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England: Builds 2 units
France: Removes 2 units
Russia: Builds 2 units
Turkey: Removes 2 units
Message from Russia to Italy
> If you had that big a problme wiht me building you should have said it to
> me.
Had no problem with you building. Obviously, I didn't want you to go down a
unit either or I wouldn't have supported you to Smy.
> To Andy : I am uncomfortable letting you get to 6. And then bounce me in
> Trieste with Serbia, I would have reassured you I was building a fleet and
> we could have moved forward. Stab averted.
Which stab are we talking about averting, mine or yours? :) Again, I think it
would have been useful to arrange the bounce, but the first question I asked
is: what do you plan to do? When you told me that Ven S Rom-Tus was your
plan, it put any other comments from you in doubt. The only reassurance I
would get from the fleet-only build is seeing it. I doubt there was anything
you could say that would have truly reassured me given the lack of a straight
answer earlier. Again, I will acknowledge this as a flaw in my play (in
general, not just here) -- it would probably have been more productive to say
"bullshit" to your face ("buffaloshit"?) and work from there than to just
work silently from that assumption.
> Since we are living and learning. ....my moves up top are MUCH better for
> you. It gives you 3 armies in germany and you are across the stalemate
> line, you build in Warsaw, support yourself to Prussia and start taking
> English dots. While moving your units out of Turkey.
They are if you are helping me, but with Erik moving away, I don't consider
the green units mine any more. An army in Tri is looking really strongly to
me like the Balkans are up for grabs. My moves were also based on a strong
conviction that Erik was indeed still moving away from you. A conviction you
clearly shared.
> And you still have my fleets working for you in the med.
Same comment as above, though you having fleets in the med working for YOU is
still good for me. Which is why I didn't want to see you lose units. I
personally don't see this as a problem for RI cooperation towards a draw,
just towards an R solo, which I didn't think was your interest any more
anyway. But by letting you keep all of your units (even while denying you a
build) it ensures that you still have the majority say in the Med. To me that
makes RI cooperation a necessity for each of us.
Or at least, that's my thinking.
Good luck at PrezCon!
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
After signing off yesterday, I realized another major blunder on my part. I
was not kidding in my message to Ben that I fully expected Mun-Ruh to bounce.
The sad thing is that it never occurred to me that therefore Mun-Kie was the
right move to make. If it had I never would have told Ben that I wasn't
attacking Ber (even though he didn't believe me).
And while an ER is still a possibility, Andy has a strong enough position
that I doubt my ability to get to Tun (or any of the Med for that matter) in
time to keep him from throwing to Ben, which is why I commented about REI in
my last message to self. Granted if I can hold Mun I don't need Tun, so maybe
again I'm being too cautious.
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
Yeah, well, Andy was supposed to work with me more. I didn't expect you
to support him, either. Go figure. :-)
I'll keep the fleet in Aeg. Andy deserves a little bit of payback for
giving it to me where the sun don't shine. ;-))
jason
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
I am really sleep deprived. So if this doesnt have my usual cordial
polish....forgive me.
> > If you had that big a problme wiht me building you should have said it to
> > me.
>
> Had no problem with you building. Obviously, I didn't want you to go down a
> unit either or I wouldn't have supported you to Smy.
Ok.....so why did you take a dot from me.
> > To Andy : I am uncomfortable letting you get to 6. And then bounce me in
> > Trieste with Serbia, I would have reassured you I was building a fleet and
> > we could have moved forward. Stab averted.
>
> Which stab are we talking about averting, mine or yours? :)
Explain to me, how making a non supported move to one of my own dots is a
stab.
Again, I think it
> would have been useful to arrange the bounce, but the first question I asked
> is: what do you plan to do? When you told me that Ven S Rom-Tus was your
> plan, it put any other comments from you in doubt.
I dont actually think that was my answer but if it was....it was stupid of
me. I had no clue what I was going to do with Rome, Venice was always
going to Trieste.
The only reassurance I
> would get from the fleet-only build is seeing it. I doubt there was anything
> you could say that would have truly reassured me given the lack of a straight
> answer earlier. Again, I will acknowledge this as a flaw in my play (in
> general, not just here) -- it would probably have been more productive to say
> "bullshit" to your face ("buffaloshit"?) and work from there than to just
> work silently from that assumption.
Yes. You should have.
Because if saying one shaky thing to you when I wasnt even adjacent to any
of your centers, and even if I moved there, you could cover all of your
dots with your 3 spare armies in TYR, RUM and SER.
Let me give you an anology for my impression of this;
You suspect that your teenage son drinks a beer or 2 occasionally with is
friends, but when questioned about it, he doesnt give you the clearest
answer. So instead of asking him to clarify his answer, you dont want him
drinking and driving, so you blow his car up.
> > you. It gives you 3 armies in germany and you are across the stalemate
> > line, you build in Warsaw, support yourself to Prussia and start taking
> > English dots. While moving your units out of Turkey.
>
> They are if you are helping me, but with Erik moving away, I don't consider
> the green units mine any more.
First.....as I said previously. I wasnt sure Erik was really moving away,
and he didnt really move away....
He covered Tunis and hovered around me. As a matter of fact I think he
might be closer now than he was before, but I havent really looked at it.
And to answer your statement, Why not?
If you think you can solo without me, its not a horrible move, but
currently you have 2 southern fleets, and you can build one....I still
have 3 southern fleets, you are wholely unprepared to have a fight in the
Med. Especially without me or someone else with a bunch of fleets on your
side.
An army in Tri is looking really strongly to
> me like the Balkans are up for grabs. My moves were also based on a strong
> conviction that Erik was indeed still moving away from you. A conviction you
> clearly shared.
No...I clearly said that I wasnt sure whether he was moving away or not,
and he clearly didnt move very far. He covered Tunis, he didnt leave the
Med.
I covered Trieste because it was too easy for you to take it from me.
I still think you would be better off with an army in Ruhr.
And assume I make it to Trieste....you can cover all your dots...without
any real issue....what do I start that fight.
> > And you still have my fleets working for you in the med.
>
> Same comment as above, though you having fleets in the med working for YOU is
> still good for me. Which is why I didn't want to see you lose units. I
> personally don't see this as a problem for RI cooperation towards a draw,
> just towards an R solo, which I didn't think was your interest any more
> anyway.
As I said before, and I will repeat. Erik hasnt moved very far yet.
But by letting you keep all of your units (even while denying you a
> build) it ensures that you still have the majority say in the Med. To me that
> makes RI cooperation a necessity for each of us.
I think we should definitely continue to work together. Getting me to 6
would make it a whole lot easier to move toward France.
> Or at least, that's my thinking.
>
> Good luck at PrezCon!
Thanks
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
This time I will try to be as straightforward as I can. I don't believe
almost any of the assertions you make in your last few messages. I had spent
about 40 minutes responding to your latest message, but I just got to a point
where it's absurd. I am literally laughing out loud while reading some of
your comments.
Andy, there is just no way that you believe what you are telling me. And,
when it gets right down to it, that is why we're talking past each other. You
are trying to convince me of something that I cannot be convinced of -- even
if I'm wrong. I find the discussion fun -- really, I'm not angry at all --
but we're not being productive either.
I'll cull out the chaff from my longer message and just pull out the main
points (yes, this is the *short* version of my press!):
> Because if saying one shaky thing to you when I wasnt even adjacent to any
> of your centers, and even if I moved there, you could cover all of your
> dots with your 3 spare armies in TYR, RUM and SER.
Your move suggestions were: Tyr-Mun, Rum-Ukr, and Ser-Bul, along with Ven S
Rom-Tus. Most of these were stated twice, some three times. If any one of
these moves were successful, those armies wouldn't be looking quite so
"spare" any more.
You could not have overlooked this outcome, and your refusal to acknowledge
what would have resulted from your move suggestions makes me more, not less,
comfortable with the decision not to call you on it in advance. You can
justify your intent all you like, but you can read a board ten times as well
as I can, and you cannot rationalize the moves you recommended as "harmless",
"shaky" or "easy to recover from" for me.
If Erik did attack you, it would still be easy to help me against him, yes,
but if he backs off, you have picked up position against me and can force me
to concede parts of Turkey and much of the Balkans. And if you really wanted
to help me in the north, then Ven-Tyl is the correct move, not Ven-Tri. A
unit in Tri makes zero difference to any situation except RI.
I'm not angry about your choices -- they make perfect sense to me. But this
has got to be what you were thinking strategy-wise, and this ongoing argument
that moving to Tri was to help me, as well as some of the other move
suggestions you made, just doesn't hold up.
> > When you told me it [Ven] was supporting Rom-Tus
>
> I dont actually think that was my answer but if it was....it was stupid of
> me. I had no clue what I was going to do with Rome, Venice was always
> going to Trieste.
I was also confident that Venice was always going to Trieste. That's the
problem. You twice clearly stated it was supporting Rom-Tus. I'm not going to
get into an argument over this: it was the reason I doubted you, and I reread
those messages several times to ensure I hadn't mistaken your suggestions. My
response to first message was my "what is your goal?" press, which you
responded to by repeating the Rom-Tus suggestions. If those two presses were
both mistakes, they were the mistakes that led to my decision to take Tri.
And I still don't believe either was an oversight.
> He covered Tunis and hovered around me. As a matter of fact I think he
> might be closer now than he was before, but I havent really looked at it.
This was actually the point where I started laughing out loud. :) And he's
disbanding two too boot.
> If you think you can solo without me, its not a horrible move, but
> currently you have 2 southern fleets, and you can build one....I still
> have 3 southern fleets, you are wholely unprepared to have a fight in the
> Med. Especially without me or someone else with a bunch of fleets on your
> side.
I don't think I can solo without you. As I said, I kept you from dropping
units because I know you need to have a decent position. I was trying to open
up discussion of 3way compatible moves that still give me a hope of a solo
when it became clear that Erik was backing off last season. You claimed you
were going after Erik still, so I unilaterally made moves that kept you
strong enough to operate in the Med and still fight for the 3way, but also
kept me in the more dominant position in RI.
And finally, if you really are focused on Erik, then the lack of a build
doesn't matter. I don't need centers beyond Italian ones to solo, and you
don't need more units to ensure I get to them. So again, your concern that I
took (or might take) Tri shows that you are not still focused on Erik, but
are rather looking to strengthen your position relative to me.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
Fascinating to read David's comments from pinnacle EoG's right after writing
that last note:
"[....]Murray, Warren, and to a lesser extent, Scot
fell into the trap of saying 'this is how things will have to
be...you'll do this because it's the only thing that makes sense.'
Hogwash! There are always choices. [....]
"Part of the diplomatic process is assessing the interests and needs of
your opponents. If you can do this, then you can start working on ways
to meet those needs while also meeting yours. If, however, you assume
your opponent is only motivated by so and so, then you've cut yourself
out of any cooperative relationship with that person and created a
self-fulfilling prophecy - now your opponent IS much more likely to do
the very thing you feared."
I agree with this, but in some cases you are correct to make that assumption.
I believe this is the case for me here.
(I post this comment here, because posting to the pinnacle-d list would be
inappropriate, as that game is ongoing.)
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
You make several good points.
I can understand why my assertations could sound contrary.
I was taking them in segments.....and looking at them individually. But
coupled together, they sound nigh unto ridiculous.
Assuming Turkey keeps BLA or ANK, I will start moving my units toward
France.....immediately.
Is it possible to leave my dots alone in the short term.
Message from Russia to Italy
> Is it possible to leave my dots alone in the short term.
Absolutely. That was my plan all along (though that may now sound contrary to
you). I said a few presses ago that you working for YOUR own good in the Med
is good for me. Nothing I see changes my mind now. It would take me a long
time to get into the Med and set up to defend it. Taking dots from you just
ensures that it's that much harder for me to get to the Med (unless I come up
with a way to get *all* of them at once, but that's more your forte than
mine!)
I will probably still build a southern fleet to ensure that I can defend the
Bla, and it does prep later movement into the Med if it comes to that.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
I don't know if I've sent any mail your way this season (the danger of using
only a web client to read my mail -- ugh). I made some moves this last season
that pissed off two friendly neighbors that were moving away from me (Andy
and Ben) in order to keep you as viable as I could. With Ben not taking Ruh,
and Andy not getting a build, I think it's a win-win for us both.
So now I'd like to know what your goal is. Earlier you were debating either
sticking it out in your home centers as best you could, or maybe helping a
Russian solo to tweak Ben's nose. I'm still happy to help with that solo,
obviously! I think there's a good chance we could make it work if that's
something that still interests you. Throwing in my own plug for it, I don't
see a way that Ben can be cut out of a draw, and I suspect that even with the
moves against Ben and Andy, EI can probably squeeze you out before I can
distract either. (And the downside of me keeping Andy from getting a build is
that gives Andy less reason to come after me.)
If we go for an all out Russian quick win, I should be able to take Ank, Smy
and Gre (if Jason works with me) and Ven and Mar (if you work with me) for 17
SCs. Then it's just a matter of trying to squeak out an SC from Rom, Nap,
Tun, Ber, Spa or maybe Par. (I may actually need two of those if I lose StP
in the meantime.)
But even if you're not looking for an R solo, anything that stymies Ben at
this point is good, even if it means that Andy is going to try to attack me.
I could probably get you into Ven as way to keep enough SC's even if Ben gets
into Por. Though frankly I have not tried to work whether that leaves you
enough strength to hold your other centers, so I could also see that you
might want to keep Mar in place to let you support Gas/Bur against Ben, or
that it might be your best disband.
I'm not going to be very available tomorrow, but I think we have time anyway,
since your desires will more impact the next move, not the upcoming builds
phase. I'm not at all assuming that you are going for an R solo, but wanted
to put my thinking out on the table in case it was my lack of talking last
season that made pressing for one unappealing. As noted above, anything that
stymies Ben (or Andy for that matter) is good for me, so I'm open to ideas.
Let me know what you'd like to do next.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
I take it as a good sign that Andy didn't swear at me in his response. The
short, curt response is more what I expect from him, but I don't always know
what it means.
The question is whether I showed myself to be a player with keen insight or a
player who is a complete pain in the ass and not worth ever talking to. :)
Or as I said in my original, longer press (that I edited down before
sending): "I hope I'm not channeling Andrew from the original comments game
for you with this attitude".
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Russia
Hi mate, I am finally back in town. Have just finished a 10 month contract
in the north of holland.
I suggest an army in SEV & WAR. The two fleets you have are enough to take
care of Turkey no matter what he keeps. My main suggestion for the spring is
sil - mun, tyr - pie, mun - tys, war - sil. Getting armies into Italy I
believe is the key. You just need to keep MUN & STP or get TUN if you lose
one of the fore mentioned. It will take a full two years to get from SEV to
ION with a fleet. Time enough to build one next year. Main focus should be
the stiring up of the war between EF.
Maybe even get France to support you into MUN from SIL with an offer of
MUN - RUH to help take out BEL (offer it to France for the fall). Obviosuly
you just stick to mun - TYR instead.
You have a chance of the solo. Picking up VEN and pushing for Italy is the
key. Getting into PIE will help a long way on achieving this. This is my 2
cents worth. Having followed the pinnacle press on the players I am inclined
to sit this one out as a player, no doubt I am torn to bits in the forum :-)
Tony
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Andy tells me to expect you to go to PRU, etc., starting in the spring.
If you do, there's not much I can do about it, but I'd be disappointed if we locked up the North like that, as it would pretty much consign us to some kind of 3WD with the third power to be decided later. As much as I may dream of a solo, I *really* don't think it's likely; where would I cross the stalemate line? MOS? TUN? Not likely.
Anyway, if the 3WD is the conclusion you want, fine; let me know and we can arrange the proper dance steps. There's plenty of time to think about it.
Also beware of the the press you receive from Andy. You tell me he told you to go to RUH. He'd *firmly* recommended I attack STP, which I chose not to do. It's not in his interest for us to have a peaceful border, as it frees up too many of your units in the south. So just keep in mind that his simple, declarative style, is its own kind of seduction. . .
Ben
Message from Italy to Russia
> > Is it possible to leave my dots alone in the short term.
>
> Absolutely. That was my plan all along (though that may now sound contrary to
> you). I said a few presses ago that you working for YOUR own good in the Med
> is good for me. Nothing I see changes my mind now. It would take me a long
> time to get into the Med and set up to defend it. Taking dots from you just
> ensures that it's that much harder for me to get to the Med (unless I come up
> with a way to get *all* of them at once, but that's more your forte than
> mine!)
I see what you are saying. And it would be damn tough to get all my dots
at once.
Ok.....one thing....And I hope you are ok with it....
I would like to get to 6. Six feels like safety to me.
I will move off toward the French, and if you can give me a dot back for
Trieste, I would appreciate it. And I have a plan if you are willing to
listen.
take care
Andy
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Great to hear from you. I think I agree with you on Sev. I told Andy I was
planning to build a fleet, but I was hoping he'd complain and I'd be able to
"concede" building an army.
I agree that there is definite solo potential in my position, especially if
EF and IT tensions remain high and Ben does not move on StP. (So far both F
and T seem to sound more pro-Russia than pro-someone else, but you can never
trust that too much.
I had not actually considered Tyl-Pie, I had more offered to support Mar-Pie,
but Tyl-Pie might make a good deal of sense.
Thanks for the suggestions, and don't hesitate to drop any more my way.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
To clarify the Ruh thing: I did not move to Ruh because Andy suggested it;
that was what caused me to be so certain it would fail. I know that's
somewhat bizarre logic, but I knew (correct or not) that Andy was trying to
set me up last season, not get me into good position.
As to Pru, I see no reason to go there. I will put together enough units to
defend against English convoys and Italian Balkan movements, but I don't need
units in Pru to do either of those. It's going to take me many seasons and
many units to get a good 2way line established in the EMed, that's where my
focus will be.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
I was looking at the board and just realized that Andy has only fleets in the
east (duh!). If you do keep Aeg, I can press through to Smy without
necessarily taking Ank. So even if something happens that makes it impossible
for you to take Gre in the short term (like Ion S Gre-Aeg), I can leave Ank
uncovered to allow your fleet to hang around. I can't get a fleet out as far
as you are for at least two seasons anyway, so the position you have is worth
a lot more than the SC I'd gain from taking Ank at this point.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Oh, and I should also say:
Thanks for not attacking StP! It is very much appreciated.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
> I will move off toward the French, and if you can give me a dot back for
> Trieste, I would appreciate it. And I have a plan if you are willing to
> listen.
I've been thinking that I would probably offer you Bul(sc), since that
doesn't threaten me and it also helps to pin the likely raider in place. At
the same time, if that doesn't work out, I could see giving you Con in Fall
for similar reasons, though Bul(sc) gives me more warm and fuzziness. And
I'll probably want at least one of those dots back as you start making gains
against France.
But all that said, I am always open to hearing ideas, even if I just end up
ranting back at you about them in the end. :) I know you'd never be able to
tell from this game, but discussing the ideas is actually my favorite part of
the game. As much as I think of myself as "classical", Karlis has finally
forced me to admit that I'm really a "club" player at heart. So discussing
ideas is the best part of the game to me.
Oh, and looking at the board more closely, I don't think I need to build a
fleet at this point. I'll still build in Sev, but since I'm not getting out
into the Med anytime soon, I don't think F Sev is particularly pressing at
this point.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
> > I will move off toward the French, and if you can give me a dot back for
> > Trieste, I would appreciate it. And I have a plan if you are willing to
> > listen.
>
> I've been thinking that I would probably offer you Bul(sc), since that
> doesn't threaten me and it also helps to pin the likely raider in place. At
> the same time, if that doesn't work out, I could see giving you Con in Fall
> for similar reasons, though Bul(sc) gives me more warm and fuzziness. And
> I'll probably want at least one of those dots back as you start making gains
> against France.
When did we start sharing a brain.
My plan is to move SMY - CON and then to BUL(SC) in the fall.
Greece will head out toward France now.
>
> Oh, and looking at the board more closely, I don't think I need to build a
> fleet at this point. I'll still build in Sev, but since I'm not getting out
> into the Med anytime soon, I don't think F Sev is particularly pressing at
> this point.
Excellent.
Andy
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> To clarify the Ruh thing: I did not move to Ruh because Andy suggested it;
> that was what caused me to be so certain it would fail. I know that's
> somewhat bizarre logic, but I knew (correct or not) that Andy was trying
to
> set me up last season, not get me into good position.
Ah. That he was, I suspect.
> As to Pru, I see no reason to go there. I will put together enough units
to
> defend against English convoys and Italian Balkan movements, but I don't
need
> units in Pru to do either of those. It's going to take me many seasons and
> many units to get a good 2way line established in the EMed, that's where
my
> focus will be.
That's what I'd expected - it won't affect my builds anyway. They've been
in for ages - a pair of overdue armies. . .
Ben
England: BUILD Army Edinburgh
England: BUILD Army London
France: REMOVE Army Burgundy
France: REMOVE Army Marseilles
Russia: BUILD Army Sevastopol
Russia: BUILD Army Warsaw
Turkey: REMOVE Army Ankara
Turkey: REMOVE Fleet Black Sea
Centers
England: 11
France: 5
Italy: 5
Russia: 12
Turkey: 1
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