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Message from Russia to England and Italy
Gentlemen,
My apologies. It seems that I've been played for
a sucker, and I fell for it.
Nick.
Message from France to England, Italy, and Russia
I can't seem to get to my e-mail account. I am sending this note via
another route, but cannot get messages. I am not sure what is wrong and
when it will be fixed.
--Prince Boar
Message from England to France, Italy, and Russia
OK, I'll bite. I am now setting draw.
Ivy
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>My apologies. It seems that I've been played for
>a sucker, and I fell for it.
Restrain. Restrain.
**********************
I was surprised a bit by your retreat orders. As I was opening them, I
rather expected to see three disbands to make France's victory easier. Is
the survival instinct still present?
I can support you into Munich, if you wish, with both Berlin and
Ruhr. Russia could cover Kiel (in exchange for Belgium). If I have to
retreat from Ruhr, I can then retreat to Holland. If we take Munich, then
France would have to come up with nine supply centers in the
southeast. That might not be so easy.
All this assumes that you feel you are willing to fight on.
I haven't written to Russia yet. It is possible that this is just one more
attempt to "cooperate" for the purpose of learning your moves.
Ivy
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
> My apologies. It seems that I've been played for a sucker, and I fell
> for it.
Could you be a little more specific? What were you expecting this turn
that didn't happen?
If we take Munich, with Italian help, then France will need nine centers in
the southeast. That might not be so easy.
Ivy
Message from France to England
Ivy:
See I told you that tactics was not my strength. I
thought I had the convoy to Belgium stopped. Like a
goofball I assumed that it was going through the North
Sea and support by the Channel. Nice job.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
>Well, I'm confused... Care to explain?
paranoia on my part. I am not comfortable putting my
head in a ER noose after Italy is eliminated.
I also do not trust what Italy is doing, hence I am
trying to eliminate him as quickly as possible.
--Xavier
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I am open for suggestions. Obviously my plan in the
Spring was flawed. Of course, you were suppose to go to
Arm and BlS and not go to Vie. :-) My fault for not
actively coordinating with you I guess.
I figure the game is in your hands. I am willing to
coordinate my moves with you complete and risk your using
that against me. If you do, Russia will have a huge
advantage in that I am better positioned to deny England
growth than Russia. Hence I am willing to risk that you
do not want Russia to succeed at any cost, even more than
you might not want me to succeed.
Lay out a plan for discussion. We can go from there.
Feel free to include the entire board. I am also looking
for advice on how to hold Bur, Pic, and open up Par for a
build. I thought that I had the move to Belgium stopped,
but missed the obivous. I will have to choose again
which location to risk.
--Prince Boar
Message from England to France
>I have the Steelers Kicker on my team. Can you go talk to him and make
>certain that he stops missing so many FGs and for goodness sake, no
>missed extra points! :-)
Having Chris Brown has probably helped you a little. He has missed a lot,
but he has also made a lot. The Steelers are horrible in close and usually
have to settle for field goal attempts. Against the Jets, we were in
scoring range 7 times. One TD, 6 FG attempts.
>PS: I will be curious as to what gave my identity away?
I am only guessing and I could be wrong. I just matched your personality
with the personality of someone who did something thoughtful. Is that
vague enough to keep me out of jail and specific enough to answer your
question?
Ivy
Message from England to France
Prince Boar,
>See I told you that tactics was not my strength. I
>thought I had the convoy to Belgium stopped. Like a
>goofball I assumed that it was going through the North
>Sea and support by the Channel. Nice job.
It hardly matters much. Belgium was Russia's, of course.
Russia seems to be indicating that you did not move as you led him to
believe. Is that so?
Ivy
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
> > It seems that I've been played for a sucker, > and I fell for it.
>Could you be a little more specific? What were you expecting this turn
>that didn't happen?
Alb S Tri-Ser, Rum S Mos-Sev was agreed to and mo.
>If we take Munich, with Italian help, then France
>will need nine centers in the southeast. That
>might not be so easy.
What makes you think we'll get any Italian help?
Sil-Ber, Gal retreats to Boh, suggests that Roberto
is doing everything in his power to keep Mun French.
Gal-Bud, Ser-Gre would have been anti-French. Even
if Italy helps France this Fall, a French Solo is
not a sure thing, but I don't think we can count on
any Italian help in stopping him. Still offering
Ber S Sil-Mun can't hurt, I suppose.
Nick.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>What makes you think we'll get any Italian help?
>Sil-Ber, Gal retreats to Boh, suggests that Roberto
>is doing everything in his power to keep Mun French.
Roberto wanted me to move Kiel->Ruhr & Berlin->Kiel along with his
Silesia->Berlin & Galicia->Bohemia, so we could make an all out assault on
Munich in the fall. I told him that I was indeed moving Kiel->Ruhr, but
that I could not promise Berlin->Kiel. As you know, you wanted Kiel open
for your Holland fleet. Also, I did not want to cross you, because you
were a more hopeful partner for the remainder of this increasingly weird game.
So I do believe that Roberto intended to take Munich, not protect it.
On the other hand, I have no idea if it will ever be possible for you and
Italy to work together again in titleist. Perhaps indirectly with me as a
go-between.
I wrote him and am waiting to hear from him. I have no idea how he will
respond to your "apology" -- with restraint? with mockery? with
kindness? This will be a test of his maturity.
Is Diplomacy a great game, or what?
Ivy
Message from Russia to France
> >Well, I'm confused... Care to explain?
>paranoia on my part. I am not comfortable putting my
>head in a ER noose after Italy is eliminated.
>I also do not trust what Italy is doing, hence I am
>trying to eliminate him as quickly as possible.
To borrow a line from "Animal House",
*cough! bullshit! cough!*
Without Italian support you would lose Munich this
Fall, but as you would be gaining at least two Italian
Centers, that would not weaken you at all, and you
could build A Mar, and hold against anything we threw
at you. Mos-Sev, Tri-Ser, Smy-Con takes three Italian
Centers, while your attack only takes two, so clearly
you are NOT trying to eliminate him as fast as possible.
I may have been a fool to trust you, Prince Boar, but
I am neither blind, nor an idiot, and I would thank you
to not treat me as though I was.
Sincerely,
Czar Nicholas II
Message from Master to all
Unless I misunderstood a 'press to m' by someone, everyone agrees
to switch to non-anonymous. I'll reveal identities for all seven
players in a couple of hours (giving the four of you a chance to say
"wait, wait, that's not what I said!").
Glad to put identity-policing behind me,
Doug
Message from France to England, Italy, and Russia
Although I have access, my e-mail is extremely slow, 5
minutes or more per click of the mouse. I will probably
not be able to do much until tonight. Sorry.
--Prince Boar
Message from England to all
>Unless I misunderstood a 'press to m' by someone, everyone agrees
>to switch to non-anonymous. I'll reveal identities for all seven
>players in a couple of hours
Doug, please include addresses and times when players will be home alone.
Ivy Wingo (my real name)
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
> >What makes you think we'll get any Italian help?
> >Sil-Ber, Gal retreats to Boh, suggests that Roberto
> >is doing everything in his power to keep Mun French.
>Roberto wanted me to move Kiel->Ruhr & Berlin->Kiel along with his
>Silesia->Berlin & Galicia->Bohemia,
>so we could make an all out assault on Munich in the
>fall. I told him that I was indeed moving Kiel->Ruhr,
>but that I could not promise Berlin->Kiel. As you know, you wanted Kiel
>open for your Holland fleet.
Ah, ok. I didn't actually want Hol open for my Fleet.
I just saw that as the only way to block the French
retreat from Munich. Hmmm, it's funny how a little
information can completely change your interpretation
of a set of moves.
>I do believe that Roberto intended to take Munich,
>not protect it.
I hope you're more correct about Roberto than I was
about Xavier. 8-)
>I have no idea if it will ever be possible for you
>and Italy to work together again in titleist
I'm a realist. Stopping the French Solo is more
important than any animosity I have toward Italy.
If Italy moves Sil-Mun this Fall, I will be
thankful, and happy.
>I have no idea how he will respond to your "apology"
> -- with restraint? with mockery? with kindness? This will be a test of
>his maturity.
As long as he attacks France, he can be as immature
as he cares to be. 8-)
>Is Diplomacy a great game, or what?
Umm, can I wait until after the Fall moves to answer
that question? ;^}
Nick.
Message from Russia to Master
You can reveal the names now, as far as I'm concerned.
Eric.
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Nick, Roberto,
So here we are again. The three amigos. United once more. Or not.
I'm not sure we are capable of much. Our mistrust of each other is firmly
grounded in history and fully justified.
Given our miserable record, I offer a very limited goal. No more dreams of
pushing France back toward equality with subsequent, private hopes that
someone might then be eliminated. I suggest that we try to halt France in
any way possible and hope for a 4-way draw. Let him have his 14 or 15 or
16 units. We cannot reduce him without one or more of us feeling insecure.
If I can be trusted a little, I volunteer to help coordinate some tactics.
still Ivy
Message from Italy to England
>
> >My apologies. It seems that I've been played for
> >a sucker, and I fell for it.
>
> Restrain. Restrain.
>
He who laughs first rarely laughs last.
> **********************
>
> I was surprised a bit by your retreat orders. As I was
> opening them, I rather expected to see three disbands
> to make France's victory easier.
>
I almost disbanded the fleet but when I realized France didn't have enough
units to cover ANK,CON,SER,and BUL without risking BUD and RUM, I figured
the fleet could be of use in supporting RUM this fall. I fully intend to
disband the fleet during the winter.
> Is the survival instinct still present?
>
Not really, but at least I went down fighting.
>
> It is possible that this is just one more
> attempt to "cooperate" for the purpose of learning your moves.
>
Just a hint, if I tell you my moves, there is a 50-50 chance that I'm
totally lying to you. Still want to know?
Roberto
Message from Italy to England and Russia
>
> My apologies. It seems that I've been played for
> a sucker, and I fell for it.
>
No apologies necessary. You did what you thought was correct at the time.
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
>
> I am open for suggestions. Obviously my plan in the
> Spring was flawed. Of course, you were suppose to go to
> Arm and BlS and not go to Vie. :-) My fault for not
> actively coordinating with you I guess.
>
Pretty much. I was fully prepared to hand the game to you this spring
before you disbanded the fleet. I had no choice but to assume you and
Russia were still planning to split this game somehow. I just figured if
you didn't want me to go there, perhaps there was a reason. It look to me
like you were trying to position my units so FR could attack them without
giving them a retreat. By bouncing you in Vienna, now you can't get the
Tyrolian army to Budapest via Vienna without somebody covering Vienna. That
gives me better hope that Budapest could retreat if I was so inclined.
> I figure the game is in your hands. I am willing to
> coordinate my moves with you complete and risk your using
> that against me. If you do, Russia will have a huge
> advantage in that I am better positioned to deny England
> growth than Russia. Hence I am willing to risk that you
> do not want Russia to succeed at any cost, even more than
> you might not want me to succeed.
>
The risk, in this case, would be well worth taking for you.
> Lay out a plan for discussion. We can go from there.
> Feel free to include the entire board.
>
I will take a look and let you know what I find.
Roberto
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>Just a hint, if I tell you my moves, there is a 50-50 chance that I'm
>totally lying to you. Still want to know?
Oh sure.
I don't know what would do in your position. The choices aren't
great. You can play for a reasonable chance for a 4-way (big whoop!) or
get some satisfaction from Russia's fate (and alas, mine as well).
I think I now believe that it was Russia who didn't agree to the draw.
Ivy
Message from Italy to England and Russia
>
> If I can be trusted a little, I volunteer to help coordinate
> some tactics.
>
I will be honest. I will not publicly agree to any set of orders. I will
listen to what the two of you have to say. I will not suggest orders. I
will not debate the validity of orders. I do not guarantee that I would
abide by any agreed upon set of orders.
That is the way I feel today. Things have a weird way of changing in my
mind these days though as I get more and more sleep.
Roberto
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from England to Russia and Italy in 'titleist':
>So here we are again. The three amigos. United once more. Or not.
>I'm not sure we are capable of much. Our mistrust of each other is firmly
>grounded in history and fully justified.
At this level of play, we should be capable of
setting aside our past differences, in order to stop
a Solo bid.
>I volunteer to help coordinate some tactics.
I can agree to this.
Nick.
Message from Italy to England
Truth is, I really don't have a clue how I will move yet. I will listen to
what you and Russia have to say but I will also be coordinating with France
at the same time. It's a gamble both sides are going to have to take I
guess.
Roberto
ps: In this particular game, a 4-way draw with the fewest number of units on
the board equals a loss in my mind. No better or no worse than Austria,
Germany, or Turkey.
Message from England to Italy
>Truth is, I really don't have a clue how I will move yet. I will listen to
>what you and Russia have to say but I will also be coordinating with France
>at the same time. It's a gamble both sides are going to have to take I
>guess.
Fine by me. My expectations for titleist were lowered a long time ago.
>ps: In this particular game, a 4-way draw with the fewest number of units on
>the board equals a loss in my mind. No better or no worse than Austria,
>Germany, or Turkey.
I agree that a 4-way is pretty lousy. However, I would rather observers
see that I attempted to stop a solo than have them see that I assisted a solo.
Anyway, I have no idea when I might be able to recommend moves. I have a
major obligation this evening.
Que sera, and all of that.
Ivy
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
I can live with Roberto's attitude for now. Let's give him a chance to
come around.
I did tell him that, although a 4-way is a lousy result, I would rather
observers see me attempt to stop a solo than see me assist a solo.
I have a major commitment this evening. I may not be available to discuss
moves until tomorrow.
still Ivy
Message from Italy to England
>
> However, I would rather observers see that I attempted
> to stop a solo than have them see that I assisted a solo.
>
Point taken. Another reason for the lack of disbands.
> Anyway, I have no idea when I might be able to recommend
> moves. I have a major obligation this evening.
>
No problem. Almost three full days before the next deadline. I'm in no
hurry.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
>I will be honest. I will not publicly agree to any set of orders. I will
>listen to what the two of you have to say. I will not suggest orders. I
>will not debate the validity of orders. I do not guarantee that I would
>abide by any agreed upon set of orders.
Well, thank you for your honesty, and for agreeing to
listen to us, Roberto, but frankly, that does not seem
to give us a chance to stop France. Could you perhaps
discuss options with Ivy, come to an agreement and then
present just my moves to me? Mun, Ser, Bud, and Rum
are all possible targets for us, it seems to me, while
Tri, Vie, Bul, Sev, and Ank are all at risk.
Nick.
Message from Italy to England and Russia
> Could you perhaps discuss options with Ivy,
>
That is certainly a distinct possibility. I have privately discussed
matters with Ivy this morning and I believe he understands my position.
Basically, all I am saying is that if, in my mind, France offers up a better
option, I will take it.
Since I'm a mathematical, odds player type of guy, I'd say there is a 40%
chance I would follow ER plans, a 40% chance I'd follow France's plans, and
a 20% chance I'll march to the beat of my own drummer. These numbers will
flucuate up and down as negotiations progress.
Last turn, I attacked all remaining powers and was attacked by all remaining
powers. I owe no favors and am owed no favors. The slate is clean. I urge
you to do your best to retain my services.
Roberto
Message from Master to all
Okay, here it is:
Austria: Randy Hudson
England: Allen Schweinsberg
France: Roger Yonkoski
Germany: Rich Olver
Italy: Ken Lofgren
Russia: Eric Hunter
Turkey: Jeff Stephens
Feel free to continue using your assumed names or address each other
by name.
FWIW, the observers to this game (primarily Karlis Povisils and Jim
Burgess, I think) have had Allen, Roger, and Eric picked out for
quite some time. Of course, they were actually *trying* to do so.
Doug
Message from Russia to all
>Broadcast message from Master in 'titleist':
>Okay, here it is:
>Austria: Randy Hudson
>England: Allen Schweinsberg
>France: Roger Yonkoski
>Germany: Rich Olver
>Italy: Ken Lofgren
>Russia: Eric Hunter
>Turkey: Jeff Stephens
Does this mean the semifinal results will finally be
revealed??? 8-)
Eric.
Message from England to Master
Doug,
After all that wait, this feels rather anticlimactic.
What about my semifinal? Is that information still off-limits?
Allen
>Austria: Randy Hudson
>England: Allen Schweinsberg
>France: Roger Yonkoski
>Germany: Rich Olver
>Italy: Ken Lofgren
>Russia: Eric Hunter
>Turkey: Jeff Stephens
Message from Master to all
In this era of glasnost, one or more players have requested that the
semi-final games be revealed. I'll do so, again, by unanimous private
vote only.
Doug
Message from Italy to Master
>
> In this era of glasnost, one or more players have requested that the
> semi-final games be revealed. I'll do so, again, by unanimous private
> vote only.
>
I think I already know the answer but I don't want that to affect my final
decision(s) in this game. The semi-finals can remain noreveal for a short
while longer. Let that traiterous Russian suffer. :)
btw, what's the prize for being the power to remain anonymous to the
observers for the longest period of time?
Ken
Message from England to Master
Fine by me.
Allen
>In this era of glasnost, one or more players have requested that the
>semi-final games be revealed. I'll do so, again, by unanimous private
>vote only.
>
>Doug
Message from Master to Italy
>I think I already know the answer but I don't want that to affect my
>final decision(s) in this game. The semi-finals can remain noreveal
>for a short while longer. Let that traiterous Russian suffer. :)
Fair enough! I'm in no rush there.
>btw, what's the prize for being the power to remain anonymous to the
>observers for the longest period of time?
I don't know, but you, Randy, Jeff, and Rich tie for it. They had
you guys all mixed up. Jim Burgess was convinced that you were
Jeff Stephens.
Doug
Message from Russia to Master
>Broadcast message from Master in 'titleist':
>one or more players have requested that the
>semi-final games be revealed. I'll do so,
>again, by unanimous private vote only.
Yes.
Message from Master to all
usin@thekleimans.com said:
>In this era of glasnost, one or more players have requested that the
>semi-final games be revealed. I'll do so, again, by unanimous private
>vote only.
Vetoed!
Doug
Message from Russia to England and Italy
> Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
>
> Basically, all I am saying is that if, in my mind, France offers up a
better
> option, I will take it.
I'm not sure under what circumstances losing to a solo is better than
sharing
in a draw, but you're free to assign result values as you see fit.
> Since I'm a mathematical, odds player type of guy, I'd say there is a 40%
> chance I would follow ER plans, a 40% chance I'd follow France's plans,
> and a 20% chance I'll march to the beat of my own drummer.
I see this as a 60% chance of a French solo.
> I urge you to do your best to retain my services.
Work with us, you have a chance at a draw, work with France, or do your
own thing and France Solos. I can't do better than that, but perhaps Ivy
can.
Nick.
Message from Observer to Observer
I suspect that Gunboat was broken since Italy was so "stupid" as
to just attack everyone last turn. It is now nearly certain that
he will be eliminated. Anyone think that it was a coincidence
that we figured out the identities of England, France, and Russia
and that those might be the last three players left standing?
Good, since you would be wrong if you did. ;-)
Obviously, my predictions need revision. I can't possibly see
what came into Italy's (now known to be Ken's) mind on this.
It seemed that he must have been TERRIBLY undiplomatic last year,
looks like he made threats and was called on them. Sorry, sorry
situation. I am overjoyed that the people with personalities
STILL are winning even though it is gunboat (or was gunboat)
and even in their broadcast press that came through.
The question is: will this move lazily into a three way draw,
or will it go somewhere else? STRONG suspicion: gunboat is
finally broken because the game essentially is over. Bye,
bye, Italy, YOU blew it, it didn't have to end for you like this!
Jim-Bob
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
>Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
>if, in my mind, France offers up a better
>option, I will take it.
>I'd say there is a 40% chance I would follow ER plans,
>a 40% chance I'd follow France's plans, and
>a 20% chance I'll march to the beat of my own drummer.
Worst-case Scenario: Franco-Italian Cooperation:
Sil S Mun-Ber, Boh S Bur-Mun (takes Ber, hold Mun, +1)
Tyl-Vie, Bud S Ser-Tri (takes Vie, Tri, loses Bud, +1)
Bla S Rum, Con-Ank, Aeg-Con) (takes Con, Ank, +2)
14 +1 +1 +2 = 18. French Victory, Italy survives with
3 or 4 Centers.
Best-Case Scenario: EIR Cooperation:
Sil S Ber-Mun, Boh-Tyl, Bel S Ruh-Bur, Hol-Kie (takes
Mun and probably destroys A Mun)
We hold Tri, Vie, Bul, Ank, and take Rum, Bud, while
France takes Ser, and Con. France lose one Center,
Italy loses three, you gain two, I gain one.
Nick.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
I am truly insulted. Really. It is not that you do not trust me, I
understand that part. But do you think that I am truly that
incompetent? (Perhaps I do not want to hear the answer :-)
If Italy and I were working together do you think that we could not have
come up with any better orders than that???? I know that tactics are
not my strength, but Roberto is pretty good. And together we could not
be that lame.
I am sorry for deceiving you. I actually ordered exactly as I
originally told you that I would. I decided that I preferred to support
myself and not your army to Serbia. Given all your moves, I would have
been in a tight spot had I not. I knew that. I did not have the energy
to argue with you about it. OK as an ally I erred seriously in that I
did not talk things out and try to work towards a mutually agreeable
solution, I merely did exactly what I wanted to do. That was bad, and
deceiving you was bad. But I did not want to get stuck at 10-10-14. I
want 8-9-17 or 9-9-16 and security.
There are still many options for nearly eliminating Italy this season.
But it is probably not likely to happen. If we both just do our own
thing, we will end up where we want to be. We just do not have to sweat
all the worrying about it.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
Any plan that I can come up with ends up with me having 17 centers.
There is a slight chance that I could get end up with Budapest, but that
is unlikely. So we need a plan that maximizes our position for next
year.
These seem obvious?
Con -> Ank
Aeg -> Con
BlS -> Sev
Bul s Rum
Sil -> Ber
Pie -> Ven
Wes&Spa s MAO
Tyr -> Tri s by Ser seems likely
There are still a lot of options in both the south and north.
Russia will probably order:
Ukr -> Rum
Mos -> Sev
Gal -> Bud s by Tri??
We could order Bud -> Vie s by Boh on the hopes that he orders Gal ->
Vie s by Tri, which would fail and I end up with Bud and 18? Else you
would end up with 3 centers/units left. I could try and collect
Bulgaria next year without losing any other net centers? May we should
consider trying to maximize your units since they are at the front while
my one new unit would be stuck in Mar. I could leave you Con as well?
What do you think the odds of my getting 18 this year?
In the North what about:
Mun s Bur
Bur s Mun (w/ Sil -> Ber)
Bre s Pic
Pic s Bur
Par -> Gas
(MAO,Wes,Spa,Bre,Pic,Bur,Par,Gas forms an unbreakable line even if I
lose Munich)
--Prince Boar
PS: I did set draw last phase, but Russia told me he would not so I did
not bother to ask Ivy to do so. Russia also told me that he was the one
that did not set draw last year. For what it is worth.
PPS: I fully accept your comments that I made this harder on myself by
both my disband and my lack of cooperation in the spring. In the end,
the thing that I was hoping to gain from it (betraying Russia in the
fall and not the spring) I threw away anyway. I am trying to set a
record for the most mistakes made in one Diplomacy game? How do you
think I am doing?
Message from France to England
Ivy:
>Russia seems to be indicating that you did not move as you led him to
>believe. Is that so?
Yes.
I moved as I originally told him that I was going to move. He of course
modified my plan. I argeed to it but kept my orders as originally
stated. It was easier than arguing with him.
I suspect that this season we will not have to argue at all as there
will be no discussion :-) I guess this is too bad, but I deserve it.
--Prince Boar
Message from Russia to France
Roger, My Friend,
> I am truly insulted. Really. It is not that you do not trust me, I
> understand that part. But do you think that I am truly that
> incompetent? (Perhaps I do not want to hear the answer :-)
Actually, I did trust you. That's why I was hurt by your betrayal.
> If Italy and I were working together do you think that we could not have
> come up with any better orders than that???? I know that tactics are
> not my strength, but Roberto is pretty good. And together we could not
> be that lame.
Roberto is difficult to work with at the best of times, and his moves
still seem pro-French in an intentionally ambiguous way.
> I did not want to get stuck at 10-10-14. I want 8-9-17
> or 9-9-16 and security.
You're likely to get 14-8-8-4. Will you be happy with that?
> There are still many options for nearly eliminating Italy this season.
> But it is probably not likely to happen.
Given that you can solo this year with Italian cooperation, it exceedingly
unlikely.
> If we both just do our own thing, we will end up where we want to be.
> We just do not have to sweat all the worrying about it.
Really? Where I want to be is in an RF two-way, where I'm going to
end up is an EFIR four-way draw. That's not where I want to be, at all.
Eric.
Message from Italy to France
> Any plan that I can come up with ends up with me having 17 centers.
Me too.
> These seem obvious?
> Con -> Ank
> Aeg -> Con
> BlS -> Sev
> Bul s Rum
>
I was thinking about bla supp rum - sev. You either get SEV or keep RUM.
It's a possibility. Gives you a chance to retain RUM should Russia and I
bounce there. :)
> We could order Bud -> Vie s by Boh on the hopes that he orders Gal ->
> Vie s by Tri, which would fail and I end up with Bud and 18?
Even that fails as Trieste I believe would have a retreat to Budapest.
> What do you think the odds of my getting 18 this year?
Slim, but if I wasn't so stubborn, I could probably find out ER moves this
year. They are trying to convince me to join them to stop the France solo
effort. What a riot?
> Russia also told me that he was the one that did not set draw last year.
I figured that out a long time ago.
> I am trying to set a record for the most mistakes made in one Diplomacy
> game? How do you think I am doing?
I think you are still trailing me by a substantial margin.
I haven't had the time tonight to look at the board. Wife goes to class on
Tuesdays and I get stuck, I mean, take care of the child.
Roberto
Message from Italy to England and Russia
>
> Work with us, you have a chance at a draw, work with France,
> or do your own thing and France Solos.
>
And this is different than what EI have been telling you for several
turns how?
Can you provide me with one single solitary substantitive reason why I
should believe you now? Or is this just another part of your charade to
get Italy eliminated?
Face facts, you may have crossed a line you didn't want to cross. Lord
knows I've probably crossed several along the way which led to 'ukr supp
rum-bud' (which by the way is a fine example of working collaboratively
to prevent a French solo).
> I see this as a 60% chance of a French solo.
Actually, the odds are much higher since even if EIR tried to prevent a
French solo, the chances of us succeeding now are not 40%.
Part of what is driving my negotiations at this point is I'm quite
intrigued by how you planned to stop the French solo if Italy was eliminated
or attempted to throw the game. I would rather enjoy watching how that
would come about. It would be a fine exercise in tactics if you could
actually pull it off. Something I could learn from and use in future
contests.
Roberto
Message from Observer to Observer
On Tue 11 Dec 2001 at 08:01:50PM -0500, in <200112120101.UAA3889750@s...>,
Jim Burgess <burgess@w...> wrote:
> Obviously, my predictions need revision. I can't possibly see
> what came into Italy's (now known to be Ken's) mind on this.
Gave up a couple of seasons back, I suspect. No prospect of making it
back home to gain more units... not much prospect of being in a draw,
and even in a 4-way, he's still the smallest power, so he's "fourth" in
the overall tournament whether eliminated or not...
Given that, what's the difference between elimination and a draw? None!
Maybe some JPDR, but that's not all *that* significant...
> It seemed that he must have been TERRIBLY undiplomatic last year,
> looks like he made threats and was called on them. Sorry, sorry
> situation. I am overjoyed that the people with personalities STILL
> are winning even though it is gunboat (or was gunboat) and even in
> their broadcast press that came through.
*nodnod* Agreed on that. I like personalities... it's one of the
reasons I'm fond of anonymous press over non-anonymous, the personality
play stuff is interesting... it adds another layer to work through to
get to the "real player".
> The question is: will this move lazily into a three way draw,
> or will it go somewhere else? STRONG suspicion: gunboat is
> finally broken because the game essentially is over. Bye,
> bye, Italy, YOU blew it, it didn't have to end for you like this!
Mmm... I think he's gracefully exposing his throat to the sword, more
than anything else.
And, there's still a chance... he *could* pick up Rum, maybe... if he
does, that puts him *on* the stalemate line, although he's probably
easily got rid of.
As for threeway vs solo? Hrm. I don't think E or R has any chance at a
solo... they have to work together to stop F from soloing... and I
think they can do it. But I think it basically depends on Italy's final
moves... if France can pick up Bud, Bul, Tri, Bul, Ank, and either hang
on to Rum or Mun or pick up Vie... Low probability, though, I think.
OTOH... even with a draw, there's still a jostle for place, since draws
are awarded final position in the tournament by SC count, aren't they?
And 35/3 is not a zero remainder... Although if France gets an odd
number of SCs, then the other two can have an even division... Maybe...
ook,
Thorf
--
<a href="http://tertius.net.au/~thorfinn">thorfinn@t...</a>
"I expect I will be hung over tomorrow. I'm in caulfield somewhere. I'll
be in by lunchtime."
-- Skud@i..., inspirational leader, pointiest of the pointy
Message from Russia to England and Italy
> Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
> > Work with us, you have a chance at a draw, work with France,
> > or do your own thing and France Solos.
> And this is different than what EI have been telling you for several
> turns how?
It's different because the theoretical French Solo is now close to being
an unstoppable reality.
> Can you provide me with one single solitary substantitive reason why I
> should believe you now? Or is this just another part of your charade to
> get Italy eliminated?
Two reasons, actually. This Spring, France agreed to order Alb S Tri-Ser,
Rum S Mos-Sev. He ordered neither.
> Face facts, you may have crossed a line you didn't want to cross.
That would be the line where you stop playing rationally, correct?
> > I see this as a 60% chance of a French solo.
> Actually, the odds are much higher since even if EIR tried to prevent a
> French solo, the chances of us succeeding now are not 40%.
Nonsense. IF EIR cooperate, France will not Solo. Indeed, he's likely
to actually lose a Center this year. I will grant that the odds of EIR
actually
cooperating are not good, particularly given your attitude, but the tactics
of EIR vs. F are not that difficult, at this point.
> Part of what is driving my negotiations at this point is I'm quite
> intrigued by how you planned to stop the French solo if Italy was
eliminated
> or attempted to throw the game. I would rather enjoy watching how that
> would come about. It would be a fine exercise in tactics if you could
> actually pull it off. Something I could learn from and use in future
> contests.
I, somewhat foolishly, believed Roger when he said he was more interested
in seeing you eliminated than in soloing himself, at this point, and I
thought he
understood that I would accept a four-way before letting him win. It seems
I was wrong on both counts, so my "plans" for stopping the French solo, no
longer are at issue. Throwing this game to learn that I was wrong, seems
like one of the more foolish reasons for giving up and quitting that I have
ever heard of.
In Frustration,
Nick.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I have an idea for getting to 18 this year. It
assumes that Russia will use Gal in the south. And I
am guessing that England will order Ruh -> Mun s by
Ber
We order Mun -> Ber s by Sil
Bur -> Mun (perhaps supported by Boh just in case)
If Russia were to use Galicia to attack Silesia, then
we could get to 18 by ordering
Bud -> Tri s by Ser
Tyr -> Vie s by Boh
What do you think? It would be nice to end this thing
now and get on with our lives.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to England, Italy, and Russia
I again cannot get to my e-mail account! I am now
connected from yahoo. I should be able to get mail
there now. Anything sent last night or early this
morning, I have not seen. I am sorry for filling your
mailbox with problems concerning my e-mail.
France
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
How about the following:
France units hold and support
Mun -> Ber
Sil s Mun -> Ber
Bur -> Mun
Pie -> Ven
Tyr -> vie
Boh s Tyr -> Vie
Bud -> Tri
Ser s Bud -> Tri
Con -> Ank
Aeg -> Con
BlS -> Sev
Rum s BlS -> Sev
Bul s Rum
I would hold:
Turkey, Italy, France, Iberia, Tunis = 12
Gre, Ser, Rum, (Vie or Bud) = 16
(Bud or Ber) = 17
Mun ? = 18
Ber -> Mun s by Ruh could keep me at 17. We could
either hope for the best or you could try to encourage
Ruh -> Mun or Ruh -> Bur.
Thoughts?
--Prince Boar
Message from Russia to France
I sent this last night. Resending it now in case your
ISP ate it.
-------------------------------------------------------
Message from Russia to France in 'titleist':
Roger, My Friend,
> I am truly insulted. Really. It is not that you do not trust me,
> I understand that part. But do you think that I am truly that
> incompetent? (Perhaps I do not want to hear the answer :-)
Actually, I did trust you. That's why I was hurt by your betrayal.
> If Italy and I were working together do you think that we could
> not have come up with any better orders than that???? I know
> that tactics are not my strength, but Roberto is pretty good.
> And together we could not be that lame.
Roberto is difficult to work with at the best of times, and his moves
still seem pro-French in an intentionally ambiguous way.
> I did not want to get stuck at 10-10-14. I want 8-9-17
> or 9-9-16 and security.
You're likely to get 14-8-8-4. Will you be happy with that?
> There are still many options for nearly eliminating Italy this
> season. But it is probably not likely to happen.
Given that you can solo this year with Italian cooperation, it exceedingly
unlikely.
> If we both just do our own thing, we will end up where we want to be.
> We just do not have to sweat all the worrying about it.
Really? Where I want to be is in an RF two-way, where I'm going to
end up is an EFIR four-way draw. That's not where I want to be, at all.
Eric.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
>They are trying to convince me to join them to stop
the France solo
>effort. What a riot?
:-) Well they have to try, right? They probably know
that you realize that in the end this would just
result in an EFR rather than a F solo. As I stated
before, the game finish is in your hands.
>I haven't had the time tonight to look at the board.
Wife goes to class on
>Tuesdays and I get stuck, I mean, take care of the
child.
I feel your pain, in triplicate! :-) If you want
fun, try bringing three kids to Target, at night, near
Christmas, to get a gift for Mom. All they want is to
look at the toys and it is hard to pick up all three
and carry them off. It is lucky that the oldest can
sometimes be reasoned with :-)
Take your time. I sent some possible orders earlier
this morning. I hope that you got them (I am unsure
about my e-mail these days). I like your idea of Rum
-> Sev. It seems to increase the odds of getting to
18.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
I managed to get your message (barely). Darn AT&T.
OK, we are in a pickle. If you feel that you must try
and work with Italy, then that is your choice. Either
way I will continue on my path of taking my share of
the centers. You may end up losing by not getting the
centers you need.
If you have a way out of it, I am willing to listen.
--Prince Boar
PS: Hey, I just got the resend of your mail. Thanks
for taking the time to send it! Either you are a
great guy or you wanted to make sure that I felt
guilty by reading it! I suspect a bit of both but I
will assume that it was mostly the former.
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Nick, Roberto,
>Since I'm a mathematical, odds player type of guy
[Smile] I am a mathematics professor at Bucknell University in Lewisburg, PA.
> > > I see this as a 60% chance of a French solo.
>
> > Actually, the odds are much higher since even if EIR tried to prevent a
> > French solo, the chances of us succeeding now are not 40%.
>
>Nonsense. IF EIR cooperate, France will not Solo. Indeed, he's likely
>to actually lose a Center this year.
I am having considerable difficulty finding good moves in the southeast and
find myself thinking that it might be too late to stop France. If we take
and keep Munich, then France has the 5 natural French centers plus the 4
natural Italian centers and needs 9 in the southeast. If he gets all of
Turkey, plus Greece, Trieste, Bulgaria, and Serbia, then that's seven. We
would need to keep two of Vienna, Budapest, Rumania. That would seem to
give us a chance. Also, we can make it very difficult for France to get
Ankara.
But, when I look at details, the news is not so good. It is very tempting
to suggest Moscow->Sevastopol->Armenia, but that costs Roberto the loss of
Sevastopol and another unit (permanently). Perhaps we can delay that move
one turn if Roberto orders Black->Ankara. That may not be the best move
for other reasons, though. Even without losing Sevastopol, I worry that
Roberto is going to lose strength this year. I wish to support him into
Munich, where even with one unit he could last forever. But the southeast
boggles my poor mind. There is a huge amount of guesswork that will have
to go into moves down there.
As of this typing all I can promise is that I will look hard and long at
the position either this afternoon or this evening. In the meantime please
share ideas jointly or privately.
Ivy
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>Best-Case Scenario: EIR Cooperation:
...
>Italy loses three, you gain two, I gain one.
[laugh] That's cooperation? Italy losing three?
Quite seriously, I think Italy will lose something no matter what we
do. And that will make him all the less willing to cooperate
afterwards. If you can suggest some moves, I would be grateful. I do
think that we need to take Munich with Silesia.
Also I fear that France will see that Munich is hopeless and that he will
order Burgundy supp Munich->Ruhr. If he gets Ruhr in the process of losing
Munich, we still have a struggle on our hands up there.
Ivy
Message from Russia to France
Xavier,
>OK, we are in a pickle. If you feel that you must try
>and work with Italy, then that is your choice. Either
>way I will continue on my path of taking my share of
>the centers. You may end up losing by not getting the
>centers you need.
You already have your share of the Centers, plus a few
of mine. 8-) 14-10-10 gives you a clear claim to the
Tournament Championship, and a result that Jim-Bob
Burgess maintains is appropriate for an expert game. 8-)
Trying for the Solo, or even 16 or 17 Centers, is
likely to get you a four-way, because I won't be able
to eliminate Italy if you're threatening to Solo, and
I'll have to support him to keep you from soloing.
>If you have a way out of it, I am willing to listen.
Ser S Rum-Bul, Con S Rum-Bul, Aeg S Con has potential,
I think.
>PS: Hey, I just got the resend of your mail. Thanks
>for taking the time to send it! Either you are a
>great guy or you wanted to make sure that I felt
>guilty by reading it! I suspect a bit of both but I
>will assume that it was mostly the former.
Communication is the key to survival and success in
Diplomacy, and if I can guilt you into letting me
eliminate Italy, it's better for both of us. ;^}
Your Friend,
Nick.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from England to Russia and Italy in 'titleist':
> >Since I'm a mathematical, odds player type of guy
>[Smile] I am a mathematics professor at Bucknell University
>in Lewisburg, PA.
(Geeze, I live in Harrisburg, and Rod Spade is just south
of me in Lancaster. (Anyone for a F2F game? 8-) )
> > > if EIR tried to prevent a French solo, > > the chances of us
>succeeding now are not 40%.
> > Nonsense. IF EIR cooperate, France will not Solo. > Indeed, he's likely
>to actually lose a Center this year.
>I find myself thinking that it might be too late to
>stop France. If we take and keep Munich, then France
>has the 5 natural French centers plus the 4 natural
>Italian centers and needs 9 in the southeast.
Yes, but seven of His Units and two of his Home Centers
are locked down defending France. He lacks the forces
and the growth potential to take and hold 9 Centers in
the Southeast, if we cooperate against him.
>It is very tempting to suggest Moscow->Sevastopol->Armenia,
>but that costs Roberto the loss of Sevastopol and another
>unit (permanently). Perhaps we can delay that move
>one turn if Roberto orders Black->Ankara. That may not be
>the best move for other reasons, though. Even without
>losing Sevastopol, I worry that Roberto is going to lose
>strength this year.
Stopping France is more important than trying to keep
Roberto from losing Units, in my opinion.
Nick.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>Stopping France is more important than trying to keep
>Roberto from losing Units, in my opinion.
Another wonderful laugh. Nick is all heart.
He also carries grudges for a long time. He will be upset with France for
the rest of this game.
I really don't know if France can be stopped. We'll see. I'll let you
know if I have any moves to recommend. If so, do as you think best.
Ivy
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
> >Best-Case Scenario: EIR Cooperation:
...
>>Italy loses three, you gain two, I gain one.
>[laugh] That's cooperation? Italy losing three?
*chuckle* Well, since France loses a Center as well,
yes, I would call that cooperation. You'll forgive
me if I don't view maintaining Italy's Center Count
as an important goal of Russian Foreign Policy.
Realistically, Rum is the easiest French Center for
us to take in the South, and F Bla is better off
defending Ank or taking Con, than it is covering
Sev, so that means Mos-Sev is likely to give me
Sev. From an alliance perspective, it's a gain,
rather than a loss, if for no other reason than it
allows us to deny France Turkey over the next couple
of years.
>If you can suggest some moves, I would be grateful.
I'll see what I can come up with.
>I do think that we need to take Munich with Silesia.
That's fine. It exposes us to an FI stab, but I don't
see Roberto actively throwing the game at this point.
>I fear that France will see that Munich is hopeless
>and that he will order Burgundy supp Munich->Ruhr.
Ber S Sil-Mun, Boh-Tyl, Nth S ECh-Bel, Ruh S Bel-Bur,
Hol-Kie seems foolproof.
Nick.
Message from Italy to England and Russia
>
> Stopping France is more important than trying to keep
> Roberto from losing Units, in my opinion.
>
I am not of the mind to participate in a stop France campaign if the outcome
of the game would then be an EFR 3-way draw. Earlier in the game, yes; but
not now.
If you want my cooperation Nick, and I firmly believe that you do, you're
going to have to find it in your heart to figure out a way where I don't
disband this turn. That probably means you're going to have to give
something up.
I have a suggested set of moves from France. I await the ER entry in the
What-will-Italy-do-this-turn contest.
Roberto
Message from England to Italy and Russia
>If you want my cooperation Nick, and I firmly believe that you do, you're
>going to have to find it in your heart to figure out a way where I don't
>disband this turn. That probably means you're going to have to give
>something up.
I promise to do my best to try to come up with Italian moves, but
unfortunately the southeast situation is such a mess that it is impossible
to *guarantee* that you won't have t disband. The northeast is
easy. Silesia can take Munich.
Ivy
Message from Italy to England
>
> I promise to do my best to try to come up with Italian moves, but
> unfortunately the southeast situation is such a mess that it
> is impossible to *guarantee* that you won't have to disband.
> The northeast is easy. Silesia can take Munich.
>
If there's a will, there's a way.
sil-war
boh-mun
bul-rum
Budapest can be held.
There are other combinations available as well. When doing the moves, take
into account 3 out of 4 of SER,BUL,CON,ANK lost with the 4th lost next year.
That means I would need BUD plus two more this turn.
I think it might be worthwhile to attempt to dislodge RUM without giving it
a retreat even at the expense of losing ANK.
Depending on the board, I may not request a replacement for the 4th center
next year and may be willing to disband in 1913 (doubtful, but it's
possible).
The goal is to once again put me in a position where the loss of a single
Italian unit gives France a forced win. This pretty much means Russia
cannot build again and probably means he's going to have to accept a disband
or two.
Roberto
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
>Ser S Rum-Bul, Con S Rum-Bul, Aeg S Con has
potential,
I see that you are choosing suggestions that do not
require our active cooperation. A wise place to
start.
>10-10-14
The problem with that is how do I prevent that from
turning into 12-12-10, then 14-14-6, then 17-17-0?
--Prince Boar
__________________________________________________
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Message from Russia to France
Xavier,
> >Ser S Rum-Bul, Con S Rum-Bul, Aeg S Con has
> >potential,
>I see that you are choosing suggestions that do not
>require our active cooperation. A wise place to
>start.
It was more that it destroyed F Bul/EC and gave
me Rum and/or Sev. 8-)
> >10-10-14
>The problem with that is how do I prevent that from
>turning into 12-12-10, then 14-14-6, then 17-17-0?
Whom do you trust more, me, or Ivy? Whom do you think
that I trust more? I know that I can work to a two-way
with you. I know nothing about Ivy/Allen. Even given
the EIR pressure in the West, can your defense of
France be cracked? If I push too far in Austria, how
long will it be before Ivy attacks Swe/StP/War? Is it
worth it to me to risk the loss by pushing for a
two-way or solo, when a three-way with you and Allen
will substantially boost my JDPR, and give me bragging
rights for years to come? ;^} I was the 5th ranked
player in this game, and I was playing Russia, a
country that tends to Solo quickly, or lose, rather
than draw, so a three-way is a good result, as far as
I'm concerned.
Your Friend,
Nick.
Message from Italy to France
>
> I sent some possible orders earlier
> this morning. I like your idea of Rum
> -> Sev.
>
Your orders this morning included:
> BlS -> Sev
> Rum s BlS -> Sev
I'm confused by what appears to be two opposing statements. Could you
clarify please?
Roberto
Message from Italy to England
>
> I think it might be worthwhile to attempt to dislodge RUM
> without giving it a retreat
>
Same goes for Munich.
He can't rebuild them all.
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
>Could you clarify please?
Gladly
I first sent this (early in the morning):
> BlS -> Sev
> Rum s BlS -> Sev
Then when I read your message, I said this:
> I sent some possible orders earlier
> this morning. I like your idea of Rum
> -> Sev.
>
Basically I decide that I liked your suggestion more
than mine.
What did you think about my complete set of orders,
with that adjustment?
--Prince Boar
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Roberto Wrote >
> > Stopping France is more important than trying to keep > Roberto from
>losing Units, in my opinion.
>I am not of the mind to participate in a stop France campaign if the >
>outcome of the game would then be an EFR 3-way draw.
I understand that. I'm not proposing that you
sacrifice Centers for that good of the cause, only
that we choose the "best orders" for stopping France,
rather than crafting our orders to protect your
Center-count first, and harm France second.
>you're going to have to find it in your heart to figure out a way where I
>don't disband this turn. That probably means you're going
>to have to give something up.
I did not support France into your Centers this Spring,
nor did I suggest the moves you and France made that
has you down a Center at the moment. My responsibility
is not to save you from your own mistakes; it is to stop
France from winning the game.
>I have a suggested set of moves from France. I await
>the ER entry in the What-will-Italy-do-this-turn contest.
Given that you are suggesting moves to France, why
don't you suggest a set to us? Why should we share
any information with you at all, when it seems you
are working more closely with France than you are
with us? If you want a share of the draw, then
work to make it happen, otherwise stop wasting my
time with this, "I'll throw the game to France, if
you're not nice to me!", nonsense.
Nick.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
>Whom do you trust more, me, or Ivy? Whom do you
>think that I trust more?
That is kind of like asking which you like better
mixed in with your tuna fish, peanut butter or
marshmallow. You can choose, but do you like either
of them :-)
My point is that you probably do not trust either of
us. :-)
I am much more willing to agree to any plan that
accomplishes two things:
1) allows our units to act independently
2) allows us to separate our units
I admit that your suggestion does contain both
elements. I want to build one more unit:
+Ser, +Con, +Bul, -Rum, -Bud, -Mun
I seem to be one short. Any suggestions?
--Prince Boar
Message from Italy to England and Russia
>
> I understand that. I'm not proposing that you
> sacrifice Centers for that good of the cause, only
> that we choose the "best orders" for stopping France,
> rather than crafting our orders to protect your
> Center-count first, and harm France second.
>
This I can agree to.
Roberto
--------------------------------------------------------
>
> I did not support France into your Centers this Spring,
> nor did I suggest the moves you and France made that
> has you down a Center at the moment.
>
Than I am asking for my center back that you took from me in Fall 1911. You
remember, the season you did support France into one of my centers. You
have the center back I took from you in Spring 1909. I'm just asking for
equality.
> My responsibility is not to save you from your own mistakes;
> it is to stop France from winning the game.
And this included defending Vienna this spring correct?
I'm still awaiting a thank you from Russia for actually defending HIS center
for him.
My mistakes? Let's see. If I stop France from getting CON then I lose SEV.
I lost Serbia but gained Budapest. Hmmmm, you got a set of moves in your
bag that I could have made this spring to do better than what I did?
You have been reminding me of my mistakes for several years now. Allow me
to remind you that the brunt of my disbands the last few years are a direct
result of a series of lies from your fingertips. Thus, my responsibility is
not to save you from your lies; it is to punish you for them.
> >I have a suggested set of moves from France. I await
> >the ER entry in the What-will-Italy-do-this-turn contest.
>
> Given that you are suggesting moves to France, why
> don't you suggest a set to us?
>
Re-read what I wrote. I have a suggested set of moves FROM France. I am
not suggesting moves to him.
> Why should we share
> any information with you at all, when it seems you
> are working more closely with France than you are
> with us?
>
Do you want a draw or not? If yes, you have no choice but to deal with me,
my attitude, and the crazed irrational Idalia.
Other than that, France's set of moves HAS OPTIONS. Without information
from ER, how can I make sure France selects the correct option (or incorrect
option depending on which side of the fence you are on)?
Idalia
Message from Italy to England
Is it just me or is Nick not only a liar but also a hypocrite?
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
Recent discussions with Russia may make it possible
for one of our bets for #18 to pay off. He bascially
wants me to focus on eliminating your units and let
him have most of your centers. If he moved as I would
guess based on what he asks me to do, we may get that
#18 (with my proposed orders).
When are you likely to settle on a set of orders? I
am not rushing you, I just need to know if I need to
make time tonight to discuss it, and when would be the
best time for you.
--Prince Boar
PS: Did you want me to restate the movement proposal
or can you parse it together from my other statements?
__________________________________________________
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Message from Italy to England
>
> Message from France to Italy in 'titleist':
>
> Roberto:
>
> Recent discussions with Russia may make it possible
> for one of our bets for #18 to pay off. He bascially
> wants me to focus on eliminating your units and let
> him have most of your centers. If he moved as I would
> guess based on what he asks me to do, we may get that
> #18 (with my proposed orders).
>
What do you think to odds are that France is pulling my chain?
Message from Italy to France
>
> When are you likely to settle on a set of orders? I
> am not rushing you, I just need to know if I need to
> make time tonight to discuss it, and when would be the
> best time for you.
>
I recently settled on a set of orders. Russia opened his mouth one too many
times.
The following orders accommpany this note:
f bla s rum - sev
a bud - tri
a sil s a mun - ber
a boh s a tyr - vie
f bul holds and rejoices that the game may finally come to an end
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
Thanks for the note! I just wanted to verify one
order:
>f bul hold
I assume that Russia is ordering Mos -> Sev s by Ukr
Gal -> Rum. If that is true, he can only take one of
Bud/Rum! So holding seems good. I guess that he
could also order Gal -> Bud, Ukr -> Rum, Mos -> Sev.
If that was the case, Bul -> Rum would be best. What
do you think that Russia is likely to do? You may
know based on your discussions. I will let you make
the assessment and choose, there is really no reason
to debate it between us, unless you want to. I am
trying to save you time and effort :-)
--Prince Boar
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Message from Italy to France
>
> I assume that Russia is ordering Mos -> Sev s by Ukr
> Gal -> Rum. If that is true, he can only take one of
> Bud/Rum! So holding seems good.
And Bul - Rum does no harm.
> I guess that he
> could also order Gal -> Bud, Ukr -> Rum, Mos -> Sev.
> If that was the case, Bul -> Rum would be best.
Correct.
The risk would be that Russia does not order a unit to Rumania AND does not
double-support himself to SEV. In that case, I would end up in Rumania.
I'll flip the proverbial three-headed coin with two of the sides being
BUL-RUM and one-side being BUL hold. If either of us gets further
information, the number of sides to the coin can be increased or decreased.
> What do you think that Russia is likely to do?
>
Russia is not likely to tell me his orders. Even if he did, I wouldn't
believe them for a second.
As to what I think he will do? I can't imagine him not trying for SEV.
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
>
> The risk would be that Russia does not order a unit to
> Rumania AND does not
> double-support himself to SEV. In that case, I would end up
> in Rumania.
>
Even that's not entirely correct as I couldn't get to Rumania unless you got
to SEV. Puts us back at having to take Berlin and keep Munich in order for
18 to occur.
The risk would be UKR supp MOS-SEV and GAL supp BUL/ec-RUM.
Roberto
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
I have had trouble responding today. I've been working on this message for
5 hours -- 60 seconds at a time. Sort of. I am giving a final exam
tomorrow from 8-11 a.m. and am holding office hours today from 1 to 5. I
have had a constant stream of students in my office and I am getting
nothing else done. So this is written in fragments.
>Is it just me or is Nick not only a liar but also a hypocrite?
I don't know. He is so emotional, and therefore it is very difficult for
me to understand him. Working with him has been very draining. It is very
frustrating to exert so much effort only to see failure approaching.
*****************
> If yes, you have no choice but to deal with me, my attitude, and the
> crazed irrational Idalia.
I've thought about this in previous turns. That is, I have thought about
walking away from my role, whatever that is, and request that you and
Russia decide what to do. Just you and Russia. It's sort of a "sink or
swim, I don't care anymore" approach, but I can't take much more mediation.
What do you think?
******************************
>What do you think to odds are that France is pulling my chain?
I think France is trying get #18, if that is what you mean.
************
>If there's a will, there's a way.
>
>sil-war
>boh-mun
>bul-rum
>
>Budapest can be held.
Whew. Silesia->Warsaw may be a deal breaker. If you must go for a Russian
center, maybe Budapest supp Bohemia->Vienna. That pulls your units to the
south. The catch is that Tyrolia would have to be cut from Trieste instead
of Bohemia so that Munich will fall, and Russia probably won't want to do this.
I do know that we can destroy the army in Munich unless France actually
retreats Burgundy or Tyrolia. By the same token I wouldn't be surprised if
he attempts to destroy your fleet in Bulgaria.
I expect to be available tomorrow afternoon and evening.
Ivy
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I cannot see Russia not doubly supporting himself and ordering nothing
to Rumania. He should do one or the other. Therefore Bul -> Rum seems
best.
Rum -> Sev is very likely to bounce.
The best we can hope for is:
Ukr s Mos -> Sev
Gal -> Rum
which allows me to have both Vie and Bud, another way to 18 and an
ending.
I trust your instincts (more than mine). Do what you think best.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
I will give your request some very serious thought. If I cannot come up
with something better, I will likely go with it. I had already
considered options similar to it. I want to make certain that I do not
lose that army in Rumania.
Best of luck to you.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to England
Ivy:
I have not heard from you? I hope that you are doing well.
See you on the otherside of tonight.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to France
This is my end of year statement for 1912, Part A
I am writing it as I turn in fall orders.
I told Italy in the spring that I would take the ending he wanted. I
was sincere about it. It was because I felt badly about some fall out
between us due to my 1911 Broadcast. A careless mistake. I have lost a
lot of desire to go on playing this game. I hope that it ends this
year. Italy told me he wants a French solo so there will not be a
Russian participation in any draw. I have choosen to trust him.
If it turns out that I am wrong, I will go with plan B. I will try to
eliminate Italy and fall back enough that Russia will eventually take
him out. I will then propose a FRE draw, perhaps with a randomly
determined winner.
If I am perfectly honest, there is certainly a part of me that does want
the win and was glad that Italy choose that path. But it is not as big
a part as I would normally have. I do feel badly about betraying
Russia.
I wonder what surprises this turn will bring. I hope that my plan is
better than my spring plan.
Roger
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
>Your suggestion of how to save Ruhr while taking
>Munich risks the Channel, but I think it is worth it
I considered that, but figured that as France has
to defend Bur and Pic against possible attacks, a
supported attack on ECh was unlikely.
>I am thinking about stepping aside and asking you
>and Italy to work out your differences. What do you think?
I was actually planning to respond to the latest
Italian missive by saying that I would offer my
ideas to you, and listen favorabley to whatever
you reccommend. His passive-agressive attitude
is too frustrating for me to deal with, anymore.
Perhaps you could ask him what France suggested,
and use that in planning.
>Harrisburg, huh!
Yup. Small world, aye?
Nick.
Message from Italy to England
>
> I've thought about this in previous turns. That is, I have
> thought about walking away from my role, whatever that is,
> and request that you and Russia decide what to do. Just
> you and Russia. It's sort of a "sink or swim, I don't care
> anymore" approach, but I can't take much more mediation.
>
> What do you think?
>
I think you've done a fine job in the role of mediator. It would have
worked, except apparently Nick was reading the wrong page, in the wrong
chapter, in the wrong book.
I also think you should reduce your role as mediator and spend some time
with your family and friends during the holiday season. No reasonable man
should have this hanging over his head.
>
> Whew. Silesia->Warsaw may be a deal breaker.
>
Didn't mean it that way. Sorry. Those were just examples of how not to
force an Italian disband. I would not and am not advocating for Silesia to
Warsaw.
> By the same token I wouldn't be surprised if he attempts to
> destroy your fleet in Bulgaria.
>
How much are you willing to gamble this turn? Sounds like a stupid
question, but I'm serious.
France and I have agreed to a set of orders. My orders are entered without
wait. The moves are a virtual lock to give France 18. I can come up with a
set of orders that would counter these moves quite nicely. They require
Nick to fully and completely obey to the letter.
The counter moves are as follows:
hol - kie
tri - vie
gal - rum
mos - sev
ukr - sev
lvn hold (next year lvn-mos-sev)
Assure him that he will still own 6 centers and have 1 build. You can even
add that you would advocate for Mos-Sev-Arm next year. Most likely I would
want VIE or TRI in return but we can bang our heads against the wall next
spring if we make it that far.
I would also suggest to you the following:
ruh - bur
ber - kie
There are no counter moves for you to make progress in the west. Yes, I am
not asking for support into Munich.
You'd bounce Russia in Kiel but I'd rather have you building in England
proper than another Russian unit in STP. [note, Russia would still get a
build]
All of this is predicated on the hope that France will do as he has said he
will. I have very little choice but to believe him.
It is absolutely imperative for my survival, and alas your fate, that I not
disband this turn. If Russia supports himself to either SEV or RUM this
turn, it is for sure that I will have to remove a unit. The fewer units I
have, the less opportunity I have to assist. The less opportunity I have to
assist, the more likely a French solo becomes. Regardless of what Nick
thinks, he cannot replace the loss of my units fast enough.
I have spent virtually the last 24 hours diploming and studying the map.
These suggestions are not off the cuff. They are very well thought out.
I intentionally left out my troop movements. I apologize in advance for
that.
One last thought. If I betray France this turn, I am fairly confident I
will be eliminated. My only glimmer of hope would be that you would not
assist in the dislodgement of Italian army Munich. I only consider
betraying France out of respect for your play throughout the game.
Roberto
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
> > I'm proposing that we choose the "best orders" for > stopping France,
>rather than crafting our orders > to protect your Center-count first, [or
>my Center
> > count, for that matter.
>This I can agree to.
Thank you.
>I'm still awaiting a thank you from Russia for actually defending HIS
>center for him.
Since I didn't ask you to do it, I interpreted it as
an attack, which the French move from Tyl-Ven was
defending against, at my request.
>If I stopped France from getting CON then I'd lose SEV.
Perhaps. Given France's betrayal, I could have moved
on to Arm to help you retake Smy, or you could have
supported Smy-Rum, and destroyed the French Army there.
>my responsibility is not to save you from your lies;
>it is to punish you for them.
You're free to try to throw the game to France, or you
can work with Ivy and I to stop France, and stand a
decent chance to share of a four-way draw, but you have
to decide which makes more sense at this point. For
the mathmatically minded, the choice seems obvious.
>I have a suggested set of moves FROM France.
Sorry, I would write this as, "France has suggested
moves to me." Would you care to share France's
suggestions with Ivy, so that he can use them in his
planning? It would make our response more effective.
>Do you want a draw or not? If yes, you have no
>choice but to deal with me, my attitude,
Oh, I'd be willing to bet that France would delay his
solo long enough to see you eliminated, and your
attitude tempts me to propose just that to him. The
question is do YOU want a draw or not? If you do,
then make a contribution toward accomplishing it.
>France's set of moves HAS OPTIONS. Without information
>from ER, how can I make sure France selects the correct
>option (or incorrect option depending on which side of
>the fence you are on)?
You could act like an ally, and share that information
with Ivy, so that he could craft the most effective
response. Then you'd actually get useful information
from ER. How about it, care to work toward the goal?
I'm going to offer my best guess moves to Ivy, and let
him synthesize a set of orders from them and his ideas,
and anything you'd care to contribute to the alliance,
and let him propose moves. Beyond that, I'm going to
step back, because my anger is not helping this
situation any.
Nick.
Message from Russia to France
>you probably do not trust either of us. :-)
Completely? No, but it should be clear that I would
not have conspired with you to eliminate Italy, and I
wouldn't have tried to keep you at 13 or 14 Centers,
if I trusted Ivy to not eliminate me at the first
opportunity.
>I want to build one more unit:
>+Ser, +Con, +Bul, -Rum, -Bud, -Mun
>I seem to be one short. Any suggestions?
I'd suggest that you disband Mun when forced to
retreat. 8-) That would allow you to build.
Nick.
Message from Italy to Russia
For your information, I sent a proposal I had worked on all day to Ivy
approximately 10 minutes prior to receiving your last message.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
>I'd suggest that you disband Mun when forced to
>retreat. 8-)
Didn't you try that once? ;-)
Say have your heard from Ivy lately? It has been a while since I heard
from him. With you writing less, my mailbox is truly empty these days.
Oh well, I can worry about it in the morning. I need to catch up on
some serious sleep. Someone still does not have orders in (i do). I
hope that I will see the damage in the morning. It is my son's birthday
(our family's 4th B-day in less than two months!). With that and the
holidays, I am broke! If you have any spare Roubles, send them my way!
I see that we are getting about 4 Roubles to the Franc, so you better
send several.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Russia
Ah, I see that the deadline is tomorrow not tonight.
--PB
Message from France to England, Italy, and Russia
My orders are in without wait. Feel free to do the same when you can
(no pressure). Tomorrow is my son's birthday, so I will likely be
available during the day and then not until very late.
--Prince Boar
Message from England to Italy
>I also think you should reduce your role as mediator and spend some time
>with your family and friends during the holiday season.
You don't have to worry about that. I will have a wonderful holiday.
>No reasonable man
>should have this hanging over his head.
This experience has been frustrating only within the carefully walled-off
world of Diplomacy. Again, don't worry.
>How much are you willing to gamble this turn? Sounds like a stupid
>question, but I'm serious.
Sure, why not?
>I would also suggest to you the following:
>
>ruh - bur
>ber - kie
>
>There are no counter moves for you to make progress in the west. Yes, I am
>not asking for support into Munich.
But you are moving Silesia->Munich anyway?
>My only glimmer of hope would be that you would not
>assist in the dislodgement of Italian army Munich
So, apparently you do plan to slip into Munich.
Are the following moves consistent with your plans?:
Holland->Kiel
Berlin & Ruhr supp Silesia->Munich
North Sea supp Channel->Belgium (to protect Belgium)
Belgium->Burgundy (to prevent Munich from taking Ruhr)
The intent is to destroy the French army in Munich and replace it with Silesia.
The Channel is vulnerable, but losing it would not be fatal. I doubt that
France will go for it. That's a gamble I was already going to take. [If
you really are helping France, feel free to inform him 8-) ]
We can count on Holland->Kiel to block a retreat of Munich to the north,
because Holland->Kiel also gets Russia Kiel (in exchange for Belgium which
he voluntarily handed to me).
Your suggestion of Berlin to Kiel would bounce Holland->Kiel and result in
my taking a center from Russia (Belgium without compensation). That could
result in a diplomatic problem that I would like to avoid if necessary. If
your intent was only to block France from retreating to Kiel, then
Holland->Kiel suffices.
I vow to support your presence in Munich as long as I have breath.
What I really want to know is whether the the moves that I have described
would mess up your plans. I am not asking for your plans or France's
plans.
Ivy
Message from England to France
>I have not heard from you?
But I did write. It was mostly a social note mentioning my son at the
University of Rochester. Did you not get it?
Ivy
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>>Your suggestion of how to save Ruhr while taking
>>Munich risks the Channel, but I think it is worth it
>
>I considered that, but figured that as France has
>to defend Bur and Pic against possible attacks, a
>supported attack on ECh was unlikely.
Yes, we agree.
>>I am thinking about stepping aside and asking you
>>and Italy to work out your differences. What do you think?
>
>I was actually planning to respond to the latest
>Italian missive by saying that I would offer my
>ideas to you, and listen favorabley to whatever
>you reccommend. His passive-agressive attitude
>is too frustrating for me to deal with, anymore.
>Perhaps you could ask him what France suggested,
>and use that in planning.
I'll do my best. I wasn't in the greatest of moods when I wrote the
"stepping aside" note. I'll get back to you.
Ivy
Message from Russia to Italy
>Message from Italy to Russia in 'titleist':
>For your information, I sent a proposal I had worked
>on all day to Ivy approximately 10 minutes prior to
>receiving your last message.
Thank you.
Message from Italy to England
>
> But you are moving Silesia->Munich anyway?
>
Yes.
>
> What I really want to know is whether the the moves that I
> have described would mess up your plans?
>
No.
I have not changed my orders yet but I have entered wait. I await your
broadcast of suggested moves and can only hope that they and the results are
vaguely similar to my suggestions.
Roberto
Message from Italy to England
I've feeling a bit guilty about keeping my EIR moves a secret from you.
Also, if you could spare a moment to make sure I didn't miss anything. :)
I respectfully request that you keep this information as confidential as
possible.
These moves assume full cooperation from Russia as outlined in my previous
message.
bla supp bul/ec - con
boh supp sil - mun
bud - ser
France is expecting:
bla supp rum - sev
sil supp mun - ber
boh supp tyr - vie
ser supp bud - tri
bul/ec - rum
Any comments? I don't believe fleet Bulgaria can be destroyed. Munich is
toast.
Roberto
ps: I still don't trust Nick and probably never will.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>I've feeling a bit guilty about keeping my EIR moves a secret from you.
>Also, if you could spare a moment to make sure I didn't miss anything. :)
>
>I respectfully request that you keep this information as confidential as
>possible.
Now you've done it. If things go awry with the French moves, how will you
know whom to blame, me or Nick?
I hope I can get by with revealing as little as possible to Nick,
preferably nothing. Also, I'd like to disappear until tomorrow afternoon.
There should be plenty of time to sort this out with Nick then, for better
or worse.
I'll look at your moves carefully by then. They seem good to me.
Ivy
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
I have some renewed optimism that Italy will come around. It's bedtime for
me now, and I have a 3-hour final exam to administer tomorrow. I'll be
back in touch in the afternoon.
Ivy
Message from France to England
Ivy:
>But I did write. It was mostly a social note mentioning my son at the
>University of Rochester. Did you not get it?
I missed it and accidentally filed it with my other mail. I was not
able to get to my normal mail all day and was sending judge mail via a
new yahoo account. At home I download all my message for the day (that
I normally would have read via a web page). I confused it with the list
of messages that I was sending to both accounts.
You will have to let me know when you come to Rochester. I realize that
your time up here will be short and you will want to see your son, but
perhaps we can get together for lunch or something. Who knows, the
Steelers might be on TV? :-)
I hope that Titleist will be over by then. If not we can just agree to
not talk about it. We could talk about optics instead! By the way,
when I am not trying to conquer Europe, I am a Coating Development
Engineer at Kodak.
Time for bed.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Master
Doug:
I just wanted to give you a heads up that I may suddenly need an absence
for a personal matter. I am not certain when, or even if (hopefully).
If possible I will try to avoid a long extension. There is nothing for
you to do now, I just wanted to give you some warning.
Roger
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
>>Hence I am willing to risk that you
>>do not want Russia to succeed at any cost, even more than
>>you might not want me to succeed.
>The risk, in this case, would be well worth taking for you.
*********
>I recently settled on a set of orders. Russia opened his mouth
>one too many times.
I smile when I think of these two comments together. On the one hand it
means that maybe the risk was larger than you suggested. On the other
hand it could mean that the risk was low because Russia would eventually
open his mouth again :-)
I thought that the orders were due tonight. I forgot that the retreats
pushed back the fall deadline a day. We can continue to discuss the
options if you like, but I am comfortable with our plan and see no need
to take too much of your time. Unless I hear from you, I will leave you
be. Normally long silences make me nervous (I figure that someone is
changing their mind). I will do my best to resist writing you just of
reassurance.
--Prince Boar
Message from England to France
Prince Boar,
> By the way, when I am not trying to conquer Europe, I am a Coating
> Development Engineer at Kodak.
Ah, yes, Rochester/Kodak!
I am a mathematics professor at Bucknell University in Lewisburg, PA
I'm now racing off to give a 3-hour final exam this morning.
Ivy
Message from Russia to France
Xavier,
>Say have your heard from Ivy lately?
It turns out Ivy is a University Math Prof, and it's
Finals week. He's been busy. 8-)
>If you have any spare Roubles, send them my way!
Sorry, Sergei is always demanding more money for that
damned TSR. (Trans-Siberian Railway, not Tactical
Studies Rules. 8-) It's a bit like being married,
no matter how much you make, your spouse always
manages to spend a little more than that. ;^}
Nick.
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
Here is my "best guess":
Russia:
A UKRAINE S Bul/EC-Rum
F HOLLAND-Kie
A TRIESTE-Ser
A GALICIA S Bul/EC-Rum
A MOSCOW-Sev
Italy:
F BLACK SEA-Ank
A SILESIA-Mun
A BOHEMIA-Vie
F BULGARIA/EC-Rum
A BUDAPEST S Tri-Ser
Italy gains three and loses three or four, depending on
whether France attacks Bul. Bul/EC S Bla-Rum is another
possibility, but that risks losing Ank. I don't see how
Italy can do better in terms of Center-count. Boh-Tyl is
actually a better move, since it cuts Tyl S Mun, or moves
adjacent to Venice, but Boh-Vie is probably more likely
to meet with Italian approval.
Nick.
Message from Master to France
>I just wanted to give you a heads up that I may suddenly need an
>absence for a personal matter. I am not certain when, or even if
>(hopefully). If possible I will try to avoid a long extension. There
>is nothing for you to do now, I just wanted to give you some warning.
Okay -- keep me posted.
Doug
Message from Master to England and France
> By the way, when I am not trying to conquer Europe, I am a Coating
> Development Engineer at Kodak.
Trivia: the Rochester, NY area is #1 in the nation in patents-per-
resident, due largely to Kodak. Burlington, VT, is #5, due to my
employer, IBM. Do you have any personally, Roger? I have none,
despite my management and co-workers efforts to get me to do the
work involved in taking a good idea to the patent office.
Back to your regularly scheduled conquest . . .
Doug
Message from France to Master and England
Doug:
>Trivia: the Rochester, NY area is #1 in the nation
>in patents-per-resident, due largely to Kodak.
I think that Xerox also plays a very big part in that.
These two companies are typically in the top 10 in
patents most years. That may change with Xerox having
it's problems and selling/spinning it's Research
portion.
> Do you have any personally, Roger?
About 5. I am working 2-3 more. Taking an idea from
experiments to a patent is sort of like visiting the
dentist. It can be tedious and painful, but is often
necessary. We do it because it is the right thing to
do :-)
With that glowing endorsement, I am sure that you will
rush out and try to get involved in the process!:-)
Back to work now. :-)
Roger
__________________________________________________
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Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
I sent this to Ivy earlier, but he indicated he would
be busy today, so I figured I should send it to you,
as well. I don't know what you proposed to Ivy, or
what France proposed to you, so this is pretty much
straight tactics and gut feeling for what France will
do:
----------------------------------------------------
Message from Russia to England in 'titleist':
Ivy,
Here is my "best guess":
Russia:
A UKRAINE S Bul/EC-Rum
F HOLLAND-Kie
A TRIESTE-Ser
A GALICIA S Bul/EC-Rum
A MOSCOW-Sev
Italy:
F BLACK SEA-Ank
A SILESIA-Mun
A BOHEMIA-Vie
F BULGARIA/EC-Rum
A BUDAPEST S Tri-Ser
Italy gains three and loses three or four, depending on
whether France attacks Bul. Bul/EC S Bla-Rum is another
possibility, but that risks losing Ank. I don't see how
Italy can do better in terms of Center-count. Boh-Tyl is
actually a better move, since it cuts Tyl S Mun, or moves
adjacent to Venice, but Boh-Vie is probably more likely
to meet with Italian approval.
Nick.
End of message.
--------------------------------------------------------
Message from Russia to France
Xavier, My Friend,
Would you be willing to not attack or support attacks
on my Centers before Italy is eliminated, if I agree
to work with you to eliminate Italy? Obviously, you
could make, and then break that promise, but I would
hope that you would not feel that was necessary. I'm
rapidly approaching the point where eliminating Italy
is becoming more important than securing a place in
the draw.
Nick.
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Nick & Roberto,
I have found recent correspondence to be most illuminating, and I have
great confidence in the upcoming turn. I will be sending each of you a set
of moves. I was going to say a "suggested" set, but I fear the
consequences of debate. What the three of us need most is the experience
of successful coordination. Once we have that, each turn thereafter will
be increasingly easy.
I don't think I have ever asked either of you to trust me blindly, but I am
asking that now. Just for this one turn. The moves I will request are not
those suggested by either of you, nor are they foolproof, but for various
reasons I truly believe they are the "right" moves. First and foremost
they are designed to stop France.
I am on my knees and begging. The message I wish to get back from each of
you is, "yes, I will do as you request, but if anything goes wrong you will
pay dearly." That would be fair; it's all I ask. Frankly,if we fail, we
all pay dearly.
I cannot tell you how important this mission is. You know that believers
in our cause are watching. What I can promise is this. If you make these
moves for the greater good of the mission, then you shall have the glory of
eternity in paradise, and there you will have the companionship of 50
specially selected virgins. Deviate from these moves and you will meet
your fate in a cold, dark cave.
Ivy
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
"The moves I will request are not those suggested by either of you" --
that's a lie, of course. The moves are precisely your moves, based on your
knowledge of what France probably intends. I wrote that in an attempt to
placate Russia, who suggested other moves.
I will be surprised if Nick doesn't ask for more detail or if he doesn't at
least ask why I don't trust him with the detail.
Ivy
Message from Italy to England
Russia sent me his set of suggestions this morning. I just read them. They
actually don't interfere with the plans. I wouldn't support him to Serbia
but rather bounce France in Vienna. I may not take the support into
Rumania, but if it meant no retreat for the French army I'd be hard pressed
not to accept it.
If you haven't sent the moves yet, let's talk first.
Roberto
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
Here goes:
Holland->Kiel
Trieste->Vienna
Galicia->Rumania
Moscow->Sevastopol (bounce)
Ukraine->Sevastopol (bounce)
Livonia hold
Next year, I anticipate Mos->Sev->Arm and quite possibly
Livonia->Moscow->Sevastopol
I've put a lot if time into this, and if you ask me tomorrow why I have
selected these moves, then I expect to be able to give you a complete
response. I have suppressed detail, mostly because I am trying to avoid
rancorous debate. There are other reasons.
For heavens sake, please don't even suggest to France that a major effort
is being made to stop him. I think he thinks that we are in complete disarray.
Ivy
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Nick, Roberto,
Hold the presses. There may have to be an adjustment. Please be patient.
Ivy
Message from England to Italy
>If you haven't sent the moves yet, let's talk first.
I just sent them, but followed with a "hold the presses" message.
Here is what Russia sent me. Are these the moves that Russia sent you?
Note Moscow->Sevastopol.
Russia:
A UKRAINE S Bul/EC-Rum
F HOLLAND-Kie
A TRIESTE-Ser
A GALICIA S Bul/EC-Rum
A MOSCOW-Sev
Italy:
F BLACK SEA-Ank
A SILESIA-Mun
A BOHEMIA-Vie
F BULGARIA/EC-Rum
A BUDAPEST S Tri-Ser
I will get back to e-mail after lunch.
Ivy
Message from Russia to England
>For heavens sake, please don't even suggest to France that a major effort
>is being made to stop
>him. I think he thinks that we are in complete
>disarray.
You mean we're not??? 8-)
Nick.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
I already thought that attacking Italian centers was the
plan? Of course you slipped your taking Rumania into the
plan. Actually Rumania is impossible for me to
hold long term anyway. I prefer Trieste. Let's trade.
If you can find a way to take Budapest and hold Vienna,
you will be a wise man. Actually I do not think that you
cant take Sev, Rum, Bud and hold Vie even if you trusted
me to move as ordered.
The possibilities are making my head spin.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
Either Russia is really ticked off with you or else he is
trying to con me into not making the best moves. Perhaps
a bit of both. He expressed a strong desire to eliminate
you (but told me no details about your conversation).
If I agreed to not attack or support any attacks on his
units, what moves is he likely to make? Can we use that
information?
Perhaps you two should just not write each other, you
both would probably be happier. :-) Well either the game
will end tomorrow or else there may be a long delay. I
may have to go out of town suddenly and then there is the
holiday. Either way you can get a break from each other.
--Prince Boar
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Ivy and Roberto,
>Message from England to Russia and Italy in 'titleist':
>The message I wish to get back from each of you is, "yes, I will do as you
>request, but if anything
>goes wrong you will pay dearly." That would be fair; it's all I ask.
>Frankly, if we fail, we all pay dearly.
The best I can do is to promise to do as you request,
IF AND ONLY IF Italy agrees to do so, as well. I may
not be as mathematically-minded as either one of you, 8-)
but I do have three semesters of Formal Logic, and a
Bachelors degree in Computer Science, so I use that
construct with full knowledge of its meaning.
>If you make these moves for the greater good of
>the mission, then you shall have the glory of
>eternity in paradise, and there you will have
>the companionship of 50 specially selected virgins. Deviate from these
>moves and you will meet your fate
>in a cold, dark cave.
I'm not sure that eternity with 50 virgins meets my
definition of "Paradise", but I understand the
cultural reference. ;^}
Nick.
Message from Russia to France
Xavier,
>The possibilities are making my head spin.
Yeah, they call it "Balkanization" for a reason,
don't they? 8-) I'm pretty dizzy myself.
Nick.
Message from Italy to England and Russia
>
> The best I can do is to promise to do as you request,
> IF AND ONLY IF Italy agrees to do so, as well. I may
> not be as mathematically-minded as either one of you, 8-)
> but I do have three semesters of Formal Logic, and a
> Bachelors degree in Computer Science, so I use that
> construct with full knowledge of its meaning.
>
Only two semesters of logic, a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science, and
14+ years experience as a programmer. (Me thinks Ivy probably has us both
beat on the education front though)
Italy_Flag = Null
Select Case Russia_Flag
"Y": Italy_Flag = "Y"
End Select
I am quite familiar with the IIF construct and understand its meaning.
My grammar, on the other hand, can sometimes use some work. :)
Roberto
--------------------------
Nick, what say we communicate in programming language from now on. Perhaps
a common bond will help strengthen our relationship?
Message from Italy to England
>
> Note Moscow->Sevastopol.
>
I know. That's the one that bothers me the most since if FR are still in
cohoots and France doesn't move there, I lose SEV without the ability to be
mad at Russia.
> Russia:
> A UKRAINE S Bul/EC-Rum
> F HOLLAND-Kie
> A TRIESTE-Ser
> A GALICIA S Bul/EC-Rum
> A MOSCOW-Sev
>
> Italy:
> F BLACK SEA-Ank
> A SILESIA-Mun
> A BOHEMIA-Vie
> F BULGARIA/EC-Rum
> A BUDAPEST S Tri-Ser
>
Exactly.
I would modify Russia's orders just slightly.
a tri - vie
The rest would be his suggestions. I would order bud-ser. He risks losing
Trieste but he's going to lose that next year most likely anyway when pie
gets to venice.
So, my suggestions for your suggestions :) feel free to massage particulars
(ie: Trieste and Budapest can be mixed and matched)
Russia:
ukr s bul/ec - rum
hol - kie
tri - vie
gal s bul/ec - rum
mos - sev
Italy:
bla - ank
sil - mun
boh s sil - mun (have to assure the destruction of Munich)
bul/ec - rum
bud - ser
>From my count, Russia has the following centers:
hol,kie,swe,stp,war,mos,(vie or tri) That's two builds. I don't think he
can ask for more. He'd also have a chance at SEV. I hope not but it's
possible. However, next year he could probably get SEV and/or RUM.
If everybody moves as they've said, I'd end up with six centers
(ank,bul,rum,sev,bud,mun) so I have a cushion. If France doesn't move to
SEV and goes for BUL instead, I end up with four. I can live with that.
> I just sent them, but followed with a "hold the presses" message.
I got the 'hold the presses' message but not the moves message. Did you
only send them to Russia?
Thanks for your efforts,
Roberto
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
The only way to eliminate Italy this year is the
following:
Mos -> Sev s Ukr
Con -> Ank
Aeg -> Con
Rum -> Bul s by Ser
Gal -> Bud s by Tri (opposite gets broke by Sil/Boh)
Tyr -> Vie
assuming that he does not order
Bul -> Rum s BlS
Bud -> Ser
or
Bud -> Vie s by Boh
I suppose that the latter could be dealt with by Mun ->
Boh. But then Sil -> Mun s by Boh would need to be
dealt with.
I think that it is too far fetched to actually try. And
that may give me 18 centers if Munich gets bounced and
not dislodged and Vienna is not bounced.
Balkan Blaster:
Add Bulgaria, Rumania, Budapest, Serbia into a blender.
Mix on high. Added chilled Greece and Trieste. Shake
gently and serve with a garnish of Vienna.
--Prince Boar
PS: Did Italy irritate you this morning or something?
Message from Italy to England
I just received the following from France:
>
> Either Russia is really ticked off with you or else he is
> trying to con me into not making the best moves. Perhaps
> a bit of both. He expressed a strong desire to eliminate
> you (but told me no details about your conversation).
>
Russia's suggestions of supporting me to Rumania make me nervous.
I need time to think.
I'll answer France and get back to you.
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
>
> If I agreed to not attack or support any attacks on his
> units, what moves is he likely to make? Can we use that
> information?
>
I would say he would move:
ukr supp mos-sev
gal supp tri-bud (or vice-versa)
Here are the moves he suggested I make
> F BLACK SEA-Ank
> A SILESIA-Mun
> A BOHEMIA-Vie
> F BULGARIA/EC-Rum
> A BUDAPEST S Tri-Ser
He attacks Budapest and I have no retreat since, presumably, boh/tyr bounce
in Vienna. You also attack Bulgaria and that fleet doesn't have a retreat.
He's trying to eliminate me by eliminating my units.
Both Ivy and I have had a hard time figuring out his agenda. He wants a
3-way draw but he must realize that's not possible. Got to be driving him
nuts.
If he double attacks BUD, I think you'll need both MUN and BER to get to 18
this year.
Roberto
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Roberto and Ivy,
>Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
R > The best I can do is to promise to do as you request,
R > IF AND ONLY IF Italy agrees to do so, as well.
I > (Me thinks Ivy probably has us both
I > beat on the education front though)
No doubt. 8-)
I > Italy_Flag = Null
I > Select Case Russia_Flag
I > "Y": Italy_Flag = "Y"
I > End Select
I > Nick, what say we communicate in programming
I > language from now on. Perhaps a common bond
I > will help strengthen our relationship?
Oh, dear, I work in State Government, you really
don't wanna speak COBOL, do you? ;^}
Italy_Agrees Pic X(3).
Russia_Agrees Pic X(3) Value "Yes".
[...]
IF Italy_Agrees NOT = "Yes"
MOVE "No" TO Russia_Agrees.
I suggest that you reinitialize your Flag, or we'll
have a problem... 8-)
Nick.
Message from Russia to France
Xavier,
>PS: Did Italy irritate you this morning or something?
Italy has made it his life mission to irritate me
since he left Rome, it seems. 8-) After you took
Serbia, and didn't support me to Sev, I naturally
wrote to EI, and said, "Whoops, France fooled me.
I'm a sucker. Can we work together to stop the
French Solo at this point?" Italy's response was,
"Send me a set of moves. I'll compare them with
France's suggestions, and decide what I'm going
to do. I won't offer moves; I won't agree to
moves; you'll just have to hope that your moves
are better for me than France's are." Followed
later by, "You need me to stop France, so I can
be a bastard, and there's nothing you can do
about it." (These aren't exact quotes, but they
convey the tone, spirit and content of his letters.
My thought was, "Well, I can see your smug face
eliminated before France solos." *shrug*
I'll look over your moves this evening, and get
back to you.
Your Friend,
Nick.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
If Russia orders Gal -> Bud s Tri, we could order Rum ->
Bud to bounce the Galacian amry and have two chances at
18. I think that Gal -> Bud is more likely than Tri ->
Bud because you can break Galician support from Bohemia.
He could also order Gal -> Bud, Tri -> Vie or of course
Tri -> Vie s by Gal.
Bud -> Tri s by Ser
Rum -> Bud
Bls -> Rum
Bul -> Rum
works for all of them except Tri -> Bud s Gal
What do you think?
--Prince Boar
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>I got the 'hold the presses' message but not the moves message. Did you
>only send them to Russia?
Right. You already knew the moves. I sent you a message as follows:
>"The moves I will request are not those suggested by either of you" --
>that's a lie, of course. The moves are precisely your moves, based on your
>knowledge of what France probably intends. I wrote that in an attempt to
>placate Russia, who suggested other moves.
**************
>I know. That's the one that bothers me the most since if FR are still in
>cohoots
I keep saying things like, "if FR are in cahoots, we are dead anyway" or
"if FI are in cahoots we are dead anyway." Yet here we are, still alive,
somehow.
>So, my suggestions for your suggestions :) feel free to massage particulars
>(ie: Trieste and Budapest can be mixed and matched)
>
>Russia:
>ukr s bul/ec - rum
>hol - kie
>tri - vie
>gal s bul/ec - rum
>mos - sev
>
>Italy:
>bla - ank
>sil - mun
>boh s sil - mun (have to assure the destruction of Munich)
>bul/ec - rum
>bud - ser
OK, you have your moves, and I will e-mail Russia with the changes.
Ivy
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
Here are the revised moves that follow my "hold the presses" message. They
follow your suggestions more closely:
Ukraine supp Bulgaria(ec)->Rumania
Galicia supp Bulgaria(ec)->Rumania
Holland->Kiel
Trieste->Vienna
Moscow->Sevastopol
Comments: You may or may not get Sevastopol, but France most definitely
will not. Next year we surely must send your armies in that direction,
with support if necessary.
I expect Trieste->Vienna to bounce France.
Next year I fear that France will take Trieste, but if I am right we will
certainly have compensation for you.
I hope you can send me a message that says, "OK, provided that Italy agrees
to his moves."
**********************
> >For heavens sake, please don't even suggest to France that a major effort
> >is being made to stop
> >him. I think he thinks that we are in complete
> >disarray.
>
>You mean we're not??? 8-)
Not quite, in spite of our best attempts.
**************
Say, Nick, if you are from Harrisburg, why do so many of your messages seem
to be sent around 5 a.m. Up early? Up late?
Ivy
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
>Here are the revised moves:
>Ukraine supp Bulgaria(ec)->Rumania
>Galicia supp Bulgaria(ec)->Rumania
>Holland->Kiel
>Trieste->Vienna
>Moscow->Sevastopol
>I expect Trieste->Vienna to bounce France.
Ok, but it leaves Serbia as French.
>I hope you can send me a message that says, "OK, provided that Italy agrees
>to his moves."
OK, provided that Italy agrees to his moves. 8-)
**********************
> > > I think he thinks that we are in complete
> > >disarray.
> >You mean we're not??? 8-)
>Not quite, in spite of our best attempts.
I've actually been emphasizing all of the sniping
Italy and I have been doing in my letters to France.
It allows me to vent my very real frustration with
Ken's attitude, and makes Roger think a coordinated
defense is unlikely.
>if you are from Harrisburg, why do so many of your messages seem
>to be sent around 5 a.m. Up early? Up late?
Up early. Three computer users in the house, but
only one PC, so I'm only on a couple of evenings a
week, normally. I get up early, and have a cup
of tea, and respond to email, and try to get fully
awake.
Nick.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
> >Here are the revised moves:
>
> >Ukraine supp Bulgaria(ec)->Rumania
> >Galicia supp Bulgaria(ec)->Rumania
> >Holland->Kiel
> >Trieste->Vienna
> >Moscow->Sevastopol
>
> >I expect Trieste->Vienna to bounce France.
>
>Ok, but it leaves Serbia as French.
Something has to stay French.
> >I hope you can send me a message that says, "OK, provided that Italy agrees
> >to his moves."
>
>OK, provided that Italy agrees to his moves. 8-)
Thank you.
I'm certain that Italy will agree. I am entering moves now and I will
forward your "OK" to Italy.
Ivy
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
Nick says OK to these moves.
> >Ukraine supp Bulgaria(ec)->Rumania
> >Galicia supp Bulgaria(ec)->Rumania
> >Holland->Kiel
> >Trieste->Vienna
> >Moscow->Sevastopol
I am entering my moves now.
Ivy
Message from Italy to France
>
> Bud -> Tri s by Ser
> Rum -> Bud
> Bls -> Rum
> Bul -> Rum
> What do you think?
>
I think we should just leave the moves as is. If you don't hold Budapest,
I'm sure #18 won't be too difficult to come by next year considering England
will most likely have a disband as well.
The orders above actually are only different from what I have entered now by
the Black Sea fleet. If you're more comfortable with that move based on
your talks with Nick, I'll change it but I don't see tactically how it's any
better of guess than what we already have.
Roberto
Message from Italy to England, France, and Russia
My moves are in without wait......
Roberto
Message from England to Italy and Russia
>Message from Italy to England, France and Russia in 'titleist':
>
>My moves are in without wait...
As are mine. France's too,supposedly.
I even have "set draw" in. Hah, hah. Maybe France will be more interested
after this move.
Ivy
Message from France to Italy
>He's trying to eliminate me by eliminating my units.
Naturally. If he can bring you down to 1 or 2 units, then those units
combined with mine in the area would not be enough to get me to 18
centers. This is especially true if he has you denying me centers and
keeping me at 15 or 16. Then he can eliminate you before you can help
me win.
>Both Ivy and I have had a hard time figuring out his agenda.
Probably the above.
>I think we should just leave the moves as is.
>If you're more comfortable with that move based on
>your talks with Nick,
I have no information right now. I will go with your gut feel and stick
with the current plan.
If I get information that make me believe Nick will order Gal -> Bud,
will you be online tonight to make the change?
--Prince Boar
Message from Italy to France
>
> If I get information that make me believe Nick will order Gal -> Bud,
> will you be online tonight to make the change?
>
I will check my mail about 30 minutes prior to the deadline. However, I
don't have 'wait' set, so the moves could process before then.
Message from Italy to England
I have to tell you, my gut tells me that Russia will double support himself
to SEV and BUD. It actually won't get me upset because I expect it to
happen.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
No need to change the plan. Any attempt at trying to sway Nick may just
backfire. We will go with what we have.
I am looking forward to seeing the results. I realize that you could be
setting me up, but I said that I was putting the end game in your hands
and I am sticking with it. Winning would be nice, sure. But ending the
game asap is the biggest goal. I hope that you do not betray me because
the process of dancing with Russia to elimination would take too long.
Also, I like the idea of your surviving, your deserve that much, despite
what others might think.
Best of luck to us. My orders stand Ser s Bud -> Tri, Rum -> Sev, Tyr
-> Vie. It this does not work, feel free to make your best guess at
what units to disband, I trust your judgement. Ask me if you want an
opinion, but there is no need to slow down the game to get my opinion.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Master
Doug:
I am sorry that I caused the delay. I had an error in my last message.
I typed 'nowait' and not 'set nowait'
I cleared the error flag.
Roger
England: Army Belgium → Burgundy (*bounce*)
England: Army Berlin SUPPORT Italian Army Silesia → Munich
England: Fleet English Channel → Belgium (*bounce*)
England: Fleet Irish Sea → English Channel (*bounce*)
England: Fleet North Atlantic Ocean HOLD
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet English Channel → Belgium
England: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Italian Army Silesia → Munich
France: Fleet Aegean Sea → Constantinople (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Brest SUPPORT Army Picardy
France: Army Burgundy → Munich (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Constantinople → Ankara (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean HOLD
France: Army Munich → Berlin (*bounce, destroyed*)
France: Army Paris → Burgundy (*bounce*)
France: Army Picardy SUPPORT Army Paris → Burgundy
France: Army Piedmont → Venice
France: Army Rumania → Sevastopol (*bounce, destroyed*)
France: Army Serbia SUPPORT Italian Army Budapest → Trieste (*void*)
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) SUPPORT Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Army Tyrolia → Vienna (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Western Mediterranean SUPPORT Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean
Italy: Fleet Black Sea → Ankara (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Bohemia SUPPORT Army Silesia → Munich
Italy: Army Budapest → Serbia (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Bulgaria (east coast) → Rumania
Italy: Army Silesia → Munich
Russia: Army Galicia SUPPORT Italian Fleet Bulgaria (east coast) → Rumania
Russia: Fleet Holland → Kiel
Russia: Army Livonia → Prussia
Russia: Army Moscow → Sevastopol (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Trieste → Vienna (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Ukraine SUPPORT Italian Fleet Bulgaria (east coast) → Rumania
|