|
|
Austria: Removes 1 unit
France: Removes 1 unit
Russia: Builds 2 units
Turkey: Builds 1 unit
Message from Russia to all
I'd like to add my best wishes to those that others have sent around.
--- Eric
P.S. Sorry this is coming so late, but it was a busy day. I had to organize
all the animal entrails, clean out the sacrificial pit, get my horns buffed
-- it was just non-stop crazy.
Message from Russia to Turkey
>I let Andy into Greece because I didn't want him to get overrun by
>France. I wasn't planning on him putting a fleet there, though, and with
>France down two builds, I'll probably take it back this year.
That I understand, though I still want to see you beat France to Tun. Once
you get there, he'll never take it from you no matter what happens.
>I'll make sure to cover Bul, no problem, while we head west against
>Austria. I believe there was talk of my getting Tri before, and I'd like
>to continue with that. With A Rum, I can support Bud while you help me
>into Tri, and my fleets maneuver to retake Gre.
Only one problem: All of that was based on you taking Rum with a fleet. I
was very clear that I was expecting Bla-Rum as a way for us to DMZ our
border. By moving in A Rum, you are putting a TON of pressure on my border.
To me, A Rum is a CLEAR attack against me, which is why I said your moves
confused me. A Rum is an attack, but A Ser S A Bud is clear cooperation.
I'm just not sure where we stand.
I would really like to see you move A Rum back to Bul before helping you
get Tri. You are welcome to keep Rum, but I want it to be with your fleet.
Here's what I propose: A Ser S A Bud, A Rum-Bul, F Bla-Rum. I'll move an
army into Gal, and then in Spring I can support myself in Bud (Gal S Bud),
while supporting you into Tri (Bud S Ser-Tri).
Jason, I have helped you get four centers (Gre, Ser, Bul and Rum) in the
Balkans while I have taken only one (Bud). I have offered you an overall
Balkan split of 5 centers to 2 (you are still to get Tri and while I'll get
Vie), and I have offered to help you into Italy if you need it. I
voluntarily gave you Rum -- a center that 9 out of 10 Russian players
consider to be a home center -- in order to keep our growth even. I think I
have been an amazingly good ally to you.
But the only reason I can see that you have to put an army in Rum is to
give you the option to attack me. So I have to ask, if you do attack me,
what does it get you? Who is going to be your ally? Is either Austria or
Italy going to give you a better deal than I'm giving you? Is Andy going to
be willing to take just Gre and then turn away to fight France? And even if
he does, you still don't get any of the Italian centers I've promised you.
Is Philippe going to let you have two of his home centers and all of Italy?
I doubt it. The board is trying to line up in an anti-RT alliance, if we
fight we'll both lose while that comes together.
I just don't see how that's worth it for taking Sev, which is as far as you
will get if you come after me. But if you are not planning on attacking me,
then I don't see why you'd put A Rum in place. I find it hard to believe
that you would not expect me to react to that move. I just don't see the
point of undercutting all of the trust we've built up over the last several
seasons.
I *really* want to continue to work together. I think it's the best thing
for both of us, and I've worked really hard to come up with ways for us to
cooperate that help us both. As usual when I'm trying to make what I think
is an important point, I'm probably going on too long. But I hope it's
clear that I'm making such a big deal because I really am committed to RT
cooperation (and not Rt or rT cooperation). I hope you will seriously
consider my points and agree to pull out A Rum so we can both push forward
comfortably.
Hope you had/are having a great holiday, and get back to me when you have a
chance.
--- Eric
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
It was a good year for you, diplomatically, as far as I can tell from
England. Good job, patching things up as well as possible with Italy - now
it is decision time.
Good luck, and I'll let you know if I hear anything that may be of
assistance to you.
Ben
Message from Master to all
Players,
I've extended the deadline per a player's request.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from Turkey to Italy
Well, I just got a very long, somewhat whint note from Russia, wondering
how, just how I could possibly do something as terrible as move A Rum
when he's done SO much for me in return. Gack.
Anyway, I'm looking at A Ank or A Con (probably Ank), but obviously I'll
need F Gre to not get greedy for me to take on Russia.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Well, not so good given that Russia is incensed over A Rum. Italy and I
are on good terms, though, and looking for me to head north, obviously.
Hopefully you can regain Den and Nwy, and expand somewhat in France as well.
Good luck over there.
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Sheesh, after your stab of England, I'm not sure why you're getting so
high and mighty on me.
You did offer me 5 Balklan centers, but three of those are Gre, Bul and
Ser! Those are mine unless you actually attack me; not exactly generous
on your part. For that matter, you're now at 9 centers, and with your
stab of England, clearly headed for more in the middle of Europe.
Right now, you're not offering me anything other than the chance to let
you win. You're sitting in Mun and Den pretty much assured that. If you
can offer me a real deal that does not simply involve keeping your
comfortable to your south while you roll west, I'm all for it.
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason,
as long as you dont try to kick me out, ie...make supported attacks on
Greece...Im not moving.
I will do what I can to the west.
Andy
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
Again, I am completely confused by your message. Your basic message seems
to be that I am somehow taking advantage of you by following all of the
plans that you have agreed to.
1) You complain that I attacked England.
Well, I did attack England. You and I never had any agreement that said I
wouldn't. In fact YOU said I should get my builds from the north. I am, and
now you are complaining. I don't see what the problem is.
2) I haven't helped you all that much in the south.
You don't really believe this do you?
o I gave you Rum voluntarily.
o I suggested to Austria that he support you to Ser, and helped ensure the
move happened (you would not have Ser without that).
o I have not threatened you with a fleet build the multiple times I could
have. (You haven't done this to me either, but it is still cooperation on
my part.)
o I have gotten nothing from the south beyond the normal Russian F1901
position (one Balkan center total).
o I helped ensure that Italy was weakened so he couldn't put up a battle
against you (that's something that comes with England being distracted: if
England builds fleets, France dies and Andy can focus on keeping you out of
the Med. I don't know if you are paying attention to this point).
3) I can still make gains in the north.
Right. That's our agreement. I make gains in the north, you make them in
the south. You seem to be saying that I should be offering you all of the
Balkan and Italian centers and trying to do badly in the north.
4) I have nine centers to your six.
You had seven centers but gave up one without giving me any warning you
were going to. I have nine because I voluntarily gave you one to make up
for my lead. Russia starts with an extra center, so this means that overall
I've gained exactly one more center than you have to date. Turkey also has
a more secure position than Russia, and needs fewer centers to do well in
the early- to mid-game, so until you are setting up stalemate lines it's
traditional for Russia to have a few more units, due to the need to operate
on two fronts.
Are you really saying that you want to throw away our whole alliance
because I'm one center ahead of you? That's what it sounds like to me. That
seems silly, because the ONLY way you could be eliminated is if you and I
fight, but you seem to be saying we should.
5) I have no right to be upset with your press, because I attacked England.
I will try to make it clear again: I have been completely honest with you
in all of my press, and you are acting as if taking Rum with an army is a
setup for cooperating with me. As I've tried to explain above, I think it's
a bad move for you to attack me, but what really bothers me is you
pretending that you took Rum with an army to help me. If you want to attack
me and screw up both of our positions, that's one thing, but at least be
straight with me about it.
6) I'm not offering you anything useful.
I am still offering Tri and support into Italy while I focus north. That's
six centers total for you. If you want to fight, then you and I can both
spend a lot of time fighting over Bud/Rum/Sev. You'll have to pull units
back and let Italy come after you, I'll have to do the same. Neither of us
will grow and England and Italy will take out France and set up defenses we
can't break. That would be really bad for both of us, but that seems to be
the "better" option you are suggesting we follow.
You say that I'm not offering you a "real deal" despite everything noted
above, the fact that I've done everything we've agreed to and that I have
consistently asked if there is anything else we need to discuss and you
have never raised any of these concerns before. I think you are just trying
to bully me into a deal that gets me to help you (into Tri) while you set
up to attack me. I am totally serious when I say that I cannot imagine what
more I could do for you short of intentionally sabotaging my northern
position. So if you see some "real deal" that I should be offering that
isn't stupid for me to agree to and goes beyond what I've already offered,
tell me what it is.
You are the one that set up to attack me, and you are the one that will
either continue the attack or back off. I think it would be a shame to blow
both of our positions after we've worked so hard to build them up, but it's
clearly your call.
--- Eric
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Well, not so good given that Russia is incensed over A Rum.
> Italy and I
> are on good terms, though, and looking for me to head north,
> obviously.
*I'd* sure appreciate it. If you don't mind me asking, why'd you support
him in BUD?
> Hopefully you can regain Den and Nwy, and expand somewhat in
> France as well.
Thanks. I hope you solo. ;-)
> Good luck over there.
And to you, my friend.
Happy New Year.
Ben
Message from Turkey to England
Sorry for the delayed reply, but now that New Years has passed us by,
it's back to Dip!
The Bud support was basically to deflect his criticism over A Rum. I was
hoping he would see me as still helping him, although it didn't work out
that way. As I said, he's fairly irritated with me. :-)
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Sorry for my delayed response over the holidays.
Eric, I appreciate the work that we've done together, and I'm glad that
we have both enhanced our positions because of it. However, I really
don't understand your surprise over my concern with your position. You
have a lot of room to run in the north, and if I support you
wholeheartedly, I'll just be handing you the game. I presume that's the
whole thrust of your game, to win.
Yes, you have abided by every agreement that we've made, and I've done
my best to help you, even supporting A Bud when that wasn't in my best
interests, as a show of support.
You seem fixated on A Rum, however, and while I understand why you might
be concerned, you seem to see it as your ultimate destroyer. Given
such an overreaction, it makes me wonder if we can work together in the
long term.
jason
Message from Russia to Turkey
Before going into a specific response, let me say that I appreciate the tone
of this message from you. I hope it's been clear that while I've gotten
pedantic and detailed, the point is to try to come to agreement and
coopearation between us, not to express anger or get you defensive.
> Sorry for my delayed response over the holidays.
Not a problem. I have not been online for several days myself. Oddly relaxing
to get away from the game for a while. :) Happy new year, by the way.
> Eric, I appreciate the work that we've done together, and I'm glad that
> we have both enhanced our positions because of it. However, I really
> don't understand your surprise over my concern with your position.
My surprise is more along the lines that you haven't talked to be about it.
Pretty much every turn I ask you "is there anything else we need to discuss?"
and you haven't said anything. I thought that any serious concerns would be
discussed rather than show up in the form of a broken agreement.
> You have a lot of room to run in the north, and if I support you
> wholeheartedly, I'll just be handing you the game.
How do you see this happening? This is a serious question. I'm going to
outline how I see the north:
I can get into Germany, but I have one fleet -- two if I build F StP, against
five English fleets. Even if France and Germany combine against England
(unlikely), he'll have three to four fleets left. So I'm not going to be
making progress against him. I'll only make progress on land past Germany if
France falls. That is not likely to happen if you are attacking Italy. So
again, us cooperating seemed to be a long term good thing for both of us to
me.
> I presume that's the whole thrust of your game, to win.
Anything I answer to this is suspect, because if I say "yes" then you'll say
"see, you are manipulating me" and if I say "no" then you won't believe me.
The answer is somewhere in between. The thrust of my game is to get a decent
position, try to keep it from falling apart, and see what opportunities arise
from that position to get it better. Very rarely that actually leads to a
win, which as with most players is the preferred result, but I am perfectly
happy with a draw.
> Yes, you have abided by every agreement that we've made, and I've done
> my best to help you, even supporting A Bud when that wasn't in my best
> interests, as a show of support.
As noted below, this was not lost on me.
> You seem fixated on A Rum, however, and while I understand why you might
> be concerned, you seem to see it as your ultimate destroyer. Given
> such an overreaction, it makes me wonder if we can work together in the
> long term.
Well, I'm glad you will at least acknowledge that I'm not completely insane
to be concerned. :)
If us being able to work together "in the long term" means that you that you
can break our agreements if you are worried about me, or that you need a
position that allows you to attack me whenever you decide to, then frankly,
no, we probably can't work together. Moving A Rum was a stab. And it isn't
just A Rum that's the problem, but A Rum combined with F Bla.
I have no problem with you being worried about me; I'm worried about you too.
I just expect that if you want to cooperate that you'll negotiate something
that addresses your concerns rather than breaking agreements to suit your
needs. You broke our agreement in a way that is very threatening to my
position because you are worried about me. When I express concerns about what
you might do after breaking our agreement, you accuse me of overreacting. And
you seem to expect me to continue to follow the agreement without worrying
about what you might do. That's quite a double standard.
I recognize that you supported me in Bud when it didn't directly help you.
That is why I haven't written off RT cooperation. I really want to see RT
continue, because without it, either of our positions could crumble. That's
why I gave you Rum, something that doesn't directly help me. And it's also
why I keep writing these long, possibly annoying, messages. But yeah, A Rum/F
Bla really *is* a big problem for me. We need to to work out something out
that we can both be happy with to keep RT going.
I've given you my offer (put a fleet in Rum, move the Army to Bul), and
you've said no. So what's your alternative? I've asked this a couple of times
and haven't seen an answer yet.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
A shorter message just to deal with the immediate pragmatics. From a
pragmatic point of view, how do you want to move forward?
Given that you have A Rum, an army build would concerning for me, especially
if it were not in Con. A fleet build in Smy would be my ideal, obviously.
With A Bul (assuming you moved Rum-Bul as I'm asking), you could then support
yourself to Gre, take Tri with my support and move a fleet to Aeg to get a
have a 3 vs. 2 attack on the Ion, which would get you moving into Tun and
Nap.
If you don't build a fleet, then you probably won't be able to make headway
against Andy on your own, even though you might be able to retake Gre in the
short term. And if that's the case, I'd like to know what kind of support you
would expect from me, and what assistance you would provide to me. Again, so
far the only thing you've offered is that I should support you to Tri in
Spring while you hold Rum and Bla and prepare to take Gre. Is that my only
option? F Rum isn't negotiable? Vacating Bla isn't even an option?
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
Ok, now that floc is back up, to your two missives:
First, I appreciate your understanding as well. And no, the question
about "do you play to win" wasn't a trick question, just rhetorical.
I see your point about EF holding on in the west. I'll go ahead and
build A Con to move into the Balkans, looking to build F Smy next turn.
I'll also plan to move A Rum out of harms way, as it were. Italy should
still be tied up with France and not going anywhere, so that will give
me ample opportunity.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Can you by any chance cooperate with France to hold Russia where he is,
and maybe push back a little?
Here's where I am: if I attack Russia, he can hold Sev with Ukr and Mos,
while Austria gets Bud, leaving me with maybe Gre and very little room
to maneuver. If I keep working with Russia, though, I can get Tri and
Gre for free, and move into the Med in force.
I know you want me to move north, but unfortunately it doesn't get me
anywhere. Will Russia overrun you if that's the case?
jason
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Can you by any chance cooperate with France to hold Russia
> where he is, and maybe push back a little?
I would like to but I don't know if France will let me.
> Here's where I am: if I attack Russia, he can hold Sev with
> Ukr and Mos,
> while Austria gets Bud, leaving me with maybe Gre and very little room
> to maneuver. If I keep working with Russia, though, I can get Tri and
> Gre for free, and move into the Med in force.
Ok, I read this, and I hear through what you've been writing that Eric's
been working you over pretty well. Remember when you are dealing with Eric,
that he is silver tongued. I'm not saying, jam your fingers in your ears
and don't read his press, I'm just saying, think *very* *hard* about what
he's writing you.
For instance, if you attack Russia, and as you say UKR and MOS are forced to
defend SEV, what will happen elsewhere on the board? I can tell you - he
will not be able to hold Scandinavia, because he will be trying to defend
himself from you, so we will be able to squeeze him. Eventually MOS will
fall *to you* because he will be pressured from the north. Meanwhile you
will be the dominant force in the Balkans and will get to choose between A
and I for an ally against the other, while you grow and prepare to clean
them both out. With weakened AIR there will *never* come a time when you
can be eliminated and you will have a final say in the endgame. If I and F
stay at each others' throats, as it looks like they may, so much the better;
it keeps the Italian fleets far away.
Turkey does not win by growing quickly. Turkey wins by growing slowly, and
the southern Russian centers are an important piece of that yellow puzzle.
Long term, an RT on this map plays out as I see it this way: Russia grows
against me and against Germany. With a safe southern flank, he can attack
me with France - who will turn on me in a heartbeat if he thinks I am
vulnerable to Russia; if you need proof of this, simply look back to his MAO
- IRI, which was an attempt by him to rip off some of my centers while I was
attacked by Eric, but Eric's attack didn't come, so Erik pulled back [deep
breath - run-on sentence]. Meanwhile with a large Russia you will never be
safe - he will always have an opportunity to jam the knife in.
When you read the board, read the German dots as Russian. Because for now,
they are. Tony exists as Eric's pawn and his dots are *on loan* from Eric.
In the next couple of seasons, there are only one or two dots available
whichever way you go. Try to think about how you see things playing out
*beyond* that, into the endgame. I am glad to be your sounding board, and I
will try hard to take off my English-colored glasses, if you would like to
just bounce things off me.
Good luck, my friend.
Ben
Message from Turkey to England
As you say, Eric talks a good game. :-)
Thanks for the reply. I mentioned that to you knowing that you probably
saw the board differently.
While I agree that me going after Russia now lets you guys make
progress, my main fear is in being boxed in the corner. No, I won't get
eliminated, but if France or Italy can blockade me in the Med, I'm not
going anywhere either, even if I do get Mos.
I already see Ber and Kie as Russian, no question there. With Vie, he'll
have 12 centers. I'll get Tri and Gre, giving me 8, plus whatever I can
get in Italy. The main question I see is, can I get stuff in Italy
faster than Russia can move into France and Britain. He is short on
fleets, which will give you an advantage, and France is disbanding a
unit now.
If I attack him now, I run a real risk of bogging down in the corner,
and possibly facing AI together, depending on how France does. If I work
with him some more, I can get to Tun and be in a position to go in any
direction.
Right now, I'm building A Con to preverse my flexibility. We'll see how
to builds go.
jason
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
Let me take this alittle out of order:
> Right now, I'm building A Con to preverse my flexibility. We'll see how
> to builds go.
This makes perfect sense to me. No arguments.
> As you say, Eric talks a good game. :-)
Just keep your antennae up - we are on the same page on this.
> Thanks for the reply. I mentioned that to you knowing that you probably
> saw the board differently.
Yeah, I read somewhere that your most distant neighbors are the ones most
likely telling the truth.
> While I agree that me going after Russia now lets you guys make
> progress, my main fear is in being boxed in the corner. No, I won't get
> eliminated, but if France or Italy can blockade me in the Med, I'm not
> going anywhere either, even if I do get Mos.
A couple of things I want to expand on in here: Eric's apparently told you
you can not make progress against him. What I'm telling you is, that's
not correct. He will collapse if you press him from the south. Tony, no
fool, will try to reassert himself against Eric, reclaiming his own
centers, and I will stake my claim in the north. You will get SEV, and
MOS, to boot, in time, but the real gains will be in the Balkan/Austrian
centers, where you will be the big dog. Your A CON sets this up nicely.
> I already see Ber and Kie as Russian, no question there. With Vie, he'll
> have 12 centers. I'll get Tri and Gre, giving me 8, plus whatever I can
> get in Italy. The main question I see is, can I get stuff in Italy
> faster than Russia can move into France and Britain. He is short on
> fleets, which will give you an advantage, and France is disbanding a
> unit now.
I agree. But if I end up locked up against Russia, as the only player
attacking him, as sure as I'm sitting here Erik will sneak up behind me and
I will collapse, with a Russian advance getting most of the benefit. Keep
in mind - Erik's already tried that once.
Concerning Andy, Erik's removal will likely be a southern fleet. Andy will
be free to follow whichever course he pleases - what do you think the best
method is to get him to fight France? What can /you/ do to get him to turn
against France?
> If I attack him now, I run a real risk of bogging down in the corner,
> and possibly facing AI together, depending on how France does. If I work
> with him some more, I can get to Tun and be in a position to go in any
> direction.
You are a long long way from TUN. Erik and Andy both know how important it
is to keep you out - you are just as close to MOS as you are to TUN. And
as long as Russia is strong, there is a significant danger of you being
eliminated. Once Russia is weak, Turkey is here to stay.
Anyway I think you are making the exact right decision for your build, and
for the exact right reason.
Good luck.
Ben
Austria: REMOVE Fleet Albania
France: REMOVE Army Piedmont
Russia: BUILD Army St Petersburg
Russia: BUILD Army Warsaw
Turkey: BUILD Army Constantinople
Centers
Austria: 2
England: 5
France: 5
Germany: 2
Italy: 5
Russia: 9
Turkey: 6
|