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Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Ah! It is as I feared from the beginning. I am out of my depth. So,
let's talk to the tails wagging the dogs, and hear what they have to say. .
.
Ben
Message from England to all
Ok, I am setting draw.
If I were Eric, I would not set draw. If I were Andy or Erik, I would.
I am not playing with this fire any more. I have survived longer than I'd
hoped though I have carelessly imperiled the West, and as far as I am
concerned, a 4way is as good as it will get, for me.
Ben
Message from England to all
FWIW:
Movement orders for Fall of 1912. (c2.049)
England: Fleet Baltic Sea, No Order Processed.
England: Fleet Denmark, No Order Processed.
England: Fleet Skagerrak, No Order Processed.
England: Fleet North Atlantic Ocean, No Order Processed.
England: Fleet Barents Sea, No Order Processed.
England: Army Ruhr, No Order Processed.
England: Fleet North Sea, No Order Processed.
England: Army St Petersburg, No Order Processed.
England: Army Kiel, No Order Processed.
England: Army London, No Order Processed.
England: DRAW YES
No, I will not do this again, after I've written orders.
Ben
Message from Russia to Italy
Well, the only thing that could have gone better is if we had supported me to
Pie. I was surprised that Erik did not take the support to Nap, but it
doesn't much matter.
Tell me how you want to proceed. We're pretty much in the "either I solo, or
I back off until it's trivial to eliminate Andy and get the 3 way" state. I'm
not sure whether you'd prefer just to push for my solo, or to try to take
advantage of Ben and Erik's obvious upcoming distrust to squeeze into a 4
way.
We've got a couple of options. Overall, the big question is whether I try for
Ven or Nap. You still have a good chance at getting a build either way, but
more so if we go with Nap-Rom.
Let me know what you are thinking. I'd like to work something out that has me
taking or tapping Ven, but that's entirely self serving -- it ensures that
elminating you is trivial for EF, since you'd be out of armies that can get
to me. Leaving you Ven does not really worry me either, since I don't see a
lot that one army can do that would be a problem in the Balkans or Germany,
and it gives you a slightly improved chance of being in a 4-way.
I'm around until I leave for DipCon on Thursday, so we may be able to work
out next steps before the deadline. As I said, I'd still love the solo, and I
will try to get it to a 3 way if that fails, but if you want to work towards
the 4 way, I won't hold it against you. Just let me know how you'd like to
go.
Take care, and see you in a couple of days.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
You are not out of your depth. You got stung by a bad move on Erik's part. If
he had moved Bur-Mun instead of misordering to Mar this wouldn't have
happened. As it is, it will be very easy to maneuver to a 3 way, since I
don't need any German centers to hold my line, I can easily back off.
Andy's move to work with me was not that surprising given Erik's mistake. He
needs to have throw power, because that's what keeps him in the game. I
believe (but don't know for a fact) that he is still moving to keep himself
alive, not to punish you or Erik. If that's true, then he's still on your
side, and you have nothing to worry about. He only moved with me to get the
leverage he lost when Erik attacked him.
So likely we will end in the 4 way or I back off to make the 3 way completely
safe. Unless I'm misreading Andy's motives.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
A half-hearted apology. Half-hearted because you obviously expected IR
cooperation, so I don't feel like I've "stabbed" so much as "misled" you.
We'll see what Andy's response to the situation is.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
The one thing I didn't say to Ben, which I assume is obvious to the
observers, is that the best chance for EF now is to convince Andy that they
won't eliminate him when I give them the chance. (saying it isn't enough --
they need to convince him.)
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> You are not out of your depth. You got stung by a bad move on Erik's
part.
Kind of you to say - but I should have anticipated this possibility - it
was so *likely* - and easily avoided.
> If he had moved Bur-Mun instead of misordering to Mar this wouldn't have
> happened.
Ya, ya. But I should have read the board the way it lays.
> As it is, it will be very easy to maneuver to a 3 way, since I
> don't need any German centers to hold my line, I can easily back off.
Then it will be your call - I have set draw & my broadcast was quite
sincere.
> Andy's move to work with me was not that surprising given Erik's mistake.
Yes! And *that's* what I missed.
> He needs to have throw power, because that's what keeps him in the game. I
> believe (but don't know for a fact) that he is still moving to keep
himself
> alive, not to punish you or Erik.
:-) I think his motives, whatever he may be telling himself, are, 80% stay
alive, 20% punish Erik. I don't think he has any beef with me, and he is,
at heart, a game player, and the overwhelming motivation for his play will
spring from that fountain.
> If that's true, then he's still on your side, and you have nothing
> to worry about. He only moved with me to get the
> leverage he lost when Erik attacked him.
Yes, as I said, I 80% agree. Which is enough.
> So likely we will end in the 4 way or I back off to make the 3 way
completely
> safe. Unless I'm misreading Andy's motives.
We are seeing eye to eye. But I am not asking you to back off, and a 4 way
would be fine with me, of course, after this foolishness.
Ben
Message from Russia to Italy
> it ensures that elminating you is trivial for EF
I trust that you understand this, but the point is that it would ensure that
you are 100% solo-oriented. But as noted, if you want to fight to turn the
3-way into a 4-way, that's fine. Just didn't want this quote to get
misinterpreted as "now I'm just looking to get you eliminated".
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
> You are not out of your depth. You got stung by a bad move on Erik's
part.
Kind of you to say - but I should have anticipated this possibility - it
was so *likely* - and easily avoided.
> If he had moved Bur-Mun instead of misordering to Mar this wouldn't have
> happened.
Ya, ya. But I should have read the board the way it lays.
> As it is, it will be very easy to maneuver to a 3 way, since I
> don't need any German centers to hold my line, I can easily back off.
Then it will be your call - I have set draw & my broadcast was quite
sincere.
> > Andy's move to work with me was not that surprising given Erik's mistake.
> Yes! And *that's* what I missed.
True. My point is that you, Erik and I were all assuming the game was about
to end. I tried to end it -- I tried to end it; I could *not* have ordered
support for Bur-Mun, and then the same result would have been close to the
same as it is now, but with an indication that I was looking for a better
result. The fact that I ordered Bur-Mun was a clear indication that the game
was over for me.
After the misorder, Andy wrote me asking if I wanted help to a solo. I argued
with him that I didn't think it could be done, but he argued that Mun-Ber
gave an outside chance, and so here we are. I might have been surprised in
your situation as well. I guess I'm saying that it's one thing to recognize
that he'd try to throw but it's another to see that he'd figure out a way to
make it possible.
> :-) I think his motives, whatever he may be telling himself, are, 80% stay
> alive, 20% punish Erik. I don't think he has any beef with me, and he is,
> at heart, a game player, and the overwhelming motivation for his play will
> spring from that fountain.
Maybe, but he's running out of people to punish. :) (He said the same thing
for Philippe and Jason at various points).
> > So likely we will end in the 4 way or I back off to make the 3 way
> > completely safe. Unless I'm misreading Andy's motives.
> We are seeing eye to eye. But I am not asking you to back off, and a 4 way
> would be fine with me, of course, after this foolishness.
Well, I won't be backing off or setting draw in the short term, so I'm glad
you are not asking me to. :) But I will make going from 4 to 3 really easy
when and if the time comes.
--- Eric
Message from England to all
Raise your hand if you requested the absence and are unavailable.
Thank you.
Ben
Message from Russia to all
>Raise your hand if you requested the absence and are unavailable.
I requested an absence, but should be available until tomorrow evening. So
I guess I shouldn't be saying anything.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> >Raise your hand if you requested the absence and are unavailable.
>
> I requested an absence, but should be available until tomorrow evening. So
> I guess I shouldn't be saying anything.
Figures - the one guy who's writing me.
Humph.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> > >Raise your hand if you requested the absence and are unavailable.
> >
> > I requested an absence, but should be available until tomorrow evening. So
> > I guess I shouldn't be saying anything.
>Figures - the one guy who's writing me.
>
>Humph.
You know what would really teach them not to ignore you? Throwing the game
to me. :)
Your ever helpful friend...
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> You know what would really teach them not to ignore you? Throwing the game
> to me. :)
That would be pricesless. Every player in the game at one point or another
trying to throw you the game.
Ben
Message from Italy to all
Folks,
Ive been without email for about 24 hours...anything that was sent to m e
should be re-sent.
thanks
Andy
Every normal man must be tempted, at times
to spit on his hands, hoist the skull and
crossbones, and begin slitting throats"
- H.L.Menken
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
That went well.
I think the set of orders we need is something like this.
Italy;
A BER s A BOH - MUN
A VEN s F NAP - ROM
F NAP - ROM
Russia:
A APU s F NAP - ROM
F ION - NAP
F GRE or EAS - ION, with the other supporting the move.
A TYR s A BOH - MUN
A TRI h
A SIL s A BOH - MUN
A VIE - BOH
A WAR h
A PRU s A BER
A LVN and MOS hug
You might tell Ben that if yhe gives you STP you will get him back into
Berlin.
Andy
Message from Italy to Russia
Hi Eric....
Saw you just hours ago....and would be having this conversation in person,
except that this is a comments game and the observers need to see it.
> Well, the only thing that could have gone better is if we had supported me to
> Pie. I was surprised that Erik did not take the support to Nap, but it
> doesn't much matter.
Not really.
> Tell me how you want to proceed. We're pretty much in the "either I solo, or
> I back off until it's trivial to eliminate Andy and get the 3 way" state. I'm
> not sure whether you'd prefer just to push for my solo, or to try to take
> advantage of Ben and Erik's obvious upcoming distrust to squeeze into a 4
> way.
That is your call. If the 3 of you work together, you can eliminate me. No
questions asked.
> We've got a couple of options. Overall, the big question is whether I try for
> Ven or Nap. You still have a good chance at getting a build either way, but
> more so if we go with Nap-Rom.
How do I put this diplmatically.
I would like to try to follow through on both phases of what I spelled out
last season, just to see if it works.
If you guys decide to eliminate me, you can do it, so why not try this.
> Let me know what you are thinking. I'd like to work something out that has me
> taking or tapping Ven, but that's entirely self serving -- it ensures that
> elminating you is trivial for EF,
It also insure that I cannot take Rome. And since I just agreed with
you to break the stalemate line, I would at least like to try to see if my
overall plan will work. It doesnt hurt you at all to wait one season.
since you'd be out of armies that can get
> to me. Leaving you Ven does not really worry me either, since I don't see a
> lot that one army can do that would be a problem in the Balkans or Germany,
> and it gives you a slightly improved chance of being in a 4-way.
Yes. It does, but it is also that unit that preserves the whole boot for
you.
> I'm around until I leave for DipCon on Thursday, so we may be able to work
> out next steps before the deadline. As I said, I'd still love the solo, and I
> will try to get it to a 3 way if that fails, but if you want to work towards
> the 4 way, I won't hold it against you. Just let me know how you'd like to
> go.
Of course I want to be in the draw, but I doubt seriously that Erik will
allow it, and as much as I hate draw whittling, I understand that it is
the mindset of most judge players, it is not of most FtF players.
> Take care, and see you in a couple of days.
See ya later today.
Andy
Message from Russia to Italy
LOL!
I was so happy to read that you had lost email. I thought maybe you hadn't
seen my press, and I was just going to drop it.
I wasn't trying to say anything about what you must or must not do. I was
just throwing things out on the table. I'm not trying to back out of your
plan, and I'm happy to follow your moves. Absolute worst case whatever
happens (failing catastrophic brainfarting on my part) is a 4WD, and I don't
care so much about a 3WD that I'm willing to pass up a solo chance to get
there. So frankly, most important to me in order are:
1) Making moves that keeps you interested in cooperating.
2) Making moves that are effective at getting to a solo.
3) Making moves that don't put me at risk.
If the board changed significantly, I think that #3 could move up, but with
Adr disbanded, there's just not a lot of concern for me.
Your suggestion was: Ven S Nap-Rom, Apu S Nap-Rom, Nap-Rom, Ion-Nap,
supported attack on Ion, and presumably Tyl/Sil/Ber S Boh-Mun (as opposed to
something like Tyl-Pie). That's fine. If Erik orders Tys/Tus S Rom (which he
did last season) it'll fail. Another option to consider is:
Ven-Tus, Ion-Tys and pretty much everything else you suggested. That 100%
guarantees popping F Rom, and if everything goes well you would even get a
build (hold Ven, Rom, Nap, Mun, Ber, and Nap is open). You could then build a
fleet in Nap, and we try to support you into Tys so I can slip in behind you.
It also gives you a better chance at surviving to a 4 way, so I'm not at all
against your recommended moves, especially because you have a better read on
what Erik is likely to do, and selfishly, it gives me another build (though
I'm not clear how important that is. If you thing Tus S Mar-Pie is coming,
then your suggestion is much better.
Anyway, the gist is that I'm really fine with your moves. I hadn't repeated
the last message and thought we were still on a blank slate. You can just
ignore my previous paranoid messages.
Let me know what you think, and I'll see you in a few hours. :)
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
> I was so happy to read that you had lost email. I thought maybe you hadn't
> seen my press, and I was just going to drop it.
No...I just wanted time to digest what you wrote before responding.
> I wasn't trying to say anything about what you must or must not do. I was
> just throwing things out on the table. I'm not trying to back out of your
> plan, and I'm happy to follow your moves. Absolute worst case whatever
> happens (failing catastrophic brainfarting on my part) is a 4WD, and I don't
> care so much about a 3WD that I'm willing to pass up a solo chance to get
> there. So frankly, most important to me in order are:
Cool
> 1) Making moves that keeps you interested in cooperating.
> 2) Making moves that are effective at getting to a solo.
> 3) Making moves that don't put me at risk.
>
> If the board changed significantly, I think that #3 could move up, but with
> Adr disbanded, there's just not a lot of concern for me.
Works for me.
> Your suggestion was: Ven S Nap-Rom, Apu S Nap-Rom, Nap-Rom, Ion-Nap,
> supported attack on Ion, and presumably Tyl/Sil/Ber S Boh-Mun (as opposed to
> something like Tyl-Pie). That's fine. If Erik orders Tys/Tus S Rom (which he
> did last season) it'll fail. Another option to consider is:
>
> Ven-Tus, Ion-Tys and pretty much everything else you suggested. That 100%
> guarantees popping F Rom, and if everything goes well you would even get a
> build (hold Ven, Rom, Nap, Mun, Ber, and Nap is open).
Assuming he doesnt go TYS - NAP and from past history I dont see any
reason he would. You are correct...Lets do it your way.
> fleet in Nap, and we try to support you into Tys so I can slip in behind you.
> It also gives you a better chance at surviving to a 4 way, so I'm not at all
> against your recommended moves, especially because you have a better read on
> what Erik is likely to do, and selfishly, it gives me another build (though
> I'm not clear how important that is. If you thing Tus S Mar-Pie is coming,
> then your suggestion is much better.
We can do it your way.
> Anyway, the gist is that I'm really fine with your moves. I hadn't repeated
> the last message and thought we were still on a blank slate. You can just
> ignore my previous paranoid messages.
>
> Let me know what you think, and I'll see you in a few hours. :)
Lets do it your way, and I will see you in a few hours.
Andy
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
I will point out that the last time we did a set of moves like this....you
stabbed the hell out of me.....please dont make that a habit....:-)
Thanks
Andy
Message from Russia to Italy
I wasn't planning on stabbing, but I was going to ask whether you thought I
should look at something like Tyl S Tri-Ven.
To be honest, I'm not seeing what I could do to stab you with these moves
that I couldn't do with the other ones. Tapping Ven and supporting Ion-Nap
works as a stab either way. But here there is no point. Last time, you had a
clear path into my centers, here, keeping you around or not doesn't really
change the board complection -- there's a bunch of non-Russian fleets on all
my dots. :)
Whether those fleets are Italian or French isn't that important. And since I
KNOW the French ones won't help me, I might as well work with the ones that
might help me. :)
Let me know what you think about Ven. I tend to think it's premature, and
we'll probably want to look at it for next season instead.
I'm heading out for the morning, so more next time I'm on line.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> Let me know what you think about Ven. I tend to think it's premature, and
> we'll probably want to look at it for next season instead.
It is. Because the scenario where I saty even isnt all that out of the
questions.
I get berlin, you get Munich, I get rome, if you got to Venice, I stay
even....we REALLY need another fleet on that side of the boot if we are
going to get you a solo, and he can block it up totally from where he is.
see you in a while.
Message from Russia to Italy
I'd like to make one change to our agreement. Please support Sil as the mover
into Mun. I'd like to keep Vie available to backup Tyl next Spring in the
unlikely event we actually get. I'm willing to risk you going after Pru if
you REALLY want to help Ben pop it.
So your orders would be:
Ber S Sil-Mun (probably irrelevant)
Ven-Tus
Nap-Rom
I will order:
Ion-Tys
Apu S Nap-Rom
Pru S Ber
double support for Sil-Mun
supported attack on Ion
Please confirm Sil-Mun, and then I'll unset wait.
And again, it was great seeing you over the weekend. Thanks also for
introducing me to Adam, Edi, Tom and the local gang. I've already joined
their Bay Aread Dip mailing list.
Take care,
--- Eric
Message from Russia to all
Hi all,
Sorry for the silence, I was away at DipCon over the weekend, and as usual,
Monday was too busy for Dip.
DipCon was quite an event. Very well run. My first face to face experience,
and man, Dip is a *very* different game face to face. Because I have very
little from the weekend to prop up my ego, I'll say I was very proud that I
only failed to order one unit in four rounds of play (the tourney used "drop
dead" timing, where when the timer said zero, whatever you had written were
your orders.) I misordered frequently, and ordered correctly but badly many,
many times, but only that one time went unintentionally NMR for a unit.
Now I've been eliminated by some of the best of them, and by Doug Massey,
too. :) I can salvage some esteem from the fact that in my one game in which
I made the draw I managed to hold out as Germany despite Edward Hawthorne in
France trying to engineer my demise with England and Turkey (and for a while
Austria as well). I can also say that my Russian loss (surviving at six
centers in a 2-way not including me) lasted a lot longer than Andy's Russian
loss, but I'll let him talk about that one. :)
All in all, a blast of an event.
Back to the game, I apologize for the holdup in getting my orders in. I
intended to enter them before starting play in Portland. I'll send them in
with this message, though I'm available for responding to press if anyone
needs me.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
> Ber S Sil-Mun (probably irrelevant)
> Ven-Tus
> Nap-Rom
>
> I will order:
> Ion-Tys
> Apu S Nap-Rom
> Pru S Ber
> double support for Sil-Mun
> supported attack on Ion
>
> Please confirm Sil-Mun, and then I'll unset wait.
Done
> And again, it was great seeing you over the weekend. Thanks also for
> introducing me to Adam, Edi, Tom and the local gang. I've already joined
> their Bay Aread Dip mailing list.
It was great seeing you Eric....you have to come to more tournaments....
DixieCon is the best tourney of the year.
Andy
England: Fleet Baltic Sea SUPPORT Italian Army Berlin
England: Fleet Barents Sea SUPPORT Army St Petersburg
England: Fleet Denmark SUPPORT Army Kiel
England: Army Kiel SUPPORT Italian Army Berlin
England: Army London → North Sea → Edinburgh
England: Fleet North Atlantic Ocean HOLD
England: Fleet North Sea CONVOY Army London → Edinburgh
England: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Kiel
England: Fleet Skagerrak → Sweden
England: Army St Petersburg HOLD
France: Army Burgundy → Munich (*bounce*)
France: Army Marseilles HOLD
France: Army Paris → Burgundy (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Rome → Tyrrhenian Sea
France: Fleet Tunis SUPPORT Fleet Rome → Tyrrhenian Sea
France: Fleet Tuscany → Gulf of Lyon
France: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea → Western Mediterranean
Italy: Army Berlin SUPPORT Russian Army Bohemia → Munich (*void*)
Italy: Fleet Naples → Rome
Italy: Army Venice → Tuscany
Russia: Army Apulia SUPPORT Italian Fleet Naples → Rome
Russia: Army Bohemia SUPPORT Army Silesia → Munich
Russia: Fleet Eastern Mediterranean → Ionian Sea (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Greece SUPPORT Fleet Eastern Mediterranean → Ionian Sea
Russia: Fleet Ionian Sea → Tyrrhenian Sea (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Livonia SUPPORT Army Prussia
Russia: Army Moscow SUPPORT Army Livonia
Russia: Army Prussia SUPPORT Italian Army Berlin
Russia: Army Silesia → Munich
Russia: Army Trieste → Venice
Russia: Army Tyrolia SUPPORT Army Silesia → Munich
Russia: Army Vienna → Trieste
Russia: Army Warsaw → Silesia
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