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Message from Germany to England
>I am not sure you will benefit from the wisdom of a person whose ambition
is
to survive as a one center puppet in STP.>
Thats's why you will be a 1 center puppet in PAR remember.
p.s. Did you receive my mail with suggestions?
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I did get an excellent note from you yesterday. This was my response:
> Tony -
> Thanks for putting so much thought into your response. I'm
> still digging
> through it - busy day. I'll write tomorrow, if I get a chance.
>
> Ben
As promised - I will write later, if I get a chance. Busy day today, too,
and you gave me a lot to think about. We have time, for this deadline.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
OK Ben, look forward to hearing from you
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
Did you say that you were actually *at* the game last Sunday? That would have
been amazing. I'm going to the game this Sunday (Broncos at Raiders). Given
how things have been going, I think maybe they have a shot to win the game.
We'll see.
---------------
The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you ending
up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season). Tony's move
of Den-Swe is actually somewhat comforting to me, because it means that you
cannot immediately take two off of me if you are leaning towards turning
north. While I'm very happy with the level of dialog we've had, and I've
already made the moves/builds that make it clear that I'm hoping for an ER
going forward, I was nonetheless worried by the fact that you weren't willing
to clear out of Ska this Spring.
On the other hand, given Tony's move, it turns out that it was important for
you to have both units in place if you still want to go for Kie and Den. We
will need to make a guess as to how Tony is going to defend. He can try to
retake Den with Hel-Den or Hel S Kie-Den. I can probably influence or divine
Tony's move choices by offering to support one or the other (Bal S Hel-Den or
Bal S Kie-Den), if we think he's liable to believe that I'd really offer the
support and tell me the truth about what he's up to. (As I left this in my
drafts folder, I see that I now have press asking for support for Hel-Den).
I'm hoping taking Den with Ska is acceptable to you, since it will make my
life going forward much more comfortable. I would guess that Nth-Hel would
make Erik happier (that is, me offering to support Kie-Den for Tony), because
it has a chance to help him if Tony tries to defend Hol instead of Hel, but
that seems the less likely move from Tony.
Let me know what you think, or if you see any other options.
Happy turkey day eve,
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
I'll keep this short - busy right now:
> Did you say that you were actually *at* the game last Sunday? That would
have
> been amazing.
Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic game, and under
cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even though I did.
The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to go. . . :-(
> I'm going to the game this Sunday (Broncos at Raiders). Given
> how things have been going, I think maybe they have a shot to win the
game.
> We'll see.
Broncos ain't all that and more, and the Raiders have been playing well
notwithstanding their record. It would be nice to beat an old rival, too.
I hadn't mentioned - I like the Raiders more now that Romanowski is gone.
One bad seed.
> ---------------
A nice touch.
> The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you
ending
> up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
> when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season).
It wasn't clear. On tactical matters I would appreciate you being *very
clear* with your preferences, as I really aim to please, but I'm
thickheaded. Though. . .
> On the other hand, given Tony's move, it turns out that it was important
for
> you to have both units in place if you still want to go for Kie and Den.
This is exactly why I did it. If I was going to occupy KIE and DEN in the
fall, then I would need fleets in SKA and DEN. The point was, to be able
to set up NTH - HOL and SKA - DEN and DEN - KIE, to get two centers (ok,
maybe 3, but much more likely, 2). That was my thinking - water under the
bridge now, as it has set up nicely for DEN and KIE but obviously not HOL.
> We
> will need to make a guess as to how Tony is going to defend. He can try to
> retake Den with Hel-Den or Hel S Kie-Den. I can probably influence or
divine
> Tony's move choices by offering to support one or the other (Bal S
Hel-Den or
> Bal S Kie-Den), if we think he's liable to believe that I'd really offer
the
> support and tell me the truth about what he's up to. (As I left this in my
> drafts folder, I see that I now have press asking for support for
Hel-Den).
This is interesting because it means NTH will have to support SKA - DEN
instead of tapping HEL. Offer him the support. Just don't give it.
> I'm hoping taking Den with Ska is acceptable to you, since it will make my
> life going forward much more comfortable. I would guess that Nth-Hel would
> make Erik happier (that is, me offering to support Kie-Den for Tony),
because
> it has a chance to help him if Tony tries to defend Hol instead of Hel,
but
> that seems the less likely move from Tony.
Tony will want to move from HEL because he will count on me tapping it.
And it is more important that I get to 5 right now than that Erik gets to
7. If you would share this scrap of intelligence - the request for support
for HEL - DEN - it will permit me to explain why I have to order NTH s SKA
- DEN. After all, if SKA - DEN does not succeed, I do not claim the dot.
> Let me know what you think, or if you see any other options.
You have 'em. I think we are set up nicely for me to get KIE and DEN, if
you will support. Perhaps as soon as next year I will be ready to shift
into other gears; it depends on what becomes of HOL, among other things.
Perhaps if you suggest to Tony I may be tapping HEL, he will take that as a
sign to support HEL - HOL, or something. Use your judgment.
> Happy turkey day eve,
And to you, my left coast friend. Have a great time at the game.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I will get this out quick - Thanksgiving weekend & a busy week before;
sorry for being brief & I hope it makes some sense.
> Well Russia is becoming very powerful.
Yes.
> I was a little sceptic of the AI press to join them Especially of Italy.
The
> build didn't tally either.
I had wanted an AI to fight RT but it wasn't meant to be.
> I pressed them stating I needed to know more and questioned if they were
> really together. Austria obviously didnt trust Italy fully but he was
hoping
> for an alliance to stop the RT onslaught.As long as Italy continues to
grow
> then he hasnt much to worry about. It doesnt look as yet that France will
be
> giving him any trouble.
Not soon enough.
> I dont think Russia will want Turkey to grow, once Austria falls then
Turkey
> will be squashed between IR.
This is what Andy thinks, I'm guessing. Eric can pick & choose between RI
and RT.
> I am also expecting RF to cooporate this fall move on MUN. I have a
feeling
> Russia will ask for MUN. He will no doubt approach you and offer help into
> Kiel, although he and France could go for that too. BEL pushes to HOL, HOL
> pushes to KIE supported by BAL in return for support into MUN. If they are
> coming after you next then they will have to make their move soon. MAO -
> IRI, MAR - SPA build in BRE. Build in STP. I think you, Austria and I will
> be BBQ.
I believe the American Thanksgiving holiday is dulling the press volume. I
have heard nothing firm from either one, though I have received some chatty
press from each. As I said - nothing firm, all anti-German.
> Thats the way I see things developing. It will be interesting to see what
> happens around Greece. The Turk may sell some story to Austria about
> supporting him to Serbia. At the same time he would support himself to
> Greece from BUL supported by AEG. I wouldnt be surprised to see an RT
> emerge. I think will be a crucial fall to see who the real allies are. The
> only main concern for Russia for a solo is to grab as much as he can in
the
> north/west, this means he has to grab less in the south. He will be
pushing
> you for eveything it is worth to stay allied. He will obviously push
France
> to set your mind at ease but I think he will offer France support into MUN
> and or KIE but take BER himself instead and push GAL - SIL. It will be an
> interesting fall. Once again I will pledge only not to attack DEN.
Feel free to tap it, if you think it will help. But I will count on no
supported attacks, even if the support comes from elsewhere. . .
> I am
> thinking hard what to do retake HOL or try and stop the Russian. If Russia
> grabs a build then I think we will see the RF vs E next year.
It's probably what I would do, if I were Russia. As France I'd be more
reluctant. . .
Ben
Message from Germany to England
> I believe the American Thanksgiving holiday is dulling the press volume.
I
> have heard nothing firm from either one, though I have received some
chatty
> press from each. As I said - nothing firm, all anti-German.
Well my good news is they are both speaking to me again and it definitely
isn't anti German.
Message from England to France and Russia
Gentlemen -
I have heard - from you, Eric - of a likely German HEL - DEN, which will
mean F NTH will have to order NTH s SKA - DEN.
Eric, are you supporting DEN - KIE? Is there anything else we need to go
over?
I am completely exhausted - probably shouldn't be writing press right now.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony
> Well my good news is they are both speaking to me again and it definitely
> isn't anti German.
I am pleased to hear it. Of course, what they write me isn't anti-English.
;-)
Ben
Message from Master to all
Players,
I'm extending the deadline by a week at a player's request.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from Germany to England
>Of course, what they write me isn't anti-English.>
The gest of my press was that they were actually talking to me. France hasnt
since 1901, Russia didnt last year.
Anyway there is not much else to say, I have stated my case it's up to you.
All I can do is decide who to favour and who not to favour should I bow out.
Personally I believe in letting one become as strong as possible. That would
have to be France. So I would let him keep Holland and Take MUN. My mind
isnt made up yet.
Russia mentioned you and him discussed HEL - DEN supported by KIE and vice
versa and how to counteract it.
Also that he would support you to KIE allowing for you to take KIE & DEN.
Personally I think your best bet is keep DEN and go for Norway. It may be
your last chance.
As you were not really forthcoming on that point I can only conclude that
you dont believe me. My French option is the one I am leaning to right now.
I will sit out the game as an observer and be joined by you shortly
thereafter.
I get the feeling from discussions that FR feel they have made the most of
the bye gone years. I feel a stab is coming. I would have been wuite happy
to let you keep DEN whilst I retook Holland. If ERG are all ganged up
against me then it doesnt really matter. All I can do once again is ensure
that only one gets maximum profit out of a three way attack on me.
The sooner all three powers collide and get entangled the better. One of
them will then be appointed the next target.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
You may receive this twice; I had to send it from web mail as my office network mail is acting hinky:
I sneaked into the office today & am away from your last press to me. So it is not duplicated here, and I am responding to a couple of points I remember, but no doubt I am overlooking some.
Concerning Russia's proposal to support me into KIE, he mentioned that option last phase. I do not know what his intentions are as of this writing.
Concerning why I have not been as forthcoming about my *intentions* as I had been earlier, I am trying to become a better player by being alittle /less/ forthright concerning my larger scale plan. It seems a pretty straightforward practice for me to write this way to you - you present me a couple of tactical/diplomatic options involving me setting up against other players. They seem to make alot of sense. Then you give me some portion of your own moves: this phase, that you will not attack DEN. You could of course be lying, and I of course could reject your advice. That is diplomacy, and it is also for now a working relationship.
Now I choose one or the other - either to attack you again in some way, or to take your advice and push against Russia. If I tell you I will attack Russia, the information is to you, useless, because I would tell you that either way. But I can tell you, I believe Russia's position in this game is right now stronger than anyone else's, ahead of France's even, because of Russia's proximity to the stalemate line and reasonably secure borders.
I will say also, I am trying to get better by observing your press, and I will be interested later to see whether you and the observers thought I was getting better or worse as the game went on.
Certainly this is the most challenging board I have ever "sat" at, and I expect my play will change even during the game as a result. I hope it is for the better. . .
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben,
> Concerning Russia's proposal to support me into KIE, he mentioned that
option last phase. I do not know what his intentions are as of this
writing.>
OK, I hear you. He mentioned to me that the move to KIE was discusssed for
this turn. At the moment his moves suggetions to me are hel - nth and attack
sil so that he can disband and rebuild in STP. A strange rewuest indeed.
> You could of course be lying, and I of course could reject your advice.
That is diplomacy, and it is also for now a working relationship.
I understand. But my game style always involves looking beyond the current
year and gains. Russia is very strong right now. He and Turkey are doing
fine down south. He has no worrys there. He doesnt really want to see a
strong France or England. There is not much he can do about France and that
is where I can annoy him or drive him to despair by giving Holland and MUN
to France. Once Austria is gone Russia will be on nine, this leaves him 12
down south or 9 in Germany and England to gain his last nine from.
His main concern right now must be that France gets Holland and MUN and you
take DEN and NWY. Thats the fear I have to play on. I have told him I wont
take DEN and that would allow you to take Norway too. I also told him I
would not attack Holland or defend MUN but actually support BUR into MUN by
moving MUN to TYR.
In return I have asked him not to attack Berlin. There is not much I can
offer him, only threats.
As for France, I have pushed him to keep Holland, take MUN and push MAR -
SPA and MAO - IRI and build a fleet in BRE. He ofcourse is very interested.
This brings me to England. What can I offer. All I can offer is not to
attack DEN but go for Holland instead and defend Berlin. You pick up two
builds and I go back to four. Something I can live with. If worst comes to
the worst I have all units support KIE in some way or the other. hel - den,
ruh - hol, mun and ber support kie and kie s ber. That way I am sure to be
left with one sc. I would then keep the fleet and wee what happens next year
depending on who did what this year. I have also told Russia that I may even
just have kie, mun support ber. He would have to rely on you and france to
cut support and at the same time risk you attacking him instead. Its a
tricky situation but I have to play on Frances greed, russia's worries and
your choice of options.
I dont believe that EFR getting one german sc to be in your advantage. That
still leaves you between two stronger nations once I am gone. They know you
would have to attack one of them to get ahead once I am gone.Even if you
take DEN & KIE and France gets HOL & MUN and Russia gets BER then you are
still stuck in the middle with nowhere to go.
My best bet is an allyship for you because I believe it offers something to
both. Your easiest growth lies in the north. Yopu and France can always
finsih me later. You need to break out somewhere. I cant say much more on
the issue but I suggest the following moves. den - bal (bounce). I cut sil
and move ruh - mun supported by kie. This way I get to keep ber, kie,mun.
You get den, nwy. It also means that you can break out north. With Italy
getting a build I dont see France moving after Italy once I am gone. He
would surely team up with Russia and come after you.
> Certainly this is the most challenging board I have ever "sat" at, and I
expect my play will change even during the game as a result. I hope it is
for the better. . ..
Well this game I have failed dramatically. Letting France into MUN for no
reason whatsoever was a disaster. I should have offered him the sealion in
s1901. I have made very poor moves. LORAX which you are gm-ing on the other
hand has been very draining to say the least. Tremendous diplomacy needed
and tactical moves. As you know I went from elimination to leading the board
for now. A challenging game to say the least. This one has been forced since
f1901. Bad diplomacy and moves on my part. I havent given it the attention
it needed. I hope to make up for that from this year on but it may be to
late.
All I say is look at the board, where do you go after I am gone and ERF get
their share of me?
You have no choice but to attack F or R. Russia is the best bet even then
but surely you know that the chances of RF joining up once I am gone is
greater than EF or ER joining up. At the moment my money is on Russia to
solo. As any scenario suggests that Russia is eventually your best target I
say take my friendship now. Keep DEN (I would rather regain Holland and an
ally that retake DEN and leave Holland in French hands) and push for Norway
now whilst you can. It will be your last chance this game. I will broadcast
an EFR just for fun but dont take it to seriously ;-)
Message from Germany to England, France, and Russia
OK guys this is how I stand following talks, suggestions and requests
following talks with all three of you.
My most likely moves are thus;
f hel - nth (cutting support for attack on Nwy)
a kie - den (cutting support for attack on swe)
a mun - tyr
a ruh s French army bur - mun
a ber - kie (if everyone is attacking me then I would like in on the action,
kiel will never suspect an attack from berlin)
The above scenario allows Russia to selfbounce in Sweden or attack and take
Berlin or SUpport ENgland into KIE.
It allows France to keep Holland and take MUN with my support or allows
Russia or France to support the other into MUN. England gets to keep Denmark
and I get to attack surprise attack myself.
Any request for alternative moves are welcome.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Once again you write a note I could take two days to ponder. . .
Let me start at the end & write more another time:
> Keep DEN (I would rather regain Holland and an
> ally that retake DEN and leave Holland in French hands) and push for
Norway
> now whilst you can. It will be your last chance this game. I will
broadcast
> an EFR just for fun but dont take it to seriously ;-)
Let me say, a quick elimination of *you* is as bad for *me*, as a quick
elimination of *me* is bad for *you*. Reading between the lines of your
press I think this is correct.
If you issue the orders you described in the group press & I decided to
attack NWY, as you recommended, it would be the end of me & the end of you.
I am telling you, I am considering your recommendation. If you screw me in
favor of Russia it will be your own undoing, I think. So when you say,
don't take your group press orders too seriously, what you mean is, you
will not actually be entering those orders, because they are anti-English,
and by leading to the end of England, they simplify the board and firm up
the FR, which is bad for you.
Do I understand you correctly? Will you indeed cut those supports as
indicated, making it impossible for me to work as the enemy of your
enemies?
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Tony is now telling me that you are planning MAO - IRI, which I assume
means, he has proposed it and you are feeding him some line of garbage.
As I see it, you are benefitting considerably from the EF; I hope you would
not think of casting it off for the one or two dots you would have to gain
from stabbing me, when instead I can keep Germany and Russia at bay while
you focus on pushing East.
What are you hearing from Russia? Has he asked for MUN?
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Did Erik mention to you a bounce in WES?
Happy Thanksgiving.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
First of all let me apologise for the spelling, its not because I am dutch
but because I never go back and check what I write or how I spell it.
>So when you say, don't take your group press orders too seriously, what
you mean is, you
will not actually be entering those orders>
Correct
>because they are anti-English, and by leading to the end of England, they
simplify the board and firm up
the FR, which is bad for you.>
The FR is already on and thats bad for both of us.
> indicated, making it impossible for me to work as the enemy of your
enemies?>
I hope you are just that. I hope you see once I am gone then that leaves you
in the middle. Now you can escape into scandinavia. Your good fortune is my
good fortune right now. I will lose one SC anyway. I would rather lose DEN
to you than Holland and MUN to France and Berlin to Russia.
You are the only one who can not only save me but also yourself. That's my
good fortune. I really do believe this will be the last year you will be
able to attack Scandinavia. I dont for a minute believe France/Russia would
allow you to take two builds. I would, I wouldn't be concerned about you
keeping Denmark and taking Norway.
If you do decide to work with me then I ask that you bounce Russia in BAL.
He will use that to support SIL - BER.
He wont move it anywhere else so it is a safe bounce and stops him from
building.
Message from Italy to England
> Did Erik mention to you a bounce in WES?
>
No...
Should I expect one.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> > Did Erik mention to you a bounce in WES?
> >
>
> No...
>
> Should I expect one.
Maybe. If (a) you go to WES and (b) he goes to WES.
Right now I'd lay even money on (a) and (b), both.
I would rather you get the jump on him than the other way around, but he
hasn't told me anything directly.
Ben
Message from England to England
I cannot understand why FR would collectively not write me. I had been
uncertain about what course to take, but the fact that Eric & Erik have not
written is making it easier.
I had hoped I could get at least one to stick with me but I am thinking
that's not, for now, going to happen.
If orders were due tonight I would order the attack on NWY. There is I
think a 50/50 shot Tony will cut the support as he'd said he would in his
EFR press; it's what happened /last/ time he broadcast his intentions but
issued a private promise to me. This time I do not think he will survive
very long if he does hang me out to dry, so I am inclined to risk believing
him.
*sigh*
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Sorry about Denver - I had thought you guys were due to clean their clocks.
I hope you had a good time at the game, anyway.
> Subject: USTX:c2 - F1903M Press from G to EFR
Tony's group press tells me that, if he is to be believed, we can follow up
with BAL s DEN - KIE, and NTH s SKA - DEN, as we'd discussed. I might as
soon as next year be in a good position to start pushing in another
direction, depending on whether Germany reclaims HOL. Which would not be
what he described, but is certainly a possibility.
What do you think?
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I sneaked into the office today & am away from your last press to me. So it
is not duplicated here, and I am responding to a couple of points I
remember, but no doubt I am overlooking some.
Concerning Russia's proposal to support me into KIE, he mentioned that
option last phase. I do not know what his intentions are as of this
writing.
Concerning why I have not been as forthcoming about my *intentions* as I had
been earlier, I am trying to become a better player by being alittle /less/
forthright concerning my larger scale plan. It seems a pretty
straightforward practice for me to write this way to you - you present me a
couple of tactical/diplomatic options involving me setting up against other
players. They seem to make alot of sense. Then you give me some portion of
your own moves: this phase, that you will not attack DEN. You could of
course be lying, and I of course could reject your advice. That is
diplomacy, and it is also for now a working relationship.
Now I choose one or the other - either to attack you again in some way, or
to take your advice and push against Russia. If I tell you I will attack
Russia, the information is to you, useless, because I would tell you that
either way. But I can tell you, I believe Russia's position in this game is
right now stronger than anyone else's, ahead of France's even, because of
Russia's proximity to the stalemate line and reasonably secure borders.
I will say also, I am trying to get better by observing your press, and I
will be interested later to see whether you and the observers thought I was
getting better or worse as the game went on.
Certainly this is the most challenging board I have ever "sat" at, and I
expect my play will change even during the game as a result. I hope it is
for the better. . .
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Frankly, I didn't expect to take Holland and get kicked out
> of Ruhr. Not in
> the plans, as far as I saw them. Still, it is an interesting
> position, and
> if I can hold them both, then it isn't a bad outcome. I'm willing to
> consider Hol S Den - Kiel, and it's encouraging to see that
> Russia moved
> War - Sil. Could you perhaps order Nth - Hel to cut some
> support? If Kiel
> is dislodged and Hel is bumped, we could end up cutting
> Germany down to
> three centers. Heck, with Russia in Sil and Bal, maybe even two.
Yeah, we'll see. I will probably be able to tap HEL from NTH - it depends
on what we hear from Russia. In the long run I am thinking HOL should be an
English center, as we push west I think it makes sense positionally, and it
will put us alittle closer to balance. We can discuss that next year,
though.
> Mao is indeed there to deal with Andy. A bounce in Wes is not
> a bad idea --
> perhaps I will propose it. He's definitely on a tear now, with Serbia
> bumping him up to six. I have maybe a turn left before I
> really have to consider dealing with him.
I agree. Let me know what he says about the bounce.
Tony's new thing is to promise me of an FR alliance that will squeeze me
out. I don't think this will come to pass, as it so clearly benefits Russia
more then it benefits France. Consider the fact that the East is unfolding
into an IR. If the West were to unfold into an FR, well, you do the math.
Russia is big & poised to grow bigger; it seems to me it is in your best
interest that there is an *EF* inside the EFR.
Anyway, as I said, I don't think you'd do it, because I don't think you
would *want to*, but in case you were thinking along the same lines as Tony,
there's my 2c.
Happy Thanksgiving, if appropriate.
Ben
Message from France to all
Folks --
Sorry if I haven't been responding to press, but I was away for
Thanksgiving. My girlfriend's parents don't have dial-up, much less
broadband, so I was kind of in the stone ages for a few days there. I will
get back to you all later today.
Erik
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
*yawn*
When was the last time you heard from Eric/Russia? Is he the one who is
away?
Ben
Message from Italy to England
I havent heard from Eric since Saturday.
I am the one on the road.
I will be back on Thursday. I didnt think I would have connectivity here,
but I do.
Andy
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I'm a couple of responses behind.
>Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic game, and under
>cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even though I did.
>The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to go. . . :-(
Hah! Yeah, we stayed to the bitter end yesterday -- and it was bitter! Even
watched Plummer down the last ball. In the rain. While I'm still sick. But
it was fun, and the Raiders did have a chance, even though they blew it
several times. Your team made the rest of my family unhappy (all Niners fans).
>I hadn't mentioned - I like the Raiders more now that Romanowski is gone.
Yeah, that was a hard one. :)
> > The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you
> ending
> > up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
> > when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season).
>
>It wasn't clear. On tactical matters I would appreciate you being *very
>clear* with your preferences, as I really aim to please, but I'm
>thickheaded. Though. . .
Fair enough. I will endeavor to be clearer. I can see how the cryptic "for
selfish and probably self-evident reasons" doesn't really spell things out
clearly. Knowing that I had
[snippage]
>This is interesting because it means NTH will have to support SKA - DEN
>instead of tapping HEL. Offer him the support. Just don't give it.
Right. My point was that if I offer him support, it doesn't really matter
which move I offer to support, since we'll be able to tell how to counter
his moves -- it just requires that he be expecting support. I think it
would be better for us if Kie was the mover, because then he can't support
Kie in place, but I don't want to be too pushy about trying to force him to
move one unit or the other. And we'll see, he hasn't confirmed his request yet.
>If you would share this scrap of intelligence - the request for support
>for HEL - DEN - it will permit me to explain why I have to order NTH s SKA
>- DEN. After all, if SKA - DEN does not succeed, I do not claim the dot.
I can do this, but FYI, I have been offline since my last press to you.
Erik and I did exchange some brief press about how Den and Hol may split
Tony's attention. So while I haven't said anything to him yet, I think he
will see the validity of this argument before I talk with him.
> > Subject: USTX:c2 - F1903M Press from G to EFR
>Tony's group press tells me that, if he is to be believed, we can follow up
>with BAL s DEN - KIE, and NTH s SKA - DEN, as we'd discussed. I might as
>soon as next year be in a good position to start pushing in another
>direction, depending on whether Germany reclaims HOL. Which would not be
>what he described, but is certainly a possibility.
I was only online for non-work stuff briefly, so haven't really processed
his message. I haven't heard anything from Tony that would indicate that
he's given up on asking for support to Den (though I haven't sent anything
agreeing to it yet either), so I suspect that message is meant more for
your and Erik's benefit than mine. Then again, with not being around, maybe
something broke with his and Erik's relationship? I'm just not sure. In any
case, whether or not what he's said is the truth, it would work with our
discussed moves, just as it would work if he's moving Hel-Den. The only
thing that would change our moves is if he asks for support for Kie-Den
instead of Hel. (See above for some discussion of this).
--- Eric
Message from Germany to England
Russia insists that you are still asking for the support of DEN - KIE.
All I am asking is that you cut support from BAL. Russia says he will be supporting KIE - DEN.
Something I doubt very much. We shall see. As stated my moves are not aimed at Denmark. But dont expect Russian support to kiel. I still believe it will be FR against you after I am gone.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Russia insists that you are still asking for the support of DEN - KIE.
> All I am asking is that you cut support from BAL. Russia says
> he will be supporting KIE - DEN.
> Something I doubt very much. We shall see. As stated my moves
> are not aimed at Denmark. But dont expect Russian support to
> kiel. I still believe it will be FR against you after I am gone.
Yeah, I finally heard from him again too. No doubt you are right about the
FR.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Ben, lie if you have to but say you will be cutting support from BAL.
I need something if only a lie to base my decions on.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Ben, lie if you have to but say you will be cutting support from BAL.
> I need something if only a lie to base my decions on.
Um, ok, I'll be cutting support from BAL, but I'm not sure what I'll be
doing with any of my *other* units. No rush, my friend, the deadline is
still a week away. . .
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> I'm a couple of responses behind.
No sweat. I figured it was the holiday season & all.
> >Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic
> game, and under
> >cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even
> though I did.
> >The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to
> go. . . :-(
>
> Hah! Yeah, we stayed to the bitter end yesterday -- and it
> was bitter! Even
> watched Plummer down the last ball. In the rain. While I'm
> still sick. But
> it was fun, and the Raiders did have a chance, even though
> they blew it
> several times. Your team made the rest of my family unhappy
> (all Niners fans).
I should think *their* team made them unhappy. Talk shows Monday morning
were more focussed on the collapse of the Niners than the quality play of
Baltimore. Niners, with every reason to leave it all on the field, played
like garbage. And left something else on the field, instead. Apologies to
the Niners fans in the peanut gallery. I do not approve of student athletes
(or their coaches) running up a score, but in the pros, I do not think it is
such a big deal, though mildly distasteful.
What are you hearing from Tony?
And from Erik?
While we can analyze the position together, we are not in a vacuum. . .
I have heard nothing from Erik in awhile, and Tony of course writes me
thrice a day telling me FR will come and kill me when he is gone. I am not
*too* worried about this, as I think I am useful to you without being a
threat, whereas if France keeps growing, the west will be resolved quickly
enough that it will be difficult for you to solo, further down the road.
Also we have good (& regular) press, also I think we have a good feel for
each other diplomatically, also at my small size I am not particularly
threatening. *Especially* if you support me into KIE, in which case I will
be (a) in your debt, and perhaps more importantly, (b) out of SKA.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I am absolutely considering DEN - BAL, as you've requested, but I wonder what you think of DEN - SWE.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Two thoughts;
1 - If DEN is somehow to get dislodged then I am sure you would want to
retreat to Sweden
2 - If Norway is to fall then Russia surely knows that that the Norwegian
army cannot do anything else other than move to Sweden.
If I were him and in doubt as to your motives I would push Norway to Sweden
and go for Berlin with BAL and SIL.
If he in his wildest dreams believes that EG are working together then
NWY-SWE is a must. So you would only bounce.
He wouldnt want you taking Norway and pushing Denmark to Sweden with me
regaining Denmark.
I see no other move than Norway to Sweden (If Russia doesnt trust you).
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I still owe you mail. I'm waaay behind on my hobbies as compared to RL stuff
(I know, Dip is important and all, but it still counts as a hobby).
I'm responding to your message from memory, so if I miss or mis-state any
points, please point that out.
What am I hearing from Germany and France?
Well, Tony has thrown around all sorts of ideas -- Hel-Den I told you about.
After his broadcast he sent me a message saying that's really how he's going
to move, and he'd like support for Kie-Den. He also threw out the possibility
of offering to support me to Den. I think either of the first two work for
us. I would not trust him to support me to Den even if he actually offers it
(so far he's just raised the idea). (There are other reasons why I think it
would be a bad idea for me to go for Den, but since I can't get past trusting
him to support the move, I don't need to consider those concerns at this
time.)
He (Tony) has also made it clear that he's shopping for his best offer, which
is no surprise. What's he offering you?
I haven't heard anything from Erik recently. Somewhat worrisome at this
point, given that it sounds from Tony's press that he *has* been talking with
Erik. Added to the fact that Tony's moves all indicate that he won't be
contesting Hol, I'm not sure what to make of Erik's silence. Especially given
that he's not talked to me about Mun after pushing so hard to see me take
Sil.
Oh -- found your message:
> I have heard nothing from Erik in awhile, and Tony of course writes me
> thrice a day telling me FR will come and kill me when he is gone. I am not
> *too* worried about this, as I think I am useful to you without being a
> threat,
As I've tried to spell out, when I chose not to build in StP I think I made
my leaning toward ER clear. Yes, you would be trusting me not to form an FR
(or GR). Similarly, I'm trusting you not to form a GE. All are possible,
though for reasons we've discussed, and I've written about below (I'm writing
this out of order) I think they're not as good for either of us.
> whereas if France keeps growing, the west will be resolved quickly
> enough that it will be difficult for you to solo, further down the road.
Solo! Heck, with my recent results I'm worried about survival still. (In my
last game as Russia I was larger than I am here and was ultimately
eliminated). But your strategic point is valid. Even moreso, I don't need any
English dots to actually solo if it comes to that. FWIW, my view on solos is
to shoot for a strong draw position, and hope the other players screw stuff
up or piss each other off rather than trying to force a win. See VGFP2017 for
a good example of this -- I did end up soloing, but I spent most of my time
trying really hard to help France try to secure a place in a 3WD, giving him
centers I could easily have taken. Eventually, Germany pressed him so hard he
decided to throw to me. So with or without considering solos, I'm not likely
to do anything to press you until and unless your situation gets to the point
that you want me to as a threat to the others.
Mind you, I'm far from predicting that I'm going to come close to a solo, but
I thought that would be useful background info for you if you are worried I'm
going to try to grab all your dots.
> Also we have good (& regular) press, also I think we have a good feel for
> each other diplomatically,
Absolutely. I play towards the players I'm comfortable with much more than
the position that is necessarily strongest. Which is why I had no problem
with you attacking Swe last Fall given our agreements, and why I ultimately
chose to not build a fleet in StP (or Sev for that matter). I think from a
purely tactical point of view those could be considered mistakes (and I'm
dying to see what (if anything) the observers said about those choices). But
I definitely believe that good, productive diplomacy will win out over good
tactics in every case except maybe the late end-game.
> also at my small size I am not particularly threatening.
Threatening is always a relative thing. I agree that I won't win sympathy
points from any other players about the "English threat", but you could hurt
me if you chose to -- especially if I *don't* work with you. Perhaps not kill
me, but throw a significant wrench into my position, and turn someone else
(probably France?) into the board leader. Don't underestimate my willingness
to be flexible just because I have more units than you do!
I would also point out that there's an inverse piece to you being "not
particularly threatening" here too. Erik is in MAO and is looking to gain a
build if we believe Tony's broadcast and press to me. If Erik moves to
Iri/Lon and builds in Bre, he's a big threat to you. Whereas I am unlikely to
pick up any builds (though of course anything is possible), and even if I do,
it would be several seasons before anything I built would be able to be a
threat to you. Essentially, our separation (the nice ER buffer you've
referred to a couple of times) is good for both of us. I would also point out
that every unit I lose gives Erik that much stronger an advantage over you in
Germany (both directly and because of who I'd be inclined to help) which in
turn leads to French builds that are likely to come after you.
> *Especially* if you support me into KIE, in which case I will
> be (a) in your debt, and perhaps more importantly, (b) out of SKA.
I think (b) is definitely more important at this stage. I don't expect people
to do things because they are "in my debt". I do expect that helping you into
Kie will buy me goodwill (which is important) and will help further ER
cooperation, but I don't expect to have that lead to you "puppetting" for me,
or doing things that go counter to your best interests. So I am definitely
looking for ways to make ER make ongoing sense for both of us. I came to you
early with the promise of supporting you to Kie because I think it helps both
of us. It is real ER cooperation, it gets you builds (which makes it worth
your while), it moves you away from me, and it keeps Tony and Erik in check.
I'm actually now looking at what to do once you are in Kie and Den. The
challenge is going to be getting you a presence on the mainland. F Kie
doesn't project a lot of force for you into the lowlands, but I'm hoping that
you getting builds now will give you a good start towards that presence. As
with England proper, I really don't need to get more than one or two German
dots to have a secure northern position.
What's your take on going forward? I'm thinking gettign you in Kie/Den and me
in Ber, while I move my nothern units back to more defensive positions. You
focus on Germany/France (with my help as required) I focus on the south. My
point is to make it clear that my goal is to make it worth your while to
continue with ER. If I'm missing important elements that would make ER work
for you, please let me know.
I hope this all makes sense. I'm writing this message like one sentence at a
time between phone calls and other work stuff. If it's self-contradictory,
stupid, unacceptable, unclear or any such, please let me know.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Tony is clearly working you over the way he is working me over, too. He
told me as well that he's been hearing good things from Erik (and from you,
too), though my guess is, he continues to hear nothing from Erik but is
desparate to create friction.
I suspect I've gotten as much press from Erik as anyone has this game and I
haven't heard a peep in some time, so I'm not too worried about it.
> He (Tony) has also made it clear that he's shopping for his best offer,
which
> is no surprise. What's he offering you?
Survival beyond the FR Of Doom. He wants me to attack Scandinavia, of
course, which I will not do, as he has lied to me pretty much every phase
since S'01, so I would just as soon not count on him as a long-term
partner, when I have other choices available.
> I haven't heard anything from Erik recently. Somewhat worrisome at this
> point, given that it sounds from Tony's press that he *has* been talking
with
> Erik.
I do not believe him.
> Added to the fact that Tony's moves all indicate that he won't be
> contesting Hol, I'm not sure what to make of Erik's silence. Especially
given
> that he's not talked to me about Mun after pushing so hard to see me take
> Sil.
Erik's press is on-again, off-again, as you will recall from C1. I suspect
Tony permitted the shot at HOL in order to deny builds to the rest of us,
if he thought he could. Creating an imbalance among the attacking allies,
and all that.
[snippage - I agree with you on everything in here, take no offense that I
clipped it from the response]
> I would also point out that there's an inverse piece to you being "not
> particularly threatening" here too. Erik is in MAO and is looking to gain
a
> build if we believe Tony's broadcast and press to me. If Erik moves to
> Iri/Lon and builds in Bre, he's a big threat to you. Whereas I am
unlikely to
> pick up any builds (though of course anything is possible), and even if I
do,
> it would be several seasons before anything I built would be able to be a
> threat to you. Essentially, our separation (the nice ER buffer you've
> referred to a couple of times) is good for both of us. I would also point
out
> that every unit I lose gives Erik that much stronger an advantage over
you in
> Germany (both directly and because of who I'd be inclined to help) which
in
> turn leads to French builds that are likely to come after you.
I am a bit worried about this. I am thinking, a fall stab of MAO - NAO (or
IRI) *if I get builds* will not be too painful, as surely he knows. So I
am hopeful he will push south, as I've been urging him.
> I think (b) is definitely more important at this stage. I don't expect
people
> to do things because they are "in my debt". I do expect that helping you
into
> Kie will buy me goodwill (which is important) and will help further ER
> cooperation, but I don't expect to have that lead to you "puppetting" for
me,
> or doing things that go counter to your best interests. So I am definitely
> looking for ways to make ER make ongoing sense for both of us. I came to
you
> early with the promise of supporting you to Kie because I think it helps
both
> of us. It is real ER cooperation, it gets you builds (which makes it worth
> your while), it moves you away from me, and it keeps Tony and Erik in
check.
Sounds good. Debt is not something to be ignored, either; consider that
Tony appears to be a player for whom good will is without value. And he
has surrounded himself with enemies. . .
> I'm actually now looking at what to do once you are in Kie and Den. The
> challenge is going to be getting you a presence on the mainland. F Kie
> doesn't project a lot of force for you into the lowlands, but I'm hoping
that
> you getting builds now will give you a good start towards that presence.
As
> with England proper, I really don't need to get more than one or two
German
> dots to have a secure northern position.
This is true.
> What's your take on going forward? I'm thinking gettign you in Kie/Den
and me
> in Ber, while I move my nothern units back to more defensive positions.
You
> focus on Germany/France (with my help as required) I focus on the south.
My
> point is to make it clear that my goal is to make it worth your while to
> continue with ER. If I'm missing important elements that would make ER
work
> for you, please let me know.
No, you've got it.
> I hope this all makes sense. I'm writing this message like one sentence
at a
> time between phone calls and other work stuff. If it's self-contradictory,
> stupid, unacceptable, unclear or any such, please let me know.
:-)
Tut, tut. The only obvious omission was football.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Two thoughts;
> 1 - If DEN is somehow to get dislodged then I am sure you
> would want to
> retreat to Sweden
>
> 2 - If Norway is to fall then Russia surely knows that that
> the Norwegian army cannot do anything else other than move to Sweden.
You make a strong case. Forget I asked.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
No doubt real life is catching up to you, and we have plenty of time before
the deadline for you to look things over. So I do not mind waiting for you
to catch a breath and write when you get a chance to sit in a chair & think
Dip thoughts.
*But* Russia is getting nervous over your silence & I would appreciate you
shooting out a quick er group press, something to the effect of, you will
support DEN - KIE, something like that; I'm really not looking for much, but
I don't want to give Eric an incentive to go over to the dark side. . .
Ben
Message from England to England
Well, the press from Russia is comforting. Everything Tony writes concerning the danger of an FR is of course true, but I am incline to take the risk of continuing to work with Russia, rather than the risk of discarding that peaceful border for the quick gain of NWY.
I also think Tony is making up that he's received significant press from France. I bet Erik's silence isn't easing Andy's mind at all. . .
Anyway if Russia is faithful and France is not, I have a decent chance of weathering that storm for awhile. Hopefully holding the border for a couple of seasons, which whould give Andy a good exposed western med.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Answering another of your questions from yesterday:
Concerning tacitcs, how to proceed from fleets in DEN and KIE, it would depend on whether Germany had captured HEL - HOL. If he had, and IF was in open war, I would have to consider attacking France immediately. Otherwise I would shoot for HEL and negotiate for an English HOL, I think.
I agree the goal would be the insertion of an English army on the mainland.
This is the point at which, if you have a preference, you should tell me what it is. ;o) I have no attachment to the plan just expressed and am floating it only as a trial balloon.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
I am having sort of a running dialog with Andy, and I would like to know, what would you like me to encourage him to do?
Hope all is well with you - of course I worry for you as for me, a smaller power trapped between two larger ones.
Best wishes & good luck.
Ben
Message from Turkey to England
Talking with Andy, huh. Good deal. Just let me know if you think he's
coming after me sooner or later. I'm fairly sure it's sooner, but if you
have better info, that'd be great.
jason
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Talking with Andy, huh. Good deal. Just let me know if you think he's
> coming after me sooner or later. I'm fairly sure it's sooner, but if you
> have better info, that'd be great.
Actually I had thought he was attacking France, though it's possible he is
moving in both directions at once. . .
Good luck, if you're right.
Ben
Message from Turkey to England
Heading west? That's strange - he tried to move his fleets to Alb and
Ion last turn. Doesn't seem consistent.
Ah, well, either way.
jason
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Heading west? That's strange - he tried to move his fleets to Alb and
> Ion last turn. Doesn't seem consistent.
Well, it's not totally farfetched, considering (a) he is at war with
Austria as well, and (b) whatever he was *trying* to do, his position could
go either way *now*. But it's not like Andy exactly tells me what he's
thinking, either - I'm trying to read between the lines here - so as you
say:
> Ah, well, either way.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Curiously Erik is /still/ silent. Well, we will see.
(a) Have you heard from him, and
(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
Thanks.
Ben
Message from England to England
Well, I am not pleased by the recent silence, but there it is. Perhaps
things will pick up as the deadline nears.
My press to Turkey about Italy heading to France was designed to be a tip
passed along to France, of course. It was pretty ham-handed, and I do not
think it worked, but I don't think it hurt, anyway. My press to Andy
started out as a sincere effort to do some research, asking him whether
Erik had inquired about the bounce in WES, but I tried to take advantage of
Andy's response. I tried to use a lighter touch than with Jason, of
course, but in both cases I can't help but feel I missed my mark. The
archive will tell the tale. . .
While on the subject of Andy, I wonder whether he's written to himself
once. He didn't at all, if I remember correctly, in C1, which disappointed
me at the time.
I am once bitten by each Eric and Tony. Strategically I /think/ Tony is
correct that my fall would be bad for him. *But* as you all know Tony and
I are speaking different languages - yes, I mean figuratively - and I am
not at all confident that he sees the board the same way I do. On the
other hand, Eric is a player more like myself - more sophisticated, I
think, but at least in a similar mold - long term, definitely the
preferable choice. Between the two, if *I* was Germany, I would probably
sincerely reach out to England, and if *I* was Russia I might /attack/
England. But I am not Germany, and I am not at all confident that Tony
thinks as I do. So I am treating it short term as pretty much a 50/50 shot
(of course if they collaborate it's a 0/100 shot - not worth adding a
separate calculation), so I will look long term and likely order to KIE and
DEN. My earlier stated preference for Tony was based on what I thought
/then/ was a soon-to-fall deadline.
Ben
Message from France to England
Ben:
My apologies for the long silence. I can now report firsthand that this is
one of the nastiest flu seasons in years. I'm just glad it happened to hit
me during a week with a deadline extension. I'll try to keep this to the
point for now, but I should be around pretty constantly until deadline.
Obviously, I'd like to see you use Nth to cut Hel's support, but I
understand that you might need use F Nth to support Den - Kie. Are you
also moving Ska - Den? Is there any chance that you would be willing to
order Nth - Hel? I know you'd like to see Holland in English control, but
I think that as long as we've got a chance to take German centers, we
should.
Russia has mostly been writing me to tell me to write you, so perhaps he's
truly interested in cooperation now that he has Scandanavia under control.
Of course, he's already used me to play you once ...
I'll try to hold Holland the best I can and cut support from Munich for
whatever.
Any idea what's going on elsewhere? I've been a little out of it.
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> My apologies for the long silence. I can now report firsthand that this is
> one of the nastiest flu seasons in years. I'm just glad it happened to hit
> me during a week with a deadline extension. I'll try to keep this to the
> point for now, but I should be around pretty constantly until deadline.
I remember reading some people have already died from the flu this year.
Yech.
> Obviously, I'd like to see you use Nth to cut Hel's support, but I
> understand that you might need use F Nth to support Den - Kie. Are you
> also moving Ska - Den? Is there any chance that you would be willing to
> order Nth - Hel? I know you'd like to see Holland in English control, but
> I think that as long as we've got a chance to take German centers, we
> should.
I agree that HOL should be non-German first and English second, but as I
recall Russia had intelligence that HEL - DEN was going to be the German
order, in which case I would need to order NTH s SKA - DEN.
> Russia has mostly been writing me to tell me to write you, so perhaps he's
> truly interested in cooperation now that he has Scandanavia under control.
> Of course, he's already used me to play you once ...
Yes, yes. Still I am inclined to throw my lot that way one more time. As
I've commented to the observers - I am once bitten by Tony and once bitten
by Eric. I am hopeful Eric will play it straight now that he has his
buffer, like you say.
> I'll try to hold Holland the best I can and cut support from Munich for
> whatever.
Sounds good.
> Any idea what's going on elsewhere? I've been a little out of it.
People are being pretty quiet. You make Andy nervous but I don't know
whether it's something you need to press immediately - you will have to
make that call.
My guess is, T thinks there is an RT and I thinks there is an IR.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Any last minute thoughts?
Ben
Message from England to England
Eric -
Promise me the Raiders will roll over like that for us next week.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Yeah....Erik is coming for me.
But there isnt a thing in the world I can do about it.
He is basically going to collapse my position, so that the Russian attack
on Turkey goes off like clockwork and it collapses my position, the
Russian will be at probably 12 or so by 05'.
I would urge you to tell him that this is a foolish way to go.
thanks
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Your Pitkisser colleague Doug Moore just soloed in '07 in Oobleck, on DEDO. As Russia.
> Yeah....Erik is coming for me.
I thought he might be. :-(
> But there isnt a thing in the world I can do about it.
Hm. I know I've offered before & you haven't taken me up on it - if you need me to pass something along to one of your neighbors in the East, let me know. Particularly with regards to Austria, I may be able to bend his ear, though I don't think he would do anything obviously pro-Italian.
> He is basically going to collapse my position, so that the Russian attack
> on Turkey goes off like clockwork and it collapses my position, the
> Russian will be at probably 12 or so by 05'.
Ah. I should introduce him to Doug.
> I would urge you to tell him that this is a foolish way to go.
I will try.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> Your Pitkisser colleague Doug Moore just soloed in '07 in Oobleck, on
DEDO. As Russia.
>
And a great guy. Im not surprised at all.
> > Yeah....Erik is coming for me.
> I thought he might be. :-(
He keeps making allusions toward wanting a bounce, and I have told him
catagorically that I dont want the bounce, but I know he will interpret
that as I am lying to him, and he will be going to WES.
> > But there isnt a thing in the world I can do about it.
> Hm. I know I've offered before & you haven't taken me up on it - if
you need me to pass something along to one of your neighbors in the
East, let me know. Particularly with regards to Austria, I may be able
to bend his ear, though I don't think he would do anything obviously
pro-Italian.
>
Make sure the Turk knows I am working with him.
> > He is basically going to collapse my position, so that the Russian attack
> > on Turkey goes off like clockwork and it collapses my position, the
> > Russian will be at probably 12 or so by 05'.
> Ah. I should introduce him to Doug.
Yeah.
>
> > I would urge you to tell him that this is a foolish way to go.
> I will try.
thanks
Andy
Message from England to Italy
> Make sure the Turk knows I am working with him.
I will write him. Good plan; I will let you know what he says.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
I just received an interesting communique from Andy. I am now pretty confident of IF conflict in the /very/ /near/ future, and I would urge you to let them go at each other without interfering against Andy. France is big enough, and if Russia comes down hard on you you will need such help as you can get from Andy.
I do not think you will need to decide on this point in the immediate future, but if you are thinking along these lines, please let me know so we can sort out the best global strategy. Right now the two leaders are F and R, and you and I will both do well to see their growth curtailed. . .
What do you think?
Ben
Message from Turkey to England
Well, that complicates things.
Austria has promised to support me to Ser this turn, and I was hoping to
get Gre on top of that. That would give me two builds, and better parity
with Russia. I can shift to attacking Rum if you think that's a better idea.
jason
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
>(a) Have you heard from him, and
I got a brief message from him that looks to have come in this AM, when
this one did.
>(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
I won't insult your intelligence by saying I haven't looked at the options,
but nothing about keeping Tony big or giving France a free pass in the west
looks like it would be advantageous to me. While you around Scandinavia is
scary, I like the facts that (1) you'll be moving away even if it's only
briefly, (2) that it keeps the west somewhat up for grabs and (3) you
growing will give France something to worry about. While I *do* value our
relationship, I look for moves that give a reason for both of us to be
happy. I focused most in my last messages about why I hope taking the
support to Kie is good for you, obviously I selfishly see it good for me,
too. Den-Kie (assuming you are going to take it) is my best move. If you
confirm you will be taking it, then I will confirm ordering it. Last I
heard, Tony was still asking for Kie-Den, not Hel-Den. That means there is
a chance that he will burn me and support himself in Kie, but I'll order
the support.
>Promise me the Raiders will roll over like that for us next week.
LOL! I can make no such guarantees, but I wouldn't bet against it either.
--- Eric
Message from France to England
Ben:
I think R is on the only one who truly knows whether it's RT or IR, and I
expect it's neither.
I guess as long as you're hitting Kiel, I've got a decent chance at holding
Hol anyway. And if I don't, at least I'm not down any.
Big question in my mind: Andy's plans. He doesn't want to bounce in Wes,
which is fine unless he wants to move unimpeded into Wes. Any idea what
he's up to?
Erik
Message from Germany to England
None whatsoever Ben, I am flying blind on this one. I have no idea who or what to believe. I have no coordinated moves with anyone.
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Austria has promised to support me to Ser this turn, and I
> was hoping to
> get Gre on top of that. That would give me two builds, and
> better parity
> with Russia. I can shift to attacking Rum if you think that's
> a better idea.
Actually, I do think that's a better idea. Long term an AT is more
favorable to T than an RT, which is notoriously pro-Russia. Plus you'd clip
his wings before he comes down on you first.
I'll send Austria a note trying to grease those wheels.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
I think Andy is about to get an unpleasant surprise from the west. Also I
believe the timing is perfect to split up the RT, if you think you can
manage it. My guess is, Andy is about to be *seriously* distracted from
elsewhere, and RT relations are alittle cool right now. If you can figure
out a way to take advantage, IRT would be in shambles and you would again be
on the rise.
I would recommend, if you can choose, that you work with Turkey against
Russia, who is plenty big enough already. If you can resurrect the AT
against Russia, I would consider it a favor returned.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> None whatsoever Ben, I am flying blind on this one. I have no
> idea who or what to believe. I have no coordinated moves with anyone.
Ok, this is fine, because as I understand your recommendations to me, I
don't really need your help for anything, except that you don't cut my
supports. If you do, well, we are both in trouble.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> >(a) Have you heard from him, and
>
> I got a brief message from him that looks to have come in
> this AM, when this one did.
Ah, yes. He's returned to the land of the living since I wrote this. Good
news, I guess; he seems unchanged.
> >(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
>
> I won't insult your intelligence by saying I haven't looked
> at the options,
> but nothing about keeping Tony big or giving France a free
> pass in the west
> looks like it would be advantageous to me. While you around
> Scandinavia is
> scary, I like the facts that (1) you'll be moving away even
> if it's only
> briefly, (2) that it keeps the west somewhat up for grabs and (3) you
> growing will give France something to worry about. While I
> *do* value our
> relationship, I look for moves that give a reason for both of us to be
> happy. I focused most in my last messages about why I hope taking the
> support to Kie is good for you, obviously I selfishly see it
> good for me,
> too. Den-Kie (assuming you are going to take it) is my best
> move. If you
> confirm you will be taking it, then I will confirm ordering it. Last I
> heard, Tony was still asking for Kie-Den, not Hel-Den. That
> means there is
> a chance that he will burn me and support himself in Kie, but
> I'll order the support.
I'll still get the one build & will push for KIE/HOL next year, if that
happens.
> >Promise me the Raiders will roll over like that for us next week.
>
> LOL! I can make no such guarantees, but I wouldn't bet
> against it either.
:-)
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Well Ben that does leave me with a problem, one I would obviously share.
That is if I dont cut the support from NTH then NTH could for example be
used to help France keep Holland.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Well Ben that does leave me with a problem, one I would
> obviously share.
> That is if I dont cut the support from NTH then NTH could for
> example be used to help France keep Holland.
Oh. I misunderstood you before.
Ok, as I understand it, all prior discussions are off the table. NTH will
have to be occupied, of course; you will cut that support if you must,
though I think you will regret it when you see the results.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I think R is on the only one who truly knows whether it's RT
> or IR, and I expect it's neither.
Neither yet, I agree. He will take his time.
> I guess as long as you're hitting Kiel, I've got a decent
> chance at holding
> Hol anyway. And if I don't, at least I'm not down any.
I think as long as Russia stays true to the cause, we are ok.
> Big question in my mind: Andy's plans. He doesn't want to
> bounce in Wes,
> which is fine unless he wants to move unimpeded into Wes. Any
> idea what he's up to?
I know he is very worried about you. I recently (since I wrote you) got a
press from him, and the gist of it was, he feels like he has to cover WES,
which I understand to mean, he thinks even if you now agree *not* to bounce,
he will have to be worried you will be going to WES anyway. So either way,
agreement or not, I think he is going to WES. But that is a *lot* of
reading between the lines on my part and I am not sure at all.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
>>Ok, as I understand it, all prior discussions are off the table>>
I wish there were discussions on the table. The only commitment I have in
word is that of Russia, for wha't it's worth.
I have asked that you cut BAL. I have asked that you dont help France. I
have asked that you attack Norway.
You havent commited to any suggestion just left me in the dark. At the
moment my moves I hope reflect the best possible defence taking into account
that all three of you will be hostile.
Message from Germany to England
Ben, this is how I would like to see the move come about but I doubt they
will.
I cant live on "trust me, I am the ruler of england messages".
You take norway and keep denmark and build two. Denmark does cut
support from BAL and I cut support from SIL. This to keep Berlin mine. At
the same time I try to
retake Holland.
Message from Germany to England
We still have ten hours left, I dont think you have to worry about me
informing Russia of any moves.
broadcast to g
Well as you guys can see I am still trying to get Ben onto my side. I would
much rather be saving Berlin and retaking Holland than praying for help from
France or Russia. I believe EG is the only way forward for both of us.
They have both indicated as I have pointed out that Ben has nowhere to go if
he takes two builds but to attack one of them pretty soon.
I was hoping to use this to get Ben onboard but he has to see it himself. I
dont believe France or Russia when they say Ben is pushing to be helped into
Kiel it just doesnt make sense. I dont think Russia would ever do that. It's
just a shame that Ben wont commit to anything and asks me to trust him.
The last minute press from Russia hasn't convinced me but my moves are not
made up. I still have a few hours left.
The moves I have ordered with wait status are ruh - hol supported by hel and
kie, mun support ber.
I still think that i will be screwed by RF and so will Ben.
Ben hasnt commited to any move and has just left me with a trust me message.
Thats a
shame. I would rather be attacking holland and defending berlin with some
help. I will give
it one more shot as you can see from my last press to Ben.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Ben, this is how I would like to see the move come about but
> I doubt they will.
> I cant live on "trust me, I am the ruler of england messages".
Sorry. I was reluctant to give you my specific moves. But based on your
move to SIL, taking care of my last reservation, here they are.
> You take norway and keep denmark and build two. Denmark does cut
> support from BAL and I cut support from SIL. This to keep
> Berlin mine. At the same time I try to retake Holland.
I intended all along to take Norway. I had been reluctant to order DEN -
BAL because of the possibility of BAL - BER, though if you will be cutting
SIL then I will not worry about it anymore.
Done.
Ben
Message from England to England
> Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Germany to England in 'c2':
>
> We still have ten hours left, I dont think you have to worry about me
> informing Russia of any moves.
> broadcast to g
> Well as you guys can see I am still trying to get Ben onto my
> side. I would
> much rather be saving Berlin and retaking Holland than
> praying for help from
> France or Russia. I believe EG is the only way forward for both of us.
Good lord, I must look to him like a simpleton. Maybe I am. . .
Earlier drafts of press to Tony have pointed out to him that, when I've told
him my moves, he has taken advantage. Twice, as I recall, of the two times
I've told him, to my detriment. So why would he expect me to tell him
again? Not that I won't work with him - just that the framework has to
shift. Yes, I'll work with him, no I won't tell him my exact moves.
So, he tells me the framework cannot shift. I must tell him my moves.
Sure, I can be flexible - but I don't have to be that flexible, yet.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
I had a last minute message from Russia stating that he would be supporting
me to Denmark with BAL. So this means that if he isn't lying then DEN - BAL
is safe. As you also pointed out with me cutting support from SIL then BAL -
BER supported by SIL also wont work. That's why I need BAL cut to ensure
SIL - BER supported by BAL doeesnt work either. Giving up Denmark but
gaining an ally is worth the price.
I myself and expecting him to support himself to Berlin. Probably using SIL
supported by BAL. I will definitely be cutting SIL support and going for
Holland. My definite orders are now in, wait status removed. Good luck to us
both.
Message from Austria to England
Ben,
My position is so difficult that you shouldn't expect me
to go against RT anytime soon. Simply getting Jason to
attack Italy is difficult enough, I'm not about to try to
convince him to also attack Russia.
Let's see what happen, then we can talk about my
doing anything beside trying to survive.
Philippe.
P.-S. You are hinting at a french invasion of Italy, but
since France didn't bother telling me about it, haven't
heard from him in a long time, I think it's quite possible
that he's moving against you instead.
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
What I am proposing instead is, an AT against *R* instead of I. Jason may be interested, based on press I've received from him. But perhaps not.
Either way, I am glad to see you back on your feet.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Good luck to us both.
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Here we go.
Ben
Message from England to England
This seals it:
> I had a last minute message from Russia stating that he would be supporting
> me to Denmark with BAL.
Russia is aware of NTH s SKA - DEN. So he should know that this would be a profitless stab (barring HEL - NTH). Therefore I will stick with SKA - DEN, DEN - KIE.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Batter down, lock and load. I am going in.
Message from Turkey to England
I agree AT is more favorable, but right now there's not much A. I think
I'll stick to the Ser/Gre plan for now, get my two builds, and worry
about Russia later. It's my only real way to expand for the moment.
jason
Austria: Fleet Adriatic Sea → Trieste
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Turkish Army Bulgaria → Serbia
Austria: Army Vienna SUPPORT Fleet Adriatic Sea → Trieste
England: Fleet Denmark → Kiel
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet Skagerrak → Denmark
England: Fleet Skagerrak → Denmark
France: Army Belgium SUPPORT Army Holland (*cut*)
France: Army Burgundy SUPPORT Army Belgium
France: Army Holland SUPPORT Army Belgium (*cut*)
France: Fleet Marseilles → Spain (south coast)
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Irish Sea
France: Army Paris → Gascony
Germany: Army Berlin → Silesia (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Helgoland Bight → Holland (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Kiel SUPPORT Fleet Helgoland Bight → Holland (*cut, destroyed*)
Germany: Army Munich → Silesia (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Ruhr → Belgium (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Rome → Venice
Italy: Army Serbia SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece (*cut, dislodged*)
Italy: Fleet Tunis → Ionian Sea (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Venice → Tyrolia
Russia: Fleet Baltic Sea SUPPORT English Fleet Denmark → Kiel
Russia: Army Galicia → Bohemia
Russia: Army Norway → Sweden
Russia: Fleet Rumania HOLD
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Fleet Rumania
Russia: Army Silesia → Berlin (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Ukraine → Galicia
Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea → Greece (*bounce*)
Turkey: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Constantinople → Bulgaria
Turkey: Army Bulgaria → Serbia
Turkey: Army Constantinople → Bulgaria
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