|
|
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben,
>>To my mind, your strategy would likely have ended in a 3 way with an
outside chance of a Russian solo. My strategy would likely have led to a
draw with a remote chance of an English solo, which alas is not coming to
pass. But I was looking for the solo, and I didn't see how your plan would
get me there.No doubt you saw a future that I did not, but that was my
thinking.>>
The future I saw was a Russian solo. I havent been following the game for
some time due to other priorities but I do recall deciding to try and help
someone to a solo. I guess the choice fell on Russia. I must have been
making suggestions to you which would lead to the Russian solo. Forgive my
sins ;-)
I would obviously rather one person solo than a draw. I guess at the time
Russia had the best chance.
Tony
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> I must have been making suggestions to you which would
> lead to the Russian solo.
That explains your thinking. I had thought at the time you (a) weren't
paying attention or (b) were stupid, I hadn't considered the possibility
that you were still really playing from beyond the grave. You, sir, are a
cretin.
:-)
Ben
Message from Germany to England
:-)
Message from Germany to England
With bal - ber supported by kie followed up by bot - bal then the 3 way is
secured.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> With bal - ber supported by kie followed up by bot - bal then the 3 way is
> secured.
While I am aware that your advice is technically correct, I still must
hesitate before doing anything you suggest. ;-)
Ben
Message from Russia to all
It is ludicrous at this point that I would be late, but I had another work
event come up and bite me. Given that this is two times since I became the
obstacle to a draw being called, I am setting draw with this message. No need
to punish you all (and all the observers) for my lateness.
--- Eric
Message from England to all
EOG England
My plan is to write this quickly and take a nap. Tonight & tomorrow
morning I will, Greg willing, read over some of the Yahoo group business,
and I will follow up. But I will try (proofreading now - I see I failed)
to keep this short.
Congratulations to the other participants in the draw, and also to those
who were eliminated, this was overall the most challenging board I have
played at. I am proud of myself to be in the draw, yes, though it be 4-way.
Concerning the inclusion of Andy in the four way draw, there are several
reasons why I did it. First and foremost, there was not even the remotest
chance of a solo, or advancement in a tournament, if I did eliminated him.
Indeed by keeping him alive the position was slightly *more* unstable,
though not sufficiently so that I didn't set draw. All other things being
precisely even, I would eliminate, but all other things were *not* even
here. I believed Andy's play in the endgame earned him some credit, plus
notwithstanding occasional relatively minor betrayals, such as the bounce
with Russia in Ruhr, he was an excellent correspondent with good advice. A
pleasure to play with. So, he got a merit badge for that too. When you,
gentle reader, are England and I am Italy stuck in Berlin, it will be your
choice, but this time I was England, and it was mine.
Now, to work forward from the beginning:
In the opening it was natural for me to try to work with Erik against Tony.
This dovetailed with Andy's efforts and also if successful would lead to
the destruction of the most experienced of my near neighbors. To a certain
extent, Tony brought this on himself by being abrasive, or at least frigid,
in his opening press. It was very easy for him to alienate Erik, giving me
the partner I needed. I still do not understand why he would agree to an
outrageous opening strategy and do something conservative instead. I guess
it drew Erik out of position, but he *knew* I wouldn't be out of position
to work against him - there was a diplomatic price to be paid, and he paid
it.
For technical reasons probably relating to a virus I am having problems
running Adobe, which I would need for a review of tactics in the early
years.
I recall Eric recovering very nicely from '01 setbacks and quickly emerging
as the board leader, always softly diverting attention from himself. If AT
had stuck together awhile longer at the beginning it would have been
terrific for me. I do not know which of my friends in the East triggered
the collapse of that relationship, but their falling out was premature.
What I would have liked was for them to cripple Russia first, and then the
normally unstable AT could have fallen apart, and it would have been
perfect.
However Eric was plenty strong when AT split, and grew as a result. As I
recall Philippe for as long as he was participating in the game, even when
attacked from his East, would not let go of Andy's ankle. I wonder why
that was. . . Anyway this handicapping of Andy probably is the single
biggest factor keeping Andy from being a major player as the game wore on.
As I mentioned in an earlier press to self, my biggest failing probably
game-long was my failure to develop intelligence from AT or to put it to
good use when I had it. It struck me in F'01, I remember, that Tony wrote
me he would have done X if only he'd known of the bounce in BLA. Well, *I*
knew of the bounce in BLA, but I had no idea what to make of this
intelligence, and soon enough the intelligence started to dry up.
My finest hour was probably turning back the French F IRI and subsequently
grabbing BER and KIE. This was a big jump for me, from hunted to hunter,
and once I had BER I was looking for the angle to solo.
I pulled back from my attack against France because I figured, with BEL and
BRE claimed, I had crippled Erik's ability to move swiftly against me, and
by pulling back, I was able to pursue my 18th in the North, in a position
in which I could come back for centers 13 through 17 (or whatever) from
Erik later. Never came to pass. . . See above; the early collapse of AT
and consequent strong R made it too difficult a road for me.
Concerning the players,
Jason: It was a pleasure, I would rather have had more to discuss with you.
. . I should, if I'd been smart, at least been able to discuss your
suicide with you. Oh well.
Philippe: I know I frustrated you by my decision not to play too
aggressively against Russia, but to pursue Germany instead; that was our
falling out and the end of meaningful discourse. Part of my failing, as
I've said.
Tony: We corresponded a *lot*. It was my sense your pushiness led to the
solid EF against you and ultimately to the Russian cooperation that spelled
your end. Your board and diplomatic skill greatly exceed my own and I hope
I am a better player from all our correspondence.
Andy: Pretty much all said, scattered through above.
Erik: The timing of your attack against Andy at the end was perfect,
notwithstanding the banter I shared with Andy at the time. You showed a
lot of patience not turning on me when you had every reason to want to. . .
I recall some humor mixed in with your press, earlier on. I would have
liked more of it, and the ability to turn that on can really help in a jam.
Eric: Very well played, you have a soft diplomatic touch. I am proud to
have survived into the draw with you.
No doubt more to follow. . .
Ben (England)
Message from Russia to all
Ben,
You are entirely too short winded for my tastes. :)
I'll bore everyone with a long EOG when I have time later in the week --
maybe I can steal the time this evening -- but I doubt I'll have much chance
to go through the full press logs and respond to anything there until the
weekend.
--- Eric
Message from Germany to all
Thanks first off to Greg for GM-ing the game. A BIG congratulations to Andy,
Ben, Eric & Erik in their share of the draw.
Greg, would you be so kind as to post the goupr which hosts the comments and
press. I wil sign up there and get around to my EOG next week. It is a
holiday period in the netherlands and I wont be back until Monday.
Tony
Message from France to all
Good game, all. Congrats to all the players for an enjoyable game, and
thanks to Greg for setting it up.
It will take me a few days to get an EOG together; I won't be home tonight
but should be able to go through old press on Wednesday. I will say that I
am somewhat surprised to be here; I counted at least three or four fatal
errors on my part during the game that should have gotten me killed. Gotta
love France.
More soon,
Erik
Message from Italy to all
Thank you Greg for running a great game. Congrats to everyone else in the
draw, and a big thank you to Ben for keeping his word to me. It was a
pleasure from beginning to end.....and I can say without hesitation that
this is one of the toughest games I have ever played.
I dont have time for an EOG right now, but one is coming later.
Thanks
Andy
Every normal man must be tempted, at times
to spit on his hands, hoist the skull and
crossbones, and begin slitting throats"
- H.L.Menken
Message from Turkey to all
Greetings from the long-dead Turkey.
This certainly wasn't the best game I've played, although considering
the competition I feel I at least held my own.
My main plan from the beginning was to work with Austria to reduce
Russia, and then move west against Austria to establish myself in
central Europe. I figured this would remove both of my main adversaries,
and set me up well for the end game.
Unfortunately, I abandoned this plan very quickly under a withering
diplo attack from Russia and Italy, combined with my lack of progress. I
then tried to play AIR off against one another, as they each wanted me
to work against the others, and this would have worked except that
Russia and Austria both stabbed in 1905. I could have survived either
one, but both put me in an untenable position.
After that, I tried to work with Italy, but France's assault on his
position caused him to attack me to threaten a Russian win. Obviously,
his ploy worked, since he made the draw. After 1906, it was all over for
me. Russia kept me alive for a few years, but there was nothing I could
do to prevent him from eliminating me.
Great game, all. Looking forward to reading the groups.
jason
Message from Master to all
Players,
Congratulations to England, France, Italy and Russia on the draw. Especially
Italy.
You are all welcome to join the game's discussion group - c2b@yahoogroups.com.
You can do so by going to: http://groups.yahoo.com/ and joining or by sending
an e-mail to: c2b-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from England to Germany and Italy
Hey guys please sign up to the Yahoo group c2b & join the post mortem. Don't forget your eogs.
Thanks.
Ben
Message from Russia to all
Russian EOG
Duh -- I wrote this on Monday but never sent it. I'll add a few comments
based on my review of the press and send it along. Just what you all want,
more long press from Eric! :)
General stuff:
I have a heck of a time playing Russia. Most people find it nice, but I
tend to prefer Italy and Austria. But I'm odd that way -- I'm generally a
"wait and see" player, and Russia just gives me so many options that I can
too easily confuse myself with options. I learned in my face-to-face
experience that my wait-and-see style is really only viable in email games,
but it's worked okay for me online in the past.
Prior to the game, I was a little worried about playing across from Andy
(just from his reputation), but I was determined not to let his reputation
keep me from working with him.
Game chronology:
1901:
Early on, Tony's press freaked me out. I thought it was well done, but it
seemed to me that he was moving from the get go to contain me
diplomatically by sending out G to RAI press and trying to coordinate
moves. Germany directing all three of RAI has got to be bad for one of R or
I at least. So I was immediately predisposed against Tony. Tony was also
quite adamant that I make a northern opening. Combined with trying to
orchestrate my southern moves, I was very resistant to working with him in
the beginning. Plus, Ben and I hit it off well early on, too, which made
being too pro-Germany and anti-English even less attractive.
At the same time, Andy and Philippe seemed to hit things off just
swimmingly. :) I was quite heartened to get this press from Italy in S1901
discussions: "Eric, Philippe seems to be scared to death of me, please cut
his heart out." I would say that this message and whatever led up to it
more than any skill on my part makes it clear why I was eventually the
dominant power in the east.
The opening moves were decidedly unpleasant, with Turkey taking Arm,
Austria being coy, France threatening Italy and EF cooperating. Ick! The
only good thing was that the EF meant that Germany was likely to be
disposed towards working with me. In Fall, things continued to get worse,
with AT cooperating against me, Italy lying to me about his plans, Germany
insisting that I build in StP and a strong EF. Most depressing is that
neither Turkey nor Austria was talking with me. Both had just decided to
come after me with basically no discussion. I was pretty confident this
would be elimination number three in a row at this point, and was very
distressed about it. [Added after reading the press log] Looking at the
full press log I am inferring that my early game negotiations are too "wide
open" and don't get the kind of mind-share that the much more detailed
discussions between EFG, AIG and AT do. Even though several of those were
ultimately unsuccessful, they effectively isolated me before the game even
began.
My thinking at this point was to try to break up AT somehow (brilliant
strategy, huh?) and then to fan the flames of E vs G concern. By being the
lesser evil for both E and G of them, I hoped to be able to play them
against the other *if* I survived the AT somehow. That turned out to be a
good plan, and one that very nearly got me to a solo. :) I built A StP in
order to try to buy friendship from Germany (I felt I already had it from
England) and make myself seem less of a threat to Austria and Turkey. I
also wrote a long message to Ben telling him that A StP was coming to
minimize the damage of building A StP, though I also tried to negotiate
having him lend me Nwy despite the near impossibility of succeeding. It
also minimized my defense against Philippe, which I thought might convince
Jason that AT wasn't going to work out in his favor. In my defense,
remember that I was quite desperate at the time! [Also after reading press
log] I was lucky that Andy pushed the AT paranoia -- had they stuck
together, I probably would have lost War and Sev in short order.
1902 really got me a position that would carry me into the draw and
(eventually) looking at possibilities of soloing. I stabbed Ben in Spring
for Norway (both banking on mending fences with him later and also keeping
Germany viable while I got back on my feet) and supported Jason from Arm to
Rum, effectively breaking the AT. I was not sanguine about my chances right
after the spring moves, but when Fall negotiations showed that Ben was not
overly upset with the stab for Nwy, I started feeling pretty good. When
Philippe announced his willingness to work to help me despite my support of
Jason, I felt a bit better. When Ben and I agreed to our little test of
Tony's reliability (we agreed that Ben would attack me with Tony's support)
and Tony failed to be reliable to either of us, I was getting downright
optimistic. And when I stabbed Jason for Rum in Fall and was still able to
negotiate friendly builds (A Sev/F Smy) that set up T vs. I, my position in
S1903 was 180 degrees from how I entered S1902. That year was probably the
best year I had in the game overall. Though ironically after Fall I still
thought I should have put an army in Rum and was very depressed about my
moves until the builds with Jason were arranged. I still think it may have
been a mistake, in that not being able to put an army into Rum slowed both
me and Jason down for a long time in the Balkans.
1903 was kind of a mess. Lots of diplomacy, very little feeling that I had
any control over what was going on. Basically, I convinced France to attack
England and England to attack Germany. I was still confident that despite
helping England against Germany that Tony would decide to throw to me out
of spite (he was already on the verge of doing so anyway). (And Philippe,
were it not for that miscommunication, I think I would have been able to
deliver on my later promise of not eliminating you).
This was also the year I had that massive screwup, where I sent a message
to to Andy (instead of Philippe) which ended up costing me Vie, which would
have been used to build a fleet in StP. Well technically, fessing up to the
errant message screwed up my position, the message itself actually had no
impact. Without a build, I was forced to continue working with Ben. Had I
build in StP when Ben put fleets in Lvp and Lon, I might have been able to
convince Erik to keep after Ben.
'04 I again made a shot to take out Ben. In spring Ben and I combined to
attack Tony. That was the breaking point for Tony (or so he claimed) and
from then on he was helping me against Ben. I ordered support for him
against Ben, took some of Ben's centers, and would have really hurt him
(Ben) except that he had already patched things up with Erik (damned that
missing build!). Erik defended poorly and so Ben ended up building one
instead of going down one. Major problems in the solo planning. At the same
time Jason took Rum with an army instead of with his fleet as we agreed,
and that spelled the beginning of the end of the RT. (Probably has
something to do with my overreaction to Jason too). While I agree with
Jason that I was a huge threat, at that point I think it was too late for
him to slow me down with an attack -- if he wanted to see my growth slowed
(and not get eliminated in the process), he needed to come after me several
seasons earlier. By the time he stabbed (technically, set himself up to
stab me -- the stab would have come the next season), I think he needed to
focus on establishing himself against IA, not against me.
'05 was the "Great, Poorly Reasoned Attack" on Turkey, where I meant to tap
him but ended up force retreating him to Gal (gack, what stupidity). At the
same time, there was the "Supreme German Miscommunication", wherein Tony
overlooked the fact that I had offered the support he wanted and attacked
me on the assumption I was after him. Forcing Jason to retreat to Gal was
terrible, tying up 4 units in defense that could have been used to
consolidate Germany and pressure Italy. Failing to properly coordinate the
attack with Tony against Ben -- which I will repeat was all Tony's fault
dammit! :) -- slowed me down enough hugely. It meant Ben stayed large, no F
StP build (again), and basically destroyed another good shot at a solo. I
was damned lucky to get one disband instead of going down four. Very
disappointing, but in many ways my own damned fault.
Tony, I would really like to know -- now that we are out of the game -- if
you were really interested in throwing to me or if the miscommunication was
just a ruse while you tried to get back in the game.
'06 was consolidation of my position waiting for the StL to break, which it
did when Erik attacked Andy. I hated to eliminate Philippe, but when Andy
also started trying to throw to me, there just wasn't any realistic way to
coordinate with Philippe -- he actually got in my way as I tried to push
into Italian and Turkish centers.
'07 Ben attacked Erik very effectively and I had my first concern that Ben
might solo -- I could see that I wasn't going to get to Tun anytime soon. I
had yet another shot at the solo here, where Erik came damned close to
inviting me into French centers to spite Ben. I think it was probably a
mistake not to walk in uninvited.
In 08 I pressed Jason as Erik backed off of Andy. I knew Andy would want to
reestablish himself. Andy was clearly setting up to attack me and trying to
convince me to get badly out of position. I found the discussion pretty
amusing, frankly.
'09 I wasn't sure I should have pushed against Andy, but basically this was
when he was put on the ropes for real.
'10 I mis-guessed where Ben would try to convoy and lost StP and thus my
control of my solo chances. In hindsight, I should have moved War-Lvn, not
War-Pru. In Fall, Erik failed to tell me he wanted Ion as he renewed his
attack on Andy, so I supported Jason there, bouncing Erik. Had I known that
Erik wanted it, I probably would have let him have it -- I wanted Andy
under extreme duress, not just partial duress, and I wanted Erik so far
advanced against Andy that he couldn't really back out to ensure Andy kept
trying to throw to me.
'12-'14 Andy and I moved got me to the cusp of a solo, where it all
depended on Ben being able to convince Andy that Andy would not be
whittled. I spent the time trying to force Andy to throw to me, but I
recognize that it was a hopeless quest. I'm not sure at that point if there
was anything I could have done better -- perhaps supporting Erik into
Andy's centers instead of taking them myself. But basically, once Ben told
Andy that he (Andy) was in the draw, there was nothing I could do to force
a solo from Andy even if Ben was lying.
Had I stayed around, I probably would have very blatantly backed off of
Erik, and tried to get him nervous enough to attack (or defend more
strongly against) Ben. I could imagine explaining that I really wanted to
see Andy eliminated since he welched on throwing to me, but Ben told me
that he'd only eliminate Andy if I gave him a shot at also eliminating Erik
-- which was mostly true, though a distortion of what Ben had actually
said. I had planned to enter orders that would have taken all of my fleets
out of the Western Med, and just left armies defending Italy when I went
late and decided to spare people the agony. I'm not sure whether I would
have handed over Mos or War -- only if I could have retaken them. I wanted
Erik see that he was in *real* danger of elimination. I think Ben is good
enough to keep Erik from freaking out about my moves, but that was what I
would have done.
Comments on the Players:
(In order of elimination or final size):
Tony/Germany:
What a character! Added a tension to the game that I really missed when he
left. His casual attitude towards the truth doomed him in this game, but
had Ben and I not had such a good rapport he might have been able to pull
it off. As it was, his maneuvering with EF combined with my relationship
with Ben meant that I could attack Ben with relative impunity and still
come out looking like the "good" neighbor. I really enjoyed working with
him once I figured out what made him tick. Great attitude.
Tony, I am still disappointed that we failed to coordinate keeping you
moving against England back in 1905. Ben would have been down one, I would
have been able to pick up an extra build from Ber for F StP.
Philippe/Austria:
Reading the commentators messages [on c2b] I can see that Philippe never
showed me how good he can be. My major commentary on Philippe is that it
was surprisingly easy to tell when he was going to be working for me or
against me. When he planned to attack me, he always change the tone of his
press to be distant and vague. I was rarely concerned about whether or not
to trust him or attack him. Of course, given that he spent much of the game
trying to help me as much as he could (after the first few seasons), it
wasn't much of an issue.
Solid player, but locked up against Italy early on, which gave me a free
pass for much of the game, especially with Jason allowing me to get away
with so much too.
Jason/Turkey:
Nice guy, and not as naive as he led on, but still seemed to play a game
that was independent of the press early on. Decided to attack me, then to
attack Philippe with no clear rhyme or reason that I could decipher. Never
to my recollection tried to negotiate anything that he wanted. Frequently
he would tell me things that made no sense and that just begged me to
attack him. I'll clarify that -- what he said was coherent, but it didn't
make sense to tell me those things. Several times he would argue that he
was working for RT and prepping to attack Italy, but in the same press
would state how he couldn't help me because he was supporting Andy into an
Austrian center. That dynamic just never made sense to me, and I'm really
curious what that was all about.
Andy/Italy:
Had a hard position, and with his problems with Philippe, it was rarely
even worth considering working with him -- despite my intent to being open
to him coming into the game, so IR never became a reality. I was perfectly
willing to go with IR in principle, but knowing that as long as Italy was
there Philippe would be perhaps overly wary made me willing to risk a lot
to cooperate with Austria. That lost me Rum in the early going, but made
things work out well once Jason turned on Philippe. I also hoped to play on
the animosity that I detected between Andy and Erik, and I was betting that
leaving Andy hanging in the wind, while annoying to him, would eventually
lead to Erik attacking him, potentially getting Andy on my side as well.
The more help I got from AT, the more I thought that might eventually get
me to Tun, so I never *really* wanted to see Andy do well, because it never
seemed to be beneficial for me.
Andy frequently relied on his ability to convince people of things based on
strength of personality or his desire that they believe him rather than on
the logic of his arguments. One of my favorite exchanges was this one. This
was when we were exploring ways we could work together long term.
Andy: "I think I have an idea....but I need your help. Can you tap
Budapest in the spring?"
Me: "I *can* tap Bud. What's that gonna help?"
Andy: "It gets me Serbia."
Andy, this was a ROTFL moment for me. That's not an *idea*, that's a
*request*. I could see that you could get Ser if I tapped Bud. The way you
presented this made me think that you thought you could make me think it
was a better idea *because* you called it an idea.
Another instance was in 08 after Erik backed off of you and you were
claiming you were still working with me. You were trying to get me to move
out of position, but when you were unwilling to admit it, I dropped the
issue. In the aftermath we had a back and forth where I told you I hadn't
believed you and you said, (paraphrase) "You should have said something. I
would have told you that I was going to use my build for F Nap to use
against Erik, and the problem would have been solved." Here you assumed
that it is what you say that matters, irrespective of the actual board
setup. Something you would almost *never* fall for, but you expected me to.
I could almost feel insulted. :)
The key issue was that I knew that when Erik backed off your goals would
change. I was willing to work with you to get you a stronger draw position
(that also pushed you west) if you continued to help me in the east, and I
told you this. You claimed that you were still going full-bore for the
Russian solo. The unlikeliness of this, combined with the ridiculous move
suggestions, made anything and everything you said suspect at that time.
Not recognizing that -- especially when I raised the point that I thought
you'd no longer be going for the R solo -- was the oversight there.
I learned a LOT about how to look at a board and when to take risks from
working with you, and I had a blast meeting you both here and seeing you
again in Portland.
Well played at the end of the game getting into the draw. I recognized that
I was driving you into the draw with my play towards the solo, but as you
said, had Erik pressed you even slightly more, I probably would have
soloed, so it made sense to me as a course of action, rather than backing
off and working for the two way.
And for the record, I *really* was that busy at work. There may have been a
time or two when I avoided you intentionally, but it has been an insane
year. It's not that I had *no* time, but I tend to take a lot of time to
compose my press, and on many occasions I just didn't have enough for the
inefficient way I play the game.
Erik/France:
Erik and I did a decent job of cross board communication, especially
considering how often both of us were unavailable. I appreciated his
willingness to eschew conventional wisdom (not sticking with the StL,
etc.), particularly when it kept getting Andy to try to throw me the game. :)
We never really got a chance to cooperate a lot, as every time I got him to
stab Ben, I kept ending up helping Ben to stymie him. In my defense I
almost always stabbed Ben whenever he'd turn around to get payback from
Erik, so it probably helped Erik as much as it hurt him. Unfortunately for
me, EF kept making up.
Ben/England:
I had an absolute blast interacting with Ben. Great sense of humor (or at
least, very compatible with mine). Very forgiving player, too, though I
don't know that this is necessarily a good thing. I never would have
stabbed as many times as I did if I had the sense (correct or not) that I
couldn't talk my way out of any treachery. :) I think Ben gave me *waaay*
too much leeway for his own good. That said, he had real solo shots at
times in the game. I also enjoyed working with him to understand the depth
of Tony's deviousness as it happened.
I imagine all the inane football and Princess Bride blather must have bored
people to tears (perhaps that's why everyone stopped commenting later in
the game?) but that was some of the most fun press I've shared in a game.
Me/Russia:
Looking at the comments, out of the gate I sucked rocks. The only player
not to have any alliance in the bag in '01, I was lucky to have Tony and
Jason (both of whom proved extremely unreliable to their neighbors) next to
me, and the AT tension helped me a lot, too. With that, I turned things
around in '02, and it certainly felt like from that point on I had a lot of
control of the whole board.
Some things I think I did particularly well (for me):
Being aggressive about telling people what was required for cooperation
with me. This was especially true with Philippe and Jason, where every time
I stabbed either of them it was because they refused to address my
concerns. While I imagine they didn't like the stabbing, I could always
point to what they had done that caused it, and how I had tried to work out
an alternative solution. Also with E early on, I didn't try to sugar-coat
things with him as I usually do. When I was unwilling to give back Nwy, I
was pretty straight about it, instead of engaging in a negotiation that I
didn't intend to follow through on. I think all of those things helped me
when I got back onside with each of the players.
Taking some risks (though still not enough risks).
Good diplomatic influence across the entire board, and by and large the
flow of the board was always in my favor after 1901 and before 1912.
Things done particularly badly:
I was too timid on several occasions -- most of these occasions were noted
in comments that were duly ignored by you commentators. :) I'm glad at
least one of you felt guilty about that!
Failing to solo despite having 4 -- count 'em, 4 -- players acting as
Janissaries. And Erik was right on the edge of being one as well.
Overall I enjoyed this game, though there were some times when work was so
busy that I sort of resented the time the game required. Time for a
sabbatical methinks.
I hope that the commentators are willing to step back in and pick up on the
analysis some more now that the game is over. At some point I'll go over
the 3500 messages in the full press log, but probably not tonight!
[Obviously, this has been done now.]
Thanks for the game all, including of course, Greg. I'll be around and
willing to blather on about any game-related topics.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to all
I also hoped to play on
> the animosity that I detected between Andy and Erik,
It would be very difficult for Erik and I not to have annimosity when this
game started....
and I was betting that
> leaving Andy hanging in the wind, while annoying to him, would eventually
> lead to Erik attacking him, potentially getting Andy on my side as well.
> The more help I got from AT, the more I thought that might eventually get
> me to Tun, so I never *really* wanted to see Andy do well, because it never
> seemed to be beneficial for me.
Eric....every single time you made me an offer, of anything.....
telling me I could get a build, telling me you wouldnt attack me, telling
me that you werent repeating everything I said to you verbatim to the
people attacking me .....I was pretty sure it was all lies....not a
truthful statement in the bunch, but when you are the really small power,
you have to look past that.
> Andy frequently relied on his ability to convince people of things based on
> strength of personality or his desire that they believe him rather than on
> the logic of his arguments. One of my favorite exchanges was this one. This
> was when we were exploring ways we could work together long term.
> Andy: "I think I have an idea....but I need your help. Can you tap
> Budapest in the spring?"
> Me: "I *can* tap Bud. What's that gonna help?"
> Andy: "It gets me Serbia."
You might want to put this in context.
This was the 3rd iteration of a plan that we were discussing. So...YES it
was an idea.
Philippe had 2 centers left, Eric said he wanted to kill him, the only way
to guarantee one of them and not risk Russian dots was to put me in
Serbia.
As well. It was a great place to find out if you really did want to work
with me. Why wouldnt you want to get rid of an enemy and get your
supposed ally (who was significantly behind you in dot count) a build.
> Andy, this was a ROTFL moment for me. That's not an *idea*, that's a
> *request*.
No...it was an idea, you could say you didnt like the idea, and I think
you did.
I could see that you could get Ser if I tapped Bud. The way you
> presented this made me think that you thought you could make me think it
> was a better idea *because* you called it an idea.
Eric....you immediately suspected double talk and lies in just about
everything I said. I didnt lie to you very much. I never had an ally in
this whole game except Ben.
>
> Another instance was in 08 after Erik backed off of you and you were
> claiming you were still working with me. You were trying to get me to move
> out of position, but when you were unwilling to admit it, I dropped the
> issue.
I still wont admit it...its not what I was trying to do.
You had 5 armies in position, and I had one that bordered you....why on
gods green earth would I attack you.
I was trying to get you to move forward so that you could solo. I got
tired of waiting, and when Ben made me such a generous offer, I took it.
In the aftermath we had a back and forth where I told you I hadn't
> believed you and you said, (paraphrase) "You should have said something. I
> would have told you that I was going to use my build for F Nap to use
> against Erik, and the problem would have been solved." Here you assumed
> that it is what you say that matters, irrespective of the actual board
> setup. Something you would almost *never* fall for, but you expected me to.
> I could almost feel insulted. :)
Eric.....you still dont understand.
If someone says something that is total bullshit in your mind, call them
on it, ask them why they feel that way.....it puts all the impetus on them
to explain themselves.
And what I am understanding is that you dont seem to care what the other
person says, if it doesnt benefit you, you want no part of it. That is the
single permeating feeling you gave me every time we communicated.
*If it doesnt clearly benefit me....RIGHT NOW....I dont want any part of
it.*
> The key issue was that I knew that when Erik backed off your goals would
> change.
You dont know that. I had no reason to believe that Erik would back off me
and you certainly shouldnt have had any reason to believe it.
I was willing to work with you to get you a stronger draw position
> (that also pushed you west) if you continued to help me in the east, and I
> told you this.
But you never, ever, ever, ever, followed through on it.
You had at least a half a dozen opportunities to get me builds, and you
would either take a dot from me to compensate or would discard the plan.
You claimed that you were still going full-bore for the
> Russian solo. The unlikeliness of this, combined with the ridiculous move
> suggestions, made anything and everything you said suspect at that time.
Eric...
If you had listened to the move suggestions, there wouldnt have been a
draw, and there was NOTHING I could convince you of to change your mind,
if you dont sit back and play conservatively....always watching me like a
hawk, questioning my every suggestion, and just bloody attack, you get all
the dots, alot sooner, before Erik can ever defend them....
You can...really...honest and truly....but you were SO concerned that I
might dot you for one on the back side that you gave up all the dots in
France if you wanted them.
> I learned a LOT about how to look at a board and when to take risks from
> working with you, and I had a blast meeting you both here and seeing you
> again in Portland.
I had a blast meeting you too....I want to hang out again, I hope you keep
coming to tournaments....
> Well played at the end of the game getting into the draw. I recognized that
> I was driving you into the draw with my play towards the solo, but as you
> said, had Erik pressed you even slightly more, I probably would have
> soloed, so it made sense to me as a course of action, rather than backing
> off and working for the two way.
If you had just pressed, rather than playing conservatively you would have
solo'd
Message from Germany to England and Russia
I have signed up and am awaiting approval.
See you there soon I hope.
Message from Germany to all
I put in a request to join the group. I may have a problem (I have never
used the yahoo mail account). I havent seen a confirmation of me being
allowed into the group. I am in several groups so I have experience with
them. I have copied this message in a message to Greg. Hopefully I wil be
able to sign up shortly and send in my EOG.
Tony
Message from Russia to all
> As well. It was a great place to find out if you really did want to work
> with me. Why wouldnt you want to get rid of an enemy and get your
> supposed ally (who was significantly behind you in dot count) a build.
I thought that was earlier, prior to when I was looking to take out Philippe.
At that time, if I recall correctly Philippe was actively working for me
against you, which was the logic for not wanting you to do well.
>> Andy, this was a ROTFL moment for me. That's not an *idea*, that's a
>> *request*.
>
> No...it was an idea, you could say you didnt like the idea, and I think
> you did.
Sorry, what I meant was that it came across to me as a hint that there was a
grand strategy in the works, there.
> Eric....you immediately suspected double talk and lies in just about
> everything I said. I didnt lie to you very much. I never had an ally in
> this whole game except Ben.
I don't disagree with Ben being your only real ally, but I want to try to
clarify: Early on I rebuffed you a lot because I had a lot of support from AT
and didn't want to see you strong for that reason -- I was hoping to
eventually push through you, so you getting dots was worrisome for that
reason (not because I doubted you or was too worried about you). Later, after
Erik backed off, and started suspecting the double talk in most of your
comments.
> (In 08) You had 5 armies in position, and I had one that bordered
you....why
> on gods green earth would I attack you.
The why I had in mind was because if you attacked me in the Balkans,
supported Jason against me in Turkey and Ben pressed me in the north, then I
would have been over-committed and probably have fallen back. You would get
some builds from the Balkans and Turkey was still stuck between us.
> I was trying to get you to move forward so that you could solo. I got
> tired of waiting, and when Ben made me such a generous offer, I took it.
I can completely understand the frustration. Which offer from Ben are you
referring to here?
> If someone says something that is total bullshit in your mind, call them
> on it, ask them why they feel that way.....it puts all the impetus on them
> to explain themselves.
I thought I had (though in my typical soft fashion, so maybe it wasn't clear
that I was doing that. You suggested moves that seemed fishy to me (Bul-Con
among them) because they had me walking away from you wherever it was
possible to walk away from me. You also stated that you would be using Ven in
the west. I asked (mulitple times) why you weren't looking to re-establish
position now that Erik had backed off, and you said that he hadn't clearly
backed off of you yet yet. To paraphrase you, "I haven't looked yet, but he
might be in a more threatening position now than he was last season."
> And what I am understanding is that you dont seem to care what the other
> person says, if it doesnt benefit you, you want no part of it. That is the
> single permeating feeling you gave me every time we communicated.
>
> *If it doesnt clearly benefit me....RIGHT NOW....I dont want any part of
> it.*
I recognize that short-term thinking is a weakness in the way I play. I do
think this tendency was exaggerated by the fact that for most of the game I
was allowed to get away with it and still gaining.
>> The key issue was that I knew that when Erik backed off your goals would
>> change.
>
> You dont know that.
Sorry, you are correct. I was certain, correctly or not.
> I had no reason to believe that Erik would back off me
> and you certainly shouldnt have had any reason to believe it.
My conversations with Erik and Ben, along with his strong disappointment that
I supported you against him in Ven, all led me to believe he was damned
serious about moving north. Again, I may have mistaked personal certainty for
actual reason, but I don't think I was being unreasonable.
> I was willing to work with you to get you a stronger draw position
>
> But you never, ever, ever, ever, followed through on it.
I was referring to willingness for that one season. I know I never followed
through on it on earlier occasions.
>> You claimed that you were still going full-bore for the
>> Russian solo. The unlikeliness of this, combined with the ridiculous move
>> suggestions, made anything and everything you said suspect at that time.
>[snip]
> You can [solo]...really...honest and truly....but you were SO concerned
that I
> might dot you for one on the back side that you gave up all the dots in
> France if you wanted them.
Well, I'd really like to hear commentary from the others on this. I'm *waaay*
too caught up in the dynamics of the ongoing situation to objectively review
these statements. The fact that you repeat them here makes me willing to
re-examine them. Perhaps I was chasing phantoms. And there is no doubt that
once I was convinced (whether rationally or not) that the first season was a
ruse, the way I listened to you in following seasons was somewhat poisoned.
>> Well played at the end of the game getting into the draw. I recognized
that
>> I was driving you into the draw with my play towards the solo, but as you
>> said, had Erik pressed you even slightly more, I probably would have
>> soloed, so it made sense to me as a course of action, rather than backing
>> off and working for the two way.
>
> If you had just pressed, rather than playing conservatively you would have
> solo'd
Which, if true, at least shows that I was right about at least one thing: it
was pretty pathetic not to have solo'd in my position. :)
--- Eric
Message from Germany to all
I have signed up twice now to the group but my membership stil reads
pending.
I have also pressed to M but he is probably away.
Tony
|