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Message from Italy to France
>
> Thanks for the support to Spain. It was not what I
> wanted, but good manners requires that I at least thank
> you for it. :-)
>
You are welcome. :)
While it may not have been what you wanted, the results of this past spring
could have been drastically worse for you. If I were you, I'd be throwing a
party right about now.
> I suppose that you would not consider support for
> a move to MAO this season?
Actually, I would consider supporting Spain to the MAO. Then next spring, I
can retreat from the West Med and we can return to our original treaty. (I
doubt England would retreat to NAF now and even if he did, I won't have the
Austrian fleet at my back to worry about).
> Would you consider attacking it just to
> break support if I felt that was useful? I have yet to
> look at a map, so I do not yet have a plan.
>
I would consider attacking but that would be a very last resort. If you
just wanted to attack to break support and not actually dislodge the unit,
then Portugal seems like the logical candidate for that job.
> If I asked you to support me to Munich you would probably
> choke and cough, right? :-) It would be nice to have
> some sucess .... :-)
>
Support to Munich? Hmmm. I'd have to think about that but you're probably
right, I'd cough. As an outsider, I see tension between EG mounting and I
have no real reason to stop that tension. Supporting you to Munich might
just rekindle the EG alliance and that's not what either of us wants.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
Yes, I must admit that I am happy about the way things
turned out. If Germany had moved to Paris, I would be
toast. With those moves, Bre->MAO would have been
better. But with the moves that we made, it was a wash.
I know that you are happier with this choice, hence it
was the best one.
For me to take the MAO, I will indeed need your help. I
realize that you prefer my taking it from Spa, as that
gets me out of the Med. It would of course make me more
comfortable taking it from Por. I do appreciate your
comments about withdrawing. But things have not turned
around just yet. Germany and England are not at war,
just not working together effectively. They could still
put it back together.
I think that you and I need to work together to push them
into that War. It would profit both of us. I could join
one side and have some security and a little growth. You
could have the freedom to deal with Turkey. He will
eventually run out of room to grow North and there you
will be. Do you have a preference, perhaps an FGI
alliance would be effective. That presumes that I could
arrange such an alliance with Germany.
I guess we have some time to ponder and I need not rush
things. This time I believe that the deadline is Monday
night at 11:30 PM Eastern. I hope that I have my
troubles straightened out. I was hoping to talk with you
more last deadline, that is why I was so shocked at the
deadline. But since I was late, I could not negotiate
and just had to turn in orders after I read Doug's
message.
-- Prince Boar
Message from Germany to Italy
> Tyrolia will be exiting post-haste (and not to Munich as
> Russia has suggested).
That's good news. Hopefully not to BOH either.
Can I also count on you NOT supporting France to MUN this turn?
I'm assuming that you guys will eliminate Austria this turn.
Fredd
Message from Germany to Italy
> I know why England moved to the North Sea. No explanation necessary.
What did he tell you? He told me that he needed to protect BEL.
Unfortunately, it makes a nice jumping off point to attack DEN or HOL
also.
Fredd
Message from Italy to Germany
>
> That's good news. Hopefully not to BOH either.
>
Nope. Either Piemont or Vienna or, I suppose, Venice. Do you have a
preference?
> Can I also count on you NOT supporting France to MUN this turn?
Asked and rejected already.
> I'm assuming that you guys will eliminate Austria this turn.
>
That's the hope. Neither Turkey or myself want to give the other guy the
extra build but I'm sure we'll work something out.
Roberto
Message from Italy to Germany
>
> > I know why England moved to the North Sea. No explanation
> necessary.
>
> What did he tell you? He told me that he needed to protect BEL.
> Unfortunately, it makes a nice jumping off point to attack DEN or HOL
> also.
>
There was a possibility that Russia would actually get a build last fall and
that he needed to defend Norway in case of a new unit in STP.
He actually said he needed to defend Belgium? That sounds like a real
bonehead thing to say to an ally.
Roberto
Message from Master to all
Extension due to player absence, for one additional day.
Doug
Message from Germany to Italy
> There was a possibility that Russia would actually get a build
> last fall and that he needed to defend Norway in case of a new
> unit in STP.
Actually Ivy used this excuse also. Mainly because I was pointing out
the danger from Russia. I was never really worried about that though,
as my prime objective was to make sure that Russia didn't put an army in
STP. One of my successes.
Piedmont would be an interesting place to go. But I don't know if you'd
support France or attack him.
It's getting close to the time that you have to look seriously at being
in a war with Turkey again. (I think) With Austris gone and Russia
getting very weak, Turkey's avenues of expansion are limited to coming
at me or you. You'll be a lot closer. Although it's possible that he
swing around you and your centers in Austria, it's highly unlikely.
Therefore I think that you and I will be battling to contain Turkey
in the not too distant future. We both know how difficult it is to
return the genie to the bottle once he's out.
Perhaps it's time to also talk about what else we would like to
happen in the West at the same time. Keep this to yourself, but what
about a stab of England, draw France North, followed by a stab of France
from the south? You're the stab king so far, care to go for three?
(You wouldn't actually be stabbing England)
Fredd
Message from Russia to Italy
Roberto, My Friend,
Well, that was interesting... 8-) Would you like
me to lobby Prince Boar to support WMed-MAO? It would
make him feel safer, (maybe), and give you access to
the Atlantic, so it strikes me as a good thing for both
of you. Do you plan to take Bud for yourself, or
support Ali in? Either way, I hope you will tell him
that you will, so that he'll move Sev-Rum, to let me
take Sev. Please let me know what you're thinking.
Nick.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I seek your professional opinion. I am trying to decide where to attack
the MAO from. I know that you desire my attack from Spain, and that
would begin the process of stablizing our region. My quandy is that I
fear that England and Germany are still allied. If they do retake
Burgundy, it would be stronger to have my fleet in Spain rather than
Portugal. I would have the flexibility of acting on Marseilles from
Spain with the fleet or Gascony with the retreating army.
Since your support for my move to MAO is important, I want to know what
you think about the choice.
So how are things going in the east. I imagine that Turkey wants
Budapest. He is probably reminding you of his support for Tieste last
fall. Are you planning on allowing him Budapest? I am sure that you
are tempted by two builds. But that also makes you a target, being so
much larger than your neighbors. Choose carefully.
-- Prince Boar
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>Uh-oh! Did you lose your German friend? Looks from here like he expected
>you to stab him.
What a fine kettle of fish we have here, Ollie!
Germany was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He told me in advance
that he would have to defend against a possible stab, even though he
believed that I was not going to stab. He insisted that we would continue
to attack France once he was confident he was secure. He really wanted to
have it both ways: retain my trust in him, while preparing for a possible
stab himself. I was not able to persuade him to continue the assault on
France without making those "defensive" moves. I ha hoped for something
better, but it was not to be.
If this were a no press game, I would expect Germany to switch sides now
and join forces with France. I am not sure what he will actually do under
the influence of diplomacy from all around the world.
Certainly, I do not like my position very much right now, and if I were you
I wouldn't like the Italian position much either. You were soon going to
be able to pick up Spain and Marseilles. Now, if Germany switches sides,
that looks more distant, and Turkey looms larger every moment.
So here is what I want you to do. Think very hard about what is best for
Italy and I will do my best to cooperate. I am assuming that the choices
are between (1) trying to persuade Germany to participate in a 3-way attack
on France. That still could proceed fairly quickly if Germany were with
us. Or (2) get France to join us in attacking Germany. What makes me most
nervous in all of this is that Turkey is not going to be idle. I guess
there is a third possibility. You may end up, willingly or otherwise, in
a war with Turkey. In that case I could be caught between France and
Germany. That's the way it goes sometimes.
This is my first note after getting back. Think hard about your situation
and get back to me as soon as possible.
Cordially,
Ivy
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I have ordered Spa to MAO as my default orders. I can
change them if our discussion warrants it. But for now,
I think this choice reasonable.
--Prince Boar
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
Well, the deadline is tomorrow. What are your thoughts? Let's get a plan
together.
Ali
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> Well, the deadline is tomorrow. What are your thoughts?
> Let's get a plan together.
>
I came to work today planning on hammering out a plan but found the judge
unresponsive. At home now without time to adequately write what I need to.
I've asked Doug for a Wednesday deadline so we hopefully won't be pressured
tomorrow but I'll get something out to you first thing tomorrow morning.
Roberto
Message from Germany to Italy
Roberto:
I have a question for you. I'm a little too close to the action.
I think that I can't see the forest through the trees.
If you were me, who would you ally with, France or England? I'm
only thinking in a strategic sense. Discount personalities.
Fredd
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I guess that the Judge is working again. Have you had a
chance to think over my question for you? (Which, Spa or
Por, is better to take MAO?) In a subsequent letter I
said that I have already ordered Spa to MAO. I
appreciate that you agreed to support it, I hope that you
still are. I am counting on it.
Do you think that the Austrian will be eliminated this
turn? It looks like Budapest should fall, to you or
Turkey. Sevastopol should be either Turkish or Russia.
Therefore the Austrian fleet should disappear. Unless of
course Turkey supports Budapest or some mixup happens
near Sevastopol. About the worst thing that could happen
is that Austria could have a surviving center and get his
fleet into the Ionian.
Hmm, I guess there are worst things for you. Turkey
could support Austria to Greece as well. My advice is
that you plan it safe.
You will also notice that I am not requesting support for
a move to Munich. I know that you would not want to do
that. I also am choosing to be cautious.
--Prince Boar
Message from Master to all
Extension to Wednesday evening, due to judge outage.
Doug
Message from Russia to Italy and Turkey
Gentlemen,
Have you come to an agreement regarding Budapest?
Splitting the Austrian Centers seems like the way to go,
but I'd like to confirm that everyone is on the same
page here.
Sincerely,
Nick.
Message from Italy to Turkey
> Let's get a plan together.
>
Well, doesn't look like we're going to get that deadline extension I had
hoped for but we still have plenty of time. Luckily, the position this fall
doesn't have too many options.
I've been thinking about your question of should we let Russia have SEV and
thus keeping our growth on an even platform vs one of us get a 2-for-1 deal.
Honestly, I don't really have an answer. One on hand, I don't see the
reason in delaying the inevitable (that of you taking SEV from Russia down
the road anyway). On the other hand, Germany's pull back from France has
not made Ivy very happy and thus a Russian presence against Germany might
keep the West unsettled for a longer period of time.
I guess what I need to know from you is, how do you forsee the division of
spoils now that the Austrian demise is imminent. Where will our next areas
of growth come from - for the both of us. Your growth potential seems
rather obvious as SEV, WAR, MOS all seem to be reachable goals. If the EG
alliance has indeed hit a snag, centers from Iberia will not be so easy to
come by for me.
All three of EFG have suggested to me that war between IT seems inevitable.
As long as they think that way, I'd like to prove them wrong. I'm just not
quite sure how to go about that just yet.
France has told me his default move is SPA-MAO and has asked for my fleet to
support that move. I consider this good for Italy in that it gets as many
fleets as possible furthest away from my home.
England is still trying to persuade an EGI attack on France.
Germany is asking me who he should ally with (from a purely tactical
standpoint). I think the answer is France since France is the lesser threat
right now.
Having taken all of this in, I suspect our best move is to play it safe and
allow Russia back into SEV (I doubt he'll get a build as Germany HAS to take
STP right?). This option should leave us with more flexibility next year.
Thus, I guess I'm suggesting:
tri s ser - bud
bla s sev - rum
wes s spa/sc - mao
con - smy
ank - smy
ion - tun
gre - aeg (so that you will remain in CON/ARM in case of unwanted AEG
support - of course, I can forgo this order if you don't care)
That leaves me with a unit unaccounted for, namely TYR. Any suggestions?
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Sorry for the delay in response. I hate sending press when the judge is
down though. I never now if it will arrive or be sent to byte-heaven.
Message from Italy to Germany
> If you were me, who would you ally with, France or England? I'm
> only thinking in a strategic sense. Discount personalities.
>
Very tough question. From a purely tactical sense, probably England. Ivy
can pull back from France and defend against a German attack if he wants -
France doesn't have the luxury of being able to defend against an EG attack.
Allying with France, you could find yourself fighting multiple fronts.
Were Russia eliminated and IT in war, the answer would probably be
different.
Hope
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> Well, that was interesting... 8-) Would you like
> me to lobby Prince Boar to support WMed-MAO? It would
> make him feel safer, (maybe), and give you access to
> the Atlantic, so it strikes me as a good thing for both
> of you.
>
I appreciate this but it won't be necessary. I'm not quite ready yet to
move into the MAO. France and I have come to an agreement regarding the
MAO. It's not a perfect agreement but it's something the both of us can
live with.
> Do you plan to take Bud for yourself, or
> support Ali in? Either way, I hope you will tell him
> that you will, so that he'll move Sev-Rum, to let me
> take Sev. Please let me know what you're thinking.
>
Unless you feel strongly otherwise, I will be supporting Ali to Budapest and
using diplomatic means to get him to return SEV to its rightful owner.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
>
> I have ordered Spa to MAO as my default orders. I can
> change them if our discussion warrants it. But for now,
> I think this choice reasonable.
>
I thank you in advance for this. It will be the first step in returning to
our original agreement. If I'm not mistaken, the two of us may well have
the longest peace between nations so far. I'd like to see that continue. I
honestly think the German moves this spring have created tension between EG
and peace between them is quite fragile.
>From Italy's perspective, with the Austrian demise imminent, I will be
looking at increased tension with Turkey. I would feel more comfortable in
remaining east if I have as little a threat of fleets entering the Western
Med as possible. Your move of SPA-MAO is the best possible outcome to
achieve that goal. Most of my units are east. I see no reason not to
continue moving in that direction.
I currently have six units, including Vienna, with a chance at 7 if I want
it. It is important to me that we achieve some sort of balance so that one
does not feel threatened by the other in anyway. However, I don't think
Munich is the answer at this point. In order for you to be successful
against England, you will need German assistance; in order for me to be
successful against Turkey, I will need German assistance. I don't think
either of us should make a play for Munich this fall to show Germany that we
are serious in seeking his aide in other parts of Europe.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
I obviously can't count very well. :(
Guess I never really thought I'd ever make to 6 centers let alone 7 with a
shot at 8 if I were greedy. My apologies for my bad math.
Roberto
Message [from Russia] to all
"Testing, testing, 1, 2, 3... " (*THONK*) (The sound of a microphone being
tapped.) "I know you're out there, I can hear you breathing..."
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
It sure is difficult comunicating when the judge is up
and down. One never knows when messages were sent versus
others read. Sorry, but this note will be in a rush.
I appreciate your message explaining your position. I am
glad to hear that the neutrality and peace with France is
as important to you as it is to France.
We note that your message agreed with one of my earlier
assumptions that you prefer peace with Germany and hope
that if I am able to find an ally in the North it is
Germany and not England. I made that guess because it
made sense for you. It would help a lot if you sent a
note to Germany urging him to side with me. It would not
hurt for you to imply that if he does, that allows you
some freedom to deal with Turkey, which can only help
him.
I believe from your message that you do prefer that I
take MAO from Spain. You did not comment on my concern
about Germany and England combining to take Burgundy.
But I can deal with that if it happens. Just to confirm,
I am leaving my order of Spa -> MAO. You did not confirm
that you are supporting it. I ask and hope that you will
!
-- Prince Boar
Message from Master to all
Extending the deadline one more day, now that USIN seems to be back
with us for good.
Doug
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
You sure know how to make a guy nervous.
No one on this planet wants to help you more than I do right now. You want
to attack Germany? Fine, count me in. You still want to attack
France? Fine, count me in. In both cases, we need a little time to say
the right things to France and Germany.
You want to pull out of the west altogether? Then it is to your advantage
to let me know, for in that case I may be trapped between France and
Germany by myself and you will want me to survive as long as possible.
Now, about your problem with Turkey. He told me that he is considering
letting Russia have Sevastopol, provided you give him Budapest. He said
that if you don't give him Budapest, then he may still give Sevastopol to
Russia. He wants my advice. Clearly he has to decide between attacking
you or Russia next.
Back to your western choice. You might consider working with France to
take Munich, although France may still be disappointed with you lack of
support in MAO last turn. Germany cannot save both Holland and Munich.
A totally different possibility is Wes s MAO->spa(nc) with Tyr->Pie,
Ion->Tys. This is your best shot at getting French centers next
year. These moves could be combined with helping Turkey into Budapest to
keep him happy and insure that the Austrian fleet vanishes.
Lot's of choices & I want to help.
Ivy
Message from Russia to France and Italy
Gentlemen,
Have you considered a supported attack on Munich?
Tyl S Bur-Mun, WMed & Spa/SC S Por-MAO, Bre S Par-Pic
would work quite nicely, I think.
Your Friend,
Nick.
Message from Russia to Italy
Message from Italy to Russia in 'titleist':
>
>I'm not quite ready yet to move into the MAO
Okay.
>Unless you feel strongly otherwise, I will be supporting Ali to Budapest
>and using diplomatic means to get him to return SEV to its rightful owner.
This works for me.
Nicky.
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
> I've been thinking about your question of should we let Russia have SEV and
> thus keeping our growth on an even platform vs one of us get a 2-for-1 deal.
> Honestly, I don't really have an answer. One on hand, I don't see the
> reason in delaying the inevitable (that of you taking SEV from Russia down
> the road anyway). On the other hand, Germany's pull back from France has
> not made Ivy very happy and thus a Russian presence against Germany might
> keep the West unsettled for a longer period of time.
That is my sense as well. If EG conflict breaks out, then having Russia
around to work against Germany could be in our best interests. If Russia
keeps his fleet alive, that will give Germany a more difficult time getting
his fleets out. Russia has also speculated about disbanding the fleet and
building a third army, which (if used against Germany) would also do much to
affect the E/G balance of power.
> I guess what I need to know from you is, how do you forsee the division of
> spoils now that the Austrian demise is imminent. Where will our next areas
> of growth come from - for the both of us. Your growth potential seems
> rather obvious as SEV, WAR, MOS all seem to be reachable goals. If the EG
> alliance has indeed hit a snag, centers from Iberia will not be so easy to
> come by for me.
I actually expect the opposite: EG conflict will make Ivy desperate for an
Italian ally, and the reduction of the threat against France increases your
options to attack France rather than help him. I would think that France's
chances would be even worse against EI cooperation than EG, if England is kept
viable.
As for our next areas of growth, I agree my obvious targets are Sev, Mos and
War. Your obvious targets are Mar and Spa. FG alliance changes things in
France, and that might make it more difficult for you to gain there, though
unless England dies quickly, the odds are still in your favor. I might have
an easier time against Russia, but not if I hope to use him as a janissary
against Germany.
In the final analysis, I'm not opposed to trading centers in Austria in order
to keep the IT balance. For instance, if you were to get stalled in France
while I hit Russia, I would agree to turn Bud over to you. Given what I
perceive to be a rather unpredictable game, my first desire is to see
stability in the south, which means keeping IT forces on par with each other.
To me that includes not letting Turkey outpace Italy, just as much as not
letting Italy outpace Turkey.
> All three of EFG have suggested to me that war between IT seems inevitable.
> As long as they think that way, I'd like to prove them wrong. I'm just not
> quite sure how to go about that just yet.
I'm sure each of EFG have reasons to want you thinking along those lines, and
I wouldn't be surprised if each of their predictions had some angle in it that
favored them.
In any case, the question is what happens long-term. Clearly, a land-based
Turkey isn't a solo proposition. Even if I gained all of Balkans, Russia,
Austria and Germany (which would be all but impossible), that's only 17
centers. So on the assumption I'm going for a solo (a safe assumption to make
in this game), then they're right.
On the other hand, a strong land-based Turkey would be very tough to kill, and
would be in place to have some influence over the balance of power in the end
game. So far, my only concern has been to survive and be viable going into
the mid-game, and that continues to be the approach I'm taking. This game has
been one of shifting alliances so far, and I expect that to continue. So, I'm
taking rather more of a short-term approach than usual, with the emphasis on
stability and flexibility.
In any case, I sincerely share your desire to prove them wrong!
> France has told me his default move is SPA-MAO and has asked for my fleet to
> support that move. I consider this good for Italy in that it gets as many
> fleets as possible furthest away from my home.
Agreed. I might suggest supporting England to Spain, but supporting him to
Spa/sc would not be prudent.
> England is still trying to persuade an EGI attack on France.
At this point, I would encourage you to cooperate with England against France
as soon as possible, though probably not in this turn.
> Germany is asking me who he should ally with (from a purely tactical
> standpoint). I think the answer is France since France is the lesser threat
> right now.
He asked me the very same thing, and I come up with the same answer. I think
it very likely that EG conflict is about to break out, and we surely should be
prepared for it.
> Having taken all of this in, I suspect our best move is to play it safe and
> allow Russia back into SEV (I doubt he'll get a build as Germany HAS to take
> STP right?). This option should leave us with more flexibility next year.
Those are my thoughts as well, and I'm glad you agree. There's still a chance
Russia could disband & rebuild an army, but that could be useful too.
Although, in the long run it makes taking Mos/War more difficult.
> Thus, I guess I'm suggesting:
>
> tri s ser - bud
> bla s sev - rum
> wes s spa/sc - mao
> con - smy
> ank - smy
> ion - tun
> gre - aeg (so that you will remain in CON/ARM in case of unwanted AEG
> support - of course, I can forgo this order if you don't care)
I would prefer you held in Greece; I'm not that concerned about unwanted
support, and the fleet will be gone after this turn anyway.
I noticed your suggestion of Tri S Ser-Bud, but you didn't say what you plan
with Vie. Did you not like Vie S Ser-Bud, with Bul/Tri bouncing in Ser? I
kind of like that as a way of demilitarizing the Balkans, and perhaps our
bounce may have others guessing.
> That leaves me with a unit unaccounted for, namely TYR. Any suggestions?
My suggestion would be Piedmont, in preparation for an attack on France. An
alternative would be to attack Munich, though I doubt Germany will leave it
open, and it would be difficult to keep even if you got it.
Anyway, it all sort of boils down to what we think will happen in the west.
If we expect to see FG vs. E, then I think it would be wisest in the long term
to prop up Russia, and therefore England, giving you better opportunities in
France. In that case, then the move is Ser-Bud, Sev-Rum.
The alternative is to go for the gusto now, which would mean you take Vie and
Bud, I stay in Sev, and try for War/Mos ASAP. The risk here is that it
strongly favors Germany, which in turn weakens England, which in turn
strengthens France. This seems more of a short-term approach to me, and my
gut tells me it may be somewhat short-sighted. but I'm not ruling it out if
you can think of a reason this would be a better way to go.
> Sorry for the delay in response. I hate sending press when the judge is
> down though. I never now if it will arrive or be sent to byte-heaven.
Same here. Hopefully the judge is now back up and running, and this will get
through. I'm entering my orders of Ser-Bud, Bul-Ser, Con/Arm-Smy, Bla S
Sev-Rum, just so I have something in. Let me know what you think of the
above.
Regards,
Ali
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
Ah, the judge seems to be up. I have a few more alternatives, just for the
sake of argument.
Alternative one is for you to make a stronger anti-French move this turn, with
Ion-WMS, WMS-GOL, Tyr-Pie. It doesn't get France's F Spa out of the way
(though he might accomplish that himself), but it does give you a strong
anti-French position.
Alternative two is that I could try a death-stab on Russia now, with Sev-Mos,
Bla S Arm-Sev, Con-Smy, Bul-Con, Ser-Bul (perhaps Ser/Gre-Bul for the bounce).
The drawback is that my attack could bounce if Russia tries to cover Mos,
though I think holding in War makes more sense. Also, there's a good chance
that all but one of my home centers would be covered, and I'd have an unusable
build if I did gain two.
I'm not trying to make things more complicated than they already are, but I
thought I should at least mention them.
Ali
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> So far, my only concern has been to survive and be
> viable going into the mid-game,
Mine too and it's my belief that a stong fleet-based Italy can alter the
balance of power at either end of the stalemate line in the end-game.
Here's hoping I make it that far.
>
> Agreed. I might suggest supporting England to Spain, but
> supporting him to Spa/sc would not be prudent.
>
England has mentioned Spa/nc but I haven't replied back yet. I doubt I'd
agree to that though. I'd like to see France push a little farther north
before hitting him hard.
>
> At this point, I would encourage you to cooperate with
> England against France as soon as possible, though probably
> not in this turn.
>
I've always told England that I'm willing to help him against France once
the Austrian fleet has been neutralized. That done, I'm prepared to
negotiate with England immediately on a more active level.
>
> I would prefer you held in Greece; I'm not that concerned
> about unwanted support,
Okay, just thought I'd throw out the idea.
>
> I noticed your suggestion of Tri S Ser-Bud, but you didn't
> say what you plan
> with Vie. Did you not like Vie S Ser-Bud, with Bul/Tri
> bouncing in Ser? I
> kind of like that as a way of demilitarizing the Balkans, and
> perhaps our
> bounce may have others guessing.
>
I missed that suggestion in all of the messages and down time. Yes, Vie S
Ser-Bud and Tri-Ser is better.
> > That leaves me with a unit unaccounted for, namely TYR.
> Any suggestions?
>
> My suggestion would be Piedmont, in preparation for an attack
> on France. An alternative would be to attack Munich, though
> I doubt Germany will leave it open, and it would be difficult
> to keep even if you got it.
>
I'd rather keep Germany focused on EF (and even northern Russia from my
perspective) than me so action in Munich has been eliminated from my plan
this fall.
Regarding Piedmont.....
> Alternative one is for you to make a stronger anti-French
> move this turn, with Ion-WMS, WMS-GOL, Tyr-Pie
Thank you for mentioning this alternative. I have been seriously
considering this alternative. However, I'd really only want to make these
moves if I could build two fleets this winter and be comfortable in knowing
that I can keep France on the MAO side of Iberia. Of course, that means
that I'd need Budapest and Russia wouldn't get SEV etc, etc. The safer,
more cautious approach was being discussed and I didn't want to seem pushy
in asking for Budapest.
If I moved to PIE and GOL, my having an additional unit shouldn't pose
nearly the problem for you since I would have an immediate enemy in France -
something I currently don't have.
Barring that, I'd probably order Tyr-Ven (at the request of Germany) and Ion
s Gre (at the request of France) and see how the west plays out. I'd build
a fleet in Naples and I'd still have plenty of opportunities against either
Germany or France.
> Alternative two is that I could try a death-stab on Russia now,
> with Sev-Mos, Bla S Arm-Sev, Con-Smy, Bul-Con, Ser-Bul (perhaps
> Ser/Gre-Bul for the bounce). The drawback is that my attack
> could bounce if Russia tries to cover Mos, though I think
> holding in War makes more sense. Also, there's a good chance
> that all but one of my home centers would be covered, and I'd
> have an unusable build if I did gain two.
Actually, the biggest drawback I see is that Rumania is uncovered against
Bud-Rum or the retreating Budapest. Probably not your best moves.
I did just think of a set of moves that might accomplish everything I want.
Vie s Ser - Bud
Tri - Ser
Tyr - Tri (this is the key)
Germany wants me to evacuate Tyrolia. I'm sure I can pass it off as a
(failed) stab against you (perhaps even including Gre-Bul and Ion-Aeg
orders). If the west sees an IT conflict, they're more likely to relax a
bit and we might just catch them off-guard next year. That includes Russia
as well.
I don't know. Maybe I'm the one making the position more complicated now.
I've entered the more cautious orders mentioned above. We still have
tomorrow to finalize a plan of attack.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
>
> I believe from your message that you do prefer that I
> take MAO from Spain. You did not comment on my concern
> about Germany and England combining to take Burgundy.
Based on my conversations with England and Germany, them combining to
re-take Burgundy is remote.
> Just to confirm,
> I am leaving my order of Spa -> MAO. You did not confirm
> that you are supporting it. I ask and hope that you will
> !
Sorry about that. Consider this note confirmation of my support for Spa/sc
- MAO.
Roberto
Message from Italy to Russia and Turkey
>
> Have you come to an agreement regarding Budapest?
> Splitting the Austrian Centers seems like the way to go,
> but I'd like to confirm that everyone is on the same
> page here.
>
Italy has agreed to support Turkey to Budapest. In exchange, we have kindly
asked that Sevastopol be returned to its original owner.
Roberto
Message from Italy to France
>
> I believe from your message that you do prefer that I
> take MAO from Spain. You did not comment on my concern
> about Germany and England combining to take Burgundy.
Based on my conversations with England and Germany, them combining to
re-take Burgundy is remote.
> Just to confirm,
> I am leaving my order of Spa -> MAO. You did not confirm
> that you are supporting it. I ask and hope that you will
> !
Sorry about that. Consider this note confirmation of my support for Spa/sc
- MAO.
Roberto
Message from Italy to Russia and Turkey
>
> Have you come to an agreement regarding Budapest?
> Splitting the Austrian Centers seems like the way to go,
> but I'd like to confirm that everyone is on the same
> page here.
>
Italy has agreed to support Turkey to Budapest. In exchange, we have kindly
asked that Sevastopol be returned to its original owner.
Roberto
Message from France to Germany, Italy, Russia, and Turkey
Just to let you know that I will be pretty busy today.
The Dauphin has me doing some experiments in the dungeon
on some English prisoners. Therefore I may be slow in
getting back to you. But do not hesitate to write me, I
will write back, just a little delay during the day.
Now, off to my job. I wonder what this long pointed
thing with the three curved blades does?
--Prince Boar
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
First let me confirm my understanding of the main options we're considering.
The first is a more conservative approach, along the lines of the following:
Vie S Ser - Bud
Tri - Ser
Bul - Ser
Bla S Sev - Rum
Con - Smy
Arm - Smy
Gre Hold (or -> Bul)
Ion S Gre (or -> Tun)
Tyr ?
The second is a more aggressive approach, involving Vie S Tri-Bud, Tyr-Pie,
WMS-GOL, Ion-WMS, with me staying in Sevastopol. Thereafter, you attack
France in force while I attack Russia.
It seems that I want you to attack France, and you want me to attack Russia,
and neither of us is wholly comfortable with the other gaining Bud. All very
reasonable it seems to me. The conservative approach would seem to give us
both more flexibility, whereas if we each attack our prospective targets,
we'll each have a better sense of security within our alliance, and probably
beter prospects for gain.
Assuming we take the latter approach, I'd like to re-address the issue of Mos.
Of course, as you pointed out, my original though will not work due to lack of
coverage in Rum. What would you think of Sev-Mos, Bla S Arm-Sev, Ser S
Bul-Rum, Gre/Con-Bul?
The risk, of course, is that Austria might order to Smy. If I gained Moscow,
I'd still build one and could boot him out pretty easily. If I bounce Mos,
then I won't be able to build, but Arm will be still be there to dislodge Smy
next year. I don't know that Aeg-Smy is a likely move, but it would mean at
least some chance that Austria might stay alive until next year.
The reward is that I might gain two, thereby keeping up with you; there are a
couple of ways I could end up building one; and also a chance that I might go
without. If Austria did end in Smy, his fleet would be out of position to
threaten anything else, and so there's still a high probability he'd be
eliminated next year. But the main advantage I see is that if Mos goes, it
would take Russia down to one, which will be a big help even if I must then
expel Austria from Smy.
I keep telling myself that this plan is rash, but something about it keeps
calling to me. I guess if I stay in Sev, my relations with Russia will be
trashed anyway, and so attacking Mos wouldn't make things any worse. But yet
I really want to see Austria gone this year. Playing conservatively is safer,
but taking the risk has a much bigger payoff. A bird in the hand is worth two
in the bush, but he who hesitates is lost, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
Anyway, if we did go the more aggressive route, do you think my Mos attack
would be the way to go, or would you advise just holding in Sev so as to
ensure Austria's elimination?
Looking forward to your reply,
Ali
Message from Turkey to Italy
Arrrgh! I hate these judge outages, they don't make anything easier. I wrote
you this morning, but I still haven't seen a confirmation. My orders are
still in with the "conservative" plan, but I've not ruled out going the other
route if we can talk it through.
Ali
Message from Germany to all
The US Labor Day weekend is upon us. I'm afraid that I'll be out of
touch until Tuesday. (you can talk about me now)
Fredd
Message from Italy to England
Looking back thru my backlog in my inbox, I notice I owe you a message or
two or three. My apologies, but I typically don't like sending press when
the judge is down for various unknown reasons.
Anyway, I know the deadline has passed and this message may not effect the
moves this turn, however, I'm hopeful we might get another extension due to
yesterday's outage.
With the Austrian demise, it would appear I have four choices.
1) attack Germany. I find this the least desirable choice as I really don't
want to anger Germany since he has the ability to aide Turkey in Russia and
the Balkans. I want Turkey and Germany fighting over control of Warsaw and
Moscow.
2) attack Turkey. As you point out, I may end up in a war with Turkey
willingingly or otherwise. If I knew he would turn against me, then a
pre-emptive strike this turn would benefit me greatly.
3) play it cautious and see what unfolds. I have a set of orders available
that just sits and supports, take my build, remain compact, and let the
chips fall where they may. Nothing says I HAVE to be the aggressor at this
point.
4) attack France. I've given this serious consideration. Tyr-Pie, WMS-Gol,
Ion-Tun with a new fleet build looks very strong. France has requested WMS
s Spa/sc-MAO. My question to you is, without my support, would Spain still
succeed in reaching the MAO? And if so, where would your MAO fleet retreat
to?
Which option do you think is best for Italy and why? And which option would
you like, as England, like to see Italy adopt and why?
Lots of questions, but your answers would go a long way in shaping Italian
policy.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
Well it seems the judge is back up. I had hoped we could finalize our fall
plans yesterday. At this point, I'm leaning in favor of you taking Bud if
it means you'll build 2 fleets and attack France, but my orders are still
those of our original plan.
I will change orders to hold in Sev (or attack Russia) if I hear from you to
that effect. I'm nervous about changing things when the judge is being
flaky and the deadline is passed, so I won't change anything until you
confirm.
Please write at your earliest convenience.
Ali
Message from Italy to Turkey
I was just penning a response when I got your latest message.
>
> First let me confirm my understanding of the main options
> we're considering.
>
Those are the two options.
>
> Anyway, if we did go the more aggressive route, do you think
> my Mos attack
> would be the way to go, or would you advise just holding in
> Sev so as to ensure Austria's elimination?
>
If we took this tact, I think the gamble in Moscow would be the correct
move. Holding in SEV will burn the last bridge between you and Russia. The
fewer units he has, the less likely he can retaliate. If you don't move to
Moscow, in all probablity Russia would still have two armies next year.
Nothing insurmountable mind you, but two is a whole lot better than one in
this game.
> At this point, I'm leaning in favor of you taking Bud if
> it means you'll build 2 fleets and attack France, but my
> orders are still those of our original plan.
I'll be honest. I am the one who is late so if you don't want to diplome
with a late player, I fully respect that decision. I'm only diploming now
since I've asked our moderator for an extension due to the judge and am
waiting on his decision. The good news is, there is no pressure that the
moves will adjudicate while we're in the middle of talks. I whole-heartedly
refuse to issue orders while the judge is down though since I cannot read
the confirmation message to make sure I didn't mis-order.
I too am in favor of the more aggressive option. I like how our alliance
has progressed and I see no reason why we wouldn't eventually make these
moves next year anyway. Why delay the inevitable? The downside is, it will
probably reintroduce the EG alliance quicker than otherwise but that may
happen anyway. German moves this spring though will have cost the EG side
an entire year of production. On the other hand, we'd be moving forward
full steam.
I will wait to enter orders until I hear from you. Whatever you decide,
cautious, aggressive, or "you know what, I can't diplome with a late power",
is fine by me.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from England to Italy
>4) attack France. I've given this serious consideration. Tyr-Pie, WMS-Gol,
>Ion-Tun with a new fleet build looks very strong. France has requested WMS
>s Spa/sc-MAO. My question to you is, without my support, would Spain still
>succeed in reaching the MAO? And if so, where would your MAO fleet retreat
>to?
>
>Which option do you think is best for Italy and why? And which option would
>you like, as England, like to see Italy adopt and why?
I would like to see you attack France, but the moves that I have entered
assume otherwise.
If you do tell me that you are going to attack France (with me), then I
will change my moves.
It is so obvious that this is best for me, otherwise I risk get crushed
between France and Germany. If I don't get crushed between France and
Germany, it would only be because France went after you!
I know that Turkey was leaning toward giving you Budapest precisely so that
you could build two fleets and safely go for France. He too has been
frustrated by the inability to communicate. I will also write a joint note.
Ultimately, I would like to eliminate France and then work against Germany.
Ivy
Message from England to Italy and Turkey
Roberto & Ali,
I have now heard from both of you and wish to change my moves to be
consistent with a joint attack on France. If I get word from Italy that he
is attacking France, then I will immediately change my moves. I do not
know if Italy needs any reassurances from Turkey in order to reach this
decision, so I write both of you.
If MAO is dislodged, I will not retreat to North Africa.
Ivy
Message from Italy to England and Turkey
Ivy,
What moves would you like me to order this turn as a joint attack of France?
WMS s MAO-SPA will not succeed although it may prevent France from reaching
the MAO.
Roberto
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>What moves would you like me to order this turn as a joint attack of France?
>WMS s MAO-SPA will not succeed although it may prevent France from reaching
>the MAO.
I am resigned to losing MAO, but if France takes MAO from Spain, doesn't
that open up Spain for you?
Why not MAO->Spa(sc) & Ion->Tys?
If France gets MAO then you get Spain. I would protect MAO as best as
possible from NAO. Then he can't take MAO without using both Por &
Bre. That definately open up Spa for you. once France loses a unit, it is
all downhill for him.
Ivy
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
Ok, I'm changing my orders with this press. Please make your own attack on
Bud. I am also counting on Tyr-Pie, and WMS-GOL (or whatever you and England
work out). Also, I need Gre-Bul, so I can bounce from either Con or Bla.
Ali
Message from Turkey to England and Italy
Gents,
> I have now heard from both of you and wish to change my moves to be
> consistent with a joint attack on France. If I get word from Italy that he
> is attacking France, then I will immediately change my moves. I do not
> know if Italy needs any reassurances from Turkey in order to reach this
> decision, so I write both of you.
Such reassurance is given. I look forward to our mutual success.
Ali
Message from Italy to England and Turkey
>
>
> I am resigned to losing MAO, but if France takes MAO from
> Spain, doesn't that open up Spain for you?
>
Yes.
> Why not MAO->Spa(sc) & Ion->Tys?
>
I assume you meant WMS-spa(sc).
^^^
I'll have to ask Ali. Is is alright if I make this move and risk gaining 3
builds? I can always waive a build.
Roberto
btw, Ion would move to Tunis leaving the TYS open for my new fleet out of
Rome/Naples.
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
Of course, any strongly anti-French moves from you suit our joint
purpose. I just want an indication that you are doing this.
Getting excited,
Ivy
Message from Italy to England
>
> I would protect MAO as best as possible from NAO.
>
Actually, if I am going to move WMS-Spa/sc, would it better if you allowed
France to move into the MAO? Then we can support you back in next spring
after he removes a unit.
Just a thought.
Roberto
Message from England to Italy
> > Why not MAO->Spa(sc) & Ion->Tys?
> >
>
>I assume you meant WMS-spa(sc).
Yes, of course. Back to old habits.
>btw, Ion would move to Tunis leaving the TYS open for my new fleet out of
>Rome/Naples.
But the new fleet could still move to TYS next spring, because TYS would be
moving on to WES or LYO. However, I think Ion->Spa is only an advantage
to you if you do get Spain this turn.
As you see fit though.
Ivy
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>Actually, if I am going to move WMS-Spa/sc, would it better if you allowed
>France to move into the MAO? Then we can support you back in next spring
>after he removes a unit.
Yes, if you know that France is attacking from Spain.
So, when (if?) you give me the word that you are going through with this,
please confirm that you want me to vacate MAO now.
Ivy
Message from England to Italy and Turkey
Must go eat.
I've changed my moves, although I would still like a final confirmation
from Roberto.
Ivy
Message from Italy to England and Turkey
>
> But the new fleet could still move to TYS next spring,
> because TYS would be moving on to WES or LYO.
>
I will take another look.
Ali, do you agree with Ivy's tactical analysis regarding my fleet move to
TUN or TYS?
> if you know that France is attacking from Spain.
I have been asked to order 'WMS s Spa/sc - MAO'. He's been honest with me
to date. I see no advantage to France to ask for this support if he doesn't
intend to use it.
> So, when (if?) you give me the word that you are going
> through with this, please confirm that you want me to
> vacate MAO now.
I will issue Tyr-Pie and WMS-Spa/sc pending no objection from Ali for my
potential 3rd build this year. I have no expectation to keep Spain next
year but would hope to exchange it for Marseilles if possible.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
I must confess I'm not comfortable with your gaining 3 while I risk staying
even. How would you feel about picking up Spa and Vie, while I take Bud and
Sev? That would be much safer for me, since I can self-bounce in Smy, Gre/Bla
self-bounce in Bul, and thereby we guarantee Austria's elimination.
If you agree, please let me know at once so I can change my orders.
Just for the record, regarding late diplomacy. I am normally quite picky
about sticking to the rules. In this case, since my orders are confirmed
without error, I feel I should be allowed to continue sending press after the
deadline. This is especially true due to the judge outages. It would be a
shame to see the game degraded due to technical problems.
Ali
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
> pending no objection from Ali for my
>potential 3rd build this year.
Why not go for 4 and hit Munich? 8-)
[Can you spell s-u-i-c-i-d-e ?]
Ivy
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> I must confess I'm not comfortable with your gaining 3 while
> I risk staying even.
>
Damn! Never should have asked for your permission. :)
> How would you feel about picking up Spa and Vie, while
> I take Bud and Sev?
>
That sounds fair. I'm reasonably sure I will reach Spain this fall. Even
if I don't, I'll still get a build and have reasonable chances next year to
catch up to you. Regardless, I've always considered Budapest Turkish and
haven't really felt completely comfortable taking it.
Just to recap:
Our orders will be:
vie s ser - bud
gre - bul/sc
tyr - pie
wms - spa/sc
ion - tys (your opinion on this is still asked if you have time)
tri sits and spins (previously we were bouncing in Serbia)
ser - bud
bul - rum
sev s bul - rum
bla - bul/ec
con - smy
arm - smy
I like those moves very much. Austria is eliminated, my Greece province is
clear of foreign units, and we've demilitarized quite nicely.
>
> If you agree, please let me know at once so I can change my orders.
>
Change them orders.
> Just for the record, regarding late diplomacy. I am normally
> quite picky about sticking to the rules.
>
As am I but I feel justified this time. If I had to enter my orders this
morning, the more cautious approach would have been taken and the game could
very well have been decidedly different in the end.
Life is Beautiful,
Roberto
ps: I will enter orders 30 minutes from sending this mail. Hopefull an hour
is enough time for you to change your orders. If you do so earlier, let me
know and I will enter orders immediately.
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
> Our orders will be:
>
> vie s ser - bud
> gre - bul/sc
> tyr - pie
> wms - spa/sc
> ion - tys (your opinion on this is still asked if you have time)
> tri sits and spins (previously we were bouncing in Serbia)
>
> ser - bud
> bul - rum
> sev s bul - rum
> bla - bul/ec
> con - smy
> arm - smy
Yes, absolutely. I am definitely in favor of moving to Tys, as it puts it
that much closer to Iberia. I would also propose Tri-Tyr; that would give us
an excellent offensive line, and maintains Italian influence in the center.
My orders are in as listed above.
Ali
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
> ser - bud
> bul - rum
> sev s bul - rum
> bla - bul/ec
> con - smy
> arm - smy
> ps: I will enter orders 30 minutes from sending this mail. Hopefull an hour
> is enough time for you to change your orders. If you do so earlier, let me
> know and I will enter orders immediately.
My orders are confirmed.
Ali
Message from England to Italy and Turkey
MAO->IRI has been entered.
Ivy
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
Duh, why don't I think of these things? Of course, Tri must hold, since Bud
will be dislodged.
Ali
Message from Italy to Turkey
Orders are in! Half hour to results.
I ordered:
vie s tri
tri s ser - bud
Roberto
Message from Master to all
Not sure if any of these emails are getting through . . .
I'm have extreme email difficulty with my usual conduit -- if you've sent
me any email in the last day or so, please send it directly to
dtmasse@us.ibm.com
I'm assuming we can process orders tonight?
Doug
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> dtmasse@us.ibm.com as Master set the deadline
> for game 'titleist' to Fri Aug 31 2001 23:30:00 EST.
>
All my guilt for negotiating after the deadline has be exorcised.
Roberto
Message from Turkey to Italy
Roberto,
> > dtmasse@us.ibm.com as Master set the deadline
> > for game 'titleist' to Fri Aug 31 2001 23:30:00 EST.
Ack! I'm going out of town this evening, and will be gone until Monday
evening. I'll be out of e-mail contact that whole time. So I may not even
see the result until I get back. =/
> All my guilt for negotiating after the deadline has be exorcised.
Heh, indeed. I didn't think it would be an issue, what with the judge
outages.
Looks like all orders are in. Now if I could only get everyone to set no
wait....
Best regards,
Ali
Message from Turkey to all
To whom it may concern:
I have declared a national holiday throughout Turkey. As a result, the
Turkish diplomatic office will be closed as our people celebrate three days of
drunken debauchery, ah, that is to say, prayer and meditation.
Our diplomatic corps will resume their work in three days. Until then, may
Allah smile on you all.
Ali Baba
Austria: Fleet Aegean Sea → Smyrna (*bounce, dislodged*)
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Turkish Army Sevastopol → Rumania (*void, dislodged*)
England: Army Belgium SUPPORT Fleet Picardy (*cut*)
England: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Irish Sea
England: Fleet North Atlantic Ocean HOLD
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Army Belgium
England: Fleet Picardy SUPPORT Army Belgium (*cut, dislodged*)
France: Fleet Brest SUPPORT Army Paris → Picardy
France: Army Burgundy → Belgium (*bounce*)
France: Army Paris → Picardy
France: Fleet Portugal SUPPORT Fleet Spain (south coast) → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
Germany: Fleet Baltic Sea → Denmark
Germany: Fleet Gulf of Bothnia SUPPORT Army Livonia → St Petersburg
Germany: Army Kiel → Holland
Germany: Army Livonia → St Petersburg (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Silesia → Munich
Germany: Army Silesia → Munich
Italy: Fleet Greece SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea → Aegean Sea
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Aegean Sea
Italy: Army Trieste → Serbia
Italy: Army Tyrolia → Trieste
Italy: Army Vienna SUPPORT Turkish Army Serbia → Budapest
Italy: Fleet Western Mediterranean SUPPORT French Fleet Spain (south coast) → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (south coast) → Livonia (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Ukraine → Sevastopol (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Warsaw SUPPORT Fleet St Petersburg (south coast) → Livonia
Turkey: Army Armenia → Smyrna (*bounce*)
Turkey: Fleet Black Sea → Bulgaria (east coast)
Turkey: Army Bulgaria → Rumania
Turkey: Army Constantinople → Smyrna (*bounce*)
Turkey: Army Serbia → Budapest
Turkey: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Bulgaria → Rumania (*cut*)
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