been asking
for a support order I would have considered it. Move order
was not possible.
As for supporting Tunis, you have to admit that it is not
easy for France to satisfy the Austrian desires. If I do
something against Italy then you can quite rightly refer to
our agreed AIF declaration which I clearly would violate by
any aggression towards him.
> Well...I was expecting Marsaille to be gone, but your
> message telling me that you wanted to back off, and my
> message offering a 2 way must have not gotten to thier
> respective destinations.
I do not think my message was lost because you replied to
it. Here is the original:
/---------------------------------------------
| Message from tamas.hauer@cern.ch as France to Austria in 'comments':
|
| Allright. I only wanted to know this because it is not
| clear whether I must do it in the spring or can wait until
| the fall. If I knew that F Mar is annihilated then clearly
| the spring is the best option, otherwise I will have to
| think. DUH. :-)
\---------------------------------------------
But indeed, I do not recall any 2WD related message from
you.
> I dont think its a bad move at all.
I do. I cannot do anything there. But the reason why I
thought it was a bad move is that a Russian stab would have
been devastating for me. Fortunately for me he indeed did
not move to Swe.
> My moves would have the Italian OUT of the game, and 2
> builds. As well as a couple of other moves the Turk was
> willing to make, and he was going to set up my stab
> perfectly for me.
I still do not see how a 2W is possible without Austrian
fleets. A carebear yes, but a real one hardly. What are
the centers from which you can build 4-5 fleets, which are
needed to keep me on the west side of the Med. And even if
you see those centers, do you really think Turkey will watch
for 5 years your navy buildup? I am sorry if I overlooked
something, please do let me know how you imagine that, maybe
we can fix it.
> No..in a 3 way plan, something has to give also...I know
> you prefered the Italian, but he was completely unwilling
> to make any move that did not include me totally walking
> off the stalemate line and exposing myself to both you and
> him. It was just easier to engineer him out.
I can see that but I fail to see why I was not allowed to
know about it. What I am telling to Italy is pretty
irrelevant, in fact you can guess that I have not been
whispering to him all the time "you have nothing to fear
from AT".
> So where do we go from here.
Well, I do have some ideas but now the Turk is talking full
bandwidth again. Keep tuned.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> > I asked you to tap Tunis. You supported it.
>
> True, but this does not qualify by keeping or not keeping
> my side of the bargain.
No..but it does qualify as using the information I gave you, against me.
> As for supporting Tunis, you have to admit that it is not
> easy for France to satisfy the Austrian desires. If I do
> something against Italy then you can quite rightly refer to
> our agreed AIF declaration which I clearly would violate by
> any aggression towards him.
I didnt agree to an AIF...I said that it was a preference, nothing more.
>
> I do not think my message was lost because you replied to
> it. Here is the original:
>
> /---------------------------------------------
> | Message from tamas.hauer@cern.ch as France to Austria in 'comments':
> |
> | Allright. I only wanted to know this because it is not
> | clear whether I must do it in the spring or can wait until
> | the fall. If I knew that F Mar is annihilated then clearly
> | the spring is the best option, otherwise I will have to
> | think. DUH. :-)
> \---------------------------------------------
And I thought I replied to you that it would be annihilated, the Turk was
supposed to attack TYS the other way, and then MAR could retreat to PIE or
disband.
>
> > I dont think its a bad move at all.
>
> I do. I cannot do anything there. But the reason why I
> thought it was a bad move is that a Russian stab would have
> been devastating for me. Fortunately for me he indeed did
> not move to Swe.
With a toady Russian army and fleet, I have to consider it a major threat.
> > My moves would have the Italian OUT of the game, and 2
> > builds. As well as a couple of other moves the Turk was
> > willing to make, and he was going to set up my stab
> > perfectly for me.
>
> I still do not see how a 2W is possible without Austrian
> fleets. A carebear yes, but a real one hardly.
Good point.
What are
> the centers from which you can build 4-5 fleets, which are
> needed to keep me on the west side of the Med. And even if
> you see those centers, do you really think Turkey will watch
> for 5 years your navy buildup? I am sorry if I overlooked
> something, please do let me know how you imagine that, maybe
> we can fix it.
You make a very good point.
> > No..in a 3 way plan, something has to give also...I know
> > you prefered the Italian, but he was completely unwilling
> > to make any move that did not include me totally walking
> > off the stalemate line and exposing myself to both you and
> > him. It was just easier to engineer him out.
>
> I can see that but I fail to see why I was not allowed to
> know about it.
Because pretty much anything I have told you concrete about my plans you
have used against me, all the way back to supporting VEN with Piedmont.
> > So where do we go from here.
>
> Well, I do have some ideas but now the Turk is talking full
> bandwidth again. Keep tuned.
Sure....let me know what he says...
Andy
Message from France to Austria
>>I can see that but I fail to see why I was not allowed to
>>know about it.
>>
>>
>
>Because pretty much anything I have told you concrete about my plans you
>have used against me, all the way back to supporting VEN with Piedmont.
>
>
Oh come on! First, it is not true, but even if we assume it is true,
how on earth could I use the information "I am not interested in
AI" against you? Do you really think that Italy is believing such
a junk from me? But really, the point is that for me there is no way
out: as long as you are telling me AI and at the same time want to
really do AT, then whatever I do you will use against me.
T
Message from Austria to France
> >Because pretty much anything I have told you concrete about my plans you
> >have used against me, all the way back to supporting VEN with Piedmont.
> >
> >
> Oh come on! First, it is not true, but even if we assume it is true,
> how on earth could I use the information "I am not interested in
> AI" against you? Do you really think that Italy is believing such
> a junk from me? But really, the point is that for me there is no way
> out: as long as you are telling me AI and at the same time want to
> really do AT, then whatever I do you will use against me.
Tamas,
you misunderstand me.
I meant in specific terms....If I had told you we were taking down the
Italian, do you think it would have gotten back to him....I cant see how
it wouldnt have.
I am not interested in AT, but you seem to be painting me with a brush
where it is my only option. And in some terms I may have painted myself
into that corner.
So...what do you want to do??
Message from France to Austria
Dear Andy,
>I meant in specific terms....If I had told you we were taking down the
>Italian, do you think it would have gotten back to him....I cant see how
>it wouldnt have.
>
>
Do you think that I am not telling him every season that I expect an AT
stab on him? You certainly
cannot blame this on me using the information you gave me against you
though.
>I am not interested in AT, but you seem to be painting me with a brush
>where it is my only option. And in some terms I may have painted myself
>into that corner.
>
>
I really do not blame you for that. You have done a great job already
fighting yourself into
the draw including AT. If it is ATF, then let it be. Except that with
AI against T your survival
would have been better guaranteed, I think.
>So...what do you want to do??
>
Well, A Lvn and the abundance of Turkish builds puts us (T and F) into
the kingmaker's seet
whether it is ATF or RTF. Apart from that I do not see what is needed
to be done in this
game. But I think that the decision is really in Turkey's hand, I have
little say there - and as
we have been getting along very well, I certainly will not vote against
you. And since
the two of you seem to get along very fine, you have nothing to worry I
guess.
The real trouble is if Turkey pushes his 2WD plan. With his many coming
builds,
it would be almost by default if Turkey was played by a better player.
I think that it can
be safely ruled out though given our history. But if he picks up Tun,
thus closing the southern
line for good then there is a temptation which he should stand.
Probably will.
In reply to your question, I think there is nothing I _want_ to do. I
am sitting on the line and
see what you guys do with the east. Then we set draw. Then I _do_ want
to read the
press archive.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> >I meant in specific terms....If I had told you we were taking down the
> >Italian, do you think it would have gotten back to him....I cant see how
> >it wouldnt have.
> >
> >
> Do you think that I am not telling him every season that I expect an AT
> stab on him? You certainly
> cannot blame this on me using the information you gave me against you
Good point. Not blaming...
> Well, A Lvn and the abundance of Turkish builds puts us (T and F) into
> the kingmaker's seet
> whether it is ATF or RTF.
It would take too long to kill me. And give you way too big a shot at
soloing.
> The real trouble is if Turkey pushes his 2WD plan.
And what is that.....you have ben talking about it for years.
With his many coming
> builds,
2....2 is not many.
> In reply to your question, I think there is nothing I _want_ to do. I
> am sitting on the line and
> see what you guys do with the east. Then we set draw. Then I _do_ want
> to read the
> press archive.
Well..you do have to kill the Russian. Since niether of us can get to him.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
>>Well, A Lvn and the abundance of Turkish builds puts us (T and F) into
>>the kingmaker's seet
>>whether it is ATF or RTF.
>>
>>
>
>It would take too long to kill me. And give you way too big a shot at
>soloing.
>
>
I do not think so. Not much longer than what I need to kill Russia. As
for my soloing, with
Turkish Tun you have lost your bargaining power. You cannot make me
solo against RT: there
is a northern stalemate for Russia which requires only two fleets. If
he builds Stp/nc, he is
almost there.
>>The real trouble is if Turkey pushes his 2WD plan.
>>
>>
>
>And what is that.....you have ben talking about it for years.
>
>
That is why I do not think it has a positive probability.
>2....2 is not many.
>
>
Well, of course as long as he does not want the 2way, it is just two
(depending on what
you do with Rom, he certainly has a good claim for Tun, Nap, Rom).
>>In reply to your question, I think there is nothing I _want_ to do. I
>>am sitting on the line and
>>see what you guys do with the east. Then we set draw. Then I _do_ want
>>to read the
>>press archive.
>>
>>
>
>Well..you do have to kill the Russian. Since niether of us can get to him.
>
>
I know that.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> >It would take too long to kill me. And give you way too big a shot at
> >soloing.
> >
> >
> I do not think so. Not much longer than what I need to kill Russia. As
> for my soloing, with
> Turkish Tun you have lost your bargaining power.
Really??
Well if he attacks me, you will get your solo.
And it will only take the same amount of time, if you dont use any
additional units.
You cannot make me
> solo against RT: there
> is a northern stalemate for Russia which requires only two fleets. If
> he builds Stp/nc, he is
> almost there.
That is crap....you dont need Tunis or STP if you are taking centers in
the middle of the board.
> >And what is that.....you have ben talking about it for years.
> >
> That is why I do not think it has a positive probability.
Well tell me the plan and I will let you know my feelings.
> >2....2 is not many.
> >
> Well, of course as long as he does not want the 2way, it is just two
> (depending on what
> you do with Rom, he certainly has a good claim for Tun, Nap, Rom).
If he doesnt give me Rome....he knows what will happen.
> >>In reply to your question, I think there is nothing I _want_ to do. I
> >>am sitting on the line and
> >>see what you guys do with the east. Then we set draw. Then I _do_ want
> >>to read the
> >>press archive.
> >Well..you do have to kill the Russian. Since niether of us can get to him.
> >
> >
> I know that.
Well....have at it....you can have scandanavia anytime you want.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Hi Andy,
We are now heading towards theoretical waters which I like very much. I
really
regret that Turkey is not played by you, we would have the most fascinating
endgame.
>Really??
>Well if he attacks me, you will get your solo.
>
I hardly think that is possible. You can give me Ber and Mun but the
rest is slower than
the Russian buildup in the north. Russia can lock me out of Scandinavia
if Turkey
and Russia wants so and that means that I would need four centers on top
of Mun
and Ber. Hardly possible if you take off pieces.
> You cannot make me
>
>
>>solo against RT: there
>>is a northern stalemate for Russia which requires only two fleets. If
>>he builds Stp/nc, he is
>>almost there.
>>
>>
>
>That is crap....you dont need Tunis or STP if you are taking centers in
>the middle of the board.
>
>
I do not see four centers in the middle of the board which I could pick
up while Russia is getting
stronger and Turkey uses 6-7 armies to stop that.
>>>And what is that.....you have ben talking about it for years.
>>>
>>>
>>That is why I do not think it has a positive probability.
>>
>>
>
>Well tell me the plan and I will let you know my feelings.
>
>
I can tell you the plan, which _I_ _would_ propose if I were in Turkey's
shoes.
Take Bud, Rom, Tun, Nap and War with French support. Give up Mos to
Russia.
At the same time I would tell France to pull back from the Med, not take Mar
and probably would request some army adjustments in Germany. This
should be met completely and now,
otherwise it is RTF. Clearly Russia will not die if he can live so that
easily flies.
This way Turkey builds four, you disband one and Russia builds one. If
France does
what he was supposed to do then in the fall Russia can be kicked out of
Moscow,
Turkey takes Serbia and has F AEG, A Bul, A Arm, and the southern naval
line.
Of course further details should be worked out but I really think that
after Turkey
picks up Tunis, your life is solely in his hands. And of course I have
to add that
because of this you have little to worry about.
>>I know that.
>>
>>
>
>Well....have at it....you can have scandanavia anytime you want.
>
>
Right. I will.
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Dan,
Austria says he is the one who is getting Rom. This might be useful
information:
F Tus is probably not attacked then.
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
> Austria says he is the one who is getting Rom. This might be useful
> information:
> F Tus is probably not attacked then.
Right. I thought that I could keep them out of Rom or Ven with Pie-Ven,
Tus-Rom, but didn't see F Nap as well. So, either way, they can take Rom
without my having to do anything about it.
But I don't think I can use F Tus for support - unless you think Tus S
Tun-Tys is reasonable, which I'm not so sure about.
Message from France to Italy
Dan,
I do not have your message with me but this is where I am now:
A) ION & TYS S WES-Tun
Aa) Nap S TYS
Aaa) Apu S Tyr-Ven
Aab) Apu S Ven-Rom
Ab) Nap S Ven-Rom, Apu S Tyr-Ven
B) WES-Naf, ION S TYS-Tun, Nap-TYS
Ba) Apu S Ven-Rom
Bb) Apu S Tyr-Ven
1) Naf S Tun, Tun S MAO-WES, Tus-TYS
2) Naf S MAO-WES, Tus S Tun-Tys
1A : WIN
1B : Lose
2Aaa: Lose
2Aab: Guessing
2Ab : WIN
2B : WIN
Does this look correct?
I am not sure if Tus S Tun-Tys is really bad. Austria sounded a little
panicky in his
latest email concerning whether Turkey keeps his side of their deal. He
might
request both Ven and Tyr be supported, in which case 2) is win. If Nap
S Tys then
the question is still there whether Apu supports Tyr or Ven, in one of
the cases
we are left with one more season's worth of guessing.
I dunno really. Let me know if I missed something. I am especially
interested
if the cases which I labeled with "lose" are really lost.
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Hi Dan,
Back to where my email is (Realpolitik and my mailbox seems
to be incompatible :-))
> Nah I don't think so. I think Tunis has at least a chance
> to be saved. And if Tunis can be saved, I think it can be
> done.
Yes, I Agree. I believe that if Tunis is saved for you then
it is a win on the long run (as far as Tun is concerned).
> I suggest that you order Bal S Lvn-Pru, Stp-Lvn, Nwy-Stp.
> Probably Kie-Ber to cut any support for Ber S Sil/War-Pru,
> with Ruh S Hel-Kie to make sure you keep Kiel.
>
> Then next spring, you can guarantee Berlin with Pru-Sil,
> Bal S Kie-Ber, Ruh/Bur-Mun, Hel-Kie. Hopefully he doesn't
> dislodge you from Prussia, because if you're in Pru and
> Ber, then Mun is guaranteed (Pru-Sil, Bur, Ruh, Kie S
> Ber-Mun, Bal-Ber)
If I assume Tyr-Ven then a good guess gives Ber or Mun in
the spring. Lvn-War is not that bad either. Or what about
Lvn S Kie-Bal-Pru, Hel S Ruh-Kie, Bur-Ruh. The only problem
with that is that I probably need to move Gas-Par if I do
not want to risk F Por getting stuck.
> 1. Ion, Tys S Wes-Tun. I think this is by far the most likely
>
> 2. Wes-Naf, Ion S Tys-Tun
>
> 3. Wes-Naf, Tys S Ion-Tun
>
> Those last 2 are less likely I think, especially #3, since that risks
> Tus-Tys gumming up the whole works.
Yes, I do not think #3 makes sense.
> So, against defense #1, we could order Mao, Naf S Tun-Wes
> (the infamous reverse attack), or we could do Naf S Wes,
> Tus-Tys. We could also try Naf S Mao-Wes, Tus S Tun-Tys
> in a reverse attack ploy.
I thought about it and I do not think the reverse attack is
good enough. Even if succeeds, it only maintains the status
quo and after they are done with Rom, Nap (this year), Mar
is under threat from Pie. It is especially hard to keep it
Italian. We are then left with the same guessing game but
two of your units are gone and Nap is freed to do whatever
it wants to.
I think that against each of their possible moves there is a
better defense:
#1: Naf S Tun, Tun S MAO-WES, Tus - TYS. This saves Tunis
and at the same time takes WES. I think that's a win.
#2: Naf S MAO-WES, Tus S Tun-Tys. Here the success depends
on what Nap is doing (and further guessing might depend on
what Apu is doing)
> Of course regardless of what we play here, Por-Spa(sc) and
> Spa-Gas. The line we should be shooting for in the south
> is Mar, Wes S Lyo, Naf S Tun, which requires 5 fleets,
> which is exactly how many we have in the south if we can
> keep Mar and Tun and my 2 fleets that they represent.
I am not that concerned about the line itself. I think that
if we can get Wes and Tun at the same time then we are
pretty much done. Spa S Wes, Naf S Tun does not need a
fifth fleet in particular.
> PS - I will be throwing out all kinds of disinformation
> garbaget to both AT - so take anything that they say that
> I am saying with a grain of salt.
Please do entertain me with what they say :-)
Best,
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Dear Andy,
> >> we might be able to talk now.
> I may have been born yesterday, but I stayed up all night,
I have now tried various styles to communicate with you
effectively, with less than terrific success. No doubt, I
should blame myself and rest assured I do work on being a
better person who is not to be disliked.
I can understand that I might be absolutely unbearable for
which I apologize. The other players in this particular
game seem to make an enormous effort to resist the
temptation to send me to hell every now and then which I
appreciate.
From your recent message I assumed that you have something
to discuss with me and I thought that it might be about the
plan for the future in this game. If this is not the case,
then just name the topic and I am happy to chat about
anything.
As for the game, I should probably congratulate on the AT
move on poor Italy. It was indeed well designed and I guess
we are now done as far as the southern line is concerned.
Naturally I retake Mar and I assume that even me going back
to WES and LYO will not be a problem now?
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> > I still do not see how a 2W is possible without Austrian
> > fleets. A carebear yes, but a real one hardly.
>
> Good point.
I just checked, you will need three southern fleets to hold
your line against me eventually. You must take Rom for sure
(and Ven of course) this year and talk away an F Tri build
(security, trust, threat of FRT, whatever, it can be done.
Especially if Turkey does not requests it before the builds,
then it is easy to talk away afterwards).
If you can do this much then let me know. I can make sure
that you have enough time and space to finish the campaign.
Probably you want to do the major stab next fall so that you
can raise a second fleet.
To see if it is indeed possible, we need to have a detailed
working plan. Once you have one, we can discuss it. I am
still not sure if the whole thing is feasible but I
certainly will not stand in the way of a playable scenario.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
You are right....Kill the Russian, lets take a 3 way...
The Turk is convinced that attacking me is the best way to get you a solo.
And he is right.
Andy
Message from Austria to France
> >
> >That is crap....you dont need Tunis or STP if you are taking centers in
> >the middle of the board.
> >
> >
> I do not see four centers in the middle of the board which I could pick
> up while Russia is getting
> stronger and Turkey uses 6-7 armies to stop that.
Russia is not getting stronger, he will hang out and protect his
scandanavian holdings.....
By the orders you sent Turkey....you get VEN up front, and his newly built
armies are going to be in Turkey and slow to get out, he cant use the ones
in Russia, or you get those dots. You can get MUN, BER, NWY, SWE, STP,
TRI, ROM.....
Remember you will have whatever is left of my 7 armies helping you.
But that is totally hypothetical, because the Turk is smart enough or
scared enough not to stab me.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Hi Andy,
> > I do not see four centers in the middle of the board
> > which I could pick up while Russia is getting stronger
> > and Turkey uses 6-7 armies to stop that.
> Russia is not getting stronger, he will hang out and
> protect his scandanavian holdings.....
Well, this started as a debate on how you cannot prevent an
RTF 3-way draw if Turkey wanted to do that, which of course
still stands.
> By the orders you sent Turkey....you get VEN up front, and
> his newly built armies are going to be in Turkey and slow
> to get out, he cant use the ones in Russia, or you get
> those dots. You can get MUN, BER, NWY, SWE, STP, TRI,
> ROM.....
Very funny. Did you see the whole discussion? I am not
passing press but this one I think I can recall off hand:
Turkey: You can talk now
France: Ok, I suggest this: <<here are the orders>>
That was it. You can probably tell from the orders how much
sense they made.
> Remember you will have whatever is left of my 7 armies
> helping you.
Thanks, I am counting on that. :-)
> But that is totally hypothetical, because the Turk is
> smart enough or scared enough not to stab me.
He is certainly not "smart enough". If he wanted to, he
could very easily set up the terms for France which would
make eliminating Austria completely safe. Indeed, so far
you have played extremely well but from now on it is luck.
And I am actually quite happy with that and would be sad if
the Turk turned "smart enough".
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Wait a second,
> Very funny. Did you see the whole discussion? I am not
> passing press but this one I think I can recall off hand:
>
> Turkey: You can talk now
> France: Ok, I suggest this: <<here are the orders>>
>
> That was it. You can probably tell from the orders how much
> sense they made.
To avoid the confusion, the hypothetical proposal I showed
to you was _not_ part of any F-T press. I did suggest him a
few orders this turn but it was a joke.
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> You are right....Kill the Russian, lets take a 3 way...
As I said: I will try to kill Russia, rest assured.
On the theory side:
> The Turk is convinced that attacking me is the best way to
> get you a solo.
> And he is right.
No he is not. Let me show you something more. There is a
two-way line where Mar, Spa goes to the southern power,
Portugal is easily held from the north. All I have to do is
let the Turkish fleets take that line and it is pretty
straightforward, in fact can be done in a season as long as
his fleets are well placed. Then there will be a Turkish
rush for Italian centers while I will take everything north
of Sev and you certainly cannot throw the game to me then.
But one does not need to be that drastic. He can request
that I give Den to Russia and next round he gives Mos to
Russia. That creates a pretty tough northern fortress. You
certainly cannot throw the game to me on the basis that I am
handing over a center to Russia and next year it will be
late. This is the path which would lead towards a 3-way
draw but an easier opportunity to turn it into 2-way (from
Turkey's perspective), because Russia is smaller and at the
same time no worry for him because I will have to take all
(as opposed to he has to take Austria).
I am not saying that I can see a miniscule chance to jump
into either of these scenarios or an alternative. But I
believe you are wrong in saying that you have any long-term
bargaining power left.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> > Very funny. Did you see the whole discussion? I am not
> > passing press but this one I think I can recall off hand:
> >
> > Turkey: You can talk now
> > France: Ok, I suggest this: <<here are the orders>>
> >
> > That was it. You can probably tell from the orders how much
> > sense they made.
>
> To avoid the confusion, the hypothetical proposal I showed
> to you was _not_ part of any F-T press. I did suggest him a
> few orders this turn but it was a joke.
>
He seems to think that you serious....:-)
Message from Austria to France
> I am not saying that I can see a miniscule chance to jump
> into either of these scenarios or an alternative. But I
> believe you are wrong in saying that you have any long-term
> bargaining power left.
Tamas,
All of my arguments work on a basis that
1. You want to solo...so you arent giving dots away.
2. Im a creative enough tactician, that the Turk doesnt want to take that
chance with me.
I think I am pretty safe with those 2 things in place.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> He seems to think that you serious....:-)
In a way I am. I am tired of his "now you can talk"
followed later by his broadcast "shut up". By sending him
the orders (I think I did not have anything more than those
in that message), I thought I could force him to get
involved in some civilized discussion: you know, change of
style, etc. I am not greatly surprised that it did not
work.
But I have yet to understand why he would be rushing to you
with whatever I send him. You won't confirm that an anti-A
plan is indeed good, but then what does he want to achieve?
Plotting me as a bad guy hardly gets him anything more than
he is guaranteed already. (?)
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
> All of my arguments work on a basis that
>
> 1. You want to solo...so you arent giving dots away.
> 2. Im a creative enough tactician, that the Turk doesnt want to take that
> chance with me.
> I think I am pretty safe with those 2 things in place.
I agree. As long as #1 holds, #2 saves your butt. But
where did you get this thing that I am hanging on to
centers? See Mar for example last year.
#2 is good enough but #1 you do not have control over. I
want to solo, indeed, just like you or Dan or Eric. But
_if_ Turkey told me to give up two southern centers (_after_
is is 100% clear that the solo has gone) so that we can
reduce the draw then it would be carebear play not to do it,
would not it?
But again, your fortune will save you I believe because this
Turk will _not_ tell me to give up Mar and Spa and I will
certainly not propose it, which you surely understand (or
will after the game when you see the FT press log).
Tamas
Message from France to Austria and Turkey
Hi Andy,
I just found the perfect solution! Austria has access to
your mailbox and he even responds to the messages which you
leave unanswered. All you have to do is keep forwarding
(maybe I should press to AT?), that takes care of the
continous chat. Therefore this message is really:
press to at
Hi Andys,
Ok, here we go, let me pick up from here:
> Let's not get too quick to jump the gun here, what's the
> hurry.
While I think that often fast action with its surprise
element has its advantages, I sympathize with your
feelings. Here are three alternative suggestions:
1. Naf S Spa-WES-Tun, Lvn S Mos-Stp, ION-Adr, Tys-ION, Nap-ION
With your builds, you can hold Stp as long as you want.
Austria is not stabbed since Russia is enemy. F ADR and
A Apu guarantees that Ven and Tri cannot be thrown to me.
Notice that I will still have to take Mar, I leave Tunis
at your mercy and that you are at most one step away from
every "dangerous" centers - those which Austria claims
can be thrown to me. The 2-way line is east of Ber/Mun
and I am still left with cleaning up Russia while you are
patrolling my army in Tun. In fact this gives some
bargaining power back to Austria, because in that
situation he can throw the game to _you_!!!
2. If you can arrange an accident (Italy might help although
I do not know if he has stopped communication after his
effective death) where Austria does not get Rom or Ven,
then he is confined to one build only. If he does not
build a fleet then your control of the "dangerous" SC's
is still guaranteed. All you have to do is build one
more fleet. You can then safely wait until I rearrange
my units: I can hold the south with armies only plus a
fleet and I can hold the north with fleets only, plus A
Bur and A Ruh. Then you can take Italy in one go with
your carefully positioned fleets and while Austria starts
disbanding, I cannot march into his centers with my
fleets.
3. If you can talk Italy to Pie-Tyr (promise him Rom?), then
I might have a chance to cut Austria's wings in the
north. Meanwhile you take Tunis and I withdraw NaF to
MAO. Austria will not throw the game to his aggressor
while you are doing exactly what he requests. This gives
a chance of him building one only. If I am lucky (and
Russia helps), I might get far enough so that one of your
armies are needed for the line, for example A Gal.
Then a well-designed fall stab achieves what you want.
Food for thought.
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
> Message from tamas.hauer@cern.ch as France to Austria and Turkey in
> 'comments':
Oh well, I seem to have screwed it up. Nevertheless, it is
probably irrelevant.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France and Turkey
Hi Tamas,
> I just found the perfect solution! Austria has access to
> your mailbox and he even responds to the messages which you
> leave unanswered. All you have to do is keep forwarding
> (maybe I should press to AT?), that takes care of the
> continous chat. Therefore this message is really:
And I just found a perfect solution......stop talking to France all
together.
> press to at
>
> Hi Andys,
>
> Ok, here we go, let me pick up from here:
>
> > Let's not get too quick to jump the gun here, what's the
> > hurry.
>
> While I think that often fast action with its surprise
> element has its advantages, I sympathize with your
> feelings. Here are three alternative suggestions:
>
> 1. Naf S Spa-WES-Tun, Lvn S Mos-Stp, ION-Adr, Tys-ION, Nap-ION
Which the Russian can cut and stop.....and you turn over Tunis to the
French.
> With your builds, you can hold Stp as long as you want.
> Austria is not stabbed since Russia is enemy. F ADR and
> A Apu guarantees that Ven and Tri cannot be thrown to me.
> Notice that I will still have to take Mar, I leave Tunis
> at your mercy and that you are at most one step away from
> every "dangerous" centers - those which Austria claims
> can be thrown to me. The 2-way line is east of Ber/Mun
> and I am still left with cleaning up Russia while you are
> patrolling my army in Tun. In fact this gives some
> bargaining power back to Austria, because in that
> situation he can throw the game to _you_!!!
You make this QUITE appealing in the short term....but not in the long
term.
You can take MAR any time you want, you can have 5 fleets in the Med next
in 2 turns.......if you want.
So ....explain this to me....what happens to the middle of the map, when
all of his armies are stuck in Russia...I can keep them there, and I walk
off the stalemate line and straight back toward him disbanding in the
rear, as you take my dots.
Show me which stalemate lines he gets to in order to protect his holdings
and keep you from soloing....
> 2. If you can arrange an accident (Italy might help although
> I do not know if he has stopped communication after his
> effective death) where Austria does not get Rom or Ven,
> then he is confined to one build only. If he does not
> build a fleet then your control of the "dangerous" SC's
> is still guaranteed. All you have to do is build one
> more fleet. You can then safely wait until I rearrange
> my units: I can hold the south with armies only plus a
> fleet and I can hold the north with fleets only, plus A
> Bur and A Ruh. Then you can take Italy in one go with
> your carefully positioned fleets and while Austria starts
> disbanding, I cannot march into his centers with my
> fleets.
BLAH BLAH BLAH....if you can keep the Austrian from building...BLAH BLAH
BLAH..
There is a saying in FtF play.
" If someone has the ability and inclination to throw a solo, it is
foolish to attempt to cut them out of the draw"
Andrew has played FtF with me. He knows what kind of player I am.
He and you have assured his place in the draw with this incessent babble
about STAB Austria, STAB Austria, STAB Austria.....
While you announce publically that you wont take a draw with Turkey. Its
going to be a hell of a tough time taking a 2 way draw if you wont take it
with Turkey.
You know as well as I, that the 2WD is the biggest lie in
Diplomacy...bigger than *I wont go to Galacia" and *I will support you
into Belgium*....if you want some non-Diplomacy euphamisms, I will gladly
provide them.
Tamas ...I appreciate the fact that you are trying to win this
game....this is getting pathetic and OLD.
> Food for thought.
Suicide for thought.
Message from France to Austria and Turkey
Hallo!
>And I just found a perfect solution......stop talking to France all
>together.
>
>
Ah, you have it already. But ... if I may ... why? I mean one cannot
be _that_ scared,
I have yet to see someone being hurt by talking alone. (Of course, I
can see how it is
good for _you_ if FT do not talk...) Maybe in FtF where you might
be the target of physical insult.... or wait, is this what you are
referring to when you
are threatening the Sultan always mentioning your FtF experience :-)?
>" If someone has the ability and inclination to throw a solo, it is
>foolish to attempt to cut them out of the draw"
>
Thanks for this, I have not heard this saying. You see: there is no
problem with this. All
Turkey has to say is No and I have no doubt that it will arrive shortly
in the form of his
usual broadcast. I really do not think that you have anything to be
afraid of (as I told you
many times).
>Andrew has played FtF with me. He knows what kind of player I am.
>
Well, at this point we all have some picture of what kind of a player
you are. But there is
another saying in Diplomacy: "Threats are useless". I bet you agree.
Look at Andrew. We
have been bashing his style for some time, which is indeed quite
different from ours. But
no question, he has accomplished his goals with flying colors. And if
this is to be considered
to be a testament of his playing skills (which I believe it is), then I
am sure he will not make
his decisions based on outspoken threats. I really do not think that
you saying "I will throw
to France" makes much difference, it is pretty obvivous, he knows it
very very well that
_if_ you can do it then you will do it. No question about it.
>He and you have assured his place in the draw with this incessent babble
>about STAB Austria, STAB Austria, STAB Austria.....
>
>
You would be quite surprised how little "STAB Austria" has been there.
Yes, I assured his place
in the draw, but what are my choices? If I let him be cut out then it
is 3WD or 4WD because the
powers opposing France are more or less equal and complement each other.
By assuring his
place in the draw, the theoretical possiblity of the 2WD remains. I
strongly doubt that it will happen
but it was clearly the way to go.
>While you announce publically that you wont take a draw with Turkey. Its
>going to be a hell of a tough time taking a 2 way draw if you wont take it
>with Turkey.
>
>
Well, again I do not think that it needs a public announcement to
declare that someone wants to
be a member of a draw as small as possible. You yourself have been
telling me (I can count
7-8 occasions the past 3 years) that you want a 2WD including A and F.
Now, as is apparent
from this very discussion, my view is that the endgame is not for
deception, details can and should
be worked out on a logical basis. In accord with this, I have told you
every time, that I do not
see it playable. And that is the sad truth: FT is possible, FA is not.
I could have told you: sure,
stab Turkey, we'll do it but I did not see any use of it.
>You know as well as I, that the 2WD is the biggest lie in
>Diplomacy...bigger than *I wont go to Galacia" and *I will support you
>into Belgium*....if you want some non-Diplomacy euphamisms, I will gladly
>provide them.
>
No, I do not know that. And in fact I very very strongly disagree. I
am telling you that if I was
playing Turkey in this game, and France would accept my demands (which -
as France, I would),
then it would end in a 2WD. I really do not think that you could stop
that. Just think about the
plan which I showed you (not the Sultan).
And I agree - if that is to be implied from your message - that 2WD is
harder than a solo in most
cases. For that reason I view it as the most noble result in any
Diplomacy game. No, I certainly
disagree with it being a lie. As a matter of fact I do not agree with
"I am not going to Galicia" and
similar being a lie, but for completely different reasons. Rest
assured, if in our next game I tell
you that I will not go to Gal, then you can bet I won't. (Especially if
I am France :-))
>Tamas ...I appreciate the fact that you are trying to win this
>game....this is getting pathetic and OLD.
>
>
I apologize for this. You are probably true. I am having fun but will
gladly stop if you guys
are tired of it (you do not have to tell, I can see). Oh well.
>Suicide for thought.
>
>
I wonder if Turkey appreciates the repetition of these verbal threats.
Saying it again and again
implies that he is too dumb to realize the threat on his own. And I do
not think that is the case.
Best,
Tamas
Message from France to Austria and Turkey
>While you announce publically that you wont take a draw with Turkey.
>
I regret this very much. It was born out of emotion and purely in reply
to his declaration that
he will not take a draw including Russia.
Message from Austria to France and Turkey
Tamas,
Just to clarify.
> I wonder if Turkey appreciates the repetition of these verbal threats.
> Saying it again and again
> implies that he is too dumb to realize the threat on his own. And I do
> not think that is the case.
But a bad plan that goes un-refuted can gain acceptance.
And my statements arent threats, Andrew and I have discussed in depth what
would happen if either of us stabbed.
And I agree with you when you say that Andrew has played an exceptionally
strong game. He has reached his goals, within his own style of play and
that alone is to be praised.
Andy
Message from France to Austria and Turkey
Andrews,
> But a bad plan that goes un-refuted can gain acceptance.
Which is true both ways and seems to be happening at this
very moment when Turkey leans to your demands. I think that
we can see you repeating your threat in every paragraph
exactly because you agree with me, that is that your real
bargaining power is gone. But again: this is theoretical
and indeed I better stop here.
Tamas
Message from Turkey to Austria and France
Austria,
I thought you were gone this weekend?
Anyway, I'm not stabbing you, if for no other reason than I would have to rely
on France for both moves and telling the truth.
I have done well in this game because:
1) I have never had to rely on French moves..not once.
2) I have never had to rely on what the French say...not once.
Sure he has offered it many times, but I saw how he rolled England and Germany,
after both of them attacking him. And everyone else has said that he lies all
the time, etc. He hasn't lied to me becuase I have never given him the chance.
I don't see that this game will end in anything other than a 3WD. Everyone will
see how France got so close to a solo, but failed because of his poor diplomacy
skills. We have done well with the much different situation handed us, and for
us a 3WD is a pretty good result. I don't think anyone could look at the moves
(After the game is over) and blame us anywhere. France on the otherhand was
extremely greedy.
Turkey
Message from France to Austria and Turkey
> Sure he has offered it many times, but I saw how he rolled England and Germany,
> after both of them attacking him.
Whereas your rolling of Russia and Italy without them attacking you is
much more noble. If you really think that I attacked England or Germany
because they attacked me, then ... well, we do have a different picture
of the game.
> And everyone else has said that he lies all the time, etc.
Everybody means here whom? Italy? Russia? England? I strongly doubt
it. That leaves us with Austria and possibly Germany. But I cannot
recall much lies there either, of course it hardly matters.
> He hasn't lied to me becuase I have never given him the chance.
You must be very proud of yourself. You lied to me many times but I do
not consider it a failure of my diplomacy. So the math is that I am
being punished for lying to everybody else except Turkey. Funny, when I
first discussed the 2WD in 1901, I thought that this is pretty much
which would please you.
But again, as I have been trying to explain in great detail: the endgame
is not about lies. Of course you do not trust me. Of course I do not
trust you. But if you reject _any_ plan without sitting down to
consider whether it is feasible without the need to trust me, then do
not be _that_ extremely proud of the 3WD.
> I don't see that this game will end in anything other than a 3WD.
It is mostly up to you. Austria has no say in it.
> Everyone will see how France got so close to a solo, but failed because
> of his poor diplomacy skills.
You are right of course but you are now pushing the 3WD as opposed to
the 2WD just to show how bad I am. And in the process you are
forgetting that indeed the 3WD is a good result for you, the miss of the
2WD will be the testament of _your_ diplomatic skills.
> We have done well with the much different situation handed us, and for
> us a 3WD is a pretty good result.
As I remember, the situation which was handed to us was 7 roughly equal
powers in the beginning. Yes, the 3WD is pretty good result for all of
us. Or are you talking about a different situation? Consider 1904
where Turkey was on 7 and France was on 5. Or where exactly do you want
to start from?
> I don't think anyone could look at the moves (After the game is over)
> and blame us anywhere.
> France on the otherhand was extremely greedy.
Like when? I do not remember a single demand of you which I rejected.
At the same time, I really thank you Andy for talking to me. I really
appreciate all your criticism which will no doubt make a contribution to
me playing my next diplomacy game better. I mean it very seriously.
Tamas
Message from France to Italy and Russia
Guys, I must give up on my principle of no presspassing. This message
is just so "interesting" that it would not be fair if you did not know
about it. At the same time, it would be nice if you did not leak that I
passed it on. Thanks.
tamas
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey to Austria and France in
> 'comments':
> [...]
> I have done well in this game because:
>
> 1) I have never had to rely on French moves..not once.
> 2) I have never had to rely on what the French say...not once.
>
> Sure he has offered it many times, but I saw how he rolled England and Germany,
> after both of them attacking him. And everyone else has said that he lies all
> the time, etc. He hasn't lied to me becuase I have never given him the chance.
>
> I don't see that this game will end in anything other than a 3WD. Everyone will
> see how France got so close to a solo, but failed because of his poor diplomacy
> skills. We have done well with the much different situation handed us, and for
> us a 3WD is a pretty good result. I don't think anyone could look at the moves
> (After the game is over) and blame us anywhere. France on the otherhand was
> extremely greedy.
Message from France to Austria
Hi Andy,
> I have done well in this game because:
> 1) I have never had to rely on French moves..not once.
> 2) I have never had to rely on what the French say...not once.
>
> Everyone else has said that he lies all the time. He hasn't lied to me
> becuase I have never given him the chance.
>
> I don't see that this game will end in anything other than a 3WD. Everyone will
> see how France got so close to a solo, but failed because of his poor diplomacy
> skills. We have done well with the much different situation handed us, and for
> us a 3WD is a pretty good result. I don't think anyone could look at the moves
> (After the game is over) and blame us anywhere. France on the otherhand was
> extremely greedy.
I will probably hang this on the wall. Too bad I am on the losing side,
you on the other hand seem to have the privilege of working with
*HIM*!!! If anything, I can certainly learn some self confidence from
Andrew, I do not think I have seen this much in two paragraph to this
moment.
;-)
Tamas
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> Well, what do you think?
I think we're providing an entertaining endgame for the
commentators. ;-)
> Even after our exchange last night I would have sworn that
> I am being set up. Apparently not, shame on me.
I just didn't believe the Turk enough to buy into AIRT.
> I am also sorry for NTH,
Understandable caution.
> I could use that fleet in the south.
It won't bother me if you do, though it will majorly annoy
the Austrian. *grin*
> So what's the story today? According to press from the
> east, I doubt they give you Moscow.
Probably not, but it's still worth the attempt, I'd say.
Tell Austria you ordering the support for StP-Mos,
and that you're hoping he won't since it will put me
firmly in your camp.
> Shall we try to outguess them with Mun/Ber,
> using maybe the retreated A Pie which cuts
> Tyr's support?
Ruh S Hel-Kie, Kie-Bal-Pru has potential, I think. ;-)
Nicky.
Message from Italy to France
Tamas,
Well, I have talked things over with Russia. I think that we can agree in
principle to try and get to the position where you have 16 centers, with
me in Tunis and him in Berlin. Or, alternatively, you on 15, with me
additionally in Marseilles.
I think that this probably offers you your best (only) chance at a solo.
The plan for us would be to tell A/T that if they don't set draw then we
would throw you the solo. And with the people that we have running A/T,
I'd say the odds are at least decent that we'll end up throwing. Don't
you think so, especially given that last press from TUrkey that you sent
our way?
So, what do you think?
I mean, if you're content with a FAT 3-way, you might as well just take it
now and not wrangle with all this. But I think this ( the above) leads
to your only shot at a solo, which I'm sure is your top goal.
Mario
Message from France to Italy
Mario,
I have read your proposal. I was thinking about answering to IR but
though that maybe you have reservations. So here are my thoughts for
you first.
I see three problematic points about your proposition. First, I do not
share your view that there is a non-negligible chance of them not
setting 5W draw. Even if they do not want to, what are their
alternatives? Or maybe you were thinking about giving them one season's
worth of chance to set draw only? The second problem is that that I see
no way of me giving any material guarantee that I keep my end of the
deal. Surely it would not be wise to reject your proposal, because it
is clear that I have no solo chances against 4 of you. But you can
hardly enforce it.
Finally, (and you may appreciate my honestly noticing this in time :-():
there is a major technical flaw in your plan: there is no way to know
who sets draw until everybody does. This means that all I have to do is
not set draw and say that I did. This is as far as you can get to
obtain the necessary information before throwing me the solo.
These were the minuses, now come the plus side.
1. Yes you are right: the solo has been my only goal since the beginning
of the game, it is still and will be until I am convinced that it is
lost. I have not thought about draw-plans yet seriously.
2. I am playing for fun and for the intellectual challenge which the
game provides. If the game is F against RIAT then there is no more
play. (Of course if you are not "throwing", then it is still F against
RIAT: in your elimination you are working for them). The FRI against AT
is still a very challenging feat, quite nontrivial. Of course I accept
your proposal: if the three of us can get 18, that's a win. I
absolutely do not mind sharing it with you guys, in fact it would be
quite fun to do so.
3. The game is really about F against AT. As far as I can see, Italy is
dead now. The only thing to do for you is to submit orders for your
live units. These orders (by definition) will support either side. It
is your decision which side you join. I do not think that throwing a
solo is morally worse than throwing a draw to the opponents but I can
see that your proposal might eliminate some of the moral issues.
All in all, I will accept basically anything which assures that the
endgame be interesting and which gives us chance to get those 18. I see
problems with the technical details of the pact you propose and there
might be others. It might be a good idea to straighten these out at
some point. But I am certainly NOT content with FAT in any way and I am
certainly more than interested in fighting out what's left in this game.
Tamas
Message from France to Russia
Hi Nicky,
Just a few notes, we need to discuss more after the
retreats. There are times when I think that Turkey's talk
is just a pose - hard to imagine that he means what he says
(I am not referring to the passed-on message only).
> > I am also sorry for NTH,
>
> Understandable caution.
>
> > I could use that fleet in the south.
>
> It won't bother me if you do, though it will majorly annoy
> the Austrian. *grin*
I do not really understand it. How is it a concern for
Austria?
> > So what's the story today? According to press from the
> > east, I doubt they give you Moscow.
>
> Probably not, but it's still worth the attempt, I'd say.
Hard to imagine anything else than Sev S Mos, do not you
think?
> Tell Austria you ordering the support for StP-Mos, and
> that you're hoping he won't since it will put me firmly in
> your camp.
If you could elaborate, I would appreciate very much. I am
probably too slow, but I have to admit I do not understand
any of this.
> > Shall we try to outguess them with Mun/Ber, using maybe
> > the retreated A Pie which cuts Tyr's support?
>
> Ruh S Hel-Kie, Kie-Bal-Pru has potential, I think. ;-)
I do not know (yet). Hard to imagine that noone goes to Pru
this season.
Tamas
Message from Russia to France
Tamas,
> > > I could use that fleet in the south.
> >
> > It won't bother me if you do, though it will majorly annoy
> > the Austrian. *grin*
>
> I do not really understand it. How is it a concern for
> Austria?
Sorry, not tactically, but he's been telling me what an idiot
I am for convoying you to Lvn. He says I've given you
the ability to eliminate me whenever you want. So, if you
moved Nth-Ech-MAO, he'd be annoyed that I had handed
you the knife and you didn't use it.
> Hard to imagine anything else than Sev S Mos, do not you
> think?
Certainly, but War S StP-Mos is not completely out of the
question.
> > Tell Austria you ordering the support for StP-Mos, and
> > that you're hoping he won't since it will put me firmly in
> > your camp.
>
> If you could elaborate, I would appreciate very much. I am
> probably too slow, but I have to admit I do not understand
> any of this.
Austria was supposed to support StP-Mos, Bal-Lvn this Fall
while Turkey ordered Mos-Lvn, Sev-Mos again. I'd get Mos,
Turkey would disband A Mos and build another Fleet. If you
support StP-Mos, and he doesn't, I end up favoring your Solo
attempt.
> I do not know (yet). Hard to imagine that noone goes to Pru
> this season.
Who can? Sil S Ber is needed to defend against Bal S Kie-Ber,
and he can't really order War-Pru and allow Lvn-War to
succeed, can he?
Nicky.
Message from France to Russia
Hi Nicky,
>>I do not really understand it. How is it a concern for
>>Austria?
>>
>>
>
>Sorry, not tactically, but he's been telling me what an idiot
>I am for convoying you to Lvn. He says I've given you
>the ability to eliminate me whenever you want. So, if you
>moved Nth-Ech-MAO, he'd be annoyed that I had handed
>you the knife and you didn't use it.
>
>
But why is he concerned that I can eliminate you whenever I want. By
now, his
signature appears to be "kill Russia ASAP", that is I have not received
a message
from him for some time which did not have something like this in the end.
>>Hard to imagine anything else than Sev S Mos, do not you
>>think?
>>
>>
>
>Certainly, but War S StP-Mos is not completely out of the
>question.
>
>
Unless A and/or T are faking in a highly expert way (doubt, doubt), the
only conclusion
which I can draw from the ATF conversation (which does inlcude a handful of
messages) is that they do not even think about anything else than
closing the AT
line on their 17 centers for good. Austria did mention the AF two-way
many times
but - as we discussed with him - it is virtually impossible due to him
lacking the
fleets (unless carebear). FRT is possible if Turkey wanted to do that -
which is his
choice really, neither A nor F has that much say in it - and if Austria
supports you to Mos
then he invites Turkey doing so.
If you guys are going for FAR, that's a different story. Based on
Turkey's mails he
is not likely to throw to me in that scenario but even than I am not
sure it is possible.
Would you care to tell me what's on your mind? I am pretty curious :-)
>>>Tell Austria you ordering the support for StP-Mos, and
>>>that you're hoping he won't since it will put me firmly in
>>>your camp.
>>>
>>>
>>If you could elaborate, I would appreciate very much. I am
>>probably too slow, but I have to admit I do not understand
>>any of this.
>>
>>
>
>Austria was supposed to support StP-Mos, Bal-Lvn this Fall
>while Turkey ordered Mos-Lvn, Sev-Mos again. I'd get Mos,
>Turkey would disband A Mos and build another Fleet. If you
>support StP-Mos, and he doesn't, I end up favoring your Solo
>attempt.
>
>
But then how is this compatible with Kie-Pru? And again, what makes you
think
that Austria will order the support? I really cannot see him doing it,
but if you think
that is on the cards...
My concern is the following. My solo chances are not that good really.
There is some
talk with Italy and I understand that he has been talking to you too.
It would be good
to know how much he has told you, maybe we can open up part of the
discussion
to FIR. At the same time the solo bid is quite nontrivial still. AT
are sitting on their
17-center line and some good guesswork on their part solidify it pretty
soon. I have
absolutely no objection against Lvn S Stp-Mos but I do worry that you
ending up
favoring my solo attempt might be empty because the lost opportunity,
possibly as
early as after the fall.
I think the bottom line in any case is whether Austria promises you the
support, but even
then I would not bet 2cents on it :-(. Do you by the way talk to them
(A and T?)
>>I do not know (yet). Hard to imagine that noone goes to Pru
>>this season.
>>
>>
>
>Who can? Sil S Ber is needed to defend against Bal S Kie-Ber,
>and he can't really order War-Pru and allow Lvn-War to
>succeed, can he?
>
>
Depending on how much Andy spends on thinking, I would say that both
War-Pru and
Sil-Pru are distinct possibilities. He might for example easily decide
that Pie-Tyr is to
be expected, in which case he has to make a guess between defending Ber
or Mun.
That makes Sil-Pru quite plausible. War-Pru is a somewhat wilder guess
but as I said,
the game is not guess-free so he must make some decisions.
Tamas
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea → Tuscany
Italy: Army Venice → Piedmont
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