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England: Builds 2 units
France: Removes 2 units
Russia: Builds 2 units
Turkey: Removes 2 units
Message from Russia to Italy
> If you had that big a problme wiht me building you should have said it to
> me.
Had no problem with you building. Obviously, I didn't want you to go down a
unit either or I wouldn't have supported you to Smy.
> To Andy : I am uncomfortable letting you get to 6. And then bounce me in
> Trieste with Serbia, I would have reassured you I was building a fleet and
> we could have moved forward. Stab averted.
Which stab are we talking about averting, mine or yours? :) Again, I think it
would have been useful to arrange the bounce, but the first question I asked
is: what do you plan to do? When you told me that Ven S Rom-Tus was your
plan, it put any other comments from you in doubt. The only reassurance I
would get from the fleet-only build is seeing it. I doubt there was anything
you could say that would have truly reassured me given the lack of a straight
answer earlier. Again, I will acknowledge this as a flaw in my play (in
general, not just here) -- it would probably have been more productive to say
"bullshit" to your face ("buffaloshit"?) and work from there than to just
work silently from that assumption.
> Since we are living and learning. ....my moves up top are MUCH better for
> you. It gives you 3 armies in germany and you are across the stalemate
> line, you build in Warsaw, support yourself to Prussia and start taking
> English dots. While moving your units out of Turkey.
They are if you are helping me, but with Erik moving away, I don't consider
the green units mine any more. An army in Tri is looking really strongly to
me like the Balkans are up for grabs. My moves were also based on a strong
conviction that Erik was indeed still moving away from you. A conviction you
clearly shared.
> And you still have my fleets working for you in the med.
Same comment as above, though you having fleets in the med working for YOU is
still good for me. Which is why I didn't want to see you lose units. I
personally don't see this as a problem for RI cooperation towards a draw,
just towards an R solo, which I didn't think was your interest any more
anyway. But by letting you keep all of your units (even while denying you a
build) it ensures that you still have the majority say in the Med. To me that
makes RI cooperation a necessity for each of us.
Or at least, that's my thinking.
Good luck at PrezCon!
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
I am really sleep deprived. So if this doesnt have my usual cordial
polish....forgive me.
> > If you had that big a problme wiht me building you should have said it to
> > me.
>
> Had no problem with you building. Obviously, I didn't want you to go down a
> unit either or I wouldn't have supported you to Smy.
Ok.....so why did you take a dot from me.
> > To Andy : I am uncomfortable letting you get to 6. And then bounce me in
> > Trieste with Serbia, I would have reassured you I was building a fleet and
> > we could have moved forward. Stab averted.
>
> Which stab are we talking about averting, mine or yours? :)
Explain to me, how making a non supported move to one of my own dots is a
stab.
Again, I think it
> would have been useful to arrange the bounce, but the first question I asked
> is: what do you plan to do? When you told me that Ven S Rom-Tus was your
> plan, it put any other comments from you in doubt.
I dont actually think that was my answer but if it was....it was stupid of
me. I had no clue what I was going to do with Rome, Venice was always
going to Trieste.
The only reassurance I
> would get from the fleet-only build is seeing it. I doubt there was anything
> you could say that would have truly reassured me given the lack of a straight
> answer earlier. Again, I will acknowledge this as a flaw in my play (in
> general, not just here) -- it would probably have been more productive to say
> "bullshit" to your face ("buffaloshit"?) and work from there than to just
> work silently from that assumption.
Yes. You should have.
Because if saying one shaky thing to you when I wasnt even adjacent to any
of your centers, and even if I moved there, you could cover all of your
dots with your 3 spare armies in TYR, RUM and SER.
Let me give you an anology for my impression of this;
You suspect that your teenage son drinks a beer or 2 occasionally with is
friends, but when questioned about it, he doesnt give you the clearest
answer. So instead of asking him to clarify his answer, you dont want him
drinking and driving, so you blow his car up.
> > you. It gives you 3 armies in germany and you are across the stalemate
> > line, you build in Warsaw, support yourself to Prussia and start taking
> > English dots. While moving your units out of Turkey.
>
> They are if you are helping me, but with Erik moving away, I don't consider
> the green units mine any more.
First.....as I said previously. I wasnt sure Erik was really moving away,
and he didnt really move away....
He covered Tunis and hovered around me. As a matter of fact I think he
might be closer now than he was before, but I havent really looked at it.
And to answer your statement, Why not?
If you think you can solo without me, its not a horrible move, but
currently you have 2 southern fleets, and you can build one....I still
have 3 southern fleets, you are wholely unprepared to have a fight in the
Med. Especially without me or someone else with a bunch of fleets on your
side.
An army in Tri is looking really strongly to
> me like the Balkans are up for grabs. My moves were also based on a strong
> conviction that Erik was indeed still moving away from you. A conviction you
> clearly shared.
No...I clearly said that I wasnt sure whether he was moving away or not,
and he clearly didnt move very far. He covered Tunis, he didnt leave the
Med.
I covered Trieste because it was too easy for you to take it from me.
I still think you would be better off with an army in Ruhr.
And assume I make it to Trieste....you can cover all your dots...without
any real issue....what do I start that fight.
> > And you still have my fleets working for you in the med.
>
> Same comment as above, though you having fleets in the med working for YOU is
> still good for me. Which is why I didn't want to see you lose units. I
> personally don't see this as a problem for RI cooperation towards a draw,
> just towards an R solo, which I didn't think was your interest any more
> anyway.
As I said before, and I will repeat. Erik hasnt moved very far yet.
But by letting you keep all of your units (even while denying you a
> build) it ensures that you still have the majority say in the Med. To me that
> makes RI cooperation a necessity for each of us.
I think we should definitely continue to work together. Getting me to 6
would make it a whole lot easier to move toward France.
> Or at least, that's my thinking.
>
> Good luck at PrezCon!
Thanks
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
This time I will try to be as straightforward as I can. I don't believe
almost any of the assertions you make in your last few messages. I had spent
about 40 minutes responding to your latest message, but I just got to a point
where it's absurd. I am literally laughing out loud while reading some of
your comments.
Andy, there is just no way that you believe what you are telling me. And,
when it gets right down to it, that is why we're talking past each other. You
are trying to convince me of something that I cannot be convinced of -- even
if I'm wrong. I find the discussion fun -- really, I'm not angry at all --
but we're not being productive either.
I'll cull out the chaff from my longer message and just pull out the main
points (yes, this is the *short* version of my press!):
> Because if saying one shaky thing to you when I wasnt even adjacent to any
> of your centers, and even if I moved there, you could cover all of your
> dots with your 3 spare armies in TYR, RUM and SER.
Your move suggestions were: Tyr-Mun, Rum-Ukr, and Ser-Bul, along with Ven S
Rom-Tus. Most of these were stated twice, some three times. If any one of
these moves were successful, those armies wouldn't be looking quite so
"spare" any more.
You could not have overlooked this outcome, and your refusal to acknowledge
what would have resulted from your move suggestions makes me more, not less,
comfortable with the decision not to call you on it in advance. You can
justify your intent all you like, but you can read a board ten times as well
as I can, and you cannot rationalize the moves you recommended as "harmless",
"shaky" or "easy to recover from" for me.
If Erik did attack you, it would still be easy to help me against him, yes,
but if he backs off, you have picked up position against me and can force me
to concede parts of Turkey and much of the Balkans. And if you really wanted
to help me in the north, then Ven-Tyl is the correct move, not Ven-Tri. A
unit in Tri makes zero difference to any situation except RI.
I'm not angry about your choices -- they make perfect sense to me. But this
has got to be what you were thinking strategy-wise, and this ongoing argument
that moving to Tri was to help me, as well as some of the other move
suggestions you made, just doesn't hold up.
> > When you told me it [Ven] was supporting Rom-Tus
>
> I dont actually think that was my answer but if it was....it was stupid of
> me. I had no clue what I was going to do with Rome, Venice was always
> going to Trieste.
I was also confident that Venice was always going to Trieste. That's the
problem. You twice clearly stated it was supporting Rom-Tus. I'm not going to
get into an argument over this: it was the reason I doubted you, and I reread
those messages several times to ensure I hadn't mistaken your suggestions. My
response to first message was my "what is your goal?" press, which you
responded to by repeating the Rom-Tus suggestions. If those two presses were
both mistakes, they were the mistakes that led to my decision to take Tri.
And I still don't believe either was an oversight.
> He covered Tunis and hovered around me. As a matter of fact I think he
> might be closer now than he was before, but I havent really looked at it.
This was actually the point where I started laughing out loud. :) And he's
disbanding two too boot.
> If you think you can solo without me, its not a horrible move, but
> currently you have 2 southern fleets, and you can build one....I still
> have 3 southern fleets, you are wholely unprepared to have a fight in the
> Med. Especially without me or someone else with a bunch of fleets on your
> side.
I don't think I can solo without you. As I said, I kept you from dropping
units because I know you need to have a decent position. I was trying to open
up discussion of 3way compatible moves that still give me a hope of a solo
when it became clear that Erik was backing off last season. You claimed you
were going after Erik still, so I unilaterally made moves that kept you
strong enough to operate in the Med and still fight for the 3way, but also
kept me in the more dominant position in RI.
And finally, if you really are focused on Erik, then the lack of a build
doesn't matter. I don't need centers beyond Italian ones to solo, and you
don't need more units to ensure I get to them. So again, your concern that I
took (or might take) Tri shows that you are not still focused on Erik, but
are rather looking to strengthen your position relative to me.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
You make several good points.
I can understand why my assertations could sound contrary.
I was taking them in segments.....and looking at them individually. But
coupled together, they sound nigh unto ridiculous.
Assuming Turkey keeps BLA or ANK, I will start moving my units toward
France.....immediately.
Is it possible to leave my dots alone in the short term.
Message from Russia to Italy
> Is it possible to leave my dots alone in the short term.
Absolutely. That was my plan all along (though that may now sound contrary to
you). I said a few presses ago that you working for YOUR own good in the Med
is good for me. Nothing I see changes my mind now. It would take me a long
time to get into the Med and set up to defend it. Taking dots from you just
ensures that it's that much harder for me to get to the Med (unless I come up
with a way to get *all* of them at once, but that's more your forte than
mine!)
I will probably still build a southern fleet to ensure that I can defend the
Bla, and it does prep later movement into the Med if it comes to that.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
> > Is it possible to leave my dots alone in the short term.
>
> Absolutely. That was my plan all along (though that may now sound contrary to
> you). I said a few presses ago that you working for YOUR own good in the Med
> is good for me. Nothing I see changes my mind now. It would take me a long
> time to get into the Med and set up to defend it. Taking dots from you just
> ensures that it's that much harder for me to get to the Med (unless I come up
> with a way to get *all* of them at once, but that's more your forte than
> mine!)
I see what you are saying. And it would be damn tough to get all my dots
at once.
Ok.....one thing....And I hope you are ok with it....
I would like to get to 6. Six feels like safety to me.
I will move off toward the French, and if you can give me a dot back for
Trieste, I would appreciate it. And I have a plan if you are willing to
listen.
take care
Andy
Message from Italy to England
Ben
> > Im off to PrezCon, my contact will be sporadic,
> > but give me your thoughts.
Thanks I finished in a tie for 4th.
I am reconciling a couple of things with Eric.
I want to see the French disbands but you will likely see my help with
France.
Andy
Message from Russia to Italy
> I will move off toward the French, and if you can give me a dot back for
> Trieste, I would appreciate it. And I have a plan if you are willing to
> listen.
I've been thinking that I would probably offer you Bul(sc), since that
doesn't threaten me and it also helps to pin the likely raider in place. At
the same time, if that doesn't work out, I could see giving you Con in Fall
for similar reasons, though Bul(sc) gives me more warm and fuzziness. And
I'll probably want at least one of those dots back as you start making gains
against France.
But all that said, I am always open to hearing ideas, even if I just end up
ranting back at you about them in the end. :) I know you'd never be able to
tell from this game, but discussing the ideas is actually my favorite part of
the game. As much as I think of myself as "classical", Karlis has finally
forced me to admit that I'm really a "club" player at heart. So discussing
ideas is the best part of the game to me.
Oh, and looking at the board more closely, I don't think I need to build a
fleet at this point. I'll still build in Sev, but since I'm not getting out
into the Med anytime soon, I don't think F Sev is particularly pressing at
this point.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
> > I will move off toward the French, and if you can give me a dot back for
> > Trieste, I would appreciate it. And I have a plan if you are willing to
> > listen.
>
> I've been thinking that I would probably offer you Bul(sc), since that
> doesn't threaten me and it also helps to pin the likely raider in place. At
> the same time, if that doesn't work out, I could see giving you Con in Fall
> for similar reasons, though Bul(sc) gives me more warm and fuzziness. And
> I'll probably want at least one of those dots back as you start making gains
> against France.
When did we start sharing a brain.
My plan is to move SMY - CON and then to BUL(SC) in the fall.
Greece will head out toward France now.
>
> Oh, and looking at the board more closely, I don't think I need to build a
> fleet at this point. I'll still build in Sev, but since I'm not getting out
> into the Med anytime soon, I don't think F Sev is particularly pressing at
> this point.
Excellent.
Andy
England: BUILD Army Edinburgh
England: BUILD Army London
France: REMOVE Army Burgundy
France: REMOVE Army Marseilles
Russia: BUILD Army Sevastopol
Russia: BUILD Army Warsaw
Turkey: REMOVE Army Ankara
Turkey: REMOVE Fleet Black Sea
Centers
England: 11
France: 5
Italy: 5
Russia: 12
Turkey: 1
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