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Message from Master to all
No retreats; F1913M due the evening after Christmas. Have a happy
and safe holiday, everyone!
Doug
masseyd@btv.ibm.com as Master set the deadline
for game 'titleist' to Wed Dec 26 2001 23:30:00 -0500.
Grace period deadline advanced to Mon Dec 31 2001 23:30:00 -0500.
Message from Russia to Master
Russian EoY: 1912
Lessons from 1912:
1) NEVER trust someone with a JDPR over 1800, even if you
think of them as a friend.
2) If something about an ally's Press "just doesn't quite
add up", it means you're about to be stabbed.
France has been claiming that he lacked the desire to try
for a solo, and just wanted the game to end, but then he
said he wanted to get to 16 or 17 Centers in order to be
"safe" as I eliminated Italy, and proposed taking Serbia
in S1913M. I argued that it made more sense for him to
support Tri-Ser, and Mos-Sev, if he really wanted to
eliminate Italy quickly. He agreed, but then "stabbed"
by taking Serbia after all. At that point, I felt I had
to apologize to EI for working with France, and
acknowledge that he had duped me.
The Fall moves to stop France very nearly did not come
off from both sides. France thought he had a deal with
Italy to support his solo, and I came very close to
attacking Italy again just because of his attitude.
Italy and I ended up negotiating through England, and Ivy
managed to pull together the information we gave him, and
craft a set of orders that destroyed two of France's
eastern Armies, effectively ending his solo threat. With
my builds, I had become the second largest Power on the
board, and shockingly to me, the most significant threat
to win the tournament, and to possibly solo in 'titleist'.
I've been fighting so long just to survive, to grow, and
to eliminate the Powers that attacked me, that I had
long ago given up any thought of winning the tournament
or the game, so now I have to completely revise my
thinking. Calls for a draw have begun once again, and
while I suspect that France has just done this to
encourage conflict between England, Russia and Italy, I
dare not vote for the Draw at this point since it would
amount to throwing away my very real chances to win the
tournament and perhaps the game. Given that the three
other surviving Powers are all at least 200 points above
me in JDPR, a solo seems unlikely, but I think I have a
fair shot at ending up and the largest Power in an EFR
three-way.
Message from England to Russia
My, Nick, you certainly are adventurous. I could see it coming, but I
can't see the future easily. After we study the position, I suggest that
we calmly try to determine what might happen next and whether France, once
again, can be stopped.
Ivy
************
Eric,
I'll get back to you asap on the face-to-face. Lots of details need to be
worked out. If you can be the seventh, then the lack of a car shouldn't
stop us. The organizer (not me) is still working on #7.
Allen
Message from France to Russia
As a wise man once asked me:
Care to explain?
Confused,
--King Roger XIII
PS: I hope that you are feeling better
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
> My, Nick, you certainly are adventurous. I could see it coming, but I
> can't see the future easily. After we study the position, I suggest that
> we calmly try to determine what might happen next and whether France,
> once again, can be stopped.
I expect that you won't believe this, but I looked at StP - Nwy, and
then discarded it as unproductive, and unnecessarily provocative. Your
repeated assurances that your "defensive" moves were "harmless",
however, convinced me that a "forward defense" of St. Petersburg was
needed. I didn't expect you to abandon your stalemate line against
France, just to "defend" against the possibility that I might trade Kiel and
Holland for Denmark and Norway. My concern was that if I moved
StP - Mos, as you moved Nth - Nwy, and then trusted you in the Fall,
you would have ended up owning StP again.
As for this Fall, I'd suggest Iri S Nwg-NAO, Nwy-Swe, at a minimum,
though I suppose Nwy-Fin, Den-Swe is possible as well. Nth S Bel,
Kiel S Mun-Ruh, Ber & Sil S Boh-Mun would also go a long way
toward shoring up our line. I'm sorry that the deadline came and past
while I was sick, but I assure you that I'm experienced enough to know
that going silent is not an effective way to hide a stab. 8-)
Nick.
> ************
> I'll get back to you asap on the face-to-face. Lots of details need to be
> worked out. If you can be the seventh, then the lack of a car shouldn't
> stop us. The organizer (not me) is still working on #7.
Ok, there's a bus from Harrisburg - Lewisburg every day, so if you give
me 24 hours notice, I can be there.
Eric.
Message from Russia to France
Roger,
> Care to explain?
What would you like me to explain?
> PS: I hope that you are feeling better
I have no energy, and my head feels like it's full of cotton, (not stuffed
up, I just have the mental acuity of my son's teddy-bear.)
Eric.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>I expect that you won't believe this,
Correct.
Your sudden change of personality plus your general tendency toward bold
moves spelled danger.
> Your repeated assurances that your "defensive" moves were "harmless",
Which they were. Ruhr->Kiel (unsupported) would have bounced harmlessly
had you stayed put. Nao->Nwg threatened nothing of yours; it only enabled
me to recover Norway should you take it (which I expected). Had you
remained an ally, I could have supported Nwg back to Nao with no harm done.
>however, convinced me that a "forward defense" of St. Petersburg was needed.
The move to Silesia defends StP well also.
>I didn't expect you to abandon your stalemate line against France,
If I destroy a unit, it will be either Iri or the Channel. That will leave
only one of my fleets manning the Nao-Iri-Channel line.
>just to "defend" against the possibility that I might trade Kiel and
>Holland for Denmark and Norway.
I was defending against the attack which was coming. Give me a little
credit. Also, "trade" is inadequate. A good ally would have been offering
me one of your centers, probably Holland, to compensate for the gains you
make in the southeast. The lack of such an offer was the greatest tip-off.
>As for this Fall, I'd suggest Iri S Nwg-NAO, Nwy-Swe, at a minimum,
>though I suppose Nwy-Fin, Den-Swe is possible as well. Nth S Bel,
>Kiel S Mun-Ruh, Ber & Sil S Boh-Mun would also go a long way
>toward shoring up our line.
I don't trust you, and nothing you say will change that. We have a mess on
our hands. I haven't figured out just what to do yet, but Belgium->Holland
is certain, with France picking up Belgium. Nor can I afford to move Nwg
back to Nao yet.
Our best bet is you moving to Finland and Sweden as you suggest with me
picking up Kiel and Holland. With my loss of Belgium, I could still build
a fleet in Liverpool. That will be essential, because France will probable
have a forward fleet in Nao or Iri or the Channel and will be bringing up
other fleets.
>I'm sorry that the deadline came and past
>while I was sick, but I assure you that I'm experienced enough to know
>that going silent is not an effective way to hide a stab. 8-)
Right, it is not effective.
You sure are entertaining. Roger was rather depressed. Now he is excited
again.
Ivy
>> ************
>
>> I'll get back to you asap on the face-to-face. Lots of details need to be
>> worked out. If you can be the seventh, then the lack of a car shouldn't
>> stop us. The organizer (not me) is still working on #7.
>
>Ok, there's a bus from Harrisburg - Lewisburg every day, so if you give
>me 24 hours notice, I can be there.
>
>Eric.
You'll have much greater notice than that.
Allen
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
> Your sudden change of personality plus your general tendency toward bold
> moves spelled danger.
My sudden change of personality? I'm not sure what you're referring to
here.
My silence? Or something else.
> > Your repeated assurances that your "defensive" moves were "harmless",
> Which they were. Ruhr->Kiel (unsupported) would have bounced harmlessly
> had you stayed put. Nao->Nwg threatened nothing of yours; it only enabled
> me to recover Norway should you take it (which I expected). Had you
> remained an ally, I could have supported Nwg back to Nao with no harm
done.
You were talking about exchanging Centers in the north to balance my gains
in
the south. That means Hol, Kie, and perhaps Swe. I pulled back from Kiel,
to make the exchange possible while getting my Fleet to Swe to hold that if
I felt
it was necessary. If you had wanted to bounce Ruh off RF Kiel, you should
have said so.
> >however, convinced me that a "forward defense" of St. Petersburg was
needed.
> The move to Silesia defends StP well also.
I'm not sure I understand this, either, but I suspect it's sarcasm. The
move to
Sil, defends War, defends Mun, and positions me to move to Boh if necessary
or possible. Yes, in combination with A Pru, it also threatens Berlin, but
to what
point? If I stab you, one of two things happens, I end up facing EFI, our I
end
up facing EI as F solos behind you.
> >I didn't expect you to abandon your stalemate line against France,
> >just to "defend" against the possibility that I might trade Kiel and
> >Holland for Denmark and Norway.
> I was defending against the attack which was coming. Give me a little
> credit. Also, "trade" is inadequate. A good ally would have been
offering
> me one of your centers, probably Holland, to compensate for the gains you
> make in the southeast. The lack of such an offer was the greatest
tip-off.
What attack?!?!? I take Nwy, Den, and Ber, you take Kie, and Hol, and
Italy turns on me like the rabid dog that he is? And again, I'm sorry that
I
got sick this weekend, and was home sick yesterday, and that my wife was
on the PC almost all day yesterday (at least when I was awake). I moved
Kie-Den, expecting you to move Ber-Kie, I'm sorry that we didn't have a
chance to discuss it. If I was attacking you, wouldn't I have attacked
Italy
at the same time to try to keep him from turning on me?
> I don't trust you, and nothing you say will change that. We have a mess
on
> our hands. I haven't figured out just what to do yet, but
Belgium->Holland
> is certain, with France picking up Belgium. Nor can I afford to move Nwg
> back to Nao yet.
*shrug* As I said to Italy, I can't keep you from throwing the game to
France, but it would be awfully ironic for you to do it when I'm not even
attacking you.
> Our best bet is you moving to Finland and Sweden as you suggest with me
> picking up Kiel and Holland. With my loss of Belgium, I could still build
> a fleet in Liverpool. That will be essential, because France will
probable
> have a forward fleet in Nao or Iri or the Channel and will be bringing up
> other fleets.
No, that's plain stupid. If I move to Fin and Swe, then there's no reason
for you to give Belgium to France, or not move back to NAO. Nth S Bel,
Iri S Nwg-NAO, Kie S Mun-Ruh, Sil S Boh-Mun, and ECh retreats to
Wal, build F Lon if France takes the Channel, otherwise, build A Lon,
and convoy it to Hol next Spring.
> >I'm sorry that the deadline came and past while I was sick,
> >but I assure you that I'm experienced enough to know
> >that going silent is not an effective way to hide a stab. 8-)
>
> Right, it is not effective.
Then, OBVIOUSLY, what I did was NOT a STAB!!! My JDPR might be
200 points lower than yours, but it's still above 1500, so don't react as if
I'm
some rank newbie, who says, "Oooh, look! I'm adjacent to two Centers
that I don't own! I'll move into them!" As I said, in my earlier letter,
I
looked at StP-Nwy right after builds, and rejected it because it would not
have advanced my position. I came back to it, only because your letters to
me were so clearly screaming, "I know you're going to stab me so I'm going
to move against you!" You moved Ruh-Kie expecting it to bounce, and I
moved StP-Nwy expecting it to bounce. Guess what? We were both
wrong. Does this mean we have to self-destruct in some pointless border
clash as Roger Yonkowski (JDPR 1818) cruises to yet another solo? I
hope not. I ask you to stop; listen to what I'm saying, and look at the
board. Do you see any way for me to win by stabbing you in S1913M?
Even if you didn't anticipate it? I understand that my silence worried you,
and that you reacted to it. And again, I am sorry for my silence, but I'm
talking now, and it's a new turn, so let's take the board position as it
stands, and do what is necessary to keep France from winning. That
has to be our primary goal, or we're going to be really embarrassed
every time someone goes to the Showcase section of the Pouch. 8-)
Come on, Ivy, I'm a challenge to work with, and I'm difficult to predict,
but I'm not stupid, and stabbing you would have been profoundly dumb.
Your Friend,
and Ally,
Nick.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
>What would you like me to explain?
Your moves. :-)
Did Ivy OK the moves to Den and Norway? What are you planning on doing?
--King Roger XIII
I am gone for 3-4 days now.
Message from Russia to France
King Roger,
> > What would you like me to explain?
>Your moves. :-)
Well, I expanded from my power base in the southern
and central region, and attempted to consolidate my
holdings in the north for better defense. ;^}
>Did Ivy OK the moves to Den and Norway?
No.
>What are you planning on doing?
I plan to try to keep you from soloing as Ivy
over-reacts to my moves. 8-)
Nick.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>My sudden change of personality? I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
>My silence? Or something else.
Silence, followed by five messages on Tuesday none of which mentioned
specific moves. That was totally unlike you when we were cooperating.
>You were talking about exchanging Centers in the north to balance my gains
>in the south.
No so. I never suggested an exchange. Recheck the mail. I said,
"Remember, if you grow, I wish to grow in tandem. That's easily done." In
a later message I said, " ...nor has there been any reply to my strong hint
that you and I need to stay relatively equal in strength if your plan is
anti-Italy instead of anti-France."
>If I stab you, one of two things happens, I end up facing EFI, our I
>end up facing EI as F solos behind you.
If you haven't stabbed me, then by a terrible accident you have stumbled
into two of my supply centers and have advanced on Berlin. It can be
undone. We both know how to work with each other in spite of past differences.
>got sick this weekend, and was home sick yesterday, and that my wife was
>on the PC almost all day yesterday (at least when I was awake).
I know. However, I received five messages from you
yesterday. 1-2-3-4-5. Did any of them discuss moves or offer me
compensation for your gains against Italy?
>*shrug* As I said to Italy, I can't keep you from throwing the game to
>France, but it would be awfully ironic for you to do it when I'm not even
>attacking you.
Of course I will not throw the game to France if you change your mind about
attacking me. Move those units back to StP and Sweden and Warsaw and you
will have me back in your camp.
>No, that's plain stupid. If I move to Fin and Swe, then there's no reason
>for you to give Belgium to France, or not move back to NAO. Nth S Bel,
>Iri S Nwg-NAO, Kie S Mun-Ruh, Sil S Boh-Mun, and ECh retreats to
>Wal, build F Lon if France takes the Channel, otherwise, build A Lon,
>and convoy it to Hol next Spring.
I will only agree to wait a turn and watch your moves. Anyway, I have
absolutely no control over Italian units. Italy will wait to see whether
you stay in Sevastopol before even discussing anything.
> And again, I am sorry for my silence, but I'm
>talking now, and it's a new turn, so let's take the board position as it
>stands, and do what is necessary to keep France from winning.
Good. That's my kind of talk. We should be OK after the fall moves have
rectified the situation.
>Come on, Ivy, I'm a challenge to work with
I have never met a good player as difficult as you. I guess that's a
compliment of sorts.
>and stabbing you would have been profoundly dumb.
Let's put it this way. You did not stab me. You accidentally found
yourself in two of my supply centers and have advanced upon a third. You
did not do anything stupid, but unfortunately you need to back up a
little. I am requesting moves that gain me a unit this year to compensate
for your growth in the southeast.
Most cordially,
Ivy
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Roberto, and Ivy,
Sil-Gal, Bud S Tri-Ser, Ukr S Bla-Rum would destroy
the French Army in Rum. If we combined that with
Vie-Tri, Boh-Vie, you wouldn't have to disband. I
guess the other possibility would be Tri S Bud-Ser,
Sev-Arm, Ukr-Gal(?), Ank S Bla-Con. That would not
destroy the French Army but would still leave you
at 5 or 6 Centers, and it would allow Kie S Mun-Ruh,
Sil S Boh-Mun to shore up the western defenses. We
have time to ponder and dicuss options, but I wanted
to offer my initial thoughts for discussion.
Nick.
Message from Italy to England and Russia
> We have time to ponder and dicuss options, but I
> wanted to offer my initial thoughts for discussion.
>
Still reviewing Nick's suggestions. At first glance, they look like a good
starting point.
I am curious about the following however:
> Movement results for Spring of 1913. (titleist.050)
>
> England: Army Ruhr -> Kiel.
> Russia: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
> Russia: Army St Petersburg -> Norway.
Is there some kind of cooperation going on here that I was unaware of. Mind
you, I don't need to know how you want to deal with your northern units, but
were all of these moves expected? If the status quo remains thru the fall,
Ivy has to disband and I don't really see a viable English disband if we
expect to hold back France in the west.
Roberto
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
>Silence, followed by five messages on Tuesday none of which mentioned
>specific moves. That was totally
>unlike you when we were cooperating.
I was late, you hadn't mentioned any specific moves,
there was no area where our forces were operating
together, I was replying to your mail, and I addressed
moves with Roberto. It sounds as though you believed
you were going to be stabbed, and interpreted what I
did and said from that perspective.
> >You were talking about exchanging Centers in the north >to balance my
>gains in the south.
>No so. I never suggested an exchange. Recheck the mail.
By "exchange" I meant you take my northern Centers as I
take southern Centers from France and/or Italy.
>If you haven't stabbed me, then by a terrible accident you have stumbled
>into two of my supply
>centers and have advanced on Berlin.
Kiel-Den is hardly an "advance" on your Centers.
Indeed, it was done to facilitate your taking my
German Centers as I advanced in the South. Moving
into your Centers in the Spring is not a "stab",
unless I intend to, and am capable of holding them
in the Fall. That's not my intention, and it's
beyond my capability.
>I received five messages from you yesterday. Did any of them discuss moves
>or offer me
>compensation for your gains against Italy?
I was late. Negotiating about moves while late is
against the House Rules. I broke that rule with
Italy to coordinate our Austrian moves, but since
you had offered no plans for the Spring, beyond your
stated intention to "harmlessly" defend, I didn't
feel it was appropriate to further hold up the turn
to discuss "compensation".
>Move those units back to StP and Sweden and Warsaw and you will have me
>back in your camp.
No. I will move to Fin and Swe, but I will not block
my Home Centers on a Fall move.
>I will only agree to wait a turn and watch your moves.
That's not good enough. France is STILL at 13 Centers,
(actually 15, if you count Rum and Bul), if you give
him Bel, and give him access to England, he could
solo next year.
>We should be OK after the fall moves have
>rectified the situation.
Not unless you defend Bel, and return to NAO.
> > stabbing you would have been profoundly dumb.
>You did not stab me. You accidentally found
>yourself in two of my supply centers and have
>advanced upon a third.
No! There is a third, and much more reasonable
explanation. I pulled back from Kiel so that
you could take it, and I moved StP-Nwy to keep
you from moving Nth-Nwy and threatening StP.
I moved War-Sil to help defend Munich from French
attack as you took Kiel, and to be in position to
support you into Mun, or move into Austria if and
when we decided to attack Italy. Keep in mind
that your Army in Berlin is further away from
your Home Centers than any Unit of mine is, so
it's exceedingly difficult for me to move away
from my Home Centers, without advancing on yours.
>I am requesting moves that gain me a unit this year to compensate for your
>growth in the southeast.
Kie HOLD (or S Mun-Ruh), Nth S Bel, Nwg-NAO, Den-Swe,
Swe-Fin, does just that without completely wrecking
(y)our line against France.
Nick.
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Roberto,
>Still reviewing Nick's suggestions. At first glance, they look like a good
>starting point.
>
>I am curious about the following however:
>
> > England: Army Ruhr -> Kiel.
> > Russia: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
> > Russia: Army St Petersburg -> Norway.
>
>Is there some kind of cooperation going on here that I was unaware of.
No cooperation. None of these moves were ever discussed in advance. I was
expecting a stab. I moved Ruhr->Kiel and Nao-Nwg, because I believed that
Nick was going to pull some funny stuff. Both moves were harmless if Nick
made selfless moves. Nick reassures me that there was no stab. His moves,
including Warsaw->Silesia, which threatens Berlin, were described as
"forward defense" -- his words.
Ok. So there was no stab, but Nick does find himself in two of my supply
centers, Norway and Denmark, and is accidentally bearing down on
Berlin. Perhaps, good Roberto, you can persuade him to move back again,
after which I will do my best to restore the defense line against France.
I too think he has made some interesting suggestions for moves.
Ivy
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
>I am curious about the following however:
> > Movement results for Spring of 1913. (titleist.050)
> >
> > England: Army Ruhr -> Kiel.
> > Russia: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
> > Russia: Army St Petersburg -> Norway.
>Is there some kind of cooperation going on here that I was unaware of.
>Mind you, I don't need to know how you want to deal with your northern
>units, but
>were all of these moves expected? If the status quo remains thru the fall,
>Ivy has to disband and I don't really see a viable English disband if we
>expect to
>hold back France in the west.
Ivy was concerned about my silence, and told me that
he was submitting "harmless" defensive moves as a
precaution. I assumed that meant Nth-Nwy, and since
I did not want him adjacent to StP, I ordered StP-Nwy
to bounce it. Kie-Den was just pulling back on the
way to Swe. Ivy claims Ruh-Kie was supposed to bounce
off F Kiel (and cut Kiel S Pru-Ber, though he didn't
mention that part. 8-) This is one of those examples
of why communication is so important. It looks like
a full out war, when neither of us wanted that. We
are discussing ways to disengage. Care to mediate,
Roberto? ;^}
Nick.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from England to Italy and Russia in 'titleist':
>Nick reassures me that there was no stab. His moves,
>including Warsaw->Silesia, which threatens Berlin,
>were described as "forward defense" -- his words.
Again, a matter of perspective, the move to Sil was
intended to allow Sil S Mun, and free up Boh and Ber
to move to Tyl and Kie. I'm sorry that I didn't have
time to explain my thought processes to you both.
Nick.
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Roberto, Nick,
Since I am quite upset, and since Roger is out of town anyway, I am going
to take a couple of days to calm down. If Roberto has anything to say, I
should be able to respond to him.
Talk won't help much in situations like this anyway. Unilateral moves got
us into the situation and unilateral moves will extract us. It shouldn't
be hard.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Ivy, and Roberto,
Ivy Wrote >
>Since I am quite upset, I am going to take a couple
>of days to calm down. If Roberto has anything to say, I should be able to
>respond to him.
Ok, hopefully when you've calmed down you can
consider my proposed solution with an open mind.
I'm available to discuss options with Roberto,
if he'd care to mediate.
Nick.
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
Here is my proposal for the North:
---------------Sent to England------------------------
Ivy > I am requesting moves that gain me a unit this
Ivy > year to compensate for your growath in the south
Kie HOLD (or S Mun-Ruh, Sil S Boh-Mun), Nth S Bel,
Nwg-NAO, Den-Swe, Swe-Fin, does just that without
completely wrecking our line against France.
------------------End Copy--------------------------
It seems workable and effective to me. If you order
Boh-Vie, we could lose ECh and Ruh, but probably
won't lose both. I don't see a better option.
Please let me know what you think.
Nick.
Message from Italy to England and Russia
Gentlemen,
I'm available to mediate, but I need some time to think. I don't want to
make any rash comments without exploring all sides and options. I don't
want to add fuel to the fire. Feel free to send more information publicly
or privately that you feel would help me in the mediation process.
I have been called to jury duty the week of Dec. 26th so I may ask that the
deadline be pushed back if necessary.
Roberto
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
Thanks for your offer to help. I'm not sure that
there's anything else I send you that would help
you understand the situation I find myself in with
Ivy, since I'm not sure I understand it myself, 8-)
but I am available to answer any questions you
might have.
On one level, I suppose I can understand Ivy's
concern about my silence, but going silent before
a stab is such a bush-league tactic that I'm
surprised, and a bit insulted, that Ivy would
think I was using it. I also don't see why Ivy
thinks I would stab, or have stabbed. Stabbing
England when I only have one Fleet just strikes
me as pointless. Yes, I can make him angry, and
possibly give France renewed hope of a solo,
but what does it get me beyond a Center or two?
It almost makes me wonder if Ivy was planning
to stab me, but I suspect that's just paranoia.
Once again, let me know if you have any questions.
Nick.
Message from Russia to Master
>Movement orders for Fall of 1913. (titleist.051)
>Russia: Army Ukraine -> Rumania.
>Russia: Fleet Denmark -> Sweden.
>Russia: Army Trieste -> Serbia.
>Russia: Army Prussia -> Berlin.
>Russia: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Trieste -> Serbia.
>Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Ukraine -> Rumania.
>Russia: Army Silesia SUPPORT Army Prussia -> Berlin.
>Russia: Army Norway -> Sweden.
"The Grand Stab"
These tentative moves assume that EI accept my
protestations of innocence, and agree to moves I
have suggested. I would also ask France to tap Tri
with Ven or Tyl to bounce Vie-Tri, Boh-Vie, if that
is the move set Italy agrees to. If all goes as
planned, I gain five Centers, giving me 13, and
build three Units, giving me 11. France remains at
13 Centers, Italy loses two, dropping to three
Centers, and England loses two, dropping to five.
I've got to look at what would happen in 1914,
before committing to these moves, since France
has the potential to pick up five quick Centers
in the West, if EI disbands Mun, ECh and Iri.
Nick.
Message from Russia to England, France, and Italy
Gentlemen,
I'm taking tomorrow (12/21) off from work, in order to
do my Christmas shopping, (and to see Lord of the Rings),
and then I am taking my son to see Jimmy Neutron, Boy
Genius, on Saturday, and will let him pick out a gift
for his mother. The Governor has given State Employees
Monday, Christmas Eve, off, and of course, Christmas is
a holiday, as well, so I won't be back in the office
until the 26th. I will check mail most, if not all of
those days, and will respond, if anyone writes, but my
availability will be somewhat more limited than it
usually is. If I don't hear from you before then, I
hope that those of you who celebrate Christmas have a
very merry one.
Eric.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
By this time tomorrow there will be 16 people in our house, and it will
stay hectic for a few days after that. So, maybe I ought to get off a
message while I can.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, the best I can come up with is that
your last moves were, shall we say, deliberately flexible. Consistent with
goals of stopping France, or eliminating Italy, or going for glory.
You know that I have voted twice for draw. This was based on no chance for
solo plus the apparant achievement of the only resonable goal open to me,
stopping France.
Since the game continues, my only wish in continuing our partnership is
that we stay even. That means one of us is no more than one unit ahead of
the other. That's why your last moves were so scary to me. You know,
internally, what your goals are. If they include numerical superiority
over me, then it is certain that we will be at war. And I can't maintain
my standoff with France if I have to fight you. That became clear with my
last moves.
The upcoming moves will be critical in that they will reveal to all just
what you have in mind. I have to assume that you are staying in
Sevastopol. It's hard to believe otherwise. Going into this year you had
8 to my 7. If collectively we are to have 16 at the end of the year then I
want it to be 8 to 8. More likely it might be 9 to 8, since you have so
many opportunities.
I don't expect you to tell me your moves. It wouldn't do any good anyway.
I wish to see your moves, not hear about them. I will say that I do like
the plan of destroying the French army in Rumania.
Nor will I be able to tell you my moves. Indeed, I don't know what they
will be myself, and I don't have the time or stomach for debate. I just
know that we have to undo the mess from the spring, and I probably cannot
afford to be completely passive about it.
Seasons tidings,
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Ivy and Roberto,
> Message from England to Russia in 'titleist':
(I'm including Italy in this reply in hopes that he can moderate.)
> Giving you the benefit of the doubt, the best I can come up with is that
> your last moves were, shall we say, deliberately flexible. Consistent
with
> goals of stopping France, or eliminating Italy, or going for glory.
I was sick, I was late, I didn't analyze my moves beyond immediate tactical
goals, (defending my centers, opening my Home Centers for builds, moving
toward the front). I didn't stop to think, "What if Ivy DOESN'T order Nth
to Nwy? How will he react to StP-Nwy?" If I stab you, France Solos, if
I attack Italy instead of France, France wins tournament in a walk, if I
take
French Centers in the Med, I have a chance to have the most Centers in the
Draw, and the tournament victory. It seems like an obvious choice to me.
> You know that I have voted twice for draw. This was based on no
> chance for solo plus the apparent achievement of the only reasonable
> goal open to me, stopping France.
>
> Since the game continues, my only wish in continuing our partnership is
> that we stay even. That means one of us is no more than one unit ahead
> of the other. That's why your last moves were so scary to me. You
> know, internally, what your goals are. If they include numerical
> superiority over me, then it is certain that we will be at war. And I
can't
> maintain my standoff with France if I have to fight you. That became
> clear with my last moves.
If I fight you, France Solos, why would I want that? I understand your
desire to stay even, but as Italy and I take Med Centers from France, he'll
be forced to disband, and while he might disband Med Units, and let Italy
back into his Home Centers, it's also possible that he could disband in the
west, giving you growth opportunities greater than or equal to my own, so
I am hesitant to give you all of my northern Centers at a pace of your
choosing. Kie-Den was intended as a signal that I was ceding Kiel, and
Holland to you; StP-Nwy was intended to defend StP and Swe until we
know where France will disband.
> The upcoming moves will be critical in that they will reveal to all just
> what you have in mind. I have to assume that you are staying in
> Sevastopol. It's hard to believe otherwise. Going into this year you
> had 8 to my 7. If collectively we are to have 16 at the end of the year
> then I want it to be 8 to 8. More likely it might be 9 to 8, since you
> have so many opportunities.
I laid out my ideas for moves to you both. I'm willing to let Italy choose
moves for the Alliance, as you did last year.
> I don't expect you to tell me your moves. It wouldn't do any good
> anyway. I wish to see your moves, not hear about them. I will say
> that I do like the plan of destroying the French army in Rumania.
I'm comfortable with either option I laid out, or some variation on them.
> Nor will I be able to tell you my moves. Indeed, I don't know what
> they will be myself, and I don't have the time or stomach for debate.
> I just know that we have to undo the mess from the spring, and I
> probably cannot afford to be completely passive about it.
It seems to me that our first goal still has to be stopping the French Solo.
He's still at 13 Centers, and he's still Roger Yonkoski. Nwy-Fin,
Den-Swe, leaves you up a Center as long as you order Nth S Bel. I
urge you to discuss this with Roberto, and accept his advice.
In Alliance,
and Friendship,
Happy Holidays,
Nick/Eric.
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Tell me about Jimmy Neutron. Did you like it? Is it more appropriate
for little kids or older ones? Mine are 3.5, 6, 8.
Welcome to the land of the superpowers. Quite an impressive achievement
from your being nearly out. And you finally have all your home centers
back (almost). You have me out gunned in the south too. Italy did you
a big favor last fall (besides denying my victory). I suspect that in
the end, England and I will have to join forces to prevent your
victory. :-)
Have a very Merry Christmas (if you celebrate it)
--King Roger XIII
Message from Russia to France
Roger,
>Tell me about Jimmy Neutron. Did you like it? Is it more appropriate or
>little kids or older ones?
Ian is 7, and he liked it a lot. I'm not sure how
a three yr. old would react to the town's parents
being kidnapped by space aliens, but JN and his
friends rescue everyone, and there's a fair amount
of burping and throwing-up humor, so I'd say it
would be good for the group. There were a few
moments that I appreciated, but it's much more
of a kid's movie, than say the typical Disney
movie where there tends to be humor aimed at the
parents in the audience, too.
>Welcome to the land of the superpowers. Quite an
>impressive achievement from your being nearly out. And you finally have all
>your home centers back
Yes, now the question is will England accept that
my moves to Nwy and Den were not a stab, but were
just an "I'm sick, and I'm late, and England has
sent me three letters telling me he's making
'harmless defensive moves', so I have to protect
StP while sacrificing Hol and Kie.", response, and
keep you from soloing in the west, rather than
attacking me.
>I suspect that in the end, England and I will have to join forces to
>prevent your
>victory. :-)
Given the way Ivy is over-reacting, I'd say the
victory is still yours to take, and your 5 Center
advantage over me is still significant, but I
suppose I do have a fair shot at winning the
tournament on Center-Count, if Ivy calms down.
>Have a very Merry Christmas (if you celebrate it)
Thanks, I hope you have one, as well.
Eric.
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Thanks for the movie critique. If we find time, we may go see the
movie. I think that my youngest can handle the kidnapping as long as it
is not too scary with real evil looking characters.
I like the way you spin things. You steal two centers from England and
say that he overreacts :-) Impressive. What nasty things did Roberto
say to you?
--King Roger XIII
Message from Russia to France
> Message from France to Russia in 'titleist':
> Thanks for the movie critique. If we find time, we may go see the
> movie. I think that my youngest can handle the kidnapping as long as it
> is not too scary with real evil looking characters.
No, it's more funny than scary.
> I like the way you spin things. You steal two centers from England and
> say that he overreacts :-) Impressive. What nasty things did Roberto
> say to you?
It's Spring. I've stolen them only if I remain in them this Fall, and give
that
Ivy's in Kiel, and can retake Nwy or Den, we're effectively even. *shrug*
Roberto, as is usual, hasn't said much.
Nick.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Gentlemen,
Well, we have eighteen hours. Is there any chance we
can agree to keep France from winning one more time?
Nick.
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Nick, Roberto,
I hope you both have been enjoying the season.
> Is there any chance we can agree to keep France from winning one more time?
France's threat is not nearly so great as it was just one year ago. The
greatest likelihood of a French victory would present itself if Nick's
moves confirmed selfish ambition on his part, and Roberto and I were placed
in the position of having to choose a winner. The game could end quickly
if that happened.
In spite of the very serious differences that Nick and I are having, I
still like his strategy of destroying the French army in Rumania. That
reduces France's chances even more.
I am going to write to Roberto privately, and I assume Nick will do the
same. I hope that Roberto and I can agree on England's moves and that the
two of you can agree on moves for Russia.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Ivy, and Roberto,
Ivy Wrote >
>France's threat is not nearly so great as it was The greatest likelihood of
>a French victory would
>present itself if Nick's moves confirmed selfish
>ambition on his part, and Roberto and I were placed in the position of
>having to choose a winner. The game could end quickly
I tire of explaining why I moved as I did this Spring,
so I'll just refer you to my earlier letters. 8-) Yes,
France will win quickly if you and Roberto attack me,
but I fear that you underestimate his very real
chances if you fail to cover Ruhr and NAO this Fall,
in an attempt to hedge your bets. The best we can
hope for in the east is to destroy FA Rum, and to
take Ser in trade for Bul, and hope he doesn't
support himself into Tri. With your retreat from
Ruhr, he can open Mar for a build, and if he moves
into Ruhr and/or NAO, all of those Units currently
tied down defending France will be able to go on
the attack, and roll over England, the Lowlands,
and western Germany, giving him the victory.
>I am going to write to Roberto privately, and I assume
>Nick will do the same. I hope that Roberto and I can
>agree on England's moves and that the two of you can
>agree on moves for Russia.
I'm basically waiting for Roberto to get back to me.
I'm willing to go with a variation of either set of
moves I offered earlier, and have no strong feeling
in favor of either, but it is important for Roberto
and I to be on the same page. I've ordered Nwy-Fin,
Den-Swe, and am waiting for instructions in the East.
Nick.
Message from Italy to Master, England, France, and Russia
Gentlemen,
The holiday season was busier for me than expected - more travel and
visiting than anticipated. Now, a sore throat is travelling thru the family
and I don't feel so hot. To boot, I got called into jury duty.
Although I hate to ask for a deadline extension, I think I need one. Doug,
can you extend the deadline to Friday (hopefully that will be enough time).
Italy
Message from France to England, Italy, and Russia
Ken:
>Now, a sore throat is travelling thru the family
>and I don't feel so hot. To boot, I got called into
>jury duty.
If the sore throat etc. gets you out of Jury duty, it
just might be worth it :-) Take care of yourself and
your public duty. The game can wait.
Roger
Message from Russia to Master, England, France, and Italy
>Message from France to Italy, England and Russia in 'titleist':
>If the sore throat etc. gets you out of Jury duty, it
>just might be worth it :-) Take care of yourself and
>your public duty. The game can wait.
But, I was planning on soloing by New Year's Eve!
(*Did I just say that out-loud?* ;^}
Seriously though, Ken, take the time you need.
It's bad enough that this Spring's moves were
the result of rushed, under-the-weather
thinking, without doing the same this Fall.
Happy Kwanzaa/Boxing Day, Everyone,
Eric.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
I'm a little surprised that the deadline was not extended. It is possible
that Doug was out of town and did not get Roberto's appeal, or perhaps he
felt that the late period was sufficient to cover Roberto's needs. It is
not the same though, since one is not supposed to diplome during a late
period without having submitted moves. That makes Italy's position a
little difficult.
I've submitted moves so that my messages to you and Italy are
"legal." There is one item I wish to bring to your attention.
Roger, the never exhausted diplomat, has sent yet another proposal my
way. He suggests that perhaps there is a way that England, France, and
Italy can work to eliminate Russia. This "for a whim" idea was even
accompanied by a detailed set of moves for each of us -- France, Russia,
and Italy. You don't have to worry about me; I can still count. French
supply centers = 13; Russian supply centers = 8. Although I have slightly
greater affection for France than Russia (there, there, don't take it so
hard), I still have a logical mind. France is still the greater danger by
far, and I have no intention of even showing the slightest interest in his
plan.
It's Italy that I am worried about. Has Roger floated the same or similar
ideas to Roberto? Roberto is still capable of screwing up the defense
against France if he gets upset with us or becomes infatuated with some
crazy anti-Russian scheme cooked up by France with the purpose of setting
off more conflict between ERI.
I will send another message to Italy recommending solidarity. In
particular, in case Italy finds himself in no position to coordinate moves
with you because of late-period ethics, I will recommend to him your moves
that eliminate Rumania. Once Rumania is gone, the French threat will be
greatly reduced (and yours enhanced, alas). Afterwards it will be much
more difficult for Italy to assist France should he ever have the
inclination again.
To be precise, I am recommending your suggestion "Sil-Gal, Bud S Tri-Ser,
Ukr S Bla-Rum [that] would destroy
the French Army in Rum." Once that army is gone, I think you will be able
to be more aggressive toward Italy without much danger. Since
Silisia->Galicia might succeed, you may also wish to consider Prussia->Silesia.
One last item. I know that you have suggested to France on more than one
occasion that you and he finish the game in a 2-way. Lot's of
propositions get bandied about, eg the crazy EFI against R mentioned
above. That's fine by me. All's fair and all of that. Let good diplomacy
prevail.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
>I'm surprised that the deadline was not extended.
I imagine Doug was not online yesterday. I can't
see him refusing to extend the deadline, given
Roger's situation, the holidays, and Ken's Jury
Duty. Even if Doug was the sort to demand a "valid
excuse", we have several in this situation.
>Roger, the never exhausted diplomat, has sent yet
>another proposal my way. He suggests that perhaps
>there is a way that England, France, and Italy can
>work to eliminate Russia.
Not surprising, really, though a bit impractical
unless the plan calls for Roberto to retake Venice.
>You don't have to worry about me; I can still count. French supply centers
>= 13; Russian supply centers = 8.
As can I. I looked for the stab you were so worried
about, and the best I can see, assuming EVERYTHING
breaks my way, is for Russia to gain 5 Centers and
3 Units, while France remains even. So, that's 13-13
on Centers, with Roger having a two Unit advantage.
Even given my superior position in the East, that
still looks like a French Solo to me.
>Although I have slightly greater affection for France than Russia (there,
>there, don't take it so hard), I still have a logical mind.
That's ok, I like France more than I like England,
(or Russia, for that matter ;^), too. That's why
Roger's JDPR is as high as it is, he makes you like
him even as he's stabbing you. 8-)
>It's Italy that I am worried about. Roberto is still capable of screwing
>up the defense
>against France if he gets upset with us
Fortunately, it is difficult for France to make gains
in the Med without doing Italy much greater harm than
can be done to Russia. My concern about Roberto's
state of mind played a large role in my offering him
the decision on our Med moves.
>I will recommend to him your moves that eliminate Rumania. To be precise,
>I am recommending your suggestion "Sil-Gal, Bud S Tri-Ser, Ukr S Bla-Rum
>[that] would destroy the French Army in Rum."
Given your repeated endoresments of that move, it
was the set I chose as my default orders. I'll
confirm that to Roberto as well, with an offer to
change if he'd rather see something else.
>I know that you have suggested to France on more than one occasion that you
>and he finish the game in a 2-way.
France is the only Power that has not occupied a
Russian Home Center, so from a "storyline"
perspective, the FR 2-way makes sense. Also,
Roger and I battled our way to a stalemated IR
2-way in vgfp0013, (I was Italy), so there is
the 'working relationship/mutual respect' aspect
to it as well. I don't believe that we've
mentioned the 2-way since France failed to
support me into Ser and Sev in S1912M, though,
and the discussions of an FR 2-way were always
in a "in a perfect world", "what I'd like to see",
frame of reference, rather than a, "you know, if
you do X, and I do Y, we could end up in a 2-way".
Nick.
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
Just so you know, my "default" orders are the
"destroy Rum" option, specifically Sil-Gal,
Bud S Tri-Ser, Sev & Ukr S Bla-Rum, Pru->Sil.
If you'd rather do something else, please let
me know when you have a chance.
Thanks,
Nick.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>France is the only Power that has not occupied a
>Russian Home Center, so from a "storyline"
>perspective, the FR 2-way makes sense.
Goodness knows we have had our differences, but this wasn't one of
them. My move to StP was encouraged by you in order to bounce an expected
German move to StP. Remember? When Germany didn't make that move I
unexpectedly owned StP. I moved out, and it was understood and encouraged
that you should move in yourself as soon as you could afford to. This was
long before the first friction between us.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Master to all
My mistake; I saw the requests for the extension but failed to grant
them. Moves are due tomorrow night.
I've got six guests coming over Saturday for Dip (including Jim
Burgess, Melissa Nicholson, and Tim Goodwin) and will proudly be
showing off my Titleist sweatshirt.
Doug
masseyd@btv.ibm.com as Master set the deadline
for game 'titleist' to Fri Dec 28 2001 23:30:00 -0500.
Message from Russia to England
Allen,
> >France is the only Power that has not occupied a
> >Russian Home Center, so from a "storyline"
> >perspective, the FR 2-way makes sense.
>Goodness knows we have had our differences, but this wasn't one of
>them. My move to StP was encouraged by you in order to bounce an expected
>German move to StP. Remember? When Germany didn't make that move I
>unexpectedly owned StP. I moved out, and it was >understood and encouraged
>that you should move in yourself as soon
>as you could afford to. This was long before the first friction between
>us.
Yes, I (Eric) understand and remember that, but I was a
Theatre Major before switching to a CS/Theatre Double,
and finally graduating with a CS Major/Theatre Minor,
and I played years of role-playing games before I
started playing Avalon Hill war games, so "storyline",
and "world history" within the game play a bigger
role for me than they do for you. My attempts to
develop the European Economic Union, and my newspaper
articles were an outgrowth of that, and the "Russian
people" are somewhat jingoistically defensive of
"their country", so it would be easier for Czar
Nicholas II to convince the Russian people to accept
a peace treaty that split Europe between France and
Russia, than any other draw would be. It was never
a realistic tactical goal for me as a Diplomacy
player, but as a "story point" it made sense.
Eric.
Message from England to Russia
>Yes, I (Eric) understand and remember that, but I was a
>Theatre Major before switching to a CS/Theatre Double,
>and finally graduating with a CS Major/Theatre Minor,
I see this so often in my profession. We have many double majors --
mathematics plus theatre is indeed one example. I always suspect that the
other major is the student's true love and that mathematics is added with
employment in mind.
Do you ever act on the side, in local theatre for example, or does
Diplomacy provide a sufficient outlet?
Also, have you ever wondered which style is more effective in Diplomacy,
your theatrical style or Roger's straight-arrow style.
Also, did you see the movie L.A. Confidential with its straight-arrow
protagonist played by Guy Pearce? Great movie.
[Straight-Arrow was a boyhood hero of mine. That really dates me.]
Allen
Message from Russia to England
Allen,
>We have many double majors -- mathematics plus theatre is indeed one
>example. I always suspect that the other major is the student's true love
>and that mathematics is added [for] employment
Well, the standard line in our Theatre Dept. was,
"If you can be happy doing ANYTHING else, do it
instead of theatre. If you HAVE to do theatre,
keep in mind that the unemployment rate for actors
and stagehands in New York is 85%, so if you have
any skill anywhere else, take courses in it as well,
so that you can put food on the table while pursuing
your dream." In my case, I had always loved math
and science, but fell in love with theatre in
high school. My dream was to work for Industrial
Light & Magic doing computer-generated special
effects. 8-)
>Do you ever act on the side, in local theatre for
>example, or does Diplomacy provide a sufficient outlet?
I was actually more of a tech person, though I did
do some acting and directing. Time, money and
family responsibilities have kept me from getting
involved in community theatre, but I still think
about it from time to time.
>have you ever wondered which style is more effective
>in Diplomacy, your theatrical style or Roger's
>straight-arrow style.
*chuckle* Well, our JDPRs would suggest Roger's,
but I agree with Jim-Bob Burgess that Diplomacy is
not about playing the pieces, it's about playing
the people. I can't help bringing a certain
role-playing sensibility to the table since it
fits my Romantic nature, and gives me the
opportunity to "shape the debate" and "define the
terms" of negotiations and even "victory" in ways
that hopefully advance my cause.
>did you see the movie L.A. Confidential with its straight-arrow protagonist
>played by Guy Pearce?
No, it did sound interesting, but I haven't had
a chance to rent it or catch it on cable, yet.
Eric.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
Do you realize that if we cooperated we could guarantee bringing Italy down to
1 centers. OK, there is a trust issue, but it is possible.
If Italy were to move out of Anakra we could eliminate him completely :-) It
might also be 90 degrees F outside tomorrow too :-)
I suppose even if we do things the hard way, we will take him down to three
centers.
Hope things are going well.
--King Roger XIII
Message from Russia to France
Roger,
> Do you realize that if we cooperated we could guarantee bringing Italy
down to
> 1 centers. OK, there is a trust issue, but it is possible.
Yes, and if Ivy and Roberto listen to you, I could be eliminated,
eventually. 8-)
> I suppose even if we do things the hard way, we will take him down to
three
> centers.
Roberto remains quiet, so I don't yet know how we're going to move, but
three seems opptomistic.
> Hope things are going well.
Christmas was good, my wife bought me the Survivor PC game, (I'm a member
of the Diplomacy discussion group for the Survivor TV show on Yahoo) which
was sweet, (even though the game was voted the Worst Game of 2001 by a
prominant gaming magazine, and it wouldn't run on our PC), and I got Roller
Coaster Tycoon for the family (Best Game of 1999) which is a lot of fun, if
you
enjoy Sim City type games and/or amusement parks. Having the Fall turn
delayed this long has been frustrating, though.
Nick/Eric.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
>Yes, and if Ivy and Roberto listen to you, I could
>be eliminated, eventually. 8-)
Oh come on now. The chances of that are about 1 in
1,000,000. I was bored one day and pondered possible
moves with complete FEI cooperation. At best you would
be down to 8 or 9 units this turn. But the chances for
complete FEI cooperation are almost nil.
I also contemplated complete FR cooperation and what it
could do to Italy, take him down to 1 center. The odds
of that happening as just slightly above nil.
I do not see why having Italy at three centers is so
unlikely. He will end up with Munich, Ankara, and
Vienna. I do not see Ivy risking Berlin in order to give
him Kiel. I do not see your letting him have Rumania. I
do not plan to give him back Bulgaria. I can deny him
Constantinople. I do not see you giving him back
Sevastopol. I do not plan to help him take Trieste.
Where do you see him getting more than 3 centers?
--King Roger XIII
PS: My CD drive has been broken for a long time at home.
With my Acer, I cannot get a replacement without taking a
jigsaw to my computer cover (it had a small hole that
only allowed the door to fit through, with an unusual
shape). They do not make replacements. I have not been
able to find an external one that is read only. I can
either buy a R/W or buy a new computer. I have done
neither. So the bottom line to this long boring story is
that I cannot play any of my games.
Message from Russia to France
King Roger,
> >Yes, and if Ivy and Roberto listen to you, I could
> >be eliminated, eventually. 8-)
>Oh come on now. The chances of that are about 1 in
>1,000,000. I was bored one day and pondered possible
>moves with complete FEI cooperation.
I understand that, and I'm not that concerned about
EFI occurring, it's just that knowing you've proposed
EFI vs. R to EI makes me doubt the sincerity of your
FR vs. I offer. You are, quite rightly, doing
everything in your power to influence the course of
the next few years to favor France, and since my first
concern must be Russia's welfare, I have to take your
offer with a grain of salt.
>I do not see why having Italy at three centers is so
>unlikely. Where do you see him getting more than 3 centers?
Rum and Bul give you 15 Centers, and you have openings
in the West. As a result, it seems to me that I have
to convince Italy to work with me against you in the
Med, and that's likely to require him picking up a
Center or two, this Fall.
Nick.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
Evidently, Roberto is suggesting another way to destroy Rumania in which
you take it, possibly from Budapest. My advice is to humor Roberto and do
what ever it takes to get rid of that French army. Afterwards it will be
much easier to deal with Italy, because France's threat will be greatly
diminished. By "deal with" I include elmination, if that is your wish.
Am I correct in asserting that, after the loss of the Rumanian army, you
and I alone can control France, even if Italy begins to help him again?
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
>Roberto is suggesting another way to destroy Rumania
>in which you take it, possibly from Budapest.
Hopefully he'll suggest it to me... ;-)
>My advice is to humor Roberto and do
>what ever it takes to get rid of that French army.
I'm willing to do whatever Roberto asks as long as
it isn't obviously an attempt to gut me, and it
weakens France.
>Am I correct in asserting that, after the loss of
>the Rumanian army, you and I alone can control France, even if Italy begins
>to help him again?
If you order Nwg-NAO, Iri S ECh, Nth S Bel, and
some Army to Ruhr, (Mun-Ruh, Ber S Boh-Mun,
Kie-Ruh perhaps?), France remains stalemated in
the west. If France takes Ruhr, Belgium or NAO,
we have a problem, though.
Depending on how things play out in the Balkans,
France will end 1913 with 13 or 14 Centers, and
12 or 13 Units (he can afford to move Mar to Gas
or Pie, to open it for a build). Given the
whole-hearted support of three to five Italian
Units, France could still solo in 1914, so I
would recommend not even thinking about stabbing
Italy before 1915.
Nick.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
Just want to set the record straight since you do not
have all the information. I did not propose EFI to EI.
Ivy complained about his dealings with you. So, while we
were waiting with nothing happening for a a few days I
sent him (E only) a set of moves that could occur with
complete EIF cooperation. At the top of the letter I
stated that it was for fun and that it would never happen
in a million yeats. That is a far cry from offering EFI
cooperation. I acknowldged that Ivy did not trust me and
I did not trust Italy. I find it humorous that you or he
is trying to put such a sinister spin on it.
Similarly my letter about FR cooperation was merely a
could. I stated right away that it was not going to
happen because we would not trust each other. Your grain
of salt comment was already implied.
Give Italy centers if you wish, it really does not matter
to me. If fact, it might even be in my best interest.
Perhaps I may offer him a few too.
--King Roger XIII
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>If France takes Ruhr, Belgium or NAO,
>we have a problem, though.
I am quite confident that Roger will not even attempt any of those. He's
thinking down the road and is trying to line up friends for the future.
>I would recommend not even thinking about stabbing Italy before 1915.
That's interesting. Assuming that Rumania disappears, it is hard for me to
imagine anything you could do next year that is anti-France. With Rumania
gone, your only neighbors will be me and Italy.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to France
King Roger,
>Just want to set the record straight since you do not
>have all the information. I did not propose EFI to EI.
I actually suspected as much, and Ivy did not imply
that you had spoken to Italy about it. He did raise
it as a possibility, though, and as a worst-case
scenario, I accepted that you might have made a
similar offer to Roberto, since it's in your best
interest to sow distrust within EIR.
>Ivy complained about his dealings with you.
Yeah, I am a pain to work with, aren't I? 8-) I've
got to work on that...
>Give Italy centers if you wish, it really does not
>matter to me. Perhaps I may offer him a few too.
I do not wish to, but I have litte choice. I have
a set of moves available to me that would bring me
to 13 Centers, but, unfortunately, given your
superior relationship with England and Italy, that
would almost certainly result in a French Solo. As
much as I like you, and I do, I cannot afford to
assume that you will hold politely and wait for me
to establish a 17 Center stalemate line. I still
do not know what Italy wants to do, but you might
want to consider tapping, or even attacking Trieste.
In Friendship,
Nick/Eric.
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
> >I would recommend not even thinking about stabbing Italy before 1915.
>Assuming that Rumania disappears, it is hard for me to
>imagine anything you could do next year that is anti-France. With Rumania
>gone, your only neighbors will be me and Italy.
Paranoia is fine, but take a look at the map.
Bulgaria will become French this year, leaving Smy,
Con, Bul, and Gre, French in 1914. Sev-Arm, Ukr-Sev,
Bla & Ser S Rum-Bul in S1914M, followed by Arm-Smy,
Sev-Arm, Rum S Ser-Gre, Bla S Ank-Con in the Fall,
and we take the four remaining eastern French Centers.
Is that anti-French enough for you???
Nick.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
>superior relationship with England and Italy
With England, perhaps. But England will not hand me
the game just because he thinks that I am a swell
guy. He has a sense of how the game should be
played. I have to admire that, even if it cost me my
shot at the solo last year.
With Italy it may only be true because you and he are at
each other's throats so often. But he and I certainly do
not have a good relationship. He is trying to play us
off each other.
13 centers huh? I was figuring more like 11. You must
be counting on England and Italy to trust you and then
you would double cross them. I will go check the map and
see which you are counting:
Russia (4), Rum, Ser, Vie, Bud (8), Den, Nor, Swe (11)
Hol? (12), Ber? (13)
Wow! It seems pretty unlikely that Italy and England
would trust you that much. Also you are not likely to
hold all of Serbia, Budapest, and Trieste.
You do think big, I like that.
--King Roger XIII
Message from England to Russia
>Paranoia is fine, but take a look at the map.
>Bulgaria will become French this year, leaving Smy,
>Con, Bul, and Gre, French in 1914. Sev-Arm, Ukr-Sev,
>Bla & Ser S Rum-Bul in S1914M, followed by Arm-Smy,
>Sev-Arm, Rum S Ser-Gre, Bla S Ank-Con in the Fall,
>and we take the four remaining eastern French Centers.
>Is that anti-French enough for you???
Yeah, that's anti-French enough for me. It also raises many questions. We
could have some interesting discussions after tonight's move. Let's first
see if everyone does what they are expected to do.
Allen
Message from Italy to Russia
I've had a chance to study the map and your suggestions while awaiting my
jury call and I saw something intriguing.
The only sure fire way to annihilate the Rumanian army is as follows:
bud-rum
sev s bud-rum
ukr s bud-rum (or supp sev)
sil-gal
tri-ser
bla-bul/ec
ank-con
Anything else, and all France has to do is move Bul/sc to give him a
retreat.
In all honesty, I'm really not interested in moving my Black Sea fleet to
Rumania this turn.
Sorry for the rushed note but I got to go.
Roberto
Message from Russia to England
Allen,
> >If France takes Ruhr, Belgium or NAO,
> >we have a problem, though.
>I am quite confident that Roger will not even attempt any of those. He's
>thinking down the
>road and is trying to line up friends for the future.
*Eric walks down the hall at work, uses the
facilities, walks back up the hall, stops
to get a Diet Pepsi, and returns to his PC,
hoping to remain calm, and not insult you
as he replies to this.*
Roger Yonkoski (JDPR 1818, more than 300 points
higher than mine, and more than 100 points
higher than yours), is "trying to line up friends
for the future"??? What future? The one where
I stab you and Ken and make a Solo run? Please,
Allen, look at the map. I have 8 Centers, Roger
has 13. Even if you and Ken move as I recommend,
and I stab mercilessly, the best I can do is 13
Centers, and 11 Units. I know this because I
spent several days looking for the stab you were
so worried about. If I stab you and Ken, one, or
both of you will disband so as to favor Roger,
Ken is likely to actively support his solo bid.
The result? A French Solo. Why would I stab
you, if it means I lose the game?
Roger, however, (whose JDPR is based largely on
his ability to establish friendly relationships
with everyone on the board), plays up you fear of
a Russian Solo bid, and assures you that he
needs you strong to stop me, so he won't attack
NAO, Bel or Ruhr. Now, why would he do that?
Perhaps he does fear my solo potential, but
what's the most effective way to stop someone
else's Solo? To ally with the others on the
board to stalemate the coming solo attempt, or
to solo yourself before the other guy can?
Roger assures you that you can defend against
my "stab", and then takes Ruhr and/or Belgium,
and NAO, and solos easily. Think about it from
a NoPress standpoint. If I stab, France solos;
if you don't defend and France attacks, France
solos. If you defend, and France doesn't stab,
you stalemate France again, unless I stab, in
which case, France solos. I certainly don't
trust Roger to not take the Solo if it's
possible, and you shouldn't either, no matter
how honeyed his reassurances are.
Eric.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>*Eric walks down the hall at work, uses the
>facilities, walks back up the hall, stops
>to get a Diet Pepsi, and returns to his PC,
>hoping to remain calm, and not insult you
>as he replies to this.*
[7328 words omitted]
>Eric.
Wow, what did I say that brought this on? I was just making polite
conversation.
Moving on ... have you heard from Italy yet?
Allen/Ivy
Message from Russia to France
Roger,
> >superior relationship with England and Italy
>With England, perhaps. But England will not hand me
>the game just because he thinks that I am a swell
>guy. He has a sense of how the game should be
>played
No, he won't hand you the game, but I have to assume
that if I stabbed him, he'd disband his French Defense
first, and all those Units you have defending your
homeland would suddenly be free to take England,
Germany and the Lowlands.
>With Italy it may only be true because you and he are at
>each other's throats so often. But he and I certainly do
>not have a good relationship.
Yes, but again, if I stab him, I have to assume his
disbands would favor you.
>13 centers huh? I was figuring more like 11. You must
>be counting on England and Italy to trust you and then
>you would double cross them. I will go check the map and
>see which you are counting:
>Russia (4), Rum, Ser, Vie, Bud (8), Den, Nor, Swe (11)
>Hol? (12), Ber? (13)
>Wow! It seems pretty unlikely that Italy and England
>would trust you that much. Also you are not likely to
>hold all of Serbia, Budapest, and Trieste.
Yes, it was a best-case scenario where IE agreed
to the moves I suggested against you, and then I
stabbed mercilessly. I was trying to figure out
what panicked Ivy so much about my retreat to Den and
move to Nwy, so I looked for the best things could
turn out for me. I came up to a 13-13 tie between
us with you having the advantage in Units, and
western initiative. I didn't take it out to the
end, but it seemed likely that your gains in the
west plus some Italian help against me, would give
you the solo, so I rejected the plan.
>You do think big, I like that.
Hey, it's a big game! 8-)
Eric.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
>I came up to a 13-13 tie between
>us with you having the advantage in Units, and
>western initiative. I didn't take it out to the
>end, but it seemed likely that your gains in the
>west plus some Italian help against me, would give
>you the solo, so I rejected the plan.
Probably safest in the end. Some things that you did not
calculate are:
1) I am very unlikely to work with Italy (remember what
he did to me last year). He was very hot to punish you
and give me the solo, but in the end he used it against
me. I understand he changed his mind right at the end,
but I have to assume that no matter how convincing he may
sound, he will do it again. I *will not* make any moves
that count on working with his units. He may still help
me win by doing something independently that helps me.
But I will not count on support from his units or support
his units anywhere.
2) You have the initiative in the East. Wasn't the
stalemate line that you proposed having you take most of
the SE while I took most of the NW?
I think it best to wait until next year when Italy is
likely to be smaller and less of a wild card. There is
no rush, we are going into 2002 anyway, so it matters not
how much longer it takes.
--King Roger XIII
Message from Russia to England
Allen,
> >*Eric walks down the hall at work, uses the
> >facilities, walks back up the hall, stops
> >to get a Diet Pepsi, and returns to his PC,
> >hoping to remain calm, and not insult you
> >as he replies to this.*
[7329 words omitted]
>Wow, what did I say that brought this on? I was just making polite
>conversation.
No, you said that you were confident that Roger
would not attack the holes in your defensive line,
implying that you saw no need to defend them. I
felt I should make obvious what would happen if
you did not. Keep in mind that Roger earlier
convinced me that he just wanted to help me
eliminate Italy, and if you hadn't brought
Ken around to stopping Roger, Roger would have
soloed, then. I urge you to not make the
mistake of trusting Roger when he can see the
Solo.
>Moving on ... have you heard from Italy yet?
Yes, he does want Bud-Rum. I haven't had a chance
to look at the details, yet.
Eric.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from Italy to Russia in 'titleist':
>The only sure fire way to annihilate the Rumanian army is as follows:
>bud-rum
>sev s bud-rum
>ukr s bud-rum (or supp sev)
>sil-gal
>tri-ser
>bla-bul/ec
>ank-con
Well, Sev S Ukr-Rum, Bud S Tri-Ser also destroys Rum,
and prevents Rum-Ser from defending Serbia.
>Anything else, and all France has to do is move Bul/sc to give him a
>retreat.
True, but why would he move out of Bulgaria, when
that risks losing Con to Bla S Ank-Con?
>I'm really not interested in moving my Black Sea fleet to
>Rumania this turn.
That's fine. If we take Rum and Ser this year,
Ank and Bla will be able to retake Con next year.
>Sorry for the rushed note but I got to go.
Please respond to this if you get the chance.
Thanks,
Nick.
Message from England to Russia
Nick,
>Well, Sev S Ukr-Rum, Bud S Tri-Ser also destroys Rum,
>and prevents Rum-Ser from defending Serbia.
Is it my imagination, or do these moves leave only Ankara and Munich in
Italian hands? He loses Budapest, Sevastopol, and Rumania to you, while
losing Bulgaria to France. Right?
Even Budapest->Rumania saves only one additional center for Italy. What is
Italy up to? Is he on the up and up with you?
Ivy/Allen
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> Well, Sev S Ukr-Rum, Bud S Tri-Ser also destroys Rum,
> and prevents Rum-Ser from defending Serbia.
>
True, there are other combinations but I suggested Budapest since it would
allow me to potentially keep another center.
How about UKR supp SEV-RUM?
> True, but why would he move out of Bulgaria, when
> that risks losing Con to Bla S Ank-Con?
Two reasons, it's his only logical retreat if Rumania is dislodged and I
asked him to.
> Ank and Bla will be able to retake Con next year.
Not if I have to disband one or both of them.
Roberto
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
> >Well, Sev S Ukr-Rum, Bud S Tri-Ser also destroys Rum,
> >and prevents Rum-Ser from defending Serbia.
>do these moves leave only Ankara and Munich in
>Italian hands? He loses Budapest, Sevastopol, and Rumania to you, while
>losing Bulgaria to France. Right?
Yes, but he gains Vie from me, and potentially Tri as
well, if he orders Vie-Tri, Boh-Vie, and doesn't get
bounced by Ven/Tyl.
>What is Italy up to? Is he on the up and up with you?
*shrug* You'd be a better judge of that than I am.
Realistically, if he gains Tri and Vie, losing a Center
is probably a good deal for him. Tri, Vie, and Mun take
Tyl, and threaten Venice in 1914. Plus, I'm not sure
that he has any way to avoid disbanding a Unit or two,
at this point, so he may have accepted that as well.
Nick.
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
> > Well, Sev S Ukr-Rum, Bud S Tri-Ser also destroys Rum,
> > and prevents Rum-Ser from defending Serbia.
>True, there are other combinations but I suggested Budapest since it would
>allow me to potentially keep another center.
Fair enough. I'm inclined to be sure of Serbia, but
I understand your perspective.
>How about UKR supp SEV-RUM?
No, given the choice between Sev and Bud, it makes
more sense for me to take Rum from Bud. Next Spring
Sev can move to Arm, and threaten Smy. I'll change
to Bud-Rum with this letter. Please let me know if
you change your mind.
> > True, but why would he move out of Bulgaria, when
> > that risks losing Con to Bla S Ank-Con?
>it's his only logical retreat if Rumania is dislodged and I
>asked him to.
If you think he's actually going to retreat, then
Bla S Ank-Con or Ank S Bla-Con makes much more sense
than Bla-Bul, I think. We take Con, Rum, and Ser from
France, and force Con and Rum to retreat, and you have
a Fleet adjacent to Aeg.
Nick.
Message from Russia to France
Roger,
> 1) I am very unlikely to work with Italy (remember what
> he did to me last year). He may still help me win by doing
> something independently that helps me, but I will not count
> on support from his units or support his units anywhere.
I was thinking more along the lines that EI would turn and
attack me, and just not make a serious effort to stop you
from soloing Given your Unit advantage, and Convoy
potential, that would give you a greater growth rate and the
game.
> 2) You have the initiative in the East. Wasn't the
> stalemate line that you proposed having you take most of
> the SE while I took most of the NW?
Yes, but if I'm facing harrassing attacks from England in the
North, and Italy in the South, my eastern advantage would
be cancelled out.
Nick.
Message from France to Russia
Nick:
I understand your concerns. That is why I fully expect you to not be
too aggressive this season. However, you need not give away the farm.
It is your call really.
Good luck,
In peace,
--King Roger XIII
Message from Russia to England
Ivy,
Are you going to cover Ruhr and NAO, and defend Belgium? Given
Sil-Gal, Pru-Sil, Bel S Kie-Ruh, Ber-Kie has potential, I think.
Nick.
England: Army Belgium → Ruhr
England: Army Berlin → Kiel (*bounce*)
England: Fleet English Channel HOLD
England: Fleet Irish Sea SUPPORT Fleet English Channel
England: Army Kiel → Holland
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet Norwegian Sea → Norway
England: Fleet Norwegian Sea → Norway
France: Fleet Brest → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) SUPPORT Fleet Constantinople
France: Army Burgundy SUPPORT Italian Army Munich (*void*)
France: Fleet Constantinople SUPPORT Fleet Bulgaria (south coast)
France: Army Marseilles → Piedmont
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Western Mediterranean
France: Army Paris → Brest (*bounce*)
France: Army Picardy → Brest (*bounce*)
France: Army Rumania → Serbia (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) SUPPORT Fleet Brest → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Army Tyrolia → Trieste
France: Army Venice SUPPORT Army Tyrolia → Trieste
France: Fleet Western Mediterranean → Tunis
Italy: Fleet Ankara → Armenia
Italy: Fleet Black Sea → Sevastopol (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Bohemia → Vienna (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Munich → Kiel (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Vienna → Budapest (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Trieste → Serbia (*cut*)
Russia: Fleet Denmark → Sweden
Russia: Army Norway → Finland
Russia: Army Prussia → Silesia
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Ukraine → Rumania (*cut*)
Russia: Army Silesia → Galicia
Russia: Army Trieste → Serbia (*bounce, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Ukraine → Rumania (*bounce*)
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