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Message from Italy to Austria
> Andy,
>
> Any suggestion?
>
Question for you.
If you have to lose a dot, who would you prefer to lose it to,
Russia, Turkey or me.
I think that we MUST get Turkey and Russia fighting.
Offer Turkey Trieste if he will not support Budapest. Tell him you would
prefer he got your dots than the Russian. He seems to bite on things like
that.
Tell him I am supporting Vienna or playing with Munich or whatnot.
you order
Tri - Bud
Vie s Tri - Bud
Alb s Ion - Gre
Tyr - Tri
Ion - Gre
I will let the russian know that I am moving Ion...which he will relay to
the Turk and he will try to take Ion with Gre as the supporting unit.
I will also try to get Russia to tap Bul...on principle.
How does that sound.
Message from Austria to Italy
> How does that sound.
Sound like a good plan. I will check to see
if Turkey is biting and get back to you.
Message from Austria to Turkey
Well,
Can't say that I'm please with how things turn out, at least
Andy didn't stab me for once. You obviously didn't care
for my last offer, but what about the following? Let me get
back Bud and take Tri for yourself instead.
Philippe
Message from Italy to Austria
> > How does that sound.
>
> Sound like a good plan. I will check to see
> if Turkey is biting and get back to you.
Thanks...
I think it helps us both.
Message from Russia to Austria
> Come on, I was pretty clear about my intent and you knew
> I wasn't a threat for you. That's what made it easy for you to
> proceed without covering Gal.
I wasn't disiagreeing with the "not a threat" point. I agree, and I don't
think I said anything to contradict that in my message to you. My concern was
your plan to support Turkey to Rum in Fall -- that would mean a full year of
me holding in place, and unless I missed it we didn't talk about how we would
progress beyond that point. In that sense I'm disagreeing with the "pretty
clear about my [your] intent" statement. If you said something that you
thought made it clear how we would cooperate in Fall or next year, then I
missed it and I apologize -- I honestly did try to figure out what we would
do. What I thought I heard from you is that you would want to cooperate with
Turkey against me in Fall (making sure it was unsuccessful), and that you
were not interested in cooperative moves this year regardless of what
happened with the Spring moves.
On Ser -- would you be willing to accept my support into Ser this Fall
(instead of vice-versa), and then have me vacate in Spring of next season?
There's more opportunity for your growth that way. It looks like Andy will be
leaving you alone for at least a season, so that should give you the
flexibility to retake Bud without pressure. This is not a demand, just a
request.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> On Ser -- would you be willing to accept my support into Ser this Fall
> (instead of vice-versa), and then have me vacate in Spring of next season?
> There's more opportunity for your growth that way. It looks like Andy will be
> leaving you alone for at least a season, so that should give you the
> flexibility to retake Bud without pressure. This is not a demand, just a
> request.
I'm not interested as I wouldn't able to support myself.
Message from Russia to Austria
I can see that (the concern about self support). So what do you think the
odds are that you can get Andy to support you to Gre? If you can and it
works, you could actually end up building one this Fall, with an open home
center in which to do it.
I'd be left with a unit that I can't support, but that's okay; I wouldn't be
looking to hold Ser for the purpose of getting a build or a unit anyway.
Assuming you get a build or move Vie-Bud, I would expect you to take Ser next
year anyway (unless you needed it to help you get you into Gre), and would
hand it over voluntarily.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> I can see that (the concern about self support). So what do you think the
> odds are that you can get Andy to support you to Gre? If you can and it
> works, you could actually end up building one this Fall, with an open home
> center in which to do it.
I'm walking on eggs with Andy, so I don't really know.
> I'd be left with a unit that I can't support, but that's okay; I wouldn't be
> looking to hold Ser for the purpose of getting a build or a unit anyway.
> Assuming you get a build or move Vie-Bud, I would expect you to take Ser next
> year anyway (unless you needed it to help you get you into Gre), and would
> hand it over voluntarily.
Just so we're clear, you'r ok with getting Ser instead of Bud?
Message from Russia to Austria
> Just so we're clear, you'r ok with getting Ser instead of Bud?
Well, I'll be as explicit as I can in response. I honestly would prefer to
have Ser instead of Bud, because I think it would piss you off less. What is
that IA move -- the Blue something Lepanto, where Italy moves Ven-Tri-Ser and
continue to cooperate? That's what I'd like to do here.
However, to expose all of my selfishness and paranoia, Bud-Ser is a much more
dangerous move for me for all sorts of obvious reasons (tell me if they are
not obvious, I'm not trying to be cryptic). From a security point of view I
would *much* prefer to have Bud support you to Ser and then just have it as a
fait accompli that you are going to retake Bud next season There is
absolutely nothing I can do to stop you, and if I attacked Jason (directly or
by supporting you) I don't see that your army would be in any danger. You
don't think he'd accept my support of Bul-Ser right after I helped you
disband his army in Ser, do you?
So my strong request and large preference is that I support you to Ser, and
hand over Bud next season. I know it represents me taking advantage of your
moves, but it DOES allow us to work together, and allows us both some
assurance. Yes I could stab you and not support, but frankly, I don't need to
lie to you to do that. With RT forces, there's too few units to allow you to
take Bud back if Ser supports it, so Tri-Ser makes sense to try to cut
support for Gre in any case.
If we did this and you end up in Gre, you would be able to build in Tri, and
my army Bud can move out and help you (because again, resistance would be
futile). This is essentially the plan I argued for last season: I move
forward to help you bring pressure, but you get the gains in the Balkans over
both Andy and Jason. I just want to see some forward progress come out of the
AR cooperation.
Finally, as to Andy: I think you can cooperate with him in Fall. He claims
that at this point he will not attack you until he can be sure that RT is not
going to roll him over. I believe that will not attack you this Fall, because
that helps my position too much. I also believe that he will cooperate with
you against Turkey this Fall (though you two will have to work out who moves
and who supports if you try to take Gre).
Now I will be completely honest: his logic for asking me to attack Turkey is
to make him free to attack you (well, you AND Turkey). So my guess is he
gives you a free pass this season, then when he sees you and I attack Turkey,
he will probably think that he "controlled" us both and that he'll be able to
manipulate us into attacking each other next year. So I think we could take
Ser and still be in a position to take Andy by surprise next season.
I'm sure this is waaay too long, but I'm trying to be clear that what I am
arguing for now is completely consistent with what I was trying to negotiate
(and failed to acheive) in Spring: that we both press south, and keep Andy
stunted or get you centers from him as we cooperate against Jason. Even the
move to Bud is consistent with the arguments I made -- even though it was
definitely not pro-Austria -- given your stated intent to support Turkey for
show in Fall. I am not changing my desires on you, I am just trying to keep
things moving in the direction I've been arguing for all along.
Back to the original question of would I accept Ser instead of Bud? Well, the
move makes me much more nervous than giving you Bud, so I'd be much more
enthusiastic to support you there. Obviously, I'd rather convince you that it
makes more sense for you to take Ser (which I think is true). But if it comes
out that you are only willing to cooperate if I take Ser, then I'm not going
to try to force your hand because I just don't have the leverage. But you can
count on more messages trying to convince you that you taking Ser is the
right way to go if that happens.
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Austria
Bud for Tri? That sounds like a decent deal, but I'm a little skeptical.
Eric mentioned that you said something to him about me attacking Rum. If
you want to retain your homeland, spilling the beans like that won't help.
If I help you this turn, will you keep it to yourself?
jason
Message from Russia to all
The holiday season is upon me in about half an hour when I will be leaving
for this year's family get togethers.
The conditions in the gathering place are so primitive that neither a TiVo
nor a network connection is available, so unless someone wants to call me on
the phone (and there is no answering machine there either!) I will not be
available for negotiations until I return late Sunday or early Monday.
Happy (early) holidays everyone!
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Austria
Philippe,
What are you talks with Turkey consisting of, he just sent me a note as if
he had spoken to you, but wouldnt commit to anything concrete.
What did you tell him about us.
Andy
Message from Italy to Austria
Philippe,
What is Jason telling you he is doing?
thanks
Andy
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
Keep the faith - it was comforting to see Andy supporting you in VIE. Try
for BUD, who knows what might happen.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Bud for Tri? That sounds like a decent deal, but I'm a little skeptical.
> Eric mentioned that you said something to him about me attacking Rum. If
> you want to retain your homeland, spilling the beans like that won't help.
>
> If I help you this turn, will you keep it to yourself?
What kind of question is this! Seriously, do I look
like someone who can afford to screw people off?
Philippe
Message from Austria to Russia
Eric,
I haven't had much time, but I can assure you
that I'm not going to try for Ser himself. So,
let's go with my suggestion instead. As for
Andy, I still have to check with him regarding
his fleets movements.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Italy
> What are you talks with Turkey consisting of, he just sent me a note as if
> he had spoken to you, but wouldnt commit to anything concrete.
>
> What did you tell him about us.
All I said was that I was happy to see you didn't
attack me and asked him if he wanted to go for
Tri and let me get Bud back.
I'm still unsure of what he wants to do.
Philippe
Message from Austria to England
> Keep the faith - it was comforting to see Andy supporting you in VIE. Try
> for BUD, who knows what might happen.
Must I understand from this that you are working
with Andy against France and that Russia can wait?
I hope not as this would mean that Russia is free to
do as he please with me
Message from Austria to all
Hi all,
I don't know for the rest of you, but I'm not going to be
available from the december 24 to sometime after
january first because of the holydays, so an extension of
the next dl to january 6 would be appreciated.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year in advance,
Philippe
Message from Austria to Russia
> I haven't had much time, but I can assure you
> that I'm not going to try for Ser himself. So,
wrote this too quickly, should read: try for Ser
"myself" instead. Must really be getting tired!
Message from Italy to Austria
> > What are you talks with Turkey consisting of, he just sent me a note as if
> > he had spoken to you, but wouldnt commit to anything concrete.
> >
> > What did you tell him about us.
>
> All I said was that I was happy to see you didn't
> attack me and asked him if he wanted to go for
> Tri and let me get Bud back.
>
> I'm still unsure of what he wants to do.
He tells me that he is going to back out and give me Greece, I dont
neccesarily beleive him.
Do I still have Albania's support to Greece?
And do you want me to go to Trieste with Tyrolia or something
else....basically the units is yours to order.
Andy
Message from Austria to Italy
> He tells me that he is going to back out and give me Greece, I dont
> neccesarily beleive him.
>
> Do I still have Albania's support to Greece?
Yes, or anything else you might like me to order for
this fleet by the way.
> And do you want me to go to Trieste with Tyrolia or something
> else....basically the units is yours to order.
For the moment yes as I'm still hoping that Jason
will go for it; but just in case it appear not to be
likely, it would be a good thing to check what
Tony's plans are.
Philippe
Message from Italy to Austria
> > He tells me that he is going to back out and give me Greece, I dont
> > neccesarily beleive him.
> >
> > Do I still have Albania's support to Greece?
>
> Yes, or anything else you might like me to order for
> this fleet by the way.
Thank you
>
> > And do you want me to go to Trieste with Tyrolia or something
> > else....basically the units is yours to order.
>
> For the moment yes as I'm still hoping that Jason
> will go for it; but just in case it appear not to be
> likely, it would be a good thing to check what
> Tony's plans are.
I will put in my orders as this, and set wait while I wait for Tony to
return the note I will send him.
Andy
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
>> Keep the faith - it was comforting to see Andy supporting you in VIE. Try
>> for BUD, who knows what might happen.
>
> Must I understand from this that you are working
> with Andy against France and that Russia can wait?
> I hope not as this would mean that Russia is free to
> do as he please with me
I'm not sure how you draw this conclusion - I was trying to send alittle holiday cheer & not meaning to say much. I just hadn't heard from you in awhile.
Andy is as usual vague about his intentions and I have no plans with him right now.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> I'm not sure how you draw this conclusion - I was trying to send alittle holiday cheer & not meaning to say much. I just hadn't
heard from you in awhile.
>
> Andy is as usual vague about his intentions and I have no plans with him right now.
Sorry, but I was disappointed not to see you move
against Russia last turn. I suppose that you couldn't
be sure of France at the time, but with your hello
that didn't mention anything regarding a move on
Russia, I got worried.
Regards,
Philippe
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Thanks for the clarification. Your first message had me mystified. :)
Can you explain why you moving to Ser is unacceptable? I understand that you
don't want to lose a home SC, and I can believe that you don't really trust
me to give it back, (though as I've noted, I'm not going to have a choice in
that), but I'd like to understand your thinking.
I've got to run to a meeting, so I'm going to keep this message short. I'll
be back this afternoon.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> Can you explain why you moving to Ser is unacceptable? I understand that you
> don't want to lose a home SC, and I can believe that you don't really trust
> me to give it back, (though as I've noted, I'm not going to have a choice in
> that), but I'd like to understand your thinking.
My concern are even more short term. Tri-Ser exposed
me too much to try it after having been dislodged from
Bud.
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
I really do understand your concern, since it's basically the same as mine.
If you move, then your unit is in danger from RI or RT cooperation. If I
move, then Tri and Vie can coordinate to oust me. And you justly feel that
since I was the one that violated your trust, I should be the one to take the
risk. The thing that makes it difficult for me is that if we don't come to
any agreement, then in theory I do as well as if we do (it's one center for
me either way). That's why I was hoping you'd be willing to risk being the
mover, and why I'm being unusually pushy about asking for it.
Again, my thinking with Tri-Ser is that next year you would be able to press
to Bul and possibly Gre. But let's assume that I am the mover. If I move
Bud-Ser in Fall, how would you want to cooperate next year? With me in Ser
and you in Tri/Vie, how would we press forward?
As I've said several times now, and you are probably sick of hearing by now,
I really want to cooperate with you. I just want to be sure that what we're
doing is actually leading to cooperation that can be ongoing.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> Again, my thinking with Tri-Ser is that next year you would be able to press
> to Bul and possibly Gre. But let's assume that I am the mover. If I move
> Bud-Ser in Fall, how would you want to cooperate next year? With me in Ser
> and you in Tri/Vie, how would we press forward?
>
> As I've said several times now, and you are probably sick of hearing by now,
> I really want to cooperate with you. I just want to be sure that what we're
> doing is actually leading to cooperation that can be ongoing.
I don't have much time and I don't care to elaborate game
long strategy with someone who just took over part of my
homeland. If you really want to work with me, I'm sure a
way can be found to make it happen, the most obvious
being attacking Turkey in the Balkans and at home while
Italy is ousted of Venice with Munich's help.
Anyway, I guess Bud will tell me how much you want to
work with me.
Philippe
Message from Russia to Austria
Clearly I'm annoying you and I'm sorry about that. My understanding from last
season was that you were unwilling to talk about attacking Turkey if it had a
chance of giving Andy room to grow. As I've tried to explain, that was the
only reason I moved as I did.
I'm not trying to get you to divulge your gamelong plan, I'm just trying to
understand how we'd cooperate if you were not willing to work against Turkey.
Your last message implies that you are not averse to working against Turkey,
which is a lot of what I have been trying to figure out. Remember it was you
that pointed out how odd it would be for me to figure out your goals given
that you are aiding RT.
So does this mean you are ordering Tri S Bud-Ser?
--- Eric
Austria: Fleet Albania SUPPORT Italian Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece
Austria: Army Trieste → Budapest (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Vienna SUPPORT Army Trieste → Budapest
England: Fleet English Channel → Belgium
England: Fleet Helgoland Bight SUPPORT Fleet Kiel → Holland
England: Fleet Irish Sea → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
England: Fleet Kiel → Holland
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet English Channel → Belgium
France: Army Belgium SUPPORT Army Holland (*cut, dislodged*)
France: Army Burgundy → Munich (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Gulf of Lyon → Western Mediterranean (*bounce*)
France: Army Holland SUPPORT English Fleet Kiel (*void, destroyed*)
France: Army Marseilles → Piedmont
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Brest
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) SUPPORT Fleet Gulf of Lyon → Western Mediterranean
Germany: Army Berlin → Kiel
Germany: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Berlin → Kiel
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece
Italy: Army Rome → Tuscany
Italy: Fleet Tunis → Western Mediterranean (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Tyrolia → Trieste (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea SUPPORT Fleet Tunis → Western Mediterranean
Russia: Fleet Baltic Sea → Denmark
Russia: Army Budapest HOLD
Russia: Army Munich SUPPORT German Army Berlin → Kiel (*cut*)
Russia: Army Norway → Sweden
Russia: Fleet Rumania → Sevastopol
Russia: Army Sevastopol → Ukraine
Russia: Army Silesia SUPPORT Army Munich
Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea → Eastern Mediterranean
Turkey: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Bulgaria → Rumania
Turkey: Army Bulgaria → Rumania
Turkey: Fleet Greece → Aegean Sea
Turkey: Army Serbia SUPPORT Russian Army Budapest
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