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Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
> >> I know I'm getting to be a threat, but I don't
> >> know if I'm the lesser of the evils of "allies" that you face.
> >
> >I dont know what you mean here.
>
> I mean that I don't know if you're more worried about me and my position, or
> more angry with Philippe and Jason for continuing to pursue you. I suspect
> the former at this point.
Well....these are two different things, hitting Philippe is out of the
question til I have a couple more dots, hitting Jason is definitely
possible, but you seem to be propped up in bed with him....smoking.
What do I get out of attacking Philippe and/or Jason.
> >> So, if you know Philippe was vacating Tri, would you have moved there
> >> yourself?
> >
> >Probably not.
>
> Not surprising.
It wasnt fall.....if you are going to 1 dot someone, which I rarely advise
on doing, you do it in the fall.
> >So..what can you offer me.
>
> Well, it depends on what you want. There are certainly ways I could distract
> Turkey and perhaps help you regain Gre (though I doubt that could happen by
> Fall unless Philippe helps you). But would you be okay with gaining on Jason
> and Philippe in a way that also helps my position?
I might be able to get Philippe to help me.
As long as it gets us closer to being equals where I can be the fleet
power and you can be the army power and we eventually DMZ the turkish
home centers, I can work toward that.
> > Its going to take you a while to get another
> > army in position to force this situation.
>
> No doubt, and that's assuming I even hold the position I have.
>
> > How do you see the board right now....
>
> Well, if Boh-Mun had bounced as I thought it would, I'd probably offer you
> Vie (and by extension, Tri next year). But whatever our relationship, I don't
> want to see Jason get a free pass into Italy, so I'd like to see you get some
> units to slow him down. I don't know if that means stabbing him necessarily
> -- helping you acheives much of the same goal, I think.
Well...you are giving him one assuming you keep the pressure on Austria
and not attacking him .
> Philippe seem
> to have a really odd relationship. Is there some history there, or did you
> both just hit it off really badly in early negotiations?
>
The latter.
> > who do you stab and when??
>
> At this point I'm really not sure what I'm going to do next -- it's too early
> in the turn (you can see why I envy your FtF skills). I clearly don't need
> any more builds than I appear to have now; though I may need more dots, since
> I can't necessarily hold either I'm on right now.
Please tell me you are kidding....
Berlin works every day.
Well...I will be adding lots to my journal of *what I would do if I were
Russia and has this positioning*.
Andy
Message from Germany to Russia
Well my moves are in, BER - KIE, RUH S HOL. It would have been great if you
followed through last turn but with 3 builds you dont have nothing to worry
about. I could use RUH to help support BER - KIE but I think I do more harm
if I help support HOL. I need someone to solo in this game it may as well be
you ;-)
Keep me as a puppet and sparring partner ;-)
If I am out then so does everyone else have to be.
Message from Russia to Austria
> Come on, I was pretty clear about my intent and you knew
> I wasn't a threat for you. That's what made it easy for you to
> proceed without covering Gal.
I wasn't disiagreeing with the "not a threat" point. I agree, and I don't
think I said anything to contradict that in my message to you. My concern was
your plan to support Turkey to Rum in Fall -- that would mean a full year of
me holding in place, and unless I missed it we didn't talk about how we would
progress beyond that point. In that sense I'm disagreeing with the "pretty
clear about my [your] intent" statement. If you said something that you
thought made it clear how we would cooperate in Fall or next year, then I
missed it and I apologize -- I honestly did try to figure out what we would
do. What I thought I heard from you is that you would want to cooperate with
Turkey against me in Fall (making sure it was unsuccessful), and that you
were not interested in cooperative moves this year regardless of what
happened with the Spring moves.
On Ser -- would you be willing to accept my support into Ser this Fall
(instead of vice-versa), and then have me vacate in Spring of next season?
There's more opportunity for your growth that way. It looks like Andy will be
leaving you alone for at least a season, so that should give you the
flexibility to retake Bud without pressure. This is not a demand, just a
request.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> On Ser -- would you be willing to accept my support into Ser this Fall
> (instead of vice-versa), and then have me vacate in Spring of next season?
> There's more opportunity for your growth that way. It looks like Andy will be
> leaving you alone for at least a season, so that should give you the
> flexibility to retake Bud without pressure. This is not a demand, just a
> request.
I'm not interested as I wouldn't able to support myself.
Message from Russia to Germany
At this point I don't know if I'm serious, but what would you think about
something like this:
Ber-Bal-Den
Hol-Kie (Mun S)
I have no idea what France is up to, but even if he taps Mun, there's still a
good chance that you'll end up in Kie and Den. The question I haven't looked
at myself is whether that's good position for going forward. What's your
take?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
I can see that (the concern about self support). So what do you think the
odds are that you can get Andy to support you to Gre? If you can and it
works, you could actually end up building one this Fall, with an open home
center in which to do it.
I'd be left with a unit that I can't support, but that's okay; I wouldn't be
looking to hold Ser for the purpose of getting a build or a unit anyway.
Assuming you get a build or move Vie-Bud, I would expect you to take Ser next
year anyway (unless you needed it to help you get you into Gre), and would
hand it over voluntarily.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> I can see that (the concern about self support). So what do you think the
> odds are that you can get Andy to support you to Gre? If you can and it
> works, you could actually end up building one this Fall, with an open home
> center in which to do it.
I'm walking on eggs with Andy, so I don't really know.
> I'd be left with a unit that I can't support, but that's okay; I wouldn't be
> looking to hold Ser for the purpose of getting a build or a unit anyway.
> Assuming you get a build or move Vie-Bud, I would expect you to take Ser next
> year anyway (unless you needed it to help you get you into Gre), and would
> hand it over voluntarily.
Just so we're clear, you'r ok with getting Ser instead of Bud?
Message from Russia to Italy
> hitting Jason is definitely
> possible, but you seem to be propped up in bed with him....smoking.
LOL! But I don't smoke.
> What do I get out of attacking Philippe and/or Jason.
Pretty much what you say you'd need below. And no, I don't expect you to
attack Philippe now (Fall) that was more a longer-term question.
>> Well, it depends on what you want. There are certainly ways I could
distract
>> Turkey and perhaps help you regain Gre (though I doubt that could happen
by
>> Fall unless Philippe helps you). But would you be okay with gaining on
Jason
>> and Philippe in a way that also helps my position?
>
>I might be able to get Philippe to help me.
FWIW, I've suggested to him that he should. Don't know if he's really
listening to me at this point, though.
> As long as it gets us closer to being equals where I can be the fleet
> power and you can be the army power and we eventually DMZ the turkish
> home centers, I can work toward that.
Well, you cooperating with Philippe in Gre makes sense to me regardless of
what you agree to (or don't) with me. I can try to suggest moves to Jason
that make him vulnerable to an attack there. If he were to lose Gre and I
were honk him off, then I would think that would go a long way towards
getting you into that position. It would also make it safer for you to
operate against Philippe -- since that would probably create an AT alliance
that would keep me from seeing gains for a while.
> Well...you are giving him one assuming you keep the pressure on Austria
> and not attacking him.
True, but that's kind of the point of the above statement. If you and
Philippe manage to take Gre (and it kind of doesn't matter who ends up there
from my point of view) then that problem is averted. From my perspective (and
correct me if I'm wrong about this) you don't care if I say that I'm going to
help you do it or not, you'll only believe the actual moves, which will tell
you how I'm going to move for the next few seasons. So I'm not promising you
anything right now, because like last season you have no reason to believe
it. My point is that you and Philippe getting together on Gre is good for you
whether or not there is an RT. And if I know that there is cooperation there,
then I at least have the option to aid it.
>> Is there some history there, or did you
>> both just hit it off really badly in early negotiations?
>
> The latter.
Wow. That's an amazing amount of animosity to create in just pre-01 talks.
I'll be intersted to see what the story is in the press.
>> At this point I'm really not sure what I'm going to do next -- it's too
early
>> in the turn (you can see why I envy your FtF skills).
>
> Please tell me you are kidding....
>
> Berlin works every day.
Well, yes. But that doesn't answer the question of HOW to take it. So maybe
I'm misunderstanding your question. I mean "try to hold my gains and make
sure EF keep fighting" is also what I was thinking, but that doesn't make it
obvious to me how I would go about it, or who if anyone should be stabbed to
get there.
> Well...I will be adding lots to my journal of *what I would do if I were
> Russia and has this positioning*.
I do appreciate this. For me, the value of playing in this game is the
feedback I can get from people critiquing my play, not so much what other
people are going to "learn from me" by observing me. Almost like a
retroactive "teachme" game.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
> > hitting Jason is definitely
> > possible, but you seem to be propped up in bed with him....smoking.
>
> LOL! But I don't smoke.
Its good that you understand my statement.
> > What do I get out of attacking Philippe and/or Jason.
>
> Pretty much what you say you'd need below. And no, I don't expect you to
> attack Philippe now (Fall) that was more a longer-term question.
Ok.
> >> Well, it depends on what you want. There are certainly ways I could
> distract
> >> Turkey and perhaps help you regain Gre (though I doubt that could happen
> by
> >> Fall unless Philippe helps you). But would you be okay with gaining on
> Jason
> >> and Philippe in a way that also helps my position?
> >
> >I might be able to get Philippe to help me.
>
> FWIW, I've suggested to him that he should. Don't know if he's really
> listening to me at this point, though.
He has said that he will.
> > As long as it gets us closer to being equals where I can be the fleet
> > power and you can be the army power and we eventually DMZ the turkish
> > home centers, I can work toward that.
>
> Well, you cooperating with Philippe in Gre makes sense to me regardless of
> what you agree to (or don't) with me.
I agree.
I can try to suggest moves to Jason
> that make him vulnerable to an attack there. If he were to lose Gre and I
> were honk him off, then I would think that would go a long way towards
> getting you into that position.
I also agree.
It would also make it safer for you to
> operate against Philippe -- since that would probably create an AT alliance
> that would keep me from seeing gains for a while.
Probably. But not assured.
> > Well...you are giving him one assuming you keep the pressure on Austria
> > and not attacking him.
>
> True, but that's kind of the point of the above statement. If you and
> Philippe manage to take Gre (and it kind of doesn't matter who ends up there
> from my point of view) then that problem is averted. From my perspective (and
> correct me if I'm wrong about this) you don't care if I say that I'm going to
> help you do it or not, you'll only believe the actual moves, which will tell
> you how I'm going to move for the next few seasons.
Yes, but not quite so thorough.
The moves play out the words, but dont always set in stone the next few
seasons, but certainly point you in the direction I can work with/or not.
So I'm not promising you
> anything right now, because like last season you have no reason to believe
> it. My point is that you and Philippe getting together on Gre is good for you
> whether or not there is an RT. And if I know that there is cooperation there,
> then I at least have the option to aid it.
You should assume cooperation there.
> >> Is there some history there, or did you
> >> both just hit it off really badly in early negotiations?
> >
> > The latter.
>
> Wow. That's an amazing amount of animosity to create in just pre-01 talks.
> I'll be intersted to see what the story is in the press.
The short form is that his opening style hit me all wrong, especially
considering the position I was playing and he defended well.
> >> At this point I'm really not sure what I'm going to do next -- it's too
> early
> >> in the turn (you can see why I envy your FtF skills).
> >
> > Please tell me you are kidding....
> >
> > Berlin works every day.
>
> Well, yes. But that doesn't answer the question of HOW to take it. So maybe
> I'm misunderstanding your question. I mean "try to hold my gains and make
> sure EF keep fighting" is also what I was thinking, but that doesn't make it
> obvious to me how I would go about it, or who if anyone should be stabbed to
> get there.
Who could take MUN or BUD from you?
SER will assuredly support BUD, and there are 2 friendly units on Munich.
Germany and France will never work together.
SIL - BER supported by Baltic
> > Russia and has this positioning*.
>
> I do appreciate this. For me, the value of playing in this game is the
> feedback I can get from people critiquing my play, not so much what other
> people are going to "learn from me" by observing me. Almost like a
> retroactive "teachme" game.
No problem....
And the one thing you keep mentioning is dead on true.
My FtF experience lets me look at the board and make an assesment in about
20 seconds.
Andy
Message from Germany to Russia
> Ber-Bal-Den
> Hol-Kie (Mun S)
I assume you mean ruh - kie.
> I have no idea what France is up to, but even if he taps Mun, there's
still a
good chance that you'll end up in Kie and Den. The question I haven't looked
at myself is whether that's good position for going forward. What's your
take?>
I am not sure BER - DEN would work. I think BER - KIE would. It all sounds
very fancy. Ben may use three units to take HOL but he only needs two. ENG
can cut BEL support whilst KIE and HEL take HOL. NTH could then cover DEN.
The NTH is not threatend so he has nothing to lose by mocing NTH to DEN,
there is only one unit (yours) on it. With a build he just builds a new
fleet. He then has TWO on BAL.
I believe BER - KIE supported by BAL and MUN has the best chance of working.
Even if England takes HOL (which he can only do from KIE to be sure then I
slip into KIE and you slip into BER. England gets no build. You have three.
I dont mind surviving as one unit, it will give me reason to diplome and
vent my thoughts.
As I said I prefer someone to solo than several to share a draw if I am not
in it. You can destroy me at your leasure.
I would like to see england denied a build. France wont PROD at MUN or RUH.
I have told him I will be supporting HOL. Anyway he needs BUR - PAR.
My moves are in, ber - kie ruh s hol. If BER - DEN had any chance then I
would have gone for it just for the show.
Tony
Message from Russia to Austria
> Just so we're clear, you'r ok with getting Ser instead of Bud?
Well, I'll be as explicit as I can in response. I honestly would prefer to
have Ser instead of Bud, because I think it would piss you off less. What is
that IA move -- the Blue something Lepanto, where Italy moves Ven-Tri-Ser and
continue to cooperate? That's what I'd like to do here.
However, to expose all of my selfishness and paranoia, Bud-Ser is a much more
dangerous move for me for all sorts of obvious reasons (tell me if they are
not obvious, I'm not trying to be cryptic). From a security point of view I
would *much* prefer to have Bud support you to Ser and then just have it as a
fait accompli that you are going to retake Bud next season There is
absolutely nothing I can do to stop you, and if I attacked Jason (directly or
by supporting you) I don't see that your army would be in any danger. You
don't think he'd accept my support of Bul-Ser right after I helped you
disband his army in Ser, do you?
So my strong request and large preference is that I support you to Ser, and
hand over Bud next season. I know it represents me taking advantage of your
moves, but it DOES allow us to work together, and allows us both some
assurance. Yes I could stab you and not support, but frankly, I don't need to
lie to you to do that. With RT forces, there's too few units to allow you to
take Bud back if Ser supports it, so Tri-Ser makes sense to try to cut
support for Gre in any case.
If we did this and you end up in Gre, you would be able to build in Tri, and
my army Bud can move out and help you (because again, resistance would be
futile). This is essentially the plan I argued for last season: I move
forward to help you bring pressure, but you get the gains in the Balkans over
both Andy and Jason. I just want to see some forward progress come out of the
AR cooperation.
Finally, as to Andy: I think you can cooperate with him in Fall. He claims
that at this point he will not attack you until he can be sure that RT is not
going to roll him over. I believe that will not attack you this Fall, because
that helps my position too much. I also believe that he will cooperate with
you against Turkey this Fall (though you two will have to work out who moves
and who supports if you try to take Gre).
Now I will be completely honest: his logic for asking me to attack Turkey is
to make him free to attack you (well, you AND Turkey). So my guess is he
gives you a free pass this season, then when he sees you and I attack Turkey,
he will probably think that he "controlled" us both and that he'll be able to
manipulate us into attacking each other next year. So I think we could take
Ser and still be in a position to take Andy by surprise next season.
I'm sure this is waaay too long, but I'm trying to be clear that what I am
arguing for now is completely consistent with what I was trying to negotiate
(and failed to acheive) in Spring: that we both press south, and keep Andy
stunted or get you centers from him as we cooperate against Jason. Even the
move to Bud is consistent with the arguments I made -- even though it was
definitely not pro-Austria -- given your stated intent to support Turkey for
show in Fall. I am not changing my desires on you, I am just trying to keep
things moving in the direction I've been arguing for all along.
Back to the original question of would I accept Ser instead of Bud? Well, the
move makes me much more nervous than giving you Bud, so I'd be much more
enthusiastic to support you there. Obviously, I'd rather convince you that it
makes more sense for you to take Ser (which I think is true). But if it comes
out that you are only willing to cooperate if I take Ser, then I'm not going
to try to force your hand because I just don't have the leverage. But you can
count on more messages trying to convince you that you taking Ser is the
right way to go if that happens.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
[For later consumption]
> Who could take MUN or BUD from you?
Well, if I try to take Ber, you and France could. I expect that you see this,
but just in case I'm not replying to you directly.
> And the one thing you keep mentioning is dead on true.
>
> My FtF experience lets me look at the board and make an assesment in
> about 20 seconds.
My assessment is colored so much by diplomatic "threat levels" that I have
difficulty making the board reads. In no-press (and I've only played chaos)
it's a little easier, but if full press I can't assess the board until I know
things like: Will Turkey be willing to take Rum without support, allowing
Rum-Bul, Ser-Arm? That affects how I view the threat from AI. Will Germany be
pissed that I didn't support him to Kie? That affects whether I treat Ruh as
hostile, friendly or neutral. Same question for France and Bur. How does
Philippe react to Bud? Once I start to get a read on that, then I can get a
sense of what makes sense to me.
But that's just me.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
You are probably right. I appreciate the analysis. Yes, I did mean Ruh-Kie. I
will order in accordance with what you've suggested. Agreed, I could just
take Ber, but I think you are correct, that it's better positionally to have
an extra friendly army there (and I do appreciate your advice, too).
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Russia
>I could just take Ber, but I think you are correct, that it's better
positionally to have
an extra friendly army there (and I do appreciate your advice, too).<
Good to hear, where there is life there is hope.
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Ok, I've begun to look at the map.
Good lord, you lucked right into MUN, didn't you.
The first thing I notice when I look at the map is, REF, working together,
could convoy your A NWY to NAF.
The second thing is, concerning your proposal for MUN - KIE. Let us listen
to Tony's threats/lies & try to pick out the truth. It's a tricky
situation, and I'd be loathe to look back on it and say, you shot an
innocent English dot when you were aiming at the evil German dot.
Ben
Message from Russia to Germany
Here's another question for you:
What do you think about the idea of me NOT taking Ber? That is, Ruh S Hol,
Ber-Kie, and maybe Sil S Mun or somesuch. That leaves you with two armies.
I'd ask you to push west with them (which would probably mean eventually
giving up Kie in exchange for Hol/Bel or somesuch), but A Ruh is much more
advanced than A Ber is which is good for me. And for you it's keeping two
units instead of being reduced to one. In Spring we could go with something
like Mun S Ruh-Bur. The only question for me is how likely you think it is
that Ruh is going to be disbanded. If you've truly offered to support Hol for
Erik, I can see that he might not go that route, but I'd like your take on
how likely that is.
Let me know what you think; you seem to have a good feel for the situation
there.
Have a good weekend.
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
Hey Eric,
Glad to see the turn went well. The Rum plan sounds good. I'll probably
stay put in Aeg to cover the eastern Med - Andy's got his hands full in
the west.
jason
Message from Germany to Russia
Well I explained to France why I cut support from HOL. I pointed out that it
wasnt anti-french. I explained that I thought that he and Ben were working
together and that he would support KIE. The moves obviously proved they
wernt working together.
I find it very unlikely that he will attack RUH. Ben is attacking him, even
if he doent believe that I will support him he surely will be hoping I do. I
just dont want Ben getting a build. This can be achievd in two way, I
support HOL (but he could still take HOL as BEL can be cut. Secondly I
ensure I take KIE, if Ben does get HOL then he loses KIE.
In other wors I could use RUH to support BER - KIE. This along with BAL
support will ensure I get KIE.
If you and Ben are on one line then you could convince him to go for HOL
using KIE and support from NTH and HEL.
This still allows me to take KIE and you could push BAL - DEN. But how did
he explain not accepting your support to KIE last turn? Let me know if I
have to support BER - KIE or help support HOL.
You not taking BER and leaving me with two units obviously has my
preference. My units could indeed be pushed forward and keep momentum going.
I can only once again wait and see. What do you think the chances are of Ben
ordering HEL s KIE, KIE s NTH - HOL?
Using BAL to support BER - KIE I believe gives us the best chance of
success.
Tony
Message from Russia to Germany
> I find it very unlikely that he will attack RUH.
I tend to agree, but wanted your opinion.
> Ben is attacking him, even
> if he doent believe that I will support him he surely will be hoping I do.
> I just dont want Ben getting a build.
Understood.
> This can be achievd in two way, I
> support HOL (but he could still take HOL as BEL can be cut. Secondly I
> ensure I take KIE, if Ben does get HOL then he loses KIE.
I think this will be the outcome regardless. Given his Spring moves, he kind
of has to trust me for Fall, doesn't he? I wouldn't be surprised if he
requests Bal-Kie or Mun-Kie to try to hold Kie while gaining Hol.
The real question for us is whether it is better to have Bel/Hol both be
French, or be split F/E. If you are looking for me to do well, then I think
the latter is more important. It really depends on whether you want to punish
England or both of them.
> In other wors I could use RUH to support BER - KIE. This along with BAL
> support will ensure I get KIE.
This makes sense. Though I haven't heard from Erik yet, so can't comment on
what I'm hearing he'll do. But if we want Bel/Hol split, then obviuosly you
should not support Hol. We'll see.
> If you and Ben are on one line then you could convince him to go for HOL
> using KIE and support from NTH and HEL.
I already have suggested it. I just don't know if it's coming.
> This still allows me to take KIE and you could push BAL - DEN.
I thought about this. It's certainly safer than Ber-Bal-Den.
> But how did he explain not accepting your support to KIE last turn?
He didn't need to. I offered to support it because anything that got him out
of Den was a good thing. When the move went late he waffled (got very
uncertain) about what he was going to do, and I told him the support was
ordered and he could take it or not. Frankly, since I would have been happy
to see you take Kie, I didn't even ask why he chose that.
> Let me know if I have to support BER - KIE or help support HOL.
I'm leaning towards the former, but again, I want to know what you think is
better for us in Bel/Hol.
> You not taking BER and leaving me with two units obviously has my
> preference. My units could indeed be pushed forward and keep momentum
> going.
Not surprising! No promises at this point, but if I feel like I can leave you
Ber (meaning that I don't need the build myself) then I will most certainly
do it. I have no desire to see you lose units at this point.
> I can only once again wait and see. What do you think the chances are of
> Ben ordering HEL s KIE, KIE s NTH - HOL?
I would be stunned, especially because I told him right after the moves that
I expected you to move Ber-Kie again.
> Using BAL to support BER - KIE I believe gives us the best chance of
> success.
Probably. But I could also order Mun S Ber-Kie too. Isn't Ruh/Mun S Ber-Kie
pretty solid too? This of course assumes that Ben successfully takes Hol.
Last thing I want to do is retreat him to Bal! Ben goes down one, you would
stay even (Ber/Kie), and I'm in position to cut support for Hol in the
Spring, allowing Ruh-Hol with support.
Anyway, let me know what you think.
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Russia
Hi Erik, yes I keep forgetting about MUN. It cant move so if it does support
ber - kie along with ruh support then that is enough. That still leaves you
free to push at DEN!
You are guranteed two builds no matter what (MUN/BUD) so I am hoping you
leave me BER.
Anyway my moves are BER - KIE, RUH S BER - KIE. If MUN supports the efoort
then all should go well.
It will be interesting to see if BAL - DEN works. I hope you dont turn
paranoid and think that I will go for MUN using both units. I gurantee you I
am not. Ben is the one to suffer, rather a solo than a draw without me.
To bad you didnt go with me last time as it would have been devestating,
lets make up for it this turn.
tony
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I've got to run, but wanted to drop a line. Tony is telling me (and Erik, in
joint press) that he's going to move Ber-Kie and support Hol with Ruh. If
that's the case, I should probably move Mun-Ruh to cut support and probably
move Bal-Kie to bounce Ber-Kie (this is assuming he's telling me the truth --
let me know if you don't want this). It also means that you'll need to move
Kie-Hol, Hel S Kie-Hol and Nth will have to support Hol or tap Bel if I've
got the right map in my head.
I cannot imagine that he will not tap Kie -- but even if he chooses Ruh S
Ber-Kie or Ber S Ruh-Kie I think my suggestions would still work. The only
thing that could go wrong is if he holds in Ber.
The other downside is that given that I'd be using Bal and Mun on your
behalf, I won't be able to get rid of Ber yet. But I think that only means
that next year I'll have to use at least one of Mun or Bal on that task
(while also keeping Kie yours). But with Hol gone that should be quite
doable.
Let me know what you think, but I'll be away, so don't expect an immediate
response.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Quick response -
Thanks for the information about the group press. I don't doubt it's what he'll do & your proposal looks a suitable response.
Good luck & have a good trip(?). We'll write more on your return.
Ben
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
Awesome. I'm hoping you'll also order support for Bud (Ser S Bud). I'm trying
to convince Philippe not to attack me because it's useless (since Ser can
support Bud), but I'd feel a lot more comfortable knowing that I'm guaranteed
to hold it through the Fall!
And on an another comment of yours -- you shouldn't be too surprised that I
had heard something from Philippe about your plans. Remember that the year
before he had also told me about supporting you to Ser. (And the year before
that, it sounded like he told Andy about your move to Gre, right?) Still, our
taking Bud may have changed how willing he is to talk -- for the moment at
least.
I'll be away for the weekend, so don't be surprised that you don't hear
anything more from me until late Sunday or Monday.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to all
The holiday season is upon me in about half an hour when I will be leaving
for this year's family get togethers.
The conditions in the gathering place are so primitive that neither a TiVo
nor a network connection is available, so unless someone wants to call me on
the phone (and there is no answering machine there either!) I will not be
available for negotiations until I return late Sunday or early Monday.
Happy (early) holidays everyone!
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
> It will be interesting to see if BAL - DEN works. I hope you dont turn
> paranoid and think that I will go for MUN using both units.
I won't. First off, if EFG team up against me, I'm gone. Second, if Sil does
not tap Ber (which is still my leaning) it will probably support Mun anyway.
Not attacking Ben was not because I was worried about you. It just didn't
make sense to get him angry (by supporting you) when he was moving away from
me anyway.
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Russia
>>Second, if Sil does not tap Ber (which is still my leaning) it will
probably support Mun anyway>>
Then have it support MUN, else you will end up in BE if I make it to KIE.
Message from Turkey to Russia
Sounds good, then. No change over here.
jason
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
I've been trying my hardest to get England to back down a bit, but I'm not
sure what he's really going to do. Obviously, I'd be extremely grateful if
you could find a way to get me into Munich and / or put some pressure on
him through Scandanavia.
Meanwhile, down south, what do you think is going to happen? Italy was
hopping mad with me, but if Turkey's going to keep coming at him, that's
not so much a concern.
I'll be around all day tomorrow. Please write when you get a chance.
Erik
Message from Austria to Russia
Eric,
I haven't had much time, but I can assure you
that I'm not going to try for Ser himself. So,
let's go with my suggestion instead. As for
Andy, I still have to check with him regarding
his fleets movements.
Philippe
Message from Austria to all
Hi all,
I don't know for the rest of you, but I'm not going to be
available from the december 24 to sometime after
january first because of the holydays, so an extension of
the next dl to january 6 would be appreciated.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year in advance,
Philippe
Message from Austria to Russia
> I haven't had much time, but I can assure you
> that I'm not going to try for Ser himself. So,
wrote this too quickly, should read: try for Ser
"myself" instead. Must really be getting tired!
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Thanks for the clarification. Your first message had me mystified. :)
Can you explain why you moving to Ser is unacceptable? I understand that you
don't want to lose a home SC, and I can believe that you don't really trust
me to give it back, (though as I've noted, I'm not going to have a choice in
that), but I'd like to understand your thinking.
I've got to run to a meeting, so I'm going to keep this message short. I'll
be back this afternoon.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
I told you I've been trying to convince Philippe not to attack Bud. One of
the possibilities he raised is trying to attack Ser. One of the things he's
talked to me about is using Bud to attack Ser. If I remember right, you said
you are not going to be moving F Aeg. If that's true, what do you think about
you ordering Aeg S Gre and Bul S Ser? If you do that, I can "attack" Ser and
we'll know it won't work. We could also say that me moving out of Rum was to
let me get A Sev there (Sev-Ukr-Rum) and you taking it is a stab. That would
make it look like we were fighting, which might make it easier for one or the
other of us to get information about how AI are going to move.
I can't tell if this is too complicated or not, but I wanted to get your take
on. When Austria raised the idea, I thought maybe it was a chance to keep our
moves from getting him too pissed off at us because of the Spring moves. :)
And you have also ordered Ser S Bud, right? (I saw all of your messages, but
they say "sounds good", but it's not 100% clear what you were saying sounds
good!
Let me know. I won't order anything "nasty" with Bud until/unless I hear from
you that it's okay.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> Can you explain why you moving to Ser is unacceptable? I understand that you
> don't want to lose a home SC, and I can believe that you don't really trust
> me to give it back, (though as I've noted, I'm not going to have a choice in
> that), but I'd like to understand your thinking.
My concern are even more short term. Tri-Ser exposed
me too much to try it after having been dislodged from
Bud.
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Welcome back.
Let me know if you have a sense of the destination of F MAO.
Ben
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
I really do understand your concern, since it's basically the same as mine.
If you move, then your unit is in danger from RI or RT cooperation. If I
move, then Tri and Vie can coordinate to oust me. And you justly feel that
since I was the one that violated your trust, I should be the one to take the
risk. The thing that makes it difficult for me is that if we don't come to
any agreement, then in theory I do as well as if we do (it's one center for
me either way). That's why I was hoping you'd be willing to risk being the
mover, and why I'm being unusually pushy about asking for it.
Again, my thinking with Tri-Ser is that next year you would be able to press
to Bul and possibly Gre. But let's assume that I am the mover. If I move
Bud-Ser in Fall, how would you want to cooperate next year? With me in Ser
and you in Tri/Vie, how would we press forward?
As I've said several times now, and you are probably sick of hearing by now,
I really want to cooperate with you. I just want to be sure that what we're
doing is actually leading to cooperation that can be ongoing.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
MAO? There's a fleet in MAO? :)
I've just heard very briefly from France, and it's all been about whether or
not I can loan him Mun. If I hear anything I will let you know, but I'm a
little worried about asking about it straight out -- it might seem a little
suspicious.
BTW, the football gods seem to have smiled on you this weekend. Your team is
again in control of their own destiny, which is always a good thing.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
> I've been trying my hardest to get England to back down a bit, but I'm not
> sure what he's really going to do.
Well, clearly he's telling me that he's going after you, since what else
would he say. My guess, though, is that he's telling the truth, since his
moves last season more or less require him to follow through with the attack
for at least one more season.
> Obviously, I'd be extremely grateful if
> you could find a way to get me into Munich and / or put some pressure on
> him through Scandanavia.
Well, in talking with Tony I'm a little more worried about the former
(getting you into Mun). What's he telling you he's going to be doing with
Ruh? I know he said in shared press that he was supporting Hol, but I'm
wondering if maybe he's going to try to retake Mun. That would allow England
to expand against you (which is good for him) and would rid him of an army
that you have threatening him. So I'm afraid that even if I try to get you
into Mun that we may just end up helping him (with a 2-2 bounce, he'd hold
the center). However, I should be able to put pressure on Ben in Scandinavia.
If I'dve known he was really going after you, I could have kept A Swe, but I
didn't think I could risk letting a fleet into Nwy with no units covering
StP!
> Meanwhile, down south, what do you think is going to happen? Italy was
> hopping mad with me, but if Turkey's going to keep coming at him, that's
> not so much a concern.
I think that AI are really poorly matched personalities that have trouble
getting along. The cooperation that I've had with Jason are making them
seriously consider cooperation -- which would mean Andy being free to head
west. (Andy has already dropped hints to me that this is his plan.) So
anything you can do with Philippe to get him more nervous about Andy and keep
an AI from forming is going to be good for both of us.
I think this (keeping AI from cooling their differences) is the biggest thing
we can do. I can distract Ben in the north fairly easily, but I can't
distract Andy directly -- I have to do that through Philippe and Jason.
Clearly I've peeved off Philippe, and I don't know if I'm going to be able to
mend that fence. I will try to ensure that Jason keeps pressing Andy. Do you
have any conversations with Jason? Do you have any reason to believe he's
*not* going to press Andy further?
> I'll be around all day tomorrow. Please write when you get a chance.
Sorry it took so long!
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> MAO? There's a fleet in MAO? :)
:-o
> I've just heard very briefly from France, and it's all been
> about whether or
> not I can loan him Mun. If I hear anything I will let you
> know, but I'm a
> little worried about asking about it straight out -- it might
> seem a little suspicious.
I need to know whether you will be loaning him MUN. I am guessing you are
not, but please confirm. I would be pleased to see BUR - MUN, though.
No of course you should not ask him outright.
> BTW, the football gods seem to have smiled on you this
> weekend. Your team is
> again in control of their own destiny, which is always a good thing.
:-) We shot ourselves in the foot a few times this season, most notably
against the fine Raiders of Oakland, in which game we gave up 10 points to
the Raiders on exactly one (1) yard of offense to begin the contest. Peeyu.
But that (a) we should beat the snot out of Cleveland while (b) Cincinnati
loses away against a tough St. Louis team, is hardly a smile from the
football gods, it's just the tail end of the season's schedule playing
pretty much the way we expected. Our schedule wound down easier than
theirs. Big game Sunday night vs. Pittsburgh coming up.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> I need to know whether you will be loaning him MUN. I am guessing you
> are not, but please confirm. I would be pleased to see BUR - MUN,
> though.
I was thinking that Munich looks nice in grey. It's much truer to it's
original color of black than the French light blue units. So no, I was not
planning on giving up Mun, though seeing France move Bur-Mun is not out of
the question either. If I'm not mistaken you still want me to move Mun-Ruh,
so realistically I cannot guarantee that I'll hold Mun if Tony and Erik team
up, but that seems unlikely. Outside of that, I'd have a hard time actually
giving up Mun to Erik, since I can't help dislodge my own unit in Mun, and
there's really nowhere for that unit to go voluntarily!
And my apologies if I insulted you by indicating that there was some sort of
providence involved with the Ravens beating the Browns. But then again, it is
not clear that any team that loses to Raiders isn't getting some divine
intervention when they win. :)
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> > I need to know whether you will be loaning him MUN. I am guessing you
> > are not, but please confirm. I would be pleased to see BUR - MUN,
> > though.
>
> I was thinking that Munich looks nice in grey. It's much truer to it's
> original color of black than the French light blue units. So no, I was not
> planning on giving up Mun, though seeing France move Bur-Mun is not out of
> the question either. If I'm not mistaken you still want me to move
Mun-Ruh,
> so realistically I cannot guarantee that I'll hold Mun if Tony and Erik
team
> up, but that seems unlikely. Outside of that, I'd have a hard time
actually
> giving up Mun to Erik, since I can't help dislodge my own unit in Mun, and
> there's really nowhere for that unit to go voluntarily!
Ok. This is pretty much what I'd thought.
> And my apologies if I insulted you by indicating that there was some sort
of
> providence involved with the Ravens beating the Browns. But then again,
it is
> not clear that any team that loses to Raiders isn't getting some divine
> intervention when they win. :)
Don't be too modest! I see them giving Green Bay all they can handle! Oh,
nevermind, my mistake. That was Brett Favre. I'd thought it was Rick
Mirer.
Ben
Message from Turkey to Russia
Sorry for not being specific. Ser will support Bud this turn. If you
want to bounce Austria in Ser, that's fine, but Gre needs to move, so
Bul won't be available.
jason
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Follow up on a point I wanted to be clear:
> > the question either. If I'm not mistaken you still want me to move
> Mun-Ruh,
Yes I do.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from Russia to Russia
Well, I'm still unsure what I want to do. Oddly, I while I really do expect
to see an AIT against me, I am a lot less worried about the moves than I have
been the last few turns. Maybe it's the vacation upcoming at work!
As much as I want to move against Turkey, I don't think I can afford to. As I
see it, that would cement a whole-board alliance against me. I can move
against Ben and if Turkey is still strong, it should keep Erik onside,
especially if he accepts that I can't give him Mun. So I think it looks like
actually handing over Rum (Damn! The whole "you can have Rum" story was on
the assumption I'd never actually give it up!) to Jason, and hoping to keep
IT fighting, attacking Ben (sorry Ben! I really don't want to, but with Tony
apparently working for me, I don't see how I can't), and trying to keep Bud
from Philippe. Too bad. I had really hoped to work with Philippe, but what I
said to him was true -- I'm not willing to hold off on attacking him
(Philippe) if it's not going to advance my position somewhere else.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
I should also note that Philippe and I not working together is clearly all my
fault. I knew that pressing him on Ser vs. Bud was unlikely to be successful,
but I tried anyway. He has not shown a propensity to discuss moves in the
detail I was pressing for, and he has not shown an interest in switching from
his first choice of moves. If I really wanted to be daring, I'd have agreed
to take his support for Bud-Ser, and would have added Rum-Bul, Sev-Arm. I may
be being too conservative by not risking it.
Thoughts from the observers?
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> Again, my thinking with Tri-Ser is that next year you would be able to press
> to Bul and possibly Gre. But let's assume that I am the mover. If I move
> Bud-Ser in Fall, how would you want to cooperate next year? With me in Ser
> and you in Tri/Vie, how would we press forward?
>
> As I've said several times now, and you are probably sick of hearing by now,
> I really want to cooperate with you. I just want to be sure that what we're
> doing is actually leading to cooperation that can be ongoing.
I don't have much time and I don't care to elaborate game
long strategy with someone who just took over part of my
homeland. If you really want to work with me, I'm sure a
way can be found to make it happen, the most obvious
being attacking Turkey in the Balkans and at home while
Italy is ousted of Venice with Munich's help.
Anyway, I guess Bud will tell me how much you want to
work with me.
Philippe
Message from Russia to Austria
Clearly I'm annoying you and I'm sorry about that. My understanding from last
season was that you were unwilling to talk about attacking Turkey if it had a
chance of giving Andy room to grow. As I've tried to explain, that was the
only reason I moved as I did.
I'm not trying to get you to divulge your gamelong plan, I'm just trying to
understand how we'd cooperate if you were not willing to work against Turkey.
Your last message implies that you are not averse to working against Turkey,
which is a lot of what I have been trying to figure out. Remember it was you
that pointed out how odd it would be for me to figure out your goals given
that you are aiding RT.
So does this mean you are ordering Tri S Bud-Ser?
--- Eric
Austria: Fleet Albania SUPPORT Italian Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece
Austria: Army Trieste → Budapest (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Vienna SUPPORT Army Trieste → Budapest
England: Fleet English Channel → Belgium
England: Fleet Helgoland Bight SUPPORT Fleet Kiel → Holland
England: Fleet Irish Sea → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
England: Fleet Kiel → Holland
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet English Channel → Belgium
France: Army Belgium SUPPORT Army Holland (*cut, dislodged*)
France: Army Burgundy → Munich (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Gulf of Lyon → Western Mediterranean (*bounce*)
France: Army Holland SUPPORT English Fleet Kiel (*void, destroyed*)
France: Army Marseilles → Piedmont
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Brest
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) SUPPORT Fleet Gulf of Lyon → Western Mediterranean
Germany: Army Berlin → Kiel
Germany: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Berlin → Kiel
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece
Italy: Army Rome → Tuscany
Italy: Fleet Tunis → Western Mediterranean (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Tyrolia → Trieste (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea SUPPORT Fleet Tunis → Western Mediterranean
Russia: Fleet Baltic Sea → Denmark
Russia: Army Budapest HOLD
Russia: Army Munich SUPPORT German Army Berlin → Kiel (*cut*)
Russia: Army Norway → Sweden
Russia: Fleet Rumania → Sevastopol
Russia: Army Sevastopol → Ukraine
Russia: Army Silesia SUPPORT Army Munich
Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea → Eastern Mediterranean
Turkey: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Bulgaria → Rumania
Turkey: Army Bulgaria → Rumania
Turkey: Fleet Greece → Aegean Sea
Turkey: Army Serbia SUPPORT Russian Army Budapest
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