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Message from England to Turkey
Greetings Turk. I write you, my most distant neighbor, first - we have Russia in common & of course we are both interested in the plans of all our neighbors in between.
So I hope you and I will correspond often & may it bring us both many dots.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Greetings again. I followed the Pitkisser list for awhile but realized PBEM is probably where I belong - I hope the convention went (is going? don't remember) well & I hope you win all the prizes.
I do not have a lot of experience with England & I hope you will give me some pointers about how you play the blue pieces.
Anyway we have Germany & France to discuss, and I imagine Russia too. So let's get a feel for the players & plan from there.
Ben
p.s. I promise hell or high water not to discuss the draw clock.
Message from England to France
Erik -
I'm glad to see you wanted to give comments another shot & I hope the real life concerns that interfered with parts of your game last time spare you this time.
My thinking is right now get a lay of the land, diplomatically speaking, & see where we are. Meet Germany, meet Russia, etc. Of course I do not think we have to be introduced to Italy. :-O
After we've heard from one or two of our neighbors I'd like to start making some long term plans with you. E/F is as dangerous an alliance as R/T, after all, without the nasty nickname.
Also I promise not to be as difficult to work with as Tamas. No offense, Tamas, if you're out there.
Ben
Message from France to England
>
> After we've heard from one or two of our neighbors I'd like to start
> making some long term plans with you. E/F is as dangerous an alliance
> as R/T, after all, without the nasty nickname.
Yes, we can call it the NautJugger and completely confuse the rest of the
board!
Of course I'm giving it another shot. Gotta see if people can learn from
their mistakes, right? And the time constraints I was under last time
have, thankfully, dissipated -- note the prompt reply to your press.
Your approach sounds sensible. While it's good to know that I've got at
least one communicative neighbor, we should wait a day to get a feel for
the competition before we start making plans. On a side note, I actually
just finished a game with Andy, me playing France and him playing Italy,
where, quite frankly, he whipped my butt. I left myself wide open to an
early Italian attack, and he has taught me to never do that again. At
least he knows I'll be watching him this time.
I will get back to you as soon as I've heard some other introductions. For
now, though, I'd say that our early communication is a good sign for
future cooperation.
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> On a side note, I actually just finished a game with Andy,
> me playing France and him playing Italy, where, quite frankly,
> he whipped my butt. I left myself wide open to an early
> Italian attack, and he has taught me to never do that again. At
> least he knows I'll be watching him this time.
You know, I almost included in my note that he seemed like just the kind of
player to send Italy after France from the beginning. But I didn't, I just
sent you the :-O instead. Heh.
> I'd say that our early communication is a good sign for
> future cooperation.
There isn't as much fresh meat as there was in comments, I don't know if you
checked out the jdpr's, but Germany's was 13xx as I recall & Austria's in
that neighborhood too. And then there's Andy B. . . Anyway, I like your
early press & I agree it's a good sign.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Greetings. Good morning? Trying to count off the hours from Eastern U.S.
to Holland - forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing you are reading this
early a.m.
I recognized your e-mail immediately from the Vermont Group so I went to the
official list to see how many of us are members. Would you believe. . . .
six. All of us but Jason Bennett in Turkey. Hopefully there won't be a
problem with dropouts. Doug would be disappointed.
Concerning Belgium I would like to get it in '01 but that is negotiable.
The door for long-term planning is open. Let's hear from our other
neighbors & figure out something good for us both.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben
How ya doing.
> Greetings again. I followed the Pitkisser list for awhile but realized
PBEM is probably where I belong - I hope the convention went (is going?
don't remember) well & I hope you win all the prizes.
>
Its next weekend and in full swing. Thank you.
> I do not have a lot of experience with England & I hope you will give
me some pointers about how you play the blue pieces.
Well....i have a couple of simple rules....
1. Always open to the Channel.
2. Dont ever give all of your neighbors a reason to attack you.
> Anyway we have Germany & France to discuss, and I imagine Russia too.
So let's get a feel for the players & plan from there.
France is a good player....
Germany is one of the best plyers in the world. Dont believe a word he
says.....he will cut your heart out as soon as talk to you. My suggestion
with him is to get the Russian on your side and kill him.
If I can help....let me know
Andy
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Greetings from one of your many neighbors.
I love playing Russia - it combines the diplomacy challenge of being a
central power with the tactical advantage of being an edge power. The best
of both worlds, if you like it like that.
I recognized your name from the Vermont Group so I went to the official site
to see how many we were. We are - get this - six. Every one of us but
Jason Bennett to your south. Wouldn't it be funny if he dropped out.
To get things started in c2 I imagine you will want to focus in the south.
I intend to try for Norway for a fleet, if that eases your mind, also I
would like to see you get Sweden & I will apply such pressure as I can to
make sure you get it.
Long term E and R can be terrific allies, with so many dots in between. So
let's bear that in mind & look out for each other's interest as things
develop.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Thanks for the tips.
> Germany is one of the best plyers in the world. Dont believe a word he
> says.....he will cut your heart out as soon as talk to you. My suggestion
> with him is to get the Russian on your side and kill him.
> If I can help....let me know
Giving the same idea to Russia can't hurt. A great deal will depend on Austria, who appears to be no slouch if JDPR means anything. ;o)
Ben
Message from France to England
> There isn't as much fresh meat as there was in comments, I don't know if
> you
> checked out the jdpr's, but Germany's was 13xx as I recall & Austria's
> in
> that neighborhood too. And then there's Andy B. . . Anyway, I like
> your
> early press & I agree it's a good sign.
>
Word on the street is that Germany's a damned fine player. We mustn't let
him get the best of us. I'm writing him as soon as I'm done with this
message, but I think, given his skill, that it would be wise for us to
compare notes early and often. Of course, if we find ourselves all getting
along nicely early on, I'd be willing to entertain a Western Triple that
lets me head south.
I don't know much about the Eastern players. Eric G. was a commentator,
though, I remember that much.
Erik
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
Greetings from distant England.
We have neighbors in common & I am sure much to discuss over time. Also
thinking pretty long-term E and A are natural allies, as England is a naval
western power & Austria an eastern army power.
Particularly with Italy - the dangerous Andy Bartalone - and Russia -
dangerous because it's Russia - we should be in touch often. That said I've
heard nothing from either so far.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben, I forgive you, I just received your press and its 22:16 p.m.
Message to all
Is this our Eric? playing Russia?
ID Email Name JDPR Rating JDPR
Games JDPR Rank
1791 ericg (at) mac.com Eric Goodman 1349.00 5
288 8 0 8.00
What is Jason's JDPR? I couldnt find him.
This must be our Benjamin:
ID Email Name JDPR Rating JDPR Games JDPR Rank RR Games RR Resignations
RR Ratio
6887 benjamin.harris (at) mindspring.com Ben Harris 1012.00 4 3835 4 0
4.00
Message from Germany to England
Hi again Ben, this is a follow up to our time stamp check ;-)
>Hopefully there won't be a problem with dropouts.>
I agree they are a bunch of dropouts at the Vermont Group ;-) that's what
binds us.
But they are reliable for seeing it through to the end.
>Concerning Belgium I would like to get it in '01 but that is negotiable. >
Thank you for sharing your concerns and desires with me in regard to
Belgium.
I was hoping to eliminate you before the end of '01 but who am I to brush
away concerns and desires.
I am very pleased to hear that you are not blinded by need and that
negotiations can be conducted.
>The door for long-term planning is open. Let's hear from our other
neighbors & figure out something good for us both.>
A year is indeed a long time in diplomacy so lets discuss Belgium in the
near future after speaking to neighbours, close and far. Once I have tasted
the situation around the world I will get back to you with concrete
suggestions for the good of us both.
Good hunting. May we live long and prosper.
p.s. OK, I will not eliminate you before the end op '01 and I will take your
desire for Belgium to heart in negotiations with my neighbours. Should
France have the same desire regarding Belgium then I am more than willing to
act as a go between. The world is large enough for the three of us.
Message from Germany to all
Greetings all, Just thought that I would let you know that I wish to solo
and that I hope to have a good time whilst doing so.
I will have to make Belgium my 18th SC as England has desires for it. It is
negotiable according to England but hey
if he wants it then I will take Beligium last. It wont matter then.
Anyone else have any wishes. If not then all just vote me the winner and we
can move on.
I am easy, if two of you have the same solo wish then hey lets compromise
;-)
May you all live for as long as you want and never want for as long as you
live.
Tony
p.s. Its bedtime here in holland (Ben its 00:03 a.m. now), will get back to
A,T, R tomorrow.
Message from Master to all
Players,
The game has now started, powers have been assigned and the opening
salvos have been fired. I think we've got a great group of players in
this game, so I'm sure it will be a great experience for all of you
and for our commentators.
One of our players will be gone for a week from the 10th to the 18th.
I'm hoping that we can complete our first year before that hiatus.
Just to let you know, right now we've got over twenty commentators. I
expect that a few more will trickle in over the next few days.
Also, each Spring, as early as I can, I'm going to broadcast the
following message. After the first few years, I might cut back to once
every second year. I just want to make sure no one forgets about this.
------------
Players,
Please keep in mind that if you'd like to share your plans, strategy
and whatnot with the commentators, you can do that by sending press to
yourself. That way the commentators will see your comments, but other
players will not. If you send "press to o", anyone can see your
comments by requesting a history of the game. If you send "press to
m", I will see your comments but the commentators will not.
You are not required to share information with the commentators, but
you are encouraged to do so.
Greg, GM
C2
-------------
I'd like to wish everyone the best of luck in the game - have a great
game everyone.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from Russia to all
>[Grey] Broadcast message in 'c2':
>Is this our Eric? playing Russia?
Da, dat's me, Tovarich. But watz wit' all the hush-hush secret
stuff? You messin' wit' me? Why doncha come out where's I can see ya,
huh?
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to England
Hey Ben,
>I love playing Russia - it combines the diplomacy challenge of being a
>central power with the tactical advantage of being an edge power. The best
>of both worlds, if you like it like that.
Ironically, I do best with Italy and Austria. I've played Russia
before, and it usually leaves me feeling schizophrenic! But I do
enjoy the diplomatic aspect, and it makes it pretty hard for any of
my neighbors to ignore me.
>Every one of us but
>Jason Bennett to your south. Wouldn't it be funny if he dropped out.
If there's an AT vs. R going at the time, it would be hilarious. Not
so funny if it's RT vs. A though. :)
>To get things started in c2 I imagine you will want to focus in the south.
>I intend to try for Norway for a fleet, if that eases your mind, also I
>would like to see you get Sweden & I will apply such pressure as I can to
>make sure you get it.
Obviously both of those things are good to hear in central command.
Since I haven't heard boo from A or T to date, I have no idea what
I'm up to yet, but I certainly expecting a southern focus.
>Long term E and R can be terrific allies, with so many dots in between. So
>let's bear that in mind & look out for each other's interest as things
>develop.
Absolutely. Also because you'll have lots of fleets, and I won't have
many, it gives us lots of options for hassle-free cooperation. While
I will want *some* presence in Scandinavia there's lots of room for
us to work together to our mutual advantage.
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> >Every one of us but
> >Jason Bennett to your south. Wouldn't it be funny if he dropped out.
>
> If there's an AT vs. R going at the time, it would be hilarious. Not
> so funny if it's RT vs. A though. :)
Interesting you say that. I think you *have* heard from Austria. I think
he sent our anonymous broadcast, calling us out with our modest jdpr's. I
have a laundry list of reasons & will share some of them if you don't mind.
#1 on the list is that it appears to have been written by someone for whom
English is a second language. Philippe Bergeron, perhaps? Another note
about our Austria - I was intrigued to see that his JDPR is what it is
because he has, in a relatively small number of games, one solo. Four
losses, one 4 way draw, and one solo. As - coincidence? - Austria, in a
game that appears to have been (judging by average jdpr of 960) for
newbies. Wouldn't that describe perfectly the person who would send just
such a grey broadcast? Just thinking out loud, of course it's not really
important anyway. . .
> --- Tzarface
I *love* this. Excellent choice.
Ben
Message from England to all
> This must be our Benjamin:
> Ben Harris 1012.00
I just want to point out, that my JDPR is within several percentage points
of Andy's, at 1085. Therefore I am pretty much as good as Andy Bartalone,
who is well known in some circles as a player who uses ellipses very
frequently. . .
Also I want to point out that Greg's JDPR of 1431 is highest of all of us,
and I think we should gang up on him and fix the game settings so we all
solo.
Finally I want Tony to know that Belgium is his, if he will but send me a
case of that weird fruit flavored beer they have there.
Thank you.
Ben
Message from England to England
Greetings gallery.
Some quick thoughts as we open up. I set preference for random & ended up
with England. I can count on one hand the number of times I've played dip
ftf, and on two hands the number of times I've played pbem. I've played
England exactly once, in a nopress game. I do not know what I am doing, so
I'll have to do some research & try not to embarrass myself.
Around the horn, opening thoughts:
Austria: Haven't heard from him directly but if he didn't send that weird
grey broadcast then I'm Richard Nixon. It appears all the other players
are native English speakers, so his cadence stands out. I do not think the
veterans will be much interested & I do not think the newer players will be
pleased.
France: A good writer and hopefully an alliance-type player. Hard to tell
from three presses, but if I keep up my end I hope the stream of
communication will be enough to get us started in the right direction.
Germany: I have no reason to doubt Andy B.'s assessment of Tony as a top
class player. I am pleased to see Andy sent the same warning to Erik,
judging by the last press I got from him.
Russia: I see Eric's had some success with Russia in the past with a 3WD -
coincidentally, with a Germany eliminating Erik Diehn as England - with
play in the south. This is a good sign.
Italy: Andy knows I'm fairly inexperienced, as we've corresponded though we
haven't played. So I will ask him for advice & I know he will always have
something to say; hopefully the open dialogue will serve us both. . .
Turkey: Still waiting to hear from him. No entry in the floc.net universe
that I can find. I guess he's new.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from England to England
> Austria: Haven't heard from him directly but if he didn't send that weird
> grey broadcast then I'm Richard Nixon.
I suppose it could be Tony in Germany too. I wasn't much good at this game
(who sent the grey press?) in Comments, either.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Word on the street is that Germany's a damned fine player. We mustn't let
> him get the best of us. I'm writing him as soon as I'm done with this
> message, but I think, given his skill, that it would be wise for us to
> compare notes early and often.
I'm getting the sense Andy is nudging us toward an EF vs. G, and I'm
guessing the reason is, Andy wants to see the west resolve as slowly as
possible so he can focus on the East. He would like us to struggle as
allies against a superior Germany, I'm thinking, because if it were an EG
or FG he would have to worry (a) that the west is resolving too quickly and
(b) that the dangerous Tony Vernon is growing too quickly. I suspect if
our alliance structure were something other than EF we would find a stray
unit in, say, PIE or TYR, upsetting the balance to try to straighten things
out.
I frankly am leaning toward an EF myself, right now, having heard from
Germany. He's giving me the heebie jeebies. No concrete discussions, in
fact I think he studiously avoided them. You'll hear from him tomorrow I
imagine - let me know what you think.
> Of course, if we find ourselves all getting
> along nicely early on, I'd be willing to entertain a Western Triple that
> lets me head south.
The player most at risk in the western triple is Germany. So I am all in
favor of you suggesting it but I would not be surprised to see it shot down.
> I don't know much about the Eastern players. Eric G. was a commentator,
> though, I remember that much.
Yeah. I checked out his record. He's played a few games & soloed once as
Italy. A good player.
We'll write more tomorrow I'm sure. Now it's bedtime.
Ben
Message from France to England
> I suspect if
> our alliance structure were something other than EF we would find a
> stray
> unit in, say, PIE or TYR, upsetting the balance to try to straighten
> things
> out.
I concur. If he sees a lot of imbalance in the area, we can count on a
play against Germany or I. While that's probably not bad for you in the
short run, the last thing you want is Andy B. with the run of the
Mediterranean. We will all be better off if I'm still around down there
to keep him in line.
>
> I frankly am leaning toward an EF myself, right now, having heard from
> Germany. He's giving me the heebie jeebies. No concrete discussions,
> in
> fact I think he studiously avoided them. You'll hear from him tomorrow
> I
> imagine - let me know what you think.
Already heard from him. It took a little time to sort out the dry wit
from the serious statements; those broadcasts threw me for a little loop
briefly.
He's gunning to stir up trouble over Belgium, I think, which he's
probably got plans on (like all of us, I guess). The only concrete
information that he passed along is that you have interest in the space --
a piece of news so obvious, you have to wonder why he even points it
out, right? In any case, without having spent a lot of time conversing
with him, I can tell you right now that you seem a much easier person to
work with. As soon as we've got a sense of the Russian's early thoughts,
I think we should begin discussing some specifics.
>
> > Of course, if we find ourselves all getting
> > along nicely early on, I'd be willing to entertain a Western Triple
> that
> > lets me head south.
> The player most at risk in the western triple is Germany. So I am all
> in
> favor of you suggesting it but I would not be surprised to see it shot
> down.
Sure, why not? At least the rumor will get out there and keep Russia and
Italy on their toes. I'll suggest it to Tony in my next message. If you'd
like to make the same suggestion, please do so -- as you said, Germany's
usually the fall guy in the end of those deals.
>
> > I don't know much about the Eastern players. Eric G. was a
> commentator,
> > though, I remember that much.
> Yeah. I checked out his record. He's played a few games & soloed once
> as
> Italy. A good player.
Well, my record's awful, but I'm on the mend, I hope.
>
> We'll write more tomorrow I'm sure. Now it's bedtime.
>
I hear you. Talk to you in the morning.
Erik
Message to all
> >[Grey] Broadcast message in 'c2':
> >Is this our Eric? playing Russia?
>
> Da, dat's me, Tovarich. But watz wit' all the hush-hush secret
> stuff? You messin' wit' me? Why doncha come out where's I can see ya,
> huh?
No.....Eric Hunter played Russia in the first game...not Eric Goodman...
But Eric is every bit as good as his namesake.
Message from Italy to all
>
> > This must be our Benjamin:
> > Ben Harris 1012.00
>
> I just want to point out, that my JDPR is within several percentage points
> of Andy's, at 1085. Therefore I am pretty much as good as Andy Bartalone,
> who is well known in some circles as a player who uses ellipses very
> frequently. . .
Be careful what you say.....everyone here knows that I suck at this game.
> Also I want to point out that Greg's JDPR of 1431 is highest of all of us,
> and I think we should gang up on him and fix the game settings so we all
> solo.
Ok....I dont want to be part of that.....see Greg...I am not a
mutineer...:-)
> Finally I want Tony to know that Belgium is his, if he will but send me a
> case of that weird fruit flavored beer they have there.
That would be Lambic.
Message from Italy to England and France
Tony is already asking me to attack you both, so I suggest working
together.
Seriously.
Message from Italy to England
And if you are working with Erik in France....dont go to the Channel.
Message from Turkey to all
Good to hear from everyone. I'm afraid I don't have a JDPR, although
it's not for lack of trying! All my games have completed since Jan 1 of
this year.
Looking forward to it....
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Good to hear from you!
As you say, we're distance, but it's important that we stay in good
contact, for the day when we can help one another significantly!
jason
Message from Russia to all
> > >[Grey] Broadcast message in 'c2':
> > >Is this our Eric? playing Russia?
> >
> > Da, dat's me, Tovarich. But watz wit' all the hush-hush secret
> > stuff? You messin' wit' me? Why doncha come out where's I can see ya,
> > huh?
>
>No.....Eric Hunter played Russia in the first game...not Eric Goodman...
>
>But Eric is every bit as good as his namesake.
Lemme 'splain, 'cuz youse havin some trouble gettin' dem fax straight, see.
#1- I'm Eric. That other Eric, I'm his namesake. Just 'cuz he's been dippin
longer dan me an doin bedder dan me don't make him da original guy.
#2- Da first inkwyry was askin' if da' guy playin' Russia (dat's me,
comrade) is da same guy whatz got da ID dat he showed in da broadcast.
Since I'z da guy what used ta have da "@mac.com" moniker, he was inkwyrin'
about me, not dat udder Eric guy.
#3- Since I'z da one what said I'z da' guy what da udder guy was askin'
about, whatcha' doin' contradiktin' me in fronna' my whole family fer?
Alla dis disrepectin, an ya ain't even got da constatushun ta come out an
talk ta me face ta face. Sheesh! Watz da world comin' to, anyway?
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to England
>Interesting you say that. I think you *have* heard from Austria. I think
>he sent our anonymous broadcast, calling us out with our modest jdpr's. I
>have a laundry list of reasons & will share some of them if you don't mind.
Well, FWIW, I *still* haven't heard from Austria, so if it was him, he's
doing a good job of hiding it. Germany's another possibility because if
we're going to get into JDPR-biasing, his is basically the same as mine.
> > --- Tzarface
>I *love* this. Excellent choice.
:) I must admit that I did amuse myself with that choice, too. Problem is
that I don't really know anything about the real Scarface character (I saw
the Pacino movie ages ago, but don't remember anything but violence).
A quick web search of Scarface sites shows that I can only use movie quotes
if I *really* want to piss people off. Apparently the character says "f***"
like every third word. I toned it down to "messin'" in the one I used. Of
course in that movie, Scarface was also Cuban, which makes the whole
Italian theme questionable, but in my defence, Howard Hawks made a version
in the '30s where Scarface was a Chicago mobster.
I just hope I haven't offended every non-native-english speaking observer
and player by using a potentially insulting stereotype!
--- Tzarface
Message from Germany to England
Hello Ben *timestamp* sent at 10:10 a.m.
So how are negotiations going? I have spoken to all my neighbours now. I just have Turkey left.
Italy mentioned that he had spoken to you and directly asked me if GI had plans from the gate.
I can only assume that he was referring to your intention on moving on BEL. Maybe he sees this as a possible E against F which he maybe would like to combine with a GI against France.
I informed him that I was still making my rounds. I got the impression that AI are friendly as ar RT. I have yet to speak to Turkey so I cant confirm this. The French asked me to discuss Belgium with him. This was before he knew that you had an eye on Belgium. A french interest for Belgium is usually used as a springboard for a convoy to england or an eventual attack on Gemany. How are negotiations going on the ENG channel?
It may also mean that he just wants to know my intention with Belgium. Usually a german invasion of Belgium spells trouble for France or s solid front line between the two nations to allow the other to look elsewhere.
Taking the Italians comments into account an EG friendship seems the most likely. I guess you will have to wait and see how the Russian opens. If he is friendly with Turkey then I can only assume that Austria is the intended target. This gives you and I room to manouvre in the north. Lets see how it goes. I dont mind you getting BEL but I would obviously only like to see a fleet there. Maybe an opening edi - nwg, lon - nth, lvp - edi would leave all options open for you. But I would only allow a fleet into Belgium.
Message from Germany to all
> Finally I want Tony to know that Belgium is his, if he will but send me a
case of that weird fruit flavored beer they have there.<
Ah, you mean a case of the "forbidden drink", consider it done. Thank you for giving me BEL as my 18th center.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> And if you are working with Erik in France....dont go to the Channel.
I was going to ask you about that. Seemed tough to reconcile everything I
was hearing.
It looks like you wrote Erik already about Germany, which will help. I
imagine you wrote Eric, too, - why wouldn't you - but it will help. Curious
to know what you hear from Austria, who still hasn't written me. I'm
guessing he's the source of the original grey broadcast. I saw he's had one
solo & it was with Austria; it may have been a newbie game.
I'm getting a sense Eric will open south - what else would he tell me - but
I imagine he'd make a good partner for you.
Ben
Message from England to France and Italy
> Tony is already asking me to attack you both, so I suggest working
> together.
Based on what I hear from him - I don't doubt it. Thanks for the tip.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> As you say, we're distance, but it's important that we stay in good
> contact, for the day when we can help one another significantly!
To a certain extent that day has already come. For instance, I can tell you
some things you may not know.
Andy Bartalone in Italy is an absolute top rank player. He is outstanding.
Ignore this garbage about JDPR's, it doesn't mean anything for some players
& he's one of them.
Let me know what you hear from Austria & Russia as their play in the east
will ripple into the west. For now we are still exchanging pleasantries
over here, if you can call the weird broadcasts pleasantries.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
Greeting to you too Ben,
May you keep things interesting in the north while
I try to survive! If you hear anything of interest,
please let me know and I will do the same.
Best regards,
Philippe
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Already heard from him. It took a little time to sort out the dry wit
> from the serious statements; those broadcasts threw me for a
> little loop briefly.
Yeah. You call it dry wit, I call it making fun of me. I'm not sure what
purpose it's supposed to be serving.
> He's gunning to stir up trouble over Belgium, I think, which he's
> probably got plans on (like all of us, I guess). The only concrete
> information that he passed along is that you have interest in
> the space --
> a piece of news so obvious, you have to wonder why he even points it
> out, right? In any case, without having spent a lot of time conversing
> with him, I can tell you right now that you seem a much
> easier person to
> work with. As soon as we've got a sense of the Russian's
> early thoughts,
> I think we should begin discussing some specifics.
Absolutely. What I told him was that I was interested in Belgium but it was
negotiable. It was not a big deal - still isn't - but from that he has
extracted the broadcasts & apparently his press to you. Plus his recent
press to me included "Belgium" or "BEL" eight times in the whole two
paragraph press. Weird.
> Italy on their toes. I'll suggest it to Tony in my next
> message. If you'd like to make the same suggestion, please
> do so -- as you said, Germany's usually the fall guy in
> the end of those deals.
If we both propose it I think he would guess we were in cahoots.
> Well, my record's awful, but I'm on the mend, I hope.
We are all on the mend. ;o)
I will look over our tactical options later & hope you do the same. I am no
tactical genius & count on discussion to make plans.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Well, FWIW, I *still* haven't heard from Austria, so if it
> was him, he's doing a good job of hiding it. Germany's
> another possibility because if we're going to get into
> JDPR-biasing, his is basically the same as mine.
As I've said I don't think it's a big deal, though I agree Germany is the
other possibility. I wonder whether you overlooked this from Germany's
opening broadcast, some sixteen or so hours ago:
> p.s. Its bedtime here in holland (Ben its 00:03 a.m. now),
> will get back to A,T, R tomorrow.
So apparently *someone* heard from Austria yesterday.
> I just hope I haven't offended every non-native-english
> speaking observer and player by using a potentially
> insulting stereotype!
Well, there's always gunboat. ;o)
Ben
Message from England to England
Greetings again gallery.
What I am hoping for is, in the west, EF v. G, and in the east, ARI v. T
followed by IR v. A, followed by Andy stabbing Eric. Not too far fetched.
The advantage of this in the east is, it keeps Russia locked up in a land
war throughout.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
So....Ben
On a completely different note.... Why havent you signed up for DipCon
yet....you live in Maryland, its in DC and next weekend.
Face to Face can only make your online game better.
Andy
Its a flaming baton
Thats ready to twirl
Its George Bush on acid
Singing the Duke of Earl
Gonna be a new world
-Mojo Nixon
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> So....Ben
>
> On a completely different note.... Why havent you signed up for DipCon
> yet....you live in Maryland, its in DC and next weekend.
Ooh, a hard sell, in front of a crowd, too.
> Face to Face can only make your online game better.
Andy I would love to, but I can't be disappearing for large chunks of time
like that with two small kids roaming the house. I have no doubt I'd get
clubbed like a baby seal (at the convention, not at home by the children),
but I still think it would be fun. I will get vicarious pleasure out of you
winning all the prizes, though.
:-)
I may be in D.C. during the workday in a few weeks - stress the word *may* -
& would look you up if that's ok. Probably should continue this off-line,
though.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Hello Ben *timestamp* sent at 10:10 a.m.
Let's synchronize our watches.
> So how are negotiations going? I have spoken to all my
> neighbours now. I just have Turkey left.
> Italy mentioned that he had spoken to you and directly asked
> me if GI had plans from the gate.
Yeah, I figured. You two being the most senior veterans, I believe.
> I can only assume that he was referring to your intention on
> moving on BEL. Maybe he sees this as a possible E against F
> which he maybe would like to combine with a GI against France.
Interesting. But you don't want to do this?
> I informed him that I was still making my rounds. I got the
> impression that AI are friendly as ar RT. I have yet to speak
> to Turkey so I cant confirm this. The French asked me to
> discuss Belgium with him. This was before he knew that you
> had an eye on Belgium. A french interest for Belgium is
> usually used as a springboard for a convoy to england or an
> eventual attack on Gemany. How are negotiations going on the
> ENG channel?
We still have a few days. So far we haven't decided anything.
> It may also mean that he just wants to know my intention with
> Belgium. Usually a german invasion of Belgium spells trouble
> for France or s solid front line between the two nations to
> allow the other to look elsewhere.
> Taking the Italians comments into account an EG friendship
> seems the most likely. I guess you will have to wait and see
> how the Russian opens. If he is friendly with Turkey then I
> can only assume that Austria is the intended target. This
> gives you and I room to manouvre in the north. Lets see how
> it goes. I dont mind you getting BEL but I would obviously
> only like to see a fleet there. Maybe an opening edi - nwg,
> lon - nth, lvp - edi would leave all options open for you.
> But I would only allow a fleet into Belgium.
Depending on how negotiations go over the Channel, I definitely think we can
do something like that.
Ok I don't care anymore what time it is, right of England. ;-)
Ben
Message from France to England
> > Tony is already asking me to attack you both, so I suggest working
> > together.
> Based on what I hear from him - I don't doubt it. Thanks for the tip.
>
> Ben
>
Good read on Andy, by the way. How much do you buy this? And what has Tony
said to you so far?
Wait, just got the second e-mail from you. You just answered my questions.
So, here's my take: we have a clearly volatile, experienced and ambitious
player in the form of Germany. Italy sees him as the largest threat in the
West; I'm fairly sure Andy is writing me off, and sees you as a midgame
problem to be dealt with later. Andy will probably keep an exploratory
unit hanging in the west, and if he sees an opening in the south, he'll
take it. Otherwise, he wants us tying up Tony until he can get sort things
out with ATR.
In the interest of parity, I'm willing to support you into Belgium, if I
can. I don't have an exact opening planned out, so that may not even be
feasible, but I'd certainly rather see you there than Germany. And, of
course, I'd feel much safer seeing a fleet there than an army, but if you
can provide a convincing argument for the latter, I'm willing to consider
it.
The big wild card here is Russia. I've done the opening salvos with him,
but I don't have anything concrete. After we've exchanged a few more
messages with him, we should confer and decide if he seems to be opening
more southerly or more northerly. At that point, I think we can get into
some tactical specifics.
I'll still write and suggest the triple to Tony, just to see what he says,
if nothing else.
Sound good?
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> So, here's my take: we have a clearly volatile, experienced
> and ambitious
> player in the form of Germany. Italy sees him as the largest
> threat in the West; I'm fairly sure Andy is writing me off,
> and sees you as a midgame problem to be dealt with later.
> Andy will probably keep an exploratory unit hanging in the
> west, and if he sees an opening in the south, he'll take it.
> Otherwise, he wants us tying up Tony until he can get sort
> things out with ATR.
I could not agree more. I think you hit the nail on the head.
> In the interest of parity, I'm willing to support you into
> Belgium, if I can. I don't have an exact opening planned
> out, so that may not even be feasible, but I'd certainly
> rather see you there than Germany.
Thanks. Off the top of my head, there is the Maginot: MAR s PAR - BUR, BRE
- MAO. Sets you up to support me into BEL, from BUR, and still pick up
Iberia.
> And, of course, I'd feel much safer seeing a fleet
> there than an army, but if you can provide a convincing
> argument for the latter, I'm willing to consider it.
Food for thought, then:
If our plan is to attack Germany, are we not better situated if I have a F
NTH and A BEL? Rather than a A LVP (or NWY, or whatever) and F BEL? Seems
much more natural to me, as then Germany will be limited to at most two
builds and if we succeed in landing the army then so much the better.
> The big wild card here is Russia. I've done the opening
> salvos with him, but I don't have anything concrete. After
> we've exchanged a few more messages with him, we should
> confer and decide if he seems to be opening more southerly
> or more northerly. At that point, I think we can get into
> some tactical specifics.
In our favor I hope is your loquacious neighbor to the East. I bet Andy
will write to Russia pretty much what he wrote to us about Germany. Russia
can be promised a couple of dots in exchange for some cooperation, though
his involvement can and should be pretty limited.
> I'll still write and suggest the triple to Tony, just to see
> what he says, if nothing else.
Sure. He wrote me earlier vaguely suggesting an EG. I imagine he's vaguely
suggested an FG to you. . .
Let me know what you hear from Russia.
> Sound good?
Sounds excellent.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
Well Germany and Austria got back to me, and I must admit that the timing
and content of their messages makes me suspicious. I'll let you imagine the
tactical details of why I say this, but overall their combined proposed
moves would leave me in a really bad position should they cooperate to take
advantage of it.
Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.
More later.
--- Tzarface
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben, just got your message.
Not much has changed here. Austria was pushing for news on my KIE fleet, I
spoke to Turkey last night whilst writing to you. He didnt confirm nor deny
any understanding between himself and Russia.
Although the actual spring moves take place do apparent alliances begin to
shine through, even then mainly due to the rolling of the dice. Concrete
plans cut this chance outcome down a little unless one of the parties is
surprised by a third party. How about some concrete plans. It will probably
be EGF trusting each other, EF against Germany, FG against England, EG
against France. Italy or Russia may say the balance with their respective
spring moves.
Have you a preference, north? south? towards me? in liasion with France and
me? with me? or shall we just await the spring outcome?
Let me know, chose wisely ;-)
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I think you and I see S'01 pretty much the same way. Keep options open & do
not be the victim of an ugly surprise.
France mentioned the Western Triple to me - did he ask you too? If so what
do you think?
You make a good case for EG in your last note but I really haven't decided &
not likely to commit until I see what our various neighbors are up to. How
are I/F relations? Can you tell?
As to my own preference - I haven't really got one. I have never played
England in a press game before & am trying to feel my way through - any
words of wisdom ("Never attack Germany. Always attack France. Give your
dots to Germany. And give your dots to Germany.") you have would be
appreciated.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Well Germany and Austria got back to me, and I must admit
> that the timing and content of their messages makes me
> suspicious. I'll let you imagine the tactical details of
> why I say this, but overall their combined proposed moves
> would leave me in a really bad position should they
> cooperate to take advantage of it.
According to Andy our Germany is hell on wheels, so watch your back. I was
going to mention to you, that when you happen to have your fleet in Sweden
F'01, we may be able to find some good things to do with it in '02, looking
forward. Profitable & stabilizing for you, you know. And a start toward
sharing the dots between us. . .
> Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.
You are not paranoid. Everyone is out to get you.
> More later.
I look forward to it - I enjoy your press.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
> Tony - > I think you and I see S'01 pretty much the same way. Keep
options open & do
not be the victim of an ugly surprise.>
I agree completely. Usually EFG have one hell of a fight and someone in the
east grows like cauliflower.
> France mentioned the Western Triple to me - did he ask you too? If so
what
> do you think?>
I mentioned it to the both of you, first to you then to him when I sent him
a copy of my p.s. from my first mail to you(There is room for the 3 of us)
remember.
> You make a good case for EG in your last note but I really haven't decided
&
> not likely to commit until I see what our various neighbors are up to.
How
> are I/F relations? Can you tell?
Yes, my attitude too, lets see what they do. Everyone promises everything in
the spring. By fall we should have some basis on which to build once the
initial nerves have settled down.
Neither has mentioned anything. Italy did say he spoke to France but he
didnt go into details. I havent heared from France since his and mine
opening messages, followed with a message from me to him. But by the look of
things he has let my message sinke in and talked to you about it. I assume
he will be contacing me shortly. Maybe you or him should set up a 3 way
press. I dont mind initiating it. Let me know.
> As to my own preference - I haven't really got one. I have never played
> England in a press game before & am trying to feel my way through - any
> words of wisdom ("Never attack Germany. Always attack France. Give your
> dots to Germany. And give your dots to Germany.") you have would be
> appreciated.
I always find England nerve racking in the first year, even after that its
difficult to develop. You need fleets, loads of them with the occasional
army thrown in at the right time. Once France or England gets the initial
stab in then its difficult to retaliate. The one who moves first usually
comes out the best. But its diplomacy and anything can happen.
The more solid the base the better for those in that base. An EFG fanning
outwards may ensure the comforting feeling we all need right now. But once
again its diplomacy. No matter what happens keep diploming. Use all styles.
Sometimes its just luck the first spring. But just look at it as real life
diplomacy with real countries ran by real people and all emotions and
feelings related to such an environment.
The sooner you build up a relationship the better. The bigger the
relationship in diplomacy the better. The stab when it comes is best dealt
out when its least expected but does has a devestating result.
But do remember, everyone has the right to your opinion ;-)
Let the board dictate your style of diplomacy at all time. Even if someone
has stabbed you a hundred fold there will always be a time when he needs
you. Stay in control of your own destiny for as long as possible but grab
what power you can especially if you can hold onto it. I will let you know
when I hear from France, as it is I have sent him two presses so I have to
await his reply. If you wish get a 3 way press going.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I am going to save your press. Thank you for sharing so much.
Now, we wait.
Ben
Message from England to England
> I havent heared from France since his and mine
> opening messages, followed with a message from
> me to him.
An interesting tidbit. And a good sign.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
> I am going to save your press. Thank you for sharing so much.>
I always lie ;-)
That was a lie ;-)
Either way the main lesson I have learnt is stay in control of your own
destiny, if you lose it sit back and strike when you can retake possession
of that destiny again . Try not to lose it again ;-)
Look at the whole board!
> Now, we wait.>
No, yes, maybe..... we still need to at least try and get the EFG working.
Maybe you should both pay me a visit to discuss matter further ;-) just
leave me BER to cotemplate on retaliation ;-)
Message from Germany to England and France
Well France just sent me a press. Either all three of us sit back and wait
or we start an EFG press going to kill time and see what develops. Any
preference? or will you two be paying me a visit ;-)
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> No, yes, maybe..... we still need to at least try and get the
> EFG working.
> Maybe you should both pay me a visit to discuss matter
> further ;-) just
> leave me BER to cotemplate on retaliation ;-)
:-)
Seriously, about an EFG. First of all I had read that it is Germany who
takes the risk. Second, I do not think it will affect my S'01, except I
guess would resolve the Channel, but my opening would remain the standard
one you suggested before. So I don't know how much it affects me.
Are you prepared to order BER - SIL? Or do you have something else in mind?
> Well France just sent me a press. Either all three of us sit back and wait
> or we start an EFG press going to kill time and see what develops. Any
> preference? or will you two be paying me a visit ;-)
Sorry - I was waiting for you to open up the three-way discussion.
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Oops! Didn't realize this was sent to France too. I'll send it again:
******
Seriously, about an EFG. First of all I had read that it is Germany who
takes the risk. Second, I do not think it will affect my S'01, except I
guess would resolve the Channel, but my opening would remain the standard
one you suggested before. So I don't know how much it affects me.
Are you prepared to order BER - SIL? Or do you have something else in mind?
> Well France just sent me a press. Either all three of us sit back and wait
> or we start an EFG press going to kill time and see what develops. Any
> preference? or will you two be paying me a visit ;-)
Sorry - I was waiting for you to open up the three-way discussion.
Ben
******
Message from Germany to England
>Sorry - I was waiting for you to open up the three-way discussion.>
I think I did, but press seems to be crossing each other.
>>First of all I had read that it is Germany who
takes the risk. Second, I do not think it will affect my S'01, except I
guess would resolve the Channel, but my opening would remain the standard
one you suggested before. So I don't know how much it affects me.>
He who dares wins ;-)
Well if either EF, EG, FG team up against the one the that one is in trouble
unless a third party intervenes.
Your standard opening is OK unless France moves on the ENG. Russia may open
to bounce you in Norway. You then have to chose between LON and NWY. A worst
case scenario. Usually a bounce in the ENG is the safest bet when in doubt.
<BER - SIL>
This would only be interesting if the EFG was a clear cut fact. We have a
long way to go before it is. If it was then a move to SIL and BOH would be
better. But if I get it wrong then I will be doomned to be an observer in
the game.
We would have to discuss the EFG a lot more before I would make such a move.
Your opening dont forget stll leaves A YOR - BEL a possibility. One I would
have to take into account.
Message from Germany to England and France
> Oops! Didn't realize this was sent to France too. I'll send it again:
>
> ******>
It wasnt was it? anyway it is now. But nothing secret as can be seen
Unless you ment to say "Didnt realize this wasn't sent to France too".
> Seriously, about an EFG. First of all I had read that it is Germany who
> takes the risk. Second, I do not think it will affect my S'01, except I
> guess would resolve the Channel, but my opening would remain the standard
> one you suggested before. So I don't know how much it affects me.
>
> Are you prepared to order BER - SIL? Or do you have something else in
mind?
>
> > Well France just sent me a press. Either all three of us sit back and
wait
> > or we start an EFG press going to kill time and see what develops. Any
> > preference? or will you two be paying me a visit ;-)
> Sorry - I was waiting for you to open up the three-way discussion.
>
> Ben
> ******
>
Well as stated in my reply. I would have to be very sure of an EFG to order
that move.
Lets start talking. Get the press going. I havent eaten yet so you two talk
and count me in the press. I will reply later this evening.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I am trying to read between the lines & I'm getting the sense you are
looking for comfort from France, which is perfectly understandable.
> We would have to discuss the EFG a lot more before I would
> make such a move.
"We" who?
> Your opening dont forget stll leaves A YOR - BEL a
> possibility. One I would have to take into account.
I don't understand. You don't want this, do you?
Ok, I'll be away from my computer for awhile. I admit I cannot keep up with
your level of correspondence - I am pleased to have a slow day today at work
to get things off on the right foot. :-)
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
The standard opening moves for the Western Triple are pretty safe for us -
LON - NTH, EDI - NWG for me, BRE - MAO, PAR - BUR, MAR - SPA for you.
Germany, though, orders to RUH, DEN, and SIL(!) & I've received private
press from Germany proposing, if we were to carry it out, orders to SIL,
DEN, and BOH! Can't hurt to listen to him, though frankly my instinct right
now is just to look for an opportunity for us to take advantage of the
armies out of position by dropping the hammer as hard as we can.
I don't trust him any further than I can throw him, but who knows where this
dialogue will lead. Let me know what you think. One option will be you
trying for MUN in the fall, which according to the Western Triple formula
will be available.
Play along with him & see where it goes, if you don't mind. Could be good,
and if we maneuver ourselves into a position where G gets crushed quickly
then we will be able to push that much quicker to our next objectives. . .
Ben
Message from Germany to England
We as in EFG would have to discuss it further.
No, I definitely dont want an army in BEL. But your opening does allow for
just that. I was just pointing out the fact.
Yes, I need some assurance from France. He said you are hard in
negotiations, I havent noticed that. I understood your message where you
stated lets wait and see. Lets wait indeed. Maybe France will continue the
EFG press. If not then we will just have to wait and see. But we can still
discuss matters without him.
Message from France to England
Ben:
> The standard opening moves for the Western Triple are pretty safe for us
> -
> LON - NTH, EDI - NWG for me, BRE - MAO, PAR - BUR, MAR - SPA for you.
> Germany, though, orders to RUH, DEN, and SIL(!) & I've received private
> press from Germany proposing, if we were to carry it out, orders to SIL,
> DEN, and BOH! Can't hurt to listen to him, though frankly my instinct
> right
> now is just to look for an opportunity for us to take advantage of the
> armies out of position by dropping the hammer as hard as we can.
Wow, that's nuts. I can't believe he'd leave himself that open that early.
Either he's sincere or he's got something big cooking, and there hasn't
been enough time for the latter. I'm also still inclined to rush in and
take advantage of the good position.
Perhaps he's working to make sure that a.) you've got Russian headaches
and b.) I've got Italian headaches to ensure that we stick to the plan. We
should investigate that possiblity. I can tell you that Italy's repeated
warnings about Tony sound a tad fishy, though as we've both said, he's
probably just stirring up trouble.
>
> I don't trust him any further than I can throw him, but who knows where
> this
> dialogue will lead. Let me know what you think. One option will be you
> trying for MUN in the fall, which according to the Western Triple
> formula
> will be available.
I think we should go ahead with it. As you said, not much risk to us, and
I could end up in Bur within a season with every German army rushing
toward Russia. Let's roll with this, keep it quiet, and bring Russia into
the fold if we decide to reverse course and attack Germany after the first
season.
Of course, we've still got a few days of diplomacy, so this could change.
At least we're both on the same page -- triple if it really looks
promising (and we face threats from Russia and Italy), fake triple / EF
attack on Germany with possible Russian assistance otherwise. Can we agree
to that medium-term plan?
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
>
> Well as stated in my reply. I would have to be very sure of an EFG to
> order
> that move.
> Lets start talking. Get the press going.
Couldn't agree more. If you're both amenable to a Western Triple, then I
think it's a good idea, too. Seems to me like RAI are getting pretty
friendly, and that's bad news for us -- after Turkey is dispatched, Italy
heads west, Russia heads north, and Austria bites into his German
neighbor. If we attack jointly early, we can take care of them while
they're still focusing on Turkey. With Italy being as cagey as he is
toward Germany and I, I think this is a very smart move.
So what are we each going to do specifically? I can open BRE - MAO, Mar -
SPA, Par - Bur, which is pretty standard western triple stuff. Or, we
could take this approach ...
http://devel.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Szykman/triple.html
Much more ambitious and with a better possible long-term reward, but it
only gets us one build each after the first year. Please take a look and
let me know what you think.
Erik
Message from Germany to England and France
I like the look of it. Its a lot better than your suggested PAR - BUR ;-)
I would be willing to give it a try, only my moves can be considered really
agressive along with mar - pie.
France and I need to be pretty certain that england will join in and follow
through.
Lets see what england thinks.
Message from France to England
Ben:
On hindsight, I should have gone over that proposal with you first, but
what's done is done. I didn't think he'd ultimately go for the Par - Bur
opening, and his response confirms it.
In any case, a WT, even if we let it go longer than a couple of seasons,
still leaves us at an advantage. It's hard for Germany to build fleets and
justify them in this situation, and that's good for us.
Let me know what you think.
Erik
Message from England to France and Germany
Gentlemen -
I have out of town company & will get back to you probably Sunday. I see
you have a proposal(s) on the table & I wish I had time to look at it but I
don't - sorry.
Ben
Message from Turkey to England
Good to hear from you again.
I'm getting mixed signals over here. AIR all seem to be friendly to me,
but France is telling me that they're all out to get me. Not sure where
the truth lies.
Thanks for the info on Andy. I watched him in the last game, and was
quite impressed with his performance. I'll certainly keep my eye on him.
jason
Message from Russia to England
>According to Andy our Germany is hell on wheels, so watch your back.
I'm getting that impression without needing a reputation to confirm it!
Very interesting press coming from him. Based on what I've heard from him
so far, I do request that you not trust anything he says about me without
checking in with me for confirmation. I don't mean "are you going to stab
me" stuff (you wouldn't believe my answer whatever I said if you are
worried about one). I mean, if he tells you I'm mad at someone, or want to
see someone hurt, etc. please check in with me before taking action based
on it. I just get the distinct impression that he may be pretty loose with
his portrayal of other players' mindsets and situations.
Again, I may be being paranoid, but perhaps better to be safe and mention
the concern. What are you hearing from GF?
>when you happen to have your fleet in Sweden
>F'01, we may be able to find some good things to do with it in '02, looking
>forward.
That is the point of putting it there, though obviously Germany had some
different suggestions about how it could be effective. But since Germany
(1) is clearly an "operator" and (2) can hit both Scandinavia and my home
centers, I see lots of value in working with you to knock him out quickly.
Basically, I'm fine with playing things by ear, but I'm also up for talking
about how we might move forward from that position in F'02. I'd want to
move towards a position that is defensible in the north without being
threatening to you. That probably means another northern fleet to secure
Den/Bal, but to be honest I don't remember the minimum unit counts that the
other Eric kept talking about in C1. I'll look it up and get more specific
as we go forward.
Just trying to get a sense of what kinds of things would constitute "good
things" to do. I personally find it's a good idea to talk stuff out
hypothetically before the fact, so that we can more easily come up with
mutually agreeable plans when our units get closer together.
Sound good? Anything else we need to talk about?
--- Tzarface
Message from England to France and Germany
> So what are we each going to do specifically? I can open BRE - MAO, Mar -
> SPA, Par - Bur, which is pretty standard western triple stuff. Or, we
> could take this approach ...
>
> http://devel.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Szykman/triple.html
>
> Much more ambitious and with a better possible long-term reward, but it
> only gets us one build each after the first year. Please take a look and
> let me know what you think.
This looks like a blast. I'm in.
Ben
p.s. I grabbed 30 seconds to look at the site & send this - if this is not
the proposal I should be looking at let me know.
Message from England to all
Gentlemen -
I have out of town company this weekend & will not likely be available
until about 36 hour from now. Which is roughly a day and a half, in Tony's
time.
Thank you for your patience.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
Grabbed a few seconds to send out a quick note:
> >According to Andy our Germany is hell on wheels, so watch your back.
>
> I'm getting that impression without needing a reputation to confirm it!
>
> Very interesting press coming from him. Based on what I've heard from him
> so far, I do request that you not trust anything he says about me without
> checking in with me for confirmation. I don't mean "are you going to stab
> me" stuff (you wouldn't believe my answer whatever I said if you are
> worried about one). I mean, if he tells you I'm mad at someone, or want to
> see someone hurt, etc. please check in with me before taking action based
> on it. I just get the distinct impression that he may be pretty loose with
> his portrayal of other players' mindsets and situations.
Of course the same is true for me. I have already heard X from him and Y
from another player & I suspect the truth to be Y.
> Again, I may be being paranoid, but perhaps better to be safe and mention
> the concern. What are you hearing from GF?
So far everyone is getting along ok, as far as I can tell, here in the
west. No flashpoint, but no firm resolution of the ususal sore spots,
either.
> >when you happen to have your fleet in Sweden
> >F'01, we may be able to find some good things to do with it in '02,
looking
> >forward.
>
> That is the point of putting it there, though obviously Germany had some
> different suggestions about how it could be effective. But since Germany
> (1) is clearly an "operator" and (2) can hit both Scandinavia and my home
> centers, I see lots of value in working with you to knock him out quickly.
Good. Keep that thought. We'll put it to use, when the time is right.
> Basically, I'm fine with playing things by ear, but I'm also up for
talking
> about how we might move forward from that position in F'02. I'd want to
> move towards a position that is defensible in the north without being
> threatening to you. That probably means another northern fleet to secure
> Den/Bal, but to be honest I don't remember the minimum unit counts that
the
> other Eric kept talking about in C1. I'll look it up and get more specific
> as we go forward.
I am all in favor of reasonable garrisons to protect our peaceful border.
But the large deployment necessary to have the "minimum units" for the
protection of Northern Russia may not be an efficient use of your units.
Do the research, I encourage you, but you are talking about more units then
dots. You would find you had no units to maintain the hotter fronts in
your south. We will cross this bridge when we come to it, though.
> Just trying to get a sense of what kinds of things would constitute "good
> things" to do. I personally find it's a good idea to talk stuff out
> hypothetically before the fact, so that we can more easily come up with
> mutually agreeable plans when our units get closer together.
Absolutely.
> Sound good? Anything else we need to talk about?
In general I have had success with Russia by going into Germany or the
Turkish/Balkan area. I have not had success - though I've tried it -
becoming a naval power in the Atlantic. Basically beyond Norway there's
not much for you, just as beyond STP there's not much for me. It is
another reason for us to be allied, I think.
Anyway it is always excellent to hear from you.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> I'm getting mixed signals over here. AIR all seem to be friendly to me,
> but France is telling me that they're all out to get me. Not sure where
> the truth lies.
I do not need to tell you that AIR v. T is a common combination. I do not
have any special knowledge of it, though, here. What of the Black Sea,
then? If you are worried about an AIR then I think your best hope is to
hold them all off as long as possible & see if they start to fall on each
other, or something like that. I'd be glad to help you sort truth from
fiction if there are things you want me to bounce off some of your
neighbors.
> Thanks for the info on Andy. I watched him in the last game, and was
> quite impressed with his performance. I'll certainly keep my eye on him.
Peaceful coexistence between Turkey and Italy is difficult, I think
possible only where one commits to being an army power & the other a sea
power. It's tricky.
I wish I had good information for you but the Eastern powers have been
pretty quiet about their plans. Oh well.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> On hindsight, I should have gone over that proposal with you first, but
> what's done is done. I didn't think he'd ultimately go for the Par - Bur
> opening, and his response confirms it.
That's ok. Next time we can discuss it together but really I think this
suggestion was outstanding. See below.
> In any case, a WT, even if we let it go longer than a couple of seasons,
> still leaves us at an advantage. It's hard for Germany to build fleets and
> justify them in this situation, and that's good for us.
I suppose. My concern is that soon after S'02, I will have filled NWY,
SWE, and STP, and you will be trying to grind out dots against Andy, and
Tony will have his choice of either the southern Russian centers, or the
Austrian centers, to be followed soon enough by the other. I just think,
after this opening has gotten out of the gate, it favors Germany. So long
term I do not know how well this works for us, though if we decide to try
to make it work I will work harder at justifying it to myself. ;-) Also
you do not want to find yourself between Tony & the remnants of Andy. But
see below.
> Let me know what you think.
Two things. First of all Tony has not actually committed yet. He said he
wanted to see what I thought, & I said I was in, but he has not said he
would do it yet. Not that we should harp on it; I'm just pointing that out.
Second. Because of the drawbacks for us as we push into '02 and beyond,
let me point out an alternate set of orders for Fall '01:
England
EDI - NTH - HOL
NWG - NWY
France
GAS - BUR
PIE - TYR
MAO - SPA/sc
This would restrict you to one build but if successful would give you *two*
units against an undefended MUN in S '02, and Germany would only be getting
one build as well. We would crush him. By the end of '02 we should have
two to three builds each with open lanes to the east in front of us.
The key would be getting Andy not to freak out as you passed from PIE -
TYR. I think we could do it, diplomatically, & I would try to exert some
influence there too to help you out. Perhaps rather than involve him now,
just try to smooth things over in the fall after you've entered PIE in the
spring. I'll leave it to you - you know him better than I do.
Thoughts?
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
Had a laugh at myself when I reread this:
> > Just trying to get a sense of what kinds of things would constitute
"good
> > things" to do. I personally find it's a good idea to talk stuff out
> > hypothetically before the fact, so that we can more easily come up with
> > mutually agreeable plans when our units get closer together.
> Absolutely.
:-) Didn't mean to dodge your question. I'm alittle reluctant to start
assigning some dots to you, some to me, etc., as we do not know what
outside forces will be exerted against us or our mutual target(s). But it
would be something roughly along the famous stalemate line, I think.
Ben
Message from England to England
Gallery -
In my wildest dreams Tony will agree to this opening. It seems to me, a
relative newcomer, to have no incentive for England to stick with it,
unless France is insisting on it. Low long term payoff and a stab target
in F'01.
Meanwhile if Erik & Tony agree - no sure thing - I could end up with a
dominant position over Germany & allies in France & Russia who are too
badly embroiled in conflict elsewhere to turn & face me.
Anyway I hope there is some dialogue on this opening so I can review it,
after my plans backfire & I'm eliminated in '05.
Ben
Message from Turkey to England
I think the AIR thing is just talk on France's part. Russia and I are
bouncing in BLA, and Austria is doing everything he can to get me to
attack Russia with him.
Italy seems to be complaining that I'm quiet, but I haven't heard from
him in days. Not sure what he's up to. Hopefully nothing with Russia. :-)
Hang tight over there. I'll let you know if FG says anything of interest.
jason
Message from Italy to England
> It looks like you wrote Erik already about Germany, which will help. I
> imagine you wrote Eric, too, - why wouldn't you - but it will help.
Yes.
Curious
> to know what you hear from Austria, who still hasn't written me.
Have you written him, he says he hasnt heard from you.
I'm
> guessing he's the source of the original grey broadcast. I saw he's had one
> solo & it was with Austria; it may have been a newbie game.
I will have my hands full with him in at least the short term.
> I'm getting a sense Eric will open south - what else would he tell me - but
> I imagine he'd make a good partner for you.
Eric and I have never shared a game together, but we are familiar with
each other.
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Curious
> > to know what you hear from Austria, who still hasn't written me.
>
> Have you written him, he says he hasnt heard from you.
I had already written him, of course. We've now exchanged pleasantries.
> I'm
> > guessing he's the source of the original grey broadcast. I saw he's
had one
> > solo & it was with Austria; it may have been a newbie game.
>
> I will have my hands full with him in at least the short term.
Anything I can do let me know - dropping seeds, whatever.
> > I'm getting a sense Eric will open south - what else would he tell me -
but
> > I imagine he'd make a good partner for you.
>
> Eric and I have never shared a game together, but we are familiar with
> each other.
Good luck, etc.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> I think the AIR thing is just talk on France's part. Russia and I are
> bouncing in BLA, and Austria is doing everything he can to get me to
> attack Russia with him.
I wouldn't doubt the sincerity of his intentions, based on things I've
recently heard elsewhere. He may want agreement from you before he
commits. May not be such a bad thing - A/T alliances are pretty favorable
to the Sultan normally.
> Italy seems to be complaining that I'm quiet, but I haven't heard from
> him in days. Not sure what he's up to. Hopefully nothing with Russia. :-)
Heh.
> Hang tight over there. I'll let you know if FG says anything of interest.
Thanks. I'm particularly curious about Germany.
Good luck, & let me know if there's something you'd like me to mention to
one of your neighbors.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> >
> > I will have my hands full with him in at least the short term.
> Anything I can do let me know - dropping seeds, whatever.
thank you.
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> May you keep things interesting in the north while
> I try to survive!
Thanks. I've always had trouble playing Austria. I hope I'll learn
something from you.
> If you hear anything of interest,
> please let me know and I will do the same.
I certainly will. What do you hear from Germany?
Good luck.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> Thanks. I've always had trouble playing Austria. I hope I'll learn
> something from you.
Austria isn't my cup of tea either, so don't hesitate
to make suggestions.
> I certainly will. What do you hear from Germany?
Not much for the moment, but he did say he was in
good term with you. Is this how you would
characterize your relationsip?
Philippe
Message from England to England
From Turkey:
> Russia and I are bouncing in BLA, and Austria is doing everything
> he can to get me to attack Russia with him.
The bounce in BLA is important to me because it means there will be no MOS
- SEV. Therefore Russia should be in a position to defend WAR in F'01,
should we go forward with this Triple.
I am guessing that (a) Andy's frustration with Philippe and (b) Philippe's
solicitation of Jason are both the product of an early effort by Tony to
get Philippe to go straight for Russia. This would keep Philippe from
going along with likely Italian overtures against Turkey and coincide with
the German interest in a Western Triple.
An A/T would dovetail nicely with my hope for an EF stab of Germany in '01,
as it would mean I will eventually be able to roll into STP.
Erik's silence is making me alittle nervous but it is the weekend & perhaps
he has more time to play during the week. . . This whole Western Triple
thing could be smoke & mirrors to keep me out of the Channel, after all. .
. Meanwhile company left & I have a few minutes to handle this
correspondence.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> Austria isn't my cup of tea either, so don't hesitate
> to make suggestions.
Diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy. Look at your Turk, your German, your
Russian, your Italian. Work against the one who you trust the least & pray
the others do not jump on you. I tell you this because I read it. So far,
as Austria, nothing works for me. :-)
> > I certainly will. What do you hear from Germany?
>
> Not much for the moment, but he did say he was in
> good term with you. Is this how you would
> characterize your relationsip?
Yes I agree. I'm pleased to hear he said it - hopefully it means he won't
be jumping on me right out of the gate. He seems pretty experienced & has
offered some good advice.
In your theater, I believe there will be a bounce in the Black Sea.
Good luck!
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> Diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy. Look at your Turk, your German, your
> Russian, your Italian. Work against the one who you trust the least & pray
> the others do not jump on you. I tell you this because I read it. So far,
> as Austria, nothing works for me. :-)
Thanks, let's hope things go well for me in this game.
> Yes I agree. I'm pleased to hear he said it - hopefully it means he won't
> be jumping on me right out of the gate. He seems pretty experienced & has
> offered some good advice.
>
> In your theater, I believe there will be a bounce in the Black Sea.
What do you make of that bounce in the Black Sea?
If an RT alliance is in the making, I would like to know
about it as soon as possible, not that expect them to let
you in on it as it would also hurt you; but if you are
getting bad vibes about it, then don't hesitate to share.
I might not do anything about it right away, but it can
help put things in perspective. Also, since it's going well
between you and Germany, can I expect you to take
care of Russia in the north if needs be?
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> > In your theater, I believe there will be a bounce in the Black Sea.
>
> What do you make of that bounce in the Black Sea?
> If an RT alliance is in the making, I would like to know
> about it as soon as possible, not that expect them to let
> you in on it as it would also hurt you; but if you are
> getting bad vibes about it, then don't hesitate to share.
I don't have any particularly strong feelings about alliance structure in
the East, except for this: I /do not want/ an RT. You and I would be the
first victims - you are their target in common, and the RT calls for Russia
to become an Atlantic power - very bad news for me.
I do not think - yet - that Turkey has decided what he wants. He did
mention you were asking for cooperation against Russia & I encouraged him to
work with you. But I do not know what he will do. At this stage I think
(hope) that the bounce in Black Sea is just them trying to keep their
options open & protect themselves.
> I might not do anything about it right away, but it can
> help put things in perspective. Also, since it's going well
> between you and Germany, can I expect you to take
> care of Russia in the north if needs be?
Oh yes.
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Gentlemen -
I have put my moves in with wait set, for the Western Triple opening we
discussed.
Are we all in?
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I can tell you that Italy's repeated
> warnings about Tony sound a tad fishy,
> though as we've both said, he's
> probably just stirring up trouble.
I do not know whether Tony is indeed one of the best in the world or whether
Andy's expression that he is was sincere. But it is clear from my & our
correspondence with him that he is a big time player. And I would not be
surprised later to learn that Andy was sincere in his description, as for
his purposes there would have been little difference between "one of the
best in the world" and "one of the best I've played" or even "a total
cutthroat lying cretin." I do not think he lightly chose the words, one of
the best in the world. I think he meant it. Though he was probably
referring to ftf.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
Thanks Ben,
It's good to know I can count on you.
Philippe
Message from Germany to England and France
Count me in, I like the look of it. I like unusual openings. Its the only
decent proposal so far.
I run the most risk as I have to full frontal on Russia.
It will be interesting to see their faces in the fall. But I will want to
see frances approval
Message from England to Austria
> It's good to know I can count on you.
You bet. Try to figure out Austria for the both of us & grow. I'm looking
forward to working with you.
Ben
Message from England to England
Curious that Philippe does not acknowledge his solo with Austria. Something to bear in mind.
Ben
Message from England to all
Greetings one and all. Company's gone & the house is quiet, but tomorrow
will probably be pretty busy, so forgive me if response time lags.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
>I am all in favor of reasonable garrisons to protect our peaceful border.
>But the large deployment necessary to have the "minimum units" for the
>protection of Northern Russia may not be an efficient use of your units.
>Do the research, I encourage you, but you are talking about more units then
>dots. You would find you had no units to maintain the hotter fronts in
>your south. We will cross this bridge when we come to it, though.
Right. And I don't mean a huge deployment. I just wanted to point out that
to truly take out Germany, we'll need some fleets in the Bal/GoB area. I
would prefer them to be mine (as opposed to having you sail fleets there)
so would expect that I would build northern fleets as necessary to do so.
>I'm alittle reluctant to start
>assigning some dots to you, some to me, etc., as we do not know what
>outside forces will be exerted against us or our mutual target(s).
Agreed. The purpose of the comments wasn't to chisel in stone who gets what
dots, but to ferret out what might be big issues in terms of cooperation. I
don't want it to be a problem when I do come tell you I want to build a
fleet that you thought you'd have all the northern fleets. Exactly when a
fleet gets raised and where its force is aimed is something that will be
dictated by the situation.
I'm getting a lot of pressure to make a northern opening. I'm assuming
that's something you would prefer not to see. The only upside it has is
that it would certainly surprise Germany if I moved to Bal and advanced the
army to Swe! Let me know if you want to consider this maneuver. I think it
would be interesting, though risky for both of us -- it would make you
nervous about Nwy, and it would make me nervous about Germany (I'm not sure
I can trust him not to jump on me if I go north as he suggests).
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Right. And I don't mean a huge deployment. I just wanted to point out that
> to truly take out Germany, we'll need some fleets in the Bal/GoB area. I
> would prefer them to be mine (as opposed to having you sail fleets there)
> so would expect that I would build northern fleets as necessary to do so.
Things to discuss as we go - I will not argue about bridges we may never
reach. For heaven's sake, if you are blitzed by AT, I imagine it will be
quite some time before you & I need to discuss your desire to construct a
unt in STP, & if I am blitzed by FG, then I imagine a F STP/sc would not be
such an unwelcome sight. Really I hope enough said on this subject, for
now.
> >I'm alittle reluctant to start
> >assigning some dots to you, some to me, etc., as we do not know what
> >outside forces will be exerted against us or our mutual target(s).
>
> Agreed. The purpose of the comments wasn't to chisel in stone who gets
what
> dots, but to ferret out what might be big issues in terms of cooperation.
I
> don't want it to be a problem when I do come tell you I want to build a
> fleet that you thought you'd have all the northern fleets. Exactly when a
> fleet gets raised and where its force is aimed is something that will be
> dictated by the situation.
Yes.
> I'm getting a lot of pressure to make a northern opening. I'm assuming
> that's something you would prefer not to see. The only upside it has is
> that it would certainly surprise Germany if I moved to Bal and advanced
the
> army to Swe! Let me know if you want to consider this maneuver. I think it
> would be interesting, though risky for both of us -- it would make you
> nervous about Nwy, and it would make me nervous about Germany (I'm not
sure
> I can trust him not to jump on me if I go north as he suggests).
From whom are you getting pressure? The convoy to SWE is a nice maneuver
though I had thought it was principally anti-English, rather than anything
else, & if you wanted to harass Germany with a F BOT, A LVN, it might make
more sense to order to SWE & PRU. Whether you go to LVN is a separate
question, as you no doubt recall in C1 Eric Hunter opened WAR - LVN. As I
recall his reasoning was, he didn't know who he could trust & didn't want
to offend anyone. So go ahead, if you have for instance dmz'ed GAL, BOH,
etc., go to LVN. Going to STP is of course good only for annoying the
English, and will not help you should WAR be threatened.
Which is not out of the realm of possibilities, rather I expect you to be
attacked in the south & will be surprised if you are not. After all
Austria's one solo, in his six games, came as an Austria starting off by
attacking Russia. Bobbie on USGG. Still if you want to give Austria the
benefit of the doubt, go to LVN, so you can take RUM from UKR and SEV and
cover WAR from LVN.
Ben
p.s. For your edification I attach a press you sent me a few days ago.
Make of it what you will:
> Well Germany and Austria got back to me, and I must admit that the timing
> and content of their messages makes me suspicious. I'll let you imagine
the
> tactical details of why I say this, but overall their combined proposed
> moves would leave me in a really bad position should they cooperate to
take
> advantage of it.
>
> Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.
>
> More later.
Message from France to England
Ben:
> I do not know whether Tony is indeed one of the best in the
> world or whether Andy's expression that he is was sincere.
> But it is clear from my & our correspondence with him that he
> is a big time player.
I've heard rumblings from another source that there's some sort of GAI
agreement in the works, or at least that there's been a lot of talk of
it. This is consistent with the picture I'm getting from Austria and
Italy, though not Germany. Tony may be playing both sides, hoping that
Italy runs head first into me while you help him with Russia.
I think that as interesting as this triple might be, we may not be able
to trust Tony enought to pull it off. Are you getting the same sense?
In any case, I suppose the first two turns will probably work, and Tony,
even if he's working with AI, will probably play ball for a little
while. It's in his interest to keep us off his back while he dispatches
Russia. Still, we should plan now to lower the boom within a few
seasons.
Let me look at the map and the proposal that I sent out and get back to
you with specifics. Just wanted to get this message out before it got
too late.
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
>
> Count me in, I like the look of it. I like unusual openings.
> Its the only decent proposal so far. I run the most risk as I
> have to full frontal on Russia. It will be interesting to see
> their faces in the fall. But I will want to see frances approval
Of course you have my approval -- I suggested it. I'm glad to know that
we all find this interesting and worthwhile. I think we could make some
lightning gains from it.
Okay, given that we're all on board, I think we need to review our
information about other powers to maximize our chances of success. I can
tell what little I know: Austria and Italy seem to be friendly, Italy is
wary of Germany, Turkey is probably the odd man out in the east but
doesn't realize it.
Can you guys share anything you've learned? Tony, what's your
relationship with Austria like? Any indication where he's opening?
Erik
Message from Russia to England
Germany was pushing for a northern opening. You needn't worry about an army
in StP in Fall, that just won't be happening. At the same time, I won't
open to Pru in Spring, but I don't expect that's what you meant.
Sorry, the last message was a bit rambly. I need to learn never to write
right after a bad football game by the Raiders. :) My thinking is never
straight under those circumstances.
--- Tzarface
Message from Germany to England and France
My picture is the same. AI friendly and Turkey the odd man out. Although I must admit I know very little about Russia.
Message from England to England
> I need to learn never to write
> right after a bad football game by the Raiders. :)
Good lord a member of the Raider Nation. I wonder if he has a job.
Ladies & gentlemen, do not concede you are a Raiders fan in civilized
company. Now what am I supposed to say to him. Ordinarily I'd talk
football but with zealots that's asking for trouble. . .
;o)
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I've heard rumblings from another source that there's some sort of GAI
> agreement in the works, or at least that there's been a lot of talk of
> it. This is consistent with the picture I'm getting from Austria and
> Italy, though not Germany. Tony may be playing both sides, hoping that
> Italy runs head first into me while you help him with Russia.
Hopefully the AI will be turning east toward Turkey. Keep in mind Tony is
as nervous about Andy as Andy is about Tony, so I do not think Tony would
warn Andy that you will be coming. At least I hope so.
> I think that as interesting as this triple might be, we may not be able
> to trust Tony enought to pull it off. Are you getting the same sense?
Absolutely. I sent you a press a few days ago on this point, including a
way to turn the Western Triple to our advantage in F'01. I attached that
press at the bottom of this one.
> In any case, I suppose the first two turns will probably work, and Tony,
> even if he's working with AI, will probably play ball for a little
> while. It's in his interest to keep us off his back while he dispatches
> Russia. Still, we should plan now to lower the boom within a few
> seasons.
I think we should lower the boom in F'01. After F'01 it becomes much more
tricky.
> Let me look at the map and the proposal that I sent out and get back to
> you with specifics. Just wanted to get this message out before it got
> too late.
We have time, though as promised I am busy today.
Ben
attachment:
Erik -
> On hindsight, I should have gone over that proposal with you first, but
> what's done is done. I didn't think he'd ultimately go for the Par - Bur
> opening, and his response confirms it.
That's ok. Next time we can discuss it together but really I think this
suggestion was outstanding. See below.
> In any case, a WT, even if we let it go longer than a couple of seasons,
> still leaves us at an advantage. It's hard for Germany to build fleets and
> justify them in this situation, and that's good for us.
I suppose. My concern is that soon after S'02, I will have filled NWY,
SWE, and STP, and you will be trying to grind out dots against Andy, and
Tony will have his choice of either the southern Russian centers, or the
Austrian centers, to be followed soon enough by the other. I just think,
after this opening has gotten out of the gate, it favors Germany. So long
term I do not know how well this works for us, though if we decide to try
to make it work I will work harder at justifying it to myself. ;-) Also
you do not want to find yourself between Tony & the remnants of Andy. But
see below.
> Let me know what you think.
Two things. First of all Tony has not actually committed yet. He said he
wanted to see what I thought, & I said I was in, but he has not said he
would do it yet. Not that we should harp on it; I'm just pointing that out.
Second. Because of the drawbacks for us as we push into '02 and beyond,
let me point out an alternate set of orders for Fall '01:
England
EDI - NTH - HOL
NWG - NWY
France
GAS - BUR
PIE - TYR
MAO - SPA/sc
This would restrict you to one build but if successful would give you *two*
units against an undefended MUN in S '02, and Germany would only be getting
one build as well. We would crush him. By the end of '02 we should have
two to three builds each with open lanes to the east in front of us.
The key would be getting Andy not to freak out as you passed from PIE -
TYR. I think we could do it, diplomatically, & I would try to exert some
influence there too to help you out. Perhaps rather than involve him now,
just try to smooth things over in the fall after you've entered PIE in the
spring. I'll leave it to you - you know him better than I do.
Thoughts?
Ben
End of message.
Message from England to France and Germany
> My picture is the same. AI friendly and Turkey the odd man out.
> Although I must admit I know very little about Russia.
I can contribute that I expect a bounce in the Black Sea. For what it's
worth.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Germany was pushing for a northern opening. You needn't worry about an
army
> in StP in Fall, that just won't be happening. At the same time, I won't
> open to Pru in Spring, but I don't expect that's what you meant.
No, I meant LVN. I imagine Germany was hoping for the error MOS - STP,
which I am glad to hear is off the table.
> Sorry, the last message was a bit rambly. I need to learn never to write
> right after a bad football game by the Raiders. :) My thinking is never
> straight under those circumstances.
What's wrong with blowing a 15 point halftime lead? And losing? Good lord
you must have had a rough few weeks. ;-)
Ben
Message from Germany to England and France
I do now understand that AI are having a little disagreement on the spring moves concerning VEN.
Austria wants to move TRI - VEN no matter what. This is only good news for us as this limits Italys orders.
This also means that he cant move to PIE which fits our plan fine. But there again I couldnt see him moving there anyway. I have a DMZ agreement on TYR for what its worth in S1901M.
I also hear that Russia and Austria are fine tuning details on GAL. Maybe no bounce or agreed bounce.
If its no bounce then thats either bad news for Turkey or England. Either way it still doesnt interfere with our plan. My moves are in too with set wait.
Message from France to England
> Hopefully the AI will be turning east toward Turkey. Keep in mind Tony
> is
> as nervous about Andy as Andy is about Tony, so I do not think Tony
> would
> warn Andy that you will be coming. At least I hope so.
Hopefully. Assuming Tony and Andy aren't playing their mutual concern for
one another up in an attempt to create a smokescreen, we can perhaps use
it to our advantage. I'm going to play the move to Piedmont off as a step
taken out of Tony's constant warnings to me of an impending attack from
Italy. If you should happen to chat with Italy, it might be a good idea to
mention that Tony is asking you to convince me to attack Andy, just so the
story has some weight when I tell it later.
> Absolutely. I sent you a press a few days ago on this point, including
> a
> way to turn the Western Triple to our advantage in F'01. I attached
> that
> press at the bottom of this one.
Yes, I saw and read through this after I'd sent this mail. I'll respond
down below.
> I think we should lower the boom in F'01. After F'01 it becomes much
> more
> tricky.
If, however, we see that Tony is following through and we've got some shot
at northern / southern gains, we might want to consider letting it go
longer. I know it gets trickier, but I think we should at least be willing
to be flexible. I will look at that article more today and try to find
another, later point in the strategy to go for a German attack.
In general, though, I think you're right. Given Tony's rep, we should plan
on using this as a set-up for his fall.
> Two things. First of all Tony has not actually committed yet. He said he
> wanted to see what I thought, & I said I was in, but he has not said he
> would do it yet. Not that we should harp on it; I'm just pointing that
> out.
I think he's pretty clearly in now. Has he confirmed his moves with us yet?
>
> Second. Because of the drawbacks for us as we push into '02 and beyond,
> let me point out an alternate set of orders for Fall '01:
> England
> EDI - NTH - HOL
> NWG - NWY
> France
> GAS - BUR
> PIE - TYR
> MAO - SPA/sc
This sounds tentatively good, but let me look at the map before I commit
to it. In any case, our orders for '01 are set.
Once you get two builds, what are you going to do with them? A Lon and F
Edi? And where do we proceed once we've stabbed? I'll take a stab at
Munich while you press on for Kiel and Denmark; I can also build A Par and
head for an easy grab of Bel in Fall of 02. With Nth - Hel, Hol - Kiel and
Lon - Nth, you should be in a position to grab one of Kiel or Denmark in
02. This is all planning a little far in advance, but it's good to have an
idea of where we're heading.
We need to make sure that Russia has two units in or around Warsaw after
S01 to prevent Germany from taking it, but I think I can do that without
tipping our hand too much -- I've got a decent rapport with Russia, and I
can just warn him to watch for a German assault, which I think he's
concerned about anyway.
> The key would be getting Andy not to freak out as you passed from PIE -
> TYR. I think we could do it, diplomatically, & I would try to exert some
> influence there too to help you out. Perhaps rather than involve him
> now,
> just try to smooth things over in the fall after you've entered PIE in
> the
> spring. I'll leave it to you - you know him better than I do.
>
As I said before, I think Andy and I have enough of a history that,
combined with accusations of German meddling, I can probably explain it
away and get access to Tyr. The only thing that could upset this plan, as
I said, is if Andy and Tony are, in fact, in cahoots and using the "fear
of each other" factor purely deceptively. I'm not really concerned about
that, though. I think the mutual wariness is real.
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
FYI, I'm writing a press to Germany in which I talk about how England is
always the better-off party in the Western Triple, and about he and I are
going to need to keep an eye on you starting in '02. I want him to think
there's a little animosity brewing between us so that there's less
potential suspicion that he's being set up for a fall.
Just wanted you to be aware of this in case it gets back to you through
him or another source.
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
So let me just confirm the moves for S01:
England:
F Edi - Nwg
F Lon - Nth
A Lvp - Yor (or are you heading to Edi instead?)
France:
F Bre - Mao
A Par - Gas
A Mar - Pie
Germany:
F Kiel - Den
A Ber - Pru
A Mun - Sil
I should also note that I've been telling other powers that the extent of
our negotiations has been a deal surrounding the disposition of Belgium:
if anyone asks, we should all stick to the story that we've agreed to let
England take Belgium with a fleet. Details beyond that are up to each of
you. I'm also telling people that I've had friendly and lengthy but
ultimately non-commital discussions with both of you.
Message from Russia to England
> > I need to learn never to write
> > right after a bad football game by the Raiders. :) My thinking is never
> > straight under those circumstances.
>
>What's wrong with blowing a 15 point halftime lead? And losing? Good lord
>you must have had a rough few weeks. ;-)
Well I was at the game last week (vs. San Diego) which was annoying
but ended well, so I thought things were going to get better. Of
course, I'm also a Giants (baseball) fan, so yes, it has been just a
lovely time in sports-land here!
--- Tzarface
Message from England to France
> We need to make sure that Russia has two units in or around Warsaw after
> S01 to prevent Germany from taking it, but I think I can do that without
> tipping our hand too much -- I've got a decent rapport with Russia, and I
> can just warn him to watch for a German assault, which I think he's
> concerned about anyway.
***Don't do this if you haven't****
I've already pushed that envelope as far as I can & i don't want to alert
the east to an '01 WT. I hope it's not too late.
Will write more soon.
Ben
Message from France to England
>
> I've already pushed that envelope as far as I can & i don't want to
> alert
> the east to an '01 WT. I hope it's not too late.
>
I haven't said anything specific. Russia's worried about a central
alliance. I commented that such an alliance seemed possible, and
recommended that he keep a unit in or around Warsaw to defend against it.
I didn't realize you were doing the same thing. I won't push the issue.
I am beginning to think that Tony's actually managed to become part of a
GAI *and* a Western Triple. They're not necessarily incompatible, and they
put him in an excellent position. As such, I think the only people who
might be concerned about a Western triple are Russia and Turkey. Turkey's
being too passive, as far as I can tell, for an RT alliance to pop up. I'm
hoping that GAI is the focus of Russia's concern.
Should one of us switch gears and downplay the German threat? May not be
such a good idea. Let's just drop it and hope for the best. I think
Russia's already planning conservative play.
Erik
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> Well I was at the game last week (vs. San Diego) which was annoying
> but ended well, so I thought things were going to get better. Of
> course, I'm also a Giants (baseball) fan, so yes, it has been just a
> lovely time in sports-land here!
A frustrating couple of years, even. But I don't understand - you are a
fan of the Oakland Raiders but not Oakland A's, and the San Francisco
Giants but not the San Francisco 49'ers?
I am closely familiar with some Raider frustration in recent years,
incidentally. I am from Baltimore. Glad to see Rich Gannon's shoulder's
recovered. . .
[ducks]
Ben
Message from Germany to England and France
Thats what it says on the site, and the site is easy to follow. So yes I can
cofirm them. Set wait has also been done.
Message from England to France and Germany
> So let me just confirm the moves for S01:
>
> England:
> F Edi - Nwg
> F Lon - Nth
> A Lvp - Yor (or are you heading to Edi instead?)
I'd set EDI, but YOR makes more sense, so I'll switch it.
>
> France:
> F Bre - Mao
> A Par - Gas
> A Mar - Pie
>
> Germany:
> F Kiel - Den
> A Ber - Pru
> A Mun - Sil
>
> I should also note that I've been telling other powers that the extent of
> our negotiations has been a deal surrounding the disposition of Belgium:
> if anyone asks, we should all stick to the story that we've agreed to let
> England take Belgium with a fleet. Details beyond that are up to each of
> you. I'm also telling people that I've had friendly and lengthy but
> ultimately non-commital discussions with both of you.
Ok, my orders are in. I am setting no wait.
Ben
Message from England to England
Prediction for Spring '01:
England:
LVP - YOR
EDI - NWG
LON - NTH
This one was tricky!
France:
F Bre - Mao
A Par - Gas
A Mar - Pie
This could all have been an elaborate trick to get me to leave ENG exposed.
But I doubt it.
Germany:
F Kiel - Den
A Ber - Pru
A Mun - Sil
The analysis I sent France was sincere. I think Tony and Andy justifiably
consider each other the most dangerous players on the map. The Western
Triple if actually done would limit Italian growth while Germany spread
across the stalemate line. Beautiful thing, for him.
Turkey:
CON - BUL
ANK - BLA
SMY h
My guess is, an RT is in the works. Lots will change in S'01 and then lots
more in F'01, if Erik & I follow through against Germany. Hopefully we
will be able to get an AI pushing East, after we put Germany on his heels.
Austria:
VIE - GAL
BUD - SER
TRI - VEN
I should be so lucky.
Italy:
VEN h
ROM - NAP
NAP - ION
I do not think Andy will want to hold but this conservative opening will
allow him to demonstrate some faithfulness to Austria while putting himself
in a position to follow through. More radical would be VEN - PIE, ROM -
VEN, but that limits eastward expansion agreements & probably is a needless
violation of a dmz.
Russia:
WAR - GAL
MOS - UKR
STP - BOT
SEV - BLA
After all the hemming & hawing I think he will play conservatively.
We will see. . .
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I haven't said anything specific. Russia's worried about a central
> alliance. I commented that such an alliance seemed possible, and
> recommended that he keep a unit in or around Warsaw to defend against it.
> I didn't realize you were doing the same thing. I won't push the issue.
Ok. It sounds like we're on cruise control for the spring, then.
> I am beginning to think that Tony's actually managed to become part of a
> GAI *and* a Western Triple. They're not necessarily incompatible, and they
> put him in an excellent position. As such, I think the only people who
> might be concerned about a Western triple are Russia and Turkey. Turkey's
> being too passive, as far as I can tell, for an RT alliance to pop up. I'm
> hoping that GAI is the focus of Russia's concern.
This is what I think. Austria is in Germany's hip pocket. I infer this
from a couple of things, not the least of which is Germany's comment that
Austria is insisting on TRI - VEN. I am guessing if Tony did not suggest
that himself he certainly did nothing to discourage it. No doubt Tony and
Andy each figure that with the other gone, the rest of us are chopped
liver. Other factors too but that's a big one.
If Austria is in Germany's hip pocket then you can bet that there will be
an Austrian attack against Russia: move to GAL, etc.
> Should one of us switch gears and downplay the German threat? May not be
> such a good idea. Let's just drop it and hope for the best. I think
> Russia's already planning conservative play.
I've pretty much dropped everything & am waiting for the moves to process.
Italy will not want a two front war. My guess is, with Austria pissing him
off, he will want to head east just to stay in position to deal with
Austria, even if he's starting after Turkey. Who knows. His spring is
constrained by TRI - VEN.
Andy is not really an alliance player. I think a GAI is pretty much the
same as a GA, with Andy using it to his profit for as long as it serves him.
Finally, I want to point out that the DMZ TYR and TRI - VEN are godsends
for our effort to sneak MAR around to TYR.
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
Gentlemen,
I cannot express strongly enough the need for the 2 of you to work
together against Germany. He is extremely strong, and has at least on
other power in his pocket.
I have Russia good with the idea that Germany must be hemmed also,
so you should be in decent shape there.
Get a plan together and then take him down.
Andy
Message from Italy to England and France
> Who does Tony have "in his pocket?" And if Tony's a major threat, are you
> planning to move to Tyrolia, or are you counting on Russia, England and I
> to deal with him so you can carry on without worrying about him?
Erik....you ask some lovely questions....
the person in his pocket is Austria. And no I dont expect the 3 of you to
carry the load, but I have this issue with Austria. Germany has already
said that if anyone moves to Tyrolia he will attack them.
> Just curious why you're so obsessed with our working together against him.
Because he is the best player at the board, and if not kept in check he
will have the 2 of you fighting in about 20 seconds, he already has at
least one guy in his pocket and I have no clue if Turkey is as well.
And you 2 have much better access to him.....If the Austrian and the
Turk attack me out of the gate, I want the Russian on my side.
He needs to go away, and since I am not in direct contact with him, I cant
do it.
Andy
Message from Germany to England and France
I have told Austria that France and I are to bounce in BUR, he wanted to
know if my unit was remaining in MUN.
So if he decides somehow to verify it with either of you in a roundabout way
then you can confirm it.
Message from Germany to England and France
I am trying to find out the relationship between austria and Russia and to
some extent Turkey and Italy.
I have told the austrian that I am trying to get the russian go north, just
to see if this filters back somehow. If russia approaches england then we
know where austria stands.
Message from France to England and Italy
>
> Erik....you ask some lovely questions....
>
And you provide some lovely answers. I have to say, there's certainly been
some evidence of a GA relationship, but not to the extent that you've
stated. You must have a line on some info that I don't have.
> the person in his pocket is Austria. And no I dont expect the 3 of you
> to
> carry the load, but I have this issue with Austria.
What is the issue? Are you expecting an attack? Are you being forced to
bounce? If it's a bounce, what's the big deal?
>
> And you 2 have much better access to him.....If the Austrian and the
> Turk attack me out of the gate, I want the Russian on my side.
>
I wish I could give you more info on the Turk, but he hasn't exactly been
talkative, even to somebody as far from his sphere of influence as me. I
think England's had the same experience.
> He needs to go away, and since I am not in direct contact with him, I
> cant
> do it.
Understood. Thanks for providing the info you've provided so far. I'm sure
England and I will discuss in more detail. We're both aware of Tony's
strength as a player.
Erik
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Get a plan together
Be patient. Trust me.
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Gentlemen -
Russia indeed told me he was being "pressured" to open north.
Anyway I've now set nowait. Let's get it on!
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
> And you provide some lovely answers. I have to say, there's certainly been
> some evidence of a GA relationship, but not to the extent that you've
> stated. You must have a line on some info that I don't have.
Well....they want me to be thier ally, but dont want to give me any
latitude to do anything.
> > the person in his pocket is Austria. And no I dont expect the 3 of you
> > to
> > carry the load, but I have this issue with Austria.
>
> What is the issue? Are you expecting an attack? Are you being forced to
> bounce? If it's a bounce, what's the big deal?
For defensive reasons Austria is attacking Venice...just in case I thought
about moving on him, his ally.
He claims to trust me completely, but insists on moving Tri - Ven in S01'
> Understood. Thanks for providing the info you've provided so far. I'm sure
> England and I will discuss in more detail. We're both aware of Tony's
> strength as a player.
>
No problem. I will help whereever I can.
Message from France to England
Did that "northern push" comment truly make its way back to you through
Russia? If so, what do you make of it? Do you think Tony instructed
Austria to leak the info to Russia?
I'm not entirely convinced that Austria is as entirely in Germany's employ
as Andy thinks. I am fairly certain, however, that Austria is making
Andy's life difficult, and that the move to Pie will succeed and then be
able to move to Tyr, as you pointed out. This looks good.
Erik
Message from Russia to England
>But I don't understand - you are a fan of the Oakland Raiders but
>not Oakland A's, and the San Francisco Giants but not the San
>Francisco 49'ers?
It's just a symptom of my larger emotional problems. :)
Short life story version relevant to this point: I was an army brat
in my wee years, family moved to SF, and I watched my first football
game. It was the Raiders vs. the Steelers. Kid-logic being what it
is, I decided I liked the Raiders better because they had the cooler
logo. I only later found that they were a local team. The year that
happened makes me think that I must have been watching the game that
ended with the Immaculate Reception, but I really don't remember the
details that well.
I was much older when I first got interested in baseball, and by then
we were established in SF. So I went with the Giants. I don't dislike
the A's, but I'm a fair weather fan. I was a Niner's fan when they
were a bad team, and was a big fan when they got Montana. Ironically
as they got better (through the late 80's-early 90's) I got less and
less supportive of them. Probably envious, if you recall the
performance of the Raiders over that same time frame.
>I am closely familiar with some Raider frustration in recent
>years,incidentally. I am from Baltimore. Glad to see Rich Gannon's
>shoulder's recovered. . .
More galling is that it was Shannon Sharpe who scored the crucial TD!
I thought we were finally through with him when he left Denver. But
don't worry, my frustration with Baltimore is way low on the list.
I'm actually more upset about the "fumble that wasn't" from '77 when
Denver beat the Raiders in the playoffs.
At least in Baltimore we lost because we were outplayed. Now, mention
"tuck", and we've got a whole other problem! :)
--- Tzarface
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Did that "northern push" comment truly make its way back to you through
> Russia? If so, what do you make of it? Do you think Tony instructed
> Austria to leak the info to Russia?
Heh. What actually happened was, Russia told me *Germany* was pushing to
get him to open North. Who knows what to believe, anyway. Russia's been
alittle annoying too, lately.
> I'm not entirely convinced that Austria is as entirely in Germany's employ
> as Andy thinks. I am fairly certain, however, that Austria is making
> Andy's life difficult, and that the move to Pie will succeed and then be
> able to move to Tyr, as you pointed out. This looks good.
I'm not worried about Italy, tactically. I think a move to PIE is
seriously unlikely. I'm inclined to believe the TRI - VEN thing, it's
making me laugh, I also think Austria is feeling the influence of Germany.
That said, it looks like Germany may be keeping his anti-Russian opening a
*secret* from Austria, which I hadn't really expected, which is fine too.
I am very pleased overall with the way our diplomacy has gone this spring.
Ben
Message from England to France and Italy
Gentlemen -
For what it's worth I think Austria may be firmly under German control.
It would certainly explain his insistence on the A/I alliance beginning
with the - ahem - novelty TRI - VEN. Kind of reminds me of C1, actually,
Andy.
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
>
> Gentlemen -
> For what it's worth I think Austria may be firmly under German control.
>
> It would certainly explain his insistence on the A/I alliance beginning
> with the - ahem - novelty TRI - VEN. Kind of reminds me of C1, actually,
> Andy.
>
Ben, were you in C1
Message from England to France and Italy
> > It would certainly explain his insistence on the A/I alliance beginning
> > with the - ahem - novelty TRI - VEN. Kind of reminds me of C1,
actually,
> > Andy.
> >
> Ben, were you in C1
I was observing. You played an outstanding game.
Message from Italy to England and France
> > > It would certainly explain his insistence on the A/I alliance beginning
> > > with the - ahem - novelty TRI - VEN. Kind of reminds me of C1,
> actually,
> > > Andy.
> > >
> > Ben, were you in C1
>
> I was observing. You played an outstanding game.
>
Thank you..
Message from France to England
> Heh. What actually happened was, Russia told me *Germany*
> was pushing to get him to open North. Who knows what to
> believe, anyway. Russia's been alittle annoying too, lately.
>
Yes. I'm sure Germany would like to see your path as hampered as much as
he'd like to see Italy hamper mine. Good thing Austria is throwing a
wrench into that plan.
I think Russia is very worried about a hostile GAI. He will certainly be
frightened by the moves this season, but if we play it right, we can
hopefully calm him down, get him working against Germany, and still keep
Turkey from getting too friendly with him.
> I'm not worried about Italy, tactically. I think a move to
> PIE is seriously unlikely. I'm inclined to believe the TRI -
> VEN thing, it's making me laugh, I also think Austria is
> feeling the influence of Germany. That said, it looks like
> Germany may be keeping his anti-Russian opening a
> *secret* from Austria, which I hadn't really expected, which
> is fine too.
I think Germany's keeping it secret while doing everything possible to
ensure that Austria unwittingly cooperates. I'll bet we see two separate
Austrian bounces, thereby wasting the time of two of Germany's neighbors
-- Austria and Russia -- and keeping Italy from doing much of an
opening. Clever.
> I am very pleased overall with the way our diplomacy has gone
> this spring.
>
As am I. I'm hoping that Germany feels very confident in his ability to
play both sides of the board. We've got to make sure those feelings of
confidence continue.
More tomorrow. Let me know if you hear anything unexpected.
Erik
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> >But I don't understand - you are a fan of the Oakland Raiders but
> >not Oakland A's, and the San Francisco Giants but not the San
> >Francisco 49'ers?
>
> It's just a symptom of my larger emotional problems. :)
You know, you seem pretty together, for a Raiders fan. ;o)
> Short life story version relevant to this point: I was an army brat
> in my wee years, family moved to SF, and I watched my first football
> game. It was the Raiders vs. the Steelers. Kid-logic being what it
> is, I decided I liked the Raiders better because they had the cooler
> logo. I only later found that they were a local team. The year that
> happened makes me think that I must have been watching the game that
> ended with the Immaculate Reception, but I really don't remember the
> details that well.
This part I understand completely. I hope you rejoice with me when the
Steelers lose.
> I was much older when I first got interested in baseball, and by then
> we were established in SF. So I went with the Giants. I don't dislike
> the A's, but I'm a fair weather fan. I was a Niner's fan when they
> were a bad team, and was a big fan when they got Montana. Ironically
> as they got better (through the late 80's-early 90's) I got less and
> less supportive of them. Probably envious, if you recall the
> performance of the Raiders over that same time frame.
You did not say "Thank you for Sir Sidney Ponson." I don't know how a
person can root for a team - the A's - who had excellent seats available *at
game time yesterday* for Boston Red Sox fans walking up, to buy at the box
office. I heard a local radio personality say at five minutes to game time
yesterday he bought from the box office at the stadium 2 seats 15 rows up
from the 3d base bag. Unbelievable. Of course the Raiders have similar
problems, but not as bad.
> >I am closely familiar with some Raider frustration in recent
> >years,incidentally. I am from Baltimore. Glad to see Rich Gannon's
> >shoulder's recovered. . .
>
> More galling is that it was Shannon Sharpe who scored the crucial TD!
> I thought we were finally through with him when he left Denver. But
> don't worry, my frustration with Baltimore is way low on the list.
> I'm actually more upset about the "fumble that wasn't" from '77 when
> Denver beat the Raiders in the playoffs.
I am pleased to hear it, in the sense that I worry less about next time I
fly into Oakland. I hope the other members of the Raider Nation have put it
behind them too.
> At least in Baltimore we lost because we were outplayed. Now, mention
> "tuck", and we've got a whole other problem! :)
Yeah, that was something else. That should have been your year. . .
Any idea who we're waiting for? What's up with GAL?
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Any idea what we're waiting for?
*yawn*
Ben
Message from Germany to England
No Ben I can only assume that the eastern powers havent got their act sorted
out yet.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> No Ben I can only assume that the eastern powers
> havent got their act sorted out yet.
Sigh. I suppose I knew that. Just bored. I guess it's too much to ask for S'01 to process before the deadline. . .
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
Do you mind if I ask, what did you decide to do, vis a vis Austria? I hear
he's been a pain in the behind for Italy, which may make him a good ally for
you. On the other hand, as far as I know he's being a pain in the butt for
you, too.
Just curious, as we wait for the moves to process.
Ben
Message from France to England
Ben:
Russia asked me point blank if Germany and I were bouncing in Burgundy. I
didn't want to lie, as we'll need Russia to go after Germany and apply
pressure when we attack from the west. I told him that Germany and I had
discussed it and that Germany was heavily in favor of it, but that I'd
rather not and was trying to talk Germany out of it. I also tried to steer
the discussion toward a defense against Austria, which I think would be
perfect for our plans -- Germany can still push up into Lvn and leave
Munich exposed, but Russia's not completely blindsided and still maintains
some trust in us.
That's the story if he comes around confirming it.
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
Sure enough, Germany came asking about the bounce in Burgundy. All of your
information bait is catching fish, Tony. I think our assault will go
splendidly.
Wish we knew what Turkey was up to, though.
Erik
Message from England to France and Germany
Tony -
> Sure enough, Germany came asking about the bounce in
> Burgundy. All of your
> information bait is catching fish, Tony. I think our assault will go
> splendidly.
Would you remind me again what we learn from all this, Tony?
> Wish we knew what Turkey was up to, though.
I have a press in to him & will let you guys know what he has in mind, when
I hear from him.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Russia asked me point blank if Germany and I were bouncing in
> Burgundy. I didn't want to lie, as we'll need Russia to go
> after Germany and apply pressure when we attack from the west.
I agree with your analysis.
> I told him that Germany and I had discussed it and that Germany
> was heavily in favor of it, but that I'd rather not and was
> trying to talk Germany out of it. I also tried to steer the
> discussion toward a defense against Austria, which I think
> would be perfect for our plans -- Germany can still push up
> into Lvn and leave Munich exposed, but Russia's not completely
> blindsided and still maintains some trust in us.
I think your answer was excellent & serves our purpose. Of course I do not
think we need a *strong* Russia, with whom we would need to share dots.
Really all we need is a Russia who does not collapse like a house of cards.
. .
> That's the story if he comes around confirming it.
Thanks. I am alittle surprised noone's asked me about BEL, but that's the
truth of it.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
Hi Ben,
I'm hearing rumours of RT, and even ER.
Do you know what this is all about?
Philippe
Message from Germany to England and France
Well I am not sure who erik meant when he said germany came asking about the
bounce in BUR.
I am assuming he means austria or italy.
Italy thinks AF are after him. I think we are the only ones who seem to have
a solid agreement.
The only thing I dont hear of is the ER relation. Maybe you are buttering
him up ;-)
Message from France to England and Germany
> Well I am not sure who erik meant when he said germany came asking about
> the
> bounce in BUR.
> I am assuming he means austria or italy.
Sorry, typo. It was actually *Russia* that asked.
Erik
Message from Germany to England and France
Well if it was Russia then that may point to a possible Russian move on me
or england. That would at worst make me bounce in either sil or pru. I will
still be able to bounce him in Sweden so we would still come out on top.
Its not that Russia is hoping for a GR against England which would be the
case if I was against france. So I wonder what and more important with whom
he will share this information.
An anti English or anti german opening by russia does not effect our plans.
If at worst he pushes mos to stp then england is still strong enough to take
norway with 2 units.
I will mention this inquiry into BUR to Russia to see how he reacts ;-)
Message from Germany to all
OK, so here it is. MUN - BUR (agreed bounce with France), KIE - DEN (on
request), BER - KIE. Pretty standard opening I would say. Anyone else like
to share?
Message from France to England
What's up with that broadcast? Is he a.) essentially allowing himself to
be viewed as a liar by every person on the board or b.) really planning
that set of moves and setting us up as patsies (and with an army in
Burgundy, to boot)? This doesn't bode well. We need to decide whether or
not to reverse course and order an all-out assault in the first turn.
Erik
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> I'm hearing rumours of RT, and even ER.
> Do you know what this is all about?
Well, I think you would know more about RT then I would. As you know I
encouraged Turkey to work with you against Russia. Earlier I sent him a
note asking what he decided but he has not responded yet. I had hoped for
an AT and I still do, but I have no special knowledge one way or the other.
As to an ER, we have made the usual arrangements for the northern
provinces, and we have discussed Germany alittle bit. Nothing exciting - I
have found our Russian to be a tight-lipped fellow.
What of GAL? If you are indeed worried about an RT then I imagine you will
be going there, whether you tell Russia ahead of time or not. . .
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> What's up with that broadcast? Is he a.) essentially allowing himself to
> be viewed as a liar by every person on the board or b.) really planning
> that set of moves and setting us up as patsies (and with an army in
> Burgundy, to boot)? This doesn't bode well. We need to decide whether or
> not to reverse course and order an all-out assault in the first turn.
Good questions. I can only assume he is lying to everyone else. Because
if he was planning on attacking you, he would want my help, and he hasn't
said anything to me. Take a deep breath - things are still going well.
Even if he were to attack you, your position would be solid, defensively,
and god knows I don't want him around, so he'd have both of us as enemies
and nothing to show for it, positionally.
I'm setting wait again. I will write back soon - I'm going fishing for
information. Be patient. ;-)
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Russian move on Germany or me says one thing to me, and that begins with a
J and rhymes with puggernaut.
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy
I received some press from Austria that makes him out to be more uncertain
than we thought. I think in time he will want to work with you.
I am also hearing that you are worried about an attack from France.
Erik and I are mindful of the danger posed by Tony. I - we - have a plan.
But if you go to PIE then Erik's head will explode and that would be bad.
If you insist on going to PIE I can work with that. But I need to know
ahead of time.
Let me know. Ok?
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> But if you go to PIE then Erik's head will explode and that would be bad.
> If you insist on going to PIE I can work with that. But I need to know
> ahead of time.
There is no way I am going to Piedmont....if Erik does I am screwed, blued
and tatttooed......but I dont suspect he wants to.
What is your plan for Tony
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> > But if you go to PIE then Erik's head will explode and that would be
bad.
> > If you insist on going to PIE I can work with that. But I need to know
> > ahead of time.
>
> There is no way I am going to Piedmont....if Erik does I am screwed, blued
> and tatttooed......but I dont suspect he wants to.
>
> What is your plan for Tony
I don't want to be in a position where it screws up & I have to wonder. If
you know what I mean.
So I'm not going to tell you. I think you understand.
And I was serious about Austria. If you keep whispering in his ear you may
persuade him of an RT - which I am inclined to think is real anyway - and
if you want I will try to get him to go for GRE instead of TRI - VEN. Let
me know if that's what you want; I don't want to interfere with your play
in the East.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> > What is your plan for Tony
> I don't want to be in a position where it screws up & I have to wonder. If
> you know what I mean.
I understand completely.
>
> And I was serious about Austria. If you keep whispering in his ear you may
> persuade him of an RT - which I am inclined to think is real anyway - and
> if you want I will try to get him to go for GRE instead of TRI - VEN. Let
> me know if that's what you want; I don't want to interfere with your play
> in the East.
He is already going for greece....he is not going to Galacia at all....he
is moving everything south so that he can hedgehog me and still get two
builds.
Message from Turkey to England
Good to hear from you.
The plan, which I trustyou'll keep to yourself, is to attack Russia off
the bat with Austria, then take out Austria with Italy. Hopefully, I'll
end up with 8-10 centers, and one flank completely anchored on the edge
of the board.
He pressed me quite strongly for a plan, so I'll work with him until I
need to go through him.
jason
Message from England to Italy
Andy
> > > What is your plan for Tony
> > I don't want to be in a position where it screws up & I have to wonder.
If
> > you know what I mean.
>
> I understand completely.
I knew you would. Last favor on this point, and I figure you understood
this too - let Erik carry on with you as he has been. Humor him.
> > And I was serious about Austria. If you keep whispering in his ear you
may
> > persuade him of an RT - which I am inclined to think is real anyway -
and
> > if you want I will try to get him to go for GRE instead of TRI - VEN.
Let
> > me know if that's what you want; I don't want to interfere with your
play
> > in the East.
>
> He is already going for greece....he is not going to Galacia at all....he
> is moving everything south so that he can hedgehog me and still get two
> builds.
He's nuts. Do you think I'm wrong about an RT? He's trying to get you
both killed. I just suggested he go to GAL - I'll press him harder on the
point when I get a chance.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
I just heard you are ordering TRI - VEN. I want to urge you to think twice
about this, if it's true. I have already written the Observers that I
think there is a Juggernaut forming & now I'm warning you. If I am right
then you will very much need a good Italian ally. If I am wrong - which I
doubt - then you will have gained an Italian ally at no cost to yourself.
You know, you have told Andy you will be moving TRI - VEN. It doesn't mean
you now have to *do* it, whether you tell him in advance or not.
Your call.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> > I understand completely.
> I knew you would. Last favor on this point, and I figure you understood
> this too - let Erik carry on with you as he has been. Humor him.
I dont understand what you mean.
> > > And I was serious about Austria. If you keep whispering in his ear you
> may
> > > persuade him of an RT - which I am inclined to think is real anyway -
> and
> > > if you want I will try to get him to go for GRE instead of TRI - VEN.
> Let
> > > me know if that's what you want; I don't want to interfere with your
> play
> > > in the East.
> >
> > He is already going for greece....he is not going to Galacia at all....he
> > is moving everything south so that he can hedgehog me and still get two
> > builds.
> He's nuts. Do you think I'm wrong about an RT? He's trying to get you
> both killed. I just suggested he go to GAL - I'll press him harder on the
> point when I get a chance.
I know that, but we shall see.
Message from England to Turkey
Sultan -
> The plan, which I trustyou'll keep to yourself, is to attack Russia off
> the bat with Austria, then take out Austria with Italy. Hopefully, I'll
> end up with 8-10 centers, and one flank completely anchored on the edge
> of the board.
I am ecstatic about your plan. I could not, as England, ask for more from
Turkey. I will certainly keep it to myself and aid you where I can.
> He pressed me quite strongly for a plan, so I'll work with him until I
> need to go through him.
Outstanding. Just let me know what to do.
Ben
Message from England to Italy
> > > I understand completely.
> > I knew you would. Last favor on this point, and I figure you understood
> > this too - let Erik carry on with you as he has been. Humor him.
>
> I dont understand what you mean.
Just don't let him know that you & I had even this much of a conversation
on the subject of Tony. That's all.
Now go to sleep.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
Now I just got *another* note - this one from Turkey - & I'm not so sure
about the RT. I just can't get a fix on Russia, I guess. Anyway Turkey
told me awhile ago that you were pressing him to get an AT going against
Russia, & he still seems uncertain about Russia, so I hope you can persuade
him to work with you.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
I've been fishing & I'm satisfied everything is in order. I've
corresponded with some of the eastern powers - received recent notes from
Austria, Turkey, & Italy - & I like what I'm hearing. Let's stick with
Plan A - Western Triple S'01, Germany stab F'01.
Ok?
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
From what I hear from Italy, I'm guessing MAR - PIE will succeed.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
Hi Ben,
> note asking what he decided but he has not responded yet. I had hoped for
> an AT and I still do, but I have no special knowledge one way or the other.
> about this, if it's true. I have already written the Observers that I
> think there is a Juggernaut forming & now I'm warning you. If I am right
> Now I just got *another* note - this one from Turkey - & I'm not so sure
> about the RT. I just can't get a fix on Russia, I guess. Anyway Turkey
> told me awhile ago that you were pressing him to get an AT going against
> Russia, & he still seems uncertain about Russia, so I hope you can persuade
> him to work with you.
Don't take it the wrong way, but you sent me 3 messages with
three different take on the situation. What's up with that? Your
first message indicate you have no way of knowing one way
or the other, the second one you're sure of the Juggernaut and
the last one you think there's a chance of AT.
Now, would it be possible to know your source(s) and what
they told you? This way, I would be in a better position to read
the situation.
Thanks,
Philippe
Message from Turkey to England
Glad to hear we're on the same page. For right now, just make sure FG
don't take you out. :-) I'll also need you to go through Nwy to StP to
finish off Russia, and possibly get me into Mos. After that, we should
have a good anchor around three edges of the board.
jason
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
I 100% understand your question. I got a bunch of press one after the
other & I will be glad to lay it out for you.
First of all I kept getting mysterious press from Russia that vaguely
suggested that he was planning on opening North. And I hadn't heard from
Turkey for several days & when he'd last written he seemed pretty unsure of
his intentions. So, I took a guess that there was an RT forming. It was
based pretty much on Turkish silence and those odd messages from Russia,
absolutely nothing firm.
That was my situation when I first wrote you this evening (my time):
> Well, I think you would know more about RT then I would.
I was not sure, but I was worried enough to encourage you to go to GAL:
> What of GAL? If you are indeed worried about an RT then I imagine you will
> be going there, whether you tell Russia ahead of time or not. . .
Then later I received a press from Italy, telling me you had told him you'd
ordered TRI - VEN. At this point I guessed that if this was getting around
then an RT was much *more* likely, as conflict between Austria and Italy is
an incentive for an RT alliance, so my earlier guess was reinfoced:
> I just heard you are ordering TRI - VEN. I want to urge you to think twice
> about this, if it's true. I have already written the Observers that I
> think there is a Juggernaut forming & now I'm warning you.
Though I was still not 100% sure:
> If I am wrong - which I doubt - then you will have gained an Italian ally
> at no cost to yourself.
*Then* I got a press from Turkey which seemed to show some distrust of
Russia. I think he was being sincere, though as usual I could be wrong.
So I regretted my earlier messages & tried to straighten it out with that
last one:
> Now I just got *another* note - this one from Turkey - & I'm not so sure
> about the RT. I just can't get a fix on Russia, I guess.
Looking back at my reasoning, I think I put too much stock in the messages
I'd been getting from Russia, saying things like, he will want to build
fleets in STP, and so forth, which I should not have worried about so much.
Which leads me back to where I am now, which is my original position (yes
I've gone in one big circle) which is just to try to get you what you
originally wanted, which is an AT. So I hope it is still possible but I
leave it in your hands.
I am so sorry about all the presses, one after the other, but I kept
hearing from this power & that power, and I thought you should know.
Anyway I hope I answered all your questions but please let me know if I did
not.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
I sent Austria a note saying I'd heard from you & you'd shown some distrust
of Russia. That's all I said about the note from you, but I think it may
come back around, so I wanted you to know what I'd written.
Ben
Message from France to England
> I've been fishing & I'm satisfied everything is in order. I've
> corresponded with some of the eastern powers - received recent notes
> from
> Austria, Turkey, & Italy - & I like what I'm hearing. Let's stick with
> Plan A - Western Triple S'01, Germany stab F'01.
>
I agree. Just wanted to pose an alternative scenario so we're not rushing
into this. All signs point to a successful invasion of Piedmont. Besides,
I get the impression that Tony already assumes that nobody trusts him.
Erik
Message from England to England
Things were going so well & I hope I didn't gum everything up by meddling
in the ART triangle. But how was I supposed to know about the secret IT?
Time to cross my fingers.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> I am so sorry about all the presses, one after the other, but I kept
> hearing from this power & that power, and I thought you should know.
No don't be, I'm really gratefull that you took the time to
keep me updated. It's just that I needed more info to
make sense of everything you said.
> Anyway I hope I answered all your questions but please let me know if I did
> not.
Yes you did and I thank you.
Philippe.
P.-S. If it doesn't interfere with your plan, could you open
with Edi-Nwg, Lon-Nth & Lvp-Yor? This way, you not
only make sure of Norway, but you will be in position to
convoy to it if necessary.
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> > Anyway I hope I answered all your questions but please let me know if I
did
> > not.
>
> Yes you did and I thank you.
You are kind.
> P.-S. If it doesn't interfere with your plan, could you open
> with Edi-Nwg, Lon-Nth & Lvp-Yor? This way, you not
> only make sure of Norway, but you will be in position to
> convoy to it if necessary.
It warms the marrow of my bones to hear you ask this question.
I will open as you wish. And noone will know you asked.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
hehehehe I must pay more attention to names, I see you are GM-ing the game LORAX in which I play Turkey. Now that is a tough game. Just thought it funny enough to mention. It goes to prove that I never pay attention to names and past experiences with players.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> hehehehe I must pay more attention to names, I see you are
> GM-ing the game LORAX in which I play Turkey. Now that is a
> tough game.
You know, when we started in C2, I said to myself, Tony's address is
*really* familiar. Where do I know it from. . . I must have looked at
every other game I'm gm'ing. I just overlooked Lorax, I guess. In the end
I told myself I'd seen your name on VG or r.g.d. a few times.
Makes me regret ignoring all the partial press. . .
;-)
Ben
Message to all
> OK, so here it is. MUN - BUR (agreed bounce with France), KIE - DEN (on
> request), BER - KIE. Pretty standard opening I would say. Anyone else like
> to share?
Can we expect you to keep this up?
Message from England to England
Ok, modified predictions:
I still think Austria and Russia will bounce in Galicia. But now I think
they will be simultaneously violating a dmz. I also now think that Austria
will open traditionally with TRI - ALB and BUD - SER, though I think Andy is
sincerely persuaded of TRI - VEN.
Obviously Turkey will have to shuffle around a bit. So my new predictions
are:
Austria:
F TRI - ALB
A BUD - SER
A VIE - GAL
Turkey:
A CON - BUL
A SMY - ARM
F ANK - BLA
Otherwise they remain the same. The unit I am most unsure of is not
coincidentally Russian: A MOS. Could easily go to LVN, if he thinks there
is an RT.
Also the press I sent to Germany about recognizing his e-mail but being
unable to find it in my games was true.
Ben
Message from Germany to all
<Can we expect you to keep this up?>
Who are 'we'? some of you can some of you cant. Those that expect will
receive ;-)
So, no one else willing to lie.. I mean share their opening moves?
Turkey; just to save on press and answer in this one, the answer is NO.
I will not be asking France and Italy to convoy me to SMY nor will I aid in
any EFI convoy of a Russian unit from STP to CON.
Message from England to all
> I will not be asking France and Italy to convoy me to SMY nor
> will I aid in any EFI convoy of a Russian unit from STP to CON.
My suggestion was for a convoy of a Russian army from NAF to STP, via the
Eastern Med. Please read your press more carefully.
My opening moves are:
F STP/sc - BOT
A MOS - WAR
A WAR - MOS
F SEV - ION
This way I maximize my defensive posture and bounce Italy from the Ionian.
Ben
Austria: Army Budapest → Serbia
Austria: Fleet Trieste → Venice (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Vienna → Budapest
England: Fleet Edinburgh → Norwegian Sea
England: Army Liverpool → Yorkshire
England: Fleet London → North Sea
France: Fleet Brest → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Army Marseilles → Piedmont
France: Army Paris → Gascony
Germany: Army Berlin → Kiel
Germany: Fleet Kiel → Denmark
Germany: Army Munich → Ruhr
Italy: Fleet Naples → Ionian Sea
Italy: Army Rome → Apulia
Italy: Army Venice HOLD
Russia: Army Moscow HOLD
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol → Black Sea (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (south coast) → Gulf of Bothnia
Russia: Army Warsaw → Ukraine
Turkey: Fleet Ankara → Black Sea (*bounce*)
Turkey: Army Constantinople → Bulgaria
Turkey: Army Smyrna → Armenia
|