|
|
Austria: Builds 2 units
Italy: Removes 2 units
Turkey: Builds 2 units
Message from France to Italy
Dan,
I really thank you for playing out the tactics excercise
with me for this turn. Of course it is very good to see the
success, but it was a lot of fun to do all the thinking too.
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
Yeah - good to see some success. Onward and upward!
Message from Italy to all
> Italy: Fleet Tunis -> Tyrrhenian Sea. (*bounce*)
> Italy: Fleet Tuscany SUPPORT Fleet Tunis -> Tyrrhenian Sea.
> Turkey: Fleet Ionian Sea SUPPORT Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Tunis.
> Turkey: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Tunis. (*bounce*)
> Turkey: Fleet Western Mediterranean -> North Africa. (*bounce, dislodged*)
> The Turkish Fleet in the Western Mediterranean with no valid retreats was
> destroyed.
Ah nothing like the good ol' reverse attack!!!
Message from Italy to France and Russia
Well, moves went extraordinarily well on both counts. Tunis can now be
guaranteed to be held. Berlin is guaranteed in the spring, and with the
Austrian vacating Tyrolia, Munich can be guaranteed as well (but not
both). I think that if we take Munich in the spring, we can be guaranteed
Ber in the fall. If we do Berlin first, I think that we risk not being
able to take Munich in spring if A Prussia is dislodged and Austria
re-enters Tyrolia. Both of which are relatively likely, I'd say.
Can either of you find a hole in
Bur, Ruh S Kie-Mun
Bal-Ber
Pru-Sil
Stp S Lvn
Hel S Hol-Kie
Those moves seem to be all guaranteed. Then, in the fall:
Hmm actually there is no guaranteed attack in the fall, since Bur, Ruh and
Kie would all potentially needed to support Munich. I'll have to get back
to the drawing board on this one.
What do you guys think?
Message from Italy to Russia
Nicky,
Well, it's looking good for us. And, of course, by good I mean that our
anguish and suffering in this game seem like they'll be sustained for a
bit longer :-)
I thought maybe I'd share with you some of my initial thoughts on how we
can proceed from the position where France has 15 or so, with you and I in
key stalemate places like Tun and Ber (and maybe Mar) (should we get
there) to a position where we may be included in a draw of some sorts. It
was just a brainstorm, so if you've got other ideas or ways to improve it
or whatever, let me know.
The basic problem, as I'm sure you know, is that we can't really set any
ultimatums, since we can't guarantee who is setting draw. All Tamas needs
to do is claim to set draw but then not set draw, and he might coerce us
into throwing him a solo. So, how do we get around that?
My thinking was that you and I work together. The basic plan would be
that one of us gets off the line temporarily to try and reclaim a home
center. Mar-Pie-Ven, Tun-Tys-Nap, Ber-Sil-War, or something like that.
To do so, we demand that A/T back off the line on one of our sides.
Either clearing a guaranteed free path for you to claim WArsaw, or for me
to claim Ven/Rom/Nap, or we throw the solo to Tamas. The threat to Tamas
is that if he takes advantage of this (for instance, takes Berlin when
you're on your way to Warsaw), then the other one of us (me in this case)
agrees to never throw him the solo, and he has to settle for a 3-way draw.
Sure, he could just say who cares, but if Tamas really wants a 3-way draw
there's nothing either of us can do about it.
Details about what would come next, should THIS somehwo work are still
fuzzy, but that was my basic plan.
What do you think?
Message from Italy to France
In the south, how do you want to handle things? First off, what should I
remove. Or easier said, what should I keep. Clearly F Tun is a keeper.
My first thought was to keep F Lyo. But then I thought that it might be
interesting to keep A Pie, since it can do things a fleet can't.
Actually, now that I think of it, if I keep A Pie, it can cut Tyrolia's
support in the fall, which should guarantee Mun and Ber this year.
There's no risk of it being dislodged this spring, and when it's dislodged
in the fall, it can just retreat to Mar.
The only problem will be filling Lyo, which can be done with F Wes-Lyo, F
Mao-Wes. Might bounce, but probably not. Naf S Tun of course.
What do you think?
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
Mos S Lvn-Stp, huh? Interesting... So, what now? I'm in Tunis, and
you'll never get there unless Tamas decides to give it to you. Berlin and
Munich also look vulnerable. Perhaps the stab was a turn or two too
early?
So where do we go from here?
Message from Italy to Italy
I have to say that I am very confused / amused by T/A behavior. They
*continually* complain about how France does not do what he says he's
going to do wrt them, but yet they keep offering him supports that he
doesn't take, and make plans with him and believe him!!
Especially considering it is completely not in his best interests at all
to listen to either of them
Message from France to Italy and Russia
Hi guys,
I am working on moves right now. I agree that either Ber or
Mun can be guaranteed and am looking for a way to get both
this year. I will look at your moves, let me just comment
that it is also possible to keep A Pie, which can cut a
possibly crucial support in the fall.
I have already figured that A Pie can be safely kept, but it
might not be the best way to proceed still.
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
Hi Mario,
> In the south, how do you want to handle things? First
> off, what should I remove. Or easier said, what should I
> keep. Clearly F Tun is a keeper. My first thought was to
> keep F Lyo. But then I thought that it might be
> interesting to keep A Pie, since it can do things a fleet
> can't.
> What do you think?
Presently I think that the best option is keep A Pie and F
LYO(!)
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
F Lyo, huh? Enlighten me!
Message from France to Italy and Russia
> Can either of you find a hole in
>
> Bur, Ruh S Kie-Mun
> Bal-Ber
> Pru-Sil
> Stp S Lvn
> Hel S Hol-Kie
In this scenario I would rather play Lvn-War instead of
holding with it. That guarantees A Pru or A War unless Sil
S War-Pru, Mos-War, something which I feel can be safely
ruled out.
T
Message from France to Italy
Hi Mario,
> F Lyo, huh? Enlighten me!
Funny, isn't it? But I am sure that's the best. As you
point out, LYO is very important, and as it turns out it is
more important than Tun. In fact if you do not want to keep
Pie, I would encourage keeping Lyo and Tus. (Which is the
way to go if we do not need Pie-Tyr in the fall)
With Wes, Naf, Lyo we play one of the following two for as
many seasons as we want:
1. WES S Lyo-Tys, Naf-Tun
or
2. WES S Naf-Tun, Lyo-Tys
In both cases Tun is either kept or retaken the next
season. The best Turkey can do is to stall the moves for as
long as he can, but that requires that every single season
he has to guess right. And of course the later he guesses
wrong, the better for us because a French build needs to be
moved in place on the long run to complete the line.
Tamas
Message from France to Italy
p.s.
Oh, part of the argument is to notice that there is no way
to get a fourth Turkish fleet into play before Tunis is
cemented for good, because all three fleets needs to be
ordered properly to maintain the Turkish line (and keep
Tunis empty).
t
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
>Mos S Lvn-Stp, huh? Interesting... So, what now? I'm in Tunis, and
>you'll never get there unless Tamas decides to give it to you. Berlin and
>Munich also look vulnerable. Perhaps the stab was a turn or two too
>early?
I'm sure that Tamas will end up taking Tunis. You should have
demanded spain or something so you could insure your survival. now he
is just going to take Mar and tunis and squeeze you out like he
squeezed out England and Germany and will to russia too.
I can't support you in Tunis right now since I will need my supports
for my own units.
Message from France to Italy and Russia
How does this sound:
North:
Bur&Ruh S Kie-Mun, Hel S Hol-Kie, Bal-Ber, Pru-Sil, Lvn-War.
Apart from Mos-War, which I think is a quite small risk, we
have Bur, Ruh, Kie, and Pru/War.
Then in the fall:
Pie-Tyr, War/Pru-Sil, BAL S Kie-Ber, Ruh S Mun
We might not even need Pie, although it comes handy if by
some miracle Mos-War deprives us of Pru and War. In that
case Ber is not guaranteed though, I believe.
Does this seem correct?
Tamas
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
>
> Mos S Lvn-Stp, huh? Interesting... So, what now?
Not sure. Alot depends on what you disband.
I'm in Tunis, and
> you'll never get there unless Tamas decides to give it to you.
And Tamas can never take it as long as we are supporting it.
Berlin and
> Munich also look vulnerable. Perhaps the stab was a turn or two too
> early?
No....if we dont stab you, the positioning is exactly the same, and I have
2 less armies to work with.
>
> So where do we go from here?
Alot of that has to do with you.....if you keep Piedmont and Tunis, and
move to Marsaille with me moving up behind you it forces Tamas to use alot
of forces to take Marsaille.
But your disbands are your business.....
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
>
> I'm sure that Tamas will end up taking Tunis.
Im not.
You should have
> demanded spain or something so you could insure your survival.
Spain doesnt assure him of anything.
now he
> is just going to take Mar and tunis and squeeze you out like he
> squeezed out England and Germany and will to russia too.
He cant take Tunis unless we let him.
And he wont attack either one of them until progress has been made on
Munich and Berlin
> I can't support you in Tunis right now since I will need my supports
> for my own units.
Yes you can.....but it depends on what you Italy disbands.
Lets think about this further gentlemen.
Andy
Message from Italy to France
Well, I guess my only problem is how far do you think that we will get?
Even if we make it to Tys, do you ever see us getting into the Ionian?
Doubtful - it only takes one fleet to support Ion, and he'll have plenty
to do that. It's quite easy to create a stalemate line that holds all of
Italy from the east.
Plus, in your plans, it is YOU who takes Tunis. No offense, but I want to
be the one to stay in Tunis. If there was some benefit to having a fleet
further east, then I'd consider it, but like I said - where are we going
to go?
I think that militarily we can not make much of an advance, if any. Any
advances we make will have to be diplomatically.
I mean, I know that your #1 goal is a French solo. But it is not mine.
Certainly, F solo is a higher-reward ending than some other possible ones,
such as FAT, but I have not yet given up on being in a draw. Unlikely?
Yes. But still possible.
You can eliminate me whenever you want of course. But I think it is not
quite yet in your best interests to do so. If you want a FAT, you can
have it whenever you want. But if you want a solo, I think you need to
still play ball with Russia and I for a few more turns.
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
> And Tamas can never take it as long as we are supporting it.
Yep.
> Alot of that has to do with you.....if you keep Piedmont and Tunis, and
> move to Marsaille with me moving up behind you it forces Tamas to use alot
> of forces to take Marsaille.
My initial plan is in fact to keep A Pie and F Tun. I highly suggest that
you support Tunis with F Ion. If you lose Tun, Mun and Ber, this game is
over...
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
> > Alot of that has to do with you.....if you keep Piedmont and Tunis, and
> > move to Marsaille with me moving up behind you it forces Tamas to use alot
> > of forces to take Marsaille.
>
> My initial plan is in fact to keep A Pie and F Tun. I highly suggest that
> you support Tunis with F Ion. If you lose Tun, Mun and Ber, this game is
> over...
And if you disband those two fleets, TYS is not threatened
I agree completely with Mario on this. Without the Italian fleets in the
south, Tamas is at a REAL disadvantage.
We can secure Tunis and move our fleets around him and force him to accept
whatever terms we put forward.
Andy
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
>
>
> You should have
>> demanded spain or something so you could insure your survival.
>
>Spain doesnt assure him of anything.
He would keep 3 fleets, now he will only have 2 and I don't ever see
an Italian center getting open the rest of the game. do you have
such a scenario?
>
>> I can't support you in Tunis right now since I will need my supports
>> for my own units.
>
>Yes you can.....but it depends on what you Italy disbands.
that is true.
Message from Italy to France and Russia
Looks pretty good. A few thoughts.
> Bur&Ruh S Kie-Mun, Hel S Hol-Kie, Bal-Ber, Pru-Sil, Lvn-War.
>
> Apart from Mos-War, which I think is a quite small risk, we
> have Bur, Ruh, Kie, and Pru/War.
Well, technically, Mun-Ber, Sil S Ber-Pru would also not get us either
Pru or War, but that's pretty low odds.
> Then in the fall:
> Pie-Tyr, War/Pru-Sil, BAL S Kie-Ber, Ruh S Mun
And here, I think we need to switch this around. Kie S Bal-Ber, or better
yet, Kie S Lvn-Ber. It's Russia that needs to get Berlin. That's our
(Russia and me) only hope - to occupy keey positions on the stalemate
line.
As such, it might make sense for Den to go to Swe and then Fin/Bot in the
fall to support Stp once Lvn is gone.
Message from France to Italy
Mario,
You are right. I was making plans based on one of your
latest messages:
/---------------------------------------------
| It has crossed my mind that you may want me to vacate Tunis
| so you can take it yourself, but if that's the case, I'll
| just bow out peacefully. My units are for the most part at
| your disposal.
\---------------------------------------------
It might be good to get an agreement on the status of this
thing which we can keep ourselves to when doing the
planning. Otherwise we get confused.
I was not planning to go further than Tun with that. Tunis
would stay Italian as long as Turkey moves that way and I
would keep Marseilles Italian indefinitely.
> You can eliminate me whenever you want of course. But I
> think it is not quite yet in your best interests to do so.
> If you want a FAT, you can have it whenever you want. But
> if you want a solo, I think you need to still play ball
> with Russia and I for a few more turns.
I have no problem with that. I do not want to eliminate you
unless it is required for my solo, on the other hand I would
like to push the chances for getting a solo bid as high as
possible. Encouraged by the message quoted above, I moved
NTH-Den instead of NTH-Eng, which I believe would be needed
to fill the holes if for example you keep A Pie.
The real question is the following: let's say we stalemate
AT at 16 centers, that is we collect the 18. This is
probably a very realistic scenario now. You are correct, I
am fighting against FAT as hard as possible. I do not want
FAT by any means. But come the stalemated position when I
cannot eliminate you and Russia (for example if you are Tun
then I cannot), what to do? Will you really be happy with a
carebear 5-way draw? Will it be ethical? Everybody will
know, that it is _really_ FAT because that is what it
becomes if you follow the spirit of the game. If you want a
showcase of the 5-way, I think you being in Marseilles is
just as good. It is certainly not more carebear than Tunis.
Do I promise to set draw for the five-way? I think so.
Will everybody set draw? I am pretty sure. Will I keep my
promise? I'd like to think so but I know that I will be the
target of criticism which I 100% agree with. Of course, I
do acknowledge that what you are saying is identical to what
I would be saying in the same position.
If we are playing according to the spirit of the game then
Italy has no bargaining power. There are two sides, AT or F
either of which you help with your orders whatever you do.
Your decision. If I was in your place, I would certainly
chose to help France for many reasons: it is fair, because
you helped AT a lot already, it is "right" because they
stabbed you and (for me that's the most important) it
certainly is a much more exciting challenge. There are
other arguments which go to the other plate of the scale, it
is your decision.
My way of looking at the board is: what would I order if the
Italian and French pieces were of the same color? This is
the "best" move by definition. If we change those and that
compromises the chances of pushing them to 16 or my solo
chances, then I am disappointed. Of course, I can do
nothing against it and - as you can guess - I am still happy
to work together with you.
Tamas
Message from Austria to Italy
Mario,
there is another option, it gives a bit more flexibility.
Keep LYO and TUN
Turkey orders
TYS s TUN
ION and NAP s TYS
the only way that France could get Tunis is by LYO cutting support in TYS
and I dont think you will do that.
It sets us up to kick the French out of the Med and threaten the Iberian.
After thinking about it, I like it as an idea, it gives us big fleet
superiority in the Med. And it keeps you strong.
Let me know
Andy
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
> there is another option, it gives a bit more flexibility.
>
> Keep LYO and TUN
>
> Turkey orders
>
> TYS s TUN
> ION and NAP s TYS
>
> the only way that France could get Tunis is by LYO cutting support in TYS
> and I dont think you will do that.
>
> It sets us up to kick the French out of the Med and threaten the Iberian.
Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I set myself up in front of you
two to "kick the French out of the Med", didn't I just get stabbed?
So.... I don't think so.
Message from Italy to France
Well, do you see any way that we can advance past Tunis? i.e. take a
supply center on the Italian mainland? I don't. And as such, I don't see
any benefit for my units doing anything but Pie-Tyl and retreating to Mar
and Tun H.
> Do I promise to set draw for the five-way? I think so.
> Will everybody set draw? I am pretty sure. Will I keep my
> promise? I'd like to think so but I know that I will be the
> target of criticism which I 100% agree with. Of course, I
> do acknowledge that what you are saying is identical to what
> I would be saying in the same position.
I've got some ideas for how to proceed once we achieve the 18 center
position. I have talked them over with Russia, but am still trying to
iron the kinks out. Once Russia and I have figured somethign out, then I
will share them with you. I don't want to be premature and say something
that Russia does not agree with. I think that riht now, my only hope is
to stick with Russia, and vice versa.
> If we are playing according to the spirit of the game then
> Italy has no bargaining power. There are two sides, AT or F
> either of which you help with your orders whatever you do.
> Your decision. If I was in your place, I would certainly
> chose to help France for many reasons: it is fair, because
Well, right now, I am helping you. Continue to treat me right and I will
continue to help you.
> My way of looking at the board is: what would I order if the
> Italian and French pieces were of the same color? This is
> the "best" move by definition. If we change those and that
> compromises the chances of pushing them to 16 or my solo
Well, militarily, if you can see any way to take any center on the Italian
mainland, then let's hear the plan. Barring that, what is the poitn of
trying to advance into Tys?
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
>
> > there is another option, it gives a bit more flexibility.
> >
> > Keep LYO and TUN
> >
> > Turkey orders
> >
> > TYS s TUN
> > ION and NAP s TYS
> >
> > the only way that France could get Tunis is by LYO cutting support in TYS
> > and I dont think you will do that.
> >
> > It sets us up to kick the French out of the Med and threaten the Iberian.
>
> Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I set myself up in front of you
> two to "kick the French out of the Med", didn't I just get stabbed?
>
> So.... I don't think so.
>
Perfectly Fair.
Tunis is yours. We will keep you there.
Andy
Message from France to Italy
Hi Dan,
> I've got some ideas for how to proceed once we achieve the
> 18 center position. I have talked them over with Russia,
> but am still trying to iron the kinks out. Once Russia
> and I have figured somethign out, then I will share them
> with you. I don't want to be premature and say something
> that Russia does not agree with. I think that riht now,
> my only hope is to stick with Russia, and vice versa.
This is fine but I suggest that we finalize this before the
builds. Would that be ok?
I am actually very curious about this proposal. If I turn
it around, I could just ask you: what do you want, FAT or F,
assuming that you are dead. It is pretty convenient to pose
the question like what do _I_ want but it is really fake.
I see two real problems here. One is a technical: Turkey is
building two fleets and I am pretty sure that you can NOT
hand over Tun to me even if you wanted in a year's time.
And then what you threatened them is thrown out on the
window. I do not see any realistic chance for me to solo if
I do not get Tun/Ber/Mun. There is no way to break their
16-center stalemate line, that is out of the question.
The other problem is that my understanding is that they do
not want FAT. They want any draw. In fact, my guess is
that Turkey might be happier with a 5WD than a 3WD (not
Austria though), if what he is telling me, that this is a
proof of concept of my bad play he really means. That means
that you are bargaining with nothing really: you threatened
them with losing the game but in fact they do not.
Finally, and this gets back to the 1st paragraph, clearly
for our best results, the best would be to get done with the
5WD set-draw game now. Then either the game ends, or we can
always use the best strategy for F solo.
> > If we are playing according to the spirit of the game
> > then Italy has no bargaining power. There are two
> > sides, AT or F either of which you help with your orders
> > whatever you do. Your decision. If I was in your
> > place, I would certainly chose to help France for many
> > reasons: it is fair, because
>
> Well, right now, I am helping you. Continue to treat me
> right and I will continue to help you.
First, I am guessing that I have been pretty consistent
along this game. You probably do not expect to see any
change in the way I "treat" you, we have been foes and
friends and we got along pretty well. (Maybe this can be
added to the feature list :-).
> > My way of looking at the board is: what would I order if the
> > Italian and French pieces were of the same color? This is
> > the "best" move by definition. If we change those and that
> > compromises the chances of pushing them to 16 or my solo
>
> Well, militarily, if you can see any way to take any
> center on the Italian mainland, then let's hear the plan.
> Barring that, what is the poitn of trying to advance into
> Tys?
I do not want to advance to TYS but I like the idea of
keeping Lyo completely safe for more than a year and the
additional benefit of Pie. Actually, I would probably
expect ION S Tys-Tun on the other side, probably
indefinitely. And this way we hold the line with the
minimal set of units. If you stay in Tun, then I must move
into the stalemate position otherwise Turkish fleets can
start crawling along italy, threaten Lyo, etc.
Tamas
Message from Italy to France
> I am actually very curious about this proposal. If I turn
> it around, I could just ask you: what do you want, FAT or F,
> assuming that you are dead. It is pretty convenient to pose
> the question like what do _I_ want but it is really fake.
Right now, if I were to be eliminated either way, I would prefer F.
> I see two real problems here. One is a technical: Turkey is
> building two fleets and I am pretty sure that you can NOT
> hand over Tun to me even if you wanted in a year's time.
I could move Tunis, making their support void. They could order Ion S
Tys-Tun, as you say, but then that risks Naf S Tun, Tun, Wes S Lyo-Tys.
To counter that, they would need to have fleets in Nap, Rom and Tus to
make a beleagured garrison.
> And then what you threatened them is thrown out on the
> window. I do not see any realistic chance for me to solo if
> I do not get Tun/Ber/Mun. There is no way to break their
> 16-center stalemate line, that is out of the question.
Agreed. That is why I think it is crucial to Russia and myself that we be
in Ber and Tun.
> The other problem is that my understanding is that they do
> not want FAT. They want any draw. In fact, my guess is
> that Turkey might be happier with a 5WD than a 3WD (not
> Austria though), if what he is telling me, that this is a
Well, it only takes one (to not set draw). FWIW, I kind of doubt that you
would set draw on a 5-way.
> Finally, and this gets back to the 1st paragraph, clearly
> for our best results, the best would be to get done with the
> 5WD set-draw game now. Then either the game ends, or we can
> always use the best strategy for F solo.
I don't see AT setting draw while Austria still controls Ber/Mun
certainly.
Message from France to Italy
Mario,
> I could move Tunis, making their support void. They could
> order Ion S Tys-Tun, as you say, but then that risks Naf S
> Tun, Tun, Wes S Lyo-Tys. To counter that, they would need
> to have fleets in Nap, Rom and Tus to make a beleagured
> garrison.
Which they can easily get in few seasons, certainly less
than what it takes for me to wrap up Scandinavia. And that
pretty much risks everything.
> > Finally, and this gets back to the 1st paragraph, clearly
> > for our best results, the best would be to get done with the
> > 5WD set-draw game now. Then either the game ends, or we can
> > always use the best strategy for F solo.
>
> I don't see AT setting draw while Austria still controls Ber/Mun
> certainly.
I would certainly not want to try it but I am pretty sure
that they would set draw right now.
Tamas
Message from Italy to Austria
You may want to consider suggesting to your Turkish friend to not build 2
fleets. Right now, I have the power to throw Tunis to France if I want
to. I like this position, as it at least gives me the illusion of some
power in this game. If you start flooding the Med with fleets (i.e.
shuffling them into places like Tus and Pie), it could rob me of that
power. So if I start seeing that, then I'd be more willing to just give
it to him right now.
I mean hey face it at this point, you're the proverbial HWSM (he who
screwed me), so if I'm goign to be eliminated anyways, I prefer French
solo.
You don't need any more fleets to blockade the Med and ensure France even
with my help could never get past Ion and take another center. You might
lose Tys but a position is easily set up that holds all of Italy. So, it
doesn't hurt you to have Turkey waive a build or 2, or build armies.
Message from Italy to France
> Which they can easily get in few seasons, certainly less
> than what it takes for me to wrap up Scandinavia. And that
> pretty much risks everything.
Well, how about this. If I see them start getting in such a position,
where it would soon become impossible for me to throw Tunis to you, I
throw it to you. So, if Turkey builds 2 fleets as you say and starts
shuffling them around to places like Tus and Rom and such, I'll just throw
you Tunis right there.
> I would certainly not want to try it but I am pretty sure
> that they would set draw right now.
I highly doubt that
Message from Austria to Italy
Mario....cut me a little slack...not alot...but alittle.
Answer me one question with a solid logical answer, and I will seriously
consider telling him to waive a build.
What happens when he waives 2 builds and keep....LYO and TUN, and decide
to work with the French.
As you have so aptly reminded me.....we JUST screwed you.
And if the above scenario comes to pass, we cant hold the TYS right now.
Help me out here, how does it help us at all for him to waive a build or
2.
Message from Italy to Austria
Umm... well it is true that Tys can not be held, but you don't need to
hold Tys to control all of Italy from the east, no?
Tys retreats to Tus/Rom.
Tyl H
Ven, Rom S Tus
Nap S Ion
There you go.
Message from Austria to Italy
> Umm... well it is true that Tys can not be held, but you don't need to
> hold Tys to control all of Italy from the east, no?
>
> Tys retreats to Tus/Rom.
>
> Tyl H
> Ven, Rom S Tus
> Nap S Ion
>
> There you go.
You still havent given me a really good reason for not building any
fleets.
But I will go one step further with your situation.
With you plan, I sit on my hands. I cant make any moves to slow France
down.
He takes Mar. and one of MUN or BER as long as the Russian is helping him
and I dont get lucky.
Builds a fleet in BRE and waives the other build....gets the other of
Munich or Berlin and builds 2 fleets.
Now he takes Tunis, Sweden and Norway....
then St Petersburg.
Solo.
-------------------------
We have to force him to use more units than he wants to in the south.
And we have to convince the Russian to not work with him, but I dont see
that.
We need the extra fleets to not allow him to get the positioning in the
Med that he needs to win.
Andy
Message from France to Italy
> > I would certainly not want to try it but I am pretty sure
> > that they would set draw right now.
>
> I highly doubt that
Would be really interesting experiment. My guess is based
on what they say. I know that people say crazy things but
is not this pretty pointless?
I will look at the strategy you mentioned (see the precise
conditions under which Tun can be thrown). Notice however
that if for example you keep Pie and Tun, then already now
you cannot throw it: Nap S TYS, Tys S ION-Tun does not let
you out of Tun for at least two seasons (MAO-LYO) during
which Turkey will get to Tus/Gre by outguessing you. And he
can crawl further by good guessing. In any case, it is
probably a good idea to study this a little (then of course
my comment about chosing the best moves still apply :-().
Tamas
Message from Italy to Austria
How's he taking Tunis?
I certainly don't want him to take Tunis. Do you want him to take Tunis?
As such, Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Tus S Pie (or Ven, Rom S Tus) will ensure
he doesn't take Tunis.
My only point is that you do not need any new fleets to hold all the
centers you currently hold, assuming Italian cooperation. And that a good
way to continue to ensure Italian cooperation would be to not build any
more fleets.
And of course the corollary is as you pointed out, with Italian
non-cooperation, you can not hold Tunis, and France likely solos
Message from Italy to France
> I will look at the strategy you mentioned (see the precise
> conditions under which Tun can be thrown). Notice however
> that if for example you keep Pie and Tun, then already now
> you cannot throw it: Nap S TYS, Tys S ION-Tun does not let
> you out of Tun for at least two seasons (MAO-LYO) during
> which Turkey will get to Tus/Gre by outguessing you. And he
But if he's ordering Nap S Tys, Tys S Ion-Tun, how is he going to get a
fleet to Tuscany?
Message from Austria to Italy
> How's he taking Tunis?
>
Reread what I sent you....
Go to right after he builds F MAR.
Forces TYS. and takes TUN. CANT BE STOPPED.
> I certainly don't want him to take Tunis. Do you want him to take Tunis?
No.
> As such, Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Tus S Pie (or Ven, Rom S Tus) will ensure
> he doesn't take Tunis.
No it wont. It will insure he doesnt take Tunis assuming he doesnt add any
units to the mix, of which he can add 3 fleets if we arent pressuring him.
> My only point is that you do not need any new fleets to hold all the
> centers you currently hold, assuming Italian cooperation. And that a good
> way to continue to ensure Italian cooperation would be to not build any
> more fleets.
I disagree....see above.
> And of course the corollary is as you pointed out, with Italian
> non-cooperation, you can not hold Tunis, and France likely solos
If we sit on our hands, France likely solos.
Message from France to Italy
> But if he's ordering Nap S Tys, Tys S Ion-Tun, how is he going to get a
> fleet to Tuscany?
Right, I confused that with the guessing... In any case (as
you can tell), I do not have a map with me, so I guess I
should not be making wild claims :-)
later,
Tamas
Message from Italy to Austria
> Forces TYS. and takes TUN. CANT BE STOPPED.
>
> No it wont. It will insure he doesnt take Tunis assuming he doesnt add any
> units to the mix, of which he can add 3 fleets if we arent pressuring him.
No.
F Ion S F Tun
F Nap S F Tys
A Rom S A Tus
A Ven S A Tyl H
This is a stalemate line, it can not be broached, no matter if France
builds 100 F Mar's.
Tunis can only be attacked by Naf and Wes, so it's safe with just one
support (Ion)
Tys can only be attacked by Wes and Lyo, so it's safe with just one
support (Nap)
Tus can be attacked by Pie and Lyo, so it's safe with only one support
(Rom)
Tyl could be attacked by Pie and Mun (if and when he gets to Mun), so it's
safe with one support (Ven)
France will never take Tunis unless one of us wants him to.
Message from Austria to Italy
> > No it wont. It will insure he doesnt take Tunis assuming he doesnt add any
> > units to the mix, of which he can add 3 fleets if we arent pressuring him.
>
> No.
>
> F Ion S F Tun
> F Nap S F Tys
> A Rom S A Tus
> A Ven S A Tyl H
>
> This is a stalemate line, it can not be broached, no matter if France
> builds 100 F Mar's.
Ok.....I will tell him to waive one of his builds. Move one fleet to AEG
for convoying purposes as needed. Is this acceptable.
You make your point.....
Message from Italy to Austria
> Ok.....I will tell him to waive one of his builds. Move one fleet to AEG
> for convoying purposes as needed. Is this acceptable.
for convoying purposes where?
I'm a bit confused by the reent play out of both you and France. The Med
is stalemated. Nobody is going anywhere until
1) I decide to let one of you have Tunis
2) Both of you get sick of me and can agree on one of you to take Tunis.
My only chance involves trying to stop #2 from happening for as long as
possible. One way to do this is to ensure that if you let France have
Tunis he will solo.
You both seem to keep trying to accomplish things militarily that are not
going to happne except via diplomatic means.
My purpose in this whole build-waiving "scheme" is to ensure that I have
the power to throw Tunis to France. I will do this if I perceive that you
are trying to eliminate me. While I have this power, I at least have a
modicum of power and usefulness in this game. So, if I see that you are
trying to take this power away from me, then I feel I have to act as if
I'm about to be eliminated.
The only way you can guarantee that France can not take Tunis is to order
Ion S Tys-Tun. You can't just support Tun from Ion, since I could move
Tunis and void your support. But, that would open you to Naf S Tun, Tun,
Lyo S Wes-Tys. So you'd need 3 more fleets (in Tus, Rom and Nap) to act
as a beleagured garrison to save Tys.
So as long as I don't see fleets from you or Turkey heading this way to
get into that position, I think we're cool. I can handle one more fleet
(though again I ask really for what purpose?), but if I see a 2nd fleet,
I'm goign to have to start examining my options. And 2nd fleet means
means ever, from either of you. So, maybe a better option would be A Con,
F Smy. That way "the convoy" is ready whenever it needs to be, and
doesn't risk building another fleet unless another center appears out of
somewhere.
Andy, I realize that I probably sound very annoying. I know, possibly
more than you realize, what it's like to have a power with very few
centers strutting around making orders and such. It's annoying and/or
frustrating. But, I walk a fine line here. Desperate times call for
desperate measures, and all that.
Message from Austria to Italy
>
> > Ok.....I will tell him to waive one of his builds. Move one fleet to AEG
> > for convoying purposes as needed. Is this acceptable.
>
> for convoying purposes where?
>
> I'm a bit confused by the reent play out of both you and France. The Med
> is stalemated. Nobody is going anywhere until
You are right....dont need to convoy anything.
But I know I wont be able to convince him to waive both builds....
He and I have WAYYYY too much history.
> My only chance involves trying to stop #2 from happening for as long as
> possible. One way to do this is to ensure that if you let France have
> Tunis he will solo.
YOu are surviving and in the draw, as long as you dont give France a solo.
>
>
> My purpose in this whole build-waiving "scheme" is to ensure that I have
> the power to throw Tunis to France.
You have that anyway. You already have this power.
> So as long as I don't see fleets from you or Turkey heading this way to
> get into that position, I think we're cool.
So building 1 fleet is ok, as long as we dont try to move it beyond the
AEG.
>
> Andy, I realize that I probably sound very annoying. I know, possibly
> more than you realize, what it's like to have a power with very few
> centers strutting around making orders and such. It's annoying and/or
> frustrating. But, I walk a fine line here. Desperate times call for
> desperate measures, and all that.
You arent.....and you mostly make sense, I am just trying to balance it
with what I know the Turk will and wont be willing to do.
Mario....IN all seriousness....I would take a 5 way right now. I just dont
want to make the Turk nervous.
Message from Italy to Austria
> You are right....dont need to convoy anything.
The only thing we'd convoy is if a) he wanted to stab you or b) I
convinced you that if you didn't convoy me Mar-Smy that I'd give a solo to
France. Come to think of it, b) sounds kind of fun :-)
> But I know I wont be able to convince him to waive both builds....
> He and I have WAYYYY too much history.
He doesn't want to do it, have him talk to me. Or just forward the last 5
messages or so we've sent to it. Or have him build armies.
> You have that anyway. You already have this power.
Agreed. And as long as I still do, then hopefully I won't have to use it.
But if you try to take it away from me, then I have to use it before it's
gone, don't you think?
> So building 1 fleet is ok, as long as we dont try to move it beyond the
> AEG.
Sure. But really it's a question of degrees and subtelty. If you make me
feel like I'm losing power, then I have to re-evaluate.
> YOu are surviving and in the draw, as long as you dont give France a solo.
> Mario....IN all seriousness....I would take a 5 way right now. I just dont
> want to make the Turk nervous.
I don't know if I buy this. If you were down with a 5-way, why'd you stab
me? No need to stab me if all you're looking for is a 5-way.
Message from Austria to Italy
Dan...
Send Turkey mail explaining what you explained to me.
Andy
Message from Italy to Austria
Okay I will do that. I'll copy you on it too. Really, my ideal situation
is for F Naf S F Tun and F Ion S F Tun. As long as both of those happen,
and France remains in Wes and A/T in Tys, I can not be eliminated.
Message from Austria to Italy
>
> > Mario....IN all seriousness....I would take a 5 way right now. I just dont
> > want to make the Turk nervous.
>
> I don't know if I buy this. If you were down with a 5-way, why'd you stab
> me? No need to stab me if all you're looking for is a 5-way.
I wasnt when the stab started, but when the French didnt follow through
with thier part the wheels were already rolling. The only think I can do
at this point is tell you that I COMPLETELY understand your position, and
will do nothing to hurt it.
One of my mantra's on Dip is:
If someone is in position to throw a solo, it is foolish to give them
cause or inclanation.
Message from Russia to Italy
Mario,
> Well, it's looking good for us. And, of course, by good I mean
> that our anguish and suffering in this game seem like they'll be
> sustained for a bit longer :-)
Yeah, my 2nd Round VGFP game is going so smoothly that I'm
wondering when it's all going to go horribly wrong. ;-)
> All Tamas needs to do is claim to set draw but then not set draw,
> and he might coerce us into throwing him a solo.
Well, no, he'd have to support AT into our Centers, which we
really can't prevent, either, but if we get to Ber/Tun we just sit
and set Draw, and wait for FAT to decide what they want to do.
> My thinking was that you and I work together. The basic plan would be
> that one of us gets off the line temporarily to try and reclaim a home
> center. Mar-Pie-Ven, Tun-Tys-Nap, Ber-Sil-War, or something like
> that. To do so, we demand that A/T back off the line on one of our
> sides. Either clearing a guaranteed free path for you to claim
> WArsaw, or for me to claim Ven/Rom/Nap, or we throw the solo to
> Tamas. The threat to Tamas is that if he takes advantage of this
> (for instance, takes Berlin when you're on your way to Warsaw), then
> the other one of us (me in this case) agrees to never throw him the
> solo, and he has to settle for a 3-way draw. Sure, he could just say
> who cares, but if Tamas really wants a 3-way draw there's nothing
> either of us can do about it.
That seems reasonable, and I may even be able to get War or Mos
in this push we're making.
Nicky.
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
Italy,
So austria is saying that you are going to trhw the game to France if I build
fleets? and that you want me to waive my builds?
How about this for a compromise..I will build one fleet and one army...that way
I can get a fleet over to prevent further french encroachment, and then the
army will help make sure that no one thinks it would be easy to stab me....
just an idea,
Turkey
Message from Italy to Turkey
Well, that was the very highly condensed version of our talks this
afternoon. I'll write more about it tomorrow.
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
> So austria is saying that you are going to trhw the game to France if I build
> fleets? and that you want me to waive my builds?
>
> How about this for a compromise..I will build one fleet and one army...that way
> I can get a fleet over to prevent further french encroachment, and then the
> army will help make sure that no one thinks it would be easy to stab me....
Moving back to this. I never really said that if you build fleets that I
will throw the game to France. Basically, I like the power to throw the
game to France. It is in fact this power that is keeping me alive.
I mean let's face it, if I couldn't give Tunis to France, would you even
be bothering talking to me? So, my goal is to try and maintain this
power. So if you guys try to take that power away from me (which
certainly would be a valid strategy), then I feel I have to use the power
before I lose it.
So the only sutuation where I can see you taking away that power is if you
get fleets in Ion, Tys, Tus, Rom and Nap. So, limiting your fleet builds
is a sure way to ensure that I still have this power, and as such, to
ensure that I don't use it. I mean I don't WANT to see France solo, since
by definition I then lose. But as I said before, the threat of him
soloing is the only reason I'm still in the game.
As for your building one fleet - what is it oging to do? There is a
stalemate line that we can hold in the Med that requires no new units.
Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Rom S Tus, Ven S Tyl.
There is nothing that France can do to break that line. IMO, any extra
fleets give us no advantage against France, and only risk you putting
yourselves into position where I feel threatened and have to do crazy
things. I would recommend armies or waives.
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
> Moving back to this. I never really said that if you build fleets that I
> will throw the game to France. Basically, I like the power to throw the
> game to France. It is in fact this power that is keeping me alive.
>
> I mean let's face it, if I couldn't give Tunis to France, would you even
> be bothering talking to me? So, my goal is to try and maintain this
> power. So if you guys try to take that power away from me (which
> certainly would be a valid strategy), then I feel I have to use the power
> before I lose it.
Here are some things I believe:
1. If you are sure that you won't be eliminated, you won't throw the game to
France.
2. If you are sure you will be eliminated, then you will then throw the game to
France. This is a threat to help make sure you stay with 1.
3. This is a stalemate line that France can't cross: Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Rom
S Tus, Ven S Tyl.
What you haven't convinced me of is this:
> So the only sutuation where I can see you taking away that power is if you
> get fleets in Ion, Tys, Tus, Rom and Nap.
????
What are the orders where this results in you losing Tunis?
After you explain this clearly, then we discuss the other things that you and
Austria are bringing up. Until then, I think they are premature.
Thanks,
turkey
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
In order to keep me from giving Tunis to France, then you would have to
order Ion S Tys-Tun. You can't just support TUn from Ion, because I could
move F Tun and allow France to take it from Wes and Naf. So you'd have to
make your own attack. But, Ion S Tys-Tun leaves you potentially open to
Naf S Tun, Tun, Wes S Lyo-Tys. So to keep Tys, you'd need to have F Tus,
Rom and Nap to make your own 3-strength attack on Tys. If you had those
fleets and ordered Rom, Nap S Tus-Tys, IOn S Tys-Tun, there's no way that
I could give Tunis to France.
So, if I see you getting into that position, then I will have to consider
acting to give Tunis to France before I lose the ability to do so.
As long as I still have the power to throw the game to France, then
hopefully I will not have to do so.
I guess the real question is - what is building any fleets going to get
you? What will they do for you?
Message from Russia to Italy
Mario,
I'm trying to convince Austira to build a Fleet and work with
us to eliminate Turkey. You might want to consider keeping
Fleet Tuscany, if he agrees. I'll let you know.
Nicky.
Message from Italy to Russia
If Austria wants to go after Turkey, I will fully support him. But
until I see something out of him - he'd have to do an awful lot of
convincing to get me to keep anything but A Pie and F Tun.
Besides, if he really wanted to eliminate Turkey with my help, he'd have
stabbed Turkey - not me
Message from France to Italy
Mario,
> But if he's ordering Nap S Tys, Tys S Ion-Tun, how is he
> going to get a fleet to Tuscany?
Ok, I now looked at the map. Let's say Turkey builds two
fleets, if I understand correctly, that he can do without
harm still.
If you disband F LYO then we need to try get someone to LYO,
which should be WES. How do we play that? WES-LYO is
pretty much obligatory, we of course need NAf S Tun and we
can see WES-LYO, TYS-LYO, Con-AEG. Then what next? We can
play that again and Turkey can play TYS-LYO, Nap-Rom,
ION-Nap, AEG-ION. And so on. Will you be in position to
throw with certainty? I do not think so. If Turkey happens
to end up in LYO then the situation is not better either
even if I gain Tun.
What I am saying is not that your suggestion is unplayable
but that it does involve a lot of guessing and can easily
turn out badly. Of course, the decision is yours and of
course I will have to happily acknowledge whatever that is.
At this point, I have more or less realized that if the
Russian/Italian units were proxied to me then my solo
chances are close to 100%. I certainly _can_ chose better
orders than the "safe" ones you suggest. Do these increase
Italy's life expectancy? Certainly. Do these give more
chance to Italian survival? I doubt it. Do these increase
the chance of ATF? Definitely. Do not get me wrong, I am
not chickening out/stabbing you, or whatever. But I do
prefer both of us having a clear picture of what's going on.
best,
Tamas
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
>
> After you explain this clearly, then we discuss the other things that you and
> Austria are bringing up. Until then, I think they are premature.
Let me help here.
If we dont have the fleets in the area to occupy all of those spaces, then
we can stab him....
Do I have it correct, Mario?
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
> > After you explain this clearly, then we discuss the other things that you and
> > Austria are bringing up. Until then, I think they are premature.
>
> Let me help here.
>
> If we dont have the fleets in the area to occupy all of those spaces, then
> we can stab him....
>
> Do I have it correct, Mario?
I'm confused - maybe I'm missing something?
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
I will answer with the entire context of the message in there this time.
> > Moving back to this. I never really said that if you build fleets that I
> > will throw the game to France. Basically, I like the power to throw the
> > game to France. It is in fact this power that is keeping me alive.
> >
> > I mean let's face it, if I couldn't give Tunis to France, would you even
> > be bothering talking to me? So, my goal is to try and maintain this
> > power. So if you guys try to take that power away from me (which
> > certainly would be a valid strategy), then I feel I have to use the power
> > before I lose it.
>
> Here are some things I believe:
>
> 1. If you are sure that you won't be eliminated, you won't throw the game to
> France.
> 2. If you are sure you will be eliminated, then you will then throw the game to
> France. This is a threat to help make sure you stay with 1.
> 3. This is a stalemate line that France can't cross: Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Rom
> S Tus, Ven S Tyl.
>
> What you haven't convinced me of is this:
>
> > So the only sutuation where I can see you taking away that power is if you
> > get fleets in Ion, Tys, Tus, Rom and Nap.
>
> ????
>
> What are the orders where this results in you losing Tunis?
>
> After you explain this clearly, then we discuss the other things that you and
> Austria are bringing up. Until then, I think they are premature.
Italy is asking that we dont build fleets.
Currently we have armies in Rome and Apulia, if we were to replace them
with fleets, then we could muster a set of order to take Tunis from the
Italian without a solo chance for the French.
ie...if we dont have the fleets to put in position, he is safe. Especially
when armies will hold the stalemate line just as well.
Andy
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
>
> > Let me help here.
>>
>> If we dont have the fleets in the area to occupy all of those spaces, then
> > we can stab him....
> >
> > Do I have it correct, Mario?
>
>I'm confused - maybe I'm missing something?
I think that even if I waive both my builds, it would be difficult
for you to successfully stab me, without France first soloing.
I'm too lazy to think 3yrs in advance, but looking at the board right
now, it doesn't look very possible. but heh, go ahead.
here is what I'm building:
build army con
build fleet smy
here is what I'm moving:
ion s tun
tys-rom
nap s tys-rom
apu s tys-rom
rum-ser
sev-rum
mos-sev
con-bul
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
> ion s tun
> tys-rom
> nap s tys-rom
> apu s tys-rom
> rum-ser
> sev-rum
> mos-sev
> con-bul
This won't work. You can't give up Tys without also giving up Tunis to
France. So how about Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Apu-Rom, Rom-Tus?
Message from Austria to Italy and Turkey
>
> > ion s tun
> > tys-rom
> > nap s tys-rom
> > apu s tys-rom
> > rum-ser
> > sev-rum
> > mos-sev
> > con-bul
>
> This won't work. You can't give up Tys without also giving up Tunis to
> France. So how about Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Apu-Rom, Rom-Tus?
>
You mean besides the fact that its a big attack on me.....
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
> > This won't work. You can't give up Tys without also giving up Tunis to
> > France. So how about Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Apu-Rom, Rom-Tus?
> >
>
> You mean besides the fact that its a big attack on me.....
>
Sorry, I"m not looking at the map. Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys is critical.
Then you need to get armies into Rom and Tus. Or Tus and Pie. How you do
so, and what nationality those units are, is co mpletely up to you
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
> > > This won't work. You can't give up Tys without also giving up Tunis to
>> > France. So how about Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys, Apu-Rom, Rom-Tus?
>> >
>>
>> You mean besides the fact that its a big attack on me.....
>>
>
>Sorry, I"m not looking at the map. Ion S Tun, Nap S Tys is critical.
you can order: tus-tys s by tunis. France only has two fleets on you
right now.
I'm going to pop Rome, so in the fall, i'll be able to support you in tys.
Message from Italy to Austria and Turkey
I'm keeping A Pie and F Tun
Message from Turkey to Austria and Italy
we'll see after the game was over exactly what was going on here, but
for now...here are my orders
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1910. (comments.043)
Turkey: Builds an army in Constantinople.
Turkey: Builds a fleet in Smyrna.
If nothing foul happens, I will make sure that Italy and Austria have
no cuase to throw the game to France
Message from Austria to Italy
Are you privy at all to what the French siad to Turkey that is turning him
into a ultra paranoid psycho
Every normal man must be tempted, at times,
to spit on his hands, hoist the skull and
crossbones, and begin slitting throats.
- H. L. Mencken
Message from Italy to Austria
No - but he definitely has been acting weird. I mean, weird to the point
of I don't really understand what he's talking about. Literally.
Message from Austria to Italy
>
>
> No - but he definitely has been acting weird. I mean, weird to the point
> of I don't really understand what he's talking about. Literally.
>
He sent me this tirade about how he thought I was building in an
anti-Turkish manner and was going to attack him, and that the French
confirmed to him that those were going to be my actions...
Message from Italy to Austria
It boggles my mind how many times the Turk has agreed to / listened to
what France is saying (despite it not really being in France's best
interests to work with Turkey for most of the game). Then, when Tamas
doesn't follow through (because it's not in his interests to do so),
Turkey releases a tirade about how he can't stand France and how all he
does is lie. But then next season he's back on the boat? The same can be
said, to a certain extent, about you and France.
It's madness! Tamas must be the best diplomacy player in the history of
the world!
Message from Austria to Italy
But then next season he's back on the boat? The same can be
> said, to a certain extent, about you and France.
I talk to Tamas to find out what he is thinking.
I dont ever expect him to do anything he has promised me. But I have to be
indignant about it so that the other players see him as less trustworthy.
most of it is a show.
Austria: BUILD Army Trieste
Austria: BUILD Army Vienna
Italy: REMOVE Fleet Gulf of Lyon
Italy: REMOVE Fleet Tuscany
Turkey: BUILD Army Constantinople
Turkey: BUILD Fleet Smyrna
Centers
Austria: 9
France: 11
Italy: 2
Russia: 3
Turkey: 9
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