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Message from Germany to England
>I am not sure you will benefit from the wisdom of a person whose ambition
is
to survive as a one center puppet in STP.>
Thats's why you will be a 1 center puppet in PAR remember.
p.s. Did you receive my mail with suggestions?
Message from Germany to France
>When I'm one of three people in a position to grab and/or hold
your territory after this turn? Funny.>
That's what is was meant to be.
>I am concerned about Russia and
England, though, so I am, as always willing to talk. Iri is a great move,
particularly if I can be sure that the English won't get a build this
turn. Perhaps he would be willing to consider supporting you back into
Denmark just for the sake of denying the English build. He is worried
about them in Scandanvia, I believe.>
So too would I be if I were Russia. I have pressed him. I made it clear I wasnt happy with his moves but stated that this was diplomacy and I am open to suggestions. I havent heared back from him yet. If worst comes to the worst I have to decide whom I will make it difficult for to grab a german sc FE or R.
I hope there still is room for negotiations with you and or Russia. I am no threat to either and can be of good use.
Message from Germany to Russia
> You said something about it never being too late to make amends. I agree
with that philosophy, but I'm honestly at a loss for how we can do that
right now. If you have any specific ideas I'm open to suggestions.>
Well I have spoken to France, he is interested in moving on IRI. This would take some pressure off you.
He would consider the move a likely option if he was sure that England did not receive a build.
I always play the board as is, an enemy one day is an ally the next. I look for a win/win situation.
I can retake Denmark with your help. In return you receive an ally who is of no real threat.
With France in IRI and pushing SPA - MAO and building in BRE England will be forced to return and defend his home sc's. This gives you the break you need in Scandinavia.
If I get DEN back then I can help you. If you push Norway to Sweden and help support HEL to DEN and somehow convince England that you will support him to KIE (with help from NTH cutting HELand BAL supporting DEN - KIE) then his fleet in SKA can push for DEN. Offer him two builds off me. He ends up with none.
France gets to keep Holland, pushes for IRI (as you have convinced him that England wont get a build) and he builds a fleet in BRE. Your gain is that England doesnt go for Scandinavia and i cant hurt you and France is piling on the pressure in England. France will go for it if he is convinced England doesnt build. You dont lose Norway and England sdoesnt build two units. I suggest therefor SWE - NWY, SIL - PRU, BAL S HEL - DEN. This sets you up to convoy to Sweden next spring. I would also be willing to push DEN to SKA and let your fleet pass through Denmark in the spring so that we could get three fleets (EGR) on NTH for the fall move instead if need be.
Talk to France and let me know.
> I thought about using your password to submit favorable orders, but decided
> that was a bad idea. :) (That is completely a joke -- I would not do that even if I thought I could
> get away with it.)>
hahahahaha, I wasn't amazed I messed up in yahoo groups. It's the second time this month. I did the same in pinnacle-d. I have changed all passwords just to make sure. I always use the same one for all games (13 at the moment) so I had a lot of set passwords to submit. I trust the community fully and no one would indeed try it.
Funny though the mistakes that happen. The worst I hate most is getting the enbroadcast/broadcast wrong and powers receiving press they shouldnt. I now ensure I send seperate press to prevent this happening again.
Another blunder I make is sending to the wrong power. Playing 13 games where all press is usually sent around the same time is a little confusing sometimes.
Message from Observer to Observer
Message from Turkey to Italy:
*****
As for the build, that's obviously dicey. You have more units than I do,
so by that measure I need the build more. You have better leverage
against the Austrian, so it would help you there. If you build a fleet,
though, that could hurt me.
Gist of it is, I'd prefer the build, but as long as you build an army,
it won't bother me too much.
jason
*****
I can't help thinking that Jason is letting this slip far too easily. I was
encouraged by the first paragraph where he was setting out good reasons why
he should get Gre now. He could have developed this further by emphasising
the strength of Russia, build could be used against him etc, developing the
topic that Andy started.
Then he lets it all go by saying "well, as long as you don't build a fleet,
that's fine".
I think he might be signing his own death warrant here. Andy doesn't need
any more fleets to comprehensively take Turkey (should he wish to) indeed an
army would be of more use against AT, unless he is attacked by F. Turkey is
stuck between two of the three power nations at the moment, and should be
negotiating hard to achieve parity. If Jason is genuine about what he says
above, then he is lining himself up to be the meat in the IR sandwich.
Or perhaps he's being cuter than he's shown to date and is setting Italy up
to dislodge him in Serbia. Trouble is, he hasn't got the fleet power in the
Med to really be able to take on Italy upfront - he's lost that advantage,
although a double fleet build would improve that situation - but might freak
Russia a bit.
Alastair
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> Gist of it is, I'd prefer the build, but as long as you build an army,
> it won't bother me too much.
No problem. It allows me to replace it with another Austrian dot, and its
only one season, you get it next year.
thanks Jason...appreciate you understanding.
Andy
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I did get an excellent note from you yesterday. This was my response:
> Tony -
> Thanks for putting so much thought into your response. I'm
> still digging
> through it - busy day. I'll write tomorrow, if I get a chance.
>
> Ben
As promised - I will write later, if I get a chance. Busy day today, too,
and you gave me a lot to think about. We have time, for this deadline.
Ben
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
you are going to ARM this season....right?
Message from Austria to Turkey
Jason,
> What are you thinking regarding Serbia?
The short and obvious answer is that, since Andy promise truces after
truces only to keep attacking me, I wish to prevent him from profiting
of my demise and would like to support you in Serbia.
The more complex answer is that Andy's hold on you is so strong that
I can't achieve anything in this game and will soon be eliminated (there's
no balance of power in the south, except between Eric & Andy). I'm
not please that you let yourself being used that way, but my grievances
are with the master responsible for this situation, not with the pawn.
Sorry about the pawn part, but this is how I feel.
If only you had accepted my desperate plan to have you become a
major power in the south within an RT, then I wouldn't be too worried
to see Andy be successfull in the end; but with Eric in Rum, the best
you can now hope is to be a minor partner in an alliance with Russia,
with a good chance of being squeezed by RI. Believe it or not, you are
Andy's next target. France is too strong for him to take on and
Germany is allready being invaded by 3 power, wich doesn't leave
much for a fourth invader. Going after Russia would mean surrounding
you, so he might as well attack you with Russia's assistance to get the
units he need to keep France in line and insure his place in an FIR
draw.
To improve your chances of survival, I only see two options. Keep me
alive, wich you don't seem interested in, or make sure to be bigger
then Italy so you get chosen to be the third partner for the draw,
squeezing Italy between FT.
Regards,
Philippe
Message from Austria to Russia
> But overall, either way I went you wouldn't have been happy, because I was
> clearly looking out for myself at your expense, which is what motivated my
> original statement of not blaming you for your moves. I probably would have
> done something similar in your shoes.
Should I expect more of the same from you this fall?
Philippe
Message from Turkey to Austria
Yes, I'm well aware of the potential for IR. You seemed to indicate in
your first message, though, that you had a plan for me to get Ser and
Gre with your help. What specific plan did you have in mind?
jason
Message from Russia to Austria
>> But overall, either way I went you wouldn't have been happy, because I was
>> clearly looking out for myself at your expense, which is what motivated my
>> original statement of not blaming you for your moves. I probably would
have
>> done something similar in your shoes.
>
>Should I expect more of the same from you this fall?
Well, if you decide you want me to take Vie, then yes. :)
It looks to me like attacking you is only going to aid Andy. While that was
my intent last season, for the reasons I've explained previously. I have no
desire to see him do better than he has against you. Were I in Rum with my
army, I would be offering to support you back into Ser. With the fleet there,
it's not an option, so I'm not sure what we can do to directly coordinate. Do
you have any ideas? The most obvious thing to me would be for you to ask
Jason to support you into Ser, but I don't think he's going to be willing to
do that -- he's too sure that Andy's not going to contest Gre. Again, if you
are interested in Jason taking Ser, I will try to convince him. I'm just not
confident it's going to happen.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
> you are going to ARM this season....right?
If you examine my moves for the last two seasons, I think you can see that
planning on me making sound tactical moves on my own is dangerous assumption.
Can you spell out the picture you are imagining in greater detail?
Specifically, are you planning to support me to Bud from Ser? If I had the
army in Rum as anticipated I'd suggest trying for Bul from Rum, but without a
fleet to tap Bla, that won't succeed. Are you going to take Aeg or Eas and
Ion? Etc.
Thanks,
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Your suggestions sound fantastic to me. I could even imagine having you move
Ber-Sil with support so that I can disband A War (which I shouldn't have
built in the first place) and rebuild it as F StP/nc. Though that may be too
much to ask of you at this point, since then you might worry that I'd try to
walk into Ber. (I don't think that's in my best interests right now, but I
don't think there's any reason for you to trust me on that).
So I like your plan. Let me talk to England and see what I can find out from
him, too.
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Germany
I have no idea what I am trying to achieve just yet. I hope it all falls
into place by the time the moves are due. The good thing is that EFR are all
taking to me. My situation is really bad, but as the song goes "always look
on the bright side of life". Who am I kidding I am toast. I will be lucky to
stay on 3 sc's. But where there is life there is hope. It will be
interesting to see how the press develops between EFGR.
I am just trying to survive the best I can. Any insight into any moves would
be very helpful right now. I will just talk to each powers greed.
Message from Germany to Russia
Good to hear. I am sure if you sell to England that you too are a little
worried abot France and that I may throw my SC's to him you will get
Englands attention. Say that you have offered to support HOL - KIE from BAL
and that you will cut support from BER. Tell him instead of supporting the
frenchman in you will support DEN - KIE. Ask him to cut support from HEL.
This means that he can safely move SKA - DEN thus getting two builds off me
without making you an enemy. I am sure he is more than willing to have you
as an ally. He must be worried of an FR alliance right now.
Dont forget to talk to France regarding the alliance against England. Make
it clear to him that England gaining two builds off you and me is as bad for
France as it is for you.
Message from Germany to France
I have a feeling that Russia will be willing to talk about England. I could
hit Holland with everything I got and hope that ER wont cut support from
RUH, KIE, HEL. A tall order for you to achieve as I am sure they are both
worried about what to do themselves without having to worry about you
keeping Holland.
I think the FRG has more potential. Ironic that England who suggested the
western alliance in the first place would be on the receiving end instead. I
think the move to IRI along with Russia helping me set up England and by
thus saving Scandinavia offers the best for all (except England). You and
Russia have done well so far, England hasnt made much of his opportunities.
I am also sure you dont want ER running off with all the German spoils. Talk
to Russia and let me know. You could if you wish get a three way press
going.
Message from Germany to England
OK Ben, look forward to hearing from you
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Germany is showing some serious interest in working with you and I to take
out England. Granted, you can't trust Tony one whit, but he's not stupid,
either: he's got three powers bearing down on him and no local friends. If
he can use us to get out of his hole, he will. In return, we might have an
opportunity to finish off England and resume the grind against Germany.
Essentially, he'll probably want support against Den from you and a move to
Iri by me (and may also want me to abandon Hol, but let's see if we can
avoid that). What do you think?
I'll have patchy access over the holidays, but I'll write when I can.
Erik
Message from Russia to France
Well, as I said, that's why I was so hopeful that he'd jump on one of those
other plans. Alas.
From what Germany tells me, you've talked to him about MAO-Iri. In exchange,
he's approached me about trying to tie Ben up going for Kie. My plan is to
tell Ben that I've offered support (which I won't provide) to Tony for one of
Hel-Den or Kie-Den, so that we "know" how to react (e.g., if Tony "wants"
Hel-Den, then Nth S Ska-Den is the right move, whereas if Tony "wants"
Kie-Den then Ska-Den/Nth-Hel is the right move (because if Hel S Kie-Den,
Den-Kie fails unless Hel's support is cut). I think it is more likely that
Hel-Den will be believable, but frankly, I don't care what Ben chooses, so
long as it isn't Nth/Ska-Nwy!
I think this has a lot of opportunity to be successful, but it's got to be
done really carefully. We both need to interact with Ben normally, and we may
not want it to be clear to Tony how closely you and I are talking.
I'll send a three way congratulating us on the success, and laying out these
thoughts for all of us to consider together. Anything you can do to convince
Ben that because I won't be getting any builds this season, he shouldn't need
to take Nwy until after he's got Kie/Den will be appreciated. If you hear
that he is going after Nwy, please let me know so that we can try to counter
him (I could support A Kie-Den, and see if Tony will order Hel-Nth). That
way, even if he gets Nwy, the loss of Nth will hurt him enough to make it
impossible for him to continue to press Scandinavia if he wants to defend his
homeland.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
Did you say that you were actually *at* the game last Sunday? That would have
been amazing. I'm going to the game this Sunday (Broncos at Raiders). Given
how things have been going, I think maybe they have a shot to win the game.
We'll see.
---------------
The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you ending
up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season). Tony's move
of Den-Swe is actually somewhat comforting to me, because it means that you
cannot immediately take two off of me if you are leaning towards turning
north. While I'm very happy with the level of dialog we've had, and I've
already made the moves/builds that make it clear that I'm hoping for an ER
going forward, I was nonetheless worried by the fact that you weren't willing
to clear out of Ska this Spring.
On the other hand, given Tony's move, it turns out that it was important for
you to have both units in place if you still want to go for Kie and Den. We
will need to make a guess as to how Tony is going to defend. He can try to
retake Den with Hel-Den or Hel S Kie-Den. I can probably influence or divine
Tony's move choices by offering to support one or the other (Bal S Hel-Den or
Bal S Kie-Den), if we think he's liable to believe that I'd really offer the
support and tell me the truth about what he's up to. (As I left this in my
drafts folder, I see that I now have press asking for support for Hel-Den).
I'm hoping taking Den with Ska is acceptable to you, since it will make my
life going forward much more comfortable. I would guess that Nth-Hel would
make Erik happier (that is, me offering to support Kie-Den for Tony), because
it has a chance to help him if Tony tries to defend Hol instead of Hel, but
that seems the less likely move from Tony.
Let me know what you think, or if you see any other options.
Happy turkey day eve,
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Thanks for all the advice in your last message. I have already started down
several of the paths you have suggested. Luckily, I had previously promised
England that I would support Den-Kie in Fall, so hopefully he'll still want
to go through with it.
I took a slightly different approach than you suggested in discussing moves:
I asked England which move he thinks we need to cover (Hel S Kie-Den, or Kie
S Hel-Den). I think we're okay in either case. As long as he moves Den then
Kie S Hel-Den, Bal S Hel-Den and Hel-Den would overwhelm Nth S Ska-Den (or
Ska S Nth-Den). But you are right, I probably should have suggested that he
tap Hel and see what he says.
I've also asked France to tip me off if he hears about England coming after
me. If that happens, I may ask you to tap Nth while I order Bal S Kie-Den.
That should still get you Den (unless he orders Ska S Den), and will either
keep England from building, or will get you Nth, either of which are big
advantages.
On the topic of misdirected press, I am ALWAYS paranoid about doing that.
I've been lucky so far, though I did send a message that I intended for
someone in this game to a player who had the same power in another game. Much
better than the other way around though: I know at least a couple of people
in my other games are observers of this one -- sending you press intended for
a Germany in one of those games would be essentially broadcasting it by
mistake! Every second or third letter I send I have that "Oh <bleep>! Did I
address that to the right player?" kind of panic.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
After starting it, I decided a three way may or may not make sense. I haven't
initiated it yet.
I think you should hit Iri regardless. I think there is a very good chance
we'll get Ben off guard, and if he takes Sca, then his builds can come after
you with impunity he's not going to expect to get much of a slice of Germany,
you have no real fleet power at this time, and Andy's building. Andy does not
stop talking to me about how he wants to build and head west, especially
after your fleet build. Basically, I'm saying that England getting big looks
bad for both of us, and if you are going to gamble, I'd offer gambling on us
being successful.
And if we're ever in a game together again, don't let me get away without
building F StP/nc in 1902 again! :)
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Yes, I'm well aware of the potential for IR. You seemed to indicate in
> your first message, though, that you had a plan for me to get Ser and
> Gre with your help. What specific plan did you have in mind?
Simply that I support Bul-Ser. You can get Greece
simply with Aeg-Gre. With Andy's position, at most
you bounce this year and get it next year; but since
you have been working faithfully with him, there's a
good chance of your getting it this fall as he plan his
moves against me.
Philippe.
P.-S. As long as I have my fleet in Adr, there's also
an attack of Ion that can be usefull to you.
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
I'll keep this short - busy right now:
> Did you say that you were actually *at* the game last Sunday? That would
have
> been amazing.
Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic game, and under
cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even though I did.
The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to go. . . :-(
> I'm going to the game this Sunday (Broncos at Raiders). Given
> how things have been going, I think maybe they have a shot to win the
game.
> We'll see.
Broncos ain't all that and more, and the Raiders have been playing well
notwithstanding their record. It would be nice to beat an old rival, too.
I hadn't mentioned - I like the Raiders more now that Romanowski is gone.
One bad seed.
> ---------------
A nice touch.
> The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you
ending
> up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
> when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season).
It wasn't clear. On tactical matters I would appreciate you being *very
clear* with your preferences, as I really aim to please, but I'm
thickheaded. Though. . .
> On the other hand, given Tony's move, it turns out that it was important
for
> you to have both units in place if you still want to go for Kie and Den.
This is exactly why I did it. If I was going to occupy KIE and DEN in the
fall, then I would need fleets in SKA and DEN. The point was, to be able
to set up NTH - HOL and SKA - DEN and DEN - KIE, to get two centers (ok,
maybe 3, but much more likely, 2). That was my thinking - water under the
bridge now, as it has set up nicely for DEN and KIE but obviously not HOL.
> We
> will need to make a guess as to how Tony is going to defend. He can try to
> retake Den with Hel-Den or Hel S Kie-Den. I can probably influence or
divine
> Tony's move choices by offering to support one or the other (Bal S
Hel-Den or
> Bal S Kie-Den), if we think he's liable to believe that I'd really offer
the
> support and tell me the truth about what he's up to. (As I left this in my
> drafts folder, I see that I now have press asking for support for
Hel-Den).
This is interesting because it means NTH will have to support SKA - DEN
instead of tapping HEL. Offer him the support. Just don't give it.
> I'm hoping taking Den with Ska is acceptable to you, since it will make my
> life going forward much more comfortable. I would guess that Nth-Hel would
> make Erik happier (that is, me offering to support Kie-Den for Tony),
because
> it has a chance to help him if Tony tries to defend Hol instead of Hel,
but
> that seems the less likely move from Tony.
Tony will want to move from HEL because he will count on me tapping it.
And it is more important that I get to 5 right now than that Erik gets to
7. If you would share this scrap of intelligence - the request for support
for HEL - DEN - it will permit me to explain why I have to order NTH s SKA
- DEN. After all, if SKA - DEN does not succeed, I do not claim the dot.
> Let me know what you think, or if you see any other options.
You have 'em. I think we are set up nicely for me to get KIE and DEN, if
you will support. Perhaps as soon as next year I will be ready to shift
into other gears; it depends on what becomes of HOL, among other things.
Perhaps if you suggest to Tony I may be tapping HEL, he will take that as a
sign to support HEL - HOL, or something. Use your judgment.
> Happy turkey day eve,
And to you, my left coast friend. Have a great time at the game.
Ben
Message from Observer to Observer
The following c2b poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:
POLL QUESTION: Reporting of moves entered by players
has been turned on for all of 1902.
Should we keep it turned on, and how do
you feel about it?
CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Don't Care - I didn't even realize moves were being reported., 0 votes, 0.00%
- Don't Care - I like it, but could live without it., 0 votes, 0.00%
- Don't Care - I dislike it, but could live with it., 0 votes, 0.00%
- Don't Care - I have mixed feelings about it., 1 votes, 100.00%
- Don't Care - other., 0 votes, 0.00%
- Yes - I find it very helpful., 0 votes, 0.00%
- Yes - I find it very interesting., 0 votes, 0.00%
- Yes - I find it both helpful and interesting., 0 votes, 0.00%
- Yes - other., 0 votes, 0.00%
- No - I find it unhelpful., 0 votes, 0.00%
- No - I find it annoying., 0 votes, 0.00%
- No - I find it both unhelpful and annoying., 0 votes, 0.00%
- No - other., 0 votes, 0.00%
INDIVIDUAL VOTES
- Don't Care - I didn't even realize moves were being reported.
- Don't Care - I like it, but could live without it.
- Don't Care - I dislike it, but could live with it.
- Don't Care - I have mixed feelings about it.
- greg@spencersoft.com
- Don't Care - other.
- Yes - I find it very helpful.
- Yes - I find it very interesting.
- Yes - I find it both helpful and interesting.
- Yes - other.
- No - I find it unhelpful.
- No - I find it annoying.
- No - I find it both unhelpful and annoying.
- No - other.
For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/c2b
Message from Observer to Observer
I guess I missed the entire poll..
but I do actually read the moves and enjoy them. I was curious whether the
players know we receive their moves. It would be great if they all submitted
'temp' orders after moves process based on their own gut feelings or plans ..
and then make any necessary changes to their orders during or after
negotiations. It would be good for us.. and later for them... to see just what effect
discussions and diplomacy with other players had on their final decisions.
If I am not mistaken, I thought at one point during the last build stages,
Turkey had a fleet in Ank. I guess I need to check the archives to be certain.
-Lori
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I will get this out quick - Thanksgiving weekend & a busy week before;
sorry for being brief & I hope it makes some sense.
> Well Russia is becoming very powerful.
Yes.
> I was a little sceptic of the AI press to join them Especially of Italy.
The
> build didn't tally either.
I had wanted an AI to fight RT but it wasn't meant to be.
> I pressed them stating I needed to know more and questioned if they were
> really together. Austria obviously didnt trust Italy fully but he was
hoping
> for an alliance to stop the RT onslaught.As long as Italy continues to
grow
> then he hasnt much to worry about. It doesnt look as yet that France will
be
> giving him any trouble.
Not soon enough.
> I dont think Russia will want Turkey to grow, once Austria falls then
Turkey
> will be squashed between IR.
This is what Andy thinks, I'm guessing. Eric can pick & choose between RI
and RT.
> I am also expecting RF to cooporate this fall move on MUN. I have a
feeling
> Russia will ask for MUN. He will no doubt approach you and offer help into
> Kiel, although he and France could go for that too. BEL pushes to HOL, HOL
> pushes to KIE supported by BAL in return for support into MUN. If they are
> coming after you next then they will have to make their move soon. MAO -
> IRI, MAR - SPA build in BRE. Build in STP. I think you, Austria and I will
> be BBQ.
I believe the American Thanksgiving holiday is dulling the press volume. I
have heard nothing firm from either one, though I have received some chatty
press from each. As I said - nothing firm, all anti-German.
> Thats the way I see things developing. It will be interesting to see what
> happens around Greece. The Turk may sell some story to Austria about
> supporting him to Serbia. At the same time he would support himself to
> Greece from BUL supported by AEG. I wouldnt be surprised to see an RT
> emerge. I think will be a crucial fall to see who the real allies are. The
> only main concern for Russia for a solo is to grab as much as he can in
the
> north/west, this means he has to grab less in the south. He will be
pushing
> you for eveything it is worth to stay allied. He will obviously push
France
> to set your mind at ease but I think he will offer France support into MUN
> and or KIE but take BER himself instead and push GAL - SIL. It will be an
> interesting fall. Once again I will pledge only not to attack DEN.
Feel free to tap it, if you think it will help. But I will count on no
supported attacks, even if the support comes from elsewhere. . .
> I am
> thinking hard what to do retake HOL or try and stop the Russian. If Russia
> grabs a build then I think we will see the RF vs E next year.
It's probably what I would do, if I were Russia. As France I'd be more
reluctant. . .
Ben
Message from Germany to England
> I believe the American Thanksgiving holiday is dulling the press volume.
I
> have heard nothing firm from either one, though I have received some
chatty
> press from each. As I said - nothing firm, all anti-German.
Well my good news is they are both speaking to me again and it definitely
isn't anti German.
Message from England to France and Russia
Gentlemen -
I have heard - from you, Eric - of a likely German HEL - DEN, which will
mean F NTH will have to order NTH s SKA - DEN.
Eric, are you supporting DEN - KIE? Is there anything else we need to go
over?
I am completely exhausted - probably shouldn't be writing press right now.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony
> Well my good news is they are both speaking to me again and it definitely
> isn't anti German.
I am pleased to hear it. Of course, what they write me isn't anti-English.
;-)
Ben
Message from Master to all
Players,
I'm extending the deadline by a week at a player's request.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from Germany to France
I am not hearing much but here are my thoughts. If EFR do all attack me then
I personally prefer to let one of them get the most benefit. That would be
you. I am trying to work out how to let you keep holland and take mun.
I am expecting England to get KIE & DEN and for Russia to get BER. Soon all
3 of you will be head to head in Germany. I havent heared from you or Russia
since so I am guessing I have already been cut up ;-)
Message from Germany to England
>Of course, what they write me isn't anti-English.>
The gest of my press was that they were actually talking to me. France hasnt
since 1901, Russia didnt last year.
Anyway there is not much else to say, I have stated my case it's up to you.
All I can do is decide who to favour and who not to favour should I bow out.
Personally I believe in letting one become as strong as possible. That would
have to be France. So I would let him keep Holland and Take MUN. My mind
isnt made up yet.
Russia mentioned you and him discussed HEL - DEN supported by KIE and vice
versa and how to counteract it.
Also that he would support you to KIE allowing for you to take KIE & DEN.
Personally I think your best bet is keep DEN and go for Norway. It may be
your last chance.
As you were not really forthcoming on that point I can only conclude that
you dont believe me. My French option is the one I am leaning to right now.
I will sit out the game as an observer and be joined by you shortly
thereafter.
I get the feeling from discussions that FR feel they have made the most of
the bye gone years. I feel a stab is coming. I would have been wuite happy
to let you keep DEN whilst I retook Holland. If ERG are all ganged up
against me then it doesnt really matter. All I can do once again is ensure
that only one gets maximum profit out of a three way attack on me.
The sooner all three powers collide and get entangled the better. One of
them will then be appointed the next target.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
You may receive this twice; I had to send it from web mail as my office network mail is acting hinky:
I sneaked into the office today & am away from your last press to me. So it is not duplicated here, and I am responding to a couple of points I remember, but no doubt I am overlooking some.
Concerning Russia's proposal to support me into KIE, he mentioned that option last phase. I do not know what his intentions are as of this writing.
Concerning why I have not been as forthcoming about my *intentions* as I had been earlier, I am trying to become a better player by being alittle /less/ forthright concerning my larger scale plan. It seems a pretty straightforward practice for me to write this way to you - you present me a couple of tactical/diplomatic options involving me setting up against other players. They seem to make alot of sense. Then you give me some portion of your own moves: this phase, that you will not attack DEN. You could of course be lying, and I of course could reject your advice. That is diplomacy, and it is also for now a working relationship.
Now I choose one or the other - either to attack you again in some way, or to take your advice and push against Russia. If I tell you I will attack Russia, the information is to you, useless, because I would tell you that either way. But I can tell you, I believe Russia's position in this game is right now stronger than anyone else's, ahead of France's even, because of Russia's proximity to the stalemate line and reasonably secure borders.
I will say also, I am trying to get better by observing your press, and I will be interested later to see whether you and the observers thought I was getting better or worse as the game went on.
Certainly this is the most challenging board I have ever "sat" at, and I expect my play will change even during the game as a result. I hope it is for the better. . .
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben,
> Concerning Russia's proposal to support me into KIE, he mentioned that
option last phase. I do not know what his intentions are as of this
writing.>
OK, I hear you. He mentioned to me that the move to KIE was discusssed for
this turn. At the moment his moves suggetions to me are hel - nth and attack
sil so that he can disband and rebuild in STP. A strange rewuest indeed.
> You could of course be lying, and I of course could reject your advice.
That is diplomacy, and it is also for now a working relationship.
I understand. But my game style always involves looking beyond the current
year and gains. Russia is very strong right now. He and Turkey are doing
fine down south. He has no worrys there. He doesnt really want to see a
strong France or England. There is not much he can do about France and that
is where I can annoy him or drive him to despair by giving Holland and MUN
to France. Once Austria is gone Russia will be on nine, this leaves him 12
down south or 9 in Germany and England to gain his last nine from.
His main concern right now must be that France gets Holland and MUN and you
take DEN and NWY. Thats the fear I have to play on. I have told him I wont
take DEN and that would allow you to take Norway too. I also told him I
would not attack Holland or defend MUN but actually support BUR into MUN by
moving MUN to TYR.
In return I have asked him not to attack Berlin. There is not much I can
offer him, only threats.
As for France, I have pushed him to keep Holland, take MUN and push MAR -
SPA and MAO - IRI and build a fleet in BRE. He ofcourse is very interested.
This brings me to England. What can I offer. All I can offer is not to
attack DEN but go for Holland instead and defend Berlin. You pick up two
builds and I go back to four. Something I can live with. If worst comes to
the worst I have all units support KIE in some way or the other. hel - den,
ruh - hol, mun and ber support kie and kie s ber. That way I am sure to be
left with one sc. I would then keep the fleet and wee what happens next year
depending on who did what this year. I have also told Russia that I may even
just have kie, mun support ber. He would have to rely on you and france to
cut support and at the same time risk you attacking him instead. Its a
tricky situation but I have to play on Frances greed, russia's worries and
your choice of options.
I dont believe that EFR getting one german sc to be in your advantage. That
still leaves you between two stronger nations once I am gone. They know you
would have to attack one of them to get ahead once I am gone.Even if you
take DEN & KIE and France gets HOL & MUN and Russia gets BER then you are
still stuck in the middle with nowhere to go.
My best bet is an allyship for you because I believe it offers something to
both. Your easiest growth lies in the north. Yopu and France can always
finsih me later. You need to break out somewhere. I cant say much more on
the issue but I suggest the following moves. den - bal (bounce). I cut sil
and move ruh - mun supported by kie. This way I get to keep ber, kie,mun.
You get den, nwy. It also means that you can break out north. With Italy
getting a build I dont see France moving after Italy once I am gone. He
would surely team up with Russia and come after you.
> Certainly this is the most challenging board I have ever "sat" at, and I
expect my play will change even during the game as a result. I hope it is
for the better. . ..
Well this game I have failed dramatically. Letting France into MUN for no
reason whatsoever was a disaster. I should have offered him the sealion in
s1901. I have made very poor moves. LORAX which you are gm-ing on the other
hand has been very draining to say the least. Tremendous diplomacy needed
and tactical moves. As you know I went from elimination to leading the board
for now. A challenging game to say the least. This one has been forced since
f1901. Bad diplomacy and moves on my part. I havent given it the attention
it needed. I hope to make up for that from this year on but it may be to
late.
All I say is look at the board, where do you go after I am gone and ERF get
their share of me?
You have no choice but to attack F or R. Russia is the best bet even then
but surely you know that the chances of RF joining up once I am gone is
greater than EF or ER joining up. At the moment my money is on Russia to
solo. As any scenario suggests that Russia is eventually your best target I
say take my friendship now. Keep DEN (I would rather regain Holland and an
ally that retake DEN and leave Holland in French hands) and push for Norway
now whilst you can. It will be your last chance this game. I will broadcast
an EFR just for fun but dont take it to seriously ;-)
Message from Germany to England, France, and Russia
OK guys this is how I stand following talks, suggestions and requests
following talks with all three of you.
My most likely moves are thus;
f hel - nth (cutting support for attack on Nwy)
a kie - den (cutting support for attack on swe)
a mun - tyr
a ruh s French army bur - mun
a ber - kie (if everyone is attacking me then I would like in on the action,
kiel will never suspect an attack from berlin)
The above scenario allows Russia to selfbounce in Sweden or attack and take
Berlin or SUpport ENgland into KIE.
It allows France to keep Holland and take MUN with my support or allows
Russia or France to support the other into MUN. England gets to keep Denmark
and I get to attack surprise attack myself.
Any request for alternative moves are welcome.
Message from Germany to Germany
I can only try and get England to see that no matter what happens he will be
next. It's my best chance of surviavl.
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
> > you are going to ARM this season....right?
>
> If you examine my moves for the last two seasons, I think you can see that
> planning on me making sound tactical moves on my own is dangerous assumption.
Well...I hadnt noticed taht they were that bad, but since you mention it,
I am now asking you if you are making the sound tactical move...and going
to ARM.
> Can you spell out the picture you are imagining in greater detail?
Part of this we need to talk about.
> Specifically, are you planning to support me to Bud from Ser?
Not immediately, I am supporting ION - GRE since I dont trust the Turk NOT
to support himself there.
I would support you to BUD next year.
If I had the
> army in Rum as anticipated I'd suggest trying for Bul from Rum, but without a
> fleet to tap Bla, that won't succeed. Are you going to take Aeg or Eas and
> Ion? Etc.
No....I am going to hold onto Greece.
You could get an army to RUM and get sound tactical positioning by
SEV - ARM
RUM - SEV
GAL s UKR - RUM
UKR - RUM
How do you see this playing out, and remember you are already 2 centers
ahead of me .
take care
Andy
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Once again you write a note I could take two days to ponder. . .
Let me start at the end & write more another time:
> Keep DEN (I would rather regain Holland and an
> ally that retake DEN and leave Holland in French hands) and push for
Norway
> now whilst you can. It will be your last chance this game. I will
broadcast
> an EFR just for fun but dont take it to seriously ;-)
Let me say, a quick elimination of *you* is as bad for *me*, as a quick
elimination of *me* is bad for *you*. Reading between the lines of your
press I think this is correct.
If you issue the orders you described in the group press & I decided to
attack NWY, as you recommended, it would be the end of me & the end of you.
I am telling you, I am considering your recommendation. If you screw me in
favor of Russia it will be your own undoing, I think. So when you say,
don't take your group press orders too seriously, what you mean is, you
will not actually be entering those orders, because they are anti-English,
and by leading to the end of England, they simplify the board and firm up
the FR, which is bad for you.
Do I understand you correctly? Will you indeed cut those supports as
indicated, making it impossible for me to work as the enemy of your
enemies?
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Tony is now telling me that you are planning MAO - IRI, which I assume
means, he has proposed it and you are feeding him some line of garbage.
As I see it, you are benefitting considerably from the EF; I hope you would
not think of casting it off for the one or two dots you would have to gain
from stabbing me, when instead I can keep Germany and Russia at bay while
you focus on pushing East.
What are you hearing from Russia? Has he asked for MUN?
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Did Erik mention to you a bounce in WES?
Happy Thanksgiving.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
First of all let me apologise for the spelling, its not because I am dutch
but because I never go back and check what I write or how I spell it.
>So when you say, don't take your group press orders too seriously, what
you mean is, you
will not actually be entering those orders>
Correct
>because they are anti-English, and by leading to the end of England, they
simplify the board and firm up
the FR, which is bad for you.>
The FR is already on and thats bad for both of us.
> indicated, making it impossible for me to work as the enemy of your
enemies?>
I hope you are just that. I hope you see once I am gone then that leaves you
in the middle. Now you can escape into scandinavia. Your good fortune is my
good fortune right now. I will lose one SC anyway. I would rather lose DEN
to you than Holland and MUN to France and Berlin to Russia.
You are the only one who can not only save me but also yourself. That's my
good fortune. I really do believe this will be the last year you will be
able to attack Scandinavia. I dont for a minute believe France/Russia would
allow you to take two builds. I would, I wouldn't be concerned about you
keeping Denmark and taking Norway.
If you do decide to work with me then I ask that you bounce Russia in BAL.
He will use that to support SIL - BER.
He wont move it anywhere else so it is a safe bounce and stops him from
building.
Message from Italy to England
> Did Erik mention to you a bounce in WES?
>
No...
Should I expect one.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> > Did Erik mention to you a bounce in WES?
> >
>
> No...
>
> Should I expect one.
Maybe. If (a) you go to WES and (b) he goes to WES.
Right now I'd lay even money on (a) and (b), both.
I would rather you get the jump on him than the other way around, but he
hasn't told me anything directly.
Ben
Message from Turkey to Austria
Very well, please support Bul - Ser. That should work well for both of us.
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Austria is offering to support Bul - Ser, and I'm going to take it. Go
ahead with the shuffle this turn, and we should be in good shape to move
next year.
jason
Message from Italy to France
Erik,
Word is that you are coming to WES....
is this the case
Andy
Message from England to England
I cannot understand why FR would collectively not write me. I had been
uncertain about what course to take, but the fact that Eric & Erik have not
written is making it easier.
I had hoped I could get at least one to stick with me but I am thinking
that's not, for now, going to happen.
If orders were due tonight I would order the attack on NWY. There is I
think a 50/50 shot Tony will cut the support as he'd said he would in his
EFR press; it's what happened /last/ time he broadcast his intentions but
issued a private promise to me. This time I do not think he will survive
very long if he does hang me out to dry, so I am inclined to risk believing
him.
*sigh*
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Sorry about Denver - I had thought you guys were due to clean their clocks.
I hope you had a good time at the game, anyway.
> Subject: USTX:c2 - F1903M Press from G to EFR
Tony's group press tells me that, if he is to be believed, we can follow up
with BAL s DEN - KIE, and NTH s SKA - DEN, as we'd discussed. I might as
soon as next year be in a good position to start pushing in another
direction, depending on whether Germany reclaims HOL. Which would not be
what he described, but is certainly a possibility.
What do you think?
Ben
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason,
You have been getting mighty quiet again, are we good.
What do you see as the plan?
Andy
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Very well, please support Bul - Ser. That should work well for both of us.
OK. Looking forward to seeing Andy take a hit ;-)
Philippe
Message from Austria to Russia
Hi Eric,
Sorry for not responding sooner, but I was trying to convince
Jason to go against Andy (not sure if I was successfull, but it's
time to issue orders).
On our side, I still want you to get Vie, but I would also
appreciate your keeping the options of a second southern
fleet open.
Philippe
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I sneaked into the office today & am away from your last press to me. So it
is not duplicated here, and I am responding to a couple of points I
remember, but no doubt I am overlooking some.
Concerning Russia's proposal to support me into KIE, he mentioned that
option last phase. I do not know what his intentions are as of this
writing.
Concerning why I have not been as forthcoming about my *intentions* as I had
been earlier, I am trying to become a better player by being alittle /less/
forthright concerning my larger scale plan. It seems a pretty
straightforward practice for me to write this way to you - you present me a
couple of tactical/diplomatic options involving me setting up against other
players. They seem to make alot of sense. Then you give me some portion of
your own moves: this phase, that you will not attack DEN. You could of
course be lying, and I of course could reject your advice. That is
diplomacy, and it is also for now a working relationship.
Now I choose one or the other - either to attack you again in some way, or
to take your advice and push against Russia. If I tell you I will attack
Russia, the information is to you, useless, because I would tell you that
either way. But I can tell you, I believe Russia's position in this game is
right now stronger than anyone else's, ahead of France's even, because of
Russia's proximity to the stalemate line and reasonably secure borders.
I will say also, I am trying to get better by observing your press, and I
will be interested later to see whether you and the observers thought I was
getting better or worse as the game went on.
Certainly this is the most challenging board I have ever "sat" at, and I
expect my play will change even during the game as a result. I hope it is
for the better. . .
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Frankly, I didn't expect to take Holland and get kicked out
> of Ruhr. Not in
> the plans, as far as I saw them. Still, it is an interesting
> position, and
> if I can hold them both, then it isn't a bad outcome. I'm willing to
> consider Hol S Den - Kiel, and it's encouraging to see that
> Russia moved
> War - Sil. Could you perhaps order Nth - Hel to cut some
> support? If Kiel
> is dislodged and Hel is bumped, we could end up cutting
> Germany down to
> three centers. Heck, with Russia in Sil and Bal, maybe even two.
Yeah, we'll see. I will probably be able to tap HEL from NTH - it depends
on what we hear from Russia. In the long run I am thinking HOL should be an
English center, as we push west I think it makes sense positionally, and it
will put us alittle closer to balance. We can discuss that next year,
though.
> Mao is indeed there to deal with Andy. A bounce in Wes is not
> a bad idea --
> perhaps I will propose it. He's definitely on a tear now, with Serbia
> bumping him up to six. I have maybe a turn left before I
> really have to consider dealing with him.
I agree. Let me know what he says about the bounce.
Tony's new thing is to promise me of an FR alliance that will squeeze me
out. I don't think this will come to pass, as it so clearly benefits Russia
more then it benefits France. Consider the fact that the East is unfolding
into an IR. If the West were to unfold into an FR, well, you do the math.
Russia is big & poised to grow bigger; it seems to me it is in your best
interest that there is an *EF* inside the EFR.
Anyway, as I said, I don't think you'd do it, because I don't think you
would *want to*, but in case you were thinking along the same lines as Tony,
there's my 2c.
Happy Thanksgiving, if appropriate.
Ben
Message from France to all
Folks --
Sorry if I haven't been responding to press, but I was away for
Thanksgiving. My girlfriend's parents don't have dial-up, much less
broadband, so I was kind of in the stone ages for a few days there. I will
get back to you all later today.
Erik
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
*yawn*
When was the last time you heard from Eric/Russia? Is he the one who is
away?
Ben
Message from Italy to England
I havent heard from Eric since Saturday.
I am the one on the road.
I will be back on Thursday. I didnt think I would have connectivity here,
but I do.
Andy
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I'm a couple of responses behind.
>Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic game, and under
>cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even though I did.
>The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to go. . . :-(
Hah! Yeah, we stayed to the bitter end yesterday -- and it was bitter! Even
watched Plummer down the last ball. In the rain. While I'm still sick. But
it was fun, and the Raiders did have a chance, even though they blew it
several times. Your team made the rest of my family unhappy (all Niners fans).
>I hadn't mentioned - I like the Raiders more now that Romanowski is gone.
Yeah, that was a hard one. :)
> > The moves were very intriguing. Obviously I've been nervous about you
> ending
> > up in Nth, Ska and Den (if it's not clear, that's what I was referring to
> > when I said I'd prefer seeing you take Hel or Hol last season).
>
>It wasn't clear. On tactical matters I would appreciate you being *very
>clear* with your preferences, as I really aim to please, but I'm
>thickheaded. Though. . .
Fair enough. I will endeavor to be clearer. I can see how the cryptic "for
selfish and probably self-evident reasons" doesn't really spell things out
clearly. Knowing that I had
[snippage]
>This is interesting because it means NTH will have to support SKA - DEN
>instead of tapping HEL. Offer him the support. Just don't give it.
Right. My point was that if I offer him support, it doesn't really matter
which move I offer to support, since we'll be able to tell how to counter
his moves -- it just requires that he be expecting support. I think it
would be better for us if Kie was the mover, because then he can't support
Kie in place, but I don't want to be too pushy about trying to force him to
move one unit or the other. And we'll see, he hasn't confirmed his request yet.
>If you would share this scrap of intelligence - the request for support
>for HEL - DEN - it will permit me to explain why I have to order NTH s SKA
>- DEN. After all, if SKA - DEN does not succeed, I do not claim the dot.
I can do this, but FYI, I have been offline since my last press to you.
Erik and I did exchange some brief press about how Den and Hol may split
Tony's attention. So while I haven't said anything to him yet, I think he
will see the validity of this argument before I talk with him.
> > Subject: USTX:c2 - F1903M Press from G to EFR
>Tony's group press tells me that, if he is to be believed, we can follow up
>with BAL s DEN - KIE, and NTH s SKA - DEN, as we'd discussed. I might as
>soon as next year be in a good position to start pushing in another
>direction, depending on whether Germany reclaims HOL. Which would not be
>what he described, but is certainly a possibility.
I was only online for non-work stuff briefly, so haven't really processed
his message. I haven't heard anything from Tony that would indicate that
he's given up on asking for support to Den (though I haven't sent anything
agreeing to it yet either), so I suspect that message is meant more for
your and Erik's benefit than mine. Then again, with not being around, maybe
something broke with his and Erik's relationship? I'm just not sure. In any
case, whether or not what he's said is the truth, it would work with our
discussed moves, just as it would work if he's moving Hel-Den. The only
thing that would change our moves is if he asks for support for Kie-Den
instead of Hel. (See above for some discussion of this).
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
> > Specifically, are you planning to support me to Bud from Ser?
>
>Not immediately, I am supporting ION - GRE since I dont trust the Turk NOT
>to support himself there.
>
>I would support you to BUD next year.
Right. That was not meant as a demand, since clearly supporting me to Bud
and keeping Jason from taking Gre are mutually exclusive. I was just trying
to understand the bigger picture. Jason not getting Gre is a good thing.
And last thing he told me about Gre he was planning to support himself
there anyway.
>You could get an army to RUM and get sound tactical positioning by
>
>SEV - ARM
>RUM - SEV
>GAL s UKR - RUM
>UKR - RUM
>
>How do you see this playing out, and remember you are already 2 centers
>ahead of me.
Details, details. :)
Seriously, I'd think a split of something like Tri, Bul for you, Vie, Bud
for me. You should be able to get Tri with or without my help next year as
I take Bud. Then I could focus on Vie, and breaking the defense and/or
supporting you into Bul. From there we'd probably split Turkey 2/1, with me
taking Ank. That's a stable arrangement if we go forward looking at 3way
possibilities. If we are looking at 2 ways, then we'll have to look at
different arrangements of the southern dots. The way things look now, this
leaves me up one on you, but depending on how things go, you may end up
going up one while I go down one anyway, so that center difference you
refer to may be ephemeral. If I'm doing really well in the north, then we
can look at other arrangements, but we'll need something that gives us each
a semblance of defensible lines.
Is that the kind of response you are looking for?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Did I really send you a message where I called you Ben? I must be sicker
than I thought! It looks like the content was meant for you, but I just
called you the wrong thing. My apologies for any insult that may have
represented to either of you. :)
>Sorry for not responding sooner, but I was trying to convince
>Jason to go against Andy (not sure if I was successfull, but it's
>time to issue orders).
I'm not complaining, seeing as I was offline most of the last week and a
half. I think you were successful, as Jason has indicated that he's going
to go through with this. Do note that the deadline was extended to next
Monday (part of the reason I was willing to take off my sick time this
weekend).
>On our side, I still want you to get Vie, but I would also
>appreciate your keeping the options of a second southern
>fleet open.
So if I understand correctly you are asking me to move Gal-Vie, to keep F
Rum in place and vacate Sev, yes? If so, is the option of a second fleet
because you don't trust Jason to take your support or because you'd like to
see me in a position to attack him?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
>Austria is offering to support Bul - Ser, and I'm going to take it. Go
>ahead with the shuffle this turn, and we should be in good shape to move
>next year.
He hinted that he might offer you that, but I didn't want to be pushy and
suggest you go for it if you didn't ask me. Given that he hinted it to me,
that either means that he really means it, or that he's up to something
with Italy. I think the move makes sense overall, because as I've said a
few times, you'd really be trusting Andy not to protect Gre otherwise.
Have I really not sent you any press all this season? If so, I apologize.
I've been sick and offline most of the time, but I still thought I had sent
something. Bad ally! I promise to try to be better.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
I got a kick out of that last message! I don't know if Ben believes it (and
I assume that was primarily for his benefit) but he still is asking for the
support we've talked about, so Hel-Den should still work, whether he thinks
you are telling the truth or lying.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Ben has asked me to "leak" our moves to you to explain to you that he can't
afford to support you in Hol because he needs Nth to support Ska-Den. As I
think I've told you, I've let him (Ben) know that depending on what Germany
wants to do, if he asks me for support, we (Ben and I) can counter it by me
feeding him moves. When we talked about the fact that he may need Nth to
support Ska-Den, he was concerned that you might want support for Hol. You
might want to let on as to how you are concerned about Hol, but that if
we're fairly confident that Germany is not using Hel against it, then you
can live with it. Or somesuch.
What is the story on Hol? Is Tony fighting for it? Any ideas about how we
should set up to attack Tony going forward? We could try to take Mun while
we work against Ben, but that might be pushing it. We really don't want to
force EG if we don't have to. What's your take?
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
No problem on the lack of press. I've been fairly slack myself with
Thanksgiving and what not.
Andy wants me to let him keep Gre to get a build, but that's not going
to happen. Good luck this year.
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
Sorry about that, what with the deadline extended, I figured we'd have
something new to talk about by now. :-)
I think you expressed the plan that you keep Ser and Gre this turn,
allowing you to keep the pressure on Austria. I keep holding back Russia.
Next year, I get Gre, you move east, and you and Russia end up splitting
up Austria (at least, I assume that's what will happen). I'll obviously
need to retake Rum at some point in all this to keep Russia honest.
Does that sound about right?
jason
Message from Germany to Russia
;-) there wasnt much else I could think of.
I will cut the NTH as discussed and move kie - den, so the broadcast wasnt that far off.
Message from Germany to England
Russia insists that you are still asking for the support of DEN - KIE.
All I am asking is that you cut support from BAL. Russia says he will be supporting KIE - DEN.
Something I doubt very much. We shall see. As stated my moves are not aimed at Denmark. But dont expect Russian support to kiel. I still believe it will be FR against you after I am gone.
Message from Austria to Russia
> So if I understand correctly you are asking me to move Gal-Vie, to keep F
> Rum in place and vacate Sev, yes? If so, is the option of a second fleet
> because you don't trust Jason to take your support or because you'd like to
> see me in a position to attack him?
After your confirmation, I tend to think Jason will accept my
support; but I can't be sure and would prefer to see you in
position to do something about it.
Philippe.
P.-S. Regarding the move to Vie, if you prefer to move to
Boh instead, I'm ok with it; but please do so only if you can
be sure that Andy isn't going to get anything out of me.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Russia insists that you are still asking for the support of DEN - KIE.
> All I am asking is that you cut support from BAL. Russia says
> he will be supporting KIE - DEN.
> Something I doubt very much. We shall see. As stated my moves
> are not aimed at Denmark. But dont expect Russian support to
> kiel. I still believe it will be FR against you after I am gone.
Yeah, I finally heard from him again too. No doubt you are right about the
FR.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Ben, lie if you have to but say you will be cutting support from BAL.
I need something if only a lie to base my decions on.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Ben, lie if you have to but say you will be cutting support from BAL.
> I need something if only a lie to base my decions on.
Um, ok, I'll be cutting support from BAL, but I'm not sure what I'll be
doing with any of my *other* units. No rush, my friend, the deadline is
still a week away. . .
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> I'm a couple of responses behind.
No sweat. I figured it was the holiday season & all.
> >Yes. I will always be able to say, I was at that historic
> game, and under
> >cross examination, I will then deny that I left early, even
> though I did.
> >The guy who'd given me the ticket (and the ride) wanted to
> go. . . :-(
>
> Hah! Yeah, we stayed to the bitter end yesterday -- and it
> was bitter! Even
> watched Plummer down the last ball. In the rain. While I'm
> still sick. But
> it was fun, and the Raiders did have a chance, even though
> they blew it
> several times. Your team made the rest of my family unhappy
> (all Niners fans).
I should think *their* team made them unhappy. Talk shows Monday morning
were more focussed on the collapse of the Niners than the quality play of
Baltimore. Niners, with every reason to leave it all on the field, played
like garbage. And left something else on the field, instead. Apologies to
the Niners fans in the peanut gallery. I do not approve of student athletes
(or their coaches) running up a score, but in the pros, I do not think it is
such a big deal, though mildly distasteful.
What are you hearing from Tony?
And from Erik?
While we can analyze the position together, we are not in a vacuum. . .
I have heard nothing from Erik in awhile, and Tony of course writes me
thrice a day telling me FR will come and kill me when he is gone. I am not
*too* worried about this, as I think I am useful to you without being a
threat, whereas if France keeps growing, the west will be resolved quickly
enough that it will be difficult for you to solo, further down the road.
Also we have good (& regular) press, also I think we have a good feel for
each other diplomatically, also at my small size I am not particularly
threatening. *Especially* if you support me into KIE, in which case I will
be (a) in your debt, and perhaps more importantly, (b) out of SKA.
Ben
Message from Russia to Germany
> ;-) there wasnt much else I could think of.
> I will cut the NTH as discussed and move kie - den, so the broadcast
> wasnt that far off.
Sounds good. Do note that originally we talked about Hel-Den, so this
represents a change to what we had originally discussed. I'm not complaining
-- Kie-Den works as well as Hel-Den, and probably gives you a better
defensive position overall -- but I hope you were planning to mention this
change to me so I could deliver on the support!
I'll change my order to support Kie-Den.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Turkey
> Does that sound about right?
>
Sounds perfect....excellent
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> Right. That was not meant as a demand, since clearly supporting me to Bud
> and keeping Jason from taking Gre are mutually exclusive. I was just trying
> to understand the bigger picture. Jason not getting Gre is a good thing.
> And last thing he told me about Gre he was planning to support himself
> there anyway.
>
Then I would ask you to hit Bul for me.
Rum - Bul
Sev - ARM
GAL s UKR - RUM
UKR - RUM
protects up both.
> Details, details. :)
Yeah....:-)
>
> Seriously, I'd think a split of something like Tri, Bul for you, Vie, Bud
> for me. You should be able to get Tri with or without my help next year as
> I take Bud. Then I could focus on Vie, and breaking the defense and/or
> supporting you into Bul. From there we'd probably split Turkey 2/1, with me
> taking Ank. That's a stable arrangement if we go forward looking at 3way
> possibilities.
I agree with all of this.
If we are looking at 2 ways, then we'll have to look at
> different arrangements of the southern dots. The way things look now, this
> leaves me up one on you, but depending on how things go, you may end up
> going up one while I go down one anyway, so that center difference you
> refer to may be ephemeral. If I'm doing really well in the north, then we
> can look at other arrangements, but we'll need something that gives us each
> a semblance of defensible lines.
> Is that the kind of response you are looking for?
Yes...very much so...thank you
Andy
Message from Germany to Russia
Well we hadnt really finalised any moves, we still have a week left. I am
still fishing for Englands and Frances moves.
Pushing the fleet to NTH does cut eventual support for DEN should Ben not
trust either of us.
How are you and France getting allong. If a three way press is there then by
all means get it going. I will finalise my moves a day or two before the
deadline. France hasnt said much and Ben is not going into details.
He is playing the trust me and see you have no other options routine. But as
stated there is still a good 6 days left.
We could also look at me supporting you to DEN. A blue unit or Grey unit
doesnt make that much difference to me.
Any puppet roll would do right now, that is why I am fishing with EFR. If
you know what France is up to with Holland then you know whether he will cut
support from KIE or not. I could have KIE support you in and cut NTH. You
cover SWE from NWY just in case. But there again me cutting NTH and DEN
helps you quite a bit too. I dont believe you will be helping Ben into Kiel.
If he gets two builds where is he to go??
He can only move against you or France once I am gone. He is stuck in the
middle. You do not benefit from him growing. I benefit from surviving for as
long as possible. You also dont want France getting out of control If he
wraps England up the you are also a target. Just some thoughts for now. I
have offered myself as a puppet to all 3 of you. But who do I trust ;-)
????????
Message from Germany to France
How are things going? If Russia sides with England and helps him into KIE
whilst England follows up to DNE then England gets two builds. How is the
relationship with ER right now? are you trying to get FR working against
ENgalnd with my help?
Message from Germany to Germany
It's a shame France is not saying much. I am not putting any effort into the
eastern negotiations with AIT.
I cannot influence that area just yet. Austria and Italy are to busy
fighting to come to my aid and I have nothing to offer them as they are not
working together.
Italy will be to worried about Greece to put any pressure on France. I am
still expecting the RT to take off.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I am absolutely considering DEN - BAL, as you've requested, but I wonder what you think of DEN - SWE.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Two thoughts;
1 - If DEN is somehow to get dislodged then I am sure you would want to
retreat to Sweden
2 - If Norway is to fall then Russia surely knows that that the Norwegian
army cannot do anything else other than move to Sweden.
If I were him and in doubt as to your motives I would push Norway to Sweden
and go for Berlin with BAL and SIL.
If he in his wildest dreams believes that EG are working together then
NWY-SWE is a must. So you would only bounce.
He wouldnt want you taking Norway and pushing Denmark to Sweden with me
regaining Denmark.
I see no other move than Norway to Sweden (If Russia doesnt trust you).
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I still owe you mail. I'm waaay behind on my hobbies as compared to RL stuff
(I know, Dip is important and all, but it still counts as a hobby).
I'm responding to your message from memory, so if I miss or mis-state any
points, please point that out.
What am I hearing from Germany and France?
Well, Tony has thrown around all sorts of ideas -- Hel-Den I told you about.
After his broadcast he sent me a message saying that's really how he's going
to move, and he'd like support for Kie-Den. He also threw out the possibility
of offering to support me to Den. I think either of the first two work for
us. I would not trust him to support me to Den even if he actually offers it
(so far he's just raised the idea). (There are other reasons why I think it
would be a bad idea for me to go for Den, but since I can't get past trusting
him to support the move, I don't need to consider those concerns at this
time.)
He (Tony) has also made it clear that he's shopping for his best offer, which
is no surprise. What's he offering you?
I haven't heard anything from Erik recently. Somewhat worrisome at this
point, given that it sounds from Tony's press that he *has* been talking with
Erik. Added to the fact that Tony's moves all indicate that he won't be
contesting Hol, I'm not sure what to make of Erik's silence. Especially given
that he's not talked to me about Mun after pushing so hard to see me take
Sil.
Oh -- found your message:
> I have heard nothing from Erik in awhile, and Tony of course writes me
> thrice a day telling me FR will come and kill me when he is gone. I am not
> *too* worried about this, as I think I am useful to you without being a
> threat,
As I've tried to spell out, when I chose not to build in StP I think I made
my leaning toward ER clear. Yes, you would be trusting me not to form an FR
(or GR). Similarly, I'm trusting you not to form a GE. All are possible,
though for reasons we've discussed, and I've written about below (I'm writing
this out of order) I think they're not as good for either of us.
> whereas if France keeps growing, the west will be resolved quickly
> enough that it will be difficult for you to solo, further down the road.
Solo! Heck, with my recent results I'm worried about survival still. (In my
last game as Russia I was larger than I am here and was ultimately
eliminated). But your strategic point is valid. Even moreso, I don't need any
English dots to actually solo if it comes to that. FWIW, my view on solos is
to shoot for a strong draw position, and hope the other players screw stuff
up or piss each other off rather than trying to force a win. See VGFP2017 for
a good example of this -- I did end up soloing, but I spent most of my time
trying really hard to help France try to secure a place in a 3WD, giving him
centers I could easily have taken. Eventually, Germany pressed him so hard he
decided to throw to me. So with or without considering solos, I'm not likely
to do anything to press you until and unless your situation gets to the point
that you want me to as a threat to the others.
Mind you, I'm far from predicting that I'm going to come close to a solo, but
I thought that would be useful background info for you if you are worried I'm
going to try to grab all your dots.
> Also we have good (& regular) press, also I think we have a good feel for
> each other diplomatically,
Absolutely. I play towards the players I'm comfortable with much more than
the position that is necessarily strongest. Which is why I had no problem
with you attacking Swe last Fall given our agreements, and why I ultimately
chose to not build a fleet in StP (or Sev for that matter). I think from a
purely tactical point of view those could be considered mistakes (and I'm
dying to see what (if anything) the observers said about those choices). But
I definitely believe that good, productive diplomacy will win out over good
tactics in every case except maybe the late end-game.
> also at my small size I am not particularly threatening.
Threatening is always a relative thing. I agree that I won't win sympathy
points from any other players about the "English threat", but you could hurt
me if you chose to -- especially if I *don't* work with you. Perhaps not kill
me, but throw a significant wrench into my position, and turn someone else
(probably France?) into the board leader. Don't underestimate my willingness
to be flexible just because I have more units than you do!
I would also point out that there's an inverse piece to you being "not
particularly threatening" here too. Erik is in MAO and is looking to gain a
build if we believe Tony's broadcast and press to me. If Erik moves to
Iri/Lon and builds in Bre, he's a big threat to you. Whereas I am unlikely to
pick up any builds (though of course anything is possible), and even if I do,
it would be several seasons before anything I built would be able to be a
threat to you. Essentially, our separation (the nice ER buffer you've
referred to a couple of times) is good for both of us. I would also point out
that every unit I lose gives Erik that much stronger an advantage over you in
Germany (both directly and because of who I'd be inclined to help) which in
turn leads to French builds that are likely to come after you.
> *Especially* if you support me into KIE, in which case I will
> be (a) in your debt, and perhaps more importantly, (b) out of SKA.
I think (b) is definitely more important at this stage. I don't expect people
to do things because they are "in my debt". I do expect that helping you into
Kie will buy me goodwill (which is important) and will help further ER
cooperation, but I don't expect to have that lead to you "puppetting" for me,
or doing things that go counter to your best interests. So I am definitely
looking for ways to make ER make ongoing sense for both of us. I came to you
early with the promise of supporting you to Kie because I think it helps both
of us. It is real ER cooperation, it gets you builds (which makes it worth
your while), it moves you away from me, and it keeps Tony and Erik in check.
I'm actually now looking at what to do once you are in Kie and Den. The
challenge is going to be getting you a presence on the mainland. F Kie
doesn't project a lot of force for you into the lowlands, but I'm hoping that
you getting builds now will give you a good start towards that presence. As
with England proper, I really don't need to get more than one or two German
dots to have a secure northern position.
What's your take on going forward? I'm thinking gettign you in Kie/Den and me
in Ber, while I move my nothern units back to more defensive positions. You
focus on Germany/France (with my help as required) I focus on the south. My
point is to make it clear that my goal is to make it worth your while to
continue with ER. If I'm missing important elements that would make ER work
for you, please let me know.
I hope this all makes sense. I'm writing this message like one sentence at a
time between phone calls and other work stuff. If it's self-contradictory,
stupid, unacceptable, unclear or any such, please let me know.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
[Whoops! I wrote most of this message yesterday, but it's still sitting
unsent in my "outbox".]
I wasn't complaining about the "change". And I realize that we had not
committed to anything, because I was still trying to find out what England
was looking to do as well. I just wanted to make sure that you realized it
was a change.
I had not considered the idea of me taking Den. Looking at it I don't see how
it would make sense. We need two fleets between us, and if I took Den, you'd
be disbanding at least one unit. The advantage of me being in Den is that it
puts two units on Nth, but do you really thinkn you could afford to lose that
many units? In either case I agree that Ben has a chance of supporting
himself in Den if he's worried about us, so Hel-Nth is probably good whatever
else we decide.
I understand the idea that surviving as a puppet is better than not, but at
this point I think it's premature for you to talk about being a puppet -- at
least not being *my* puppet. If we are working together, we'd be about equal
strenth in the north. Granted I'm (currently) bigger overall, but it seems
far too early for you to really be a puppet. As to who you should trust,
obviously I'm not an unbiased observer here. I will say that I was serious
last season about trying to take Ska (whether you took it or I did). Without
that confirmation, and without another northern unit (and again, I admit that
was a mistake on my part), I didn't think I could afford to move against
England.
Obviously I'm interested in having an advantageous position, but I don't
believe in deals that are "too good" for me, and we'd need to work together
for either of us to do well in the north. If you want to support me to Den we
can talk about it, but we should only do that if it makes real sense to get
you in a good position. But if I focus on building in the North and pull back
from Sil while you take Den, that would allow us to work together well as
allies -- not with you as a puppet.
As to Erik, I haven't heard anything from him for several days. Surprisingly,
he had not asked me for support to Mun (though it's still early in the
season, so who knows what may come later) so he may be serious about turning
on Ben and working with you.
Short version is that I tend to think I should support you to Den, but won't
complain if you decide that me taking it makes more sense. If you take it
we've got some logistics about how to get my fleet back to Swe afterwards,
but we can probably work out those details after the moves. If Erik really
does move to Iri, then the EF problems will give you new life and make me
pressing against England more realistic. But again, for that to work, you
need to be strong enough to be a real threat to France.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Just checking in. Everything okay? Turkey poisoning?
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Tony is clearly working you over the way he is working me over, too. He
told me as well that he's been hearing good things from Erik (and from you,
too), though my guess is, he continues to hear nothing from Erik but is
desparate to create friction.
I suspect I've gotten as much press from Erik as anyone has this game and I
haven't heard a peep in some time, so I'm not too worried about it.
> He (Tony) has also made it clear that he's shopping for his best offer,
which
> is no surprise. What's he offering you?
Survival beyond the FR Of Doom. He wants me to attack Scandinavia, of
course, which I will not do, as he has lied to me pretty much every phase
since S'01, so I would just as soon not count on him as a long-term
partner, when I have other choices available.
> I haven't heard anything from Erik recently. Somewhat worrisome at this
> point, given that it sounds from Tony's press that he *has* been talking
with
> Erik.
I do not believe him.
> Added to the fact that Tony's moves all indicate that he won't be
> contesting Hol, I'm not sure what to make of Erik's silence. Especially
given
> that he's not talked to me about Mun after pushing so hard to see me take
> Sil.
Erik's press is on-again, off-again, as you will recall from C1. I suspect
Tony permitted the shot at HOL in order to deny builds to the rest of us,
if he thought he could. Creating an imbalance among the attacking allies,
and all that.
[snippage - I agree with you on everything in here, take no offense that I
clipped it from the response]
> I would also point out that there's an inverse piece to you being "not
> particularly threatening" here too. Erik is in MAO and is looking to gain
a
> build if we believe Tony's broadcast and press to me. If Erik moves to
> Iri/Lon and builds in Bre, he's a big threat to you. Whereas I am
unlikely to
> pick up any builds (though of course anything is possible), and even if I
do,
> it would be several seasons before anything I built would be able to be a
> threat to you. Essentially, our separation (the nice ER buffer you've
> referred to a couple of times) is good for both of us. I would also point
out
> that every unit I lose gives Erik that much stronger an advantage over
you in
> Germany (both directly and because of who I'd be inclined to help) which
in
> turn leads to French builds that are likely to come after you.
I am a bit worried about this. I am thinking, a fall stab of MAO - NAO (or
IRI) *if I get builds* will not be too painful, as surely he knows. So I
am hopeful he will push south, as I've been urging him.
> I think (b) is definitely more important at this stage. I don't expect
people
> to do things because they are "in my debt". I do expect that helping you
into
> Kie will buy me goodwill (which is important) and will help further ER
> cooperation, but I don't expect to have that lead to you "puppetting" for
me,
> or doing things that go counter to your best interests. So I am definitely
> looking for ways to make ER make ongoing sense for both of us. I came to
you
> early with the promise of supporting you to Kie because I think it helps
both
> of us. It is real ER cooperation, it gets you builds (which makes it worth
> your while), it moves you away from me, and it keeps Tony and Erik in
check.
Sounds good. Debt is not something to be ignored, either; consider that
Tony appears to be a player for whom good will is without value. And he
has surrounded himself with enemies. . .
> I'm actually now looking at what to do once you are in Kie and Den. The
> challenge is going to be getting you a presence on the mainland. F Kie
> doesn't project a lot of force for you into the lowlands, but I'm hoping
that
> you getting builds now will give you a good start towards that presence.
As
> with England proper, I really don't need to get more than one or two
German
> dots to have a secure northern position.
This is true.
> What's your take on going forward? I'm thinking gettign you in Kie/Den
and me
> in Ber, while I move my nothern units back to more defensive positions.
You
> focus on Germany/France (with my help as required) I focus on the south.
My
> point is to make it clear that my goal is to make it worth your while to
> continue with ER. If I'm missing important elements that would make ER
work
> for you, please let me know.
No, you've got it.
> I hope this all makes sense. I'm writing this message like one sentence
at a
> time between phone calls and other work stuff. If it's self-contradictory,
> stupid, unacceptable, unclear or any such, please let me know.
:-)
Tut, tut. The only obvious omission was football.
Ben
Message from Germany to Russia
>I had not considered the idea of me taking Den. Looking at it I don't see how
it would make sense.>
It only makes sense for me. Lets be honest, either you, england or france is lying to me. In the worst case all three of you are lying. I am basically selling my soul to whoever wants it. Thats why I stated that it doesnt matter to me if DEN is english or Russian. I would ofcourse prefer it to be german.
> We need two fleets between us, and if I took Den, you'd be disbanding at least one unit. The advantage of me being in Den is that it puts two units on Nth, but do you really thinkn you could afford to lose that
many units?>
I dont want to lose any, I am offering anything to anyone to stay alive. I am sure one of the three will take up the offer.
> In either case I agree that Ben has a chance of supporting himself in Den if he's worried about us, so Hel-Nth is probably good whatever else we decide.>
Agreed, it cuts support for HOL and DEN.
> I understand the idea that surviving as a puppet is better than not, but at this point I think it's premature for you to talk about being a puppet>
I have never used the ploy before as it has never been needed so please excuse my ignorance in this matter ;-)
> -- at least not being *my* puppet. If we are working together, we'd be about equal
strenth in the north. Granted I'm (currently) bigger overall, but it seems
far too early for you to really be a puppet. As to who you should trust,
obviously I'm not an unbiased observer here. I will say that I was serious
last season about trying to take Ska (whether you took it or I did). Without
that confirmation, and without another northern unit (and again, I admit that
was a mistake on my part), I didn't think I could afford to move against
England.>
We live and learn.
>Obviously I'm interested in having an advantageous position, but I don't
believe in deals that are "too good" for me, and we'd need to work together
for either of us to do well in the north. If you want to support me to Den we
can talk about it, but we should only do that if it makes real sense to get
you in a good position. But if I focus on building in the North and pull back
from Sil while you take Den, that would allow us to work together well as
allies -- not with you as a puppet.>
This for obvious reasons has my preference.
> As to Erik, I haven't heard anything from him for several days. Surprisingly,
he had not asked me for support to Mun (though it's still early in the
season, so who knows what may come later) so he may be serious about turning
on Ben and working with you.>
I hope so.
> Short version is that I tend to think I should support you to Den, but won't
complain if you decide that me taking it makes more sense. If you take it
we've got some logistics about how to get my fleet back to Swe afterwards,
but we can probably work out those details after the moves. If Erik really
does move to Iri, then the EF problems will give you new life and make me
pressing against England more realistic. But again, for that to work, you
need to be strong enough to be a real threat to France.>
Agreed, but I am sure you dont want england getting two builds, so I am sure you will not be helping him into Kiel. This makes it more clear that I should keep Denmark so that we can both take on England. A joint GR would also convince France to join in. That is why I am hoping either you or France will get a 3 way press going.
tony
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Two thoughts;
> 1 - If DEN is somehow to get dislodged then I am sure you
> would want to
> retreat to Sweden
>
> 2 - If Norway is to fall then Russia surely knows that that
> the Norwegian army cannot do anything else other than move to Sweden.
You make a strong case. Forget I asked.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
No doubt real life is catching up to you, and we have plenty of time before
the deadline for you to look things over. So I do not mind waiting for you
to catch a breath and write when you get a chance to sit in a chair & think
Dip thoughts.
*But* Russia is getting nervous over your silence & I would appreciate you
shooting out a quick er group press, something to the effect of, you will
support DEN - KIE, something like that; I'm really not looking for much, but
I don't want to give Eric an incentive to go over to the dark side. . .
Ben
Message from England to England
Well, the press from Russia is comforting. Everything Tony writes concerning the danger of an FR is of course true, but I am incline to take the risk of continuing to work with Russia, rather than the risk of discarding that peaceful border for the quick gain of NWY.
I also think Tony is making up that he's received significant press from France. I bet Erik's silence isn't easing Andy's mind at all. . .
Anyway if Russia is faithful and France is not, I have a decent chance of weathering that storm for awhile. Hopefully holding the border for a couple of seasons, which whould give Andy a good exposed western med.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Answering another of your questions from yesterday:
Concerning tacitcs, how to proceed from fleets in DEN and KIE, it would depend on whether Germany had captured HEL - HOL. If he had, and IF was in open war, I would have to consider attacking France immediately. Otherwise I would shoot for HEL and negotiate for an English HOL, I think.
I agree the goal would be the insertion of an English army on the mainland.
This is the point at which, if you have a preference, you should tell me what it is. ;o) I have no attachment to the plan just expressed and am floating it only as a trial balloon.
Ben
Message from France to Russia
1.) The flu
2.) Having to work 11 hour days with the flu because of an audit
I am at home recovering today. I will catch up on the game in the next
couple of hours. My apologies for the silence.
Erik
Message from Russia to France
Fair enough. And I'm *very* sympathetic to both, being sick myself the last
week or so.
Get well.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Hey Jason,
I was looking over the board a bit and trying to get a sense of how we should
go forward, and I was thinking also about the general discussion we had about
DMZing the Black.
As I said earlier, I think it's too early this year you to vacate Black, but
I have an idea for next year that DMZes the Black and gets us both a lot of
momentum east. Tell me what you think about this:
After our moves in Spring, you should be in Ser and Bul. What if, instead of
me swapping my units around, I keep F Rum. You build F Smy and continue to
press Italy and head for Gre. Then in Spring, you move Bla-Rum with support
and disband my fleet, while supporting me to Bud with Ser. In Fall, I will
then support myself to Rum, and you can disband F Rum. That puts us in the
same position we've been discussing, but both without fleets on Black. You
can build and extra fleet for the Med (or an army if you need one) and I can
build in the north somewhere. Actually, we should both end up building two
units -- you for Gre and also the replacement for F Rum, me for Bud and for
replacing F Rum.
To be honest, your fleet in Bla doesn't really bother me, so while I think
this is a good option for both of us, I'm open to the idea of you having F
Bla there for longer, or just sailing it out Con. But I thought (1) it seems
kind of silly for us to both have units pointing at each other if we're
cooperating and (2) you might like seeing my fleet disappear.
Let me know what you think about this idea. The reason I raise it now is
because it would require me to keep my fleet in Rum, since you can't support
an attack on Sev (and I can't support you attacking me either), which affects
this season's moves.
--- Eric
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
I am having sort of a running dialog with Andy, and I would like to know, what would you like me to encourage him to do?
Hope all is well with you - of course I worry for you as for me, a smaller power trapped between two larger ones.
Best wishes & good luck.
Ben
Message from Russia to Russia
Well, I seem to be falling behind on my trend of sending more press to
myself/observers than to any other players. :)
Very interesting situation I find myself in. I would love to see Andy keep
his army in the south to give me some leverage on Jason, but I think I can
live without it. I have definitely considered the Rum S Ser-Bul option to
counter the AT attack, but I think I'm better off working with AT for the
moment. This will be a big mistake if Philippe is not serious about given me
Vie, but I can't pass up the offer at this point. Even though both AI want me
to attack (or set up to attack) Jason, I'd rather not do that at this point.
If Jason goes for the removal of fleets I suggested, I could completely see
holding in Rum now, and then in Spring moving Sev-Arm, Rum-Sev, and setting
up on Ank and Rum for Fall. But that's getting ahead of myself -- and it's
making a perhaps unfair guess that Jason will not see the possibility of this
stab -- but it would be pretty amazing if it came to be.
The north is the bigger conundrum for me. I would really like to stop Ben,
because he is holding a huge edge over me and I hate being at a disadvantage
(despite the fact that I think I play better in bad positions than good
ones). However, I cannot overlook how devastated Tony's position would be if
I support Ben into Kie (and Ben takes it). Even if Ben came after me
afterwards, it might be worth losing Scandinavia to get that opening into the
West -- I could probably offer to let him keep the whole territory unopposed
if he goes after France. This is especially true if Philippe really lets me
into Vie, because I'd have an army advantage in Germany proper, and might be
able to take Mun, Ber, Kie to make up for the lost Scandinavian centers.
The down side is that it loses Erik's support, but if I can convince Erik to
move to Iri/NAO/Lon based on Tony and I taking Den at the same time, that
would be fantastic. The problem is that it's fine for Ben to know I'm playing
him and Tony off of each other, but if Ben finds out that I'm encouraging
Erik to attack him, then I'm in trouble. I'd like to figure out a way to give
Tony the 3-way press he's requesting without giving him ammunition for Ben.
Unfortunately the only solution I can see so far is SO manipulative that I
can't imagine it working: Press to RGF agreeing to take Den, press to EFR
alerting E that the RGF press was sent to mislead G and private press to F
saying that the press to EFR about RFG's press is to mislead E.
Of course, this all hinges on Ben actually taking my support to Kie, which is
somewhat iffy. I could imagine supporting Tony into Den, even though that
would probably lead to GE, it also gets Erik firmly on my side. The down side
there is that if I support Erik, I've also got to support Andy (Sev-Arm and
Rum S Ser-Bul). Otherwise Erik will have too free a ride in the west.
The final thing I could do if I want to be *completely* piggy is to order Bal
S Sil-Ber. That would get me a build, give Ben a build with which to hold off
Erik, but still decimate Tony. I could then build F StP/nc and push for
Germany and Scandinavia.
As you can see, I'm sitting in overanalysis central over here. I tend to
think I'll go with supporting Den-Kie, second choice is supporting Sil-Ber,
third choice is supporting Tony to Den. In the south, I'll probably go for
Vie, let Jason take Ser, and hope that Jason goes for the fleet disband
suggestions.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
> As I said earlier, I think it's too early this year you to vacate Black,
but
> I have an idea for next year that DMZes the Black and gets us both a lot of
> momentum east.
Duh! Obviously I meant west.
Your directionally challenged friend,
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to England
Talking with Andy, huh. Good deal. Just let me know if you think he's
coming after me sooner or later. I'm fairly sure it's sooner, but if you
have better info, that'd be great.
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Thanks for your note.
Your plan makes sense. I'd prefer to hold Rum in the long run, and I
certainly understand you wanting Bla empty in the long run.
jason
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Talking with Andy, huh. Good deal. Just let me know if you think he's
> coming after me sooner or later. I'm fairly sure it's sooner, but if you
> have better info, that'd be great.
Actually I had thought he was attacking France, though it's possible he is
moving in both directions at once. . .
Good luck, if you're right.
Ben
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
Just want to verify that what I suggested would have me keeping Rum next
season. I'm open to you having Rum after that (or even right away if I
actually gain ground in other areas) but for now I was saying, you get Ser
and Gre, I get Bud, and we both disband our fleets. Given that, does it still
work for you?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Damned with all my typos!
Just want to verify that what I suggested would have me keeping Rum next
>year< [I said "season" in the last message"]. I'm open to you having Rum
after that (or even right away if I actually gain ground in other areas) but
for now I was saying: you get Ser and Gre (plus Tri if we're really lucky), I
get Bud and keep Rum, and we both disband our fleets. Given that, does it
still work for you?
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to England
Heading west? That's strange - he tried to move his fleets to Alb and
Ion last turn. Doesn't seem consistent.
Ah, well, either way.
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Ok, let me make sure I'm clear. I would get Rum in 1905, not 1904?
jason
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Heading west? That's strange - he tried to move his fleets to Alb and
> Ion last turn. Doesn't seem consistent.
Well, it's not totally farfetched, considering (a) he is at war with
Austria as well, and (b) whatever he was *trying* to do, his position could
go either way *now*. But it's not like Andy exactly tells me what he's
thinking, either - I'm trying to read between the lines here - so as you
say:
> Ah, well, either way.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Curiously Erik is /still/ silent. Well, we will see.
(a) Have you heard from him, and
(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
Thanks.
Ben
Message from England to England
Well, I am not pleased by the recent silence, but there it is. Perhaps
things will pick up as the deadline nears.
My press to Turkey about Italy heading to France was designed to be a tip
passed along to France, of course. It was pretty ham-handed, and I do not
think it worked, but I don't think it hurt, anyway. My press to Andy
started out as a sincere effort to do some research, asking him whether
Erik had inquired about the bounce in WES, but I tried to take advantage of
Andy's response. I tried to use a lighter touch than with Jason, of
course, but in both cases I can't help but feel I missed my mark. The
archive will tell the tale. . .
While on the subject of Andy, I wonder whether he's written to himself
once. He didn't at all, if I remember correctly, in C1, which disappointed
me at the time.
I am once bitten by each Eric and Tony. Strategically I /think/ Tony is
correct that my fall would be bad for him. *But* as you all know Tony and
I are speaking different languages - yes, I mean figuratively - and I am
not at all confident that he sees the board the same way I do. On the
other hand, Eric is a player more like myself - more sophisticated, I
think, but at least in a similar mold - long term, definitely the
preferable choice. Between the two, if *I* was Germany, I would probably
sincerely reach out to England, and if *I* was Russia I might /attack/
England. But I am not Germany, and I am not at all confident that Tony
thinks as I do. So I am treating it short term as pretty much a 50/50 shot
(of course if they collaborate it's a 0/100 shot - not worth adding a
separate calculation), so I will look long term and likely order to KIE and
DEN. My earlier stated preference for Tony was based on what I thought
/then/ was a soon-to-fall deadline.
Ben
Message from France to England
Ben:
My apologies for the long silence. I can now report firsthand that this is
one of the nastiest flu seasons in years. I'm just glad it happened to hit
me during a week with a deadline extension. I'll try to keep this to the
point for now, but I should be around pretty constantly until deadline.
Obviously, I'd like to see you use Nth to cut Hel's support, but I
understand that you might need use F Nth to support Den - Kie. Are you
also moving Ska - Den? Is there any chance that you would be willing to
order Nth - Hel? I know you'd like to see Holland in English control, but
I think that as long as we've got a chance to take German centers, we
should.
Russia has mostly been writing me to tell me to write you, so perhaps he's
truly interested in cooperation now that he has Scandanavia under control.
Of course, he's already used me to play you once ...
I'll try to hold Holland the best I can and cut support from Munich for
whatever.
Any idea what's going on elsewhere? I've been a little out of it.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Thanks for your patience. I'll cut the chit-chat and get to business.
I'd like to move on Iri, but I'm concerned about the English gaining a
center and being able to build in Lon or Edi, thereby nullifying the
advantage that the move to Iri confers. I'm guessing, based on what I've
heard so far, that England is more or less guaranteed to keep Den? Or do
you have other plans afoot?
If England is going to gain the build, I'd just as soon finish of Germany
than start in on Ben.
Erik
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
My silence is only indicative of a severe workload and a really nasty flu.
I am back online now and feeling much better.
Your "carve me up" broadcast was amusing. While I appreciate your
generosity in your firesale, I'm not looking to see you gone, not with
Russia looking as strong as he is. Did anything come of my suggestion that
you and he negotiate his assistance in expelling Ben from Denmark.
I am willing to move to Iri, but only if I'm sure England won't be gaining
a build. Otherwise, I'm better off keeping Mao around to guard against
Italy.
Erik
Message from France to Italy
Andy:
My apologies for the silence. I've been laid up with the flu all week. I am
just starting to feel normal again.
I am most certainly not coming to Wes, and I would hope that you're not,
either. Why would I start anything with you when I've got my hands full
with EGR?
Erik
Message from Italy to France
> My apologies for the silence. I've been laid up with the flu all week. I am
> just starting to feel normal again.
>
> I am most certainly not coming to Wes, and I would hope that you're not,
> either. Why would I start anything with you when I've got my hands full
> with EGR?
I dont know either but G and R are telling me that you are coming for me.
Message from Germany to France
Hello Erik, good to hear from. Yes, Russia has tsated that he will support
me into Denmark.
I am having a little bit of trouble believing him, especially as I mentioned
your concern to him.
On the other hand I find it hard to believe that he will help ENgland to two
builds. England states that RUssia is supporting DEN - KIE to allow SKA to
enter DEN thus gaining two builds for England.
I would have thought that you and Russia would be communicating. I have
asked Russia to start up a 3 way conversation, maybe you should otherwise.
I may just have to go for the carve me up option ;-)
Message from England to France
Erik -
> My apologies for the long silence. I can now report firsthand that this is
> one of the nastiest flu seasons in years. I'm just glad it happened to hit
> me during a week with a deadline extension. I'll try to keep this to the
> point for now, but I should be around pretty constantly until deadline.
I remember reading some people have already died from the flu this year.
Yech.
> Obviously, I'd like to see you use Nth to cut Hel's support, but I
> understand that you might need use F Nth to support Den - Kie. Are you
> also moving Ska - Den? Is there any chance that you would be willing to
> order Nth - Hel? I know you'd like to see Holland in English control, but
> I think that as long as we've got a chance to take German centers, we
> should.
I agree that HOL should be non-German first and English second, but as I
recall Russia had intelligence that HEL - DEN was going to be the German
order, in which case I would need to order NTH s SKA - DEN.
> Russia has mostly been writing me to tell me to write you, so perhaps he's
> truly interested in cooperation now that he has Scandanavia under control.
> Of course, he's already used me to play you once ...
Yes, yes. Still I am inclined to throw my lot that way one more time. As
I've commented to the observers - I am once bitten by Tony and once bitten
by Eric. I am hopeful Eric will play it straight now that he has his
buffer, like you say.
> I'll try to hold Holland the best I can and cut support from Munich for
> whatever.
Sounds good.
> Any idea what's going on elsewhere? I've been a little out of it.
People are being pretty quiet. You make Andy nervous but I don't know
whether it's something you need to press immediately - you will have to
make that call.
My guess is, T thinks there is an RT and I thinks there is an IR.
Ben
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason,
I am not sure what your relationship with Russia is, but it appears that
you and he have been slowly burying the hatchet, and he is getting at
least one build up north, maybe 2 if the English get sloppy. And he is
begging me to attack you, or support him to attack you. WHICH WILL NOT
HAPPEN.
I have been looking at the map, and if I am Russia, my moves are;
SEV - ARM
RUM - BUL (which he thinks I am supporting him to)
UKR - RUM
GAL s UKR - RUm
It leaves SEV for a build an gets me position on you all over the place,
while Italy twists in the wind aginst Austria.
protect yourself, or hell...move on him...he is getting way too big
anyway.
take care
Andy
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
>I'd like to move on Iri, but I'm concerned about the English gaining a
>center and being able to build in Lon or Edi, thereby nullifying the
>advantage that the move to Iri confers. I'm guessing, based on what I've
>heard so far, that England is more or less guaranteed to keep Den? Or do
>you have other plans afoot?
I've been waiting on hearing from you to determine this. Tony has asked for
support to Den. Ben has asked for support to Kie. Either way can work for
us. Or I could give neither, in which case Ben gets one, and Tony goes down
one or two (depending on Hol). So it's kind of up to whatever works for us.
So what's your preference?
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Italy
Thanks for the heads up. I'll make sure to cover myself.
jason
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Any last minute thoughts?
Ben
Message from England to England
Eric -
Promise me the Raiders will roll over like that for us next week.
Ben
Message from France to Russia
I definitely don't want England to gain two centers this turn -- that will
give him way too much levarage against either of us down the road. We need
to keep him to one, at best.
Perhaps the best course of action would be to support Germany from Hel -
Den. This guarantees that I keep Holland, keeps England at three and
knocks Germany down to four.
If that happens, the only question is what's better -- bounce Italy in Wes
for security or head for Lvp? If I can get a build of F Bre, that move to
Lvp may not really be necessary, and keeping Mao around will definitely
allow me to move comfortably around England while keeping Andy in check.
Thoughts?
Erik
Message from France to Italy
Would you like to bounce in Wes, then? It's a sure way of keeping the
peace.
Erik
Message from Italy to France
>
> Would you like to bounce in Wes, then? It's a sure way of keeping the
> peace.
Actually NO...I dont want to.
I have much bigger problems than that.
Message from Italy to Italy
Here we go again.
France will move to the Western Med, and then make some lame ass excuse
about how he didnt believe me
that is my gut feeling, especially after this little note.
Message from France to Italy
>
> Actually NO...I dont want to.
>
> I have much bigger problems than that.
What kind of problems? Frankly, a bounce in Wes works well for me, so I'd
kind of like to know what you need your fleets for.
Erik
Message from Italy to France
>
>
> What kind of problems? Frankly, a bounce in Wes works well for me, so I'd
> kind of like to know what you need your fleets for.
>
ION - GRE
TUN - ION
is what my fleets are doing.
Please dont go to WES.
Message from Italy to England
Yeah....Erik is coming for me.
But there isnt a thing in the world I can do about it.
He is basically going to collapse my position, so that the Russian attack
on Turkey goes off like clockwork and it collapses my position, the
Russian will be at probably 12 or so by 05'.
I would urge you to tell him that this is a foolish way to go.
thanks
Andy
Message from Italy to Italy
I am once again showing too much of my hand. Especially if England and
France are working together.
But Ben will probably heed my warning.
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Your Pitkisser colleague Doug Moore just soloed in '07 in Oobleck, on DEDO. As Russia.
> Yeah....Erik is coming for me.
I thought he might be. :-(
> But there isnt a thing in the world I can do about it.
Hm. I know I've offered before & you haven't taken me up on it - if you need me to pass something along to one of your neighbors in the East, let me know. Particularly with regards to Austria, I may be able to bend his ear, though I don't think he would do anything obviously pro-Italian.
> He is basically going to collapse my position, so that the Russian attack
> on Turkey goes off like clockwork and it collapses my position, the
> Russian will be at probably 12 or so by 05'.
Ah. I should introduce him to Doug.
> I would urge you to tell him that this is a foolish way to go.
I will try.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> Your Pitkisser colleague Doug Moore just soloed in '07 in Oobleck, on
DEDO. As Russia.
>
And a great guy. Im not surprised at all.
> > Yeah....Erik is coming for me.
> I thought he might be. :-(
He keeps making allusions toward wanting a bounce, and I have told him
catagorically that I dont want the bounce, but I know he will interpret
that as I am lying to him, and he will be going to WES.
> > But there isnt a thing in the world I can do about it.
> Hm. I know I've offered before & you haven't taken me up on it - if
you need me to pass something along to one of your neighbors in the
East, let me know. Particularly with regards to Austria, I may be able
to bend his ear, though I don't think he would do anything obviously
pro-Italian.
>
Make sure the Turk knows I am working with him.
> > He is basically going to collapse my position, so that the Russian attack
> > on Turkey goes off like clockwork and it collapses my position, the
> > Russian will be at probably 12 or so by 05'.
> Ah. I should introduce him to Doug.
Yeah.
>
> > I would urge you to tell him that this is a foolish way to go.
> I will try.
thanks
Andy
Message from England to Italy
> Make sure the Turk knows I am working with him.
I will write him. Good plan; I will let you know what he says.
Ben
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
>
> Hello Erik, good to hear from. Yes, Russia has tsated that he will
> support
> me into Denmark.
>
> I am having a little bit of trouble believing him, especially as I
> mentioned
> your concern to him.
My concern?
In any case, I think he may be telling the truth about Den -- he doesn't
want to see any more English growth, as you've pointed out. If he does
proceed with supporting you back into Den, I will make a grab for Iri and
you'll have another shot at getting back on your feet.
Erik
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
I just received an interesting communique from Andy. I am now pretty confident of IF conflict in the /very/ /near/ future, and I would urge you to let them go at each other without interfering against Andy. France is big enough, and if Russia comes down hard on you you will need such help as you can get from Andy.
I do not think you will need to decide on this point in the immediate future, but if you are thinking along these lines, please let me know so we can sort out the best global strategy. Right now the two leaders are F and R, and you and I will both do well to see their growth curtailed. . .
What do you think?
Ben
Message from Turkey to England
Well, that complicates things.
Austria has promised to support me to Ser this turn, and I was hoping to
get Gre on top of that. That would give me two builds, and better parity
with Russia. I can shift to attacking Rum if you think that's a better idea.
jason
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
>(a) Have you heard from him, and
I got a brief message from him that looks to have come in this AM, when
this one did.
>(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
I won't insult your intelligence by saying I haven't looked at the options,
but nothing about keeping Tony big or giving France a free pass in the west
looks like it would be advantageous to me. While you around Scandinavia is
scary, I like the facts that (1) you'll be moving away even if it's only
briefly, (2) that it keeps the west somewhat up for grabs and (3) you
growing will give France something to worry about. While I *do* value our
relationship, I look for moves that give a reason for both of us to be
happy. I focused most in my last messages about why I hope taking the
support to Kie is good for you, obviously I selfishly see it good for me,
too. Den-Kie (assuming you are going to take it) is my best move. If you
confirm you will be taking it, then I will confirm ordering it. Last I
heard, Tony was still asking for Kie-Den, not Hel-Den. That means there is
a chance that he will burn me and support himself in Kie, but I'll order
the support.
>Promise me the Raiders will roll over like that for us next week.
LOL! I can make no such guarantees, but I wouldn't bet against it either.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Here's my quandary:
#1) I can handle having Ben mad at me for supporting Tony against him if
he's under pressure from you. If he's not, then hitting Den with Tony is
just begging for GE to combine to take Swe/Nwy. I'd like to know you are
going to hit him if you want me to as well.
#2) Tony has been bugging me to write something like this in a three-way, R
to FG press. I've been hesitant, because I expect he would share any such
thing with Ben. In fact, there's some oddness because Ben could hold in Den
to ensure that he holds it (otherwise Nth/Ska S Den means I can't force it
with Tony), so we both need to make sure he thinks that I'm supporting the
move if we want him to not get a build. You don't need to go out of your
way to say anything to him, but if he asks, then you should probably tell
him that I'm supporting him. Even if we're going to just pound on Germany,
it's still good for Ben to think I'm helping him, because Kie could support
action against Hol. Ben cutting that support is helpful however we look at
it. Do you think a three way press with Germany is an okay way to go?
--- Eric
Message from France to Russia
>
> #1) I can handle having Ben mad at me for supporting Tony against him if
> he's under pressure from you. If he's not, then hitting Den with Tony is
> just begging for GE to combine to take Swe/Nwy. I'd like to know you are
> going to hit him if you want me to as well.
I'll make a final call tomorrow before the evening. For now, I think I am
probably going to move to Iri. A lot depends on how reliable I think my
read of Andy's moves are.
>
> #2) Tony has been bugging me to write something like this in a
> three-way, R
> to FG press. I've been hesitant, because I expect he would share any
> such
> thing with Ben.
I know what you mean. I haven't actually seen Tony forward any press yet,
so I don't know he makes a habit of that sort of thing, but if he does,
our prose is different enough from his to avoid questions of fakery. If he
just reports on the three-way press, Ben may not really believe him --
Tony's shown a consistent pattern of false information throughout the
game.
If I hit Iri, we're guaranteed some sort of EG cooperation discussion. The
question is whether or not that cooperation will be too little, too late
to save them. I think the more ground we can gain this turn, the better,
so I'd prefer to keep the two of them isolated and segmented for now.
Still, if you think a 3-way press will help seal the deal, go for it.
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
I think R is on the only one who truly knows whether it's RT or IR, and I
expect it's neither.
I guess as long as you're hitting Kiel, I've got a decent chance at holding
Hol anyway. And if I don't, at least I'm not down any.
Big question in my mind: Andy's plans. He doesn't want to bounce in Wes,
which is fine unless he wants to move unimpeded into Wes. Any idea what
he's up to?
Erik
Message from Germany to England
None whatsoever Ben, I am flying blind on this one. I have no idea who or what to believe. I have no coordinated moves with anyone.
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Austria has promised to support me to Ser this turn, and I
> was hoping to
> get Gre on top of that. That would give me two builds, and
> better parity
> with Russia. I can shift to attacking Rum if you think that's
> a better idea.
Actually, I do think that's a better idea. Long term an AT is more
favorable to T than an RT, which is notoriously pro-Russia. Plus you'd clip
his wings before he comes down on you first.
I'll send Austria a note trying to grease those wheels.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
I think Andy is about to get an unpleasant surprise from the west. Also I
believe the timing is perfect to split up the RT, if you think you can
manage it. My guess is, Andy is about to be *seriously* distracted from
elsewhere, and RT relations are alittle cool right now. If you can figure
out a way to take advantage, IRT would be in shambles and you would again be
on the rise.
I would recommend, if you can choose, that you work with Turkey against
Russia, who is plenty big enough already. If you can resurrect the AT
against Russia, I would consider it a favor returned.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> None whatsoever Ben, I am flying blind on this one. I have no
> idea who or what to believe. I have no coordinated moves with anyone.
Ok, this is fine, because as I understand your recommendations to me, I
don't really need your help for anything, except that you don't cut my
supports. If you do, well, we are both in trouble.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> >(a) Have you heard from him, and
>
> I got a brief message from him that looks to have come in
> this AM, when this one did.
Ah, yes. He's returned to the land of the living since I wrote this. Good
news, I guess; he seems unchanged.
> >(b) would you soothe my nerves by confirming support for DEN - KIE?
>
> I won't insult your intelligence by saying I haven't looked
> at the options,
> but nothing about keeping Tony big or giving France a free
> pass in the west
> looks like it would be advantageous to me. While you around
> Scandinavia is
> scary, I like the facts that (1) you'll be moving away even
> if it's only
> briefly, (2) that it keeps the west somewhat up for grabs and (3) you
> growing will give France something to worry about. While I
> *do* value our
> relationship, I look for moves that give a reason for both of us to be
> happy. I focused most in my last messages about why I hope taking the
> support to Kie is good for you, obviously I selfishly see it
> good for me,
> too. Den-Kie (assuming you are going to take it) is my best
> move. If you
> confirm you will be taking it, then I will confirm ordering it. Last I
> heard, Tony was still asking for Kie-Den, not Hel-Den. That
> means there is
> a chance that he will burn me and support himself in Kie, but
> I'll order the support.
I'll still get the one build & will push for KIE/HOL next year, if that
happens.
> >Promise me the Raiders will roll over like that for us next week.
>
> LOL! I can make no such guarantees, but I wouldn't bet
> against it either.
:-)
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Well Ben that does leave me with a problem, one I would obviously share.
That is if I dont cut the support from NTH then NTH could for example be
used to help France keep Holland.
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason, I sent this on Friday, but I don't see the judge confirmation. If this
is a duplicate please excuse me. (Technically, it's slightly different than
what I sent Friday -- I made a few minor proofreading edits before resending,
but it's really the same message.)
Actually, my original proposal was that I keep Rum. I had not initially
considered that you would want Rum, so honestly had not included it. But
since it's important to you, I modified my proposal to try to take your
desire into account. The logic of my suggestion depended on the idea that we
both end up disbanding units without losing any centers, so it would have to
be you taking Rum in 05 for my plan to work.
The point of having you disband Rum and then me disband it right afterwards
is to allow both of us a "free build". Whether or not you keep Rum in '04,
you still get a build. Giving you Rum in 04 doesn't really help you against
AI (you build one with it or with out it), and it hurts me (I lose one
unit) so yes, I would want to hold Rum in 04. This lets us both rebuild right
on the front lines, which will help me get a center somewhere to make up for
the loss of Rum when it does come.
For you Bla turns into Smy, giving you support in Eas and pressure on Andy.
And even better, because you will be disbanding my F Rum before you go, you
don't have to worry about what I might do with my fleet when you vacate Bla.
Same thing for me -- it DMZes the Bla and it gives me a free unit on my front
lines in exchange for removing what is basically a useless fleet. In essence
we both get a build without having to actually gain any centers. After that,
we can still cooperate to each get at least one build off of AI. That means
three builds for you in two years (four if we get lucky and can get you Tun,
Nap or Tri in 04, all of which are real possibilities). So I really didn't
think me holding Rum in 04 would be a problem for you.
Obviously, if I'm do really well up north then I can probably give you Rum in
04. But I'm assuming I will need the rebuilt unit in the short term, so would
like to hold onto Rum in 04 so I can get enough units in place to get center
to make up for its loss when I do hand it over.
I'm hoping that being specific here about why I want Rum in 04 and why it
doesn't hurt you is helpful and not annoying. Tell me if I'm sounding too
much like a Ronco commercial or anything ("it slices, captures SCs *and*
takes out the trash!")
Have a good weekend. It sounds like it shouldn't be a problem for me to hold
F Rum in place, so I'll do that and we can continue to discuss details of 04
through the builds if you have other suggestions.
Gotta run. Let me know if I'm missing anything!
--- Eric
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Well Ben that does leave me with a problem, one I would
> obviously share.
> That is if I dont cut the support from NTH then NTH could for
> example be used to help France keep Holland.
Oh. I misunderstood you before.
Ok, as I understand it, all prior discussions are off the table. NTH will
have to be occupied, of course; you will cut that support if you must,
though I think you will regret it when you see the results.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I think R is on the only one who truly knows whether it's RT
> or IR, and I expect it's neither.
Neither yet, I agree. He will take his time.
> I guess as long as you're hitting Kiel, I've got a decent
> chance at holding
> Hol anyway. And if I don't, at least I'm not down any.
I think as long as Russia stays true to the cause, we are ok.
> Big question in my mind: Andy's plans. He doesn't want to
> bounce in Wes,
> which is fine unless he wants to move unimpeded into Wes. Any
> idea what he's up to?
I know he is very worried about you. I recently (since I wrote you) got a
press from him, and the gist of it was, he feels like he has to cover WES,
which I understand to mean, he thinks even if you now agree *not* to bounce,
he will have to be worried you will be going to WES anyway. So either way,
agreement or not, I think he is going to WES. But that is a *lot* of
reading between the lines on my part and I am not sure at all.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Sorry for the long delay, but I was offline for the weekend and didn't hear
from France until last night. From what I'm hearing, Erik sounds like he's
willing to go along with everything you and I have discussed. In fact, he's
enthusiastic enough that he specifically asked that I support you Hel-Den for
what I think are obvious and selfish reasons (he wants to make sure that Hel
is not available to attack Hol). I'm not as worried about making sure he
keeps Hol :), so I'm still happy to support either Kie-Den.
I haven't sent a three way FGR message just because I've been trying to touch
base with everyone. If you want to kick off a three way message between us,
I'm fine with that.
And when I looked over your messages I noticed several references to concern
about me supporting Den-Kie. Trust me, I am not interested in seeing Ben get
a secure footing with all of those units he has threatening Scandinavia!
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Germany
Well no commitement of anybody so far. I have no idea if any seed of doubt
has been sown amongst EFR.
I find that Russia hasn't really offered to support me to Denmark, unless I
missed a press somewhere. He has been to vague. I will just have to play the
moves as though all three were hostile. The fact that RF haven't started a 3
way press must mean something.
Message from Germany to England
>>Ok, as I understand it, all prior discussions are off the table>>
I wish there were discussions on the table. The only commitment I have in
word is that of Russia, for wha't it's worth.
I have asked that you cut BAL. I have asked that you dont help France. I
have asked that you attack Norway.
You havent commited to any suggestion just left me in the dark. At the
moment my moves I hope reflect the best possible defence taking into account
that all three of you will be hostile.
Message from Germany to France and Russia
So what is happening guys. It's a little late to start a 3 way press but
here goes.
I am quite happy to lose Holland to France. I am hoping Erik sends a signle
for France to look at MAO - IRI.
I am ordering kie - den supported by hel. If bal supports this effort then I
hope it succeeds.
I am assuming that this means nwy - swe to prevent any retreat to sweden. If
ER are against me then all I can hope for would be Holland. I think it is
worth the risk. If England grows with two units then he has to eventually
attack france or russia.
let me know and I will send in orders, I would prefer to hear from both.
Message from France to Russia
> So what is happening guys. It's a little late to start a 3 way press but
> here goes.
> I am quite happy to lose Holland to France. I am hoping Erik sends a
> signle
> for France to look at MAO - IRI.
> I am ordering kie - den supported by hel. If bal supports this effort
> then I
> hope it succeeds.
Do you think he's on the level here? I've never known Tony to be
straightforward, but his plan makes sense for him, and I don't think he
could somehow leverage us off of England to take back both Den and Hol.
What do you want to do?
Erik
Message from Germany to Germany
Well a last minute press from Russia may make me change my mind. The moves I
had ordered were hel - hol supported by kie and ruh - bel to cut support. I
am now considering kie - den supported by hel.
I still think that i will be screwed by RF and maybe even E. Ben hasnt
commited to any move and has just left me with a trust me message. Thats a
shame. I would rather be attacking holland and defending berlin. I will give
it one more shot. Maybe time for a miscommunication, it may just work ;-)
Message from Germany to England
Ben, this is how I would like to see the move come about but I doubt they
will.
I cant live on "trust me, I am the ruler of england messages".
You take norway and keep denmark and build two. Denmark does cut
support from BAL and I cut support from SIL. This to keep Berlin mine. At
the same time I try to
retake Holland.
Message from Germany to England
We still have ten hours left, I dont think you have to worry about me
informing Russia of any moves.
broadcast to g
Well as you guys can see I am still trying to get Ben onto my side. I would
much rather be saving Berlin and retaking Holland than praying for help from
France or Russia. I believe EG is the only way forward for both of us.
They have both indicated as I have pointed out that Ben has nowhere to go if
he takes two builds but to attack one of them pretty soon.
I was hoping to use this to get Ben onboard but he has to see it himself. I
dont believe France or Russia when they say Ben is pushing to be helped into
Kiel it just doesnt make sense. I dont think Russia would ever do that. It's
just a shame that Ben wont commit to anything and asks me to trust him.
The last minute press from Russia hasn't convinced me but my moves are not
made up. I still have a few hours left.
The moves I have ordered with wait status are ruh - hol supported by hel and
kie, mun support ber.
I still think that i will be screwed by RF and so will Ben.
Ben hasnt commited to any move and has just left me with a trust me message.
Thats a
shame. I would rather be attacking holland and defending berlin with some
help. I will give
it one more shot as you can see from my last press to Ben.
Message from Germany to Germany
LOL, well my miscommunication went badly wrong. I ended up receving a get
package from the judge.
I think my renewed message to Ben was a little obvious regarding the so
called error.
I didnt have anything to say to him, I must practice the error message more
intensely.
There is not much else I can do now, I will wait and see if FR respond to
the press. But unless Ben comes up with some kind of commitment I will have
to either trust Russia or just consider all powers hostile and guess the
best I can.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Ben, this is how I would like to see the move come about but
> I doubt they will.
> I cant live on "trust me, I am the ruler of england messages".
Sorry. I was reluctant to give you my specific moves. But based on your
move to SIL, taking care of my last reservation, here they are.
> You take norway and keep denmark and build two. Denmark does cut
> support from BAL and I cut support from SIL. This to keep
> Berlin mine. At the same time I try to retake Holland.
I intended all along to take Norway. I had been reluctant to order DEN -
BAL because of the possibility of BAL - BER, though if you will be cutting
SIL then I will not worry about it anymore.
Done.
Ben
Message from England to England
> Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Germany to England in 'c2':
>
> We still have ten hours left, I dont think you have to worry about me
> informing Russia of any moves.
> broadcast to g
> Well as you guys can see I am still trying to get Ben onto my
> side. I would
> much rather be saving Berlin and retaking Holland than
> praying for help from
> France or Russia. I believe EG is the only way forward for both of us.
Good lord, I must look to him like a simpleton. Maybe I am. . .
Earlier drafts of press to Tony have pointed out to him that, when I've told
him my moves, he has taken advantage. Twice, as I recall, of the two times
I've told him, to my detriment. So why would he expect me to tell him
again? Not that I won't work with him - just that the framework has to
shift. Yes, I'll work with him, no I won't tell him my exact moves.
So, he tells me the framework cannot shift. I must tell him my moves.
Sure, I can be flexible - but I don't have to be that flexible, yet.
Ben
Message from Russia to France
Yes, I think he's on the level. I think he's also going to try to wring
something out of Ben, but he has been much more adamant and specific about
how this could work than he has been with any previous moveset. That said, he
may just want to see us make those orders and could have some other devious
plan in mind. If that's the case, then I don't see what his alternate plan
is.
BTW, I just wrote him and told him it was fine with me if he initiated a
3-way press, which is probably why he waited until now to send it.
--- Eric
Message from Germany to England
I had a last minute message from Russia stating that he would be supporting
me to Denmark with BAL. So this means that if he isn't lying then DEN - BAL
is safe. As you also pointed out with me cutting support from SIL then BAL -
BER supported by SIL also wont work. That's why I need BAL cut to ensure
SIL - BER supported by BAL doeesnt work either. Giving up Denmark but
gaining an ally is worth the price.
I myself and expecting him to support himself to Berlin. Probably using SIL
supported by BAL. I will definitely be cutting SIL support and going for
Holland. My definite orders are now in, wait status removed. Good luck to us
both.
Message from Germany to Germany
Well the error press may or may not have helped, Bens words sounded genuine.
I will trust my gut on this one. Who knows, Russia may be telling the truth.
I could misuse it and attack DEN anyway. This means that I would regain
Denamrk if Russia was telling the truth. The problem with this is that I
would lose England as an ally (if I gain him).
I cant attack DEN, protect SIL and retake HOL all at once. I will trust Ben
on this one.
Message from Russia to France
> but he has been much more adamant and specific about
> how this could work than he has been with any previous moveset.
I should clarify this. In the past he's talked really casually about moves
with me, like "How about XYZ for moves?" This season he's been getting really
nitty gritty with planning and negotiating strategies; things like: "Be sure
to tell France that if England gets a build he could come after him with F
Lvp" and "be sure that England thinks you are going to support Den-Kie" (that
latter message came from him before I told Tony that I had told Ben such
things). So while he may not be being truthful about what he's going to do,
he's certainly interested in seeing us follow through with our ends of the
bargain.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Something else to consider -- if he doesn't trust me to support him, Tony may
order either Ber S Mun-Kie or Mun S Ber-Kie. If that's true, then one of us
may be able to pick up a "freebie" build if you order Bur-Mun and I order
Sil-Ber. It's a longshot, as he may just order Mun S Ber and Ber S Mun, but
we could give it a try.
Again, let me know what you think.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Jason still is talking about how he'll end up in Ser, so if you are looking
to support him there, that should still work. You still want me to move to
Vie? I'm not 100% certain I'll be able to build F Sev (if it comes to that)
but I should still have some leverage on Jason if he doesn't come through
with it.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
I cannot believe I am doing this stuff. This is SOOO not the way I play
diplomacy. I am usually very careful to (try to) set up plans where all of my
neighbors want me to do what I'm going to do (similar to my negotiations with
Erik, Ben and Tony last Fall, even though both Ben and Tony attacked me, I
was "safe" and was in a fine position to negotiate with each of them directly
afterwards). Now I am actively considering burning every diplomatic bridge
I've got to F, G and I, all the while still considering stabbing E and/or T
right afterwards. And I *still* haven't ruled out the idea of not supporting
England or Germany while attaking Ber.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to England
Ben,
My position is so difficult that you shouldn't expect me
to go against RT anytime soon. Simply getting Jason to
attack Italy is difficult enough, I'm not about to try to
convince him to also attack Russia.
Let's see what happen, then we can talk about my
doing anything beside trying to survive.
Philippe.
P.-S. You are hinting at a french invasion of Italy, but
since France didn't bother telling me about it, haven't
heard from him in a long time, I think it's quite possible
that he's moving against you instead.
Message from Austria to Russia
> Jason still is talking about how he'll end up in Ser, so if you are looking
> to support him there, that should still work. You still want me to move to
> Vie? I'm not 100% certain I'll be able to build F Sev (if it comes to that)
> but I should still have some leverage on Jason if he doesn't come through
> with it.
I would like you to get in position to help against Andy
even if you have to take sc from me to do so, so go for
either Vie or Boh.
What do you know of Andy's plan this fall?
Philippe
Message from Russia to Italy
All he's given me about his plans was about the Spring moves, and that all
turned out to be false anyway. I would not be surprised to see him try to
keep Gre from Jason (thereby losing Ser) but I would not be stunned to see
him try to take Tri, either.
He's not asked for any specific supports from me for the Fall, but that just
means that he's not trying to take Bud off of you for the moment.
Sorry, I know that's really not much information, but that's all I've got for
now.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
@#$$%
I sent my response to your message to Andy. Dammit. I knew I was going to
blow that.
I only said that he had not asked for support against you, but I made a
comment about Ser, so he may see that coming now. Damn, damn, damn.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
Whoops!
Clearly that was not a message meant for you.
Philippe had asked what you were up to, and I was trying to be coy in
response. But I meant it to be in response to him, not to you, obviously.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Here's the response I inadvertently sent to Andy. The problem is the three
words in parentheses in the second sentence. He's smart enough to know what
that means, even though he can't defend against it.
--- Eric
>All he's given me about his plans was about the Spring moves, and that
>all turned out to be false anyway. I would not be surprised to see him
>try to keep Gre from Jason (thereby losing Ser) but I would not be
>stunned to see him try to take Tri, either.
>He's not asked for any specific supports from me for the Fall, but that
>just means that he's not trying to take Bud off of you for the moment.
>Sorry, I know that's really not much information, but that's all I've got
>for now.
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
What I am proposing instead is, an AT against *R* instead of I. Jason may be interested, based on press I've received from him. But perhaps not.
Either way, I am glad to see you back on your feet.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Good luck to us both.
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. Here we go.
Ben
Message from England to England
This seals it:
> I had a last minute message from Russia stating that he would be supporting
> me to Denmark with BAL.
Russia is aware of NTH s SKA - DEN. So he should know that this would be a profitless stab (barring HEL - NTH). Therefore I will stick with SKA - DEN, DEN - KIE.
Ben
Message from Russia to Austria and Turkey
Greetings neighbors.
I've already told Philippe this, but because it's a potentially big screwup
that affects, I wanted to warn you both about my recent blunder and give some
thoughts.
My error was that I inadvertently sent a message intended for Philippe about
Andy to Andy. The message didn't say much at all (because I don't know much
about what Andy is going to do) but I did have an offhand reference to Andy
losing Ser in the message. A small comment, but potentially a big deal.
It is my understanding that you two are planning to cooperate to take Ser
from Andy this Fall (this statement should not be breaking any confidences,
since I've said this to each of you privately). Other than the above snafu, I
haven't said anything about it to Andy. If you two were hoping for surprise,
that may not be much consolation. If you want to keep the surprise, it would
be sufficient for either of you to respond (if he asks) by saying that I have
been led to believe that Philippe thinks Jason is helping him with Ser,
whereas Jason has told me he's not going to.
Again, my apologies for the screw up, and I hope that this three way press
doesn't make things worse. Since I'm only reporting on my screw up and
repeating things I've said to both of you, I'm hoping this is more helpful
than hurtful.
Here's hoping you guys don't lynch me for stupidity....
--- Eric
Message from Germany to England
Batter down, lock and load. I am going in.
Message from Austria to Russia
Eric,
Well, to err is human... The problem now is that I'm
pretty sure he will try for Tri in strength. Because of
this, I will now support Adr-Tri from Vie and I need
you to leave it alone.
So, could you please confirm that you will move to
Boh then?
Philippe
Message from France to Russia
>
> Again, let me know what you think.
Not a bad idea, but we also risk puishing EG closer together if we take an
incidental stab at Germany. Hopefully, Germany will think that we're
favoring him this turn and be less likely to try to work with England
against as so soon -- he might be more likely to let England get knocked
down another peg before approaching him with a "let's settle our
differences before RF knock us out" proposal.
On the other hand, the sooner the deader, the better. If you go for it, I
will.
I'll head for Iri.
Erik
Message from France to Germany and Russia
Okay, Tony, I think we're on board for your plan. I will head for Iri and
Russia should be supporting you into Den. I'll keep Holland for now but
won't think anything ill of you if you reclaim it later.
Erik
Message from Germany to France and Russia
Good to hear. I will order hel - nth and kie - den as mentioned and spoken
of with russia.
I lose HOL or DEN or maybe both. At least this way I only lose one and gain
allies.
I just hope the pair of you leave MUN alone.
I will have ber and mun and ruh support each other. Other than that there is
not much I can do.
I did say kie - den supported by hel and hopefully bal but if RFG is
happening then hel - nth would be better for russia.
I will submit the change of orders with this press. Good luck to us all and
death to my nemisis.
Message from Germany to Germany
Well, what do you make of that. If there is anyone there then you guys have
the big picture.
I believe FR will stick it to me and engalnd this round. I have placed my
bet and its on BEn coming through.
I am sure FR have made a deal over MUN and or BER. If all goes according to
plan I should have kie, ber, mun ,hol.
I think my fake error message to Ben may have swung it. I am lost without
BEN anyway as EFR can easily finish me off. I havent played well this game
so I deserve a kick in my complacency. As long as DEN or BAL dont go for KIE
I may be ok for another few rounds. Sorry about grammar and spelling but
english isnt my strongest language. Its also close to bed time and I have 14
games to check and one to gm ;-)
I wouldnt be surprised to see GAL push for BOH. Russia may believe he will
get a build and decide to put the pressure on me even further. Let it be
noted that Russia's offer was never taken seriously. Why help me when he
doesnt have to. He can just have me believe he will help me. He would be
better off getting France to attack MUN and England to attack Denmark and
grabbing Berlin for himself. Thats what I would have done.
I also still believe Turkey will go for GRE and that the juggernaut will
evolve.
Message from Germany to Germany
>>He would be
better off getting France to attack MUN and England to attack Denmark and
grabbing Berlin for himself. Thats what I would have done.>>
Should have read, England to attack KIE.
Message from Turkey to Austria and Russia
No problem on the errant message. We'll stick to the plan.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
I agree AT is more favorable, but right now there's not much A. I think
I'll stick to the Ser/Gre plan for now, get my two builds, and worry
about Russia later. It's my only real way to expand for the moment.
jason
Message from Austria to Russia and Turkey
> No problem on the errant message. We'll stick to the plan.
Yeah, there's nothing Andy can do against my support in Ser.
Philippe
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
If you are not vacating Vie, there's no reason for me to tap it. Boh it is.
Sorry for the delayed response -- I was away at my Monday night class.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
Well, that mis-sent press screwed up my whole plan. I was counting on the
build from Vie to give me the buffer to take on Tony or Ben, wherever I
needed to be. Not getting that build really screws up that planning. (Of
course, there's no guarantee I was going to get it anyway, but I was
willing to gamble).
I still have to decide who to disappoint, but it's going to be a much
uglier game from here on out than what I was hoping for. Oh well, I'm sure
I was being too optimistic before anyway.
--- Eric
Austria: Fleet Adriatic Sea → Trieste
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Turkish Army Bulgaria → Serbia
Austria: Army Vienna SUPPORT Fleet Adriatic Sea → Trieste
England: Fleet Denmark → Kiel
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet Skagerrak → Denmark
England: Fleet Skagerrak → Denmark
France: Army Belgium SUPPORT Army Holland (*cut*)
France: Army Burgundy SUPPORT Army Belgium
France: Army Holland SUPPORT Army Belgium (*cut*)
France: Fleet Marseilles → Spain (south coast)
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Irish Sea
France: Army Paris → Gascony
Germany: Army Berlin → Silesia (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Helgoland Bight → Holland (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Kiel SUPPORT Fleet Helgoland Bight → Holland (*cut, destroyed*)
Germany: Army Munich → Silesia (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Ruhr → Belgium (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Rome → Venice
Italy: Army Serbia SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece (*cut, dislodged*)
Italy: Fleet Tunis → Ionian Sea (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Venice → Tyrolia
Russia: Fleet Baltic Sea SUPPORT English Fleet Denmark → Kiel
Russia: Army Galicia → Bohemia
Russia: Army Norway → Sweden
Russia: Fleet Rumania HOLD
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Fleet Rumania
Russia: Army Silesia → Berlin (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Ukraine → Galicia
Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea → Greece (*bounce*)
Turkey: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Constantinople → Bulgaria
Turkey: Army Bulgaria → Serbia
Turkey: Army Constantinople → Bulgaria
|