|
|
Message from Germany to Russia
> You said something about it never being too late to make amends. I agree
with that philosophy, but I'm honestly at a loss for how we can do that
right now. If you have any specific ideas I'm open to suggestions.>
Well I have spoken to France, he is interested in moving on IRI. This would take some pressure off you.
He would consider the move a likely option if he was sure that England did not receive a build.
I always play the board as is, an enemy one day is an ally the next. I look for a win/win situation.
I can retake Denmark with your help. In return you receive an ally who is of no real threat.
With France in IRI and pushing SPA - MAO and building in BRE England will be forced to return and defend his home sc's. This gives you the break you need in Scandinavia.
If I get DEN back then I can help you. If you push Norway to Sweden and help support HEL to DEN and somehow convince England that you will support him to KIE (with help from NTH cutting HELand BAL supporting DEN - KIE) then his fleet in SKA can push for DEN. Offer him two builds off me. He ends up with none.
France gets to keep Holland, pushes for IRI (as you have convinced him that England wont get a build) and he builds a fleet in BRE. Your gain is that England doesnt go for Scandinavia and i cant hurt you and France is piling on the pressure in England. France will go for it if he is convinced England doesnt build. You dont lose Norway and England sdoesnt build two units. I suggest therefor SWE - NWY, SIL - PRU, BAL S HEL - DEN. This sets you up to convoy to Sweden next spring. I would also be willing to push DEN to SKA and let your fleet pass through Denmark in the spring so that we could get three fleets (EGR) on NTH for the fall move instead if need be.
Talk to France and let me know.
> I thought about using your password to submit favorable orders, but decided
> that was a bad idea. :) (That is completely a joke -- I would not do that even if I thought I could
> get away with it.)>
hahahahaha, I wasn't amazed I messed up in yahoo groups. It's the second time this month. I did the same in pinnacle-d. I have changed all passwords just to make sure. I always use the same one for all games (13 at the moment) so I had a lot of set passwords to submit. I trust the community fully and no one would indeed try it.
Funny though the mistakes that happen. The worst I hate most is getting the enbroadcast/broadcast wrong and powers receiving press they shouldnt. I now ensure I send seperate press to prevent this happening again.
Another blunder I make is sending to the wrong power. Playing 13 games where all press is usually sent around the same time is a little confusing sometimes.
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
you are going to ARM this season....right?
Message from Austria to Russia
> But overall, either way I went you wouldn't have been happy, because I was
> clearly looking out for myself at your expense, which is what motivated my
> original statement of not blaming you for your moves. I probably would have
> done something similar in your shoes.
Should I expect more of the same from you this fall?
Philippe
Message from Russia to Austria
>> But overall, either way I went you wouldn't have been happy, because I was
>> clearly looking out for myself at your expense, which is what motivated my
>> original statement of not blaming you for your moves. I probably would
have
>> done something similar in your shoes.
>
>Should I expect more of the same from you this fall?
Well, if you decide you want me to take Vie, then yes. :)
It looks to me like attacking you is only going to aid Andy. While that was
my intent last season, for the reasons I've explained previously. I have no
desire to see him do better than he has against you. Were I in Rum with my
army, I would be offering to support you back into Ser. With the fleet there,
it's not an option, so I'm not sure what we can do to directly coordinate. Do
you have any ideas? The most obvious thing to me would be for you to ask
Jason to support you into Ser, but I don't think he's going to be willing to
do that -- he's too sure that Andy's not going to contest Gre. Again, if you
are interested in Jason taking Ser, I will try to convince him. I'm just not
confident it's going to happen.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
> you are going to ARM this season....right?
If you examine my moves for the last two seasons, I think you can see that
planning on me making sound tactical moves on my own is dangerous assumption.
Can you spell out the picture you are imagining in greater detail?
Specifically, are you planning to support me to Bud from Ser? If I had the
army in Rum as anticipated I'd suggest trying for Bul from Rum, but without a
fleet to tap Bla, that won't succeed. Are you going to take Aeg or Eas and
Ion? Etc.
Thanks,
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Your suggestions sound fantastic to me. I could even imagine having you move
Ber-Sil with support so that I can disband A War (which I shouldn't have
built in the first place) and rebuild it as F StP/nc. Though that may be too
much to ask of you at this point, since then you might worry that I'd try to
walk into Ber. (I don't think that's in my best interests right now, but I
don't think there's any reason for you to trust me on that).
So I like your plan. Let me talk to England and see what I can find out from
him, too.
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Russia
Good to hear. I am sure if you sell to England that you too are a little
worried abot France and that I may throw my SC's to him you will get
Englands attention. Say that you have offered to support HOL - KIE from BAL
and that you will cut support from BER. Tell him instead of supporting the
frenchman in you will support DEN - KIE. Ask him to cut support from HEL.
This means that he can safely move SKA - DEN thus getting two builds off me
without making you an enemy. I am sure he is more than willing to have you
as an ally. He must be worried of an FR alliance right now.
Dont forget to talk to France regarding the alliance against England. Make
it clear to him that England gaining two builds off you and me is as bad for
France as it is for you.
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Germany is showing some serious interest in working with you and I to take
out England. Granted, you can't trust Tony one whit, but he's not stupid,
either: he's got three powers bearing down on him and no local friends. If
he can use us to get out of his hole, he will. In return, we might have an
opportunity to finish off England and resume the grind against Germany.
Essentially, he'll probably want support against Den from you and a move to
Iri by me (and may also want me to abandon Hol, but let's see if we can
avoid that). What do you think?
I'll have patchy access over the holidays, but I'll write when I can.
Erik
Message from Russia to France
Well, as I said, that's why I was so hopeful that he'd jump on one of those
other plans. Alas.
From what Germany tells me, you've talked to him about MAO-Iri. In exchange,
he's approached me about trying to tie Ben up going for Kie. My plan is to
tell Ben that I've offered support (which I won't provide) to Tony for one of
Hel-Den or Kie-Den, so that we "know" how to react (e.g., if Tony "wants"
Hel-Den, then Nth S Ska-Den is the right move, whereas if Tony "wants"
Kie-Den then Ska-Den/Nth-Hel is the right move (because if Hel S Kie-Den,
Den-Kie fails unless Hel's support is cut). I think it is more likely that
Hel-Den will be believable, but frankly, I don't care what Ben chooses, so
long as it isn't Nth/Ska-Nwy!
I think this has a lot of opportunity to be successful, but it's got to be
done really carefully. We both need to interact with Ben normally, and we may
not want it to be clear to Tony how closely you and I are talking.
I'll send a three way congratulating us on the success, and laying out these
thoughts for all of us to consider together. Anything you can do to convince
Ben that because I won't be getting any builds this season, he shouldn't need
to take Nwy until after he's got Kie/Den will be appreciated. If you hear
that he is going after Nwy, please let me know so that we can try to counter
him (I could support A Kie-Den, and see if Tony will order Hel-Nth). That
way, even if he gets Nwy, the loss of Nth will hurt him enough to make it
impossible for him to continue to press Scandinavia if he wants to defend his
homeland.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
Did you say that you were actually *at* the game last Sunday? That would have
been amazing. I'm going to the game this Sunday (Broncos at Raiders). Given
how things have been going, I think maybe they have a shot to win the game.
We'll see.
---------------
The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you ending
up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season). Tony's move
of Den-Swe is actually somewhat comforting to me, because it means that you
cannot immediately take two off of me if you are leaning towards turning
north. While I'm very happy with the level of dialog we've had, and I've
already made the moves/builds that make it clear that I'm hoping for an ER
going forward, I was nonetheless worried by the fact that you weren't willing
to clear out of Ska this Spring.
On the other hand, given Tony's move, it turns out that it was important for
you to have both units in place if you still want to go for Kie and Den. We
will need to make a guess as to how Tony is going to defend. He can try to
retake Den with Hel-Den or Hel S Kie-Den. I can probably influence or divine
Tony's move choices by offering to support one or the other (Bal S Hel-Den or
Bal S Kie-Den), if we think he's liable to believe that I'd really offer the
support and tell me the truth about what he's up to. (As I left this in my
drafts folder, I see that I now have press asking for support for Hel-Den).
I'm hoping taking Den with Ska is acceptable to you, since it will make my
life going forward much more comfortable. I would guess that Nth-Hel would
make Erik happier (that is, me offering to support Kie-Den for Tony), because
it has a chance to help him if Tony tries to defend Hol instead of Hel, but
that seems the less likely move from Tony.
Let me know what you think, or if you see any other options.
Happy turkey day eve,
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Thanks for all the advice in your last message. I have already started down
several of the paths you have suggested. Luckily, I had previously promised
England that I would support Den-Kie in Fall, so hopefully he'll still want
to go through with it.
I took a slightly different approach than you suggested in discussing moves:
I asked England which move he thinks we need to cover (Hel S Kie-Den, or Kie
S Hel-Den). I think we're okay in either case. As long as he moves Den then
Kie S Hel-Den, Bal S Hel-Den and Hel-Den would overwhelm Nth S Ska-Den (or
Ska S Nth-Den). But you are right, I probably should have suggested that he
tap Hel and see what he says.
I've also asked France to tip me off if he hears about England coming after
me. If that happens, I may ask you to tap Nth while I order Bal S Kie-Den.
That should still get you Den (unless he orders Ska S Den), and will either
keep England from building, or will get you Nth, either of which are big
advantages.
On the topic of misdirected press, I am ALWAYS paranoid about doing that.
I've been lucky so far, though I did send a message that I intended for
someone in this game to a player who had the same power in another game. Much
better than the other way around though: I know at least a couple of people
in my other games are observers of this one -- sending you press intended for
a Germany in one of those games would be essentially broadcasting it by
mistake! Every second or third letter I send I have that "Oh <bleep>! Did I
address that to the right player?" kind of panic.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
After starting it, I decided a three way may or may not make sense. I haven't
initiated it yet.
I think you should hit Iri regardless. I think there is a very good chance
we'll get Ben off guard, and if he takes Sca, then his builds can come after
you with impunity he's not going to expect to get much of a slice of Germany,
you have no real fleet power at this time, and Andy's building. Andy does not
stop talking to me about how he wants to build and head west, especially
after your fleet build. Basically, I'm saying that England getting big looks
bad for both of us, and if you are going to gamble, I'd offer gambling on us
being successful.
And if we're ever in a game together again, don't let me get away without
building F StP/nc in 1902 again! :)
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
I'll keep this short - busy right now:
> Did you say that you were actually *at* the game last Sunday? That would
have
> been amazing.
Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic game, and under
cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even though I did.
The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to go. . . :-(
> I'm going to the game this Sunday (Broncos at Raiders). Given
> how things have been going, I think maybe they have a shot to win the
game.
> We'll see.
Broncos ain't all that and more, and the Raiders have been playing well
notwithstanding their record. It would be nice to beat an old rival, too.
I hadn't mentioned - I like the Raiders more now that Romanowski is gone.
One bad seed.
> ---------------
A nice touch.
> The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you
ending
> up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
> when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season).
It wasn't clear. On tactical matters I would appreciate you being *very
clear* with your preferences, as I really aim to please, but I'm
thickheaded. Though. . .
> On the other hand, given Tony's move, it turns out that it was important
for
> you to have both units in place if you still want to go for Kie and Den.
This is exactly why I did it. If I was going to occupy KIE and DEN in the
fall, then I would need fleets in SKA and DEN. The point was, to be able
to set up NTH - HOL and SKA - DEN and DEN - KIE, to get two centers (ok,
maybe 3, but much more likely, 2). That was my thinking - water under the
bridge now, as it has set up nicely for DEN and KIE but obviously not HOL.
> We
> will need to make a guess as to how Tony is going to defend. He can try to
> retake Den with Hel-Den or Hel S Kie-Den. I can probably influence or
divine
> Tony's move choices by offering to support one or the other (Bal S
Hel-Den or
> Bal S Kie-Den), if we think he's liable to believe that I'd really offer
the
> support and tell me the truth about what he's up to. (As I left this in my
> drafts folder, I see that I now have press asking for support for
Hel-Den).
This is interesting because it means NTH will have to support SKA - DEN
instead of tapping HEL. Offer him the support. Just don't give it.
> I'm hoping taking Den with Ska is acceptable to you, since it will make my
> life going forward much more comfortable. I would guess that Nth-Hel would
> make Erik happier (that is, me offering to support Kie-Den for Tony),
because
> it has a chance to help him if Tony tries to defend Hol instead of Hel,
but
> that seems the less likely move from Tony.
Tony will want to move from HEL because he will count on me tapping it.
And it is more important that I get to 5 right now than that Erik gets to
7. If you would share this scrap of intelligence - the request for support
for HEL - DEN - it will permit me to explain why I have to order NTH s SKA
- DEN. After all, if SKA - DEN does not succeed, I do not claim the dot.
> Let me know what you think, or if you see any other options.
You have 'em. I think we are set up nicely for me to get KIE and DEN, if
you will support. Perhaps as soon as next year I will be ready to shift
into other gears; it depends on what becomes of HOL, among other things.
Perhaps if you suggest to Tony I may be tapping HEL, he will take that as a
sign to support HEL - HOL, or something. Use your judgment.
> Happy turkey day eve,
And to you, my left coast friend. Have a great time at the game.
Ben
Message from England to France and Russia
Gentlemen -
I have heard - from you, Eric - of a likely German HEL - DEN, which will
mean F NTH will have to order NTH s SKA - DEN.
Eric, are you supporting DEN - KIE? Is there anything else we need to go
over?
I am completely exhausted - probably shouldn't be writing press right now.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Ben
Message from Master to all
Players,
I'm extending the deadline by a week at a player's request.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from Germany to England, France, and Russia
OK guys this is how I stand following talks, suggestions and requests
following talks with all three of you.
My most likely moves are thus;
f hel - nth (cutting support for attack on Nwy)
a kie - den (cutting support for attack on swe)
a mun - tyr
a ruh s French army bur - mun
a ber - kie (if everyone is attacking me then I would like in on the action,
kiel will never suspect an attack from berlin)
The above scenario allows Russia to selfbounce in Sweden or attack and take
Berlin or SUpport ENgland into KIE.
It allows France to keep Holland and take MUN with my support or allows
Russia or France to support the other into MUN. England gets to keep Denmark
and I get to attack surprise attack myself.
Any request for alternative moves are welcome.
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
> > you are going to ARM this season....right?
>
> If you examine my moves for the last two seasons, I think you can see that
> planning on me making sound tactical moves on my own is dangerous assumption.
Well...I hadnt noticed taht they were that bad, but since you mention it,
I am now asking you if you are making the sound tactical move...and going
to ARM.
> Can you spell out the picture you are imagining in greater detail?
Part of this we need to talk about.
> Specifically, are you planning to support me to Bud from Ser?
Not immediately, I am supporting ION - GRE since I dont trust the Turk NOT
to support himself there.
I would support you to BUD next year.
If I had the
> army in Rum as anticipated I'd suggest trying for Bul from Rum, but without a
> fleet to tap Bla, that won't succeed. Are you going to take Aeg or Eas and
> Ion? Etc.
No....I am going to hold onto Greece.
You could get an army to RUM and get sound tactical positioning by
SEV - ARM
RUM - SEV
GAL s UKR - RUM
UKR - RUM
How do you see this playing out, and remember you are already 2 centers
ahead of me .
take care
Andy
Message from Turkey to Russia
Austria is offering to support Bul - Ser, and I'm going to take it. Go
ahead with the shuffle this turn, and we should be in good shape to move
next year.
jason
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Sorry about Denver - I had thought you guys were due to clean their clocks.
I hope you had a good time at the game, anyway.
> Subject: USTX:c2 - F1903M Press from G to EFR
Tony's group press tells me that, if he is to be believed, we can follow up
with BAL s DEN - KIE, and NTH s SKA - DEN, as we'd discussed. I might as
soon as next year be in a good position to start pushing in another
direction, depending on whether Germany reclaims HOL. Which would not be
what he described, but is certainly a possibility.
What do you think?
Ben
Message from Austria to Russia
Hi Eric,
Sorry for not responding sooner, but I was trying to convince
Jason to go against Andy (not sure if I was successfull, but it's
time to issue orders).
On our side, I still want you to get Vie, but I would also
appreciate your keeping the options of a second southern
fleet open.
Philippe
Message from France to all
Folks --
Sorry if I haven't been responding to press, but I was away for
Thanksgiving. My girlfriend's parents don't have dial-up, much less
broadband, so I was kind of in the stone ages for a few days there. I will
get back to you all later today.
Erik
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I'm a couple of responses behind.
>Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic game, and under
>cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even though I did.
>The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to go. . . :-(
Hah! Yeah, we stayed to the bitter end yesterday -- and it was bitter! Even
watched Plummer down the last ball. In the rain. While I'm still sick. But
it was fun, and the Raiders did have a chance, even though they blew it
several times. Your team made the rest of my family unhappy (all Niners fans).
>I hadn't mentioned - I like the Raiders more now that Romanowski is gone.
Yeah, that was a hard one. :)
> > The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you
> ending
> > up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
> > when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season).
>
>It wasn't clear. On tactical matters I would appreciate you being *very
>clear* with your preferences, as I really aim to please, but I'm
>thickheaded. Though. . .
Fair enough. I will endeavor to be clearer. I can see how the cryptic "for
selfish and probably self-evident reasons" doesn't really spell things out
clearly. Knowing that I had
[snippage]
>This is interesting because it means NTH will have to support SKA - DEN
>instead of tapping HEL. Offer him the support. Just don't give it.
Right. My point was that if I offer him support, it doesn't really matter
which move I offer to support, since we'll be able to tell how to counter
his moves -- it just requires that he be expecting support. I think it
would be better for us if Kie was the mover, because then he can't support
Kie in place, but I don't want to be too pushy about trying to force him to
move one unit or the other. And we'll see, he hasn't confirmed his request yet.
>If you would share this scrap of intelligence - the request for support
>for HEL - DEN - it will permit me to explain why I have to order NTH s SKA
>- DEN. After all, if SKA - DEN does not succeed, I do not claim the dot.
I can do this, but FYI, I have been offline since my last press to you.
Erik and I did exchange some brief press about how Den and Hol may split
Tony's attention. So while I haven't said anything to him yet, I think he
will see the validity of this argument before I talk with him.
> > Subject: USTX:c2 - F1903M Press from G to EFR
>Tony's group press tells me that, if he is to be believed, we can follow up
>with BAL s DEN - KIE, and NTH s SKA - DEN, as we'd discussed. I might as
>soon as next year be in a good position to start pushing in another
>direction, depending on whether Germany reclaims HOL. Which would not be
>what he described, but is certainly a possibility.
I was only online for non-work stuff briefly, so haven't really processed
his message. I haven't heard anything from Tony that would indicate that
he's given up on asking for support to Den (though I haven't sent anything
agreeing to it yet either), so I suspect that message is meant more for
your and Erik's benefit than mine. Then again, with not being around, maybe
something broke with his and Erik's relationship? I'm just not sure. In any
case, whether or not what he's said is the truth, it would work with our
discussed moves, just as it would work if he's moving Hel-Den. The only
thing that would change our moves is if he asks for support for Kie-Den
instead of Hel. (See above for some discussion of this).
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
> > Specifically, are you planning to support me to Bud from Ser?
>
>Not immediately, I am supporting ION - GRE since I dont trust the Turk NOT
>to support himself there.
>
>I would support you to BUD next year.
Right. That was not meant as a demand, since clearly supporting me to Bud
and keeping Jason from taking Gre are mutually exclusive. I was just trying
to understand the bigger picture. Jason not getting Gre is a good thing.
And last thing he told me about Gre he was planning to support himself
there anyway.
>You could get an army to RUM and get sound tactical positioning by
>
>SEV - ARM
>RUM - SEV
>GAL s UKR - RUM
>UKR - RUM
>
>How do you see this playing out, and remember you are already 2 centers
>ahead of me.
Details, details. :)
Seriously, I'd think a split of something like Tri, Bul for you, Vie, Bud
for me. You should be able to get Tri with or without my help next year as
I take Bud. Then I could focus on Vie, and breaking the defense and/or
supporting you into Bul. From there we'd probably split Turkey 2/1, with me
taking Ank. That's a stable arrangement if we go forward looking at 3way
possibilities. If we are looking at 2 ways, then we'll have to look at
different arrangements of the southern dots. The way things look now, this
leaves me up one on you, but depending on how things go, you may end up
going up one while I go down one anyway, so that center difference you
refer to may be ephemeral. If I'm doing really well in the north, then we
can look at other arrangements, but we'll need something that gives us each
a semblance of defensible lines.
Is that the kind of response you are looking for?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Did I really send you a message where I called you Ben? I must be sicker
than I thought! It looks like the content was meant for you, but I just
called you the wrong thing. My apologies for any insult that may have
represented to either of you. :)
>Sorry for not responding sooner, but I was trying to convince
>Jason to go against Andy (not sure if I was successfull, but it's
>time to issue orders).
I'm not complaining, seeing as I was offline most of the last week and a
half. I think you were successful, as Jason has indicated that he's going
to go through with this. Do note that the deadline was extended to next
Monday (part of the reason I was willing to take off my sick time this
weekend).
>On our side, I still want you to get Vie, but I would also
>appreciate your keeping the options of a second southern
>fleet open.
So if I understand correctly you are asking me to move Gal-Vie, to keep F
Rum in place and vacate Sev, yes? If so, is the option of a second fleet
because you don't trust Jason to take your support or because you'd like to
see me in a position to attack him?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
>Austria is offering to support Bul - Ser, and I'm going to take it. Go
>ahead with the shuffle this turn, and we should be in good shape to move
>next year.
He hinted that he might offer you that, but I didn't want to be pushy and
suggest you go for it if you didn't ask me. Given that he hinted it to me,
that either means that he really means it, or that he's up to something
with Italy. I think the move makes sense overall, because as I've said a
few times, you'd really be trusting Andy not to protect Gre otherwise.
Have I really not sent you any press all this season? If so, I apologize.
I've been sick and offline most of the time, but I still thought I had sent
something. Bad ally! I promise to try to be better.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
I got a kick out of that last message! I don't know if Ben believes it (and
I assume that was primarily for his benefit) but he still is asking for the
support we've talked about, so Hel-Den should still work, whether he thinks
you are telling the truth or lying.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Ben has asked me to "leak" our moves to you to explain to you that he can't
afford to support you in Hol because he needs Nth to support Ska-Den. As I
think I've told you, I've let him (Ben) know that depending on what Germany
wants to do, if he asks me for support, we (Ben and I) can counter it by me
feeding him moves. When we talked about the fact that he may need Nth to
support Ska-Den, he was concerned that you might want support for Hol. You
might want to let on as to how you are concerned about Hol, but that if
we're fairly confident that Germany is not using Hel against it, then you
can live with it. Or somesuch.
What is the story on Hol? Is Tony fighting for it? Any ideas about how we
should set up to attack Tony going forward? We could try to take Mun while
we work against Ben, but that might be pushing it. We really don't want to
force EG if we don't have to. What's your take?
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
No problem on the lack of press. I've been fairly slack myself with
Thanksgiving and what not.
Andy wants me to let him keep Gre to get a build, but that's not going
to happen. Good luck this year.
jason
Message from Germany to Russia
;-) there wasnt much else I could think of.
I will cut the NTH as discussed and move kie - den, so the broadcast wasnt that far off.
Message from Austria to Russia
> So if I understand correctly you are asking me to move Gal-Vie, to keep F
> Rum in place and vacate Sev, yes? If so, is the option of a second fleet
> because you don't trust Jason to take your support or because you'd like to
> see me in a position to attack him?
After your confirmation, I tend to think Jason will accept my
support; but I can't be sure and would prefer to see you in
position to do something about it.
Philippe.
P.-S. Regarding the move to Vie, if you prefer to move to
Boh instead, I'm ok with it; but please do so only if you can
be sure that Andy isn't going to get anything out of me.
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> I'm a couple of responses behind.
No sweat. I figured it was the holiday season & all.
> >Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic
> game, and under
> >cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even
> though I did.
> >The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to
> go. . . :-(
>
> Hah! Yeah, we stayed to the bitter end yesterday -- and it
> was bitter! Even
> watched Plummer down the last ball. In the rain. While I'm
> still sick. But
> it was fun, and the Raiders did have a chance, even though
> they blew it
> several times. Your team made the rest of my family unhappy
> (all Niners fans).
I should think *their* team made them unhappy. Talk shows Monday morning
were more focussed on the collapse of the Niners than the quality play of
Baltimore. Niners, with every reason to leave it all on the field, played
like garbage. And left something else on the field, instead. Apologies to
the Niners fans in the peanut gallery. I do not approve of student athletes
(or their coaches) running up a score, but in the pros, I do not think it is
such a big deal, though mildly distasteful.
What are you hearing from Tony?
And from Erik?
While we can analyze the position together, we are not in a vacuum. . .
I have heard nothing from Erik in awhile, and Tony of course writes me
thrice a day telling me FR will come and kill me when he is gone. I am not
*too* worried about this, as I think I am useful to you without being a
threat, whereas if France keeps growing, the west will be resolved quickly
enough that it will be difficult for you to solo, further down the road.
Also we have good (& regular) press, also I think we have a good feel for
each other diplomatically, also at my small size I am not particularly
threatening. *Especially* if you support me into KIE, in which case I will
be (a) in your debt, and perhaps more importantly, (b) out of SKA.
Ben
Message from Russia to Germany
> ;-) there wasnt much else I could think of.
> I will cut the NTH as discussed and move kie - den, so the broadcast
> wasnt that far off.
Sounds good. Do note that originally we talked about Hel-Den, so this
represents a change to what we had originally discussed. I'm not complaining
-- Kie-Den works as well as Hel-Den, and probably gives you a better
defensive position overall -- but I hope you were planning to mention this
change to me so I could deliver on the support!
I'll change my order to support Kie-Den.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> Right. That was not meant as a demand, since clearly supporting me to Bud
> and keeping Jason from taking Gre are mutually exclusive. I was just trying
> to understand the bigger picture. Jason not getting Gre is a good thing.
> And last thing he told me about Gre he was planning to support himself
> there anyway.
>
Then I would ask you to hit Bul for me.
Rum - Bul
Sev - ARM
GAL s UKR - RUM
UKR - RUM
protects up both.
> Details, details. :)
Yeah....:-)
>
> Seriously, I'd think a split of something like Tri, Bul for you, Vie, Bud
> for me. You should be able to get Tri with or without my help next year as
> I take Bud. Then I could focus on Vie, and breaking the defense and/or
> supporting you into Bul. From there we'd probably split Turkey 2/1, with me
> taking Ank. That's a stable arrangement if we go forward looking at 3way
> possibilities.
I agree with all of this.
If we are looking at 2 ways, then we'll have to look at
> different arrangements of the southern dots. The way things look now, this
> leaves me up one on you, but depending on how things go, you may end up
> going up one while I go down one anyway, so that center difference you
> refer to may be ephemeral. If I'm doing really well in the north, then we
> can look at other arrangements, but we'll need something that gives us each
> a semblance of defensible lines.
> Is that the kind of response you are looking for?
Yes...very much so...thank you
Andy
Message from Germany to Russia
Well we hadnt really finalised any moves, we still have a week left. I am
still fishing for Englands and Frances moves.
Pushing the fleet to NTH does cut eventual support for DEN should Ben not
trust either of us.
How are you and France getting allong. If a three way press is there then by
all means get it going. I will finalise my moves a day or two before the
deadline. France hasnt said much and Ben is not going into details.
He is playing the trust me and see you have no other options routine. But as
stated there is still a good 6 days left.
We could also look at me supporting you to DEN. A blue unit or Grey unit
doesnt make that much difference to me.
Any puppet roll would do right now, that is why I am fishing with EFR. If
you know what France is up to with Holland then you know whether he will cut
support from KIE or not. I could have KIE support you in and cut NTH. You
cover SWE from NWY just in case. But there again me cutting NTH and DEN
helps you quite a bit too. I dont believe you will be helping Ben into Kiel.
If he gets two builds where is he to go??
He can only move against you or France once I am gone. He is stuck in the
middle. You do not benefit from him growing. I benefit from surviving for as
long as possible. You also dont want France getting out of control If he
wraps England up the you are also a target. Just some thoughts for now. I
have offered myself as a puppet to all 3 of you. But who do I trust ;-)
????????
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I still owe you mail. I'm waaay behind on my hobbies as compared to RL stuff
(I know, Dip is important and all, but it still counts as a hobby).
I'm responding to your message from memory, so if I miss or mis-state any
points, please point that out.
What am I hearing from Germany and France?
Well, Tony has thrown around all sorts of ideas -- Hel-Den I told you about.
After his broadcast he sent me a message saying that's really how he's going
to move, and he'd like support for Kie-Den. He also threw out the possibility
of offering to support me to Den. I think either of the first two work for
us. I would not trust him to support me to Den even if he actually offers it
(so far he's just raised the idea). (There are other reasons why I think it
would be a bad idea for me to go for Den, but since I can't get past trusting
him to support the move, I don't need to consider those concerns at this
time.)
He (Tony) has also made it clear that he's shopping for his best offer, which
is no surprise. What's he offering you?
I haven't heard anything from Erik recently. Somewhat worrisome at this
point, given that it sounds from Tony's press that he *has* been talking with
Erik. Added to the fact that Tony's moves all indicate that he won't be
contesting Hol, I'm not sure what to make of Erik's silence. Especially given
that he's not talked to me about Mun after pushing so hard to see me take
Sil.
Oh -- found your message:
> I have heard nothing from Erik in awhile, and Tony of course writes me
> thrice a day telling me FR will come and kill me when he is gone. I am not
> *too* worried about this, as I think I am useful to you without being a
> threat,
As I've tried to spell out, when I chose not to build in StP I think I made
my leaning toward ER clear. Yes, you would be trusting me not to form an FR
(or GR). Similarly, I'm trusting you not to form a GE. All are possible,
though for reasons we've discussed, and I've written about below (I'm writing
this out of order) I think they're not as good for either of us.
> whereas if France keeps growing, the west will be resolved quickly
> enough that it will be difficult for you to solo, further down the road.
Solo! Heck, with my recent results I'm worried about survival still. (In my
last game as Russia I was larger than I am here and was ultimately
eliminated). But your strategic point is valid. Even moreso, I don't need any
English dots to actually solo if it comes to that. FWIW, my view on solos is
to shoot for a strong draw position, and hope the other players screw stuff
up or piss each other off rather than trying to force a win. See VGFP2017 for
a good example of this -- I did end up soloing, but I spent most of my time
trying really hard to help France try to secure a place in a 3WD, giving him
centers I could easily have taken. Eventually, Germany pressed him so hard he
decided to throw to me. So with or without considering solos, I'm not likely
to do anything to press you until and unless your situation gets to the point
that you want me to as a threat to the others.
Mind you, I'm far from predicting that I'm going to come close to a solo, but
I thought that would be useful background info for you if you are worried I'm
going to try to grab all your dots.
> Also we have good (& regular) press, also I think we have a good feel for
> each other diplomatically,
Absolutely. I play towards the players I'm comfortable with much more than
the position that is necessarily strongest. Which is why I had no problem
with you attacking Swe last Fall given our agreements, and why I ultimately
chose to not build a fleet in StP (or Sev for that matter). I think from a
purely tactical point of view those could be considered mistakes (and I'm
dying to see what (if anything) the observers said about those choices). But
I definitely believe that good, productive diplomacy will win out over good
tactics in every case except maybe the late end-game.
> also at my small size I am not particularly threatening.
Threatening is always a relative thing. I agree that I won't win sympathy
points from any other players about the "English threat", but you could hurt
me if you chose to -- especially if I *don't* work with you. Perhaps not kill
me, but throw a significant wrench into my position, and turn someone else
(probably France?) into the board leader. Don't underestimate my willingness
to be flexible just because I have more units than you do!
I would also point out that there's an inverse piece to you being "not
particularly threatening" here too. Erik is in MAO and is looking to gain a
build if we believe Tony's broadcast and press to me. If Erik moves to
Iri/Lon and builds in Bre, he's a big threat to you. Whereas I am unlikely to
pick up any builds (though of course anything is possible), and even if I do,
it would be several seasons before anything I built would be able to be a
threat to you. Essentially, our separation (the nice ER buffer you've
referred to a couple of times) is good for both of us. I would also point out
that every unit I lose gives Erik that much stronger an advantage over you in
Germany (both directly and because of who I'd be inclined to help) which in
turn leads to French builds that are likely to come after you.
> *Especially* if you support me into KIE, in which case I will
> be (a) in your debt, and perhaps more importantly, (b) out of SKA.
I think (b) is definitely more important at this stage. I don't expect people
to do things because they are "in my debt". I do expect that helping you into
Kie will buy me goodwill (which is important) and will help further ER
cooperation, but I don't expect to have that lead to you "puppetting" for me,
or doing things that go counter to your best interests. So I am definitely
looking for ways to make ER make ongoing sense for both of us. I came to you
early with the promise of supporting you to Kie because I think it helps both
of us. It is real ER cooperation, it gets you builds (which makes it worth
your while), it moves you away from me, and it keeps Tony and Erik in check.
I'm actually now looking at what to do once you are in Kie and Den. The
challenge is going to be getting you a presence on the mainland. F Kie
doesn't project a lot of force for you into the lowlands, but I'm hoping that
you getting builds now will give you a good start towards that presence. As
with England proper, I really don't need to get more than one or two German
dots to have a secure northern position.
What's your take on going forward? I'm thinking gettign you in Kie/Den and me
in Ber, while I move my nothern units back to more defensive positions. You
focus on Germany/France (with my help as required) I focus on the south. My
point is to make it clear that my goal is to make it worth your while to
continue with ER. If I'm missing important elements that would make ER work
for you, please let me know.
I hope this all makes sense. I'm writing this message like one sentence at a
time between phone calls and other work stuff. If it's self-contradictory,
stupid, unacceptable, unclear or any such, please let me know.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
[Whoops! I wrote most of this message yesterday, but it's still sitting
unsent in my "outbox".]
I wasn't complaining about the "change". And I realize that we had not
committed to anything, because I was still trying to find out what England
was looking to do as well. I just wanted to make sure that you realized it
was a change.
I had not considered the idea of me taking Den. Looking at it I don't see how
it would make sense. We need two fleets between us, and if I took Den, you'd
be disbanding at least one unit. The advantage of me being in Den is that it
puts two units on Nth, but do you really thinkn you could afford to lose that
many units? In either case I agree that Ben has a chance of supporting
himself in Den if he's worried about us, so Hel-Nth is probably good whatever
else we decide.
I understand the idea that surviving as a puppet is better than not, but at
this point I think it's premature for you to talk about being a puppet -- at
least not being *my* puppet. If we are working together, we'd be about equal
strenth in the north. Granted I'm (currently) bigger overall, but it seems
far too early for you to really be a puppet. As to who you should trust,
obviously I'm not an unbiased observer here. I will say that I was serious
last season about trying to take Ska (whether you took it or I did). Without
that confirmation, and without another northern unit (and again, I admit that
was a mistake on my part), I didn't think I could afford to move against
England.
Obviously I'm interested in having an advantageous position, but I don't
believe in deals that are "too good" for me, and we'd need to work together
for either of us to do well in the north. If you want to support me to Den we
can talk about it, but we should only do that if it makes real sense to get
you in a good position. But if I focus on building in the North and pull back
from Sil while you take Den, that would allow us to work together well as
allies -- not with you as a puppet.
As to Erik, I haven't heard anything from him for several days. Surprisingly,
he had not asked me for support to Mun (though it's still early in the
season, so who knows what may come later) so he may be serious about turning
on Ben and working with you.
Short version is that I tend to think I should support you to Den, but won't
complain if you decide that me taking it makes more sense. If you take it
we've got some logistics about how to get my fleet back to Swe afterwards,
but we can probably work out those details after the moves. If Erik really
does move to Iri, then the EF problems will give you new life and make me
pressing against England more realistic. But again, for that to work, you
need to be strong enough to be a real threat to France.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Just checking in. Everything okay? Turkey poisoning?
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Tony is clearly working you over the way he is working me over, too. He
told me as well that he's been hearing good things from Erik (and from you,
too), though my guess is, he continues to hear nothing from Erik but is
desparate to create friction.
I suspect I've gotten as much press from Erik as anyone has this game and I
haven't heard a peep in some time, so I'm not too worried about it.
> He (Tony) has also made it clear that he's shopping for his best offer,
which
> is no surprise. What's he offering you?
Survival beyond the FR Of Doom. He wants me to attack Scandinavia, of
course, which I will not do, as he has lied to me pretty much every phase
since S'01, so I would just as soon not count on him as a long-term
partner, when I have other choices available.
> I haven't heard anything from Erik recently. Somewhat worrisome at this
> point, given that it sounds from Tony's press that he *has* been talking
with
> Erik.
I do not believe him.
> Added to the fact that Tony's moves all indicate that he won't be
> contesting Hol, I'm not sure what to make of Erik's silence. Especially
given
> that he's not talked to me about Mun after pushing so hard to see me take
> Sil.
Erik's press is on-again, off-again, as you will recall from C1. I suspect
Tony permitted the shot at HOL in order to deny builds to the rest of us,
if he thought he could. Creating an imbalance among the attacking allies,
and all that.
[snippage - I agree with you on everything in here, take no offense that I
clipped it from the response]
> I would also point out that there's an inverse piece to you being "not
> particularly threatening" here too. Erik is in MAO and is looking to gain
a
> build if we believe Tony's broadcast and press to me. If Erik moves to
> Iri/Lon and builds in Bre, he's a big threat to you. Whereas I am
unlikely to
> pick up any builds (though of course anything is possible), and even if I
do,
> it would be several seasons before anything I built would be able to be a
> threat to you. Essentially, our separation (the nice ER buffer you've
> referred to a couple of times) is good for both of us. I would also point
out
> that every unit I lose gives Erik that much stronger an advantage over
you in
> Germany (both directly and because of who I'd be inclined to help) which
in
> turn leads to French builds that are likely to come after you.
I am a bit worried about this. I am thinking, a fall stab of MAO - NAO (or
IRI) *if I get builds* will not be too painful, as surely he knows. So I
am hopeful he will push south, as I've been urging him.
> I think (b) is definitely more important at this stage. I don't expect
people
> to do things because they are "in my debt". I do expect that helping you
into
> Kie will buy me goodwill (which is important) and will help further ER
> cooperation, but I don't expect to have that lead to you "puppetting" for
me,
> or doing things that go counter to your best interests. So I am definitely
> looking for ways to make ER make ongoing sense for both of us. I came to
you
> early with the promise of supporting you to Kie because I think it helps
both
> of us. It is real ER cooperation, it gets you builds (which makes it worth
> your while), it moves you away from me, and it keeps Tony and Erik in
check.
Sounds good. Debt is not something to be ignored, either; consider that
Tony appears to be a player for whom good will is without value. And he
has surrounded himself with enemies. . .
> I'm actually now looking at what to do once you are in Kie and Den. The
> challenge is going to be getting you a presence on the mainland. F Kie
> doesn't project a lot of force for you into the lowlands, but I'm hoping
that
> you getting builds now will give you a good start towards that presence.
As
> with England proper, I really don't need to get more than one or two
German
> dots to have a secure northern position.
This is true.
> What's your take on going forward? I'm thinking gettign you in Kie/Den
and me
> in Ber, while I move my nothern units back to more defensive positions.
You
> focus on Germany/France (with my help as required) I focus on the south.
My
> point is to make it clear that my goal is to make it worth your while to
> continue with ER. If I'm missing important elements that would make ER
work
> for you, please let me know.
No, you've got it.
> I hope this all makes sense. I'm writing this message like one sentence
at a
> time between phone calls and other work stuff. If it's self-contradictory,
> stupid, unacceptable, unclear or any such, please let me know.
:-)
Tut, tut. The only obvious omission was football.
Ben
Message from Germany to Russia
>I had not considered the idea of me taking Den. Looking at it I don't see how
it would make sense.>
It only makes sense for me. Lets be honest, either you, england or france is lying to me. In the worst case all three of you are lying. I am basically selling my soul to whoever wants it. Thats why I stated that it doesnt matter to me if DEN is english or Russian. I would ofcourse prefer it to be german.
> We need two fleets between us, and if I took Den, you'd be disbanding at least one unit. The advantage of me being in Den is that it puts two units on Nth, but do you really thinkn you could afford to lose that
many units?>
I dont want to lose any, I am offering anything to anyone to stay alive. I am sure one of the three will take up the offer.
> In either case I agree that Ben has a chance of supporting himself in Den if he's worried about us, so Hel-Nth is probably good whatever else we decide.>
Agreed, it cuts support for HOL and DEN.
> I understand the idea that surviving as a puppet is better than not, but at this point I think it's premature for you to talk about being a puppet>
I have never used the ploy before as it has never been needed so please excuse my ignorance in this matter ;-)
> -- at least not being *my* puppet. If we are working together, we'd be about equal
strenth in the north. Granted I'm (currently) bigger overall, but it seems
far too early for you to really be a puppet. As to who you should trust,
obviously I'm not an unbiased observer here. I will say that I was serious
last season about trying to take Ska (whether you took it or I did). Without
that confirmation, and without another northern unit (and again, I admit that
was a mistake on my part), I didn't think I could afford to move against
England.>
We live and learn.
>Obviously I'm interested in having an advantageous position, but I don't
believe in deals that are "too good" for me, and we'd need to work together
for either of us to do well in the north. If you want to support me to Den we
can talk about it, but we should only do that if it makes real sense to get
you in a good position. But if I focus on building in the North and pull back
from Sil while you take Den, that would allow us to work together well as
allies -- not with you as a puppet.>
This for obvious reasons has my preference.
> As to Erik, I haven't heard anything from him for several days. Surprisingly,
he had not asked me for support to Mun (though it's still early in the
season, so who knows what may come later) so he may be serious about turning
on Ben and working with you.>
I hope so.
> Short version is that I tend to think I should support you to Den, but won't
complain if you decide that me taking it makes more sense. If you take it
we've got some logistics about how to get my fleet back to Swe afterwards,
but we can probably work out those details after the moves. If Erik really
does move to Iri, then the EF problems will give you new life and make me
pressing against England more realistic. But again, for that to work, you
need to be strong enough to be a real threat to France.>
Agreed, but I am sure you dont want england getting two builds, so I am sure you will not be helping him into Kiel. This makes it more clear that I should keep Denmark so that we can both take on England. A joint GR would also convince France to join in. That is why I am hoping either you or France will get a 3 way press going.
tony
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Answering another of your questions from yesterday:
Concerning tacitcs, how to proceed from fleets in DEN and KIE, it would depend on whether Germany had captured HEL - HOL. If he had, and IF was in open war, I would have to consider attacking France immediately. Otherwise I would shoot for HEL and negotiate for an English HOL, I think.
I agree the goal would be the insertion of an English army on the mainland.
This is the point at which, if you have a preference, you should tell me what it is. ;o) I have no attachment to the plan just expressed and am floating it only as a trial balloon.
Ben
Message from France to Russia
1.) The flu
2.) Having to work 11 hour days with the flu because of an audit
I am at home recovering today. I will catch up on the game in the next
couple of hours. My apologies for the silence.
Erik
Message from Russia to France
Fair enough. And I'm *very* sympathetic to both, being sick myself the last
week or so.
Get well.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Hey Jason,
I was looking over the board a bit and trying to get a sense of how we should
go forward, and I was thinking also about the general discussion we had about
DMZing the Black.
As I said earlier, I think it's too early this year you to vacate Black, but
I have an idea for next year that DMZes the Black and gets us both a lot of
momentum east. Tell me what you think about this:
After our moves in Spring, you should be in Ser and Bul. What if, instead of
me swapping my units around, I keep F Rum. You build F Smy and continue to
press Italy and head for Gre. Then in Spring, you move Bla-Rum with support
and disband my fleet, while supporting me to Bud with Ser. In Fall, I will
then support myself to Rum, and you can disband F Rum. That puts us in the
same position we've been discussing, but both without fleets on Black. You
can build and extra fleet for the Med (or an army if you need one) and I can
build in the north somewhere. Actually, we should both end up building two
units -- you for Gre and also the replacement for F Rum, me for Bud and for
replacing F Rum.
To be honest, your fleet in Bla doesn't really bother me, so while I think
this is a good option for both of us, I'm open to the idea of you having F
Bla there for longer, or just sailing it out Con. But I thought (1) it seems
kind of silly for us to both have units pointing at each other if we're
cooperating and (2) you might like seeing my fleet disappear.
Let me know what you think about this idea. The reason I raise it now is
because it would require me to keep my fleet in Rum, since you can't support
an attack on Sev (and I can't support you attacking me either), which affects
this season's moves.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
Well, I seem to be falling behind on my trend of sending more press to
myself/observers than to any other players. :)
Very interesting situation I find myself in. I would love to see Andy keep
his army in the south to give me some leverage on Jason, but I think I can
live without it. I have definitely considered the Rum S Ser-Bul option to
counter the AT attack, but I think I'm better off working with AT for the
moment. This will be a big mistake if Philippe is not serious about given me
Vie, but I can't pass up the offer at this point. Even though both AI want me
to attack (or set up to attack) Jason, I'd rather not do that at this point.
If Jason goes for the removal of fleets I suggested, I could completely see
holding in Rum now, and then in Spring moving Sev-Arm, Rum-Sev, and setting
up on Ank and Rum for Fall. But that's getting ahead of myself -- and it's
making a perhaps unfair guess that Jason will not see the possibility of this
stab -- but it would be pretty amazing if it came to be.
The north is the bigger conundrum for me. I would really like to stop Ben,
because he is holding a huge edge over me and I hate being at a disadvantage
(despite the fact that I think I play better in bad positions than good
ones). However, I cannot overlook how devastated Tony's position would be if
I support Ben into Kie (and Ben takes it). Even if Ben came after me
afterwards, it might be worth losing Scandinavia to get that opening into the
West -- I could probably offer to let him keep the whole territory unopposed
if he goes after France. This is especially true if Philippe really lets me
into Vie, because I'd have an army advantage in Germany proper, and might be
able to take Mun, Ber, Kie to make up for the lost Scandinavian centers.
The down side is that it loses Erik's support, but if I can convince Erik to
move to Iri/NAO/Lon based on Tony and I taking Den at the same time, that
would be fantastic. The problem is that it's fine for Ben to know I'm playing
him and Tony off of each other, but if Ben finds out that I'm encouraging
Erik to attack him, then I'm in trouble. I'd like to figure out a way to give
Tony the 3-way press he's requesting without giving him ammunition for Ben.
Unfortunately the only solution I can see so far is SO manipulative that I
can't imagine it working: Press to RGF agreeing to take Den, press to EFR
alerting E that the RGF press was sent to mislead G and private press to F
saying that the press to EFR about RFG's press is to mislead E.
Of course, this all hinges on Ben actually taking my support to Kie, which is
somewhat iffy. I could imagine supporting Tony into Den, even though that
would probably lead to GE, it also gets Erik firmly on my side. The down side
there is that if I support Erik, I've also got to support Andy (Sev-Arm and
Rum S Ser-Bul). Otherwise Erik will have too free a ride in the west.
The final thing I could do if I want to be *completely* piggy is to order Bal
S Sil-Ber. That would get me a build, give Ben a build with which to hold off
Erik, but still decimate Tony. I could then build F StP/nc and push for
Germany and Scandinavia.
As you can see, I'm sitting in overanalysis central over here. I tend to
think I'll go with supporting Den-Kie, second choice is supporting Sil-Ber,
third choice is supporting Tony to Den. In the south, I'll probably go for
Vie, let Jason take Ser, and hope that Jason goes for the fleet disband
suggestions.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
> As I said earlier, I think it's too early this year you to vacate Black,
but
> I have an idea for next year that DMZes the Black and gets us both a lot of
> momentum east.
Duh! Obviously I meant west.
Your directionally challenged friend,
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
Thanks for your note.
Your plan makes sense. I'd prefer to hold Rum in the long run, and I
certainly understand you wanting Bla empty in the long run.
jason
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
Just want to verify that what I suggested would have me keeping Rum next
season. I'm open to you having Rum after that (or even right away if I
actually gain ground in other areas) but for now I was saying, you get Ser
and Gre, I get Bud, and we both disband our fleets. Given that, does it still
work for you?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Damned with all my typos!
Just want to verify that what I suggested would have me keeping Rum next
>year< [I said "season" in the last message"]. I'm open to you having Rum
after that (or even right away if I actually gain ground in other areas) but
for now I was saying: you get Ser and Gre (plus Tri if we're really lucky), I
get Bud and keep Rum, and we both disband our fleets. Given that, does it
still work for you?
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
Ok, let me make sure I'm clear. I would get Rum in 1905, not 1904?
jason
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Curiously Erik is /still/ silent. Well, we will see.
(a) Have you heard from him, and
(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
Thanks.
Ben
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Thanks for your patience. I'll cut the chit-chat and get to business.
I'd like to move on Iri, but I'm concerned about the English gaining a
center and being able to build in Lon or Edi, thereby nullifying the
advantage that the move to Iri confers. I'm guessing, based on what I've
heard so far, that England is more or less guaranteed to keep Den? Or do
you have other plans afoot?
If England is going to gain the build, I'd just as soon finish of Germany
than start in on Ben.
Erik
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
>I'd like to move on Iri, but I'm concerned about the English gaining a
>center and being able to build in Lon or Edi, thereby nullifying the
>advantage that the move to Iri confers. I'm guessing, based on what I've
>heard so far, that England is more or less guaranteed to keep Den? Or do
>you have other plans afoot?
I've been waiting on hearing from you to determine this. Tony has asked for
support to Den. Ben has asked for support to Kie. Either way can work for
us. Or I could give neither, in which case Ben gets one, and Tony goes down
one or two (depending on Hol). So it's kind of up to whatever works for us.
So what's your preference?
--- Eric
Message from France to Russia
I definitely don't want England to gain two centers this turn -- that will
give him way too much levarage against either of us down the road. We need
to keep him to one, at best.
Perhaps the best course of action would be to support Germany from Hel -
Den. This guarantees that I keep Holland, keeps England at three and
knocks Germany down to four.
If that happens, the only question is what's better -- bounce Italy in Wes
for security or head for Lvp? If I can get a build of F Bre, that move to
Lvp may not really be necessary, and keeping Mao around will definitely
allow me to move comfortably around England while keeping Andy in check.
Thoughts?
Erik
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
>(a) Have you heard from him, and
I got a brief message from him that looks to have come in this AM, when
this one did.
>(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
I won't insult your intelligence by saying I haven't looked at the options,
but nothing about keeping Tony big or giving France a free pass in the west
looks like it would be advantageous to me. While you around Scandinavia is
scary, I like the facts that (1) you'll be moving away even if it's only
briefly, (2) that it keeps the west somewhat up for grabs and (3) you
growing will give France something to worry about. While I *do* value our
relationship, I look for moves that give a reason for both of us to be
happy. I focused most in my last messages about why I hope taking the
support to Kie is good for you, obviously I selfishly see it good for me,
too. Den-Kie (assuming you are going to take it) is my best move. If you
confirm you will be taking it, then I will confirm ordering it. Last I
heard, Tony was still asking for Kie-Den, not Hel-Den. That means there is
a chance that he will burn me and support himself in Kie, but I'll order
the support.
>Promise me the Raiders will roll over like that for us next week.
LOL! I can make no such guarantees, but I wouldn't bet against it either.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Here's my quandary:
#1) I can handle having Ben mad at me for supporting Tony against him if
he's under pressure from you. If he's not, then hitting Den with Tony is
just begging for GE to combine to take Swe/Nwy. I'd like to know you are
going to hit him if you want me to as well.
#2) Tony has been bugging me to write something like this in a three-way, R
to FG press. I've been hesitant, because I expect he would share any such
thing with Ben. In fact, there's some oddness because Ben could hold in Den
to ensure that he holds it (otherwise Nth/Ska S Den means I can't force it
with Tony), so we both need to make sure he thinks that I'm supporting the
move if we want him to not get a build. You don't need to go out of your
way to say anything to him, but if he asks, then you should probably tell
him that I'm supporting him. Even if we're going to just pound on Germany,
it's still good for Ben to think I'm helping him, because Kie could support
action against Hol. Ben cutting that support is helpful however we look at
it. Do you think a three way press with Germany is an okay way to go?
--- Eric
Message from France to Russia
>
> #1) I can handle having Ben mad at me for supporting Tony against him if
> he's under pressure from you. If he's not, then hitting Den with Tony is
> just begging for GE to combine to take Swe/Nwy. I'd like to know you are
> going to hit him if you want me to as well.
I'll make a final call tomorrow before the evening. For now, I think I am
probably going to move to Iri. A lot depends on how reliable I think my
read of Andy's moves are.
>
> #2) Tony has been bugging me to write something like this in a
> three-way, R
> to FG press. I've been hesitant, because I expect he would share any
> such
> thing with Ben.
I know what you mean. I haven't actually seen Tony forward any press yet,
so I don't know he makes a habit of that sort of thing, but if he does,
our prose is different enough from his to avoid questions of fakery. If he
just reports on the three-way press, Ben may not really believe him --
Tony's shown a consistent pattern of false information throughout the
game.
If I hit Iri, we're guaranteed some sort of EG cooperation discussion. The
question is whether or not that cooperation will be too little, too late
to save them. I think the more ground we can gain this turn, the better,
so I'd prefer to keep the two of them isolated and segmented for now.
Still, if you think a 3-way press will help seal the deal, go for it.
Erik
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> >(a) Have you heard from him, and
>
> I got a brief message from him that looks to have come in
> this AM, when this one did.
Ah, yes. He's returned to the land of the living since I wrote this. Good
news, I guess; he seems unchanged.
> >(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
>
> I won't insult your intelligence by saying I haven't looked
> at the options,
> but nothing about keeping Tony big or giving France a free
> pass in the west
> looks like it would be advantageous to me. While you around
> Scandinavia is
> scary, I like the facts that (1) you'll be moving away even
> if it's only
> briefly, (2) that it keeps the west somewhat up for grabs and (3) you
> growing will give France something to worry about. While I
> *do* value our
> relationship, I look for moves that give a reason for both of us to be
> happy. I focused most in my last messages about why I hope taking the
> support to Kie is good for you, obviously I selfishly see it
> good for me,
> too. Den-Kie (assuming you are going to take it) is my best
> move. If you
> confirm you will be taking it, then I will confirm ordering it. Last I
> heard, Tony was still asking for Kie-Den, not Hel-Den. That
> means there is
> a chance that he will burn me and support himself in Kie, but
> I'll order the support.
I'll still get the one build & will push for KIE/HOL next year, if that
happens.
> >Promise me the Raiders will roll over like that for us next week.
>
> LOL! I can make no such guarantees, but I wouldn't bet
> against it either.
:-)
Ben
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason, I sent this on Friday, but I don't see the judge confirmation. If this
is a duplicate please excuse me. (Technically, it's slightly different than
what I sent Friday -- I made a few minor proofreading edits before resending,
but it's really the same message.)
Actually, my original proposal was that I keep Rum. I had not initially
considered that you would want Rum, so honestly had not included it. But
since it's important to you, I modified my proposal to try to take your
desire into account. The logic of my suggestion depended on the idea that we
both end up disbanding units without losing any centers, so it would have to
be you taking Rum in 05 for my plan to work.
The point of having you disband Rum and then me disband it right afterwards
is to allow both of us a "free build". Whether or not you keep Rum in '04,
you still get a build. Giving you Rum in 04 doesn't really help you against
AI (you build one with it or with out it), and it hurts me (I lose one
unit) so yes, I would want to hold Rum in 04. This lets us both rebuild right
on the front lines, which will help me get a center somewhere to make up for
the loss of Rum when it does come.
For you Bla turns into Smy, giving you support in Eas and pressure on Andy.
And even better, because you will be disbanding my F Rum before you go, you
don't have to worry about what I might do with my fleet when you vacate Bla.
Same thing for me -- it DMZes the Bla and it gives me a free unit on my front
lines in exchange for removing what is basically a useless fleet. In essence
we both get a build without having to actually gain any centers. After that,
we can still cooperate to each get at least one build off of AI. That means
three builds for you in two years (four if we get lucky and can get you Tun,
Nap or Tri in 04, all of which are real possibilities). So I really didn't
think me holding Rum in 04 would be a problem for you.
Obviously, if I'm do really well up north then I can probably give you Rum in
04. But I'm assuming I will need the rebuilt unit in the short term, so would
like to hold onto Rum in 04 so I can get enough units in place to get center
to make up for its loss when I do hand it over.
I'm hoping that being specific here about why I want Rum in 04 and why it
doesn't hurt you is helpful and not annoying. Tell me if I'm sounding too
much like a Ronco commercial or anything ("it slices, captures SCs *and*
takes out the trash!")
Have a good weekend. It sounds like it shouldn't be a problem for me to hold
F Rum in place, so I'll do that and we can continue to discuss details of 04
through the builds if you have other suggestions.
Gotta run. Let me know if I'm missing anything!
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Sorry for the long delay, but I was offline for the weekend and didn't hear
from France until last night. From what I'm hearing, Erik sounds like he's
willing to go along with everything you and I have discussed. In fact, he's
enthusiastic enough that he specifically asked that I support you Hel-Den for
what I think are obvious and selfish reasons (he wants to make sure that Hel
is not available to attack Hol). I'm not as worried about making sure he
keeps Hol :), so I'm still happy to support either Kie-Den.
I haven't sent a three way FGR message just because I've been trying to touch
base with everyone. If you want to kick off a three way message between us,
I'm fine with that.
And when I looked over your messages I noticed several references to concern
about me supporting Den-Kie. Trust me, I am not interested in seeing Ben get
a secure footing with all of those units he has threatening Scandinavia!
--- Eric
Message from Germany to France and Russia
So what is happening guys. It's a little late to start a 3 way press but
here goes.
I am quite happy to lose Holland to France. I am hoping Erik sends a signle
for France to look at MAO - IRI.
I am ordering kie - den supported by hel. If bal supports this effort then I
hope it succeeds.
I am assuming that this means nwy - swe to prevent any retreat to sweden. If
ER are against me then all I can hope for would be Holland. I think it is
worth the risk. If England grows with two units then he has to eventually
attack france or russia.
let me know and I will send in orders, I would prefer to hear from both.
Message from France to Russia
> So what is happening guys. It's a little late to start a 3 way press but
> here goes.
> I am quite happy to lose Holland to France. I am hoping Erik sends a
> signle
> for France to look at MAO - IRI.
> I am ordering kie - den supported by hel. If bal supports this effort
> then I
> hope it succeeds.
Do you think he's on the level here? I've never known Tony to be
straightforward, but his plan makes sense for him, and I don't think he
could somehow leverage us off of England to take back both Den and Hol.
What do you want to do?
Erik
Message from Russia to France
Yes, I think he's on the level. I think he's also going to try to wring
something out of Ben, but he has been much more adamant and specific about
how this could work than he has been with any previous moveset. That said, he
may just want to see us make those orders and could have some other devious
plan in mind. If that's the case, then I don't see what his alternate plan
is.
BTW, I just wrote him and told him it was fine with me if he initiated a
3-way press, which is probably why he waited until now to send it.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
> but he has been much more adamant and specific about
> how this could work than he has been with any previous moveset.
I should clarify this. In the past he's talked really casually about moves
with me, like "How about XYZ for moves?" This season he's been getting really
nitty gritty with planning and negotiating strategies; things like: "Be sure
to tell France that if England gets a build he could come after him with F
Lvp" and "be sure that England thinks you are going to support Den-Kie" (that
latter message came from him before I told Tony that I had told Ben such
things). So while he may not be being truthful about what he's going to do,
he's certainly interested in seeing us follow through with our ends of the
bargain.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Something else to consider -- if he doesn't trust me to support him, Tony may
order either Ber S Mun-Kie or Mun S Ber-Kie. If that's true, then one of us
may be able to pick up a "freebie" build if you order Bur-Mun and I order
Sil-Ber. It's a longshot, as he may just order Mun S Ber and Ber S Mun, but
we could give it a try.
Again, let me know what you think.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Jason still is talking about how he'll end up in Ser, so if you are looking
to support him there, that should still work. You still want me to move to
Vie? I'm not 100% certain I'll be able to build F Sev (if it comes to that)
but I should still have some leverage on Jason if he doesn't come through
with it.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
I cannot believe I am doing this stuff. This is SOOO not the way I play
diplomacy. I am usually very careful to (try to) set up plans where all of my
neighbors want me to do what I'm going to do (similar to my negotiations with
Erik, Ben and Tony last Fall, even though both Ben and Tony attacked me, I
was "safe" and was in a fine position to negotiate with each of them directly
afterwards). Now I am actively considering burning every diplomatic bridge
I've got to F, G and I, all the while still considering stabbing E and/or T
right afterwards. And I *still* haven't ruled out the idea of not supporting
England or Germany while attaking Ber.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> Jason still is talking about how he'll end up in Ser, so if you are looking
> to support him there, that should still work. You still want me to move to
> Vie? I'm not 100% certain I'll be able to build F Sev (if it comes to that)
> but I should still have some leverage on Jason if he doesn't come through
> with it.
I would like you to get in position to help against Andy
even if you have to take sc from me to do so, so go for
either Vie or Boh.
What do you know of Andy's plan this fall?
Philippe
Message from Russia to Italy
All he's given me about his plans was about the Spring moves, and that all
turned out to be false anyway. I would not be surprised to see him try to
keep Gre from Jason (thereby losing Ser) but I would not be stunned to see
him try to take Tri, either.
He's not asked for any specific supports from me for the Fall, but that just
means that he's not trying to take Bud off of you for the moment.
Sorry, I know that's really not much information, but that's all I've got for
now.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
@#$$%
I sent my response to your message to Andy. Dammit. I knew I was going to
blow that.
I only said that he had not asked for support against you, but I made a
comment about Ser, so he may see that coming now. Damn, damn, damn.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
Whoops!
Clearly that was not a message meant for you.
Philippe had asked what you were up to, and I was trying to be coy in
response. But I meant it to be in response to him, not to you, obviously.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Here's the response I inadvertently sent to Andy. The problem is the three
words in parentheses in the second sentence. He's smart enough to know what
that means, even though he can't defend against it.
--- Eric
>All he's given me about his plans was about the Spring moves, and that
>all turned out to be false anyway. I would not be surprised to see him
>try to keep Gre from Jason (thereby losing Ser) but I would not be
>stunned to see him try to take Tri, either.
>He's not asked for any specific supports from me for the Fall, but that
>just means that he's not trying to take Bud off of you for the moment.
>Sorry, I know that's really not much information, but that's all I've got
>for now.
Message from Russia to Austria and Turkey
Greetings neighbors.
I've already told Philippe this, but because it's a potentially big screwup
that affects, I wanted to warn you both about my recent blunder and give some
thoughts.
My error was that I inadvertently sent a message intended for Philippe about
Andy to Andy. The message didn't say much at all (because I don't know much
about what Andy is going to do) but I did have an offhand reference to Andy
losing Ser in the message. A small comment, but potentially a big deal.
It is my understanding that you two are planning to cooperate to take Ser
from Andy this Fall (this statement should not be breaking any confidences,
since I've said this to each of you privately). Other than the above snafu, I
haven't said anything about it to Andy. If you two were hoping for surprise,
that may not be much consolation. If you want to keep the surprise, it would
be sufficient for either of you to respond (if he asks) by saying that I have
been led to believe that Philippe thinks Jason is helping him with Ser,
whereas Jason has told me he's not going to.
Again, my apologies for the screw up, and I hope that this three way press
doesn't make things worse. Since I'm only reporting on my screw up and
repeating things I've said to both of you, I'm hoping this is more helpful
than hurtful.
Here's hoping you guys don't lynch me for stupidity....
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
Eric,
Well, to err is human... The problem now is that I'm
pretty sure he will try for Tri in strength. Because of
this, I will now support Adr-Tri from Vie and I need
you to leave it alone.
So, could you please confirm that you will move to
Boh then?
Philippe
Message from France to Russia
>
> Again, let me know what you think.
Not a bad idea, but we also risk puishing EG closer together if we take an
incidental stab at Germany. Hopefully, Germany will think that we're
favoring him this turn and be less likely to try to work with England
against as so soon -- he might be more likely to let England get knocked
down another peg before approaching him with a "let's settle our
differences before RF knock us out" proposal.
On the other hand, the sooner the deader, the better. If you go for it, I
will.
I'll head for Iri.
Erik
Message from France to Germany and Russia
Okay, Tony, I think we're on board for your plan. I will head for Iri and
Russia should be supporting you into Den. I'll keep Holland for now but
won't think anything ill of you if you reclaim it later.
Erik
Message from Germany to France and Russia
Good to hear. I will order hel - nth and kie - den as mentioned and spoken
of with russia.
I lose HOL or DEN or maybe both. At least this way I only lose one and gain
allies.
I just hope the pair of you leave MUN alone.
I will have ber and mun and ruh support each other. Other than that there is
not much I can do.
I did say kie - den supported by hel and hopefully bal but if RFG is
happening then hel - nth would be better for russia.
I will submit the change of orders with this press. Good luck to us all and
death to my nemisis.
Message from Turkey to Austria and Russia
No problem on the errant message. We'll stick to the plan.
jason
Message from Austria to Russia and Turkey
> No problem on the errant message. We'll stick to the plan.
Yeah, there's nothing Andy can do against my support in Ser.
Philippe
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
If you are not vacating Vie, there's no reason for me to tap it. Boh it is.
Sorry for the delayed response -- I was away at my Monday night class.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
Well, that mis-sent press screwed up my whole plan. I was counting on the
build from Vie to give me the buffer to take on Tony or Ben, wherever I
needed to be. Not getting that build really screws up that planning. (Of
course, there's no guarantee I was going to get it anyway, but I was
willing to gamble).
I still have to decide who to disappoint, but it's going to be a much
uglier game from here on out than what I was hoping for. Oh well, I'm sure
I was being too optimistic before anyway.
--- Eric
Austria: Fleet Adriatic Sea → Trieste
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Turkish Army Bulgaria → Serbia
Austria: Army Vienna SUPPORT Fleet Adriatic Sea → Trieste
England: Fleet Denmark → Kiel
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet Skagerrak → Denmark
England: Fleet Skagerrak → Denmark
France: Army Belgium SUPPORT Army Holland (*cut*)
France: Army Burgundy SUPPORT Army Belgium
France: Army Holland SUPPORT Army Belgium (*cut*)
France: Fleet Marseilles → Spain (south coast)
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Irish Sea
France: Army Paris → Gascony
Germany: Army Berlin → Silesia (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Helgoland Bight → Holland (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Kiel SUPPORT Fleet Helgoland Bight → Holland (*cut, destroyed*)
Germany: Army Munich → Silesia (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Ruhr → Belgium (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Rome → Venice
Italy: Army Serbia SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece (*cut, dislodged*)
Italy: Fleet Tunis → Ionian Sea (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Venice → Tyrolia
Russia: Fleet Baltic Sea SUPPORT English Fleet Denmark → Kiel
Russia: Army Galicia → Bohemia
Russia: Army Norway → Sweden
Russia: Fleet Rumania HOLD
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Fleet Rumania
Russia: Army Silesia → Berlin (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Ukraine → Galicia
Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea → Greece (*bounce*)
Turkey: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Constantinople → Bulgaria
Turkey: Army Bulgaria → Serbia
Turkey: Army Constantinople → Bulgaria
|