|
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Austria: Removes 1 unit
France: Removes 1 unit
Russia: Builds 2 units
Turkey: Builds 1 unit
Message from Observer to Observer
It'll be a while before Ben reads this (I think!), but I can't miss the
opportunity ... and it might cast some light on some of Ben's
*****
Cripes. If I'd been Russia I would have waited alittle longer, as I implied
earlier. Though this was of course best, for Eric, attacking as I go out of
position in another direction, and keeping me from getting *any* builds.
Brent, this is eerily familiar.
Ben
*****
Reference to Brent is from Ben's play as Germany in teachme3 (where Brent
was his coach). Ben was stabbed bigtime by Russia just as he was going for
France. I was playing Austria (with David Hertzman as my [excellent] coach)
and unfortunately failed to capitalise on the free-for-all in German
centres - Ben ended up as a single-centre puppet in StP in an
[unsatisfactory] 4way draw. But it seems Ben has hit the same problem again,
in that just as he stabs one player, his 'ally' at the rear stabs him.
Perfect timing by Eric, in my view, at least tactically (see below for
comments on strategy and diplomacy).
From memory in comments1 Erik Diehn had a tendency to react badly in the
intial presses after being stabbed (don't we all?!) and this time round
there wasn't enough time for/dialogue between Ben and Erik to rebuild those
bridges (or at least Ben had already made up his mind to persist with the
attack on France - to be fair to him, in press to self he recognised the
potential risks he was taking). Much credit here goes to Eric for sensing
the time was right to stab, although as he points out idealy Ben would have
been disbanding.
Ben also made reference to the game zulu on USTX. He played Russia in that
game and became a big leader midway through by stabbing EG at the same time
as cleaning up Austrian centres [stabbing an inept Italian at the same time,
I'll leave you to work out who *that* might have been ;) ].
But as things panned out he became too big too quick, jumping from 10 to 14
in one year. By doing so he had overstretched himself, and spent the next
year having to consolidate rather than push on for the quick win (there were
still sufficent Turkish Italian and German units around that could have
inconvenienced him seriously). There were still opportunities where he could
have soloed, but the point is well made - by becoming too big too quick he
galvanised the 'stop Russia' alliance [eventually] and in the end the game
petered into a 3way FRT.
It's not clear yet, but it may be that Eric is making the same error here. A
lot depends now on Andy's actions, and how Jason plays over the coming
seasons. If Andy goes west and helps Ben clean up France quickly, then Ben
has a chance of holding the northern seas against Russia. Having said that,
if RT persists then Eric has a big solo chance, since a year or two more
progress in the Balkans followed by an effective stab of Turkey (and maybe
Germany) could see victory. Certainly the diplomacy in the north is working
hugely in Eric's favour at the moment, and getting Tony on board as a puppet
is a big help (what a handy player to have working for you!).
In the south Jason's moves and press appear confusing, though he may have a
clearer plan that he either hasn't outlined to the rest of us, or I have
missed. If he's sticking with Russia, then I see a Russian solo as a big
chance, if he stabs, then the game becomes much more wide open. Having said
that, by sticking with Russia a while longer he gives himself a biger chance
of staying in a draw (assuming Russia doesn't solo) whereas a stab now may
leave him open to an IR assault, depending on Andy's position (not to forget
Philippe).
Anyway, some musings. I really have intended to comment more on the game
recently, since there has been a lot of interesting stuff going on, but what
with Christmas parties and the like there hasn't really been time. Then
again, I am up at midnight on Christmas Night typing diplomacy emails, so
maybe I need to rearrange my life priorities somewhat anyway!
Merry Christmas to all (bit late for the players, I know, but hey).
Alastair
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
I accidently deleted your last message.
I had assumed it was a freebee as well, until;
Eric sent me an odd message complaining about Jason's moves
as being not as planned.
And Jason told me before that he was going to force it, then walked in...
but told me that he and Eric were supposed to DMZ it.
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Eric sent me an odd message complaining about Jason's moves
> as being not as planned.
> And Jason told me before that he was going to force it, then walked in...
> but told me that he and Eric were supposed to DMZ it.
Jason told me he was owed RUM as part of negotiations and would collect.
If it had been hostile there would have been support from SER. Which isn't
to say there *won't* be conflict there soon - I just don't think we've seen
it yet.
Why would Eric keep the fleet? I thought that was odd.
No rush.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Two responses for the price of one:
> I don't see how I could possibly trust you to work with me
I 100% understand this sentiment. I would no doubt feel the same in your
shoes.
But I am not in your shoes, I am in my own, and I would encourage you to
look at the map as I see it - my fleet in MAO is useless against you, and
ENG is vacant. We can decide how we want to play it, we have choices, but
as a practical matter I *can't* attack you. So you are angry at me, good
lord you should be. But you do not have to *trust* me right now - that can
come later - right now you only have to trust that I will do the sensible
thing and line up against the leader.
> I mean, really, why should I work with you? You've
> proven that you carry grudges an inordinate amount of time,
Hm. Ok, I admit it.
> you're easily manipulated by other nations,
Well, I resent "easily." But I'll admit I've been manipulated here, by
Eric.
> you're willing to ignore a serious solo
> threat for your own personal gain,
Part and parcel with being manipulated by Eric. This is where you and I
have each been victimized.
> and you are not able to resist grabbing
> my centers no matter what the long-term cost.
I repent! This one I won't do anymore!
> Hey, I know I placed a fleet
> in Iri for a little opportunistic bloodletting,
Yes, and in your first presses afterward you also lied about it. You live
in a glass house, as do we all.
> but when I saw that it was
> a bad move in the long-term, I pulled way back.
You set an example I intend to follow.
> I do not believe you are
> capable of doing the same. You are clearly going to be a threat to me for
> as long as I remain in the game.
Do you really think I'm some kind of sicko who would rather play to
eliminate you, than try to survive? I deny this charge.
> Because of you, I've lost two centers, lost any chance of peace with the
> Italian and I look like a fool in front of all the other powers.
Andy does not want "peace," he wants what's in his best interest. He will
have a tough time pressing against you, and soon enough circumstances will
force him to turn around.
> Frankly,
> at this point, I think Eric pretty much deserves the solo, and I'm still
> angry enough to do what I can to hand it to him -- my chances of even
> drawing are gone, thanks to your moves. Maybe I'll change my mind in the
> next few days.
I hope so. Think about it - it is pretty early to start talking about
throwing the game, I think.
> Vacate Bel and/or Hol, and I might change my mind. That's about the only
> thing I can think of at this point.
I intend to work with you and/or Germany to pin back the Russian. That is
priority #1. I have none - zero - attachment to any particular dot, but
before we get into tactics, let's see the builds.
> I'll still listen to your reasoning, though, so feel free to try to
> convince me otherwise.
I'm working on it.
On to letter #2:
> Since we clearly have much discussion, I should tell you that I will be
> retreating to Pic. That doesn't necessarily mean I'll keep it there (I
> have a disband coming), but since you're pretty high on my sh*tlist right
> now, I'd like to keep my options open. Just thought I'd warn you ahead of
> time.
You don't have to! I *asked* you to keep that army! I am aware I am on
your shotlist - the * is for o, right? - but as dangerous as that army is,
I *want* you to have it, because it will be crucial for stopping the R(g).
I think Tony might want to work with us but that's something we will have
to think about carefully, as he is a cunning little sh*t.
> Enjoy the lump of coal I've had special delivered to your stocking ;).
Good lord. Another one?!
I want to conclude by quoting myself - this is from the first press I sent
you today:
> Message from BHarris@StAttorney.org as England to France in 'c2':
>
> Erik -
> [major snip]
>
> Ben
>
> p.s. Retreat the army - do not disband it - we will need it to deal with
> the German centers. And I say this, absolutely aware that you could use it
> to hurt me. But there is a higher cause right now, and that is, that we
> play well, and not embarass ourselves any further in front of the gallery.
As you can see, I am prepared to take risks to work with you, even after I
have every reason to be afraid of your counter-stroke. Because we do not
play to lose.
Ben
Message from Russia to all
I'd like to add my best wishes to those that others have sent around.
--- Eric
P.S. Sorry this is coming so late, but it was a busy day. I had to organize
all the animal entrails, clean out the sacrificial pit, get my horns buffed
-- it was just non-stop crazy.
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
First off: I love your press. By far the most enjoyable part of this game
for me.
>You write this as if we are now locked into our courses. I do not think
>/you/ think that way; I know *I* don't.
You are completely correct, I am not wedded to any path. But I didn't want
to be unreasonably optimistic either.
>Consider whether you want to dominate the North and the Austrian home
>centers simultaneously. You will be the early leader and there will be no
>solo for you - trust me, I've tried (zulu on ustx - just finished). I
>continue to be no threat to you, though as you commented yourself, beyond
>DEN there's just not much there for you. More profitable would be the
>German centers first, I would think. . .
Well, that was not what I was going for. My moves were based on an
optimistic (yet -- I thought -- not totally unrealistic) set of
expectations that did not come to pass. You'll be able to see some of the
details when you look at the press log, and you can ask me about it if you
still have questions from then.
>If you build in the north you will be facing - my guess - an EIT. If you
>do not threaten me with a northern build then you will be free to operate
>without the early leader albatross around your neck.
But the more meaty question is: where does it leave us? Is me not pushing
forward good enough to mend fences? That still sounds along the lines of
the unreasonably optimistic that I referred to above.
I should be around most of the week, so no rush to respond if you're
engrossed in the holidays (which you should be!)
--- Eric
P.S. I was going to say something in my broadcast about the fact that you
were not at all slanderous, just libelous, but I wasn't able to come up
with a funny enough line.
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
>
> If it had been hostile there would have been support from SER. Which isn't
> to say there *won't* be conflict there soon - I just don't think we've seen
> it yet.
Oh...I dont think we have seen it yet either, that could all be a big
fiegn.
But the way thier messages came to me, just didnt feel right. I was
sure it was an arranged trade, but thier messages made me feel alittle
differently.
> Why would Eric keep the fleet? I thought that was odd.
Eric..is likely going to build another one....
Erik...has you all over him, so he definitely shouldnt get rid of a fleet.
Not that I wont be suggesting it to him. I think that he should get rid of
Piedmont, but I have a suspicion that he is going to suicide against me,
killing us both, and giving the Russian a solo.
Have a great Christmas.
Andy
Message from Italy to Italy
Its post-Fall 04', Turkey is still working hand in hand with the Russian
and getting almost nothing for it.
And we are waiting for the French retreat. Which should be to Picardy, not
off the board.
Russia is totally in the drivers seat. It will be very tough to keep
him from soloing at this point.
He gets 2 builds, Turkey builds 1 (but he is totally boxed in), England
Germany and I are even. Austria and France have a disband.
I expect Austria to disband the fleet, France is question mark.
Turkey should build an army in Smyrna and then move to Armenia to slow
down the powerhouse that Russia is becoming.
I expect a build in STP(NC) and WAR....so that he can get 2 on Vienna in
the fall and start pressing the north with the fleet.
----------------------------------------------
After some conversation with other players, both the Turk and the Russian
claim that Turkey's move wasnt planned, I dont beleive that for a second.
France could be suiciding against me, but he has a viable position, I have
no idea why he would. But he might. We have some history there.
I havent spoken to Tony, but my feeling is that he is in survival mode.
I need to talk to him.
Philippe and I will be working hand in hand for some time, unless I am
given an irrefutable reason to take his dots.
If I am Russia.....F STP(NC) is a must...A WAR
Hold off the south while taking all of the north.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Hi Ben, I have been willing to talk the last two years just
> to prevent that
> which you are now stating, the strong Russian presence in the
> north. As you
> can see I had to become a Russian puppet to remain alive.
I understand completely. You will see from the press archive it is my fault
you and I could not work together better.
> If only you would have moved north when I requested/suggested
> it. As it
> stands I could maybe pick up Denamrk with your support but at
> the same time
> I would lose BER. At the moment the Russian is offering to
> keep me on two.
I had planned on offering you DEN. In time I can push you further north. I
would like to see Erik put you in MUN, in fact, I recommended he offer it to
you early last season, and shortly afterward I asked Andy if *he* would
support you into MUN. I do not want to see you so weak.
> He is also now trying to get FG workingink against you in
> BEL/HOL. Something no doubt France will be interested in.
Urk. But what is in it for you, other than elimination.
> I't is as I predicted, get EF fighting and mop up behind
> them. ANy gain he
> makes in the north only makes his solo easier.
Perhaps. There is tension between RT, and if IT relations continue to
improve there will be a problem for Russia in the south.
> I was a little surprised about RUM and have asked what happened there.
> Looking at the moves Russia offered it to Turkey. I just want
> to see what
> Russia has to say. He still gets two builds so he no doubt
> offered Turkey RUM to keep him on his side.
Yes, but I was surprised (a) Eric kept the fleet, and (b) Jason captured
with an army. Interesting, interesting.
> The best offer I can see you offering me which would be
> temtpting is nth -
> ska, hol - nth, hel s hol - nth.
> But that would cost you HOL/BEL something I am sure you dont want.
>
> The only other offer is kie - ber, ruh - kie supported by hel/hol.
> I am afraid that kie - ber would bounce, so would therefor the rest.
> We will no doubt see a fleet in STP and an army in MOS.
> He can now secure the north. His only weak spot is DEN.
>
> The only option i see is you retreating from MAO and making
> up with Erik.
Yes, I was thinking about ways to do this. Encouragement from you would be
good for both of us.
> The three of us could take on Russia but maybe it is to late.
> Let me know your thoughts.
I do not think it is too late but I will have to get a clean disengagement
from France. Eric is a real charmer and I think the incorrect MAO - IRI and
my incorrect overreaction were unduly influenced.
I will offer you support to KIE; support to DEN. Why would you choose to be
eliminated, when you can play on? For some people, one game more or less
might be a major burden, but I suspect that is not the case for you. . .
;o)
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> First off: I love your press. By far the most enjoyable part of this game
> for me.
I'm going to cut you off if you build a northern fleet. I'll be boring but
belligerent - you'll see. No more twinkle toes from me!
> >If you build in the north you will be facing - my guess - an EIT. If you
> >do not threaten me with a northern build then you will be free to operate
> >without the early leader albatross around your neck.
>
> But the more meaty question is: where does it leave us? Is me not pushing
> forward good enough to mend fences? That still sounds along the lines of
> the unreasonably optimistic that I referred to above.
Tut tut. If you are worried about my fleets steaming northward, and you
nevertheless feel you would like to extend an olive branch to me, you have
but to build A STP. A powerful defensive unit, a friendly overture to
England.
> I should be around most of the week, so no rush to respond if you're
> engrossed in the holidays (which you should be!)
No, no, this is more important. The kids can wait.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
I'm not sure what your playing experience with Andy is, but he seems to
think you may commit suicide rather than play to succeed. Which *I* think
is odd, considering the game is still young and there is much that can
happen.
Merry Christmas, and I look forward to hearing from you.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> I never give up, but I have to wait for the right moment. Basically there
is
> nothing we can do if France doesnt join in.
> Try and sway him. I have only lied since day one to him ;-)
Yes. I waited until day six or seven, so I can understand why you think I
am better qualified. I am working on it.
Merry Christmas.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben,
You said: I am working on it.
Erik said: >>Except for Ben, who's clearly a slanderous,
treacherous toad, what with his accusations of Satanism and all.>>
LOL, look like you have a lot of talking to do. Try getting a 3 way press
going otherwise.
Tony
Message from Russia to Turkey
>I let Andy into Greece because I didn't want him to get overrun by
>France. I wasn't planning on him putting a fleet there, though, and with
>France down two builds, I'll probably take it back this year.
That I understand, though I still want to see you beat France to Tun. Once
you get there, he'll never take it from you no matter what happens.
>I'll make sure to cover Bul, no problem, while we head west against
>Austria. I believe there was talk of my getting Tri before, and I'd like
>to continue with that. With A Rum, I can support Bud while you help me
>into Tri, and my fleets maneuver to retake Gre.
Only one problem: All of that was based on you taking Rum with a fleet. I
was very clear that I was expecting Bla-Rum as a way for us to DMZ our
border. By moving in A Rum, you are putting a TON of pressure on my border.
To me, A Rum is a CLEAR attack against me, which is why I said your moves
confused me. A Rum is an attack, but A Ser S A Bud is clear cooperation.
I'm just not sure where we stand.
I would really like to see you move A Rum back to Bul before helping you
get Tri. You are welcome to keep Rum, but I want it to be with your fleet.
Here's what I propose: A Ser S A Bud, A Rum-Bul, F Bla-Rum. I'll move an
army into Gal, and then in Spring I can support myself in Bud (Gal S Bud),
while supporting you into Tri (Bud S Ser-Tri).
Jason, I have helped you get four centers (Gre, Ser, Bul and Rum) in the
Balkans while I have taken only one (Bud). I have offered you an overall
Balkan split of 5 centers to 2 (you are still to get Tri and while I'll get
Vie), and I have offered to help you into Italy if you need it. I
voluntarily gave you Rum -- a center that 9 out of 10 Russian players
consider to be a home center -- in order to keep our growth even. I think I
have been an amazingly good ally to you.
But the only reason I can see that you have to put an army in Rum is to
give you the option to attack me. So I have to ask, if you do attack me,
what does it get you? Who is going to be your ally? Is either Austria or
Italy going to give you a better deal than I'm giving you? Is Andy going to
be willing to take just Gre and then turn away to fight France? And even if
he does, you still don't get any of the Italian centers I've promised you.
Is Philippe going to let you have two of his home centers and all of Italy?
I doubt it. The board is trying to line up in an anti-RT alliance, if we
fight we'll both lose while that comes together.
I just don't see how that's worth it for taking Sev, which is as far as you
will get if you come after me. But if you are not planning on attacking me,
then I don't see why you'd put A Rum in place. I find it hard to believe
that you would not expect me to react to that move. I just don't see the
point of undercutting all of the trust we've built up over the last several
seasons.
I *really* want to continue to work together. I think it's the best thing
for both of us, and I've worked really hard to come up with ways for us to
cooperate that help us both. As usual when I'm trying to make what I think
is an important point, I'm probably going on too long. But I hope it's
clear that I'm making such a big deal because I really am committed to RT
cooperation (and not Rt or rT cooperation). I hope you will seriously
consider my points and agree to pull out A Rum so we can both push forward
comfortably.
Hope you had/are having a great holiday, and get back to me when you have a
chance.
--- Eric
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> You said: I am working on it.
>
> Erik said: >>Except for Ben, who's clearly a slanderous,
> treacherous toad, what with his accusations of Satanism and all.>>
>
> LOL, look like you have a lot of talking to do. Try getting a 3 way press
> going otherwise.
Ok, first of all, if I am correct that Eric is indeed a worshipper of the
Dark Lord, it is not slander.
Second of all, I'm working on it.
Third of all, I am not in a good position to press an attack against Erik,
and *you* know it, and for me to be overrun by Russia with his hatchet over
your neck is not exactly good for you.
So for now, let him know that I am sincerely interested in withdrawing to
deal with Russia, which is true.
I will start a group press soon, I suppose. . . I'd been thinking I'd like
to see the Russian build, first; hope springs eternal.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
One other thing I want you to consider:
In DEN and NWY, you already have pretty much all you will *ever* get from
me. If you build STP/nc, I will have to come at Scandinavia full steam to
head off an attack.
If on the other hand you build an army in STP (or somewhere else) you will
give me more flexibility in my own planning. If you build a northern
fleet, you frankly won't be giving me much choice, and you I don't think
will be the one reaping the benefits.
Share what's on your mind, if you think I'm wrong.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Concerning your removal, I have no strong feelings one way or the other,
but one thing I thought you may want to consider is that your southern army
is a *serious* deterrent to Andy and also is your most advanced unit, being
the only unit between the two of us anywhere near the "East." So, get rid
of it if you want, but I'd gently suggest keeping it.
Again, look at the map - I have no attack against you anymore and it's time
(for me) to settle down and play smart.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
You should know that now, after years of encouraging me to attack *you*,
Andy is asking me to push north to try to contain Russia. Now, as I told
you, that's what I wanted to do anyway, but when I hear it from *Andy*, what
it means to me is, Andy sees the danger Russia poses as a solo threat as a
*bigger* danger than he sees you against him.
Now, I agree with Andy, and I intend to follow his advice, unless you decide
to counterattack me, which would I think just be ugly, because with only a
small amount of encouragement from me Russia can claim all the German
centers, HOL, EDI, and who knows what else. I do not want to go out as a
suiciding Brit - it's not in my nature. *But* the good news is, if I get to
suicide for someone else's solo once, on this grand stage, I won't have to
do it again for awhile, because my reputation will precede me.
Anyway I do not think I will have to do it, as my sense from your last press
was that you would like to try to work with me again; perhaps you agree with
me that tactically I can't really attack you anymore, and I have every
reason to want to push north. Plus it will be a long time before you could
claim any of my dots anyway.
So! I am looking forward to hearing from you, and continuing to expect the
best for our resurrected EF.
Ben
Message from England to England
My guess is, Erik will remove F LYO. If he does really suicide against Andy, which I don't expect, it would be a good opportunity for me to try to coax Tony back into working with me, as the majority partner.
Again I have an idea of what I want but not a plan for getting there.
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Over the holiday break (Hanukkah/Winter Solstice/Christmas/Kwanzaa, in
chronological order) it's been very quiet in London. Any news items
crossing your desk?
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
It was a good year for you, diplomatically, as far as I can tell from
England. Good job, patching things up as well as possible with Italy - now
it is decision time.
Good luck, and I'll let you know if I hear anything that may be of
assistance to you.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> Andy -
> Over the holiday break (Hanukkah/Winter Solstice/Christmas/Kwanzaa, in
> chronological order) it's been very quiet in London. Any news items
> crossing your desk?
Nothing...
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Nothing...
Hm.
In that case,
What's green, has four legs, and if it jumps on you out of a tree, will kill
you?
Give up?
A pool table.
Ok, wake me when something happens.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
>
> Andy -
> > Nothing...
> Hm.
>
> In that case,
>
> What's green, has four legs, and if it jumps on you out of a tree, will kill
> you?
>
> Give up?
> A pool table.
>
> Ok, wake me when something happens.
>
10-4
Message from Master to all
Players,
I've extended the deadline per a player's request.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from Turkey to Italy
Well, I just got a very long, somewhat whint note from Russia, wondering
how, just how I could possibly do something as terrible as move A Rum
when he's done SO much for me in return. Gack.
Anyway, I'm looking at A Ank or A Con (probably Ank), but obviously I'll
need F Gre to not get greedy for me to take on Russia.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Well, not so good given that Russia is incensed over A Rum. Italy and I
are on good terms, though, and looking for me to head north, obviously.
Hopefully you can regain Den and Nwy, and expand somewhat in France as well.
Good luck over there.
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Sheesh, after your stab of England, I'm not sure why you're getting so
high and mighty on me.
You did offer me 5 Balklan centers, but three of those are Gre, Bul and
Ser! Those are mine unless you actually attack me; not exactly generous
on your part. For that matter, you're now at 9 centers, and with your
stab of England, clearly headed for more in the middle of Europe.
Right now, you're not offering me anything other than the chance to let
you win. You're sitting in Mun and Den pretty much assured that. If you
can offer me a real deal that does not simply involve keeping your
comfortable to your south while you roll west, I'm all for it.
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason,
as long as you dont try to kick me out, ie...make supported attacks on
Greece...Im not moving.
I will do what I can to the west.
Andy
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Okay, I lied. (I said I wouldn't try to negotiate prior to leaving Bud).
I do want to still want to leave Bud. I've also got requests from Jason to
support him into Tri and from Andy to support him into Vie. So without
getting into lots of negotiating on the idea, would you be interested in
Ser? This is the same support I offered you last season, with the same
promise that after you are there, I will move to leave Bud. Again, you
would get one or two builds out of the deal (depending on whether Andy
swooped in on Vie if you try to take Bud with Vie-Bud).
All the background on why I think you should remains unchanged, so I won't
go into that again.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
>Im still not quite sure why he [Erik] attacked me...Im sure you had a hand in
>it..:-)
Well, this is not the case, but I won't bother trying to convince you, as I
understand the suspicion.
>Pointing out how well I did, while getting 2 builds, and the ability to
>take back the dot you gave away to appease the peasants, anytime you want
>is a good strategy.
I guess, but I meant it sincerely. I'm not expecting to deflect you with
false praise.
>But you accomplished what you needed to....keeping BUD
>and setting up on Vienna. Unless you are still offering it to me.
I have no immediate designs on Vienna. If I tried to take it, you'd
probably support it anyway, so that's not what I'm looking at. I'm still
trying to figure out what I'm going to do with Bud. I'd like to come up
with something that gets you Vie without getting me in too much (more) hot
water, but that's not a promise at this point.
>You have him smoking from the Tzar's bong.
In deference to him, it's a hoooka. :)
Gotta run. I'm not trying to stall you, even though it's coming across that
way. I'll try to get back to you later today.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
Again, I am completely confused by your message. Your basic message seems
to be that I am somehow taking advantage of you by following all of the
plans that you have agreed to.
1) You complain that I attacked England.
Well, I did attack England. You and I never had any agreement that said I
wouldn't. In fact YOU said I should get my builds from the north. I am, and
now you are complaining. I don't see what the problem is.
2) I haven't helped you all that much in the south.
You don't really believe this do you?
o I gave you Rum voluntarily.
o I suggested to Austria that he support you to Ser, and helped ensure the
move happened (you would not have Ser without that).
o I have not threatened you with a fleet build the multiple times I could
have. (You haven't done this to me either, but it is still cooperation on
my part.)
o I have gotten nothing from the south beyond the normal Russian F1901
position (one Balkan center total).
o I helped ensure that Italy was weakened so he couldn't put up a battle
against you (that's something that comes with England being distracted: if
England builds fleets, France dies and Andy can focus on keeping you out of
the Med. I don't know if you are paying attention to this point).
3) I can still make gains in the north.
Right. That's our agreement. I make gains in the north, you make them in
the south. You seem to be saying that I should be offering you all of the
Balkan and Italian centers and trying to do badly in the north.
4) I have nine centers to your six.
You had seven centers but gave up one without giving me any warning you
were going to. I have nine because I voluntarily gave you one to make up
for my lead. Russia starts with an extra center, so this means that overall
I've gained exactly one more center than you have to date. Turkey also has
a more secure position than Russia, and needs fewer centers to do well in
the early- to mid-game, so until you are setting up stalemate lines it's
traditional for Russia to have a few more units, due to the need to operate
on two fronts.
Are you really saying that you want to throw away our whole alliance
because I'm one center ahead of you? That's what it sounds like to me. That
seems silly, because the ONLY way you could be eliminated is if you and I
fight, but you seem to be saying we should.
5) I have no right to be upset with your press, because I attacked England.
I will try to make it clear again: I have been completely honest with you
in all of my press, and you are acting as if taking Rum with an army is a
setup for cooperating with me. As I've tried to explain above, I think it's
a bad move for you to attack me, but what really bothers me is you
pretending that you took Rum with an army to help me. If you want to attack
me and screw up both of our positions, that's one thing, but at least be
straight with me about it.
6) I'm not offering you anything useful.
I am still offering Tri and support into Italy while I focus north. That's
six centers total for you. If you want to fight, then you and I can both
spend a lot of time fighting over Bud/Rum/Sev. You'll have to pull units
back and let Italy come after you, I'll have to do the same. Neither of us
will grow and England and Italy will take out France and set up defenses we
can't break. That would be really bad for both of us, but that seems to be
the "better" option you are suggesting we follow.
You say that I'm not offering you a "real deal" despite everything noted
above, the fact that I've done everything we've agreed to and that I have
consistently asked if there is anything else we need to discuss and you
have never raised any of these concerns before. I think you are just trying
to bully me into a deal that gets me to help you (into Tri) while you set
up to attack me. I am totally serious when I say that I cannot imagine what
more I could do for you short of intentionally sabotaging my northern
position. So if you see some "real deal" that I should be offering that
isn't stupid for me to agree to and goes beyond what I've already offered,
tell me what it is.
You are the one that set up to attack me, and you are the one that will
either continue the attack or back off. I think it would be a shame to blow
both of our positions after we've worked so hard to build them up, but it's
clearly your call.
--- Eric
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Well, not so good given that Russia is incensed over A Rum.
> Italy and I
> are on good terms, though, and looking for me to head north,
> obviously.
*I'd* sure appreciate it. If you don't mind me asking, why'd you support
him in BUD?
> Hopefully you can regain Den and Nwy, and expand somewhat in
> France as well.
Thanks. I hope you solo. ;-)
> Good luck over there.
And to you, my friend.
Happy New Year.
Ben
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
So. Any recommendations here? I thought I could buy English time by
supporting Kiel so I could make some gains against Andy, but clearly I
misjudged him. He claims to have been badly manipulated by you, so kudos
to you for your success in that arena.
I'm kind of torn right now -- I need to make gains down south, but all
external forces are making me be defensive and head back north. Since you
seem willing to take on England rather directly now, perhaps it's okay to
do that. Frankly, I was feeling a little isolated before.
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
God all your pleading, consoling messages, and I am certainly receptive to
them. I just got back from vacation in NH where I had more limited access
than I thought, so I'll re-read them and get back to you before I make my
build choices.
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> God all your pleading, consoling messages, and I am certainly receptive to
> them.
Good! I tried everything I could think of, with the exception of crass
bribery, which I am also prepared to do, in the form of Belgium. Which I
will gladly offer, as I think I implied (maybe said) already - I just
wanted to be clear about it.
> I just got back from vacation in NH where I had more limited access
> than I thought, so I'll re-read them and get back to you before I make my
> build choices.
In New Hampshire you were lucky to have indoor plumbing.
I am looking forward to your response, but as you can see, we have plenty
of time.
Welcome back.
Ben
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
I'm ages behind in press in this game. Very pleased with the extension.
The short note I'll send now is that Germany seems to be focused on revenge
against England (he's angry that England allowed me the freedom to attack
his (Germany's) home centers). I've broached the idea of having him help
you take Bel in exchange for you helping (or letting) him take Hol in the
Fall, and he seems willing. Now, working with Tony is dicey at best, but
the last two seasons he's actually gone through with moves that he promised
to me, so I think he'd be willing to do this. If you are interested, I
think that's the best way to go forward.
I have to say I was majorly disappointed to see Jason give Gre to Andy. It
was a COMPLETE surprise to me. I've been trying to convince him it was a
bad idea, but the damage is done for you for the short term. I hoped to see
England go down one, Andy go down one, and we could press for a three way
(FTR) or we could try to squeeze out Jason for a two way. Unfortunately,
Jason was worried about making sure that Andy could slow you down rather
than trying to set up a good position for himself.
If you like the Bel/Hol idea, it gets you the ability to pick up a build in
the north (which, admittedly might be lost if F MAO takes Por, Spa or Bre)
while still leaving you the ability to push at Andy, or at least trying to
hold a line. Jason tells me he is considering taking back Gre. If he does
that, then Andy will be less of a threat.
The overall difficulty is who to defend against. If Jason takes Gre, then
you might be able to focus north. But given that Jason misled me last
season, I don't know that you want to count on my info about him. I will
also look and see if I can't give some advice about disbands. But I haven't
looked at the map much since the moves, and I just got in from 4 hours of
driving in bad weather, so I need to get off the computer and let the blood
back into my rear.
More later,
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
Happy New Year.
> >Im still not quite sure why he [Erik] attacked me...Im sure you had a hand in
> >it..:-)
>
> Well, this is not the case, but I won't bother trying to convince you, as I
> understand the suspicion.
>
thats fair.
> >Pointing out how well I did, while getting 2 builds, and the ability to
> >take back the dot you gave away to appease the peasants, anytime you want
> >is a good strategy.
>
> I guess, but I meant it sincerely. I'm not expecting to deflect you with
> false praise.
I know. I just wanted to point out that it is a good strategy.
Didnt mean to sound defensive there.
> >But you accomplished what you needed to....keeping BUD
> >and setting up on Vienna. Unless you are still offering it to me.
>
> I have no immediate designs on Vienna. If I tried to take it, you'd
> probably support it anyway, so that's not what I'm looking at. I'm still
> trying to figure out what I'm going to do with Bud. I'd like to come up
> with something that gets you Vie without getting me in too much (more) hot
> water, but that's not a promise at this point.
No problem.
> >You have him smoking from the Tzar's bong.
>
> In deference to him, it's a hoooka. :)
Understandibly....:-)
> Gotta run. I'm not trying to stall you, even though it's coming across that
> way. I'll try to get back to you later today.
Not a problem.
Message from Observer to Observer
Still catching up (or is it falling further behind?)
Rewind to S1904M.
> I will just order BER hold and RUH - MUN.
I wonder why Tony did not think of BER S RUH - MUN. It'll probably be cut, but what does it cost?
Regards
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: <c2f@yahoogroups.com>
To: <c2f@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 8:31 PM
Subject: [c2f] Digest Number 108
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:18:39 +0000 (UTC)
> From: USTX Diplomacy Judge <ustx@spencersoft.com>
> Subject: USTX:c2 - S1904M Press from G to E
>
> USTX Diplomacy Judge
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Please report judge problems to judgekeeper@spencersoft.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> AOL (and their Compuserve subsidiary) are currently rejecting
> all mail from USTX. I suggest that GMs of games with AOL or CS
> players take this into account and extend deadlines as
> necessary. Players in games with GMs on AOL or CS should
> pass this information on to them by sending mail directly to
> them.
>
> We are working to resolve this problem. Apparently, AOL made
> some change that caused this, so I can give no estimate of
> how long it will take.
>
> - Greg, USTX Judgekeeper
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Germany to England in 'c2':
>
> Hi Ben,
>
> Well I made quite a booby with my disbands, I was sure I disbanded RUH
> instead of MUN.
> Darn my fat fingers and lack of brain/eye/hand coordination.
>
> Hopefully the powers that be will be confused and seek explanation in some
> genius tactical dibandonment order.
>
> It will indeed be interesting to see how you came to make the choice you
> did. I see no excape for you. I think you blew the second chance when you
> built what you did. Going by Frances build he had some hope. Wait and see
> when the first Russian build in STP pops its head up. He made it by the skin
> of his teeth when you didnt opt to take Norway instead. As you can see from
> my moves (once again) I was genuine.
>
> Unless BUR supports me back to MUN and you support BER then my two sc's will
> fall to Russia.
>
> I am guessing that France will be retreating IRI. If I were you I would
> still opt fro the central allience and push NTH - NWG and LON - NTH. This
> nets you Norway in the fall. It will be your last chance.
>
> I wont diplome with you and france this move. I think I have said enough
> regarding the situation on the board. I am wondering where you went wrong
> with France that he moved to IRI?
> Nothing fits Russia's game plan better than to have you and France fight.
> Even now you must realise just looking at the board how lucky Russia is now.
> Your fleets all seem to be aiming west. He will have tight cheeks this
> coming year, move now move swiftly. Your build in LVP may have left him with
> his guard down a little, but thereagain there is nothing he can do if you
> move north.
>
> I will just order BER hold and RUH - MUN. I will soon know what happens. My
> fortune cookie prediction for this year is the fall of Greece and BUD and
> depending on EF actions the fall of BER & MUN. Builds to be made in STP and
> MOS.
>
> The coming years I see RT sweeping through Germany and Italy and Austria.
>
> Good luck whatever you chose to do.
>
> Tony
Message from Turkey to England
Sorry for the delayed reply, but now that New Years has passed us by,
it's back to Dip!
The Bud support was basically to deflect his criticism over A Rum. I was
hoping he would see me as still helping him, although it didn't work out
that way. As I said, he's fairly irritated with me. :-)
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Sorry for my delayed response over the holidays.
Eric, I appreciate the work that we've done together, and I'm glad that
we have both enhanced our positions because of it. However, I really
don't understand your surprise over my concern with your position. You
have a lot of room to run in the north, and if I support you
wholeheartedly, I'll just be handing you the game. I presume that's the
whole thrust of your game, to win.
Yes, you have abided by every agreement that we've made, and I've done
my best to help you, even supporting A Bud when that wasn't in my best
interests, as a show of support.
You seem fixated on A Rum, however, and while I understand why you might
be concerned, you seem to see it as your ultimate destroyer. Given
such an overreaction, it makes me wonder if we can work together in the
long term.
jason
Message from Russia to Turkey
Before going into a specific response, let me say that I appreciate the tone
of this message from you. I hope it's been clear that while I've gotten
pedantic and detailed, the point is to try to come to agreement and
coopearation between us, not to express anger or get you defensive.
> Sorry for my delayed response over the holidays.
Not a problem. I have not been online for several days myself. Oddly relaxing
to get away from the game for a while. :) Happy new year, by the way.
> Eric, I appreciate the work that we've done together, and I'm glad that
> we have both enhanced our positions because of it. However, I really
> don't understand your surprise over my concern with your position.
My surprise is more along the lines that you haven't talked to be about it.
Pretty much every turn I ask you "is there anything else we need to discuss?"
and you haven't said anything. I thought that any serious concerns would be
discussed rather than show up in the form of a broken agreement.
> You have a lot of room to run in the north, and if I support you
> wholeheartedly, I'll just be handing you the game.
How do you see this happening? This is a serious question. I'm going to
outline how I see the north:
I can get into Germany, but I have one fleet -- two if I build F StP, against
five English fleets. Even if France and Germany combine against England
(unlikely), he'll have three to four fleets left. So I'm not going to be
making progress against him. I'll only make progress on land past Germany if
France falls. That is not likely to happen if you are attacking Italy. So
again, us cooperating seemed to be a long term good thing for both of us to
me.
> I presume that's the whole thrust of your game, to win.
Anything I answer to this is suspect, because if I say "yes" then you'll say
"see, you are manipulating me" and if I say "no" then you won't believe me.
The answer is somewhere in between. The thrust of my game is to get a decent
position, try to keep it from falling apart, and see what opportunities arise
from that position to get it better. Very rarely that actually leads to a
win, which as with most players is the preferred result, but I am perfectly
happy with a draw.
> Yes, you have abided by every agreement that we've made, and I've done
> my best to help you, even supporting A Bud when that wasn't in my best
> interests, as a show of support.
As noted below, this was not lost on me.
> You seem fixated on A Rum, however, and while I understand why you might
> be concerned, you seem to see it as your ultimate destroyer. Given
> such an overreaction, it makes me wonder if we can work together in the
> long term.
Well, I'm glad you will at least acknowledge that I'm not completely insane
to be concerned. :)
If us being able to work together "in the long term" means that you that you
can break our agreements if you are worried about me, or that you need a
position that allows you to attack me whenever you decide to, then frankly,
no, we probably can't work together. Moving A Rum was a stab. And it isn't
just A Rum that's the problem, but A Rum combined with F Bla.
I have no problem with you being worried about me; I'm worried about you too.
I just expect that if you want to cooperate that you'll negotiate something
that addresses your concerns rather than breaking agreements to suit your
needs. You broke our agreement in a way that is very threatening to my
position because you are worried about me. When I express concerns about what
you might do after breaking our agreement, you accuse me of overreacting. And
you seem to expect me to continue to follow the agreement without worrying
about what you might do. That's quite a double standard.
I recognize that you supported me in Bud when it didn't directly help you.
That is why I haven't written off RT cooperation. I really want to see RT
continue, because without it, either of our positions could crumble. That's
why I gave you Rum, something that doesn't directly help me. And it's also
why I keep writing these long, possibly annoying, messages. But yeah, A Rum/F
Bla really *is* a big problem for me. We need to to work out something out
that we can both be happy with to keep RT going.
I've given you my offer (put a fleet in Rum, move the Army to Bul), and
you've said no. So what's your alternative? I've asked this a couple of times
and haven't seen an answer yet.
--- Eric
Message from Observer to Observer
Turkey and Russia are having some nice discussions about Rumania.
Russia's main point is that A Rum/F Bla can be threatened as a STAB
because it poses a significant danger to his borders. I think that's
nonsense. Sev can be defended with extreme ease (even if Turkey puts
an additional unit in Arm) and without A Rum Turkey could also make
Russia lose Bud if he wanted to. This Turkish set of moves was in
fact superior when it comes to DMZing the Black. The Russian F Rum
could be destroyed, Russia rebuilds A Sev to keep the centre safe
and Turkey can easily move his F into the Med. But for some reason,
Russia doesn't destroy his fleet. I may have missed one or two
pressed, but I reaally can't understand why this hasn't been agreed
on, as it is a very safe and efficient way to easen paranoia between
R/T and they had a wonderful opportunity. The plan Russia suggested
is non-acceptable to me from a Turkish PoV because putting the fleet
in Rum would overburden it - it must guard both Rum and BLA, one of
which it can't do. In a possible conflict Russia would always have
the advantage in such a situation. The alternative, putting the army
in Rum and the fleet in Bul(ec) is marginally better but it foregoes
all influence in Gre and Ser. So, if Russia doesn't want to destruct
his own fleet I think he should live with the consequences, namely F
Bla, A Rum. And calling Turkey's current move a stab wouldn't do
much good for my goodwill vis a vis Russia if I were Jason, it's a
horrible exaggeration. Can't have the best of everything Eric =/ I
actually think it's a bad move diplomatically because instead of the
desired effect (the removal of A Rum) it was more likely to incite
R/T conflict (and at the moment, it looks like that was a good
prediction). For a very big part, Russia's success is linked to his
ability to string Turkey along. If E/F get together (and to a lesser
extent if they don't) a war with Turkey would close to ruin Russia's
position. The disadvantages for Turkey, however, aren't nearly as
big. That given, it would be unwise for Eric to whine about a small
thing like this. I'm curious if Eric will be playing another tune
once he sees A Ank.
I liked Turkey's decision to leave Greece to Italy. He is still in
position to take the centre any time he wants to, and the build it
would have gained him would be useless at the stage, but he has made
a big step in restoring I/T relations. By doing this, he is keeping
his options open. A possible war against Italy hasn't been delayed
much but now his prospects of waging war against Russia have been
improved, and with it his bargaining position with Russia (though
Russia isn't acknowledging it ATM). I can understand why Russia is
unhappy about it =.=
Happy New Year all,
Thomas
Message from Austria to Austria
Hi all,
I'm back from the holydays full of energy, but my position in this game
is painfull to look at. I'm down to two units with no diplomatic relation
that I can really count on.
As long as Andy believe himself under the threat of elimination, he will
work with me; but he will renew his attacks against me the minute he
think himself off the hook.
Tony could be of assistance, but he has problems of his own. Problems
I didn't do anything to help with because of his good relation with
Russia. Now that it isn't the case anymore, I'm not in position to help.
I thought I would be able to count on Ben in the north, but he made
the mistake of listening to the siren's call and he's paying the price for it.
In the end, the strong relationship I thought existed between us simply
isn't there.
As for Erik, my ambivalence toward Andy and my conflict with Eric
as cooled our relationship so much that we barely exchange press. I
welcome his attack on Andy, but I doubt I can trust him.
This leave Eric & Jason. Having absolutely no clue how to deal with
Jason, I didn't even really try to convince him last fall. Every time I
write a press to him I get the impression I'm wasting my time. At least
with Andy, I know that even though he's picked me as his target, I
got a small chance of stopping the knife for a little while. With Jason,
nothing.
As for Eric, he's a very good diplomat that his presently examining
how best to solo. I had hope that my effort toward an RT would
put me in position to influence it afterward, but it's really not the
case. By trying to play the middle groung with him, all I did was
reinforce the RT alliance as he told Jason that I had warn him about
the attack on Rum.
Out of options, I feel like giving up and let myself be Eric's puppet;
but I will wait to see how things turn out next spring just in case
Message from Russia to Austria
Hey Philippe,
Are you around? It's fine if you don't want to negotiate, but I'd like to
know if you are just not getting any messages from me (I've sent only two or
so) or if you are ignoring them. Thanks.
Also, in addition to the offers to help in Ser etc, I'm also open to just
walking out of Bud. My guess is that me walking out of Bud would be dangerous
for you, but if you are focused on seeing it go back to you despite the cost,
it might be worth your while.
Let me know what's going on over there.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Not like I'm Mr. Communication this season, but I'm interested in your
response to my last message. What did you think of the cooperate-with-Tony
suggestion I sent before? Even if you disbanded A Ruh I think it would work,
right?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
Sorry for your loss. Looked like a good game though. Unfortunately, poor TiVo
mojo caused me to miss the second half of the game. (The first time in years
of owning a TiVo I had a UI problem cause a glitch. Very sad.)
I was heartened though to see Denver fall so terribly to whoever they played
(that's true as a general rule for me). Maybe Indy will wipe out KC too,
though that's not nearly as important as seeing Denver crushed.
As to c2, I've been almost completely out of the loop this entire break. I've
sent and received a couple of messages, but not much thought or effort has
been here, especially since my last message to you. I'm leaning towards A StP
as a build, but I haven't actually made up my mind yet.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
I thought I sent you a check in note a few days ago but I'm not sure. Story
is that I'm still very interested in seeing FRG cooperation, but I haven't
heard much from Erik. Just one note. I sugggested trying to take Bel with
your support, but he's been pretty silent since then.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
Well, I think I promised you a message that never got delivered. That was
mostly my fault (I've been very detached from the game over the break) and
partly difficulties in communicating with other players, which makes deciding
what I might or might not do in Vie harder.
Right now I'm still not planning to molest Vie in the Spring one way or
another. I won't be surprised if Philippe moves to evict me again, so Tyl-Vie
could either help me by cutting support (something I doubt you want to do) or
help you by picking you up a center against someone that may be attacking me
and I'd therefore be motivated to help you against (something you may or may
not want to do).
I know I'm not giving you much, but I'd rather be straightforward about
things. I expect to be wanting to help you more directly in the near future,
so don't want to set false expectations in the present.
Happy new year, etc.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> Sorry for your loss. Looked like a good game though.
Thank you for your sympathy. We were outplayed - Tennessee presented the
biggest matchup problems of all the teams in the playoffs. They were good
enough to stop Jamal with 9 in the box - where other teams tried & failed -
and then just went 1 on 1 with our outside receivers. Really, I think they
could have put 10 in the box and left one cornerback to cover our lousy wide
receivers. Anyway we are now set up nicely for next year, when hopefully
everyone who thought Anthony Wright could start successfully at qb will have
shut up, and we will get going with Kyle Boller, our qb of the future. We
have cap room & hopefully will finally find a legitimate #1 wide receiver.
I hope Oakland does well with the cap, and finds a good head coach. Denny
Green, is my guess for Oakland, which would be a good fit.
Apologies to the members of the gallery who are sick of the (American)
football talk - you did have the holidays without it.
> I was heartened though to see Denver fall so terribly to
> whoever they played
> (that's true as a general rule for me). Maybe Indy will wipe
> out KC too,
> though that's not nearly as important as seeing Denver crushed.
I'd like to see Tennessee go on & win out.
> As to c2, I've been almost completely out of the loop this
> entire break. I've
> sent and received a couple of messages, but not much thought
> or effort has
> been here, especially since my last message to you. I'm
> leaning towards A StP
> as a build, but I haven't actually made up my mind yet.
A STP is fine with me & is consistent with a desire to protect yourself in
the North without the declaration of war you get with a northern fleet
build. I would completely understand A STP & I will take it as a peaceful
overture.
As my journal notes will show you after the game is finished - my good will
toward you has steered my hand a couple of times already. No need to push
me unnecessarily. . .
Ben
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
A shorter message just to deal with the immediate pragmatics. From a
pragmatic point of view, how do you want to move forward?
Given that you have A Rum, an army build would concerning for me, especially
if it were not in Con. A fleet build in Smy would be my ideal, obviously.
With A Bul (assuming you moved Rum-Bul as I'm asking), you could then support
yourself to Gre, take Tri with my support and move a fleet to Aeg to get a
have a 3 vs. 2 attack on the Ion, which would get you moving into Tun and
Nap.
If you don't build a fleet, then you probably won't be able to make headway
against Andy on your own, even though you might be able to retake Gre in the
short term. And if that's the case, I'd like to know what kind of support you
would expect from me, and what assistance you would provide to me. Again, so
far the only thing you've offered is that I should support you to Tri in
Spring while you hold Rum and Bla and prepare to take Gre. Is that my only
option? F Rum isn't negotiable? Vacating Bla isn't even an option?
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Russia
Hi Eric, I havent heared from Erik either (probably due to the holidays).
I am also unable to call up floc.net it seems to be down. Speak to you soon.
Tony
Message from Russia to Russia
Well, this has been a pretty pathetic round of negotiating on my part.
Clearly I misread Jason to some extent, but it was a calculated gamble to
make an ally of a player who was clearly unreasonable (I want all of the
Balkans, and I want them unconditionally) but I thought that given that I was
meeting those demands that he wouldn't try to take further advantage of them
or that I could negotiate out of the situation if he did.
I'll be curious to see whether observers think I'm overreacting to his move.
There's a whole separate question of whether I should have seen it coming,
but I'm comfortable with my choice in guessing it wouldn't -- I'm more
interested in whether people think I should have "let it slide" and
negotiated with the assumption of Rum S Bud, Bud S Ser-Tri. This strikes me
as similar to the situation in C1 between Eric (Russia) and Andy (Turkey)
with Eric trying to solo in the north by giving Andy a lot of (and
ultimately, too much, given how it played out) room to manever. In any case,
if I *can* get Philippe to agree to anything then I'll probably go with it
against Jason now (and I guess in that sense, Jason is correct to be worried
about me).
I could survive for a while with A Rum if there isn't A Ser to back it up,
but I really don't like the position or the precedent it sets up that I'll
let him get away with it. I can almost believe that he'd be willing to sit
there and not go any further, but the key to me is that I want to be in a
safe position relative to him when he picks up Gre and Tri (if I help him
there).
Of course, with Philippe, I'm taking the same tone that Jason is taking with
me. "I know I just attacked you, but work with me anyway". Clearly a double
standard there, but I thought it might work with his concern about Andy and
Jason. I also expected that if Jason went along with our agreement, I
wouldn't really need Philippe's support, so I was more willing to take the
risk. That didn't work too well.
In the north, the silence of the Eri(ck)s reigns supreme. Again, being so
silent it's hard to complain about others, but I'd like to hear something
from my name-wise counterpart. I was being truthful with Ben when I said that
I'm leaning towards A StP. If Erik isn't going to keep up the pressure on
Ben, then I might have to cut my losses and just hope I can drive Tony
forward fast enough to make gains from the situation.
So all in all, my strategy looks to be imploding. I misread Erik and Jason,
which means that the attacks on Ben and Philippe are both extra bad for me,
because they both sabotaged what were very good working relationships. By
arguing as much as I have with Jason, I've definitely risked creating an IT
that will make it hard to get Andy's help before my position is significantly
degraded. He actually ticked me off with his casual rebuff of all of the
concessions I've made to him, and I let my frustration show through in press,
even though I knew it was unlikely to be successful with him.
And the frustrating thing is that it's all my fault. As much as I'd like to
complain about Erik for being too silent (he is) or Jason for being
unreasonable (he is), I knew that those were the personalities they had, and
I explicitly risked the consequenses in both cases. As someone (Jim-Bob) said
in another commentary game, "in Diplomacy you always make your bed and you
always have to sleep in it" or somesuch.
Happy new year to all y'all.
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
Ok, now that floc is back up, to your two missives:
First, I appreciate your understanding as well. And no, the question
about "do you play to win" wasn't a trick question, just rhetorical.
I see your point about EF holding on in the west. I'll go ahead and
build A Con to move into the Balkans, looking to build F Smy next turn.
I'll also plan to move A Rum out of harms way, as it were. Italy should
still be tied up with France and not going anywhere, so that will give
me ample opportunity.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Can you by any chance cooperate with France to hold Russia where he is,
and maybe push back a little?
Here's where I am: if I attack Russia, he can hold Sev with Ukr and Mos,
while Austria gets Bud, leaving me with maybe Gre and very little room
to maneuver. If I keep working with Russia, though, I can get Tri and
Gre for free, and move into the Med in force.
I know you want me to move north, but unfortunately it doesn't get me
anywhere. Will Russia overrun you if that's the case?
jason
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Can you by any chance cooperate with France to hold Russia
> where he is, and maybe push back a little?
I would like to but I don't know if France will let me.
> Here's where I am: if I attack Russia, he can hold Sev with
> Ukr and Mos,
> while Austria gets Bud, leaving me with maybe Gre and very little room
> to maneuver. If I keep working with Russia, though, I can get Tri and
> Gre for free, and move into the Med in force.
Ok, I read this, and I hear through what you've been writing that Eric's
been working you over pretty well. Remember when you are dealing with Eric,
that he is silver tongued. I'm not saying, jam your fingers in your ears
and don't read his press, I'm just saying, think *very* *hard* about what
he's writing you.
For instance, if you attack Russia, and as you say UKR and MOS are forced to
defend SEV, what will happen elsewhere on the board? I can tell you - he
will not be able to hold Scandinavia, because he will be trying to defend
himself from you, so we will be able to squeeze him. Eventually MOS will
fall *to you* because he will be pressured from the north. Meanwhile you
will be the dominant force in the Balkans and will get to choose between A
and I for an ally against the other, while you grow and prepare to clean
them both out. With weakened AIR there will *never* come a time when you
can be eliminated and you will have a final say in the endgame. If I and F
stay at each others' throats, as it looks like they may, so much the better;
it keeps the Italian fleets far away.
Turkey does not win by growing quickly. Turkey wins by growing slowly, and
the southern Russian centers are an important piece of that yellow puzzle.
Long term, an RT on this map plays out as I see it this way: Russia grows
against me and against Germany. With a safe southern flank, he can attack
me with France - who will turn on me in a heartbeat if he thinks I am
vulnerable to Russia; if you need proof of this, simply look back to his MAO
- IRI, which was an attempt by him to rip off some of my centers while I was
attacked by Eric, but Eric's attack didn't come, so Erik pulled back [deep
breath - run-on sentence]. Meanwhile with a large Russia you will never be
safe - he will always have an opportunity to jam the knife in.
When you read the board, read the German dots as Russian. Because for now,
they are. Tony exists as Eric's pawn and his dots are *on loan* from Eric.
In the next couple of seasons, there are only one or two dots available
whichever way you go. Try to think about how you see things playing out
*beyond* that, into the endgame. I am glad to be your sounding board, and I
will try hard to take off my English-colored glasses, if you would like to
just bounce things off me.
Good luck, my friend.
Ben
Message from Austria to Russia
> Are you around? It's fine if you don't want to negotiate, but I'd like to
> know if you are just not getting any messages from me (I've sent only two or
> so) or if you are ignoring them. Thanks.
>
> Also, in addition to the offers to help in Ser etc, I'm also open to just
> walking out of Bud. My guess is that me walking out of Bud would be dangerous
> for you, but if you are focused on seeing it go back to you despite the cost,
> it might be worth your while.
>
> Let me know what's going on over there.
Nothing special. I came back some time ago and didn't bother
replying to you, sorry. Given how things turned out last fall, I
thought I might as well wait for the adjustment before renewing
negociation with everyone.
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
I can understand your silence, both in general and with me.
I would like to get a read on whether or not you would be interested in
cooperation, as it may affect my builds slightly. Again, that could be me
helping you into Ser, or it could be me walking out of Bud. I would generally
imagine that you'd be happy to see me walk out of Bud, but it seems that it
would also depend on what you are expecting from Andy and/or Jason.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> I would like to get a read on whether or not you would be interested in
> cooperation, as it may affect my builds slightly. Again, that could be me
> helping you into Ser, or it could be me walking out of Bud. I would generally
> imagine that you'd be happy to see me walk out of Bud, but it seems that it
> would also depend on what you are expecting from Andy and/or Jason.
To tell you the truth, I don't feel like I can trust any of my neighbours;
but while you don't always have my interest at heart, I must recognize
that you're the easiest to work with.
Message from Russia to Austria
> To tell you the truth, I don't feel like I can trust any of my
> neighbours;
I can certainly understand that point of view. I know neither Jason nor I
helped that sentiment with our last few moves either.
> but while you don't always have my interest at heart,
As you'll see in my comments to the observers, I think it (not keeping your
best interests at heart) was probably a bad move on my part. Not that it's
any consolation whatsoever for you that I think that.
> I must recognize that you're the easiest to work with
Ugh. While that might be good for me, I'm sorry to hear that for your sake.
In any case, whether you choose to work with me or not, happy new year (don't
remember if I said that in my last message or not).
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to England
As you say, Eric talks a good game. :-)
Thanks for the reply. I mentioned that to you knowing that you probably
saw the board differently.
While I agree that me going after Russia now lets you guys make
progress, my main fear is in being boxed in the corner. No, I won't get
eliminated, but if France or Italy can blockade me in the Med, I'm not
going anywhere either, even if I do get Mos.
I already see Ber and Kie as Russian, no question there. With Vie, he'll
have 12 centers. I'll get Tri and Gre, giving me 8, plus whatever I can
get in Italy. The main question I see is, can I get stuff in Italy
faster than Russia can move into France and Britain. He is short on
fleets, which will give you an advantage, and France is disbanding a
unit now.
If I attack him now, I run a real risk of bogging down in the corner,
and possibly facing AI together, depending on how France does. If I work
with him some more, I can get to Tun and be in a position to go in any
direction.
Right now, I'm building A Con to preverse my flexibility. We'll see how
to builds go.
jason
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
Let me take this alittle out of order:
> Right now, I'm building A Con to preverse my flexibility. We'll see how
> to builds go.
This makes perfect sense to me. No arguments.
> As you say, Eric talks a good game. :-)
Just keep your antennae up - we are on the same page on this.
> Thanks for the reply. I mentioned that to you knowing that you probably
> saw the board differently.
Yeah, I read somewhere that your most distant neighbors are the ones most
likely telling the truth.
> While I agree that me going after Russia now lets you guys make
> progress, my main fear is in being boxed in the corner. No, I won't get
> eliminated, but if France or Italy can blockade me in the Med, I'm not
> going anywhere either, even if I do get Mos.
A couple of things I want to expand on in here: Eric's apparently told you
you can not make progress against him. What I'm telling you is, that's
not correct. He will collapse if you press him from the south. Tony, no
fool, will try to reassert himself against Eric, reclaiming his own
centers, and I will stake my claim in the north. You will get SEV, and
MOS, to boot, in time, but the real gains will be in the Balkan/Austrian
centers, where you will be the big dog. Your A CON sets this up nicely.
> I already see Ber and Kie as Russian, no question there. With Vie, he'll
> have 12 centers. I'll get Tri and Gre, giving me 8, plus whatever I can
> get in Italy. The main question I see is, can I get stuff in Italy
> faster than Russia can move into France and Britain. He is short on
> fleets, which will give you an advantage, and France is disbanding a
> unit now.
I agree. But if I end up locked up against Russia, as the only player
attacking him, as sure as I'm sitting here Erik will sneak up behind me and
I will collapse, with a Russian advance getting most of the benefit. Keep
in mind - Erik's already tried that once.
Concerning Andy, Erik's removal will likely be a southern fleet. Andy will
be free to follow whichever course he pleases - what do you think the best
method is to get him to fight France? What can /you/ do to get him to turn
against France?
> If I attack him now, I run a real risk of bogging down in the corner,
> and possibly facing AI together, depending on how France does. If I work
> with him some more, I can get to Tun and be in a position to go in any
> direction.
You are a long long way from TUN. Erik and Andy both know how important it
is to keep you out - you are just as close to MOS as you are to TUN. And
as long as Russia is strong, there is a significant danger of you being
eliminated. Once Russia is weak, Turkey is here to stay.
Anyway I think you are making the exact right decision for your build, and
for the exact right reason.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from France to Russia
Erik,
Not like I'm Mr. Communication this season, but I'm interested in your
response to my last message. What did you think of the
cooperate-with-Tony
suggestion I sent before? Even if you disbanded A Ruh I think it would
work,
right?
--- Eric
11th hour, but what does it matter at this point, eh? And I can't
disband Ruhr, so that's a non-issue.
I think the idea of working with Tony has a lot of merit, and I will
certainly be more active in my communication with him this coming phase.
For now, the disband is coming down to a coin toss ...
Talk to you tomorrow,
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
Regardless of what I end up disbanding, you should be aware than I am
indeed still willing to work with you. You will excuse caution on my
part, but I think history demands that I not turn a blind eye to you for
a little while without a very good cause.
We can talk more when discussions for the next phase begin.
Erik
Message from France to Italy
I think you'll find my answer to your questions in my actions this
phase.
Erik
Message from Italy to France
> I think you'll find my answer to your questions in my actions this
> phase.
I guess thats fair.
Hopefully you arent attacking me.
Andy
Austria: REMOVE Fleet Albania
France: REMOVE Army Piedmont
Russia: BUILD Army St Petersburg
Russia: BUILD Army Warsaw
Turkey: BUILD Army Constantinople
Centers
Austria: 2
England: 5
France: 5
Germany: 2
Italy: 5
Russia: 9
Turkey: 6
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