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England: Fleet Berlin can retreat to Kiel
Message from Russia to France
Well, I'm not sure how to read those moves! Given our lack of coordination,
I guess it was good that I bounced Ion, but maybe I should have let you in.
Any chance I can interest you in taking Andy's centers instead of pressing
east? At this point I'm pretty well boxed in. I figure we're looking at an
EFR three way, and having those raiding Italian units removed is probably
worth not having to spend the extra 3-6 turns chasing them down and
eliminating them.
Whatcha think?
--- Eric
Message from England to France
Erik -
I got a note from Andy that suggests to me he's worried you're going to
attack him.
I have no idea what made him think this, but if you were thinking about it,
let me say, I don't think now is the time. Unfortunately I lost BER, which
means the Italian centers are extremely important, and for now the presence
of the Turkish fleet means we need Andy around - you may not be able to
protect the Italian centers *and* hold of the RT in the south.
I am of course not wedded to this long-term - I don't care to have a 4- or
5- way draw - but if you are planning on simplifying by eliminating Italy,
let's coordinate and discuss first.
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
Fellas,
We have several options this fall, and one of our choices affects the
retreats, so I will bring this up.
If we are going to try to take Munich, we need to retreat to Kiel, if we
are not, we need to retreat off the board.
There are MANY options here, I think the best option is to retreat off the
board and position for next year. I could also use a build.
It might be useful if Erik mentions to Eric that you are supporting me to
MUN, that will tie down a bunch of units and give me a shot to walk into
Vienna
But we should talk about this.
Andy
Message from France to England and Italy
Well, the loss of Berlin was unfortunate, but we're not in too bad a
position. Russia is basically at 17 (he can take Smyrna whenever he
chooses), so we need to move carefully.
We can and will take one of the following: Munich, Venice, Trieste, or
Vienna. He's going to have consider defenses against all of those, and he
doesn't have the power to hold them all. We also need to take Ion before
he gets Bul to Greece.
My recommendation would be: Rom - Ven, Tyr S Rom - Ven, Adr S Tun - Ion,
Lyo - Tus. Ber should retreat to Kiel to force a vigorous defense of
Munich on his part. Up north, Ben takes Fin.
Thoughts?
Erik
Message from Italy to England and France
> We can and will take one of the following: Munich, Venice, Trieste, or
> Vienna. He's going to have consider defenses against all of those, and he
> doesn't have the power to hold them all. We also need to take Ion before
> he gets Bul to Greece.
We will take VEN and maybe Vienna,Trieste or Mun. STP is guaranteed.
> My recommendation would be: Rom - Ven, Tyr S Rom - Ven, Adr S Tun - Ion,
> Lyo - Tus.
And with this set of move I might have to disband...sorry, not happening
right now, I am losing Bul, I am not going to risk that.
Ber should retreat to Kiel to force a vigorous defense of
> Munich on his part. Up north, Ben takes Fin.
>
Berlin is a fleet...it has zero bearing on Munich, and STP is guaranteed
Swe - Fin
Lvn - Mos
Nwy - Stp
Bar s Nwy - Stp
Nth - Nwy.....
Done deal.
Message from England to France and Italy
Gentlemen -
If I order the retreat to KIE then we can try to put an army in behind it,
and just pull it out to DEN or HEL in the fall, right? So doesn't
retreating make sense? I'd originally been thinking of disbanding - I feel
like I'm making myself crazy over this one stupid thing - input is welcome.
Ben
Message from France to England and Italy
> We will take VEN and maybe Vienna,Trieste or Mun. STP is guaranteed.
>
Mun, Tri and Vienna are longshots at best, but we should take Venice.
> > My recommendation would be: Rom - Ven, Tyr S Rom - Ven, Adr S Tun -
> Ion,
> > Lyo - Tus.
> And with this set of move I might have to disband...sorry, not happening
> right now, I am losing Bul, I am not going to risk that.
>
The only way to guarantee Venice (and avoid a disband) is to attack or
support with your fleet (or attack from Tyr, which I'm assuming is not an
option). The problem with using Adr for that (and I'm not saying it's a
deal breaker, just something to think about) is that it risks halting our
fleet progression eastward. We can order Tys - Ion, Adr S Tys - Ion, Tun S
Tys - Ion, Lyo - Tys, and that guarantees long-term possession of Ion for
our side. What's more, once we take Ion, Adr is free to attack Tri, Alb or
maybe Gre, as Tun and Tys can support Ion against Gre / Aeg / Eas
indefinitely. If he slips Bul - Gre, then Adr, Tys and Tun are all
necessary for a continued bounce in Ion, and they're all locked up.
See what I mean?
> Berlin is a fleet...it has zero bearing on Munich, and STP is guaranteed
You're right, my mistake. I had forgotten when looking at the map.
> Swe - Fin
> Lvn - Mos
> Nwy - Stp
> Bar s Nwy - Stp
> Nth - Nwy.....
>
> Done deal.
>
Yes.
Erik
Message from Italy to England and France
> > We will take VEN and maybe Vienna,Trieste or Mun. STP is guaranteed.
> >
>
> Mun, Tri and Vienna are longshots at best, but we should take Venice.
Munich can be guaranteed, unless he wants to take HUGE chances.
> > > My recommendation would be: Rom - Ven, Tyr S Rom - Ven, Adr S Tun -
> > Ion,
> > > Lyo - Tus.
> > And with this set of move I might have to disband...sorry, not happening
> > right now, I am losing Bul, I am not going to risk that.
> The only way to guarantee Venice (and avoid a disband) is to attack or
> support with your fleet (or attack from Tyr, which I'm assuming is not an
> option).
Correct.
The problem with using Adr for that (and I'm not saying it's a
> deal breaker, just something to think about) is that it risks halting our
> fleet progression eastward. We can order Tys - Ion, Adr S Tys - Ion, Tun S
> Tys - Ion, Lyo - Tys, and that guarantees long-term possession of Ion for
> our side.
Correct. And it gives me a 50-50 on disbanding one of my 3 units.
Erik....think about what you are asking me to do, and tell me if you would
do it in my shoes....
Support a guy to surround your own position, where you can potentially
only have 2 units at the end of Fall and he has supported attacks on both
remaining dots.
What's more, once we take Ion, Adr is free to attack Tri, Alb or
> maybe Gre, as Tun and Tys can support Ion against Gre / Aeg / Eas
> indefinitely. If he slips Bul - Gre,
He doesnt own GRE yet, and if he wants to guarantee SMY he has to use
AEG....I think you are pretty safe in getting to the ION.
then Adr, Tys and Tun are all
> necessary for a continued bounce in Ion, and they're all locked up.
Well....if we get me a build, I build in NAP and we force the ION in the
spring.
Would you agree that BOH has to cover Vienna?? If you can agree with that,
then we can force MUN and STP and VEN, I can build and we forced the ION
in the spring.
Andy
Message from England to France and Italy
> The problem with using Adr for that (and I'm not saying it's a
> > deal breaker, just something to think about) is that it risks halting
our
> > fleet progression eastward. We can order Tys - Ion, Adr S Tys - Ion,
Tun S
> > Tys - Ion, Lyo - Tys, and that guarantees long-term possession of Ion
for
> > our side.
>
> Correct. And it gives me a 50-50 on disbanding one of my 3 units.
They are both reasonable choices, far from my theater.
I do not see a stong tactical advantage to one or the other - they each
have risk & payoff - but I do not want to see rifts in our alliance right
now. We are in the same sandbox, and I think if one of us has strong
feelings one way or another on a particular move, we should try to honor
that sentiment if at all possible. I am trying to be accommodating & I
hope the both of you can do the same.
In other words - let's go with Andy's proposal, so Andy doesn't explode.
If Andy's proposal were unreasonable, then I would feel differently. But
with two reasonable proposals on the table, and one of them offensive to
one of our number, I think we should go with the other.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
I think in the end we will see a REF draw. But it's a close call for right
now - let's not make things more risky than necessary, is my thinking.
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
> I do not see a stong tactical advantage to one or the other - they each
> have risk & payoff - but I do not want to see rifts in our alliance right
> now. We are in the same sandbox, and I think if one of us has strong
> feelings one way or another on a particular move, we should try to honor
> that sentiment if at all possible. I am trying to be accommodating & I
> hope the both of you can do the same.
Yes.
> In other words - let's go with Andy's proposal, so Andy doesn't explode.
Thank you.
> If Andy's proposal were unreasonable, then I would feel differently. But
> with two reasonable proposals on the table, and one of them offensive to
> one of our number, I think we should go with the other.
With the whole plan?
Message from France to England and Italy
>
> In other words - let's go with Andy's proposal, so Andy doesn't explode.
> If Andy's proposal were unreasonable, then I would feel differently.
> But
> with two reasonable proposals on the table, and one of them offensive to
> one of our number, I think we should go with the other.
>
I'm fine with that. My analysis is driven by my role in this operation,
which is to flood the Mediterannean with naval power and prevent Russia
from breaking out past Ion -- we will be in trouble if he does. Obviously,
I'm willing to sacrifice some gains there to keep Andy alive, since his
centers push Russia well past 18.
And I agree that St. P is a high probability. What about Munich? It seems
unlikely without support from Tyr.
Erik
Message from Italy to England and France
>
> I'm fine with that. My analysis is driven by my role in this operation,
> which is to flood the Mediterannean with naval power and prevent Russia
> from breaking out past Ion -- we will be in trouble if he does. Obviously,
> I'm willing to sacrifice some gains there to keep Andy alive, since his
> centers push Russia well past 18.
>
And I appreciate that.
> And I agree that St. P is a high probability. What about Munich? It seems
> unlikely without support from Tyr.
STP is guaranteed.
Munich is virtually guaranteed if Tyrolia is the mover.
Tyr - Mun
Ruh s Tyr - Mun
Bur s Tyr - Mun
Kie - Ber
Bal s Kie - Ber
Hol - Kie
Unless Eric ignores protecting Vienna and Warsaw, Tyr - Mun works. If Tyr
is used in support, Ven - Tyr can cut support and its unlikely to work.
Nwy - Stp
Nth - Nwy
Bar s Nwy - Stp
Swe - Fin
Lvn - Mos
works everyday.
I build a fleet in Naples, even though I think an army might be better,
and we support you to ION in the spring.
Andy
England: Fleet Berlin → Kiel
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