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Russia: Fleet Denmark can retreat to Helgoland Bight
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
I had no idea he was going to do that.
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
Ok Erik....just remember...you reap what you sew.
I told you what the consequenses of moving on me were and you chose to
ignore them.
If you think I am not capable of getting the russian to a solo before you
get me killed.......you are very short-sighted.
Attacking the guy that is holding the stalemate line is the single dumbest
fucking thing you can do in this game.
But I told you ...spelled it out to you even....your loss...this game
should be over REALLY soon.
Message from Italy to England
>
> Andy -
> I had no idea he was going to do that.
You got carboned on my response to him.....most of it is posturing, but he
is so the fucking idiot.
Message from Turkey to England
Good job taking Den, looks like Nwy is next. Hope the Russian fleet
doesn't give you too many troubles from Hel.
It's still touchy down here, but if you, Austria and I can all take
centers from Russia, he'll be seriously hurting.
You might want to consider keeping France on his toes as well. All those
Italian centers are ripe for the taking right now, and a 10-center
France is deadly for both of us.
jason
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> You got carboned on my response to him.....most of it is posturing, but he
> is so the fucking idiot.
:-)
Yeah, I'm not sure how quickly you could really throw the solo, even if you
wanted to - premature, as you know.
The Russian moves are good for me, which should mean, they are good for you
sooner rather than later. Now if I can get him to disband. . .
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
I would appreciate you disbanding the fleet. If you can't come up with a
good reason on your own, let me know, and I'll give you one.
It's not going to help you in the far north and I don't threaten you
anywhere else.
Also, if you disband your fleet, I will root for the Panthers.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Good job taking Den, looks like Nwy is next. Hope the Russian fleet
> doesn't give you too many troubles from Hel.
I'm still hoping he disbands.
> It's still touchy down here, but if you, Austria and I can all take
> centers from Russia, he'll be seriously hurting.
I was surprised to see Austria join in the bear hunt. Good news all around.
> You might want to consider keeping France on his toes as well. All those
> Italian centers are ripe for the taking right now, and a 10-center
> France is deadly for both of us.
Yes, yes. the move against Italy was a surprise to me, too. But the
Italian centers are not so vulnerable as they appear.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> I would appreciate you disbanding the fleet. If you can't come up with a
> good reason on your own, let me know, and I'll give you one.
What follows, though I believe it *is* a good reason, is not nearly so
brilliant as the one I'll come up with later, if this one isn't good
enough. Let me know if you are not persuaded, is all I'm saying.
> It's not going to help you in the far north and I don't threaten you
> anywhere else.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> > You got carboned on my response to him.....most of it is posturing, but he
> > is so the fucking idiot.
> :-)
> Yeah, I'm not sure how quickly you could really throw the solo, even if you
> wanted to - premature, as you know.
He is at 11 now and there are 9 centers on the east side of the stalemate
line, this doesnt include my home centers.
> The Russian moves are good for me, which should mean, they are good for you
> sooner rather than later. Now if I can get him to disband. . .
Cool....lets coordinate.
Andy
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
First off, sorry that I didn't respond to your last message (the "as you wish
one"), though I will admit that your moves seem to be somwhat in contrast to
that statement. I guess it's a good thing I didn't send my "well then, have
fun storming the castle" response, as you stormed it all together too well.
:)
> I would appreciate you disbanding the fleet. If you can't come up with
> a good reason on your own, let me know, and I'll give you one.
I'd like to hear this. From my point of view the fleet is the logical disband
in Winter, but having it hang around to protect Swe makes sense in Fall, as
otherwise you have four units attacking two centers, and I lose all of
Scandinavia at once. I'm perfectly willing to lose it slowly, but I need some
chance to restructure. So holding it seems to make sense to me.
> What follows, though I believe it *is* a good reason, is not nearly so
> brilliant as the one I'll come up with later, if this one isn't good
> enough. Let me know if you are not persuaded, is all I'm saying.
At first I thought you were going to reference the Panthers comment here! :)
> > It's not going to help you in the far north and I don't threaten you
> > anywhere else.
As noted above, it helps in the short term to make sure that there's a
depressurization. I'm not interested in protracted fighting with you, because
I agree that I gave up Scandinavia when I (twice) chose not to build fleets
when I had the opportunity. Moving Mun further shows my willingness to
cooperate -- I can't try to use Mun/Hel to take centers from you.
So I'm not thinking of keeping the fleet from the point of view of working
with Erik against you -- if he's making gains in the south then frankly I
don't want him to also make gains in the north. So let me hear the reasoning
your thinking on why keeping the fleet for a season is a bad idea -- I really
am open to hearing it, it just isn't obvious for me.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> First off, sorry that I didn't respond to your last message (the "as you
wish
> one"), though I will admit that your moves seem to be somwhat in contrast
to
> that statement. I guess it's a good thing I didn't send my "well then,
have
> fun storming the castle" response, as you stormed it all together too
well.
> :)
It's just as well - I'm pretty sure we've done that round of quotes before,
anyway.
I didn't think you would infer I was preparing to attack France this phase
- it was not really possible - I just thought you'd be pleased to see the
army land on HOL rather than DEN or NWY.
> > I would appreciate you disbanding the fleet. If you can't come up with
> > a good reason on your own, let me know, and I'll give you one.
>
> I'd like to hear this. From my point of view the fleet is the logical
disband
> in Winter, but having it hang around to protect Swe makes sense in Fall,
as
> otherwise you have four units attacking two centers, and I lose all of
> Scandinavia at once. I'm perfectly willing to lose it slowly, but I need
some
> chance to restructure. So holding it seems to make sense to me.
Ok, thank you for being patient while I dug around in my brain.
First let me acknowledge the reasons to make the retreat to HEL:
1. a forward retreat, pushing a unit into an advanced position
2. you can always disband it later
You point to both of these, I believe correctly dispensing with #1, and
focussing on #2. The problem with #1 is, if you go to HEL, you are (as you
say) only slowing the depressurization, as you put it. You do not have,
and will not have in the foreseeable future, other forward units in the
region. And that one is already surrounded - it's hardly behind enemy
lines.
So, the real question is, what about #2, what about disbanding it this
coming winter. That would work fine *if* you were assured the opportunity
to make such a disband. But what if your center count breaks even? Easy
enough to imagine - take enough centers to compensate for the one(s) you
are losing. It is not impossible. Hold MUN, slip into TRI & RUM (or
whatever); perhaps turn Turkey and save a dot that way.
The thing is, if you break even, there will be *no* removal for you, but if
you've disbanded F DEN, and break even, you will get to *build* an A WAR,
or A SEV, or whatever, which will keep you from getting rolled up like Joe
Theisman.
Let me throw this into the mix. Disband or not disband F DEN, I will be
pushing for SWE and NWY. If you disband, I will stop short of STP. If you
do not, I will not rest until I have that godless frozen tundra under the
English crown.
Yes, I am offering to pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. But will you
get a better offer from the eels?
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> > The Russian moves are good for me, which should mean, they are good for
you
> > sooner rather than later. Now if I can get him to disband. . .
>
> Cool....lets coordinate.
After the retreat. If he disbands - not likely, but possible - I should
get the builds I need this year.
Ben
Message from England to England
Well, the results were a wonder to behold. Erik finally pushing out toward
Italy, and Austria turning against Russia. If Russia disbands his
retreating F DEN, which in my non-existent fantasy world, he will, I should
be building three while Erik builds none. Andy would not be able to
protest as I crowd the gates of the Med; meanwhile I would be utterly
unopposed in the North. . .
Not likely, but as I said, this is my fantasy world.
Ben
Message from France to England
No, I'm not terribly worried about Andy throwing to the Russian. If I
were, I wouldn't have moved on him so aggressively. Yes, Tunis is a key,
but in reality, so are most of the other Italian centers and a couple of
Scandanavian Russian centers, too.
I am kind of kicking myself for not trying for Munich, but it seemed
unlikely, and I suppose I wouldn't have been able to hold it, anyway.
Erik
Message from France to England and Italy
Andy:
Well, at least I figured out what to do with those fleets.
No hard feelings. Maybe I'm bad at math, but I don't see things the way
you seem to. I'm sure I'll regret it later.
Erik
Message from Russia to England
As I understand your message:
Choice (a) retreat to Hel, and lose Nwy this turn, Swe the next turn, and
StP sometime shortly after that.
Choice (b) disband and lose Nwy and Swe this turn, and hold onto StP
thenceforth.
Gotta say, as much as I want to work with you, I'm thinking that going with
choice A and taking my chances might be the way to go. When I say that I
don't expect to hold onto Scandinavia, I included StP in the expected loss.
I've got the retreat in with wait set. I'll unset wait in the morning
unless there's something you tell me I'm missing.
On another point, my apologies, I do agree that convoying to Holland was
less threatening than you could have been. I was more referring to putting
NAO into Nwg -- frankly, without that I'd be more comfortable disbanding Hel.
As to center count, holding Mun means I still go down two (it's my center
now), assuming I get back control of Rum. So I don't think Hel staying
around is a realistic possibility. I'm hoping that makes it clearly less
threatening to you.
--- Eric
Message from England to France
Erik -
> No, I'm not terribly worried about Andy throwing to the Russian. If I
> were, I wouldn't have moved on him so aggressively. Yes, Tunis is a key,
> but in reality, so are most of the other Italian centers and a couple of
> Scandanavian Russian centers, too.
Well, the Scandinavian centers will not be a problem for much longer. . .
> I am kind of kicking myself for not trying for Munich, but it seemed
> unlikely, and I suppose I wouldn't have been able to hold it, anyway.
Oh, well. I imagine it will be covered in the fall, though you may get
lucky, if you want to try.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> As I understand your message:
>
> Choice (a) retreat to Hel, and lose Nwy this turn, Swe the next turn, and
> StP sometime shortly after that.
Yep. Or something very nearly like that.
> Choice (b) disband and lose Nwy and Swe this turn, and hold onto StP
> thenceforth.
Yep. Perhaps not until the end of time, but for the foreseeable future.
The other difference, of course, is that we will have a *much* better
chance of finding common ground to start working together soon. If you
tell me, I'm going to sit in HEL - so to speak - and force me to deal with
that unit, you will be putting us in more of a warlike, hostile posture.
I would like this conflict to be efficient, so I can get on to other
things. I do not think, by dawdling in HEL, you are making it easy for me
to pull back.
> Gotta say, as much as I want to work with you, I'm thinking that going
with
> choice A and taking my chances might be the way to go. When I say that I
> don't expect to hold onto Scandinavia, I included StP in the expected
loss.
Ah, but you don't have to. And if you have already written off
Scandinavia, then you may want to reconsider alienating one of your few
friends, over centers you have already given up on.
> I've got the retreat in with wait set. I'll unset wait in the morning
> unless there's something you tell me I'm missing.
Look. It's a tough choice. I don't know what I'd do in your position.
But I am recommeding you consider the advantages of disbanding. Consider
it penance for NWY and DEN.
It's a tough choice. Good luck.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Look. This is the thing. I do not want my fleets to be in HEL, BAR, STP,
etc. I want my fleets in NWY, SWE, SKA, as briefly as possible. I think
*you* want the same. By retreating to HEL, you are consigning us both to
the ugly side of that coin.
If you look at the board from my point of view, you will see what I mean.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I hear you, but I think I've gotta do the retreat. As I said, I am a lock to
lose centers. I still want to work together, but I need some time to get a
chance of making up the center loss.
Scandinavia is still yours, and I don't see a way that you would pull back
before Hel gets disbanded anyway, so the argument that you'd be able to pull
back sooner doesn't seem realistic to me.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Well, my sense is you've made up your mind, but for the purpose of playing
out the string of this discussion, let me expand alittle bit:
> I hear you, but I think I've gotta do the retreat. As I said, I am a lock
to
> lose centers. I still want to work together, but I need some time to get a
> chance of making up the center loss.
See below. For the sake of argument, I will concede that you will lose
dots this year.
> Scandinavia is still yours, and I don't see a way that you would pull back
> before Hel gets disbanded anyway, so the argument that you'd be able to
pull
> back sooner doesn't seem realistic to me.
Three possibilities:
1. Disband now. In this case I can be in & out in Scandinavia. I have an
incentive to pull out immediately, because my goal is achieved.
2. Retreat now. Disband in the winter. The compromise you are perhaps
considering most likely. Slows me down and puts me in the position where
it will be more beneficial for me to finish the deal & go for STP. What
the heck - I'd be slow already. . .
3. Retreat now. Don't disband in the winter. Not sure why you would do
this. Let me know if you are thinking about it, when the time comes, and I
will hopefully find a better way to dissuade of *that* then I've found to
dissuade you of *this*.
Anyway, like I said, I think you've decided, & I'm pursuing this discussion
more for the discussion's sake than anything else. Though you should feel
free to surprise me, and disband.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
Fair enough.
I have entered the retreat, and will suffer the consequences, and see whether
or not we can work anything out from there.
As to your point number three (keeping F Hel), it's not likely to happen. It
would only make sense if Erik moved north against you, which for many
reasons: your upcoming builds, his infatuation with Italy, etc. is not likely
in the short term.
--- Eric
Russia: Fleet Denmark → Helgoland Bight
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