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Message from Italy to England
Interesting, very interesting.
Message from Master to all
No retreats; F1913M due the evening after Christmas. Have a happy
and safe holiday, everyone!
Doug
masseyd@btv.ibm.com as Master set the deadline
for game 'titleist' to Wed Dec 26 2001 23:30:00 -0500.
Grace period deadline advanced to Mon Dec 31 2001 23:30:00 -0500.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>Interesting, very interesting.
Nick has barely begun to explore ways to lose. I anticipated this
somewhat, but once again France has great opportunities.
Ivy/Allen
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
What is your take on the recent moves?
Thanks for answering about the puppy. I appreciate it. yes it was an
old note.
sorry for the short note.
--King Roger XIII
Message from Italy to France
>
> What is your take on the recent moves?
>
Either you and Nick are planning a 2-way or Nick is looking for a way to
lose.
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
The sum of the discussion between Nick and I since the adjustments can
be summed up in the following line:
" "
I got the note that he was sick and a previous note that he was busy and
would write me some time. He never did. He did know my moves though.
Did he know yours?
I am wondering if you and he are now allied. He did betray Ivy which is
a shame after all Ivy did to prevent him from losing last year.
He may be planning a two-way with me, but he neglected to tell me about
it. I think he may believe that he can win? I offered a friendly
three-way no response. I offered a four-way (through Ivy), denied.
Perhaps my return may bring enlightenment. I had 3 hours sleep last
night and am exhausted from being on the go since 10:00 PM last night.
Of course when I return I will have just driven through the night.
Lucidity will probably not be an adjective describing myself :-)
This time, sorry for the long note. I am a bit delirious :-)
--King Roger XIII
PS: Was that Bud/Vie things expected?
Message from Italy to France
>
> The sum of the discussion between Nick and I since the adjustments can
> be summed up in the following line:
> " "
>
The sum of discussion between Italy and Nick can be summed up as follows:
"I don't believe France would offer such a draw [in response to Ivy
detailing your proposal] and will move accordingly to take French centers in
Turkey and the Balkans."
I had heard nothing from him until late this morning.
>
> Did he know yours?
>
No, except see below.
> I am wondering if you and he are now allied.
Never in a million years.
> He did betray Ivy which is
> a shame after all Ivy did to prevent him from losing last year.
>
He will pay dearly for that mistake if indeed it is true.
>
> I think he may believe that he can win?
>
This is probably a fair assessment. I would hate for Italian elimination to
end with that result though. I hope you share a similar view.
> I offered a friendly
> three-way no response. I offered a four-way (through Ivy), denied.
>
Russia indeed denied this offer.
>
> PS: Was that Bud/Vie things expected?
>
Yes. It was my suggestion. I figured I would lose Budapest to him (or you)
anyway and thought at least Vienna gets me a tad closer to my other armies.
I had expected you to try for Trieste.
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Tri -> vie
Sil -> boh
Ukr -> Rum s Sev
Thank you for playing Italy. Welcome to the world of superpowers,
Russia.
You have to admire his going form extinction to a solo threat. I am
just not sure what can be done about it. Maybe it will be more clear
upon my return.
--King Roger XIII
I am gone for 3-4 days now.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Roberto, and Ivy,
Sil-Gal, Bud S Tri-Ser, Ukr S Bla-Rum would destroy
the French Army in Rum. If we combined that with
Vie-Tri, Boh-Vie, you wouldn't have to disband. I
guess the other possibility would be Tri S Bud-Ser,
Sev-Arm, Ukr-Gal(?), Ank S Bla-Con. That would not
destroy the French Army but would still leave you
at 5 or 6 Centers, and it would allow Kie S Mun-Ruh,
Sil S Boh-Mun to shore up the western defenses. We
have time to ponder and dicuss options, but I wanted
to offer my initial thoughts for discussion.
Nick.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
Nick and I appear to be having a private war of words. Sound
familiar? Perhaps you care to mediate? 8-) 8-)
His suggested moves don't seem to be crazy, but I have not analyzed whether
or not there is a way for him to take advantage of you if you do make those
moves. As for me, I need to see Russia pull back from Norway, Denmark, and
Silesia.
What are my odds?
Ivy
Message from Italy to England and Russia
> We have time to ponder and dicuss options, but I
> wanted to offer my initial thoughts for discussion.
>
Still reviewing Nick's suggestions. At first glance, they look like a good
starting point.
I am curious about the following however:
> Movement results for Spring of 1913. (titleist.050)
>
> England: Army Ruhr -> Kiel.
> Russia: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
> Russia: Army St Petersburg -> Norway.
Is there some kind of cooperation going on here that I was unaware of. Mind
you, I don't need to know how you want to deal with your northern units, but
were all of these moves expected? If the status quo remains thru the fall,
Ivy has to disband and I don't really see a viable English disband if we
expect to hold back France in the west.
Roberto
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Roberto,
>Still reviewing Nick's suggestions. At first glance, they look like a good
>starting point.
>
>I am curious about the following however:
>
> > England: Army Ruhr -> Kiel.
> > Russia: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
> > Russia: Army St Petersburg -> Norway.
>
>Is there some kind of cooperation going on here that I was unaware of.
No cooperation. None of these moves were ever discussed in advance. I was
expecting a stab. I moved Ruhr->Kiel and Nao-Nwg, because I believed that
Nick was going to pull some funny stuff. Both moves were harmless if Nick
made selfless moves. Nick reassures me that there was no stab. His moves,
including Warsaw->Silesia, which threatens Berlin, were described as
"forward defense" -- his words.
Ok. So there was no stab, but Nick does find himself in two of my supply
centers, Norway and Denmark, and is accidentally bearing down on
Berlin. Perhaps, good Roberto, you can persuade him to move back again,
after which I will do my best to restore the defense line against France.
I too think he has made some interesting suggestions for moves.
Ivy
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
>I am curious about the following however:
> > Movement results for Spring of 1913. (titleist.050)
> >
> > England: Army Ruhr -> Kiel.
> > Russia: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
> > Russia: Army St Petersburg -> Norway.
>Is there some kind of cooperation going on here that I was unaware of.
>Mind you, I don't need to know how you want to deal with your northern
>units, but
>were all of these moves expected? If the status quo remains thru the fall,
>Ivy has to disband and I don't really see a viable English disband if we
>expect to
>hold back France in the west.
Ivy was concerned about my silence, and told me that
he was submitting "harmless" defensive moves as a
precaution. I assumed that meant Nth-Nwy, and since
I did not want him adjacent to StP, I ordered StP-Nwy
to bounce it. Kie-Den was just pulling back on the
way to Swe. Ivy claims Ruh-Kie was supposed to bounce
off F Kiel (and cut Kiel S Pru-Ber, though he didn't
mention that part. 8-) This is one of those examples
of why communication is so important. It looks like
a full out war, when neither of us wanted that. We
are discussing ways to disengage. Care to mediate,
Roberto? ;^}
Nick.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from England to Italy and Russia in 'titleist':
>Nick reassures me that there was no stab. His moves,
>including Warsaw->Silesia, which threatens Berlin,
>were described as "forward defense" -- his words.
Again, a matter of perspective, the move to Sil was
intended to allow Sil S Mun, and free up Boh and Ber
to move to Tyl and Kie. I'm sorry that I didn't have
time to explain my thought processes to you both.
Nick.
Message from Italy to Master
>
> England said:
> >Perhaps you care to mediate? 8-) 8-)
>
> Russia said:
> >Care to mediate, Roberto? ;^}
>
> I had a good long laugh over that.
>
Wait until you see how I mediate the whole mess. Then you'll really be
laughing. :)
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Roberto, Nick,
Since I am quite upset, and since Roger is out of town anyway, I am going
to take a couple of days to calm down. If Roberto has anything to say, I
should be able to respond to him.
Talk won't help much in situations like this anyway. Unilateral moves got
us into the situation and unilateral moves will extract us. It shouldn't
be hard.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Ivy, and Roberto,
Ivy Wrote >
>Since I am quite upset, I am going to take a couple
>of days to calm down. If Roberto has anything to say, I should be able to
>respond to him.
Ok, hopefully when you've calmed down you can
consider my proposed solution with an open mind.
I'm available to discuss options with Roberto,
if he'd care to mediate.
Nick.
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
Here is my proposal for the North:
---------------Sent to England------------------------
Ivy > I am requesting moves that gain me a unit this
Ivy > year to compensate for your growath in the south
Kie HOLD (or S Mun-Ruh, Sil S Boh-Mun), Nth S Bel,
Nwg-NAO, Den-Swe, Swe-Fin, does just that without
completely wrecking our line against France.
------------------End Copy--------------------------
It seems workable and effective to me. If you order
Boh-Vie, we could lose ECh and Ruh, but probably
won't lose both. I don't see a better option.
Please let me know what you think.
Nick.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>Since I am quite upset ...
That is literally false. I just don't feel like listening to his blabber
for a few days.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Italy to England and Russia
Gentlemen,
I'm available to mediate, but I need some time to think. I don't want to
make any rash comments without exploring all sides and options. I don't
want to add fuel to the fire. Feel free to send more information publicly
or privately that you feel would help me in the mediation process.
I have been called to jury duty the week of Dec. 26th so I may ask that the
deadline be pushed back if necessary.
Roberto
Message from Italy to England
> Movement results for Fall of 1912.
> Russia: Army Livonia -> Prussia.
>
> Movement results for Spring of 1913. (titleist.050)
> Russia: Army Prussia SUPPORT Army Warsaw -> Silesia.
> Russia: Army Warsaw -> Silesia.
>
> Message from Russia to Italy and England in 'titleist':
>
> [snip] and since I did not want him adjacent to StP, [snip]
>
This is what rubs Roberto the wrong way about Nick. He doesn't want you
anywhere near the centers he owns but he doesn't see any problem if he moves
next to one of your centers and is even willing to use force to get there.
> Message from Russia to England and Italy in 'titleist':
>
> [snip] the move to Sil was intended to allow Sil S Mun,
> and free up Boh and Ber to move to Tyl and Kie. [snip]
>
Hmmm. Prussia-Silesia would have done the trick, no?
----------------------
I have no doubts his plan is/was to stay in NOR, DEN, SEV and take a shot at
BER, RUM, SER to become the dominant power. Perhaps even an unstoppable
power. Note his suggested southern moves were an attempt to get rid of the
French RUM army thus allowing him even more freedom for his growing armies.
The boy needs to be taught a lesson and I think I know just the two who can
teach him a lesson.
I think we ought to remain calm, accept his suggestions with perhaps slight
alteration so that it doesn't look like we're going on blind faith, and then
see how he reacts when we take HOL,NOR,VIE,TRI from him and he has to
disband.
France and I actually had a cordial conversation before he left town. I
think there is the possibility of mutual self-interest in stopping Russian
growth in the southeast so it's not out of the question that I couldn't
broker a deal with him again. In all honesty, if I'm to lose this
game/tournament, I'd much prefer losing to France than to Russia.
Roberto
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
Thanks for your offer to help. I'm not sure that
there's anything else I send you that would help
you understand the situation I find myself in with
Ivy, since I'm not sure I understand it myself, 8-)
but I am available to answer any questions you
might have.
On one level, I suppose I can understand Ivy's
concern about my silence, but going silent before
a stab is such a bush-league tactic that I'm
surprised, and a bit insulted, that Ivy would
think I was using it. I also don't see why Ivy
thinks I would stab, or have stabbed. Stabbing
England when I only have one Fleet just strikes
me as pointless. Yes, I can make him angry, and
possibly give France renewed hope of a solo,
but what does it get me beyond a Center or two?
It almost makes me wonder if Ivy was planning
to stab me, but I suspect that's just paranoia.
Once again, let me know if you have any questions.
Nick.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>I have no doubts his plan is/was to stay in NOR, DEN, SEV and take a shot at
>BER, RUM, SER to become the dominant power.
I think so.
>France and I actually had a cordial conversation before he left town.
Ditto. Roger is so much smoother than Nick. He has gotten himself into a
great position while maintaining respect and without making permanent enemies.
> In all honesty, if I'm to lose this game/tournament, I'd much prefer
> losing to France than to Russia.
Absolutely. If there is to be a solo, then let it be France. That's easy
to agree to.
Here's the hard part -- making sure there is no solo at all. Therefore,
when it comes to teaching the boy a lesson, I think we need to be very
careful. He is so temperamental that, if we come down too hard on him, he
could throw the game to France himself.
France's letter to me played up the possibility that now Russia could be
the solo threat. Actually, France overstated the immediate danger a bit,
but that's to be expected. The point of my response, which France probably
has not read yet, was that France should not now try to exploit possible
weakness at Ruhr, Belgium, and the ocean frontier if he needs me to fend
off Russia.
>Note his suggested southern moves were an attempt to get rid of the
>French RUM army thus allowing him even more freedom for his growing armies.
Yes, but some of Russia's proposed moves appeal to me a bit. I like moves
that deepen conflict between Russia and France, because each of them will
then need you and me more.
For example, Russia suggested
>Sil-Gal, Bud S Tri-Ser, Ukr S Bla-Rum would destroy
>the French Army in Rum. If we combined that with
>Vie-Tri, Boh-Vie, you wouldn't have to disband.
Notice, however, that Sevastopol is not mentioned in the above. I think
Russia is taking it, period.
The moves would give Sevastopol and Serbia to Russia and give Rumania to
you. If we can quietly ask France to take Trieste, then I think Russia
does not gain too much, and we may be able to count on French help in the
future. At the same time, the destruction of the French army in Rumania
leaves France weaker from an offensive (read "solo") point of view.
>I think we ought to remain calm, accept his suggestions with perhaps slight
>alteration so that it doesn't look like we're going on blind faith, and then
>see how he reacts when we take HOL,NOR,VIE,TRI from him and he has to
>disband.
Somehow, I hope that Nick feels chastened, but not provoked to
self-destructive retribution. I don't think I want him to disband. Right
now, I am leaning toward Belgium->Holland, and NorthSea supp Kiel->Denmark
with perhaps mutual support between Berlin and Munich.
Ivy
Message from Russia to England, France, and Italy
Gentlemen,
I'm taking tomorrow (12/21) off from work, in order to
do my Christmas shopping, (and to see Lord of the Rings),
and then I am taking my son to see Jimmy Neutron, Boy
Genius, on Saturday, and will let him pick out a gift
for his mother. The Governor has given State Employees
Monday, Christmas Eve, off, and of course, Christmas is
a holiday, as well, so I won't be back in the office
until the 26th. I will check mail most, if not all of
those days, and will respond, if anyone writes, but my
availability will be somewhat more limited than it
usually is. If I don't hear from you before then, I
hope that those of you who celebrate Christmas have a
very merry one.
Eric.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Ivy and Roberto,
> Message from England to Russia in 'titleist':
(I'm including Italy in this reply in hopes that he can moderate.)
> Giving you the benefit of the doubt, the best I can come up with is that
> your last moves were, shall we say, deliberately flexible. Consistent
with
> goals of stopping France, or eliminating Italy, or going for glory.
I was sick, I was late, I didn't analyze my moves beyond immediate tactical
goals, (defending my centers, opening my Home Centers for builds, moving
toward the front). I didn't stop to think, "What if Ivy DOESN'T order Nth
to Nwy? How will he react to StP-Nwy?" If I stab you, France Solos, if
I attack Italy instead of France, France wins tournament in a walk, if I
take
French Centers in the Med, I have a chance to have the most Centers in the
Draw, and the tournament victory. It seems like an obvious choice to me.
> You know that I have voted twice for draw. This was based on no
> chance for solo plus the apparent achievement of the only reasonable
> goal open to me, stopping France.
>
> Since the game continues, my only wish in continuing our partnership is
> that we stay even. That means one of us is no more than one unit ahead
> of the other. That's why your last moves were so scary to me. You
> know, internally, what your goals are. If they include numerical
> superiority over me, then it is certain that we will be at war. And I
can't
> maintain my standoff with France if I have to fight you. That became
> clear with my last moves.
If I fight you, France Solos, why would I want that? I understand your
desire to stay even, but as Italy and I take Med Centers from France, he'll
be forced to disband, and while he might disband Med Units, and let Italy
back into his Home Centers, it's also possible that he could disband in the
west, giving you growth opportunities greater than or equal to my own, so
I am hesitant to give you all of my northern Centers at a pace of your
choosing. Kie-Den was intended as a signal that I was ceding Kiel, and
Holland to you; StP-Nwy was intended to defend StP and Swe until we
know where France will disband.
> The upcoming moves will be critical in that they will reveal to all just
> what you have in mind. I have to assume that you are staying in
> Sevastopol. It's hard to believe otherwise. Going into this year you
> had 8 to my 7. If collectively we are to have 16 at the end of the year
> then I want it to be 8 to 8. More likely it might be 9 to 8, since you
> have so many opportunities.
I laid out my ideas for moves to you both. I'm willing to let Italy choose
moves for the Alliance, as you did last year.
> I don't expect you to tell me your moves. It wouldn't do any good
> anyway. I wish to see your moves, not hear about them. I will say
> that I do like the plan of destroying the French army in Rumania.
I'm comfortable with either option I laid out, or some variation on them.
> Nor will I be able to tell you my moves. Indeed, I don't know what
> they will be myself, and I don't have the time or stomach for debate.
> I just know that we have to undo the mess from the spring, and I
> probably cannot afford to be completely passive about it.
It seems to me that our first goal still has to be stopping the French Solo.
He's still at 13 Centers, and he's still Roger Yonkoski. Nwy-Fin,
Den-Swe, leaves you up a Center as long as you order Nth S Bel. I
urge you to discuss this with Roberto, and accept his advice.
In Alliance,
and Friendship,
Happy Holidays,
Nick/Eric.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I believe that we can manage to keep you a viable part of prevent Russia
from running amok. I ask you to do the following:
* order a unit to Armenia
* order Vienna to Budapest
The first will prevent Russia from slipping an army into Turkey and
causing all sorts of problems. I will leave Ankara alone in order to
keep that Fleet in Armenia.
The second is required in order to prevent my army in Rumania from
getting nuked (Tri -> Ser s by Bud, Ukr -> Rum s by Sev).
I can offer you the following:
I will leave Ankara alone. I will help support Munich. I will not take
advantage of Ivy's need to defend against Russia by attacking him. As
long as you are helping me against Russia, I will leave Ivy alone.
>From what Ivy has told me, Russia did take Norway and Denmark without
permission. Are you getting the same story?
Let me know what you think.
Have a very Merry Christmas (if you celebrate it)!
--King Roger XIII
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
Roger gives me assurances that he will not attack Bulgaria or Munich or try
to slip fleets into my backsides. I believe him. That is, I believe that
he will not do it on this particular this turn.
He went on to say, "On two or three occasions Russia has suggested a
two-way draw. I have always said that it was impractical or that I was
happy with the three-way. I guess that he is taking matters into his own
hands. I may have to eventually consider it. I think that ultimately the
game would end in a solo by one of us. You will be the deciding factor in
that."
Then more: "I asked Roberto for two things: a unit in Armenia and to order
Vienna to Budapest. Both of these are important to prevent Russia from
running
all over the Balkans and Turkey. The Balkans, Turkey, Austria, Russia,
and Scandinavia makes 17."
But Russia is far from 17. Just because he has eight, and eight plus nine
equals 17, does not mean that Russia is on the brink of victory.
Nevertheless, Roger wants me to join with him in convincing you to work
against Russia.
With Roger at 13 and Nick at 8, I still believe that France is by far the
more dangerous of the two. That he is the more likeable of the two only
matters if and when you and I have to throw in the towel.
Where does this leave us? Here are some possible moves for me:
Nwg hold
Nth supp Bel
Kiel->Holland
Berlin->Kiel
Irish supp Channel
Channel supp Belgium
Belgium holds
France surely wants you to cut Budapest so he can take Trieste. I don't
mind so much if he takes Trieste, if he loses that dangerous army in
Rumania at the same time. What do you think would France's attitude toward
us would be if that happened?
I know that you are in a bind. I am not much better off. Right now I
think we have the best chance if France and Russia lose all trust in each
other.
I should be able to check e-mail fairly frequently through Wednesday, when
the moves are due. So it doesn't matter when you get back to me, even at
the last minute.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Gentlemen,
Well, we have eighteen hours. Is there any chance we
can agree to keep France from winning one more time?
Nick.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
The deadline is tonight. Have you given some thought to
what you are going to do? I am asking for Vie -> Bud and
a unit in Armenia (Ank -> Arm or Bls -> Arm).
I realize that you could end up with other units by
attacking my positions. But in the end that would make
Russia the largest power on the board and a serious solo
threat. I am offering you a viable spot in the line
against him and a chance to make certain that he does not
benefit from his betrayal of Ivy and yourself..
Let me know what you are thinking.
--King Roger XIII
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Nick, Roberto,
I hope you both have been enjoying the season.
> Is there any chance we can agree to keep France from winning one more time?
France's threat is not nearly so great as it was just one year ago. The
greatest likelihood of a French victory would present itself if Nick's
moves confirmed selfish ambition on his part, and Roberto and I were placed
in the position of having to choose a winner. The game could end quickly
if that happened.
In spite of the very serious differences that Nick and I are having, I
still like his strategy of destroying the French army in Rumania. That
reduces France's chances even more.
I am going to write to Roberto privately, and I assume Nick will do the
same. I hope that Roberto and I can agree on England's moves and that the
two of you can agree on moves for Russia.
Ivy/Allen
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
Earlier I wrote:
>Here are some possible moves for me:
>
>Nwg hold
>Nth supp Bel
>Kiel->Holland
>Berlin->Kiel
>Irish supp Channel
>Channel supp Belgium
>Belgium holds
I have another set of moves that I now prefer.
Nth supp Nwg->Norway
Berlin holds
Kiel->Holland
Irish supp Channel
Channel supp Belgium
Belgium holds
This leaves Kiel in Russian hands, so that I do not take two Russian
centers if he actually vacates Norway and Denmark voluntarily. If I do net
one unit from Russia by this (Holland), then I can build a fleet in
Liverpool.
If Russia is madly aggressive and tries to hold his ground in Norway and
Denmark and attack Berlin at the same time, then Berlin can retreat to Kiel
and take it. In the meantime I have Norway.
Allen/Ivy
Message from Russia to England and Italy
Ivy, and Roberto,
Ivy Wrote >
>France's threat is not nearly so great as it was The greatest likelihood of
>a French victory would
>present itself if Nick's moves confirmed selfish
>ambition on his part, and Roberto and I were placed in the position of
>having to choose a winner. The game could end quickly
I tire of explaining why I moved as I did this Spring,
so I'll just refer you to my earlier letters. 8-) Yes,
France will win quickly if you and Roberto attack me,
but I fear that you underestimate his very real
chances if you fail to cover Ruhr and NAO this Fall,
in an attempt to hedge your bets. The best we can
hope for in the east is to destroy FA Rum, and to
take Ser in trade for Bul, and hope he doesn't
support himself into Tri. With your retreat from
Ruhr, he can open Mar for a build, and if he moves
into Ruhr and/or NAO, all of those Units currently
tied down defending France will be able to go on
the attack, and roll over England, the Lowlands,
and western Germany, giving him the victory.
>I am going to write to Roberto privately, and I assume
>Nick will do the same. I hope that Roberto and I can
>agree on England's moves and that the two of you can
>agree on moves for Russia.
I'm basically waiting for Roberto to get back to me.
I'm willing to go with a variation of either set of
moves I offered earlier, and have no strong feeling
in favor of either, but it is important for Roberto
and I to be on the same page. I've ordered Nwy-Fin,
Den-Swe, and am waiting for instructions in the East.
Nick.
Message from Italy to Master, England, France, and Russia
Gentlemen,
The holiday season was busier for me than expected - more travel and
visiting than anticipated. Now, a sore throat is travelling thru the family
and I don't feel so hot. To boot, I got called into jury duty.
Although I hate to ask for a deadline extension, I think I need one. Doug,
can you extend the deadline to Friday (hopefully that will be enough time).
Italy
Message from France to England, Italy, and Russia
Ken:
>Now, a sore throat is travelling thru the family
>and I don't feel so hot. To boot, I got called into
>jury duty.
If the sore throat etc. gets you out of Jury duty, it
just might be worth it :-) Take care of yourself and
your public duty. The game can wait.
Roger
Message from Russia to Master, England, France, and Italy
>Message from France to Italy, England and Russia in 'titleist':
>If the sore throat etc. gets you out of Jury duty, it
>just might be worth it :-) Take care of yourself and
>your public duty. The game can wait.
But, I was planning on soloing by New Year's Eve!
(*Did I just say that out-loud?* ;^}
Seriously though, Ken, take the time you need.
It's bad enough that this Spring's moves were
the result of rushed, under-the-weather
thinking, without doing the same this Fall.
Happy Kwanzaa/Boxing Day, Everyone,
Eric.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
I'm a little surprised that the deadline was not extended. It is possible
that Doug was out of town and did not get your appeal, or perhaps he felt
that the late period was sufficient to cover your needs. It is not the
same though, since one is not supposed to diplome during a late period
without having submitted moves. That makes this situation a little difficult.
I've submitted the moves that I most recently suggested so that my messages
to you and Russia are "legal." In case you feel that you must issue moves
without additional communication because we are in a late period, I have
taken the precaution of recommending to Russia the moves he suggested
earlier, "Sil-Gal, Bud S Tri-Ser, Ukr S Bla-Rum [which] would destroy
the French Army in Rum." For your other moves, I am not sure which is
best. Bohemia Supp Munich? Bohemia supp Vienna? Actually I believe France
when he says he will not attack Munich, and I really doubt that Vienna is
in any trouble. France has never promised to stay out of Ruhr though, so
even Bohemia->Munich->Ruhr has some merit. Tough choice.
France hints that he will attack me if you do not help him against
Russia. Please don't give in to that threat on my behalf. I can think of
nothing worse for me, for us actually, than for France once again to be at
the doorstep of victory. I know I am repeating myself here, but I think
you and I are best off if there is Russia/French conflict. France has been
in a drawish mood before, and I am hoping he will be that way again if he
loses his Rumanian army.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
Just so you know, my "default" orders are the
"destroy Rum" option, specifically Sil-Gal,
Bud S Tri-Ser, Sev & Ukr S Bla-Rum, Pru->Sil.
If you'd rather do something else, please let
me know when you have a chance.
Thanks,
Nick.
Message from Master to all
My mistake; I saw the requests for the extension but failed to grant
them. Moves are due tomorrow night.
I've got six guests coming over Saturday for Dip (including Jim
Burgess, Melissa Nicholson, and Tim Goodwin) and will proudly be
showing off my Titleist sweatshirt.
Doug
masseyd@btv.ibm.com as Master set the deadline
for game 'titleist' to Fri Dec 28 2001 23:30:00 -0500.
Message from Italy to France
I have a moment tonight and a question that has been bugging me but I just
couldn't figure out what it was until today.
> * order Vienna to Budapest
>
> The second is required in order to prevent my army in Rumania from
> getting nuked (Tri -> Ser s by Bud, Ukr -> Rum s by Sev).
How does Vie-Bud prevent Rum from getting nuked? The scenario you provide
doesn't even have Budapest affecting Rumania. From what I can tell, the
only way to prevent Rumania from getting nuked is to either give it a
retreat - namely Bulgaria - or support it to Sevastopol.
Ivy and Nick have both expressed a desire to have me help 'nuke' Rumania.
Personally, I'd rather not see that happen so I don't anticipate that I will
participate. However, there's not a whole lot that can be done to stop
(Bud->Rum supp by Ukr/Sev, Sil->Gal, Tri->Ser).
I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on the above analysis.
As it stands, I'm down 3 units if nothing changes so I'm not in the greatest
of positions to make demands but I am looking for a way to keep as many of
my centers as possible or perhaps exchange them for others. If you have any
ideas, I'm all ears.
> From what Ivy has told me, Russia did take Norway and Denmark without
> permission. Are you getting the same story?
Yes, that is the story I have been hearing from Ivy.
Roberto
Message from Italy to England
>
> I have another set of moves that I now prefer.
>
> Nth supp Nwg->Norway
> Berlin holds
> Kiel->Holland
> Irish supp Channel
> Channel supp Belgium
> Belgium holds
>
Okay, I like these as well.
I still need to talk with Nick. For what it's worth, I'm not too keen on
his default orders. A lone fleet in Rumania surrounded by, get this, five
Russian armies is not my idea of funsville. I can think of better things to
do with my time.
To increase Russa-Franco conflict I think it would be best if Nick took
Rumania himself. What can be done to stop Ukr/Sev supp Bud->Rum? Not much
and I don't even have to lift a finger. Throw in Bla->Bul and Ank->Con and
Rumania is annihilated.
Let me know if your default orders change.
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I am worried about the following:
Tri -> Ser s by Bud
Ukr -> Rum s by Sev
Rum -> Ser s by Bul (bounce, dislodged)
Vie -> Bud breaks that support and allows
Rum -> Ser s by Bul to succeed.
It also allows Ven -> Tri to succeed (if you do not deny
it).
I realize that you really have no desire to see me
succeed. All I have to offer is my promise not to attack
Ivy and the chance to see Nick suffer (or succeed less I
guess). I am hoping that your dislike for him is greater
than your dislike for me.
I know that it is not much to offer. After last fall I am
also very gunshy about trusting you, especially since Ivy
wants you to do something contrary to what I would like
you to do. So even the support for Rum -> Ser may not
occur as I may feel that I have to support Bul to hold.
I was not expecting to be in Rumania. Nick knew that I
was attacking it (to break support to Bul) and probably
wanted me there so he could destroy my army. He has some
serious goals of getting all of Austria, the Balkans, and
Turkey. I think that he will achieve it because
cooperation between you and I will be iffy and Ivy does
not want me to grow.
Sorry for the long note, but I wanted to give you an
honest feel for what I am thinking.
--King Roger XIII
PS: I hope that Jury duty went well, your getting
selected or not selected as you wanted. I always half
hoped that I would get selected, but my name was never
drawn from the pool to go to the next step.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>To increase Russa-Franco conflict I think it would be best if Nick took
>Rumania himself. What can be done to stop Ukr/Sev supp Bud->Rum? Not much
>and I don't even have to lift a finger. Throw in Bla->Bul and Ank->Con and
>Rumania is annihilated.
Fine by me.
There is only one circumstance in which I need to hear from you again.
Please let me know if France becomes unhappy with you today. I believe he
threatens to attack me if you do not cooperate with him. It may not be so
bad if he attacks me *after* tonight's move, but I don't want him to attack
me tonight.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Italy to France
>
> Vie -> Bud breaks that support and allows
> Rum -> Ser s by Bul to succeed.
>
Last I checked, the unit in Bulgaria was a fleet in the south coast not
capable of supporting Rumania->Serbia and also not capable of supporting
Rumania to hold.
I don't want to sound like I don't want to make the move, I just want to
make sure that I'm doing it for the correct reason.
> It also allows Ven -> Tri to succeed (if you do not deny it).
This is true.
> I realize that you really have no desire to see me succeed.
This is not entirely true. I want to see you get to 17 as long as I have
one critical unit in the stalemate line.
> All I have to offer is my promise not to attack
> Ivy and the chance to see Nick suffer (or succeed less I
> guess). I am hoping that your dislike for him is greater
> than your dislike for me.
My dislike for Nick is decades beyond my dislike for anybody else. Like I
said before though, I want to make sure I make a move for the correct
reason.
> So even the support for Rum -> Ser may not
> occur as I may feel that I have to support Bul to hold.
In the context of the current map, I'm not sure I understand this sentence.
> I was not expecting to be in Rumania. Nick knew that I
> was attacking it (to break support to Bul) and probably
> wanted me there so he could destroy my army.
In all likelihood, correct.
Okay, time for me to make some suggestions.
ank-arm
vie-bud
rum-ser
bul/sc - gre
con - aeg
My moves are what you want. Rum->Ser keeps Nick out of Serbia. Bul->Gre
gives a retreat for Rumania. Con->Aeg gives Ankara some breathing room. I
would also not interfere in VEN-TRI.
The other option is BLA supp RUM-SEV but you'd most likely lose Serbia in
the process.
I think these moves have risk for both sides but also have a great payoff if
successful.
Roberto
PS: SOB copped a plea when he saw me walk into the courtroom. :)
Message from Italy to Russia
I've had a chance to study the map and your suggestions while awaiting my
jury call and I saw something intriguing.
The only sure fire way to annihilate the Rumanian army is as follows:
bud-rum
sev s bud-rum
ukr s bud-rum (or supp sev)
sil-gal
tri-ser
bla-bul/ec
ank-con
Anything else, and all France has to do is move Bul/sc to give him a
retreat.
In all honesty, I'm really not interested in moving my Black Sea fleet to
Rumania this turn.
Sorry for the rushed note but I got to go.
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
>Last I checked, the unit in Bulgaria was a fleet in
>the south coast not capable of supporting
>Rumania->Serbia
Ack, what and idiot I can be. I was confusing Ser and
Gre in my mind. It (my mind) is elsewhere and not on
this game.
I am considering your orders. But if I make those moves,
and you betray me, you and Russia take Con, Bul, Rum,
Ser, and Tyrolia. That is quite a bit of risk for me.
Some of this I cannot prevent anyway, admittedly.
Do you have any safer offers, like Vie -> Tri with Bul&
Con holding?
--King Roger XIII
PS:
>PS: SOB copped a plea when he saw me walk into the
>courtroom. :)
LOL. Thanks for improving my day with a laugh.
Message from Italy to France
>
> I am considering your orders. But if I make those moves,
> and you betray me, you and Russia take Con, Bul, Rum,
> Ser, and Tyrolia. That is quite a bit of risk for me.
> Some of this I cannot prevent anyway, admittedly.
>
Actually, most of it you can't prevent if Nick and I cooperate. :)
Then again, if you and Nick betray me then I lose.......everything. Quite a
bit of risk on my part.
Rest assured, Tyrolia is safe as I would want to prevent Trieste from
retreating to either BUD or VIE.
> Do you have any safer offers, like Vie -> Tri with Bul&
> Con holding?
I seriously thought of asking for support into Trieste but in the end I
couldn't come up with a scenario where I could keep Nick out of Budapest as
well.
I can tell you that BUL hold (or support CON) will end in Rumania being
removed from the map and I can't stop it even if I wanted to.
My goal is to see Nick disband this turn or at least not build if he betrays
Ivy, and, at the same time, somehow leave me with 5 centers and you at least
even or +1. It's a noble goal but one that I probably won't reach.
I think I can adjust my offer to be CON hold (or move to BUL/sc). I don't
think I would then be able to betray you and take both BUL and CON. Moving
to BUL though would prevent the Rumanian retreat.
Roberto
As I write this, I think more and more about Vie->Tri. I doubt Nick will
move Budapest so I may take you up on the offer.
Message from Russia to England and Italy
>Message from Italy to Russia in 'titleist':
>The only sure fire way to annihilate the Rumanian army is as follows:
>bud-rum
>sev s bud-rum
>ukr s bud-rum (or supp sev)
>sil-gal
>tri-ser
>bla-bul/ec
>ank-con
Well, Sev S Ukr-Rum, Bud S Tri-Ser also destroys Rum,
and prevents Rum-Ser from defending Serbia.
>Anything else, and all France has to do is move Bul/sc to give him a
>retreat.
True, but why would he move out of Bulgaria, when
that risks losing Con to Bla S Ank-Con?
>I'm really not interested in moving my Black Sea fleet to
>Rumania this turn.
That's fine. If we take Rum and Ser this year,
Ank and Bla will be able to retake Con next year.
>Sorry for the rushed note but I got to go.
Please respond to this if you get the chance.
Thanks,
Nick.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I know that you will not like this message, but I prefer
to be honest about things. Although I may not have taken
your fall moves personally, within the game I do remember
them. Also, I understood your reasoning and a portion of
it still holds true now. Therefore, I am not ready to
put myself at your mercy.
I will hold in Constantinople and will attack Trieste
myself. This gives you a fair shot at holding Vie. I
will support Munich to hold. I am undecided about Bul ->
Gre and will decide later after conferring with Ivy.
I am asking you to do the following:
Vie -> Bud
BlS -> Sev
Ank -> Arm
It maximizes the damage to Russia and gives you a chance
to be in key portions of the stalemate line. It also
allows me to not attack Ivy for the forseeable future.
If I do move to Gre, your attacks on Bud and Sev may
prevent Rum from having to retreat and you would hold
Bul.
If you cannot stomach the last two moves, you can
consider BlS -> Arm s by Ank. I understand that you may
have to do what you have to do. You may not choose to do
any of the moves and instead put yourself at Russia's
mercy. I accept that and the fact that I may lose the
army in Rumania. I simply prefer to not have to count on
supports or moves of anyone else for a while.
I wish you luck and apologize that my decision does not
make you happy.
--King Roger XIII
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
My 3 year old son is doing the mouse clicking, he is so helpful. So if
this message is a mess, that is the reason.
I just wanted to add to my last message that I could have agreed to your
original plan and then tried to grab Ankara. I chose instead to be
honest with you.
We shall see where that leaves us.
--King Roger XIII
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> Well, Sev S Ukr-Rum, Bud S Tri-Ser also destroys Rum,
> and prevents Rum-Ser from defending Serbia.
>
True, there are other combinations but I suggested Budapest since it would
allow me to potentially keep another center.
How about UKR supp SEV-RUM?
> True, but why would he move out of Bulgaria, when
> that risks losing Con to Bla S Ank-Con?
Two reasons, it's his only logical retreat if Rumania is dislodged and I
asked him to.
> Ank and Bla will be able to retake Con next year.
Not if I have to disband one or both of them.
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
>
> I am asking you to do the following:
> Vie -> Bud
> BlS -> Sev
> Ank -> Arm
>
I should learn to keep my mouth shut. Now you want me to do three things
instead of just two. :)
> If I do move to Gre, your attacks on Bud and Sev may
> prevent Rum from having to retreat and you would hold
> Bul.
What are the chances you'd move to Greece if I agreed to all three of the
moves above? There has to be something in this deal for me, eh.
> I wish you luck and apologize that my decision does not
> make you happy.
No one is required to make me happy. I make or break my own happiness.
Your decision sits well with me.
Roberto
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto,
> > Well, Sev S Ukr-Rum, Bud S Tri-Ser also destroys Rum,
> > and prevents Rum-Ser from defending Serbia.
>True, there are other combinations but I suggested Budapest since it would
>allow me to potentially keep another center.
Fair enough. I'm inclined to be sure of Serbia, but
I understand your perspective.
>How about UKR supp SEV-RUM?
No, given the choice between Sev and Bud, it makes
more sense for me to take Rum from Bud. Next Spring
Sev can move to Arm, and threaten Smy. I'll change
to Bud-Rum with this letter. Please let me know if
you change your mind.
> > True, but why would he move out of Bulgaria, when
> > that risks losing Con to Bla S Ank-Con?
>it's his only logical retreat if Rumania is dislodged and I
>asked him to.
If you think he's actually going to retreat, then
Bla S Ank-Con or Ank S Bla-Con makes much more sense
than Bla-Bul, I think. We take Con, Rum, and Ser from
France, and force Con and Rum to retreat, and you have
a Fleet adjacent to Aeg.
Nick.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
>What are the chances you'd move to Greece if I agreed to all three of
the
>moves above? There has to be something in this deal for me, eh.
A tough question. On one hand, I want you to think Bulgaria will be
covered so that you do not try to attack it (passing up the moves I am
asking you for) and allowing the possible retreat. On the other hand, I
want you to think that I will move out if that will make you do the
moves I requested :-) So since I do not know which will make you more
likely to follow my request, I do not know which story I should tell.
Therefore the truth is the best in this case. I would say that it is
unlikely that I will leave Bulgaria (perhaps 20%). Right now I have
orders to hold, but I may hear something that will change my mind.
I actually do not want to end up with both Rumania and Bulgaria. I
cannot build and that will just freak everyone out. The only advantage
is that it might deny Russia another center and it might keep another
army in the far east, where I may need them. It may be in your best
interest to make me dangerously large, that is your call to make. But
even the moves I asked for will not guarantee that.
If I lose that army, that is something I will have to accept. In the
end, your move that I am more interested in is Vie -> Bud. I would also
like you to make certain that Russia stays out of Armenia. You can best
do this by moving there, you can also bounce yourself there, positioned
to continually move to Armenia. I leave it up to you. My standing
offer is that as long as you are denying Russia land access to Turkey, I
will defend and leave Ankara alone. I need you to have it. I will also
consider helping you hold Vienna next year. I will not attack Munich,
because you will be supporting Berlin (I assume). I will simply
continue to support Munich unless Ivy demands otherwise.
One last thought, I full expect Russia to remain in Budapest. Why
should he leave it. He can accomplish everything he needs and still
remain there. Look at his requests for you. Would they cause him
problems if he did remain there instead of what he said he would do?
--King Roger XIII
Message from Italy to France
For the record, I agree to move as you request. What you do with Bulgaria
is your decision.
Roberto
England: Army Belgium → Ruhr
England: Army Berlin → Kiel (*bounce*)
England: Fleet English Channel HOLD
England: Fleet Irish Sea SUPPORT Fleet English Channel
England: Army Kiel → Holland
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet Norwegian Sea → Norway
England: Fleet Norwegian Sea → Norway
France: Fleet Brest → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) SUPPORT Fleet Constantinople
France: Army Burgundy SUPPORT Italian Army Munich (*void*)
France: Fleet Constantinople SUPPORT Fleet Bulgaria (south coast)
France: Army Marseilles → Piedmont
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Western Mediterranean
France: Army Paris → Brest (*bounce*)
France: Army Picardy → Brest (*bounce*)
France: Army Rumania → Serbia (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) SUPPORT Fleet Brest → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Army Tyrolia → Trieste
France: Army Venice SUPPORT Army Tyrolia → Trieste
France: Fleet Western Mediterranean → Tunis
Italy: Fleet Ankara → Armenia
Italy: Fleet Black Sea → Sevastopol (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Bohemia → Vienna (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Munich → Kiel (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Vienna → Budapest (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Trieste → Serbia (*cut*)
Russia: Fleet Denmark → Sweden
Russia: Army Norway → Finland
Russia: Army Prussia → Silesia
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Ukraine → Rumania (*cut*)
Russia: Army Silesia → Galicia
Russia: Army Trieste → Serbia (*bounce, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Ukraine → Rumania (*bounce*)
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