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Italy: Builds 2 units
Turkey: Builds 1 unit
Message from England to all
Hats off to Austria, for he is one of us.
Most of the rest of us will be joining you in good time, my friend.
Ivy Wingo
Message from England to France
Dauphin,
I gave it some thought, but finally decided that you and Italy were too
tight. The last move, in which Italy knew that he could have Spain if he
wanted it, only confirmed my feeling about FI.
I think that Italy betrayed Turkey, but I am not certain.
Ivy
Message from England to Turkey
Ali,
Hope you had a nice holiday.
That's the first time that Italy ever lied to me. It seemed so unnecessary
from my vantage point. The west would not have looked much different had
he been honest.
Perhaps he lied to me in order to cover lies to you? Were you especting
Italy in the Aegean or in Serbia?
Drop me a line when you get back.
As always,
Ivy
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
Congratulations on one small victory. StP still stands!
Here is what I think happened in the south. Tell me if this agrees with
what you know. Originally, Turkey was supposed to give you Sevastopol, and
he told me he was going to do this. At the last minute, Italy talked
Turkey into a deal. Turkey should keep Sevastopol and get Budapest in
addition. Italy was supposed to get Vienna and Spain. Yes Spain! Italy
brought me into the deal. I was supposed to vacate MAO voluntarily so that
Italy could walk into Spain. But Italy crossed everybody. He let France
keep Spain. Italy did help Turkey into Budapest, but only so that he could
get Serbia. The Ionian was supposed to go west against France, but instead
went to the Aegean. Tyrolia was supposed to go to Piedmont, but went to
Trieste.
Any consideration I might have had of attacking Germany disappeared when
Italy promised to attack France with two fleets and an army.
So, because of Italy, you do not have Sevastopol and I did not get Italian
help against France. Well, because of Italy and the gullibility of Turkey
and me.
Ivy Wingo
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
How about that!
Thats the first time that you were dishonest with me. Since it would have
made little difference in the west had you been honest, I suspect that you
had to lie to me in order to cover your play against Turkey.
Right?
Ivy
Message from Austria to all
> Most of the rest of us will be joining you in good time, my friend.
The Archduke fled the capital, and escaped in the confusion; from time to
time, I will pass on his messages and comments. At the moment, he is still
trying to familiarize himself with his new accomodations.
Miranda, for Austria-Hungary, by the Grace of Archduke Ferdinand
Message from Observer to Observer
Oh well, I thought Italy might use Austria as a puppet. I guess
that poll is over. And not enough of you voted, I don't think,
for Doug to tell us who Austria was, though my money was on
Rich Olver.
And I forgot that my other poll revealing my guesses on Russia
and France's identities goes out to you all, so you all saw it.
Anyway, I think we can nail all seven before the end of the game.
Russia WILL be out next.
Jim-Bob
Message from Observer to Observer
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
vgfp_titleist group:
Who will be the second power to be
eliminated (I don't even make Turkey a
choice since that won't happen ;-)??
o England
o France
o Germany
o Italy
o Russia
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vgfp_titleist/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
Message from Italy to England
>
> Thats the first time that you were dishonest with me. Since it would
> have made little difference in the west had you been honest, I suspect
> that you had to lie to me in order to cover your play against Turkey.
>
Exactly. It was an unfortunate side-effect of the negotiations we got
involved in the other day. I agonized over the moves but when I really
looked at what Turkey wanted me to do, I realized I would be setting myself
up for a huge fall in a year or two. Yes, I could have successfully
attacked France and gained MAR and SPA but I would have had to move several
units west to hold them. In the meantime, Turkey is at 8 and growing and I
have virtually no defense of GRE/VIE other than his good graces. In the
final analysis, I didn't want to see a 12-unit Turkey in the endgame. I
wouldn't like my chances.
Now, my 'war' with Turkey will undoubtedly take many years to achieve
success, if that's even possible. I definitely do not want to see you be
taken over by FG so I'm not going to completely clear out of the west;
however, I can't promise that I will attack France anytime in the near
future.
I had a difficult choice to make. My units were already east. If I was
going to make a play for Turkey, it had to be now.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Italy to Russia
> Goodbye, Ali. I'd like to say it was nice working with you,
> but since you never did work with me, I really can't.
>
Is there something I should/need to do to make sure I don't get a similar
letter in the future?
Taking on Turkey was a difficult decision to make. One that I made on my
own without expecting any assistance. It was now or never though. I fully
expect a long and drawn out fight.
I make no claim to further centers and would be interested in working with
you to split some Turkish centers. I realize that you have your hands full
with Germany and it might be best for you just to have Turkey and I fight
but if you are interested in support for an attack let me know.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Observer to Observer
--- In vgfp_titleist@y..., burgess@w... wrote:
> Oh well, I thought Italy might use Austria as a puppet. I guess
> that poll is over. And not enough of you voted, I don't think,
> for Doug to tell us who Austria was, though my money was on
> Rich Olver.
Part of the reason I knew Austria was soon to die was that I was
reading IT's collaborative emails, as well as the fact that Austria
just stopped sending any press. And in this Email Diplomacy, if you
stop writing, you die.
> And I forgot that my other poll revealing my guesses on Russia
> and France's identities goes out to you all, so you all saw it.
>
> Anyway, I think we can nail all seven before the end of the game.
> Russia WILL be out next.
So right now you think its:
England: Allen (99%)
Russia: Eric (90+%)
France: Roger (?%)
Austria: Rich
Italy: ?
Turkey: ?
Germany: ?
(With Ken, Jeff, and Randy remaining)
Maybe I'll let you guess things "Mastermind" style. :-)
Doug
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
> Congratulations on one small victory. StP still stands!
Yes, that is rather ironic. I assumed that Fredd would order
Sil-War, but figured that I should do everything possible to defend
StP for "political" reasons, and it actually worked. Of course, for
the second year in a row, the Turk has promised orders that would
give me a build, and then reneged.
> Here is what I think happened in the south. Turkey was supposed
> to give you Sevastopol, and he told me he was going to do this.
Yes. From the moment I proposed having the Turk destroy the
Austrian Army in Sev, the intention was to return it to Russian control.
Ali actually argued more strongly in favor of it, in fact.
> At the last minute, Italy talked Turkey into a deal. Turkey should
> keep Sevastopol and get Budapest in addition.
Well, the agreement called for me to get Sev, Turkey Bud, and
Italy Vie.
> Italy was supposed to get Vienna and Spain. Yes Spain! Italy
> brought me into the deal. I was supposed to vacate MAO voluntarily
> so that Italy could walk into Spain. But Italy crossed everybody. He
> let France keep Spain. Italy did help Turkey into Budapest, but only
> so that he could get Serbia. The Ionian was supposed to go west
> against France, but instead went to the Aegean. Tyrolia was
> supposed to go to Piedmont, but went to Trieste.
Interesting... That does explain why the Turk betrayed me again. I
have, of course, suspected that Italy was doing a masterful job of
manipulating Austria and the Turk, but this does confirm it. (Does
Roberto see me as that much of a threat? Flattering, but troublesome.)
> Any consideration I might have had of attacking Germany
> disappeared when Italy promised to attack France with two fleets
> and an army.
Understandable, but you still have the option of attacking Germany,
now, and it still seems like your best bet, to me. I can use my influence
with France to play up the Italian threat, (he is the leader, after all),
and
under a combined EFR attack, Germany should crumble.
Your Friend,
Nick.
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
> > Goodbye, Ali. I'd like to say it was nice working with you,
> > but since you never did work with me, I really can't.
>
> Is there something I should/need to do to make sure I don't get a
> similar letter in the future?
Don't promise me growth in three years out of four, and renege
each time.
> Taking on Turkey was a difficult decision to make. One that I made
> on my own without expecting any assistance. It was now or never
> though. I fully expect a long and drawn out fight.
I would have preferred that you had taken a more pro-Russian
position with Ali, rather than suggesting that you take Spa and Vie,
while he took Bud and Sev, but my actions will continue to be based
on German moves next Spring, at least.
> I make no claim to further centers and would be interested in working with
> you to split some Turkish centers. I realize that you have your hands
full
> with Germany and it might be best for you just to have Turkey and I fight
> but if you are interested in support for an attack let me know.
The Western Triangle is in a complete state of flux at this point, and
as long as you remain neutral, it should take some time to resolve. I'm
hoping that Fredd will Convoy Lvn-Swe to attack England, which would
free me up to attack Rum and/or Sev. How are your communications
with the Western Powers?
Nick.
Message from Russia to Germany
Fredd,
Might I suggest Lvn-GoB-Swe this Spring? I don't think you can
afford a two-front war at this point, and I'd much rather focus on
regaining Sev than on defending StP, and forcing you out of Lvn.
Nick.
Message from France to England
Ivy:
My Brother has allowed me the opportunity to write to you
during this holiday season. Since we must wait for some
of the major powers, he said that I could chat with you a
bit. I must say that your last message surprised us.
You always seem to have such a grasp on the political and
strategic situation that we are scratching our heads
wondering if we are truly way off base. Let me go find
the exact quote for you.
>I gave it some thought, but finally decided that you
>and Italy were too tight. The last move, in which
>Italy knew that he could have Spain if he
>wanted it, only confirmed my feeling about FI.
Surely you do not think that Italy is that committed to
France. In your previous letter you were telling us how
he simply was waiting for a second fleet before he took
his share of France. In fact, we felt he was tight with
you. He would not orders his units as we desired,
because of his relationship with you. Either one of us
is very wrong, or he is playing us both like Bach plays a
piano.
The reason that your statement really surprised me is
that it does seem obvious to me that he is only helping
me because he wishes to stalemate our situation. As long
as we are at war, and no one is winning, he has the time
to do as he pleases in the south without concern for his
other border. The reason that I was willing to trust him
is because I felt confident that he would not take Spain,
because he did not want you to have the advantage over
me.
The person that I think Italy tight with is Germany. He
continues to decline to help me if it requires harassing
Germany. He has not gone that far with you in that he
has helped me against you. And he has limited my help
against you. But to keep his positive relationship with
Germany, there is no such slights or minor insults.
I wish you to honest tell me how it has been working with
Germany. I had hope this last turn, but aside from one
note, I was unable to engage him in any meaningful
negotiations or conversations.
If Italy manages to take out Turkey, he will soon be in a
position where he will guarantee almost being the largest
member of a draw, or in position to accept the victory if
he can manage it. The west is behind the eight ball, so
to speak. We either resolve our situation now, or else
we will at best be able to manage a losing position in a
draw. Do you truly believe that either of us could
manage to deal with Germany effectively to make it
happen? Surely you must see that France is no long the
big threat that you once worried that we were. You
initial choices have neutralized us and we are at best a
second class power. Unfortunately that has left you in
the same category.
If we worked together there is a chance that we could
take out Germany fast enough to get after Italy before
Turkey is eliminated. Having that thorn in his back, we
might be able to whittle him down enough to prevent his
securing an unbreakable position. It is very easy for
Italy to secure 14 centers that cannot be breached. It
is not hard for Italy to get 2-3 more either in lower
France or Russia. I realize that he is not there yet,
but look at his position. He is lined up against Turkey.
He drove a wedge between Turkey and Russia (by
convincing Turkey to betray Russia near Sevastopol).
Therefore he has an ally against Turkey. If I hold you
back, what will stop him?
Do you see obvious flaws in my logic?
>I think that Italy betrayed Turkey, but I am not
>certain.
That is my guess too, as the above suggests.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
First, we congratulate you on your success. I suspect
that Turkey will not like what he sees upon his return.
Second, my brother and I do thank you greatly for your
continue good faith and help for the French people.
Together we have successful in turning back the English
invaders and France has made a decent recovery. We have
not prospered, but we survive. And for that we thank.
Although we do realize that doing so may have been in
your best interest, we appreciate your choosing to help
France rather than take the easy gains, such as Spain.
Ivy indicated that you could have had it if you wanted to
have it. We thank you for passing it up. I presume that
he is why he moved from the Mid-Atlantic Ocean and that
he told you that he would do so. I do not know whether
he guess that I would be taking it from Spain or whether
you mentioned it to him. No matter, it is an unimportant
detail.
At this time, I feel ready to have you retreat from WES.
The Tyrrhenian Sea or Tunis would be wonderful. If
England and Germany join against me again, I can always
call for your help again.
I have a question for you. If I manage to make a
successful attack on England, with Germany assistance,
will you allow me success or will you choose to stalemate
the situation, thereby limiting a threat to Italy.
Granted a growing France would concern you. But it would
also be a threat to Germany. If England and France
continue to remain even, then there can be no threat
against Germany, because our forces will balance
ourselves. I understand that you do not desire to have a
threatened Germany now, but some day it will be in your
best interest. Can I count of Italy to celebrate any
success that I have?
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Turkey
Ali:
I can help but think that you were betrayed yet again by
Italy. I would like to be able to help you again, but I
need something to break between Germany and England. If
you can help me convince either of them to join me
against the other, I would sooner be able to help you.
If they stick together, then I will be forced to try and
stonewall them, which will delay any help coming your
way.
--Prince Boar
PS: You absolutely must build a fleet, don't you think.
Can you make pease with Russia?
Message from France to all
France wishes the Best to Archduke Ferdinand.
May he enjoy his retirement. We shall be thinking of
him.
Also please give our best to Felicia. We enjoyed our
conversations with her.
--Prince Boar
Message from Russia to France
Xavier, My Friend,
> Movement results for Fall of 1904. (titleist.015)
>
> England: Army Belgium SUPPORT Fleet Picardy. (*cut*)
> England: Fleet North Atlantic Ocean HOLD.
> England: Fleet Picardy SUPPORT Army Bel. (*cut, dislodged*)
> England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Army Belgium.
> England: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean -> Irish Sea.
Surprisingly passive, and given that Ivy was reportedly expecting
WMed-Spa/SC, not exactly pro-French, but attacking Germany remains
England's best hope, I think.
> France: Army Burgundy -> Belgium. (*bounce*)
> France: Army Paris -> Picardy.
> France: Fleet Portugal SUPPORT Fleet Spain/SC -> MAO.
> France: Fleet Brest SUPPORT Army Paris -> Picardy.
> France: Fleet Spain (south coast) -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean.
Why Spa/SC-MAO? You should not trust Roberto that much. Look
at what has happened to Austria and Turkey, (and me, indirectly).
> Germany: Army Kiel -> Holland.
> Germany: Army Silesia -> Munich.
> Germany: Fleet Gulf of Bothnia SUPPORT Army Livonia -> StP.
> Germany: Fleet Baltic Sea -> Denmark.
> Germany: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Silesia -> Munich.
> Germany: Army Livonia -> St Petersburg. (*bounce*)
The largest Power in the West, and he goes on the defensive. If you
ally
with England, you ought to be able to roll over him.
> Italy: Army Trieste -> Serbia.
> Italy: Army Vienna SUPPORT Turkish Army Serbia -> Budapest.
> Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Aegean Sea.
> Italy: Fleet Greece SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea -> Aegean Sea.
> Italy: Fleet WMed SUPPORT French Fleet Spain/SC -> MAO.
> Italy: Army Tyrolia -> Trieste.
Not the stab I was expecting, but effective. It will still take him a
long time
to break through against Turkey without my help, but MAO S Por-Spa/SC
is strongly advised to discourage any two-front thoughts he might have.
Nick,
(who may get back to four Centers in 1905, if the Bolsheviks don't overthrow
the goverment.)
Message from Observer to Observer
Well well. My suspicion is that IT war is now inevitable... and that T will
lose. With two builds vs Turkey's one, the western triangle hopelessly
entangled with zero chance of resolution, and those builds *much* better poised
in a logistical sense, Russia being out of the picture and unfriendly to Turkey
in any case... Turkey's going to lose the Balkans in short order...
From here, I think I'm happy to bet on an Italian win, unless the Turk manages
to pull some tactical rabbits out of his hat, or the western triangle can put
aside its current three-way stalemate in a hurry.
Ook,
Thorf
--
<a href="http://tertius.net.au/~thorfinn">thorfinn@t...</a>
"But I think of myself as the straight-man."
-- Morgan@v...
Message from Russia to Master and Observer
Russian EoY for 1904:
>Russian EoY for 1903:
> Another year without a build. This is getting
>monotonous.
The monotony continues... :^(
>Turkey should have supported me into Bud, as he
>promised to do.
Turkey should have vacated Sev, as he promised to
do. Had he done so, I would have then been inclined
to send an Army or two to harrass Italy, but now I'm
much more likely to accept Italian support into Rum,
and retake Sev by force, if I can convince Germany to
convoy Lvn-Swe.
>Now, I'm likely to collapse under German
>pressure unless England stabs him in S1904M.
Well, the appearance of a stab was enough to
save me, though I still don't understand why England
didn't stab.
>It seems as though Italy has been working against me, at every turn, and he
>has been much better at
>influencing Turkey than I have been. IR seemed like
>such an ideal alliance for this game, that I wonder
>why Italy hasn't been more supportive of my position.
And this also continues, (assuming that England
is correct that Italy proposed a Spa/Vie, Bud/Sev
growth split to Turkey and then stabbed for Serbia).
Things actually seem a bit more hopeful this year
than they did at the end of '03. The situation in
the West is so confused that Germany can't afford to
send another Unit East, and without a third Unit, he
can't take and hold StP, and Italy needs my help if
he wants to eliminate Turkey quickly enough to be
able to break into the Atlantic.
Czar Nicholas II.
Message from England to Turkey
Ali,
A little more reflection makes it obvious to me that Italy is indeed
attacking you. It seems to me that we both need Germany more than ever
now. Certainly, Germany could help reduce the Russia/Italy pressure
against you.
Germany needs to believe that we now have EGT vs IFR. Thus, he has to be
convinced that if he and France jointly attack me, then France will
continute northward and attack Germany in turn with Italian help. In
particular, it stands to reason France will not be attacking Italy after
all Italy has just done for him.
I would think that Germany might be open to GT cooperation against Russia.
Let me know if you have any bright ideas. I will be OK for some time if
Germany stands with me. You are going to have rough going against Italy if
no one can come to your rescue.
The worst scenario would be GF vs E and RI vs T.
At least we will not finish 7th !
Ivy
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
> > That's the first time that you were dishonest with me. Since it would
> > have made little difference in the west had you been honest, I suspect
> > that you had to lie to me in order to cover your play against Turkey.
>
>Exactly. It was an unfortunate side-effect of the negotiations we got
>involved in the other day.
Just for the record. Although including me in the deception was probably
the safest thing to do, I would have been discreet had I known that you
were not going to take Spain. Veteran diplomats can handle lies routinely,
but I think most of us don't forgive tattle-tails. I would have been aware
that our relationship would have been ruined forever if I had known of your
plans and had warned Turkey. Besides, I too was worried about the growing
power of Turkey.
As for my move MAO->IRI, which was the result of our recent conversations,
I say you owe me a little! Let me know when you are ready to repay
me. Remember, from me you will get compound interest on small acts of
kindness.
Most cordially,
Ivy
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
> > Congratulations on one small victory. StP still stands!
>
> Yes, that is rather ironic. I assumed that Fredd would order
>Sil-War, but figured that I should do everything possible to defend
>StP for "political" reasons, and it actually worked.
Germany is much too concerned about getting stabbed. He doesn't trust
enough. True, his edginess probably protects him from stabs occasionally,
but it also hinders his development. It certainly has in this game.
> Well, the agreement called for me to get Sev, Turkey Bud, and
>Italy Vie.
I know that Turkey was actually going to do it, until Italy proposed his
scheme.
>Understandable, but you still have the option of attacking Germany,
>now, and it still seems like your best bet, to me. I can use my influence
>with France to play up the Italian threat, (he is the leader, after all),
>and
>under a combined EFR attack, Germany should crumble.
My key consideration has always been this: what would France do if I
attacked Germany? Most of the time my best guess is that he would take
advantage of the situation and plow into me with everything he had. You
could not save me then.
You must think I am a passive, carebear player. I doubt there are any such
players in this final. Unfortunately, I feel I am caught in a situation in
which I have only one reasonable strategy. I don't like my position any
more than you like yours, but every time I think about changing strategies,
I only see matters getting worse.
Ivy
Message from England to Germany
Fredd,
Good old Italy has done it again. Using his favorite weapon, the lie, he
has turned on Turkey and used me in the process.
There was an agreement in which Turkey was supposed to get Budapest and
Sevastopol, and Italy was supposed to get Vienna and Spain. Yes
Spain! Italy brought me into the deal. I was supposed to vacate MAO
voluntarily so that Italy could walk into Spain. I liked this, because at
this point I would take anything that reduced the French strength.
But Italy crossed everybody. He let France keep Spain. Italy did help
Turkey into Budapest, but only so that he could get Serbia. The Ionian was
supposed to go west against France, but instead went to the
Aegean. Tyrolia was supposed to go to Piedmont, but went to Trieste.
Now I wonder if Italy ever intended to attack France in the first
place. He had probably been leading me on for several seasons. Italy's
style is now so clear. Lie and stab. We all do it on critical occasions,
but he does it annually. Something to remember if we ever get in a
non-gunboat game with him.
France, meanwhile, is joyous. He believes that his position with Italy is
solid now.
Anyway, you can see that I continue to uphold our friendship. I could have
taken Holland but to what end? An ally is worth several centers any
day. It looks to me like we have to consider Turkey as some kind of
partner and Italy, France, and Russia as the enemy. Perhaps you and Turkey
can finish off Russia together.
As you can guess I could fill the library of Congress with notes from
France and Russia begging me to attack you. Old notes, new notes. The
theme rarely changes. They don't care about me, of course, they just see
their only future in a war between us.
It seems to me that the year that we lost due to my Nth move has come and
gone, and we now once again find ourselves at France's doorstep. The
difference is that this time he only has two armies and his weakness is on
land. Penetrating Burgundy will be easy. Which way is best?
If Italy builds an army in Venice, it will got to Tyrolia immediately. I
don't think you want a French army in Burgundy that would work with an
Italian army in Tyrolia.
Watch our for Ukraine->Moscow, because Russia can support StP from
Moscow. Another possibility for you to consider is a shift of armies
Hol->Ruh->Mun->Sil. That would postpone Burgundy for a turn, but give you
a stronger play against Russia.
Lots of choices.
Oh, yes, welcome back. Hope you had a good holiday.
Ivy
Message from Observer to Observer
--- In vgfp_titleist@y..., "Doug Massey" <masseyd@b...> wrote:
> --- In vgfp_titleist@y..., burgess@w... wrote:
> > Oh well, I thought Italy might use Austria as a puppet. I guess
> > that poll is over. And not enough of you voted, I don't think,
> > for Doug to tell us who Austria was, though my money was on
> > Rich Olver.
>
> Part of the reason I knew Austria was soon to die was that I was
> reading IT's collaborative emails, as well as the fact that Austria
> just stopped sending any press. And in this Email Diplomacy, if
you
> stop writing, you die.
Yeah, and those are the kinds of things we can't see. It speaks
very poorly of whoever is playing Austria though that they would
do that in such an important game. He could have stabilized that
position. ASIDE: that "I'm losing this game, let's just get out
quick" attitude is my biggest general pet peeve. Fight 'em all
out, boys!!
>
> > And I forgot that my other poll revealing my guesses on Russia
> > and France's identities goes out to you all, so you all saw it.
> >
> > Anyway, I think we can nail all seven before the end of the game.
> > Russia WILL be out next.
>
> So right now you think its:
>
> England: Allen (99%)
> Russia: Eric (90+%)
> France: Roger (?%)
> Austria: Rich
> Italy: ?
> Turkey: ?
> Germany: ?
>
> (With Ken, Jeff, and Randy remaining)
>
That's just about right. Roger also could be Italy or Turkey,
so I'd put that ? at about 35%.
> Maybe I'll let you guess things "Mastermind" style. :-)
>
> Doug
You could. ;-)
Jim-Bob
Message from Germany to England
Can't believe that I'm not building. I actually never considered the
moves that Russia made. Although I doubt that i would have changed
anything if I had. DEN, HOL, and MUN had to be protected.
I wonder what Italy will build. I would expect an army in VEN. On the
other hand an army there will draw my attention. Italy will have to take
on Turkey big time now. Can he afford to have me battling south?
Probably not.
If I were him I'd build two fleets. Send one of them west to start
taking France apart.
Like I said the problem with the fleet in the north sea is getting it
out of there. Just look where I've had to go to protect my territory.
I'm getting real tired of pussy footing around. You're totally
correct. I can bust in on BUR. That's my intention.
What do you think of these moves?
RUH - BUR supported by MUN
BEL s ruh - bur
nth - lon
hol s bel
To be blunt, we're screwing around while Italy is gaining a big lead.
I'm worried that Italy will take over Turkey while I'm trying to get
through an old and tired Russia.
The bottom line is that I'm still with you, but I won't be if the fleet
remains in the North Sea for even one more turn. To be perfectly
straightforward if that fleet is still there after the next turn, I will
attack you.
Luckily I have a solution to all of this. Instead of moving to London
move to Norway. Then in the fall support me to STP. In the fall I'll
move DEN to SWE.
At the same time I'll be in Ruhr. France will probably have retreated
BUR to GAS. The probable fall move will be to support BEL to PIC, while
I move HOl out and get it into the action again.
Fredd
Message from Germany to Russia
Nick.
First might I congratulate you on a good guess. Funny I hadn't even
considered that you would move that way. Oh well, guess wrong one move,
guess right the next.
> Might I suggest Lvn-GoB-Swe this Spring? I don't think
> you can afford a two-front war at this point, and I'd much
> rather focus on regaining Sev than on defending StP, and
> forcing you out of Lvn.
That fleet in the North Sea certainly is getting old isn't it? Like I
said to Ivy, where would I be if he hadn't moved in there. (I'd probably
have WAR and STP, and he'd have at least one center from France)
Unfortunately there are other factors to consider when talking about
turning on England. The big one right now is Italy. Depending on what
he builds he must be considered a serious threat to take out Turkey.
Therefore I would not want to weaken Turkey by letting you 'bother' him
in the south.
I guess I'll have to continue my assault on STP. (as weak as it's been
so far.)
Fredd
Message from Germany to Turkey
Ali:
How many times are you going to let Italy stab you?
Ivy has suggested that we combine our forces and finish off Russia.
That seems like a good plan to me. However, it's my opinion that you're
still working with Nick. Do you have units to spare on a northern
campaign, and is that the way that you wish to go?
Fredd
Message from Germany to Italy
R.
Do my eyes decieve me, or did you just stab Turkey again? If so, it
seems to be working for you.
Unfortunately you are now the 800 lb gorilla. I wonder if everyone will
turn on you. I, for one, certainly hope that I don't see an army in
TYR again, soon.
Fredd
Message from Germany to France
B:
It's fun to walk away from this game for a weekend, then come back to
find that a move has processed.
This time it looks like:
Italy has stabbed Turkey again. I don't know about you, but I'll never
trust Italy as far as I can throw him.
England is still in the North Sea. (One of these days....)
I'm beginning to fear an Italian victory. He can take BUD next turn.
Turkey is totally out of position, to defend much else well. There is no
threat to Italy from the west (or north). I'm tied up with an inferior
Russia.
Yep Italy looks pretty strong right now. Of course, that will probably
change after the next moves.
I guess that I have one or two reasons to still stick with England.
1) Continuity. Just as I would never trust Italy, I believe that
sticking with your partners is the way to victory.
2) England can support me into STP in the fall if he moves that fleet to
NWY this spring.
On the other hand. A FG alliance could do the following.
1) One of us could take BEL immediately, destroying the English army in
the process.
2) On a stab I could slip into the North Sea myself, and take EDI in the
fall.
3) France is the only possibility of applying pressure to Italy.
Specifically what do you think about these moves?
Spring
England
F NTH - NWY
nothing else matters. as
France
brest - eng
bur - bel supported by pic
por - spain (SC) (Needed to protect MAR as a German army in BUR is a
real possibility)
MAO s bre- eng
Italy
Western Med s MAO
GER
ruh s hol
mun - tyr
den - north sea
Fall
I'm not sure. Certainly I'd like to see pressure put on Italy, but I
don't see how right now. I definitely want to see that build be a
fleet in MAR. We'll bring your other three fleets mostly north.
England will still have three fleets. That is unless I can also take
NWY. But I don't see a real possibility for that. Unless Russia would
cooperate. But I remember a the start of the game what it was like to
get Nick to agree to anything.
Fredd
Message from England to Germany
Fredd,
>Can't believe that I'm not building. I actually never considered the
>moves that Russia made. Although I doubt that i would have changed
>anything if I had. DEN, HOL, and MUN had to be protected.
I never did either. If I were Germany, and if I had noticed the
possibility, I would have risked Munich and entered Silesia->Warsaw in
order to cut the possible support. That guarantees StP while risking
Munich. At worst you come out even, but you probably gain.
>I wonder what Italy will build. I would expect an army in VEN. On the
>other hand an army there will draw my attention. Italy will have to take
>on Turkey big time now. Can he afford to have me battling south?
>Probably not.
No, both Italy and Turkey will be after your friendship. Italy will want
you to be neutral, for he has a good edge over Turkey. Turkey may be
sufficiently in need of help that you may be able to persuade him to help
you against Russia.
>What do you think of these moves?
>RUH - BUR supported by MUN
>BEL s ruh - bur
>nth - lon
>hol s bel
My first reaction is that your own alternative below is superior.
>Luckily I have a solution to all of this. Instead of moving to London
>move to Norway. Then in the fall support me to STP. In the fall I'll
>move DEN to SWE.
This seems pretty good to me.
It would require only one adjustment -- I'm thinking as I type here -- We
would have to bounce in the North Sea with your Denmark and my
Channel. Otherwise you have a stab that gives you two of my centers. I
never had that great an opportunity against you. With this bounce, if you
take Belgium then I should be able to arrange for France to get most of my
other centers.
The downside is that I may lose the Channel to France with this bounce, but
that is far from certain.
>At the same time I'll be in Ruhr.
Burgundy, I think you mean.
>France will probably have retreated
>BUR to GAS. The probable fall move will be to support BEL to PIC, while
>I move HOl out and get it into the action again.
OK, let's both look at all of this a little more carefully. In the
meantime it will be interesting to hear what Turkey and Italy say.
One day, I swear, I will be handing over Norway to you as suggested long,
long, ago. Then we break out the champaign.
Ivy
Message from Italy to Germany
> Do my eyes decieve me, or did you just stab Turkey again?
>
Let's just say, he won't be pleased with my moves. But what he suggested I
move wasn't very good for Italy's future.
> If so, it seems to be working for you.
That's yet to be determined. I actually stabbed Turkey with anyone's
knowledge and not expecting any assistance. It was a very difficult choice
to make especially since I knew he would be getting a build out of the deal
as well.
> Unfortunately you are now the 800 lb gorilla. I wonder if everyone will
> turn on you.
Everyone? Doubtful. Somebody other Turkey? Certainly possible.
I was somewhat banking on your earlier message about GF vs E. I would move
in at the appropriate time to keep France busy while you mopped up England.
My war with Turkey will take quite a bit of effort and time. That's the
downside. The upside is, I don't have to completely eliminate him, just
keep him tucked away in his corner. I should have several units at my
disposal free to do various French spy maneuvers.
> I, for one, certainly hope that I don't see an army in TYR again, soon.
I currently have an army build ordered but it will not by moving to Tyrolia.
It will most likely take residence in Trieste as I evict Turkey from
Idalia's homeland.
Peace with Germany is an absolute requirement for my success and I will do
anything to maintain that peace.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
>
> First, we congratulate you on your success. I suspect
> that Turkey will not like what he sees upon his return.
>
I suspect not.
> Although we do realize that doing so may have been in
> your best interest, we appreciate your choosing to help
> France rather than take the easy gains, such as Spain.
> Ivy indicated that you could have had it if you wanted to
> have it.
I had mentioned to Ivy that I asked you to take the MAO from Spain but I
wasn't positive from where you were moving. He felt resigned to losing the
MAO and mentioned he would be retreating to the IRI and that, if France was
indeed moving Spain, that I would be able to move in and take it. Frankly,
I was insulted by his short-sided approach as clearly Spain could not be
held.
> At this time, I feel ready to have you retreat from WES.
As we discussed. I'm happy to return home. Let me know if you require my
fleet's assistance again.
> Can I count of Italy to celebrate any success that I have?
Italy rejoices over the prospect of French success. We wish you the best
and please do not hesitate to seek our assistance either diplomatically or
militarally.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> I would have preferred that you had taken a more pro-Russian
> position with Ali, rather than suggesting that you take Spa and Vie,
> while he took Bud and Sev, but my actions will continue to be based
> on German moves next Spring, at least.
>
What exactly did Mr. Wingo tell you?
Your words above imply that it was my suggestion that I take Spa and Vie.
Quite the contrary. I was all set to order Tri s Ser-Bud and hold my
position. Turkey, I, and you would all gain one. I was content and
pleased. Then, all of a sudden on deadline day, I get bombarded by ET with
a 'new plan'. They want me to take Spain - mind you I've never seen a more
short-sided move in my life - and Turkey would remain in SEV. They tried to
pull off the old you'll get two builds trick on me.
Should I have told you about the 'new plan'? Perhaps, but I'm not sure what
you would have done differently. Besides, I hate getting mail saying
so-and-so is going to stab you so I generally don't send that type of mail
myself.
> I'm hoping that Fredd will Convoy Lvn-Swe to attack England,
> which would free me up to attack Rum and/or Sev.
If you've got some guts,
gob-swe; lvn-stp; stp-fin in the spring followed by
fin-stp; swe s stp-nor in the fall would be an interesting combination.
> How are your communications with the Western Powers?
As far as I'm aware, cordial. France is happy that I kept my word and
helped him fend off England. Germany is happy that twice now I entered and
left Tyrolia without making a play for Munich. England concerns me as I
haven't really done him too many favors yet.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
I did realize the potential for Italy taking Spain if I
attacked MAO from that location. But by doing so I
guaranteed that England could not take it. If I attacked
from Portugal, Italy could have helped England take
Spain. I was unwilling to take that chance. I also was
willing to bet that Italy would prefer to not take on me
while he had bigger concerns in the East.
Your move to Livonia was brilliant by the way. I never
really studied the situation, but I certainly did not see
it during my quick glances. It is good that Germany did
not trust Italy or I enough to break your support from
Warsaw.
I agree that England's moves were not pro-French. They
were as anti-French as he could be. He was trying to
get Italy to take Spain. There was nothing else he could
accomplish. If he had only held in MAO, we could have
discussed his disbanding his retreating fleet. Now he
remains in my face.
Have you considered putting any effort into turning
Germany on England. I would take which ever one I could
arrange. But England seems determined to attack me,
therefore if we worked together on Germany, we might
have some luck.
How is your relationship with Turkey. Was his remaining
in Sevastopol a betrayal of you? You almost need to
side with him against Italy or else Italy will be
unstoppable and will devour you after Turkey falls.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Germany
Fredd:
First it was PB, now just B. Well as long as you write
you can shorten my name to whatever your like. Skip it
altogether if you want.
Yes, Italy did betray Turkey again. Hence, I expect
peace between him and myself. I will not threaten him
until
my situation with England is resolved. This can be best
accomplished by my working with you to eliminate him,
but I can also settle for an alliance with him where his
forces shift to Scandinavia and North Germany.
>I believe that sticking with your partners is the way
>to victory.
I thought that you believe that there would be many
betrayals, especially between EFG in this game. I was
the one looking for a long term partner, remember. :-)
I still am.
<3) France is the only possibility of applying pressure
to Italy.
This is the only thing that I have going for me.
I also told Ivy that if France is not allowed to put
pressure on Italy soon, he will get to the point where he
will be large enough to almost guarantee himself to be
the largest member of any draw, hence the winner. I
believe that it will be too difficult for the two of you
to eliminate me in time. Therefore I suggest that one of
you side with me to eliminate the other, allow me to get
to Italy before Turkey is effectively eliminated and
cannot claw at his back if Italy is forced to turn and
fight.
I am certainly willing to attack Belgium. I would
appreciate support from Holland as well. I think that
this would not be an unreasonable request. I would
probably use my fleets to mount some sort of attack on
England and at the same time, defend my rear territory.
With the appropriate moves, you could easily take Norway
in the fall. GoB -> Swe, Den -> Ska (or Nth), Mun
-> Kie.
I may also be able to help influence Russia if we are
working together. He and I have been kindred spirits
lately, so we have gotten along well.
It is too bad that you could not find yourself trusting
me last turn. I could have taken Belgium and you could
have taken St. Petes (Sil -> War). You instead choose to
partially trust England and leave Holland at risk.
When will you let me know if you are deciding to side
with France?
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
Thanks for your note and assurances. I hope to someday
get some success for you to cheer. If you can convince
Germany to side with me, I would appreciate that. I
would at least like to know what he says, if there is
anything that you can share with me.
So how does it feel to be the one that everyone is
nervous about :-) People are sure starting to be
concerned about Italy. Congratulations, if that is
something to be happy about :-) At least it means that
you are doing well.
--Prince Boar
Message from Italy to Turkey
I suppose an explanation is in order.
I changed my orders at the last moment prior to the deadline after a full
hour of analyzing the consequences of taking Spain. In my mind, it would
not have been the correct move. I realize that you are still very powerful
and it will be extremely difficult to break thru your defenses. You have
many diplomatic options available to you as I made the moves on my own
accord without promises from any other power. I do not expect or anticipate
any help.
I know you'll probably spend the rest of the game attempting to wreck havoc
on the Italian empire. I don't blame you and would do the same if in your
shoes.
Roberto
Message from Germany to England
Ivy:
> It would require only one adjustment -- I'm thinking as I
> type here -- We would have to bounce in the North Sea with
> your Denmark and my Channel. Otherwise you have a stab that
> gives you two of my centers. I never had that great an
> opportunity against you. With this bounce, if you
> take Belgium then I should be able to arrange for France to
> get most of my other centers.
>
> The downside is that I may lose the Channel to France with
> this bounce, but that is far from certain.
Well I did see the possibility of the move to NTH. Actually considered
it also. Mainly because I just wanted to say "Now you know why your
move to the North Sea caused such a reaction from me"
I think that I'd rather not have you go to Norway if it's going to mean
that your fleets will retreat further. That's not going to get us
anything. Unfortunately the same problem occurs if you move NTH
anywhere, and I know about it.
We might be reaching an impass here. I want to get things moving. I
can't while you're in the North Sea. But if you move out you leave me a
stab opportunity. (and how many times have I said how difficult it
would be to get back out of NTH?)
How about moving to Yorkshire? You can still protect EDI that way. Or
better yet the Norwegian Sea? Then you can protect EDI and NWY.
Depending on how the guesswork goes.
Message from Germany to Italy
> Peace with Germany is an absolute requirement for my
> success and I will do anything to maintain that peace.
Would that include helping England against France? Or me against
France?
Fredd
Message from Germany to France
Prince Boar:
> Yes, Italy did betray Turkey again. Hence, I expect
> peace between him and myself. I will not threaten him
> until my situation with England is resolved.
Certainly Italy wants peace with both of us. He'll need everything that
he's got to take on Turkey.
> When will you let me know if you are deciding to side
> with France?
Tough one. England has already spotted the stab opportunity I'd have if
he moved out of the North Sea. Therefore that stab opportunity has
pretty much evaporated. Which leaves you with picking up Belgium, and
me with.... Certainly your moves of attacking Norway instead of STP
are feasible. The Pandora's Box that that opens is Russia. What's he
going to do? I doubt if the answer is to just sit around.
I'm not ready to commit to you yet. Maybe we can work something out
before the next moves. Right now what we have on the table goes
something like this.
You get Belgium.
I switch from attacking STP to attacking Norway.
You're not really willing to make any moves against Italy. (Even with a
build that you get from Belgium)
I have a stab opportunity, but there's not much to it.
Would you switch alliances for the above?
Fredd
Message from Germany to Russia
Nick:
Don't reject this immediately. It's better to think it over.
I can do the following.
I can leave Warsaw and Moscow alone in exchange for you handing STP over
to me.
Sounds outlandish doesn't it. Why give up a center? Well what good is
it doing you? Your fleet is bottled up. Disbanding it loses you
basically nothing. What it gains is the ability to move your other two
units south. As it is you have to use one of those units to support
STP.
Now would be the time to do this. I would move my army onto STP. (away
from WAR)
Certainly both Italy and Turkey are bidding for your favor. One of
those two can get you your next build.
I really think that this could be a win win. Right now you're tied up.
You're just waiting for the victor of I vs T to take you out when
they're ready. This deal frees up your two units. It's a win for me as
I can concentrate in the west. It also gives me a build. Which I won't
use against you.
Think it over.
BTW a convoy to Finland is superior to a convoy to Sweden.
Fredd
Message from France to Germany
Fredd:
>Right now what we have on the table goes
>something like this.
>You get Belgium.
>I switch from attacking STP to attacking Norway.
>You're not really willing to make any moves against
>Italy. (Even with a
>build that you get from Belgium)
>I have a stab opportunity, but there's not much to it.
>Would you switch alliances for the above?
My answer to you is Yes, if you are thinking long term
rather than short term. In the long term, I am better
position to be of help against Italy, and much sooner
than England is. (My home centers are also in a less
dangerous position than his.)
It will take a longer time to eliminate me than it will
him. We can take England down to 3 centers this year.
He will fall fast. (Medium term advantage)
The short term is not all that bad as well. England is
not willing to help you get St. Petes, therefore you are
likely not to get it. You are likely to get Norway. The
only way for England to stop it is for him to be in
Norway and the North Sea. If he does that shift, I will
be in the Channel and not him. Hence, I will break his
support for Norway.
I will put my new force in the Mediterranean. It may not
be able to launch an attack on Italy, but it will at
least get his attention and perhaps slow down his
progress on Turkey. You can also shift your army in
Livonia to Prussia and then Silesia to start putting a
little pressure on Italy as well.
If I am being attack by you and England, then I will not
be putting any units in the Mediterranean to make Italy
nervous. I will sell out in the North. In fact, Italy
may end up growing even larger as he is likely to come
over and take his share. These may get him to 16
centers, or perhaps the victory depending on how things
eventually go in Russia.
Finally, I can keep Russia out of your back door. He
will be simply happy to have relieve from your attack;
and he will focus on getting the rest of his homeland
back. This will give us time to take out England and
give you the forces you need to then Finish off Russia
without all the concerns at your back.
I think that your long term choice is obvious - France!
Completely unbiasedly yours, ;-)
--Prince Boar
Message from Russia to Turkey
Ali,
I'm curious, who first proposed that you remain
in Sev? I would appreciate an honest answer. While
your repeated failure to support/allow me to gain
Centers will make it difficult for me to trust you
enough to work closely with you, this doesn't rule
out you moving toward Italy, and allowing me to
retake Sev as you recapture Serbia. Even something
as small as that could be the foundation for future
cooperation. I hope you will consider that possibility,
and honestly answer my question.
Sincerely,
Czar Nicholas II.
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
>Germany is much too concerned about getting stabbed. it hinders his
>development.
Yes, I pointed out the same thing to France.
>what would France do if I attacked Germany? my best guess is that he would
>plow into me with everything he had. You could not save me then.
I don't see France reacting that way at all,
especially given the threat of an 8-Center Italy
lurking in the Western Med. France is likely to
ally with Germany if Germany attacks you, but if
you attack Germany, your honesty, (assuming you've
been honest with France), and you greater willingness
to communicate, should win him over, especially if
we both play up the Italian threat to Prince Boar.
>You must think I am a passive, carebear player.
No, true care-bear's don't get to this level.
>I feel I am caught in a situation in which I have only one reasonable
>strategy. I don't like my position anymore than you like yours, but every
>time I think about changing strategies, I only see matters getting worse.
Can matters get better, following your current
strategy? As I see it, you have to pull back from
France, or from Germany, and hope to form an alliance
with that Power. Maintaining a forward defense
against both just means they will ally against you,
and eventually wear you down. I don't much like my
position, but imagine how much worse it would be had
I stuck with my original strategy, and not Convoyed
A Fin-Lvn in S1902M. There are times to stay the
course, but there comes a point where not changing
course, dooms you to failure as surely as constant
vacillation does. You are about to pass that point,
I fear.
Your Friend,
Nick.
Message from Germany to England
Ivy:
I was thinking about this game last night after I turned off the
computer. What a lousy partnership we have. I have six units, you have
five. We still haven't made a dent in France, and we're actually going
in the other direction.
The reality is that we should have all the other powers banding
together to stop us because we're so damm tough. But what's happening
is that we're impotent while the stab king is gaining a lead.
Well I for one am tired of this. I'm willing to get my ass in gear.
My question is; are you?
I would like to move my fleet in DEN into the Baltic, to counter any
Russia move from Warsaw. (This is how pathetic this has become, I'm
worried about Russia when he should be on the verge of elimination from
me)
I also will blast BUR out of the way. My goals in France remain the
same. However, time has run out and if I have to take a French center
to knock him down, so that you can push in then so be it.
What I really have to do (and quick) is engage Italy. Turkey will not
survive. Although I expect a long battle. But without help I don't see
Turkey holding out the Italian.
What are you willing to commit to?
Fredd
Message from Germany to France
Prince Boar
Yes I think that you're a little biased. I'll send a more complete
response tonight, after Russia gets back to me.
I was hoping that you'd have something more substantial to offer, than
reasoning.
Freddd
Message from Germany to Turkey
Ali:
It's my belief that Italy can run over you (eventually) unless you get
some help.
This is not part of my plan for the German victory.
Unfortunately, I can't send any units south this turn.
There is however another way to add two units to your arsenal
immediately. They are sitting in WAR and UKR.
I've made an offer to Russia that I'll leave WAR and MOS alone if
he'll
give up STP. (Which doesn't matter really as his fleet there can't do
anything anyway)
You might want to offer him some builds if he'll help you out.
I can send a unit to TYR in the fall. I'm sure that it'll be too late
then.
Fredd
Message from Italy to Germany
> > Peace with Germany is an absolute requirement for my
> > success and I will do anything to maintain that peace.
>
> Would that include helping England against France? Or me against
> France?
>
Either. Both. Your choice.
Roberto
Message from France to Germany
Fredd:
>I was hoping that you'd have something more substantial
>to offer, than reasoning.
What is it that you want me to offer?
I am agreeing to take Belgium from Burgundy, so you can
clear out Munich and feel safe.
I am agreeing to attack the Channel, even if that risks
MAO.
I am agreeing to put breaking Nth Sea support for Norway
over any of my needs for a possible French fleet in the
Channel.
I am agreeing to build a fleet in Marseilles, per your
request.
I have suggest to Russia that we should consider working
with you. I can put in more effort but hesitated to
reveal to him our discussions.
I am very willing to discuss any long term distribution
of SC. I have in the past agreed to transferring Belgium
to you, I am still willing to do so.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to England
Wingo:
I am back on duty. My brother was disappointed that he
did not have the opportunity to converse with you. C'est
la vie, I told him. Perhaps you were out of town, or
just enjoying the holiday.
Are we going to continue to waste each other's chances in
this game? Will we do so without even discussing the
options?
Le DAUPHIN
Message from England to France
Dauphin,
Very sorry. Work has been horribly time-consuming lately. Since we are
only in the build phase, I felt I had to set aside Diplomacy briefly. I
hope to get a proper letter to you ASAP.
Ivy
>Wingo:
>
>I am back on duty. My brother was disappointed that he
>did not have the opportunity to converse with you. C'est
>la vie, I told him. Perhaps you were out of town, or
>just enjoying the holiday.
>
>Are we going to continue to waste each other's chances in
>this game? Will we do so without even discussing the
>options?
>
>Le DAUPHIN
Message from Turkey to Russia
Nick,
I realize you have no reason to believe a word I say, but here is the
absolute truth. Throughout last week, I pushed hard to get me into Bud and
return Sev to you. Italy gave it lip service, to both of us, but he
*never*
said "I have entered vie s ser-bud" or any such, despite my pressing him
for
a concrete answer. He said the matter would be decided on Thursday, and of
course on Thursday the judge was down.
Throughout the diplomacy phase, I had extensive discussions with Ivy about
my reasons for wanting to keep you alive, my argument being that a viable
Russia would be good for him against Germany. I specifically said that I
didn't want to burn any bridges with you this year, and urged him to
contact
you to get the ball rolling on ER cooperation. I made detailed suggestions
of how he could turn to attack Germany, either by cooperating with Italy or
with France, but in any case with Russia harrying German flanks.
Friday morning, with the deadline passed, there was a flurry of diplomacy
between me, Roberto and Ivy, including joint press from E to IT and from I
to ET. The jist of it was that EI would at last cooperate agaisnt France.
The plan was for Ivy to withdraw from MAO (hence MAO-IRI), thereby allowing
WMS-Spa/sc. I was included in the discussion because Roberto claimed he'd
need my permission since that would mean he might be building 3. Of
course,
I found the idea that Italy would build 3 units alarming, since one of the
main tenents of our relationship has been that we would grow at the same
rate, my preference being one unit a year (which was another reason I was
pushing for Austria to be split evenly among us).
Anyway, at the last I was able to get Roberto to agree to support me to
Bud,
though I remained very leery of it all. I stayed in Sev so that if Roberto
stabbed me (which it turns out he did) I would at least have one build to
match his potential 3. Very short-sighted, but that's how you tend to be
when you're second-guessing everything at the last minute (in this case,
with an expired deadline). Then just when Roberto got his order in, the
deadline was extended. After that, I did not receive any further
discussion
of moves from anyone, and I left on vacation that afternoon without seeing
the result.
So the bottom line is that I argued strongly in favor of splitting Austria
between ITR, to both Italy and England. I argued for stability and
flexibility, and until Friday morning, meaning, until after the deadline,
my
order was Bla S Sev-Rum. If nobody had been late, that would have been my
order for the turn. But it seems stability and flexibility weren't what
Roberto had in mind. Once again, he played me like a violin, and it seems
Ivy as well.
As for who actually suggested I stay in Sev first, I can't honestly
remember. I will say that at one point on Friday, Roberto suggested that I
not only stay in Sev, but attack Moscow as well, despite the fact that I
would have exposed Smy to attack from Austria (Con/Gre were to bounce in
Bul). And indeed, it's curious that Austria did in fact attack Smyrna. I
wonder if Austria's been receiving any more grey press.
Roberto must be feeling pretty confident if the feels he can make fools of
both England and Turkey in the same move. If the game now turns into an
IFG
end game, then he may well turn out to be right, and as it stands my
money's
on Italy to win the game. But the face of this game seems to change every
year, so he may not get the last laugh.
As for the coming turn, I pretty much plan to fall back and regroup for
some
kind of defense. I figure I'll lose Bud to Italy, and Sev to you.
Hopefully not more than that. So it will be pretty much up to you whether
Turkey lives or not. If you pressure me from Sev, then I'll crumble fast.
If you choose to let me live, then RT would clearly have the upper hand,
since Germany has left a power vacuum in the center. If IFG emerges, and
you side with Italy, then you'll probably survive me in the game; but
probably not by much.
If you have *any* suggestions as to my coming build and Spring moves, I
would welcome them. A fleet build seems both obvious and futile, but
nevertheless that's what I've ordered. In the spring, I cannot decide if
it
would be better to try and force F Bul into Con, or move it back to Bla to
defend Con/Bul. Any desires Russia has in the matter would be most
welcome.
Ali
Message from England to Germany
Fredd,
My work load is suddenly picked up considerably, so my responses may not be
as timely as before. Fortunately, we have a lot of time. Let me respond
to your two e-mails one at a time.
>I think that I'd rather not have you go to Norway if it's going to mean
>that your fleets will retreat further.
I had never considered Norway myself; I was just responding to your idea.
>Mainly because I just wanted to say "Now you know why your
>move to the North Sea caused such a reaction from me"
One difference though. When you were worried about a stab from me, you had
6 units to my 5, and I would have only been able to pick up one of your
centers with the stab. In the current situation, when it is still 6 to 5
in your favor, if you entered the North Sea you would get two of my
centers, making it 8 to 3. That's not just a stab; that is death.
Fortunately, you are still coming up with reasonable alternatives.
>How about moving to Yorkshire? You can still protect EDI that way. Or
>better yet the Norwegian Sea?
The Norwegian Sea works for me. Anything that does not expose me to an
immediate loss of two centers. We would still need the bounce in the North
Sea this turn, so that I would only risk Belgium. But with your army in
Burgundy, we would be once again well under way against France, and our
mutual trust would take a big leap.
*********************
From your second note:
>What are you willing to commit to?
That's a fair question. Without thinking too hard about tactics for a
moment, let's look the general strategic situation. Several cases:
A. I could risk the loss of two centers. For example, by simply vacating
the North Sea.
B. I could risk the loss of one center. For example, I could risk Ruhr by
vacating the North Sea while we bounce there.
C. We both could risk a center. For example, I could stay in Nth for
exactly one more turn, while you move Den->Bal. Ruhr is at risk and so is
either Holland or Denmark, but not both.
There must be other permutations, but you get the idea. We have lived a
long time with one center under risk, whether it be Holland or Belgium or
both. Stabs are rarely made for one center.
Anyway, here is my answer to your question. I will commit to any set of
moves that does not risk the loss of two centers. I have not had the time
to examine the tactics in detail, but something should prove to be mutually
satisfying.
Most cordially,
Ivy
All of this is highly temporary. Once we are inside France againthis fall
our trust will increase.
Message from Russia to Turkey
Ali,
As I see it, you have to focus on defending against
Italy, so I don't see you as a threat. Germany, in
spite of his withdrawl, remains a threat, especially
since he's likely to ally with France against England,
and send an Army east again. I think, therefore, that
I have to move to Ukr-Mos, and "encourage" GA Lvn to
head west. This is likely to make it impossible for
me to take Sev this year, even if you move Sev-Rum this
Spring. F Smy seems like a necessary build for you at
this point, especially since you're almost certain to
see F Nap-Ion this Spring.
Nick.
Message from Master to all
Okay, I think my email is back. I got nothing in or out of
masseyd@btv.ibm.com for four or five days, then I got a flood
of about 300 mails in the last hour (in reverse chronological
order, for some reason).
Anyway, everything seems to be back to normal on my end.
I think we have everyone back from Labor Day vacation in the
U.S. and are ready to continue with the F1904B deadline
tonight.
Doug
Message from France to Turkey
Ali:
I trust that your trip was pleasant, even if the movement
results were not.
I expect that you are building a fleet. If you need to
bounce any ideas or talk through some issues, let me
know.
I will try to influence Germany and Russia where I can.
Italy seems to have made up us mind. I run a delicate
balance. I do not want him to focus all his attention on
me. But I also do not want him to crush you. I hope
that you can outplay him in the tactical and alliance
fields.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to England
Wingo:
Surely France can wait. Take care of your other
important business.
Le DAUPHIN
Message from Turkey to Germany
Fredd,
Good to hear from you. Indeed, it seems I'll need to make amends with
Russia, since IR cooperation right now would kill me quickly. That will
mean giving him Sev. If that appeases him, and you don't attack him, then
he and I could probably gain the upper hand against Italy, though it would
take a while and Russia would surely prosper from it. Or, Russia might
attack me anyway, in which case he'll still grow, and Italy will become fat
from my carcass.
Italy has not a single threat on the board, and is already the largest
power. I had hoped I could at least keep up, but it was not to be, and I'll
probably end the year at 4 or 5 units. Unless *somebody* else attacks him,
he'll have gained most of the south by the time the western triangle is
resolved. If you can get into Tyr, that would be great, but Italy's already
shown a strong desire to control the center of the board, and I fully expect
A Ven, so it may take more than that to turn the tide. [Don't get me wrong:
any help at all would, obviously, be more than welcome.]
The current board position looks like the makings of an IFG, which would
essentially mean FG vs. E, IR vs. T. That's going to mean you'll need to
build fleets to (a) attack England, and (b) defend against all the French
fleets that will be on your border once England is gone. France may turn
against Italy, but so far they seem rather joined at the hip, do they not?
That in turn means you may be army-weak in a period where Russia may have
grown from gains against Turkey. Whatever you decide, I strongly urge you
to seriously consider these ramifications.
In any case, the one thing I really want from you is a little more press.
;^) I certainly understand your desire to keep your cards close to the
vest, and I definitely urge you to do exactly that in your dealings with
Italy. He has already shown a strong tendency to stab based on his
foreknowledge of his ally's moves; he's done that 3 times already in the
game. So by all means, I urge you not to let Roberto in on your moves any
more than is absolutely necessary. But that said, I don't think it's unfair
to ask for some notion of what German goals and intentions are, and I have
always wished for greater communication between us.
Regards,
Ali
Message from Turkey to England
Ivy,
Yes, you can bet that was a genuine Italian attack. Gre/Bla were supposed
to bounce in Bul, and Roberto specifically told me at the end of that
flurry
of negotiations, "I have ordered Vie S Tri, Tri S Ser-Bud." So, that was
certainly not the result I had hoped for. Roberto must be feeling pretty
damned confident if he feels he can screw over England and Turkey in the
same turn. If the game turns into IFG, he may be right.
Germany has written me twice since the deadline, with conflicting
suggestions. First he proposed GT efforts against Russia. Then he said he
might cut a deal with Russia, that he would leave Mos/War alone if Russia
gave up StP, and urged me to instead try and get Russia on my side. Either
way, I will be strongly urging Germany to stick with England. It won't be
hard to make the argument that if he joins France now, he'll have French
fleets all over him afterwards, since I do believe this to be the case.
Anyway, I don't think I have much choice other than to try and make amends
with Russia at this point, especially if Germany doesn't commit any centers
to the south. I have written Russia with a description of the events of
last turn. I will also copy it in joint press to you and him, asking for
your confirmation. I feel I've given an honest and accurate description;
if
you disagee with any of it, then please feel free to say so. But to those
elements that you know to be true, I hope you will confirm to Russia. It's
about the only chance I have of keeping Russia from being an Italian
janissary.
In any case, if Russia sides with Italy then I won't last long. I'm sure
to
lose Bud to Italy at the least, and I'll have to withdraw from Sev if I'm
going to have any chance of mending fences with Russia. Given that Italy
has literally no threats on the board, IR cooperation would mean a quick
death for Turkey.
As always, any thoughts you might have would be most welcome.
Ali
Message from Turkey to England and Russia
Gentlemen,
Below is an excerpt of my recent press to Russia, describing the events of
the last turn. Ivy, I ask you to answer honestly: do you agree that my
description is accurate, at least in terms of those elements of which you
had direct knowledge?
Ali
----- Original Message -----
> Nick,
>
> I realize you have no reason to believe a word I say, but here is the
> absolute truth. Throughout last week, I pushed hard to get me into Bud
and
> return Sev to you. Italy gave it lip service, to both of us, but he
*never*
> said "I have entered vie s ser-bud" or any such, despite my pressing him
for
> a concrete answer. He said the matter would be decided on Thursday, and
of
> course on Thursday the judge was down.
>
> Throughout the diplomacy phase, I had extensive discussions with Ivy
about
> my reasons for wanting to keep you alive, my argument being that a viable
> Russia would be good for him against Germany. I specifically said that I
> didn't want to burn any bridges with you this year, and urged him to
contact
> you to get the ball rolling on ER cooperation. I made detailed
suggestions
> of how he could turn to attack Germany, either by cooperating with Italy
or
> with France, but in any case with Russia harrying German flanks.
>
> Friday morning, with the deadline passed, there was a flurry of diplomacy
> between me, Roberto and Ivy, including joint press from E to IT and from
I
> to ET. The jist of it was that EI would at last cooperate agaisnt
France.
> The plan was for Ivy to withdraw from MAO (hence MAO-IRI), thereby
allowing
> WMS-Spa/sc. I was included in the discussion because Roberto claimed
he'd
> need my permission since that would mean he might be building 3. Of
course,
> I found the idea that Italy would build 3 units alarming, since one of
the
> main tenents of our relationship has been that we would grow at the same
> rate, my preference being one unit a year (which was another reason I was
> pushing for Austria to be split evenly among us).
>
> Anyway, at the last I was able to get Roberto to agree to support me to
Bud,
> though I remained very leery of it all. I stayed in Sev so that if
Roberto
> stabbed me (which it turns out he did) I would at least have one build to
> match his potential 3. Very short-sighted, but that's how you tend to be
> when you're second-guessing everything at the last minute (in this case,
> with an expired deadline). Then just when Roberto got his order in, the
> deadline was extended. After that, I did not receive any further
discussion
> of moves from anyone, and I left on vacation that afternoon without
seeing
> the result.
>
> So the bottom line is that I argued strongly in favor of splitting
Austria
> between ITR, to both Italy and England. I argued for stability and
> flexibility, and until Friday morning, meaning, until after the deadline,
my
> order was Bla S Sev-Rum. If nobody had been late, that would have been
my
> order for the turn. But it seems stability and flexibility weren't what
> Roberto had in mind. Once again, he played me like a violin, and it
seems
> Ivy as well.
Message from Turkey to Russia
Nick,
Obviously, if you didn't take Sev this year it would be a godsend. It
probably makes sense for me to withdraw from it anyway, to shore up my
defenses in Turkey.
How would this set of moves work for you: F Smy-Aeg, Bul-Bla, Con S Rum-Bul,
Sev S Bud-Rum, Arm-Ank, thereby allowing Sev-Arm in the fall. I don't think
I can move Sev through Rum, and Arm provides stronger defense at home.
Again, if you have any wishes, desires, suggestions, or whatever, please
don't hesitate to write.
Ali
Message from Turkey to Russia
Nick,
> How would this set of moves work for you: F Smy-Aeg, Bul-Bla, Con S
Rum-Bul,
> Sev S Bud-Rum, Arm-Ank, thereby allowing Sev-Arm in the fall. I don't
think
> I can move Sev through Rum, and Arm provides stronger defense at home.
To clarify: I'm proposing moving out of Sev in the fall not as a delaying
action, but in order to support Bud-Rum. If this is not acceptable to you,
then say the word and I'll move out in spring.
Or, if you have any other moves you would prefer, don't hesitate.
Ali
Message from Turkey to Master
Turkey's EOY for 1904
Well, that was an ugly surprise, though I suppose I should have seen it
coming. Actually I did see it coming, but I thought it was further off.
During the last-minute presses on Friday morning, it dawned on me that
"Roberto" really uses foreknowledge of his allies' moves to make effective
stabs. Nothing new, certainly, but he's done it every year since 1902! So
I figured that would be how he stabbed me, though I really did think he
would stick it to France this time around.
The year started well enough, with the destruction of the Austrian army and
Italy's strong move to the center. When it came to discussing the ultimate
disposition of Austrian units, though, it became pretty clear that neither
of us really wanted the other to have Budapest. I wanted him attacking
France, and he wanted me attacking Russia, for much the same reasons.
The result I was most comfortable with was an equal division of Austrian
centers between ITR. I knew in my gut that I didn't want to add insult to
injury where Russia was concerned, and that I could make some real brownie
points by giving him Sev. I tried to get support for the idea from both
Italy and England, on the premise that my attacking Russia would ultimately
benefit Germany. Roberto claims he would have gone along with it, but my
guess is that he was planning to stab me this turn no matter what I did. In
any case, neither Italy nor England showed any enthusiasm for keeping Russia
alive.
In truth, I did consider stabbing Russia by staying in Sev, and even
attacking into Mos, but I was never comfortable with those options.
Attacking Mos meant leaving Smy vacant, which would have been a hell of a
gamble (and, in the end, would have put Austria in Smy). Simply remaining
in Sev was undesirable, especially if it meant Italy building two. So I
entered orders to vacate Sev as promised, relying on Italian support for
Bud.
Italy and I were supposed to work out the final arrangements on Thursday,
but the judge was down. Friday morning, I wrote frantically to determine
Italian intentions. That was when the press started flying with England and
Italy. The plan developed that England would vacate MAO, thereby allowing
Italy to take Spain. Of course, I was aghast at the notion that Italy would
gain Spa, Vie, Bud, while my only option for growth was to stay in Sev.
But Italy quickly agreed to my proposal that he take Spa, Vie while I took
Bud, Sev. He did an awesome job of telling me just what I wanted to hear,
leading me by the nose into doing exactly what he wanted me to. I bought it
hook, line and sinker, and committed the worst sin for Turkey: I got greedy.
"Be patient as Turkey," I read long ago, and it's a credo that's served me
well. Too bad I forgot it in the frenzy on Friday morning.
Of course, there is at least an outside chance that had the deadline not
been extended, then Italy might have actually stabbed France and not
attacked me. The whole issue of the judge being up and down was
unfortunate, but after all it's always been a factor in judge play. As is
the frantic last-minute negotiating after a deadline. I hope that when the
game is over, I'll find an anwer to that question.
Looking ahead, I really don't have many options. I need to get into turtle
mode, and try to stay alive as long as possible. If Russia doesn't attack
me, I may hold out for a while. If he attacks Italy, we would come out on
top, but I'm not expecting it. If he joins Italy against me, I'll probably
be the first to join Austria in exile. At this point it looks like an IFG
end game; but the face of this game has changed so many times already,
nothing is certain. Perhaps if I hold out long enough, some opportunity
will arise.
Message from Russia to Turkey
>Message from Turkey to Russia in 'titleist':
>I'm proposing moving out of Sev in the fall not as a delaying action, but
>in order to support Bud-Rum. If this is not acceptable to you, then say
>the word and I'll move out in spring.
At this point, I see no reason to tell you how
to move. My short-term goal is to get GA Lvn out of
Russia without losing StP. As I see it, you need to
defend against, or counter-attack, Italy, so moving
out of Sev to the south or west seems a reasonable
course to take. If you do that, I'll consider
working with you to stop Italy, if circumstances
permit.
Without a great deal of study, I would say that
Sev-Rum, with Bud retreating to Gal would probably
make more sense than Bud-Rum, since it threatens an
attempt to retake Bud, and gives you greater options,
but it's your country to defend.
Nick.
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
> I changed my orders at the last moment prior to the deadline after a full
> hour of analyzing the consequences of taking Spain. In my mind, it would
> not have been the correct move.
I would love to hear the results of that analysis. Was it truly the
long-term consequences that decided you, or just the opportunity for a
really good stab? Or did you plan to stab me this year no matter what I
did?
I once again find myself writing to congratulate you on your ability to
blind-side me. And I again find myself asking, was there anything I could
have done differently to retain Italy as an ally?
> I realize that you are still very powerful
> and it will be extremely difficult to break thru your defenses. You have
> many diplomatic options available to you as I made the moves on my own
> accord without promises from any other power. I do not expect or
anticipate
> any help.
You won't need any help. Breaking through my defenses is only a matter of
time. I cannot hold against you in Austria or the Balkans, and as I remove
units I will quickly be reduced to my home centers, and will soon thereafter
lose even those.
In the meantime, you have not a single threat on the board. A very juicy
position, and one that's already caught a lot of attention. But any
"diplomatic options" I might have are useless if they don't translate to
action on the board.
> I know you'll probably spend the rest of the game attempting to wreck
havoc
> on the Italian empire. I don't blame you and would do the same if in your
> shoes.
I will spend the rest of the game trying to build Turkey. At the moment, my
prospects aren't good, and you're clearly my enemy. Be that as it may, I am
not a grudge player, as you've already learned in this game. If at some
point you choose to end your hostilities, my diplomatic channels will remain
open.
Ali
Message from Turkey to Austria
Archduke,
I'm curious to know just how effective Italy's stab really was. Were your
moves suggested by him, or by grey press? Even if you don't reply to me, I
hope you'll mention it in your EOY.
Looks like I'll soon be joining you in exile. Save some space for me.
Regards,
Ali
Message from Master to Austria, England, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and Turkey
Just signing on to encourage End Of Year statements from the players,
especially from Austria (who I think mentioned that he'd be forthcoming
with one soon, anyway).
Thank you for playing Austria; I hope you'll stay on as an observer.
Feel free to continue to affect play in a verbal manner, if you wish.
Doug
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> I would love to hear the results of that analysis. Was it truly the
> long-term consequences that decided you, or just the opportunity for
> a really good stab? Or did you plan to stab me this year no matter
> what I did?
>
I did not plan to stab you this year, until about 15 minutes prior to the
deadline. I will say though, it was stab you now or probably never have the
chance again.
I'll try my best to re-create my analysis but must admit that most of it is
difficult to describe in words.
First, it hinged on a couple of assumptions.
1) Germany would be successful against Russia namely Sil-War allowing
Lvn-Stp to succeed or, even worse for Russia as it turns out, Lvn-Mos and
Gob-STP. The weaker Russia is, the easier and faster for you to take
MOS/WAR and turn your attention my direction.
2) I'm still not confident that Ivy is sincere in his desire to attack
France. He has, since the beginning of the game, tried to lure me into a
fight with France. I have my doubts he'd follow thru if I started. At this
point in the game, I don't think it would be to his advantage. Thus, I
feared I'd have to defend against French counter-attacks without any help
from either England or Germany. I am supremely confident that, even if I
did attack France, England would not allow my entrance into the MAO thus
limiting my gains to no more than Spain and Marseilles.
Tactically, I determined WMS-Spa to be just flat out a bad move. I had no
way of defending it so I would lose it back to France next year. The best I
could hope for was to trade it for Marseilles. But, I'd still have to build
fleets and move them west to block the West Med since France would most
assuredly remove an army and not one of his fleets. That leaves me with two
armies and a fleet (Tri,Vie,Gre) as defense against a Turkish stab. I felt
utterly mystified how I could possibly defend against your next two builds
AND fend off France.
I think if you set the board up and move the pieces and then take a look at
the game from an Italian perspective, you'll understand much better than me
trying desparately to describe it.
> I once again find myself writing to congratulate you on your
> ability to blind-side me. And I again find myself asking, was
> there anything I could have done differently to retain Italy
> as an ally?
>
Allowing Russia to re-capture his home centers. I think that would have
forced me to remain allied with you since Russia would be strong enough to
assist you against me.
>
> In the meantime, you have not a single threat on the board.
> A very juicy position, and one that's already caught a lot
> of attention.
>
I have heard from all of the Western powers and each one is concerned about
my, as one person termed it, '300 lb gorilla' size. They too see the threat
of Italy's size. It would not surprise me to see France turn his attention
my way as opposed to continuing his revenge tactics towards England.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Italy to Master
Italy 1902 EoY statement:
Spring moves:
a tyr hold
a tun hold
f ion - eas
f nap - ion
Fall moves:
tun - ion - eas - smy
tyr hold
These moves were in direct conflict with a Turkish agreement. I had agreed
to not move into the EAS Med in return for Turkey building an army. This
seemed like such an obvious attack though that I couldn't pass it up.
Unfortunately, Austria made a set of moves which allowed Turkey to gain a
build. Austria decided he needed to pursue Russian territory as well as
keeping Turkey in check rather than solely concentrating on Turkey like I
had hoped. Going to have to re-evaluate.
Life is Beautiful,
Ken, aka Roberto
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
> I did not plan to stab you this year, until about 15 minutes prior to the
> deadline.
So you're saying that if the deadline hadn't been extended, you really would
have attacked France? You really know how to hurt a guy.
> I will say though, it was stab you now or probably never have the
> chance again.
And here I was worried about you stabbing me when I had my armies out of
position in Russia.
> I'll try my best to re-create my analysis but must admit that most of it
is
> difficult to describe in words.
Thanks for your explanation. I think you described your position clearly.
> 2) I'm still not confident that Ivy is sincere in his desire to attack
> France. He has, since the beginning of the game, tried to lure me into a
> fight with France.
Remarkable. From my perspective, he has seemed genuinely interested in
attacking France, since the beginning of the game. Naturally he'd want an
ally in the matter, and Germany certainly hasn't been too helpful in that
regard.
> > I once again find myself writing to congratulate you on your
> > ability to blind-side me. And I again find myself asking, was
> > there anything I could have done differently to retain Italy
> > as an ally?
> >
>
> Allowing Russia to re-capture his home centers. I think that would have
> forced me to remain allied with you since Russia would be strong enough to
> assist you against me.
Amazing. That's actually what I was favoring; when the Thursday deadline
passed, my orders were Bla S Sev-Rum. But I got the impression you were
uncomfortable with me taking Bud, and that you wanted me to attack Russia.
You even suggested I hit Moscow. I'll have to re-read your press and see if
I misinterpreted you somehow. Ivy at one point questioned my pro-Russian
proposals, suggesting that they would be regarded with suspicion by Italy,
since it might imply that I was planning to attack you. Really fascinating.
Well, I expected to learn a lot from this game, and so far I have *not* been
disappointed.
> I have heard from all of the Western powers and each one is concerned
about
> my, as one person termed it, '300 lb gorilla' size. They too see the
threat
> of Italy's size. It would not surprise me to see France turn his
attention
> my way as opposed to continuing his revenge tactics towards England.
Well, I can only hope. ;^)
All I can say is, I look forward to the contest, though not to the expected
results. And if you change your mind, you know where to find me.
Ali
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> So you're saying that if the deadline hadn't been extended,
> you really would have attacked France?
>
Only if I would have gained Bud and Vie. My timing might be off in regards
to what agreement was in place prior to the deadline being extended but I
think we were at the point of Italy getting Bud/Vie and moving to GOL/Pie
while Turkey remained in SEV with a gambit in Mos (which would have worked
by the way). It wasn't until England got involved that Spain was brought
into the equation.
>
> And here I was worried about you stabbing me when I had my
> armies out of position in Russia.
>
But my fleets would not have been in position. Plus, I was assuming that
one of your builds would have been a fleet thus effectively preventing my
stab. You can still build a fleet but of course I'm already in the Aegean
with support.
>
> > 2) I'm still not confident that Ivy is sincere in his
> desire to attack
> > France. He has, since the beginning of the game, tried to
> lure me into a
> > fight with France.
>
> Remarkable. From my perspective, he has seemed genuinely
> interested in attacking France, since the beginning of the
> game. Naturally he'd want an ally in the matter, and
> Germany certainly hasn't been too helpful in that regard.
>
You once mentioned something to me about being able to read a player and
having a reasonable idea what he would do. Just call it a gut feeling.
It's my Diplomacy intuition that Ivy's not on the level on this matter.
>
> Amazing. That's actually what I was favoring; when the
> Thursday deadline passed, my orders were Bla S Sev-Rum.
> But I got the impression you were uncomfortable with me
> taking Bud, and that you wanted me to attack Russia.
I was only uncomfortable, as it turns out, if you got Bud AND you remained
in Sev. The bad news for you is that I didn't come to that realization
until you were gone. By that time, there was nothing I could do to
negotiate. That's the bad part of email vs ftf Dip.
> You even suggested I hit Moscow. I'll have to re-read your
> press and see if I misinterpreted you somehow.
>
I recall you asking me if you thought you should try for Moscow IF you
stayed in Sev. I answered honestly by saying yes. This would have given me
Bud and Vie. I would have done that.
> Ivy at one point questioned my pro-Russian
> proposals, suggesting that they would be regarded with
> suspicion by Italy,
> since it might imply that I was planning to attack you.
>
Moral of the story: don't listen to Ivy so closely.
Roberto
Message from Italy to Master
Italy 1903 EoY statement:
Spring moves:
smy - eas - ion - alb
tyr - tri
nap - tys
Fall moves:
tri s Russian army gal - bud
alb s ion - gre
eas - ion
tys - wes
Having re-evaluated my position, I decided to stab Austria. His war with
Russia was delaying Turkey's demise and I felt France would be overrun by EG
before Turkey was controlled. With Turkey at my back and England having
access to the West Med, I didn't think I could wait out Austria's war with
Russia. I was a bit nervous that Turkey would follow thru in the fall. He
definitely had the option of siding with Austria. I suppose I got lucky
here.
I knew Galicia would not make Budapest as Turkey had told me that Austria
was moving Vie-Tri so the support was purely a diplomatic one. The new
Naples fleet moved west at the request of France. I hold open my options as
to whether I would support France or join EG.
Life is Beautiful,
Ken, aka Roberto
Message from Italy to Master
Italy 1904 EoY statement:
Spring moves:
alb - tri
tri - vie
ion s gre
wes s FRENCH f mar - spa/sc
ven - tyr
Fall moves:
tri - ser
vie s TURKISH a ser - bud
tyr - tri
f ion - aeg
f gre s f ion - aeg
wes s FRENCH f spa/sc - mao
My most pressing concern this season was the elimination of Austria. How
that was achieved was secondary to all other things. I started the year
assuming I would gain only one, that being Vienna. But, as the spring moves
indicate, Austria was more upset with Turkey for not helping him last fall
and allowed me to move to Vienna without support. Well, maybe I'll get two
centers this year after all. Then, the judge goes flaky. I resign myself
to one build this year as negotiations continue at a snail's pace. I'm
content with holding Vienna, supporting Turkey to Budapest, while Russia
regains Sevastopol.
Well, a funny thing happened on the way to the Forum.
I steadfastly refuse to enter orders when the judge is down simply because I
may not have time to read the confirmation email and I don't want to make a
typo. So, when Friday morning rolls around, I'm the only one without
orders. To boot, Doug is having difficulty with his email so a deadline
extension looks unlikely.
I give myself an hour or two to finish negotiations with Turkey and then
I'll issue orders. We agree on a plan that would give me Vie and Bud while
Turkey keeps Sev and tries a gambit for Mos. I would also attack France. I
felt this was a fair exchange and entered orders accordingly. Then, out of
the blue, a deadline extension comes down the pike. I quickly set wait so
that I can have a few extra hours to verify that indeed was the best plan
for Italy.
Next thing I know, England pops in with a suggestion for me to take Spain.
How Turkey got involved in this discussion I don't remember but Turkey was
not thrilled with the possibility of me gaining 3 centers while he had a
chance at not gaining any (turns out, he would have gained 1 and I think
been alright). Well, modify the plan. Turkey gets BUD and SEV while Italy
gets VIE and a shot at Spain. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately - only
time will tell), I agree to the new plan. After a thorough analysis later
in the day, I come to the conclusion that the new plan is not in the best
long term interest of Italian prosperity. It was with great trepidation and
heartache that I order the stab of Turkey. He still gets a build but I
believe I can capture Budapest from him with great chances at BUL/RUM in the
near future.
Plans for '05:
Capture Budapest and don't lose any position to Turkey hopefully finding an
Italian fleet in the Eastern Med by winter. Above all else, do not upset
France or Germany or Russia. [Note to self: that means I can't stab anybody
this season.] We need friends now to make sure my stab of Turkey does not
backfire.
Life is Beautiful,
Ken, aka Roberto
Message from Russia to Germany
Fredd,
>I congratulate you on a good guess. I hadn't even
>considered that you would move that way.
It wasn't really a guess. You had to order
GoB S Lvn-StP, or Lvn S GoB-StP, and the Army would
be much more useful to you there, so War S Lvn-StP
was the only possible defense of StP. I expected
that Sil-War would cut the support, but felt that
I had to make the attempt for "political" reasons.
> > Might I suggest Lvn-GoB-Swe this Spring
>Italy must be considered a serious threat to take out Turkey. Therefore I
>would not want to weaken Turkey by letting you 'bother' him in the south.
It remains to be seen who I'll support in the
south. I doubt that Turkey will be as foolish as
Austria, and continue to attack me as Italy rolls
over him, and given freedom from a Northern threat,
I could as easily move War-Gal and take Bud from
Italy, (since he'll take it from Turkey this year).
>I guess I'll have to continue my assault on STP.
This would keep me from getting involved in the
south, but unless you bring another Unit east, or get
some unlikely Turkish cooperation, you won't be able
to hold it.
>I can leave Warsaw and Moscow alone in exchange for you handing STP over to
>me. Now would be the time to do this. I would move my army onto STP.
>(away from WAR)
The only way I'd consider it would be if you did it
with the Fleet. A StP threatens Moscow.
>BTW a convoy to Finland is superior to a convoy to Sweden.
Not really. From Swe you threaten Nwy, and can
cover Den as you move your Fleet to Hel or Ska, and
GoB-Swe. Plus from Swe you don't threaten StP. 8-)
Nick.
Message from Germany to Russia
> >I can leave Warsaw and Moscow alone in exchange for you handing STP
> >over to
> >me. Now would be the time to do this. I would move my army onto STP.
> >(away from WAR)
>
> The only way I'd consider it would be if you did it
> with the Fleet. A StP threatens Moscow.
Seems fair. I will accept that. Although I'll point out that this
leaves me with an army in LVN, which threatens both Moscow AND Warsaw.
I imagine that you're thinking that I should convoy it to Sweden. That
would definitely mean that I'm attacking England. I'm not sure that
that's the way that I want to go. I'm not sure that it isn't. At any
rate if I convoy the army out of there in the spring, what motivation
would you have to go through with our bargain. This requires more
thought and discussion. Another drawback to the convoy is that it shows
England that I'm attacking, but half of my fleets are sitting far away
from him. I don't think he'll get too worried.
>
> >BTW a convoy to Finland is superior to a convoy to Sweden.
>
> Not really. From Swe you threaten Nwy, and can
> cover Den as you move your Fleet to Hel or Ska, and
> GoB-Swe. Plus from Swe you don't threaten StP. 8-)
>
My point was that I also threaten STP. ;-) Hmmm Maybe that's the
compromise?
Fredd
Message from Germany to Turkey
Ali:
Sorry if I've seemed silent. It's on purpose. We really didn't have a
lot to discuss, until now. I like this game, but not to the tune of
spending 2 hours a night reading and writing email.
I will give a look at my overall strategy.
I don't know what to do with England and France. I've been going with
Ivy. What has that gotten us so far. We have 5 English units vs 5
French units. With a little help from me France should already be on
the way out. That is certainly not the case. The problem remains the
English Fleet in the North Sea. Turn after turn it's sitting there.
Why? Certainly there is an excuse for it now, but there really wasn't
when it went in. Ivy apprised my of his intentions to move there. I
was totally against it. For two reasons. 1) It threatened HOL and DEN.
2)We were disengaged on that front, once we are engaged it's very
difficult to withdraw. This prediction has come to pass. Ivy is
very resistant to withdrawing from the North Sea, because of the stab
possibility from my DEN fleet. (with good reason) So he wants to set
up a bounce to keep the North Sea free. In other words, another turn
wasted. Hell he could even get booted out of the Channel if France plays
it right.
This all is crap. I need an ally would will make some bold moves. At
this pace Italy will have won the game before England breaks in on
France.
So I'm a little pissed about England's play. Therefore, switching
alliances to France seems like an option. Unfortunately, France isn't
really in any kind of position to be of use. I'd like him to at least
spook Italy, but if we combine forces and attack England he'll need all
of his fleets in the north to be successful. That'll go over well later
on. We all know what happens when France takes out England with a lot
of fleets, he continues on into Germany.
I don't know what I'll do about E and F. Maybe they'll attack me, and
solve that problem :-(
My major worry right now is Italy. There's only one way that I see
that he can be stopped. That's if you and Russia combine forces.
That's why I offered to leave Russia alone if he turns STP over to me.
I also intend to use that build to build an army and move south with
it. In other words, we get rid of a Russian fleet which is worthless,
and replace it with a German army sitting on Italys northern border.
(It just takes a year to get there)
Russia and I are working on the details of that plan.
Fredd
Message from France to Turkey
Ali:
Thanks for the note and the warning. I have taken it to heart.
Although I may be force to deal with Italy and hope for the best. I
will be as cautious as I can. I will reveal as little of my plans as
possible. Hopefully we need not coordinate very much.
I was concerned about him taking Spain. I actually though England would
support him to Spain and hold in the MAO. I guess they did not know for
certain what Brest would do. I did not offer that information, which
was wise.
I truly hope you hold on. It is for selfish reasons, as it helps me,
and for personal reasons, because I enjoy talking with you.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
After hearing from all the other players, I guess that I need to repeat
my thanks for your not taking Spain. Most people assumed that you were
going to do so. They suggest that it was discussed in great detail.
I admit that I was a bit worried about it, but chose to trust that you
would not. My basis for this trust was that I figure that you did not
want to hasten my fall, did not think you had the resources in place to
hold it, did not want a two-front war (Turkey and France), and worried
that if I was going down I would choose to punish the last person to
betray me.
Whether you never considered taking Spain or if you decided against it
at the last minute, I thank you again.
I hope that you do not mind that I will be a bit conservative in the
next season, while I fondly wave good bye to your fleet. I shall do
nothing threatening, but I will probably keep my defensive options
open. I still believe that it is in your best interest to not betray
me. But you can only receive so many messages before you get a little
paranoid. :-) I truly apologize for my caution.
I wish you luck in your conquest of Turkey.
--Prince Boar
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
I wanted to know where things stand with you. I expect that Turkey is
prepared to grovel, he suggested to me that he was. You should demand
the unconditional surrender of Sevastopol and then work with him. If he
falls quickly, Italy will then be ready to gobble you up next.
I have also been working on turning Germany against England. Part of
this path would be for him to withdraw from Russia. If you could give
him reassurances, and strongly suggest that he take this path, you could
be in great shape. The pressure on your border would disappear and you
would recover your homeland. You could also work to take an Austrian
center off Italy. Once England falls, you can I could discuss other
cooperative efforts.
Can you, will you, put effort forth to create an FG alliance, with R
neutrality?
-- Xavier
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
> What exactly did Mr. Wingo tell you?
That WMed - Spa was your idea.
> Should I have told you about the 'new plan'?
A word of warning from an ally would have been appreciated. At least
then
you could say, I told you so.
> If you've got some guts,
>
> gob-swe; lvn-stp; stp-fin in the spring followed by
> fin-stp; swe s stp-nor in the fall would be an interesting combination.
Yes, it is, if Fredd would commit to attacking England.
Nick.
Message from Russia to Germany
Fredd,
How about, Lvn-StP, GoB-Swe, StP/SC-Fin, War-Lvn? Followed by Swe S
StP-Nwy, Lvn S Fin-StP/SC, perhaps?
Just thinking,
Nick.
Message from Italy to Russia
As you know, I do not like quoting press, however, here is the message in
question that started the talk of my moving to Spain. You can decide for
yourself whether or not it was my idea. I even include a bit that I wrote
in response to Ivy's query about whether or not I was even interested in
attacking France.
>
>
> Message from England to Italy in 'titleist':
>
>
> Roberto,
>
>>What moves would you like me to order this turn as a joint attack of
>>France? WMS s MAO-SPA will not succeed although it may prevent France
>>from reaching the MAO.
>
>
> I am resigned to losing MAO, but if France takes MAO from Spain, doesn't
> that open up Spain for you?
>
> Why not MAO->Spa(sc) & Ion->Tys?
>
> If France gets MAO then you get Spain. I would protect MAO as best as
> possible from NAO. Then he can't take MAO without using both Por &
> Bre. That definately opens up Spa for you. Once France loses a unit, it
> is all downhill for him.
>
> Ivy
I'm not even sure why this bothers me but Ivy has passed on false
information about me all game. It's probably the main reason I failed to
actually help him against France. Deep down, I simply don't trust him.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Russia to France
Xavier,
> I did realize the potential for Italy taking Spain if I
> attacked MAO from that location. But by doing so I
> guaranteed that England could not take it. If I attacked
> from Portugal, Italy could have helped England take
> Spain. I was unwilling to take that chance. I also was
> willing to bet that Italy would prefer to not take on me
> while he had bigger concerns in the East.
Interesting. I see your point, but would have thought WMed-Spa
was more likely than WMed S MAO-Spa.
> Your move to Livonia was brilliant by the way. I never
> really studied the situation, but I certainly did not see
> it during my quick glances. It is good that Germany did
> not trust Italy or I enough to break your support from
> Warsaw.
It surprised Fredd, too. ;-) I was actually expecting Sil-War, with
the disband of the Fleet, and a build of A Mos (for Sev). I ordered
the attack on Lvn for "political" reasons, (hoping to quiet the Bolsheviks),
rather than out of any expectation that it would actually leave me in
control of StP for another year.
> Have you considered putting any effort into turning
> Germany on England. I would take which ever one I could
> arrange. But England seems determined to attack me,
> therefore if we worked together on Germany, we might
> have some luck.
A significant part of his retreat from Russia is the result of my
playing
up the threat of an English stab, I think. I would rather see England
attack
Germany, but I have been discussing stab options with both of them.
Neither one trusts the other, but so far, neither has been willing to
attack.
> How is your relationship with Turkey. Was his remaining
> in Sevastopol a betrayal of you? You almost need to
> side with him against Italy or else Italy will be
> unstoppable and will devour you after Turkey falls.
Yes, for the third time in four years, he has failed to submit orders we
had agreed to. Oddly enough, the one time he didn't was when he was
supposed to get a Center, rather than me. I do see the danger that Italy
poses though, so I haven't ruled out working with the Turk again.
Your Friend,
Nick.
Message from Italy to France
>
> After hearing from all the other players, I guess that I need to repeat
> my thanks for your not taking Spain. Most people assumed that you were
> going to do so. They suggest that it was discussed in great detail.
>
And when you say 'most' you mean England and Turkey. Those were the only
two I discussed Spain with. I suppose they may have mentioned it to Germany
however if Germany passed on that info it would be complete hearsay.
I only allowed the discussion to occur in order to gain valuable information
about the moves of England and Turkey. I was most interested in making sure
England didn't even have North Africa as a retreat option.
> I admit that I was a bit worried about it, but chose to trust that you
> would not. My basis for this trust was that I figure that you did not
> want to hasten my fall, did not think you had the resources in place to
> hold it, did not want a two-front war (Turkey and France), and worried
> that if I was going down I would choose to punish the last person to
> betray me.
Just one of those reasons would have been enough to prevent me from moving
to Spain let alone all four combined. Yes, all of those points were duly
considered and all carried equal weight.
> Whether you never considered taking Spain or if you decided against it
> at the last minute, I thank you again.
Taking Spain was never a serious consideration and at no time did I enter
orders to move to Spain.
> I hope that you do not mind that I will be a bit conservative in the
> next season, while I fondly wave good bye to your fleet. I shall do
> nothing threatening, but I will probably keep my defensive options
> open. I still believe that it is in your best interest to not betray
> me. But you can only receive so many messages before you get a little
> paranoid. :-) I truly apologize for my caution.
As you see fit. No apology necessary. Looking at the map, I don't really
see anyway you can logically breakthru the English armada this spring
anyway.
> I wish you luck in your conquest of Turkey.
Thank you and I wish you luck in whatever country you attempt to conquest
unless that country begins with the letter 'I' of course.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Italy to all
And adjustments haven't processed because ......
Message from Germany to Russia
>
> How about, Lvn-StP, GoB-Swe, StP/SC-Fin, War-Lvn? Followed by Swe S
> StP-Nwy, Lvn S Fin-StP/SC, perhaps?
Wow real moves. Great. I've been getting tired of all the generalized
talk from the others.
I like the first three moves. The fourth not as much.
As I just told Ali, my biggest worry is that Italy will win the game.
In fact, the only way that I see to stop him is if you and I work with
Turkey towards that goal. I was hoping that in resolving hostilities
between us that you'd be able to send both your armies to help Turkey,
immediately. I would even expect that Turkey will give back SEV if you
help out. (Ask him)
You are key here. I don't think that I'm going to be able to send my
Munich army south this turn. Although I intend to use the build (from
STP) to send at least one army south.
I do like the idea of LVN-STP, and GOB-SWE then STP-NWY supported by
SWE. What is of mild concern is leaving your fleet at my back. What
isn't good is not getting a friendly army into GAL. I can see that
Turkey's best move is BUL-BLA, RUM-BUL, BUD-RUM. This leaves GAL open.
We could really use your help in there.
I also see the possibility of a nasty stab from me, if you move both STP
and WAR off their centers. I'd say that I haven't been lying in the
past, but the truth is that given the opportunity to walk into two
centers, I'd probably lie my ass off for that. Therefore, I can't
expect you to move WAR south AND STP-FIN. Perhaps we can do one of
those in the spring, and one in the fall. I'd prefer getting the army
in WAR south ASAP. Perhaps you could do the following:
Spring.
WAR-GAL
UKR-MOS
STP hold
I suppose that I could still double cross you and take STP, but we're
discussing turning it over anyway. You'd also be in position to take
WAR back if I stabbed you by walking into WAR.
This deserves more thought.
Truthfully, I haven't decided that I should attack England, yet.
Fredd
Fredd
Message from Germany to France
> > >I was hoping that you'd have something more substantial
> >to offer, than reasoning.
> What is it that you want me to offer?
18 centers, of course. ;-)
>I am agreeing to build a fleet in Marseilles, per your
>request.
Ah, actually you had said 'force' in your last message. This is a good
clarification.
>
> I have suggest to Russia that we should consider working
> with you. I can put in more effort but hesitated to
> reveal to him our discussions.
I appreciate that you keep these discussions quiet. This game feels
like a broadcast game sometimes. It's caused me (and I think a couple
of others) to keep a lid on what we talk about.
>
> I am very willing to discuss any long term distribution
> of SC. I have in the past agreed to transferring Belgium
> to you, I am still willing to do so.
I think we both know what happens when France and Germany get together
to take out England, and France gets quite a few fleets up around the
English Isle. The next target is Germany. Plus I don't really want to
build fleets. Italy is the clear and present danger. German fleets can
do nothing to stop an Italian takeover.
You also know my greatest fear. That I'll have a strong and powerful
France at my back, down the road. Just look at the trouble England has
breaking in. On the other hand, Italy is already prepared to help me
against you if need be. But then who would take his word on anything.
Let's keep talking along these lines. Russia is the key here. I'm not
asking for your help in talking to him, I can do that well enough on my
own.
We'll have to take two from England by next fall for this to work, and
one of us will have to be in either the Channel or the North Sea.
A word of caution. Italy has stated that he won't be going to TYR if he
builds in VEN. If he does, there are two possibilites. 1)He lied - a
bad idea if he wants to stay on my good side (and he does) 2) Someone
told him that I was interested in moving to Munich. (that would be
you) My advice is to not tell Italy that I'm contemplating a move to
TYR.
Fredd
Message from Germany to England
Ivy:
> My work load is suddenly picked up considerably, so my responses
> may not be as timely as before.
No problem. My opinion is that less is more in this game. Everyone has
their own agenda here. That agenda rarely matches anyone elses. If you
talk too much to someone, you'll soon get pissed at that guy because you
can never agree on anything.
> One difference though. When you were worried about a stab from me,
> you had 6 units to my 5, and I would have only been able to pick up
> one of your centers with the stab. In the current situation, when
> it is still 6 to 5 in your favor, if you entered the North Sea you
> would get two of my centers, making it 8 to 3. That's not just a
> stab; that is death.
Actually any of us can pick up two centers from the other in a quick
hurry. I could take two of yours right now, provided that certain
people help me out either through action or inaction. Obviously there's
the quick snatch of Belgium, but one of our friends has pointed out a
way that I can take Norway, guaranteed.
Just as certainly you can grab HOL, with France's help. Or swing NTH-SKA
and ENG-NTH, to grab DEN. Or both.
The reason that we don't do these things is that neither of us likes the
end result. That's a strong France. We both know that we'll be at war
with him that minute you or I get depleted. We also both know who
usually wins that war. Add in that Italy will probably have already
won, and I don't like the results of grabbing a quick center.
I'd like to stop talking about bouncing NTH. Once before we both moved
away simultaneously. I can do that again. How about you?
DEN - BAL and NTH - NWG seem the best moves. I don't think that we
have a turn to waste on that bounce.
Fredd
Italy: BUILD Fleet Naples
Italy: BUILD Army Venice
Turkey: BUILD Fleet Smyrna
Centers
England: 5
France: 5
Germany: 6
Italy: 8
Russia: 3
Turkey: 7
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