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England: Builds 1 unit
France: Builds 3 units
Italy: Removes 2 units
Russia: Removes 1 unit
Message from Italy to England
>
> I think you will be candid with me as I ask:
>
As always.
> Were your moves intended to help France win?
No. They were intended to keep Italy at 5 centers without disbanding and to
become a key cog in the stalemate line. France at 16 or 17 centers means
nothing to me. For what it's worth, Nick had agreed to take Rumania with
Budapest which would have eliminated the French army in Rumania. Once again
though, he lied and it may end up costing him and you a chance at a draw.
> Were they simply anti-Russia no matter what the consequences?
No, although they were intended to make Russia disband his northern units
thus freeing you from having to worry about his attacks.
> Were you fearful that Russia actually had winning chances?
A little bit. I don't trust Nick as far as I can spit.
I do wish you had been more upfront with me regarding Berlin/Kiel. I'm sure
you will agree that an Italian fleet in the Black Sea is a bit more critical
than a Russian fleet in Sweden in stopping France. Oh well, two more
Italian disbands.
Roberto
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>I do wish you had been more upfront with me regarding Berlin/Kiel.
Ouch. I added Berlin->Kiel at the last minute last night, because I
thought Russia was getting too much out of the move. I never dreamt that
he could actually lose material. I also included Belgium->Ruhr, because I
knew that Belgium was safe, but I was not so sure about Ruhr.
You may have gotten your wish about becoming a key cog in a stalemate line.
Had the French army in Rumania been destroyed, the French danger would not
have been so great, and you probably would have been expendable.
Everything now depends on Nick's attitude.
Ivy/Allen
p.s. "upfront" works both ways, although this may have been one occasion in
which you and I would not have been able to agree on best moves.
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
Thank you for your orders. I went to be expecting you to only order a
portion of them. I did not see your message until a couple of minutes
ago. Sorry for holding in Bulgaria. I was expecting to go backwards
for a while. Now I have the problem of being the threat that everyone
will rally against.
I am thinking about moving out of Con, or will you insist on bouncing in
Ankara?
--King Roger XIII
Message from Italy to France
>
> I am thinking about moving out of Con, or will you insist on
> bouncing in Ankara?
>
Depends. Which direction 'out' of CON are you referring to?
Message from Italy to England
Can I have one favor? Allow Mun-Kie to succeed. You can support Nick to
Munich or take it yourself that is up to you. In Munich, I will eventually
be at the mercy of French/Russian units as to my inclusion in the draw. I'd
much prefer the safety of being behind the lines. While you may decide in
the end to have me removed from the draw, I'd much rather take that chance
than the given of being removed by FR forces. Certainly, the threat of
Russian retaliation against you has been diminished if you do indeed decide
to harbor the fugitive.
Roberto
ps: I thought you knew I wanted to be in Kie/Hol/some far off land.....
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
>Can I have one favor? Allow Mun-Kie to succeed.
Uh, do you mind if I try to save the world first? Can you begin to imagine
what Nick is saying? Sure you can.
>I thought you knew I wanted to be in Kie/Hol/some far off land...
There is nothing in the whole wide world that I would like better than to
get you miles away from Russia. The Russian moves to Norway and Denmark
complicated the fall moves, and getting Munich to Kiel or Holland was not
high on my agenda. Thank goodness we accidentally bounced. Had Russia lost
two units he would have thrown the game then and there. As it is, he is
having a level 10 conniption fit.
Please consider the following. Set aside the personalities for a moment and
just look at tactics. Suppose you retain the fleets plus the army in
Munich. Russia enters Rumania in the spring and you enters the Black Sea.
In the fall Rumania taps Bulgaria and you take Constantinople. It can't be
stoppped. France loses two units on that battle front. Would destroying
Venice and Bohemia make the center too weak? No. Galicia and Budapest can
bounce each other in Vienna in the spring to keep France out, while
bringing up Silesia to Bohemia. Russia should then get Vienna in the fall.
I think these tactics are quite good, but you will tell me if I missed
something. The downside comes when considering the personalities. I tend
to assume that all is lost if either you or Russia deviate from any set of
agreed upon tactics. Really lost, this time.
As for Munich->Kiel, I would be happy to do that anytime it doesn't risk
the loss of Munich or cause Russia additional grief.
Ivy/Allen
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
In my last response, I was concerned almost wholly with stopping France,
and I essentially ignored your request.
What you ask is simple to grant *provided you, I, and Nick can get
together*. Munich->Kiel in the spring can be accompanied by Ruhr supp
Berlin->Munich. From Kiel you can then go to Holland, or Denmark if
Holland is not available. This works smoothly even if Bohemia and Vienna
have been destroyed as I suggested in my last message. This strategy would
have you occupying Ankara, Constantinople, and Holland at year's end.
The big problem, though, is Russia. He doesn't handle these setbacks
particularly well. I am just hoping that his urge to see you eliminated is
weaker than his urge to stop France.
Ivy/Allen
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
I have yet to look at a map, so I am not sure where F Con would go.
Either BlS or Aeg, but I do not know which would make more sense. Would
your answer be different based on those two choices? Perhaps the bounce
is best?
Thanks for your help against Russia. It must be nice to see him
disbanding rather than building 3!
--King Roger XIII
Message from France to all
>Congratulations, Roger, you've talked your way into
>another Solo. *Eric shakes his head...*
I have my doubts that your prediction is correct. I have not studied
the map.
Glancing at the results I noticed that I could have ended the game this
last turn. But even if I had guessed all the moves that were made, I
made two promises that were important to keep.
Can someone explain to me why the bounce in Kiel occurred? I know that
it kept the Russian fleet out, but it seemed quite a risk to the units
in Munich and Berlin, with little benefit?
My adjustments are in. While the debate occurs on the others, I can
focus on some home things. If anyone needs French input let me know. I
would be happen to help you choose adjustments :-)
--King Roger XIII
Message from England to Italy
Roberto,
As of now, Nick's terms are that you must disband the two fleets. I am not
crazy about that. I don't know what you think of it either. He could
change his mind.
I am not going to enter my build until Monday to give him a chance to cool down.
Ivy/Allen
Message from England to France, Italy, and Russia
I will be unavailable most of Sunday. I will be taking part in a Christmas
bird count.
Allen/Ivy
Message from Italy to England
>
> As of now, Nick's terms are that you must disband the two fleets.
>
Has he explained his rationale?
I could be convinced if you would agree to the following:
mun-kie
ber s boh - mun
and
Nick agrees to remove the fleet in Sweden.
I would cede Vienna to Russia and, along with adding Rumania, Nick would
gain a build. Ankara would go to whomever got there first (strange as it
may seem, I'm not sure it would be France).
At that point, I would no longer have any eastern forces and it would be all
up to Russia to hold the line.
Roberto
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Gentlemen,
I am tired, having spent a full day in field and forest in stiff, cold
wind, but I think I should send off an e-mail this evening.
Here is where we stand.
I suggested that Italy destroy Vienna and Bohemia, because with the two
fleets it is easy to see how to take Rumania and Constantinople from France
next year.
That suggestion proved unacceptable to Russia, presumably because those
same two fleets could attack Sevastopol. After the last turn there isn't
much trust in either direction down there.
Russia suggested instead that Italy destroy the fleets. Italy said "OK,"
but with a side conditions, namely that I agree to mun->kie & ber s
boh->mun and that Russia agree to destroy the fleet in Sweden. Italy would
then cede Vienna to Russia.
We are making progress, but I hope that these last conditions can be
altered somewhat. First of all, I suggest that Munich->Kiel be followed by
Kiel->Holland. I would lose a unit and would destroy the fleet in Norway.
That fleet is useless for defense against France, and its destruction would
parallel the destruction of the Russian fleet in Finland.
What happens to Vienna in the short term may best be decided on tactical
grounds. Moves that implement the transfer of Vienna may permit France to
advance unimpeded. I would hate to lose Tyrolia just because all our units
were being shuffled in place.
With the above suggestions Russia still grows by a unit with the
acquisition of Rumania.
Comments please.
[Before we all jump for joy at our wonderful cooperation, does anyone know
if, even under ideal circumstances, we can stalemate France in roughly his
current position. It's a technical question. Are there stalemate lines
that run from Sevastopol to Munich that hold France to at most one of
Rumania, Budapest, Vienna? I will try to check.]
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to England and Italy
> Message from England to Russia and Italy in 'titleist':
>
> Russia suggested instead that Italy destroy the fleets. Italy said "OK,"
> but with a side conditions, namely that I agree to mun->kie & ber s
> boh->mun and that Russia agree to destroy the fleet in Sweden. Italy
> would then cede Vienna to Russia.
I was going to suggest that Italy would be best off holding Mun and Ber
or Kie, so this seems reasonable, though I am unclear why Italy would
want me to disband my Fleet.
> We are making progress, but I hope that these last conditions can be
> altered somewhat. First of all, I suggest that Munich->Kiel be followed
by
> Kiel->Holland. I would lose a unit and would destroy the fleet in Norway.
> That fleet is useless for defense against France, and its destruction
would
> parallel the destruction of the Russian fleet in Finland.
I would think that Ken would want to hold adjacent Centers that are needed
to hold the stalemate line against France, so Kie-Hol doesn't make much
sense to me, but if Ken is willing to do it, I have no objection.
> What happens to Vienna in the short term may best be decided on tactical
> grounds. Moves that implement the transfer of Vienna may permit France to
> advance unimpeded. I would hate to lose Tyrolia just because all our
units
> were being shuffled in place.
I'm more concerned about taking Rum and Bul, than I am about Vienna at
this point.
> Are there stalemate lines that run from Sevastopol to Munich that hold
> France to at most one of Rumania, Budapest, Vienna? I will try to check.]
There are eastern lines that hold Rum and Bul, and lines that hold Vie, Bud,
Rum and Bul, but I know of none that split them.
Eric.
Message from Italy to Master
Just to let you know, I have been diagnosed with a substantial partial tear
of the right rotator cuff and have surgery scheduled for Wednesday, January
9th. I will undoubtedly require a deadline extension of unknown length at
that time, assuming of course the game is still in progress.
Ken
Message from England to Italy and Russia
We seem to have sufficient agreement to proceed with builds. Afterwards we
can tinker with the precise moves. I am building a fleet in Liverpool.
Ivy/Allen
Message from Russia to Italy
Ken,
While I'm sure that Allen is sincere in his desire to
stop France, it seems to me that he is also trying to position
us to assure that he will have the largest share of the draw,
and hence the tournament victory. I can't see any reason for
him to suggest that you move to Holland, except that it will
allow him to eliminate you when he feels it is safe to do so.
I also am unclear on why you would want me to disband my Fleet
since it can do you no harm. It does, however provide me with
a defense against an English stab, so I can understand why
Allen wants it disbanded. ;^}
Might I ask what your goal is, at this point? I,
obviously, want to stop the French Solo, and get a share of
the draw. (A Russian solo seems unrealistic at this point,
given that Roger has a better relationship with everyone
than I do.) Given my position, it seems likely that I could
have the most Centers in the draw, and therefore win the
tournament, so it's actually in my best interest to see you
occupy Munich and Berlin or Kiel, since you would act as a
buffer between England and I, and limit his growth. While
some would say that a four-way draw is not a good result, as
a player with a 1500 JDPR, sharing a four-way with two 1700
level players, and an 1800 level player, has to be better
than expected, so I'll take it. 8-) What do you say, shall we work
together to stop Roger, and share in the draw?
Eric.
Message from Master to Italy
usin@thekleimans.com said:
>Just to let you know, I have been diagnosed with a substantial partial
>tear of the right rotator cuff and have surgery scheduled for
>Wednesday, January 9th. I will undoubtedly require a deadline
>extension of unknown length at that time, assuming of course the game
>is still in progress.
Crap -- there goes your baseball career.
Sorry to hear the news -- seems like you've have more than your share
of bad news lately. :-( You'll have whatever extension is necessary
to deal with your recovery. Has the doctor indicated what that might
be?
Doug
Message from Master to all
FYI, a picture of me wearing your gift (the sweatshirt, not the
golf balls) is on display at http://www.furrs.org/diplomacy/masseycon.htm .
Thanks again!
Doug
Message from Italy to Master
> Crap -- there goes your baseball career.
Actually, the idea is to try to salvage whatever is left of my baseball
career. I've played thru the injury for three years and it's time to get it
fixed.
> Has the doctor indicated what that might be?
1 - 6 weeks in a sling depending on the amount of damage he has to repair.
I'm more worried about the pain aspect and the increased amount of time to
do the mundane things in life, like tying my shoes, that will take away from
Diplomacy.
I'll keep you posted. Of course, it could be a moot point depending on how
the next move or two goes.
Ken
Message from Master to Italy
usin@thekleimans.com said:
>Actually, the idea is to try to salvage whatever is left of my
>baseball career. I've played thru the injury for three years and it's
>time to get it fixed.
I was making a joke -- I had no idea that you actually played baseball.
I had a co-worker who tore his ACL running down some stairs and I
kidded him that his NFL career was over (he's 5'3" at 45 years old).
I wasn't trying to rub salt in the wound, obviously. I wish like hell
that I'd ever had to opportunity to play baseball as a kid, but I never
had a chance beyond T-ball.
Well, if you're going to have surgery, have it during the winter, right?
Doug
Message from Italy to Russia
I've been trying to stop the French solo for as long as I can remember.
I've run into resistance at every corner however. I am open to cooperating
but if you tell me you are going to do something you can't blame me if I
'accidentally' end up cutting your support. Like I said previously, I have
no real desire to cooperate to stop a French solo if it means the game ends
in a draw without Italy.
Yes, I imagine Allen still holds hope for winning the tournament but I doubt
it will happen. Where is his growth potential? From you and I and that
just pushes Roger to his solo. He suggested Kie-Hol because your builds are
much more critical in preventing the French solo.
I suggested the Swedish fleet be disbanded because it is of absolutely zero
use in stopping France. At least the Finnish army can be repositioned to
help.
You can keep your fleet if you like; but, the same rules apply for Italian
disbands then.
Roberto
ps: I think the Black Sea fleet has mission critical value.
Message from England to all
>FYI, a picture of me wearing your gift (the sweatshirt, not the
>golf balls) is on display at http://www.furrs.org/diplomacy/masseycon.htm .
That's a nice looking gang you had there, Doug. I haven't played
face-to-face myself in over 15 years, but we have a game lined up at my
house on January 12. Karlis Povisils, who has never played face-to-face is
dropping by! I'm rather nervous about the event.
Allen
Message from Master to all
usin@thekleimans.com said:
>That's a nice looking gang you had there, Doug. I haven't played
>face-to-face myself in over 15 years, but we have a game lined up at
>my house on January 12. Karlis Povisils, who has never played
>face-to-face is dropping by! I'm rather nervous about the event.
First, a fair warning: Karlis is reading these broadcasts
as an observer to this game.
FTF is a strange animal. The killer for me is actually writing my
orders correctly. The first time I played FTF, I misordered in each
of the first four years. How embarassing. As Jim Burgess pointed
out, you get used to the Judge mechanism pointing out mistakes and
it becomes a crutch. Then when you actually have to write out each
move, convoy and support, it's so easy to make a mistake.
Just before handing in orders, I ask myself, out loud: "Are these orders
legal?" I check each one letter for letter, then hand them in. I
catch *so many* mistakes that way.
Secondly, FTF moves so much faster. You barely have time to discuss
tactics -- hell, you barely have time to think about them! I'm so
used to poring over a board and coming up with the perfect moves. In
FTF, I just try to make *legal* moves. :-)
So I think FTF experience is far more important than tactical skill.
Which means you're right to be nervous. :-)
Who else is playing?
Doug
Message from Italy to England and Russia
I think the Black Sea fleet has value. Consider the following:
bla-bul
sev supp ukr-rum
bud supp alb-ser
vie supp bud
The only way for Rumania not to be annihilated is for France to order:
con supp rum-bul
Bulgaria would also have to be ordered to Greece or the Aegean. That bit of
tempo would allow Russia the opportunity to slide SEV-ARM in the fall and
build a fleet if so desired.
If I remove both fleets, that gives France the freedom to order con-bla and
bul-con which would make it very difficult for Russia to order sev-arm in
the fall.
I've ordered both fleets to disband but am curious to hear comments on the
above tactics.
Roberto
Message from France to Italy
Roberto:
(I sent these this morning, but messed up the signon command)
I hope that you will remove the fleet in the Black Sea and keep the
fleet in Armenia. That would us in a nice position of cooperation.
I realize that England (and perhaps Russia) are asking you to make the
ultimate sacrifice. Work with them to deny a French victory, knowing
that the odds are extremely high that this will lead to your
elimination. A tough choice to make I am sure.
Russia has similar troubles. If he will lose, he tells me that he wants
you eliminated first. Does he risk your surviving in a French solo or
does he make sure that you do not? I can't see why it matters so much,
but I am on the outside looking in.
I am resigned to the fact that this game will probably still end up an
ERF draw. I have felt that for a long time; just the road there has had
so many twists and turns in in.
Have a nice New Year;s Eve and be safe.
If you need to ask me anything, I shall be in and out all day.
--King Roger XIII
Message from England to all
Doug asked, "Who else is playing?"
The others are locals. Our mathematics department hired four new Ph.D.s
this past fall. Two of them, and the husband of a third, have played
before. Only Karlis and I have played e-Diplomacy.
Allen
Message from England to Italy and Russia
Roberto (& Nick)
I have no problem with these tactics, or other tactics, as well. There were
good things we could have done if you kept both fleets. There are good
things to be done if you destroy both fleets. What is needed, though, is
a Russian-Italian agreement that sticks.
please?
I think it best -- by far -- that you destroy the fleets, unless you hear
from Nick this evening.
Ivy/Allen
>Message from Italy to England and Russia in 'titleist':
>
>I think the Black Sea fleet has value. Consider the following:
>
>bla-bul
>sev supp ukr-rum
>bud supp alb-ser
>vie supp bud
>
>The only way for Rumania not to be annihilated is for France to order:
>
>con supp rum-bul
>
>Bulgaria would also have to be ordered to Greece or the Aegean. That bit of
>tempo would allow Russia the opportunity to slide SEV-ARM in the fall and
>build a fleet if so desired.
>
>If I remove both fleets, that gives France the freedom to order con-bla and
>bul-con which would make it very difficult for Russia to order sev-arm in
>the fall.
>
>I've ordered both fleets to disband but am curious to hear comments on the
>above tactics.
>
>Roberto
England: BUILD Fleet Liverpool
France: BUILD Fleet Brest
France: BUILD Army Marseilles
France: WAIVE
Italy: REMOVE Fleet Armenia
Italy: REMOVE Fleet Black Sea
Russia: REMOVE Army Silesia
Centers
England: 8
France: 16
Italy: 3
Russia: 7
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