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Message from Turkey to France
>
>Andy, why do not you tell me what you _really_ want. You know well what
>I want,
yes, you want me to do something prematurely and then have Austria
throw you the game for a solo.
Just back up, and then either Austria can take some centers from you
or move toward you to attack and I can attack Austria. If you don't
move any further back, then you might as well set draw because a 3WD
it will be. (and Austria and I have been setting draw every turn)
So basically, I disagree...it is you that decides everything.
Message from Austria to France
Tamas....are you not speaking to me.
Message from France to Turkey
>Just back up...
It seems that this is probably as far as we could get with your request for
a reasonable discussion of a plan.
>So basically, I disagree...it is you that decides everything.
As in what? Yes, I can decide to give centers to Austria for absolutely
no reason and set draw two years later or three. In this sense indeed I
decide everything now.
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>Tamas....are you not speaking to me.
Sorry, I am at a conference, that's why the apparent silence.
Apart from that, there is really nothing I can say, but I am more than happy
to answer on any points.
Tamas
Message from France to France
I am setting draw now.
Message from Austria to France
>
> >Tamas....are you not speaking to me.
>
> Sorry, I am at a conference, that's why the apparent silence.
> Apart from that, there is really nothing I can say, but I am more than happy
> to answer on any points.
>
> Tamas
>
Are you going to set draw.
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>Are you going to set draw.
Why do you keep asking? It should not influence what you are doing, does
it? But yes, I am setting draw.
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
sorry, this is an earlier one, did not get through
>Andy,
>
>I do not waste my bandwidth for agreeing with your assessment of Turkey,
>as far as I am concerned, the game seems to be over indeed, I am setting
>draw. I hope that you will have no hard feelings for me trying everything
>possible until the very last minute.
>
>Finally. As I said, I have indeed done everything, which I wanted to do
>in this game. It will probably end this season. Still, if you want and
>you think you can fight Turkey, I encourage you to do it. I will not back
>up further, there is no point in doing so, but I will hold or assist you
>if you need it.
>I do not think that you believe me, although I mean it seriously because
>1. that just seems to be right (as I said, I skip the reasoning here) 2.
>I have finished my part of the game. I never lied to you and I do not find
>it useful to do it now either. Do whatever you want and I do not mind if
>you just laugh off this message. At least it's a piece of entertainment
>:-)
>
>As a final thought, let me give a quick interpretation of the above (where
>I stand). I consider my plan for this game successful and I think I should
>have soloed, that is Italy should have thrown the game to me. That he did
>not finally do it does not make much difference: bad luck is part of the
>game and there are things which one just cannot influence. This is the
sense
>in which my "the game ended" should be understood.
>
>Best,
>
>Tamas
>
Message from Austria to France
Tamas,
I deleted your re-sent post to me...
I suggest you wait for EOGs....I have alot to say there.
take care
Andy
Message from Austria to France
Im settng draw as well
Message from Turkey to France
> >Just back up...
>
> It seems that this is probably as far as we could get with your request for
> a reasonable discussion of a plan.
There is no question that up until now, and including now, you basically have
wanted me to attack Austria. I will not be able to eliminate Austria and then
you will solo as Austria will throw the game to you.
I know this.
You know this.
I am just writing it for the Observers so that they know I know.
Either just set draw, or back up.
Message from France to Turkey
>There is no question that up until now, and including now, you basically
>have
>wanted me to attack Austria. I will not be able to eliminate Austria and
>then
>you will solo as Austria will throw the game to you.
>
>I know this.
>
>You know this.
>
>I am just writing it for the Observers so that they know I know.
1. There is no question that players want to win the game (including me)
2. There is no question that one player alone cannot produce a 2-way draw.
3. There is no question that letting Austria grow will not produce a 2-way
draw.
You just cannot break off the prison of France wants you to do this and this.
Why on earth would you care what I want you to do? If you do not want to
do it then do not do it, it is that simple. But for dip's sake, would not
it look better in the history books if you just stood up and said "Tamas,
I do not feel confident in executing your 2-way plan and I do not have the
time/willingness to work it out so that I like it/understand it!" than this
pointless crying on France wanting to turn a game into a solo if the opportunity
arises?
???
Tamas
Message from France to Turkey
Andy,
On a side note, I have started setting draw as of this season, which means
that the game will indeed end if you set draw. Do not set draw if you think
you want/can do a better result. It's all about what you want from now,
the ball is back in your court :-)
take care
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
Tamas....
I hope you are having a great weekend.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>Tamas....
>
>I hope you are having a great weekend.
Oh, that's very kind of you. As a matter of fact I am in Austria at a conference
and most of the time I am working, but indeed last night we
spent the night in a Jazz Bar in Vieanna. Pretty cool stuff.
I also spent quite a bit writing my EOG. Mostly done.
How are you then?
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
Tamas,
> Oh, that's very kind of you. As a matter of fact I am in Austria at a conference
> and most of the time I am working, but indeed last night we
> spent the night in a Jazz Bar in Vieanna. Pretty cool stuff.
>
I love jazz. And I am told that Vienna is beautiful.
How is the weather this time of year.
> I also spent quite a bit writing my EOG. Mostly done.
> How are you then?
Im ok.
Weather here is stifling and my Air is on the fritz....
How soon do you think this will be over?? Have you currently set draw??
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>I love jazz.
Me too, mostly the style of Pat Metheny. But this was a little different,
there was a group (sort of OK), they played some good old jazz songs but
halfway through we all (it was for the conference - in fact a school - exclusively)
got drunk enough to dance so we ended up with music like "I will survive"
and the like, not quite jazz but pretty effective with a week's day-and-night
work behind the people...
>And I am told that Vienna is beautiful.
Oh, you should know it well, you are the Kaiser there are not you? But yes,
Vienna is very nice, of course for me (I am from Budapest) this was not the
first time I saw it. Especially if you are into European history then Vienna
is a very good place to go: they were involved in almost everything after
500 A.D and kept the buildings/statues all the way, so walking there is like
reading a history book.
>How is the weather this time of year.
It has been hot all the week while we were locked in the computer rooms but
of course it rained all day when we went to Vienna.
>Weather here is stifling and my Air is on the fritz....
Excuse my education but I do not quite get it.
>How soon do you think this will be over?? Have you currently set draw??
No idea. My draw is in. Turkey sent me something on Saturday. Basically
the story here is that either (i) I should give you centers so that you occupy
equal numbers on both sides of the stalemate line, then we go for the two-way,
or (ii) I should draw him a plan which can be discussed in a fair way.
Now, I had told him many times that (i) does not lead to a two-way because
then we are talking about a 14-center Austria, but he does not seem to get
it. The standard reply is "just pull back". As far as (ii) is concerned,
I am not really interested in doing his homework, but the truth is that I
have already gave him more than one plans to work with (discuss, criticize,...)
but he does not seem to want to waste his braincells and anyway, it has the
tendency of ending up in one of his broadcasts which I am not a big fan of.
This is where we stand now. Whenever I log in I am sure that the game has
already ended but it seems that he cannot make up his mind. It is interesting
though that he claims to have been setting draw for a long time, and blames
me for the game not ending, still he writes me messages without setting draw
at the same time. We'll see.
Oh, I almost forgot. Are not you supposed to throw me the game as required
by the agreement with Italy/Russia/Austria? In case you forgot about it,
let's get the details straighted before Turkey closes the door!
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> >I love jazz.
>
> Me too, mostly the style of Pat Metheny. But this was a little different,
> there was a group (sort of OK), they played some good old jazz songs but
> halfway through we all (it was for the conference - in fact a school -
exclusively)
> got drunk enough to dance so we ended up with music like "I will survive"
> and the like, not quite jazz but pretty effective with a week's day-and-night
> work behind the people...
Well..if you have been working day and night for a week.....I think its
excusable, as long as you had fun.
> >And I am told that Vienna is beautiful.
>
> Oh, you should know it well, you are the Kaiser there are not you? But yes,
> Vienna is very nice, of course for me (I am from Budapest) this was not the
> first time I saw it. Especially if you are into European history then Vienna
> is a very good place to go: they were involved in almost everything after
> 500 A.D and kept the buildings/statues all the way, so walking there is like
> reading a history book.
I love history and its one of the places I will see before I die.
> >Weather here is stifling and my Air is on the fritz....
>
> Excuse my education but I do not quite get it.
Not your education....I keep forgetting that english isnt your first
language and using all sorts of colloquialisms.
The weather here is very hot and very humid and the air conditioning in my
house broke 3 days ago. So it have been miserable here.
> >How soon do you think this will be over?? Have you currently set draw??
>
> No idea. My draw is in.
As is mine.
Turkey sent me something on Saturday. Basically
> the story here is that either (i) I should give you centers so that you occupy
> equal numbers on both sides of the stalemate line, then we go for the two-way,
> or (ii) I should draw him a plan which can be discussed in a fair way.
>
He is such a piece of work.
> This is where we stand now. Whenever I log in I am sure that the game has
> already ended but it seems that he cannot make up his mind.
This has been my feeling for some time.
It is interesting
> though that he claims to have been setting draw for a long time, and blames
> me for the game not ending, still he writes me messages without setting draw
> at the same time. We'll see.
He is lying.
> Oh, I almost forgot. Are not you supposed to throw me the game as required
> by the agreement with Italy/Russia/Austria? In case you forgot about it,
> let's get the details straighted before Turkey closes the door!
We shall see.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>He is lying.
I do not mind that, but I am infinitely tired of his childish talk.
>I love history and its one of the places I will see before I die.
Just make sure that Geneve or Budapest is part of your schedule, then we
should go out for a wine (French or Hungarian) - well, you also have to guess
right which city I am in at that moment :-).
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
Tamas,
> I do not mind that, but I am infinitely tired of his childish talk.
As am I.
>
> >I love history and its one of the places I will see before I die.
>
> Just make sure that Geneve or Budapest is part of your schedule, then we
> should go out for a wine (French or Hungarian) - well, you also have to guess
> right which city I am in at that moment :-).
I will just send you email before I go.
Is there any chance you will be at the World Championships next July in
Birmingham, England.
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>Is there any chance you will be at the World Championships next July in
>Birmingham, England.
I doubt it. For one, I am not an FtF player, in fact I played about ten
FtF games altogether but none(!) to completion. The other thing is that
my free time is pretty tight: once you have a family, you do not have enough
time for friends and on top of it living so far from Hungary most of our
holidays are sucked up for visiting grandparents and old friends back there.
So it is pretty unlikely. BUT. There is a non-negligible chance that we
move to England next year. In fact I am going there for three months in
two weeks time and if that works out I might go again in a similar fashion
at least. And of course if I happen to be in England at the time then I
give it a serious thought.
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
>
> >Is there any chance you will be at the World Championships next July in
> >Birmingham, England.
>
> I doubt it. For one, I am not an FtF player, in fact I played about ten
> FtF games altogether but none(!) to completion.
I think you would be a fine FtF player.
The other thing is that
> my free time is pretty tight: once you have a family, you do not have enough
> time for friends and on top of it living so far from Hungary most of our
> holidays are sucked up for visiting grandparents and old friends back there.
> So it is pretty unlikely.
Where do you live....I thought you were in Hungary now??
BUT. There is a non-negligible chance that we
> move to England next year. In fact I am going there for three months in
> two weeks time and if that works out I might go again in a similar fashion
> at least. And of course if I happen to be in England at the time then I
> give it a serious thought.
If you are in England...I would highly recommend it. And I would very much
enjoy meeting you.
take care
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>I think you would be a fine FtF player.
Probably not. At least not if my idea of how a good FtF player succeeds
is right. I am guessing that in FtF you concentrate on the board, make up
your mind about your moves pretty fast and try to negotiate forcefully.
I usually have little idea what I order until right before the the turn.
(If this had been an FtF game, I would have been eliminated around 1903,
unlike in PBEM where the IEG-attack actually worked _for_ me on the long
run.) I prefer chatting (about anything from wether to Jazz and Vienna :-))
the more the better and try to guess what others want to do based on the
personality and accidentally leaked pieces of information. Then I look at
what orders are still allowed for me after my negotiations and pick the one
which is better (and most neutral if possible). And I spend an awfully lot
of time talking to the people on the other end of the table. In FtF where
you have to make alliances and plan strategies and have almost no time to
talk to your enemies, I would be lost.
>Where do you live....I thought you were in Hungary now??
I live in Geneve but I was born in Hungary. This August I visited my parents
for a 3-week holiday and from there I drove to Krems, Austria where I am
now until the weekend. Then I drive back to Geneve.
best,
Tamas
Message from Austria to France
> >I think you would be a fine FtF player.
>
> Probably not. At least not if my idea of how a good FtF player succeeds
> is right. I am guessing that in FtF you concentrate on the board, make up
> your mind about your moves pretty fast and try to negotiate forcefully.
> I usually have little idea what I order until right before the the turn.
> (If this had been an FtF game, I would have been eliminated around 1903,
> unlike in PBEM where the IEG-attack actually worked _for_ me on the long
> run.) I prefer chatting (about anything from wether to Jazz and Vienna :-))
> the more the better and try to guess what others want to do based on the
> personality and accidentally leaked pieces of information. Then I look at
> what orders are still allowed for me after my negotiations and pick the one
> which is better (and most neutral if possible). And I spend an awfully lot
> of time talking to the people on the other end of the table. In FtF where
> you have to make alliances and plan strategies and have almost no time to
> talk to your enemies, I would be lost.
You would need to manage your time much better...but there is usually more
time than you would think.
And plenty of time to speak with your enemies.
> >Where do you live....I thought you were in Hungary now??
>
> I live in Geneve but I was born in Hungary. This August I visited my parents
> for a 3-week holiday and from there I drove to Krems, Austria where I am
> now until the weekend. Then I drive back to Geneve.
Geneve= Geneva, Switzerland.
Andy
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>You would need to manage your time much better...but there is usually more
>time than you would think.
Maybe. Still I find PBEM the ideal way to play this game and it happened
to me more than once that I played with friends and we were frustrated that
for 7 hours we cannot talk about life. But that is a completely different
point, unrelated to the discussion.
>Geneve= Geneva, Switzerland.
Right. It is actually Genève (=Geneva=Genf).
t
Message from Austria to France
>
> Maybe. Still I find PBEM the ideal way to play this game and it happened
> to me more than once that I played with friends and we were frustrated that
> for 7 hours we cannot talk about life. But that is a completely different
> point, unrelated to the discussion.
I understand. I have a large local group of FtF players. Several ranked in
the top 50 in the world.
> >Geneve= Geneva, Switzerland.
>
> Right. It is actually Genève (=Geneva=Genf).
Yes.....another city that I will visit before I die....
I am told its so beautiful.
Message from France to Austria
Andy,
>Yes.....another city that I will visit before I die....
>
>I am told its so beautiful.
Nowhere near Vienna or Budapest. The city is one of the greatest to live
and there are indeed a few places which are beautiful but much less than
in many other cities of Europe. What makes Geneve exceptional is the way
it is situated: at the tip of the Lake Geneve, (where the river Rhones flows
out of the lake) the mediterranean-like climate and most importantly the
surrounding 3000m+ mountains, (http://www.pbase.com/hauer/alps). You can
best appreciate this place if you come here for a longer time and you are
into hiking (I go above 2000m every weekend). And it is a very international
city which of course for me is quite good too.
T
Message from Austria to France
>
> >Yes.....another city that I will visit before I die....
> >
> >I am told its so beautiful.
>
> Nowhere near Vienna or Budapest. The city is one of the greatest to live
> and there are indeed a few places which are beautiful but much less than
> in many other cities of Europe.
I will take your word for that.
What makes Geneve exceptional is the way
> it is situated: at the tip of the Lake Geneve, (where the river Rhones flows
> out of the lake) the mediterranean-like climate and most importantly the
> surrounding 3000m+ mountains, (http://www.pbase.com/hauer/alps).
Tamas, these pictures are AMAZING.
> best appreciate this place if you come here for a longer time and you are
> into hiking (I go above 2000m every weekend). And it is a very international
> city which of course for me is quite good too.
I have been told that is very international.
I am adding a much longer stay to the agenda when I travel to europe.
Andy
Message from Austria to France
he actually set draw....damn.
Its a flaming baton
Thats ready to twirl
Its George Bush on acid
Singing the Duke of Earl
Gonna be a new world
-Mojo Nixon
Message from France to all
France EOG
When I saw the call for this game with spectators, I immediately got interested
in it. I first wanted to join as an observer but at that time I was not
playing any games, wanted to start one anyway so I signed up out of curiosity:
wanted to know how much the observers affect the gameplay. And I really
would like to hear you guys: was there much (or anything) which you think
would have happened differently in an ordinary game. As for myself, I did
not feel that
my press or play was affected in any major way, save for using the special
feature of the game as an argument in diplomacy here and there.
Now about the game. I enjoyed 'comments' very much, I have not played with
any of you before and it was real fun. I think that the result is easy to
explain: Germany and England both seemed to be somewhat less experienced
and/or were much less active in press than the others. That (and considerable
luck on my part) gave France an enormous advantage: the west was settled
much earlier than the east and the game was very soon about what combination
of eastern powers
will stop France eventually. (Save for the fact the both Russia and Italy
were extremely close to break out before France at the opening stages but
a little bit of luck was missing there.)
The final content of the 3WD is more surprising: AT very rarely share a 3WD
and as far as I can tell the only reason Austria survived was that Turkey
did not do a thing all game long. But it was also affected by what I see
as the single most important event and mistake in the game: Russia's inviting
Turkey to stab him fatally from the south. I think that it could only turn
out badly. There was not any bloody war going on in the west, if Turkey
had not stabbed (as Russia had hoped) then the next year a major stop-the-leader
would have been formed and the Russian advance would have been stopped in
its roots, almost equally bad for Russia. So I think that it was a very
bad decision without any possible positive outcome.
I think I should have won in this game. I am surprised that Italy gave the
game to AT eventually, despite the fact that three out of his four centers
had already been grabbed by them in various raids, that apart from some annoying
French visits to the west med I stayed away from him, but most importantly
that he was stabbed by AT despite an outstanding threat to throw the game
to France. There is no a priori reason why he should not have thrown to
AT but unfortunately my play relied on what I had thought would have been
the obvious choice (not that I had much other choice to rely on though).
Finally, if Turkey had been played by a more competent player then we could
have achieved 2WD. In fact, from the midgame on, the opportunity for FT
2-way was unusually ideal all the way to the very end of the game. Unfortunately
Andrew did not (want to?) see this and my efforts to drive the game to a
2WD alone also failed.
Austria:
Andy, I enjoyed the play with you very much and you did an exceptional job
bringing the country back from its ruins. Despite some quarrels, I had a
feeling all game long that we understood each other very well (too well maybe).
I found your continued talk about you attacking Turkey (insane) quite funny,
but I think both of us knew well what it was really about. I did not mind
your occasional rude phrases, it brought some interesting colors to the chat.
Your play in the anti-French coalition was excellent and surviving in this
kind of draw is quite an accomplishment. Especially it was amazing to see
how long you could survive without any real power: both Russia and Italy
were
better positioned, but I guess you were the only one who found the key to
managing Turkey.
England:
Dave, I think that you were a victim of an oversimplified view of the game.
The anti-France alliance decision was of course good in the beginning but
your silence towards France quickly gave you a diplomatic disadvantage.
Without offense intended, I think that Richard Sharp's definition of the
"Armored Duck" is quite close to how you played in comments. About the times
when we were talking I could say the best only though: the EF-negotiations
were quite a challenge for me while constructive all the way. Alliance play
with you worked
very well and we could have finished Germany together easily (if either of
us had wanted to :-).
Germany:
I think that Erik's play was good for a long time and he was quite tough
for me. I think that letting Russia sail out in the north was a major mistake,
the Turkish stab delayed things but because of the lack of your norther presence,
your case for the draw was very weak. Unfortunately it appeared that there
were times when you did not have enough time for the game and that showed.
I also think that you did a major mistake when you stabbed me as part of
the anti-French coalition. We had a deal which I had no reason not to keep:
first I
gain and then you do and in the process England is eliminated. You should
have either stabbed me (with the help of England) before I stabbed England,
OR you should have waited one season and stab me _after_ you capitalized
on the FG-deal. It is true that the growth of France that time required
an anti-French coalition with Germany but the timing was pretty unfortunate.
Italy:
Dan, I think that your style is the closest to the way I like to play the
game and playing you was probably the most challenging. It would be interesting
to know what would have happened if we played the FI alliance (with Italian
Marseilles) much further. I retook Mar quickly because it did not seem likely
that you would get substantial support from E or G against France. Also,
your gamestart was more than frightening, all I saw was a neighbor playing
free-for-all, expanding exponentially... Later we were on good terms but
did not do much together/against because we hardly had a common target and
I had no plans to conquer the Med. Finally, beating AT in Tunis with you
was one of the most satisfying moments of the game. As for giving the game
to AT; if we happen to meet in another game and you - on the verge of elimination
- will threaten me with throwing the game to someone with a solo bid,...
well, I will probably face a very tough decision :-).
Russia:
Eric, we always got along very well, I especially enjoyed the theoretical
discussions with you. As I said above, I think that letting Turkey raid
your south was the biggest mistake of the game. Afterwards, it was quite
surprising that you did not make it to the draw: Turkey keeping Austria instead
of Russia really made sense only if he had wanted a 2WD which did not seem
to be the case. It was fun to outplay the opposition in Germany, unfortunately
we did not get Warsaw, which I was hoping for. I sympathized with your wish
to
achieve an artificial FIAR (or FIART) draw but I just could not do it, you
know... All in all, I am looking forward to crossing swords again with you.
Turkey:
Diplomacy started ok, went astray later. Little to comment on the play:
west is resolved early, clearly Turkey is part of a draw even if he does
nothing, which is what happened. After midgame, diplomacy with you was not
always enjoyable - it was quite painful to answer some of your childish messages
- I am sure you have your own complaints so no love is lost :-)
France:
I made many mistakes but I was the luckiest in terms of paying for them.
I might have won if I had played less conservatively: I am always afraid
of opening up an already existing line or make more promising but risky or
less guaranteed moves. Seeing the moves afterwards, I could have gained
quite a bit of extra tempo when conquering Germany if I had not gone the
safest route, and that could have gotten me on the other side of the stalemate
line; then I would
have won. Another interesting question is what would have happened if I
had given much ground to I and R in the endgame, as they wanted. But this
was a question which I immediately abandoned when AT stabbed Italy as I considered
the solo in my pocket then :-(.
Very nice game, thanks for Greg for starting and mastering it and especially
helping me sort out my email problems. It was a great idea and I certainly
would like to join the next game on the observer side too.
I am now looking forward to reading the other players' lies in the press
log. See you guys in another game (after you thoroughly criticized the French
play and my EOG :-)).
Tamas
Message from Austria to all
I will write an EOG and then comment on others, but I want to write my own
first.
Andy
Its a flaming baton
Thats ready to twirl
Its George Bush on acid
Singing the Duke of Earl
Gonna be a new world
-Mojo Nixon
Message from Austria to all
EOG Austria
First I would like to thank Greg for GMing the game, and the other players
for thier attention to the game and generally keeping deadlines moving.
As most of you know, I joined this game as a replacement in I believe the
Fall of 1902, my predecessor had issues that I hope he has taken care of.
I play online in order to keep my FtF (face to face) game and tactics
sharp. I play to win, but it is not the be all and end all for me that it
is for some players. Dont get me wrong...I really enjoy playing, but FTF
is what does it for me.
When I joined the game, I had NO CLUE about the observers, but I dont
think I would have done anything differently.
If I remember correctly, Greg advertised on the Vermont Group for a
replacement in a game with Austria in a borderline mercy position and
seeing that I like playing Austria, I figured I would help him out.
I joined the game....and then realized that I knew alot of the players
in it....Eric Hunter and Eric Deihn were both in a *backseat* varient game
with me that *literally* just finished....I think it was the same day.
Where I played Austria and did extremely well, as Austria almost always
dies in this varient. But the person I had the most history with with
Andrew Albright, if I remember correctly, previous to this game we had met
5 or 6 times, and each time not only did Andrew fail to survive, I am
pretty sure I am the one that killed him. I think Dan and I had shared a
game together at some point, and all I knew about he and Tamas is that
they were both VERY competent players. Sorry David, never met you before
and dont know you.
So...from where I am sitting, I have 2 top notch players, one of which is
my neigbhor, 2 guys that I just finished a game with where I was in a
position to go for a solo...but I thought it was too far a stretch, I
could only count to 17. And a guy that should want me SO dead that I was
surprised he even spoke to me. Also...I had just won the North American
Grand Prix....an award given annually to the person that has the best
total score from face to face play for the previous year. And I know that
got bantered around a bit. Oh....am my predecessor has pissed off everyone
in the game....
First thing I had to do....make a friend....ANY friend, in the fall of 02'
Italy denies me Greece, and Russia moves on me, while Turkey stays kinda
neutral. I am stunned. I talk alot to Turkey and Italy....and alittle to
Russia...trying to get him to back off. And I tell RT that I will be thier
forward guard, Turkey can be a fleet power, Russia a land power and I will
be thier forward guard....but I will need some builds for that, all the
while telling the Turk to stab Russia, and doing what I could to be
friends with Italy. And it worked....In 04' I got to 5, and stayed there
for about 3 years, talking cat and mouse with Turkey, knowing he
would never let me grow too much, always in his conservative corner, while
France exploded in growth. At this point I knew I had to make myself
valuable enough or dangerous enough to keep me around. So when we rallied
together to hold the stalemate line against France, Germany had to die and
die quick. I got to the stalemate line over the next 3 years and was at 9.
I had stabbed Italy in the process and they were at 2. France had promised
me help that wasnt there. I think if he had helped me at that time, Italy
wouldnt have been around to be in Tunis later in the game.
For the entire game Tamas has been asking and inquiring as to when
I am going to turn on Turkey...and my answer was always *when its safe*,
meaning *when I dont think you have a real solo shot*, I asked him for
help into 1 build, as I could get the other one I needed. I told him that
I needed his assistance, into a center...and he refused me, just as he had
promised me help earlier and left me hanging or supported the unit I was
attacking. At this point all real thought of stabbing Turkey went away,
and I needed to ride out the rest of the game holding the stalemate line.
Convincing Turkey that we needed Italy to hold the stalemate line in the
Med might be one of the most difficult things I have ever done in an
online game. I am not sure what I would have done in Italy's position, be
part of a 4 way or throw a solo to France.....I think he chose
correctly. Im still not quite sure why Italy had to go....if this were a
FtF game, it might have happened, but it was alot less likely. There is so
little difference in the scores for a 3 way rather than 4 way draw
normally that most players wouldnt take that chance, I know I wouldnt with
as good a player as Tamas at the helm of France. Turkey knew, in no
uncertain terms that if he attacked me, I would do everything in my power
to make sure France solo'd.
Im pretty sure that Andrew has been the person *not* setting draw the
entire time.
And it was pretty much confirmed to me by the way the draw went down....
Andrew had been buggging me to swap Rome for Moscow for a couple of years
now, and this turn was when it was supposed to happen....and I decided
that we could do it just as easily in the fall, so I changed my orders and
sent Andrew a note saying that I wanted to play defensively this season
and make the swap next season....the draw came in about 2 hours later.
As a side note.....while this game was going on....there was a FtF game
that Eric Hunter hosted......Eric Hunter, Andrew Albright and myself all
played in it, as Turkey, Austria and Russia respectively....and I could
have probably solo'd if I wasnt working on about 2 hours of sleep with a 2
hour drive ahead of me.....
My observations;
England; Didnt know you at all...never had an interaction with you.
By the time I got my positon stable, you were dead. Sorry mate.
France: Tamas....you played a brilliant game. Brilliant. You deserved a
solo, but I couldnt throw it to you...he didnt attack me and a 3 way is
always better than throwing a solo.
Germany; Erik....you were between a rock and a hard place, you had France
and Russia attacking you and you had the dots that would keep me in the
game. You were alone against France for a long time.
Italy: Dan....you played very well, I would have never cut you out of that
draw. You earned it, but when Turkey did it, there was nothing I could
about it, and as with all things, if it came to your survival or my
survival...that is a no-brainer, you would do the same in my position.
Russia: Eric....Im not sure what you were thinking giving Andrew that much
rope to hang you with.....But I give you credit...in many ways Tamas is
right, you are much easier to keep in the draw than I am, and I am not
sure why things came out this way...
Turkey: Andrew.....you played to o conservatively.....I say that in the
nicest possible way....if you wanted a 3way....that is good, but if you
wanted a win, you should have stabbed the hell out of me when you were at
8 and I was at 5 and still fighting with Italy.....otherwise, you saw the
strong western power and knew you would be in it.....and I cant argue with
that, if that is what you are playing for.
It was a pleasure, and if there is another comments game, I would gladly
join it....I hope my play helped out some of the newer players that were
observing.
take care
Andy Bartalone
Message from Austria to all
Tamas,
>
> I think I should have won in this game.
In many ways.....so do I. You played well enough to win.
> Finally, if Turkey had been played by a more competent player then we could
> have achieved 2WD.
I disagree completely.
If Turkey had been played by a much more aggresive player, the chances
were much greater. But regardless....once I got to 7, I was either in the
draw or someone was soloing.
A 2 way is at total crapshoot and one of the biggest lies in Diplomacy,
*lets go for a 2 way* with a DIAS scoring system is as big a lie as
*I will support you to Belgium* or *I wont go to Galacia*....
or for a more mainstream euphamism *She's just a friend*
But if Turkey was playing for a 3 way...he played exactly the way he
should.
You and I dont typically play for 3 ways.
In fact, from the midgame on, the opportunity for FT
> 2-way was unusually ideal all the way to the very end of the game.
Unfortunately
> Andrew did not (want to?) see this and my efforts to drive the game to a
> 2WD alone also failed.
I disagree....once I got to 7....unless you just sat back several spaces
from me and let him attack me, he wouldnt kill me before I got you a solo.
> Austria:
>
> Andy, I enjoyed the play with you very much and you did an exceptional job
> bringing the country back from its ruins.
Thank you, coming from a player of your caliber, this is a fine
compliment.
Despite some quarrels, I had a
> feeling all game long that we understood each other very well (too well
maybe).
Far too well.
I found your continued talk about you attacking Turkey (insane) quite funny,
> but I think both of us knew well what it was really about.
Like I said in my EOG, once that window was closed. Not a chance.
I did not mind
> your occasional rude phrases, it brought some interesting colors to the chat.
> Your play in the anti-French coalition was excellent and surviving in this
> kind of draw is quite an accomplishment. Especially it was amazing to see
> how long you could survive without any real power: both Russia and Italy
> were better positioned, but I guess you were the only one who found the key to
> managing Turkey.
Thank you....but as I have said a few times...once I was at 7, I was in
the draw, or someone was soloing.
take care
Andy
Message from Master to all
Players,
Congratulations to Austria, France and Turkey on the three way draw.
I'd like to thank all of the players in the game for participating in
this experiment.
I've invited all the remaining players into the Yahoo group. Once
there, you'll be able to see all of the game's press, the comments
that have been made by commentators and they'll be able to discuss the
game with the commentators.
I hope everyone enjoyed the game. I know I did.
I'll probably start comments2 around the beginning of October. Anyone
interested in joining as a player can contact me now and I'll reserve
a space for them. The only exception is that I think I'd like to have
no more than a couple of players from this game in the second. I think
it would be beneficial to see different people and different styles.
I'll probably give the next game a one or two letter name and I'll
give the Yahoo group a very short name too. Since both the group name
and game name go on the subject line for messages to the group,
that'll help reduce clutter.
Also, a commentator suggested I set up two Yahoo groups - one just for
game press, the other for commentator's discussions. That way, people
can receive game press as daily digests and discussions messages one
by one.
If there are any more suggestions for how I should run the next game,
please let me know.
One last thing, if anyone else would like to run a comments game on
another judge, I'd be interested in playing.
Greg, GM
Comments
Message from Italy to all
Italian EOG:
Well... disappointing game for me. I felt like I had a good start to this
game. I've started reading the commentators logs, and am through about
the first 1100 messages, though I haven't read all of the partial press.
They seemed to think that I had a pretty good 1901 as well. But 2 things
happened that really changed the outcome of this game for me
1. The original Austria resigned to be replaced by someone much more
competent
2. I got really busy, was in too many games at once, and my press quality
and volume suffered.
Unfortunately, these things happened at the same time...
But I get ahead of myself. I should have just signed on as an observer,
since I was in too many games, but I roped myself in playing and took
Italy. 1901 started out well for me. Austria was played by someone who
agreed to let me "borrow" Trieste in 1901. EGI decided to go after
France. I took Marseilles. I chose to bounce Greece, with Turkey having
offered support. This turned out to be the first time that, faced with 2
choices, I made the decision to go with the power that eventually screwed
me. But it wouldn't even be the worst for me.
1901 builds started my downfall. Turkey wanted to build F Smy and pass it
off as pro-Italian. This was after bouncing me in Greece (well, not
supporting me). I told him I couldn't see how that could not be an attack
on Italy. Looking back, my press there did seem kind of harsh and judging
from his later actions (such as sitting A Apu for 3 years), maybe I should
have let it slide. In any case, our relations went downhill from there
and never really recovered.
1902 in the west saw the roving 1st Venetian Cavalry move to Belgium.
Fall 1902 I chose poorly again. Russia offered support for Tri-Ser, but
instead opted to go with Turkey. After betraying Austria there, and not
getting the build to go with it, my chances in the game went down, down,
down. It was somewhat comforting to realize that Russia also chose poorly
(by going with Turkey who later stabbed him instead of me).
Mid-game continued with Austria and Turkey both attacking me. My northern
army moved into Kiel in 1904 and then Berlin in 1905. That was a nice
move - I got England and Germany to bounce in Kiel, keeping it Italian,
which kept me from disbanding as Austria took Venice. Austria and I
actually were able to get along fairly well over the succeeding years.
Spring 1907 was my downfall as both Turkey and France advanced on me in
the Med. Fall 1907 Turkey convoyed to Apulia. That army sat there until
Spring 1910, as Turkey advanced with my support into the western
Meditteranean. Spring 1910 was the stab, and Fall 1910 was the already
mentioned reverse attack on Tunis which saved me in Tunis.
I retreated my army to Marseilles in 1911 and sat as a 2 center power. I
tried to convince Eric to hole up in Berlin. I thought that if we got
France to 16 while we were both in Berlin and Tunis that we might have a
chance. We could threaten that if either of us were eliminated that the
other would throw the game. But I don't know if I just didn't explain
that well, or what, but Eric seemed to have his own plan.
My other plan involved using that army in Marseilles to convoy back to
Rom/Nap. The thinking would be that if Turkey/Austria refused to issue
the convoy and vacate Rom/Nap, then I would throw the game to France. If
France refused to issue the convoy from F Lyo, then I would let AT take
Tunis. I didn't really elaborate on this plan to France, for reasons that
are no longer clear to me. Maybe I thought he would try to wrangle the
system? In any case, he took Mar before I could implement the plan, and
with only the fleet in Tunis, my options were very limited.
I was very annoyed when he took Mar, but I don't think that was the real
reason I chose not to throw the game to France. I think the main thing
was still holding out hope of being in a draw. I thought it might happen,
and it nearly did. I did think that ATI could have advanced and/or made
demands against France to get him to withdraw, playing on Tamas's desire
for the 2-way. But maybe not.
Austria #1: Really wish you wouldn't have abandoned...
Austria #2: Wish you wouldn't have signed on :-), or wish you would have
played the whole game. My 1901/2 strategy was all based on a weak
Austria, and when a strong Austria signed on, my game really went in the
crapper. It is true that a good diplomat would have been able to deal
with that, and that is a place where I definitely failed in this game.
England/Germany: Don't remember a whole lot about either of you.
France: Excellent play. Definitely proved yourself to be a superb
diplomat.
Russia: Wonder what would have happened if you had supported me into
Serbia in 1902. Would we have cleaned up the board together instead of
being resigned to our late eliminations?
Turkey: Very frustrating for me to play with. I'll hold off on any other
comments about play/diplomacy as I don't feel I can be impartial just yet.
see you around,
Dan Miller
Italy
Message from Turkey to all
More from the weak, outmatched, frustrating Turkish player (who
finished as well as any of his better opponents).....
One thing that is interesting but that probably doesn't change
anything is that I missed several interesting days of press. I was
away job-hunting last week when that worm hit and filled up my inbox.
Apparently quite a few messages got bounced back including some
apparently where France and Austria got into a spat regarding
forwarding of press. Usually if you miss press, there is some
indication, but here there was none and I had no idea I missed
anything. Definitely an oversight on my part.
Forwarding Press.
Also, I have only started to read observer comments, not other
player's press (which might end up being the most valuable thing here
for me). But one question already comes up--do experienced players
forward press? It seems that France was doing that here. My
experience has been that this is a no-no. Did France only do it when
he was sure he was in a rock solid position?
Relationship of Austria and Italy.
In diplomacy it is obvious that it is good for you when other powers
aren't getting along. Reading observers comments, it appears that
most thought I hated France and playing a vendetta game against him.
I should have written more to the observers (myself), but my
reasoning was this.....
I got press and indications from Italy and Austria that they didn't
like French press. I didn't go along with this idea of them helping
me solo as i wouldn't want to solo that way and more importantly I
doubted them. (I did welcome allying with them).
*********Message from buffalo@guisarme.net as Austria to Italy and Turkey in
'comments':
Andrew,
I have heard a rumor that you are not particurally available this week,
but I would hope that you would take the time to listen to what Italy and
I have to offer you.
Both of us, are tired of listening to the French prattle on at us about
how we need to attack each other and attack you, and basically twist our
words at every chance.
We would like to help you solo. I will move northeast and north, and maybe
northwest alittle bit and Italy will move west and northwest.
All we ask is that you give us time to push back your opponents; France,
Germany and Russia before you start taking our dots.
For instance you could convoy and army to Apulia, and move out of
Serbia...to say Rum. And let us move away from you and defend against
others...
Message from Turkey to all
>Turkey: Very frustrating for me to play with. I'll hold off on any other
>comments about play/diplomacy as I don't feel I can be impartial just yet.
My initial opinion of you was set by the way I read this:
"I'll be frank with you - I'll likely open up to Apu and Ion, but I don't
want to necessarily Lepanto against you - I find that it just bogs down
Italy *forever*. So, if you don't open Ank-Con (either bouncing in Bla
or actually getting in), then I will call off the Lepanto and move on
Austria."
To me that sounds like too much of a threat. I read it as you talking
down to me,saying 'your strategy should be based on what i want you
to do'. While this is perfectly fine, you needed to sugarcoat it a
little better. I would contrast this with the exceedingly cordial
opening press that France sent to me.
I probably get too conservative and jump too quickly to stop the
early leader or someone who looks like they are going to solo. It
seems by my way of thinking that too often someone solos. I would
assume that more experienced players know all this but just play a
game of chicked, waiting until the last minute to do this.
Therefore, when you jumped to an early lead, with a weak Austria and
France getting hammered, I saw no choice but to play against you
early. I'm sure that then set the early stage for everything later.
Message from Turkey to all
>The final content of the 3WD is more surprising: AT very rarely share a 3WD
>and as far as I can tell the only reason Austria survived was that Turkey
>did not do a thing all game long. But it was also affected by what I see
>as the single most important event and mistake in the game: Russia's inviting
>Turkey to stab him fatally from the south.
This is an excellent example of why I never trusted France..his loose
logic. He says that I didn't do anything, but then says that I
stabbed Russia and this was Russia's downfall.!?!?? I just don't
communicate well with someone who is loose with logic and facts.
>Finally, if Turkey had been played by a more competent player then we could
>have achieved 2WD. In fact, from the midgame on, the opportunity for FT
>2-way was unusually ideal all the way to the very end of the game.
>Unfortunately
>Andrew did not (want to?) see this and my efforts to drive the game to a
>2WD alone also failed.
A more competent player could have tried for a 2WD with you or maybe
had more patience with you and the long press that would have been
necessary. I didn't and I don't think I am capable of bullshitting
with a bullshitter. You made it impossible to trust that a 2WD could
have been outlined in press (because I felt you probably would have
forwarded to Austria, then followed by the moves, there was a good
chance that Austria would have thrown you the solo.
What you should have done is pursued a 2WD and then tried to paint me
as really requesting it etc and tried to get Austria to get mad at me
and throw you the solo. After Italy was eliminated and you retreat
more, what do you think Austria would have thought was going on?
As for an actual 2WD, it was of course possible..and I actually
thought you were bluffing on setting draw. you said you wouldn't
eliminate Russia. IAT held. You eliminated Russia. You said you
wouldn't move back (so Italy could be eliminated). IAT held, then
Austria and myself eliminated Italy. I actually thought you would
have tried a little harder for the 2WD mostly because your chronic
press indicated someone who was extremely persistent.
I never bought your story that "the game was all about what turkey
wanted"...I saw you holding all the cards as to the outcome. I wonder
if you really thought this or were you just saying it?
Message from Russia to all
Russian EoG
Hmmm, what do I say? Congratulations to Tamas,
Andy, and Andrew, thanks to Greg for setting up
the game, for USTX, and for everything he's done
for the hobby, and to the other players. I seem
to get involved in games like this one, where
observers watch and comment, or advisors play a
role, or Press is recorded for posterity's sake.
'titleist', the bkseat games on NZMB, the teachme
games, the gutsy games, and now 'comments'. In
this case, as with 'gutsy', I was involved in the
discussion on rec.games.diplomacy that led to the
creation of the game, and figured I should put my
money where my mouth was.
Based on the r.g.d. discussion, I had expected
'comments' to be a game for experienced and
highly-rated players, and I expected to be
playing Germany, but I ended up as Russia,
(again), and found that England, Germany, Austria
and Italy were either Judge novices, or players
with significantly below average JDPRs. I
expected this imbalance in experience to impact
the game, and was concerned about a French or
Italian runaway, while hoping that it would
improve my chance to Solo.
If memory serves, my initial plan called for
working toward an IR 2-way, with the hope of
Soloing in the North before Dan could get to 17
by setting up AIR vs. T and then sandwiching
Austria, but in S1901M, Austria violated our
agreed upon DMZ of Gal, and then retreated
to Bud in the Fall, so it was clear that he was
neither trustworthy nor of much use, so I began
to court Turkey more seriously.
For the Juggernaut to succeed in the long-term,
Russia needs to be able to expand through
Scandinavia, Germany and England as Turkey moves
through Austria and Italy. Given the narrow
anti-French focus of EG, and the inexperience of
EGA, it seemed as though this would be easily
achievable, so two of my first three builds were
Fleets in StP/NC. For the Juggernaut to be
stopped, AI have to block Turkey while EG stop
Russia, and with Italy in Trieste, and me feeding
information about EG's plan to France, it seemed
unlikely that a coordinated response would form
in time.
The only other thing that can stop the Juggernaut
is a stab, and my hope was that by demonstrating
"too much" trust, and offering plans that clearly
demonstrated my commitment to Turkey's advancement,
Andrew would understand that I did not intend to
stab him, and that he would be better off remaining
allied with me, than he would be stabbing me. To
me, this should have been obvious to Andrew, since
by stabbing me, he would either grow to 8, and then
stagnate, or be forced to tackle a larger Austria
without help, while working with me would have
gotten him to a minimum of 13 to 14 Centers and
sole control of a minimal Southern stalemate-line,
and quite possibly to an RT 2-way draw.
Had the original Austria not resigned due to
"eye-trouble", I suspect that this is the way
things would have played out, but I have to give
Buffalo full credit for coming into a near-mercy
position, and doing an outstanding job of
"turning" Andrew, especially given their history. By 1905 I was down to two
Centers and it was clear
that continuing to fight in the south would just
lead to my elimination, so I kept two northern
Fleets, and worked with FG to eliminate England.
I managed to build in Warsaw that Fall, and offered
Turkey a plan that would have given him Serbia and
Budapest in exchange for Moscow, and put RT back on
track, but Andrew moved to defend Mos instead, and
we spent the next five or six years arguing over
who should hold Moscow if we wanted to stop France
before he reached 17.
AT were never willing to return Mos and/or War to
Russian control so that I could establish a
stalemate line against France, so I felt that I was
left with no choice but to support France's Solo
bid in the marginal hope that I might survive as he
soloed. He didn't, I didn't. My only other hope
was that I might end up holding Berlin with France
at 17, and receive support from AT to stop the
Solo, but France never got Tunis, so that didn't
happen, either.
Player Reviews:
Austria 1: I don't believe the story about
"eye-trouble" from the original Austrian. He has
a history of abandoning bad positions, and he
should have had the courage to face the mess he
made of the Austrian position here.
Austria 2: As I said, Andy has my utmost respect
for pulling Austria's chestnuts out of the fire here. I didn't think it was
possible in the
circumstances.
England: Dave did a decent job, I thought, but
committing to EG so early, and so firmly, and
announcing it so widely was a mistake.
France: Tamas was outstanding, I thought. Yes,
he was fortunate in the skill distribution in the
game, but he was faced with a strong EG right out
of the block, and fought them off and turned
Germany against England quite well. I enjoyed
playing with, and talking with Tamas a great deal,
and I suspect that his JDPR is a couple of hundred
points lower than it should be, and I look forward
to playing him again.
Germany: Erik was extremely quiet in the early
going, and that certainly influenced my decision
to make an early play for Scandinavia. Once he
stabbed England, he found himself working between
two Powers who were talking to each other much
more than they were talking to him, so I'd say he
was doomed, but he did a good job in a tough
situation.
Italy: Dan, I'm not sure what happened between us.
Our early discussions were so positive that I'm
surprised that IR never developed. I think that
given your opening, and your reluctance to discuss
your plans, I may have decided you were too much of
a threat.
Russia: Well, I'm a risk-taker, and I certainly
showed that here. Sometimes they pay off, and
sometimes they don't. I'm very good at looking at
the map and figuring out what moves the other guy
is likely to make, but I find it difficult to see
the strategic picture from the other guy's
perspective, and that hurt me here. Given what I
was hearing from Turkey, I thought that "showing him my throat" would
strengthen our alliance, but
clearly it didn't.
Turkey: I both over-estimated and under-estimated
you, I think. I assumed that since you were
playing for a draw, you would be looking to achieve
a stalemate line, and would not stab for a couple
of Centers when doing so would so obviously stall
your progress well short of that line. You had the
opportunity to accomplish so much more than you
achieved here, at so little risk, that I'll never
understand why you made the choices you made.
Eric Hunter/Nicky/Russia.
Message from Russia to all
I misspoke >
> I ended up as Russia, (again), and found that
> England, Germany, Austria and Italy were either
> Judge novices, or players with significantly
> below average JDPRs.
This should be "England, Germany, Austria and Turkey". Sorry, Dan.
Eric.
Message from Russia to all
Russian Responses to EoGs
> France EOG
>
> I signed up out of curiosity: wanted to know
> how much the observers affect the game play.
> And I really would like to hear you guys:
> was there much (or anything) which you think
> would have happened differently in an ordinary
> game?
The 'comments' concept is an interesting one, I
think. It would certainly be worth doing again
as a Vermont Group or "Masters' Class" sort of
game. The combination of the audience and the
strength/experience differential between FIR and
EGAT did make me think about my Solo chances
much earlier than I normally do, and that may
have contributed to my downfall, but the audience
contribution to that was rather small.
> the single most important event and mistake in
> the game: Russia's inviting Turkey to stab him
> fatally from the south. I think that it could
> only turn out badly. if Turkey had not stabbed
> (as Russia had hoped) then the next year a
> major stop-the-leader would have been formed
> and the Russian advance would have been stopped
> in its roots, almost equally bad for Russia. So
> I think that it was a very bad decision without
> any possible positive outcome.
If Turkey had ordered as we had planned in Fall
'04, he'd have taken Ser, keeping Austria at 3,
as I took Rum. I would have built A War and that
would have forced Germany to try to defend Den, Ber
and Mun as RT eliminated Austria and brought
another Army against Munich in '06. How long
would Germany have been able to guess right? How
long would you have braced EG as Turkey started
making progress against Italy? FRT was easily
achievable, RT was certainly possible, and a
Russian Solo was not out of the question. If
Andrew had been a bit more ambitious and
far-sighted, it could have had a very positive
outcome, in my opinion.
Austria >
France > >
> > Finally, if Turkey had been played by a more
> > competent player then we could have achieved 2WD.
>
> I disagree completely.
>
> If Turkey had been played by a much more
> aggressive player, the chances were much greater.
> But regardless....once I got to 7, I was
> either in the draw or someone was soloing.
Yes, but Turkey had at least three opportunities
to eliminate you before you reached 7. Given the
inherent instability of AT and the history you two
have, the fact that he didn't is stunning.
> end of game message from Turkey:
>
> Russia. Good player, but too trusting and too nice.
> So nice that I got paranoid and stabbed him because
> I mistook working well together for someone 'playing'
> me.
*ROFL* Fascinating! I bend over backward to be
non-threatening, and that seems threatening.
> I thought Russia got very angry and he could
> have played better to stop France. If he had
> played better I thought he could have secured
> Scandinavia.
I don't see that this was possible without my
holding War and Mos.
Master >
> I'll probably start comments2 around the beginning
> of October. Anyone interested in joining as a player
> can contact me now and I'll reserve a space for them.
> The only exception is that I think I'd like to have
> no more than a couple of players from this game in
> the second. I think it would be beneficial to see
> different people and different styles.
As I said above, I think it should be restricted
to dedicated and perhaps highly-skilled people.
> a commentator suggested I set up two Yahoo groups -
> one just for game press, the other for commentator's
> discussions. That way, people can receive game press
> as daily digests and discussions messages one by one.
That seems like a good idea.
> Italian EOG:
> I tried to convince Eric to hole up in Berlin.
> I don't know if I just didn't explain that well,
> or what, but Eric seemed to have his own plan.
I just didn't see France agreeing to the draw,
or AT supporting me in Berlin, so I tried to
force my inclusion in the draw by pushing France
to 17.
> Russia: Wonder what would have happened if you
> had supported me into Serbia in 1902. Would we
> have cleaned up the board together instead of
> being resigned to our late eliminations?
I don't remember the context of the negotiations
at that point, but it's certainly possible.
> Turkey:
>
> Forwarding Press.
> Also, I have only started to read observer comments, not other
> player's press (which might end up being the most valuable
> thing here for me). But one question already comes up--do
> experienced players forward press? It seems that France was
> doing that here. My experience has been that this is a no-no.
Personally, I don't see much difference between Power X
sending me a note saying "Power Y says he's going to
attack War", and him sending a copy of Y's note where
Y says, "I'm going to attack War." I know that some
people view press-passing as a mortal sin, but from
my perspective, once something I write is in your inbox,
it's yours to use as you see fit.
> Did France only do it when he was sure he was
> in a rock solid position?
The few occasions when he passed press to me it
was more to communicate the other Power's emotional
state than to pass any specific tactical info.
Eric.
Message from Turkey to all
>
>I misspoke >
>
>> I ended up as Russia, (again), and found that
>> England, Germany, Austria and Italy were either
>> Judge novices, or players with significantly
> > below average JDPRs.
>
>This should be "England, Germany, Austria and Turkey". Sorry, Dan.
I think if you had played the game and not your JDPR your outcome
might have been better.
"making progress against Italy? FRT was easily
achievable, RT was certainly possible, and a
Russian Solo was not out of the question. If
Andrew had been a bit more ambitious and
far-sighted, it could have had a very positive
outcome, in my opinion."
If I had not stabbed you, then it would definitely have been a better
outcome for you, but not necessarily for me. Conventional wisdom
holds that frequently Turkey is at a disadvantage in an RT...and
especially since my growth would have had to go through Italy and a
Buffalo and yours through England and Germany, both of whom I had no
idea about.
I think I made the right decision.
I think you are whining because you got beat by a 'lesser' player.
Message from Russia to all
> Broadcast message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey in
'comments':
>
> > I ended up as Russia, (again), and found that
> > England, Germany, Austria and Turkey were
> > either Judge novices, or players with
> > significantly below average JDPRs.
>
> I think if you had played the game and not your JDPR
> your outcome might have been better.
Had I based my play I JDPRs, I would have allied
with Dan over you. The mistake I made was not
looking at JDPRs, it was assuming that you
understood the game well enough to see the
advantage inherent in not stabbing.
> > "making progress against Italy? FRT was easily
> > achievable, RT was certainly possible, and a
> > Russian Solo was not out of the question. If
> > Andrew had been a bit more ambitious and
> > far-sighted, it could have had a very positive
> > outcome, in my opinion."
>
> If I had not stabbed you, then it would definitely
> have been a better outcome for you, but not
> necessarily for me. Conventional wisdom holds
> that frequently Turkey is at a disadvantage in an
> RT...
Very good, Andrew, you're able to repeat what
you have read. It's unfortunate that you have not
bothered to explore the deeper reasons behind
the conventional wisdom. Turkey is often at a
disadvantage in RT because Russia typically
holds Rum, Bud and Vie, plus all the Centers to
the North, and those massed Armies can turn
south whenever Russia decides to stab. I had
already given you Rum, and offered you all of
Austria as I advanced through Germany and
England.
> and especially since my growth would have
> had to go through Italy and a Buffalo and yours
> through England and Germany, both of whom I
> had no idea about.
If you had stuck with our plan in '03, Austria
would have been eliminated by '05, and you
would have been at 8 or 9 Centers. Italy
would have been unable to defend Ion and
Venice against you without French help. If
France moved into the Med to help, it would
just have been a matter of time before we
ended up at FRT, and with organized pressure
from the north and south, we could have
pushed toward an RT 2-way.
> I think I made the right decision.
Yes, I was sure that you would.
> I think you are whining because you got beat
> by a 'lesser' player.
I don't think I'm whining at all. I lost, and
I congratulated the three of you for it. I took
a risk, and addressed your concerned about
the RT conventional wisdom, by "offering
you my throat", trusting that you would see
that you had more to gain by continuing to
work with me than you did by stabbing me.
In doing so I misjudged your ambition, your
understanding of stalemate lines, and your
ability to see more than a turn or two down
the road. It was a grave mistake, and I was
eliminated as a result. I lost, (you did not
beat me), because I gave you too much credit,
not because I underestimated your ability.
Eric.
Message from Turkey to all
Wow, I think you are onto something.
I think you should write a book about it:
"How to lose at Diplomacy with a superior JDPR"
You had all 4 of the 'lesser' players surrounding you, but yet you
did not survive. (compare this to France's outcome).
It was also interesting to read the Italian press pleading with
Austria about how it was 'unfair' that he should be eliminated (of
course this was all my fault too). It was good to have me around to
the end though as I could be used as the scapegoat for everything Bad
That Happened.
Perhaps this attitude that 'you should not lose' is what makes you
'so good' but irregardless I find it very entertaining as it keeps
you away from the truth. from reality even.
>Broadcast message from Dip_Power@comcast.net as Russia in 'comments':
>
>
>> Broadcast message from albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu as Turkey in
>'comments':
>>
>> > I ended up as Russia, (again), and found that
>> > England, Germany, Austria and Turkey were
>> > either Judge novices, or players with
>> > significantly below average JDPRs.
>>
>> I think if you had played the game and not your JDPR
>> your outcome might have been better.
>
>Had I based my play I JDPRs, I would have allied
>with Dan over you. The mistake I made was not
>looking at JDPRs, it was assuming that you
>understood the game well enough to see the
>advantage inherent in not stabbing.
>
>> > "making progress against Italy? FRT was easily
>> > achievable, RT was certainly possible, and a
>> > Russian Solo was not out of the question. If
>> > Andrew had been a bit more ambitious and
>> > far-sighted, it could have had a very positive
>> > outcome, in my opinion."
>>
>> If I had not stabbed you, then it would definitely
>> have been a better outcome for you, but not
>> necessarily for me. Conventional wisdom holds
>> that frequently Turkey is at a disadvantage in an
>> RT...
>
>Very good, Andrew, you're able to repeat what
>you have read. It's unfortunate that you have not
>bothered to explore the deeper reasons behind
>the conventional wisdom. Turkey is often at a
>disadvantage in RT because Russia typically
>holds Rum, Bud and Vie, plus all the Centers to
>the North, and those massed Armies can turn
>south whenever Russia decides to stab. I had
>already given you Rum, and offered you all of
>Austria as I advanced through Germany and
>England.
>
>> and especially since my growth would have
>> had to go through Italy and a Buffalo and yours
>> through England and Germany, both of whom I
>> had no idea about.
>
>If you had stuck with our plan in '03, Austria
>would have been eliminated by '05, and you
>would have been at 8 or 9 Centers. Italy
>would have been unable to defend Ion and
>Venice against you without French help. If
>France moved into the Med to help, it would
>just have been a matter of time before we
>ended up at FRT, and with organized pressure
>from the north and south, we could have
>pushed toward an RT 2-way.
>
>> I think I made the right decision.
>
>Yes, I was sure that you would.
>
>> I think you are whining because you got beat
>> by a 'lesser' player.
>
>I don't think I'm whining at all. I lost, and
>I congratulated the three of you for it. I took
>a risk, and addressed your concerned about
>the RT conventional wisdom, by "offering
>you my throat", trusting that you would see
>that you had more to gain by continuing to
>work with me than you did by stabbing me.
>In doing so I misjudged your ambition, your
>understanding of stalemate lines, and your
>ability to see more than a turn or two down
>the road. It was a grave mistake, and I was
>eliminated as a result. I lost, (you did not
>beat me), because I gave you too much credit,
>not because I underestimated your ability.
>
>Eric.
Message from Russia to all
Andrew,
> Wow, I think you are onto something.
> I think you should write a book about it:
> "How to lose at Diplomacy with a superior JDPR"
You're rapidly approaching my killfile again.
(I'm sure you'll tell yourself that it's because
I can't take the truth.)
> You had all 4 of the 'lesser' players surrounding you,
> but yet you did not survive. (compare this to France's
> outcome).
Yes, you're right, though calling Buffalo "one of the
lesser players" is a gross mischaracterization, and
the original Austria was only here for three seasons.
As Dan points out, it would have been a very different
game if the original Austria had not abandoned, or if
Buffalo had been playing Austria from the start. And
as I said, I took a risk to advance the Juggernaut and
my Solo chances, and I got burned for it. It happens.
> Perhaps this attitude that 'you should not lose' is
> what makes you 'so good' but irregardless I find
> it very entertaining as it keeps you away from the
> truth. from reality even.
Oh, and what is the truth that I'm avoiding, Andrew?
I lost, I know that. I lost because I left myself wide
open to your stab. I know that, too. Leaving myself
that wide open against a player of your caliber was
a mistake, I know that, too. So, what part of the truth
am I missing?
Eric.
Message from Italy to all
> It was also interesting to read the Italian press pleading with
> Austria about how it was 'unfair' that he should be eliminated (of
> course this was all my fault too). It was good to have me around to
So... what should I have said to Austria? Just gone down without doing
everything in my power to try and stay alive?
I hope that you take my "comments" in the manner in which they are
intended, that is as constructive criticism. Certainly everyone can learn
from this game, from the best player in the game to the worst, whomever
they might be.
You have certainly proven yourself to be a capable player. You have also
proven (at least to me) that there are certain aspects of your game that
could use improving. So you can use the press log and EOGs to find and
improve aspects of your game, or you can ignore anything anyone else has
to say. Personally, I've found the press log on Yahoo very enlightening
in trying to pinpoint where my game came apart, so that in future games, I
can try not to do that again.
I stated in my EOG that you "frustrated" me. I stand by that, and the
attitude that I am getting from you as you spar with Russia here is some
of the reason. I am trying to pinpoint some of teh press that I sent to
you that caused the I/T relationship to fall apart, and in that I
appreciate what you said to me about my opening press to you. As well, I
saw some press that I sent to you before 1901 builds that might have come
off too pushy. So now I can file that away to try and tone that out. If
I were you, I'd consider investigating why you frustrated me and perhaps
file that away, since you may not be so lucky in your outcome next time.
Your mileage may vary...
Message from France to all
I wrote a long (again:-)) reply last night to some points but my network
in the hotel is still down. I hope to be able to send tonight, stay tuned
tamas
Message from France to all
Hi All,
Ok, I have now read most of the observer comments. I was a little surprised,
I had thought that there would be more people and more criticism, still,
it was infinitely interesting.
I was impressed that a huge portion of the comments was criticism about the
style of the French press. Frankly, I thank you all very much for it! I
actually agree with much, indeed when I reread my press it often annoys even
myself and it is just too long. Part of it is surely that as a Hungarian,
I need three sentences for something you guys might say in a word. It is
also true that often I just do not get why others cannot follow my logic
and promoting my arguments aggressively does certainly more bad than good.
And there were other valid points.
At the same time, I am surprised that people get annoyed. I mean, I find
much fun in reading someone else's long messages (even if I dislike the press),
guessing the personality and thoughts, etc, I cannot imagine myself get pissed.
And I am shocked by the fact that people who never saw each other's face
and whose entire contact is this small set of characters on the screen, would
find enough reason for personal insults. And of course I do not mean Austria
sending a "fuck off" here and there which I consider way more friendly than
not.
But I am digressing. What I wanted to say is that while I agree with much
of the criticism about my style, I am surprised that so many of you focused
on it when trying to explain my bad diplomatic position without anyone pointing
out that France is hated because of a solo threat BY DEFAULT and I would
have been hated no matter what press I write. The same press took me to
the midgame very well. Certainly some other style could have worked too.
But I highly doubt that any major change would have had a big impact on
my diplomatic position. Nicky was a friend, GE on the way out, AT were mortal
enemies, Dan was exactly as friendly as in the beginning. (A final comment:
someone suggested that I deliberately annoy Turkey by calling him Andy instead
of Andrew - his preferred way. Of course I did not know this and if anything
then it was exactly the opposite.)
About lying, another often heard point. From the volume of the press alone
one can expect quite a bit of semi-truth unless one is straightforward about
moves and intentions ? something I do not find very useful. I do try to
plant ideas, mostly with the aim that others do not trust each other, but
I try to do it in such a way that I am difficult to catch with my quoted
messages. ?You said in S1901 that we would be friends for the game and still
you are a big pal of my enemy: you are a dirty liar? is hard to work with
in Diplomacy. It is not that hard to avoid being a victim of wishy-washy
talk: ask about things which are really important (you stay out of ENG, confirmed?),
but do not count on things which are not explicitly stated. One must understand
that seven players are playing for the solo victory, to defeat _all_ the
six others, there is simply no way to get there with broadcasted orders.
Long-term intentions are usually kept secret too, which is how it should
be. One very frustrating thing for me in this game was that the only player
whom I always told what I want long-term was Turkey. Naturally I did not
append to every message ?by the way I want to solo even more than FT?, this
would be the signature of every decent player. A good illustration is the
two-season agony over Tunis. I did not even think about bringing it up because
the 2WD required Turkish Tunis (at that point - previously other lines were
possible). Suddenly Turkey proposed that I take Tunis, that is of course
a solo opportunity, so I go for it. Then it failed and we all saw the diplomatic
disaster it left, for no reason. Unfortunately by the time I realized that
Turkey does not grasp the concept of the game, there were no other options
left.
>Austria says:
>
>For the entire game Tamas has been asking and inquiring as to when
>I am going to turn on Turkey...and my answer was always *when its safe*
As far as I remember, this is wrong. Most of the time _you_ started these
discussions with "I will attack Turkey if...", you did not need encouragement.
Of course, I did not tell not to do it, although even that happened: twice
in this game I told you that it is insane and we should not bother fooling
each other.
>I am not sure what I would have done in Italy's position, be
>part of a 4 way or throw a solo to France.....I think he chose
>correctly.
Wait, I might have missed the result of the game. It was a 3WD, right?
So we are not exactly talking about _that_ choice!
>France: [...] but I couldnt throw it to you...he didnt attack me and a 3
way is
>always better than throwing a solo.
There was absolutely no reason why you should have thrown to me, in fact
I would have been quite unhappy if you had. And you deserved the 3WD just
as much.
>> I think I should have won in this game.
>
>In many ways.....so do I. You played well enough to win.
This is of course not what I meant. The way I like diplomacy, France should
have won after the AT stab on Italy. That's what the dynamics of the game
would have dictated. I was not talking about myself, rather about the position.
>> Finally, if Turkey had been played by a more competent player then we
could
>> have achieved 2WD.
>
>I disagree completely.
>A 2 way is at total crapshoot and one of the biggest lies in Diplomacy,
We had this discussion during the game. You are most certainly wrong, for
one: my continued call for a 2WD WAS NOT A LIE. Yes, I wanted a 2WD but
of course I would have tried the solo if the possibility arises. Why cannot
people see that these are not mutually exclusive targets?
It actually would not have been _that_ easy to throw the game to me if Turkey
had bothered to consider my proposal. The tricky point is _when_ you throw
the game. (And do not forget that Italy finally did _not_ throw either.)
You let Turkey sail to WMS, why? (This would have been a step towards my
2WD plan. You could have said that there is no reason for him to be there
so it must be aggression against Austria. And if Turkey had been a serious
player then you would have been damn right!) He might have gotten away with
taking Spa. And I would have supported him there and to Marseilles. Is
that enough reason to throw? Hard to tell because France is doing the dirty
work while Turkey does not harm you.
You did not have fleets, with Turkish Spa and Mar I would have had to fight
Mos and War off Turkey after he stabs you for three of your centers at one
go. That means that you have to give me three centers while Turkey floods
you with his armies to throw the game. I do not think that it is easy, certainly
not trivial. And this was only the situation in the end, admittedly the
most risky when there are only three powers. The opportunity was most clearly
there, of course with much better chances before. And I meant it all the
way, so it is certainly not the biggest lie, at least not as far as I am
concerned.
> Russia says:
>For the Juggernaut [...] to expand through
>Scandinavia, Germany and England as Turkey moves
>through Austria and Italy. So two of my first three
>builds were Fleets in StP/NC.
It was really horror to see the Russian navy expanding with complete agreement
from Germany. When I asked Erik about it, he said that he does not mind
as long as they are out of the Baltic. Brrrr.
> I did not intend to
> stab [Turkey], and that he would be better off remaining
> allied with me, than he would be stabbing me.
I slightly doubt this. Neither England nor Germany were concerned about
you completely locking Scandinavia. Your completely safe northern power
base would have let you eat Turkey in one go, especially once there is fight
among ATI, which certainly looked like that.
> My only other hope
> was that I might end up holding Berlin with France
> at 17, and receive support from AT to stop the
> Solo, but France never got Tunis, so that didn't
> happen, either.
I do not think that Berlin would have been a guarantee for you just as Tunis
was not for Italy. Your analysis is correct IMHO: you could not survive
because you did not hold a line and you did not have the bargaining power
to throw the game.
> Italy:
> EGI decided to go after France.
This was the first surprise when I went to the press log. You told me after
S1901 that you were invited to Pie after we DMZ'd it by an existing EG.
But in fact it appears that the whole thing was your job. A pretty good
job, I must say.
> My other plan involved using that army in Marseilles to convoy back to
> Rom/Nap. The thinking would be that if Turkey/Austria refused to issue
> the convoy and vacate Rom/Nap, then I would throw the game to France.
> In any case, he took Mar before I could implement the plan,
Yes and you told me and I encouraged you to do it. And you also told me
later that you do not even ask AT about it. Not quite clear what I should
have waited for. And of course the convoy would not have produced a situation
any better. You did not have any chance to survive, but I fail to see any
reason why you did not give the game to AT many years earlier if that was
your choice instead of making a fool of both of us.
I am guessing that indeed you did not have the time to think about the situation.
Our last debate was much fun and interesting but somewhat surreal when you
said that you are throwing to AT _because_ France lets them eliminate you.
We did much better than that earlier in the game...
Do not get me wrong, I am not concerned with my JDPR, the fun is what counts
(although, while the game is ongoing, I _do_ everything possible to turn
it) and there was certainly much fun in this game. But the end I believe
was not very entertaining.
Tamas
Message from Russia to all
I'd like to address a few issues raised by the
commentators from the beginning of the game up
through the AT stab of Italy, which is the point
I've reached in my reading.
Early on there was a lot of discussion about how
the Powers were failing to make, or at least state,
their long-term plans for getting to 18 Centers.
From my perspective, at least, making this sort of
plan is a mistake, because the goal of a Diplomacy
player should not be to try to control a specific
18 Centers and to devise a plan to get there, but
rather to try to shape the diplomatic environment to
create opportunities for growth, and to make gains
where the opportunity presents itself, while keeping
in mind the importance of getting across the
stalemate line early enough to secure the vital
winning Centers before the opposite side of the
board resolves. Alliance decisions should be based
on diplomatic considerations first, especially in
the West where the strategic differences between EF,
EG, and FG are minor. The name of the game is
Diplomacy, not WWI Tactics. Keep your goals in
mind at all times, and argue for them, but always
consider the other guy's plan, too, and ask yourself
what advantage his plan gives him, what unspoken
reasons he have for proposing it to you, and how you
can turn it to your advantage down the road. If the
other player's plan seems to legitimately advance
your goals, his goals, and the goals of the
alliance, then going along with it gains you useful
diplomatic capital.
Eugene felt that I made a mistake by not building
enough Armies prior to the Turkish stab, and there
was a generally held view that Turkey had improved
his position by stabbing me. The fact that I got
stabbed suggests that Eugene was right, but I feel
that my mistake was not communicating my vision for
the RT alliance well enough to Andrew. I was
attempting to build a "diplomatic defense", rather
than a tactical one, but I failed to communicate the
advantages of our alliance sufficiently to Andrew to
overcome his pre-conceived ideas about the imbalance
of the Juggernaut.
The following doesn't really apply to Andrew, since
the game he plays has little relationship to what
the rest of us think of as Diplomacy, but in my view
the Turkish stab was a mistake on several levels.
Russia posed no stab threat to Turkey, Russia was
not yet a Solo threat, though the potential was
certainly there, and the plan for RT advancement
benefited Turkey as much or more than it
benefited Russia. For Turkey to Solo, the Sultan
must minimally take southern Russia, the Balkans,
Austria, Italy, and two of Tunis, Spain, Marseilles,
Munich, and Berlin, while Austria, the Balkans and
Italy are needed for a minimal southern stalemate.
Attacking Russia did not advance Turkish forces
toward the stalemate line or the cross-stalemate
line Centers needed to Solo. Stabbing Russia also
strengthened Austria, further slowing Turkish
progress toward the Centers he needed for security
or victory. Taking Sevastopol certainly increased
Turkish security, and if the Sultan had done so,
and then proposed that we resume out westward march,
I would have considered the idea, since an RT 2-way
with Turkey holding Sev is easily achievable, but
it was clear to me that that wasn't the Turkish plan.
I'd like to thank all the commentators for their
interest, their comments and criticism, and their
kind words about my efforts push for the Solo
early on, and then to survive, once I was stabbed.
I look forward to commenting on 'comments2'.
Eric.
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