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Message from England to France
Erik -
> Don't worry. No invasion planned.
Ah! Didn't get this until waaay too late. But I hope you will agree -
things are good. See below.
> It was a last minute decision. I needed to hang onto Holland,
> and to do so
> required promising to move to Iri. I figured doing so would give me a
> little more credibility with Germany down the road and give
> me a chance to
> manipulate him a bit. I would have told you, but I didn't
> want you pulling units back unnecessarily.
That makes sense & is consistent with our experience with Tony. I built the
F LVP hoping for the best with your build, and thinking, if you did not
build F BRE, then F LVP could circle around LVP - NAO - NWG etc., and play
an important role in the north.
> Clearly, with your two builds and without any other French
> units in the
> area, I do not have a serious attack planned on your
> homeland. I hope you will keep this in mind when you choose
> your builds.
Well, as I said, I got this press too late, but I hope you will agree,
things are good now. Though I hope that the absence of a "serious" attack
also means the absence of a "not serious" attack, which would be an attack
just the same. . . Sorry for the word play - it's a genetic condition.
> More after the adjustments.
I'm ready!
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Big showdown this weekend by our surrogates. Some notes about the Ravens/Raiders game this weekend, at Oakland. I take no responsibility for these numbers, which may have imagined or made up:
1. #1 most penalized team (Raiders) meets #2 most penalized team (Ravens)
2. League's worst rushing defense (Raiders) welcomes to town the league's leading rusher (Jamal Lewis, Ravens)
3. Raiders are a *six* *point* home *dog* - not good, but
4. they are according to their own coach "the dumbest team in America," a statement for which he has made 1,000 mea culpas, but he is done in Oakland
5. Like most of their home games, the Raiders have not been able to sell it out. Tickets are widely available and reportedly inexpensive
6. Besides the penalty issue, these two teams are probably among the most universally /disliked/ outside of their fan bases
___________________
My guess is, KIE is up for grabs this year. Thank you for supporting me in - as you can see, it turned out I needed the build - and I would appreciate such intelligence as you can send my way about the F/G negotiations, so I can plot my coordinates.
Is there anything you need/want from me?
Ben
Message from Austria to England
Hi Ben,
Thanks for the warning. I will see what can be done
with Andy. Also, should I congratulate you on making
peace with Eric? I sure would appreciate seeing you
free to move against Erik in the north ;-)
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> Thanks for the warning.
You are welcome. I hope it does you some good.
> I will see what can be done
> with Andy. Also, should I congratulate you on making
> peace with Eric?
Erik, in France, please pass along that I mentioned to you I want to attack
Eric, in Russia, so he is convinced of my sincerity with him. I'd
appreciate it.
> I sure would appreciate seeing you
> free to move against Erik in the north ;-)
Eric, in Russia, yes I would like to be able to move against him as well.
It depends on whether I can pry the French F IRI away from my coastline.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> It depends on whether I can pry the French F IRI away from my coastline.
Sorry about the confusion with the c & the k, it's been
a while. I still haven't heard back from Erik, but will try
to pass along that you really prefer to go against Russia
then him.
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> Sorry about the confusion with the c & the k, it's been
> a while.
For heaven's sake, don't apologize to me, I'm just trying to keep you out of trouble. I knew what you meant.
> I still haven't heard back from Erik, but will try
> to pass along that you really prefer to go against Russia
> then him.
Thanks. This will hopefully hit the spot.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I will probably regret taking KIE. But you & Russia were each promising /me/ a favorable move and were each promising /each other/ a move unfavorable to me. So I was left having to guess, having been bitten once and a half by each of you, and I went with Russia. When you see the archives, you will see how difficult a choice it was for me.
The fake press was a nice touch. . .
I'll write something of substance when I can get my head into the tactics, but I didn't want to let too much time pass without writing.
Also thank you for the group press which helped crystalize some of the things that had been rattling around in my head, and I agree with you about several of your important points about what's to come.
Make me better! 8-)
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben,
Well I made quite a booby with my disbands, I was sure I disbanded RUH
instead of MUN.
Darn my fat fingers and lack of brain/eye/hand coordination.
Hopefully the powers that be will be confused and seek explanation in some
genius tactical dibandonment order.
It will indeed be interesting to see how you came to make the choice you
did. I see no excape for you. I think you blew the second chance when you
built what you did. Going by Frances build he had some hope. Wait and see
when the first Russian build in STP pops its head up. He made it by the skin
of his teeth when you didnt opt to take Norway instead. As you can see from
my moves (once again) I was genuine.
Unless BUR supports me back to MUN and you support BER then my two sc's will
fall to Russia.
I am guessing that France will be retreating IRI. If I were you I would
still opt fro the central allience and push NTH - NWG and LON - NTH. This
nets you Norway in the fall. It will be your last chance.
I wont diplome with you and france this move. I think I have said enough
regarding the situation on the board. I am wondering where you went wrong
with France that he moved to IRI?
Nothing fits Russia's game plan better than to have you and France fight.
Even now you must realise just looking at the board how lucky Russia is now.
Your fleets all seem to be aiming west. He will have tight cheeks this
coming year, move now move swiftly. Your build in LVP may have left him with
his guard down a little, but thereagain there is nothing he can do if you
move north.
I will just order BER hold and RUH - MUN. I will soon know what happens. My
fortune cookie prediction for this year is the fall of Greece and BUD and
depending on EF actions the fall of BER & MUN. Builds to be made in STP and
MOS.
The coming years I see RT sweeping through Germany and Italy and Austria.
Good luck whatever you chose to do.
Tony
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Well I made quite a booby with my disbands, I was sure I
> disbanded RUH instead of MUN.
> Darn my fat fingers and lack of brain/eye/hand coordination.
I was sure I was missing the brilliance. . .
> I am guessing that France will be retreating IRI.
I hope so. I certainly did not mean to terminate the EF relation - I thought it was a natural and flexible build.
> I wont diplome with you and france this move.
This I understand.
> I will just order BER hold and RUH - MUN. I will soon know what happens.
Whichever way I go - I may be looking for an army presence in the fall. We will see where we are, but I am sure I will be bending your ear for something.
> The coming years I see RT sweeping through Germany and Italy and Austria.
Definitely the RT. I agree.
> Good luck whatever you chose to do.
Thank you, my friend. And to you.
Ben
Message from Germany to England and France
I have ordered BER hold and RUH - MUN. I am hoping for support in BER from
DEN
(although it can be cut). I am also hoping on RUH - MUN supported by BUR. I
fear BER & MUN wil else be taken by Russia.
I am sure you guys have made peace regarding LVP.
Those who are about to die salute you.
Message from Germany to England
OK, I just couldnt resist one last press to you and France :-)
Message from Germany to all
Turkey, I blame you for my downfall. So my wil and testament requests that
England, France and Italy position their fleets as such to allow me to
convoy
to CON to have a few words to you. I will be bording in HEL and hopping vai
NTH, ENG, MAO, WES, TYS, ION, AEG to CON.
I would be gratefull if the AEG would assist in this operation.You owe me at
least that much for all the bad advice you have been pressing me these last
few years.
Message from Austria to all
Hi all,
I'm not going to be available this week-end and will
get back to everyone monday.
Philippe
Message from England to France
Erik -
If Russia asks, I have begun asking you about HOL.
We can discuss it for real if you like - we will get around to it soon
enough, & I didn't forget - but the key thing is, if Russia asks, yes I
asked you about it.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
I have broached the subject of Holland with France but he is silent. I suspect he is being silent with everyone, though. Have you heard anything?
Ben
Message from Russia to all
This has been a hellishly busy week for me and the weekend doesn't look
much better. (Then again, neither does next week, so I'll just try to deal
with it and not request any extensions). While I've managed to dash off a
note here and there, I've mostly disappeared for the last two days. My
apologies to those who are owed notes from me, I will attempt to get notes
out before the end of the night.
In addition to overall time management issues, my ISP started deciding
sometime last week that certain messages from USTX are spam. This means
that I didn't see some messages for days after they arrived here, and
because of user error a couple of those messages were immediately deleted.
I *believe* that I have at least seen every message that was sent to me,
even if I still don't have a copy on hand, but if you sent anything really
important to me in the last few days, I request that you resend it.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
To quote a famous analyst:
"Lemme 'splain. No 'splaining takes too much time, lemme sum up: The
Ravens are good. The Raiders suck. The Ravens will win."
[Hey, that reminds me of the short-lived Tzarface thing, which also
reminds me: did I ever tell you that for Halloween my wife dressed up
as a fairy godmother, and so I ended up dressing up as the fairy
Godfather, complete with horse head-topped wand? I know I kept
thinking about mentioning it, since you were the only one who seemed
to like the Tzarface persona, but I don't know if I ever did.]
Anyway, on the R&R front: I don't why you have to do all of the
analysis when it's basically as simple. I recall in the game last
week against the Steelers when the analysts were saying "It's the
movable object (Oakland's 32nd ranked rushing defense) meeting the
resistible force (Pittsburgh's 31st ranked rushing offense)." This
could be really ugly. Watch out record books!
The sad thing is that as you note I will be listening to the game on
my old-fashioned AM radio, because it won't be televised. And the
radio reception sucks, because Santa Cruz is on the far side of a
mountain range that effectively blocks most broadcast media coming
from San Francisco/San Jose. I probably won't be able to see them
play again until they meet the Chargers for the season ender -- the
battle for the number one draft pick. Sigh, I don't even seem to get
to watch the Broncos go down in flames (the next best thing to a
Super Bowl win for most Raiders fans).
------------------------------------
Onto diplomacy:
Obviously I've been pretty silent. I haven't from Tony or Erik,
except for brief checkins that in Erik's case got listed as spam so
was unreplied to. With Tony, right after the moves he and I talked
about some general stuff that was not at all specific to this game
(he's kind of easy to talk to if you're not actually trying to
negotiate with him), so I have no idea what either is planning.
Tony's disbands indicate to me that he is looking to help one of us
Eri(c|k)s over you. Given the combined silence, I'd assume he's
helping France.
I don't see any reason why I can't try to help you keep Kie. I agree
that it may fall, but gaining Kie means losing Ber if I tap it, and
from Ber I can help you get Kie back, possibly even before you lose
the SC. I'm thinking something like Den S Kie, Nth-Hel, Lon-Nth,
while I tap Ber. Or you could do something like Den-Hel, Nth S
Lon-Eng, Lvp-Iri, and really start pressing Erik. The former is more
aggressive in terms of trying to hold Kie, but if you DO lose Kie the
latter moves allow you to retreat to Den, while keeping pressure all
up and down the north coast of Europe. In fact, with the latter you
could possibly retake Kie and pick up one of Hol/Bel/Bre, which would
place Erik in a very difficult guessing game for defense.
I've really not spent much time at all analyzing the board, so I may
well be overlooking some important details. But I thought it
important to put something specific on the table to start from given
my lack of availability.
Let me know what you'd like to do, and I'll try to respond quickly.
--- Eric
Message from France to England
So as I see it, I've got two jobs at this point: finish up Germany and then
turn my attention to Italy. Even if I had other things to do, my build of
F Mar has more or less ensured Andy's mistrust, so if I don't start
sending units his way, he'll send them mine once Austria is dispatched. I
know you and Andy have been doing plenty of talking, so in the interest of
cooperation, I'm going to ask that stay out of this conflict.
You, meanwhile, can choose to go after Russia and finally take Scandanavia
back, or you can start beseiging Iberia and Brest -- but given Russia's
excellent position, I'm hoping and assuming you'll choose the former.
Frankly, I've had a pretty good relationship with Russia so far, so in
exchange for your keeping your nose out of my business with Italy, I'll
keep my nose out of your business with the Czar.
As for Holland: what exactly is it that you'd like to discuss? With
Scandanavia open to you and Munich not exactly guaranteed to fall to me,
I'm hoping we can agree to leave it in French hands.
Speaking of Munich, what's the best course? Support Germany just to keep
Russia out?
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> So as I see it, I've got two jobs at this point: finish up Germany and then
> turn my attention to Italy. Even if I had other things to do, my build of
> F Mar has more or less ensured Andy's mistrust, so if I don't start
> sending units his way, he'll send them mine once Austria is dispatched. I
> know you and Andy have been doing plenty of talking, so in the interest of
> cooperation, I'm going to ask that stay out of this conflict.
I will, though I'm not going to promise not to write to Italy. Basically, I have a 'relationship' with everyone who will write to me.
> You, meanwhile, can choose to go after Russia and finally take Scandanavia
> back, or you can start beseiging Iberia and Brest -- but given Russia's
> excellent position, I'm hoping and assuming you'll choose the former.
My fleets can come down on him like a ton of bricks. It's my first choice.
> Frankly, I've had a pretty good relationship with Russia so far, so in
> exchange for your keeping your nose out of my business with Italy, I'll
> keep my nose out of your business with the Czar.
:-) You got it. I will keep you more apprised of my dialogue with Italy; you will keep me more apprised of your dialogue with Russia.
> As for Holland: what exactly is it that you'd like to discuss? With
> Scandanavia open to you and Munich not exactly guaranteed to fall to me,
> I'm hoping we can agree to leave it in French hands.
HOL has to be English long-term. Without it, the French center share is too large; it creates an imbalance. Let's see where we are in the fall - much depends on KIE and MUN. If you still need it in the fall, then it will stay French. If I need it in the fall, then it will become English.
Let me know if this is acceptable to you.
> Speaking of Munich, what's the best course? Support Germany just to keep
> Russia out?
Yes. In exchange in the fall we can use him to protect our interest in KIE/BER. Don't let him know yet.
Does that sound workable to you?
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> "Lemme 'splain. No 'splaining takes too much time, lemme sum up: The
> Ravens are good. The Raiders suck. The Ravens will win."
The game will be, let me see, alittle less than half 'a 'our.
> [Hey, that reminds me of the short-lived Tzarface thing, which also
> reminds me: did I ever tell you that for Halloween my wife dressed up
> as a fairy godmother, and so I ended up dressing up as the fairy
> Godfather, complete with horse head-topped wand? I know I kept
> thinking about mentioning it, since you were the only one who seemed
> to like the Tzarface persona, but I don't know if I ever did.]
:-) One day when I'm good maybe I'll get the hand of role-playing.
> Anyway, on the R&R front: I don't why you have to do all of the
> analysis when it's basically as simple. I recall in the game last
> week against the Steelers when the analysts were saying "It's the
> movable object (Oakland's 32nd ranked rushing defense) meeting the
> resistible force (Pittsburgh's 31st ranked rushing offense)." This
> could be really ugly. Watch out record books!
You are right, though I think last week was a bit of a fluke. I would expect the Raiders to show alittle more life this week then last.
------------------------------------
> Obviously I've been pretty silent. I haven't from Tony or Erik,
> except for brief checkins that in Erik's case got listed as spam so
> was unreplied to. With Tony, right after the moves he and I talked
> about some general stuff that was not at all specific to this game
> (he's kind of easy to talk to if you're not actually trying to
> negotiate with him), so I have no idea what either is planning.
> Tony's disbands indicate to me that he is looking to help one of us
> Eri(c|k)s over you. Given the combined silence, I'd assume he's
> helping France.
You are probably right.
> I don't see any reason why I can't try to help you keep Kie. I agree
> that it may fall, but gaining Kie means losing Ber if I tap it, and
> from Ber I can help you get Kie back, possibly even before you lose
> the SC. I'm thinking something like Den S Kie, Nth-Hel, Lon-Nth,
> while I tap Ber. Or you could do something like Den-Hel, Nth S
> Lon-Eng, Lvp-Iri, and really start pressing Erik. The former is more
> aggressive in terms of trying to hold Kie, but if you DO lose Kie the
> latter moves allow you to retreat to Den, while keeping pressure all
> up and down the north coast of Europe. In fact, with the latter you
> could possibly retake Kie and pick up one of Hol/Bel/Bre, which would
> place Erik in a very difficult guessing game for defense.
>
> I've really not spent much time at all analyzing the board, so I may
> well be overlooking some important details. But I thought it
> important to put something specific on the table to start from given
> my lack of availability.
:-) No sweat, about that.
> Let me know what you'd like to do, and I'll try to respond quickly.
For now, support KIE if you care to; it's not going anywhere. I'll write if that changes.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> > Let me know what you'd like to do, and I'll try to respond quickly.
>For now, support KIE if you care to; it's not going anywhere. I'll write
>if that changes.
Well, I did now hear from France. I'm getting mixed signals from him. On
the one hand, he's quite angry that I supported you into Kie. On the other
hand, he's still feeling out whether or not I'm willing to help him get
into Mun and Kie to press his attack on you and get him builds use against
you. But nothing specific enough for useful intel at this point.
What are you hearing from him at this point?
What else do you need from me to see things work for you?
--- Eric
Message from France to England
Ben:
Okay, glad we're back on the same page here. I'll move Iri to Mao this
turn; I'm assuming that you'll be keeping Lvp in place a phase for
insurance. What about Lon? Can I ask that it stay out of the English
channel?
I am willing to consider giving up Holland, but not this turn, certainly.
I'd need to gain Munich first. If you can get Berlin and Norway, that
should serve to establish a bit more parity.
Erik
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> > > Let me know what you'd like to do, and I'll try to respond quickly.
>
> >For now, support KIE if you care to; it's not going anywhere. I'll write
> >if that changes.
Ok, did you decide? Will you go for MUN and support me in KIE?
> Well, I did now hear from France. I'm getting mixed signals from him. On
> the one hand, he's quite angry that I supported you into Kie. On the other
> hand, he's still feeling out whether or not I'm willing to help him get
> into Mun and Kie to press his attack on you and get him builds use against
> you. But nothing specific enough for useful intel at this point.
Hm. I imagine he will be pushing for RUH in the spring. Clearly Tony is
the wild card. What's he told you? As I recall he sent the group press
with a promise & did not vary from it in his private press to me. Is he
offering KIE?
> What are you hearing from him at this point?
IRI was to satisfy you (or Tony - not 100% clear) but it was clearly not an
invasion and will be withdrawn post haste. What else would he say?
> What else do you need from me to see things work for you?
Hard to say right now - the moves I'm framing out obviously don't need
coordination with you. Just the support in KIE, as I've said.
Nice game - damned if we didn't roll over. Glad I was in the car driving
through wind and rain and snow, so I only had to listen on the radio. . .
Ben
Message from England to England
Clearly Erik is being unreasonable about HOL. Doesn't he see I'm trying to
decide, and doesn't he see how hard he's making it to choose him? I would
like to go after Scandinavia but he mysteriously does not acknowledge the
English interest in landing on the continent.
I will try to put on my confrontational mask, let's see, where is it. . .
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Okay, glad we're back on the same page here. I'll move Iri to Mao this
> turn; I'm assuming that you'll be keeping Lvp in place a phase for
> insurance. What about Lon? Can I ask that it stay out of the English
> channel?
Yes. I will stay out of the Channel.
> I am willing to consider giving up Holland, but not this turn, certainly.
Erik, what exactly do you mean, consider. If an EF is going to work, then
France becomes predominantly a *Mediterranean*, *southern* power. I want
to work with you but I cannot sell to the English parliament that HOL is to
be given to the English when the French get around to it. I am glad to
work with you - I think we've gotten along well so far & I am looking
forward to opposing the RT with an EF - but I need a firmer commitment from
you on HOL. Else our relaitonship is too one-sided.
For instance: "Ben, I want to hold onto HOL this spring. In the fall we
will see who needs it more. Next year at the latest, I will give it to
you."
> I'd need to gain Munich first. If you can get Berlin and Norway, that
> should serve to establish a bit more parity.
See above.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> >For now, support KIE if you care to; it's not going anywhere. I'll write
> >if that changes.
>Ok, did you decide? Will you go for MUN and support me in KIE?
I am so glad to hear this question. I thought from your first message you
were not interested in a commitment, and it was an ominous feeling.
I've offered support for Kie from the get go. That's not changing. I wasn't
clear that you had a vested interest in me taking Mun. I've certainly
considered it -- can you tell me why it's important so I can add that to my
planning.
> Clearly Tony is the wild card. What's he told you?
Does it matter? :) He's told me that he'll cut Kie to allow me to attack Den,
if I'll leave him one of Ber or Kie in exchange. I actually believe him on
this, since Ber-Kie is kind of a must for him regardless. He'll probably also
try (again) to get you to take Nwy while he thinks he's pinned Swe in place.
> IRI was to satisfy you (or Tony - not 100% clear) but it was clearly not >
an invasion and will be withdrawn post haste. What else would he say?
Yeah, good back pedal. :)
> Hard to say right now - the moves I'm framing out obviously don't need
> coordination with you. Just the support in KIE, as I've said.
Okay. I'll also be moving Swe-Nwy, which puts us in the position we had
discussed (Nwy empty or patrolled by an army), and should give you a more
comfortable feeling about the "FR pincer" than Tony went on and on about. I
think it actually gets me a better defensive position, too.
I should probably end the Diplomacy part of message here, but I just want to
address one last set of jitters I'm getting this season:
More than one player has told me that you are coming after m. Now, one of
those players has said that every season for the last three, but hearing this
from others is a whole new thing, and it sounds potentially credible as I
hear it from them. Now generally I don't put a lot of weight into such things
because stirring up the pot is part of the game, but it is making me
concerned.
When I look at that and review your messages with a more paranoid eye, I note
that you have not said anything since the builds that would preclude your
discussion being about moving east instead of south, just that our moves
don't need much coordination. I know you tell me not to worry about such
things, but this all combines to make me wonder whether or not you're
suddently getting coy with me. I have to admit that I am more nervous about
your plans this turn than I have been at any point in the past.
So one more time I'm going to paint the ugly pictures to try to calm my own
nerves:
Me attacking you: All I could try to do is take Den, but that puts me in bad
position if you were not coming after me because Den-Ska means I lose Nwy and
have to protect StP next year, and I'd never see gains in Germany proper
(you'd see to that). And if I attacked you whle you did move against me, it's
an even worse move. Taking Kie as you suggest is no better, as I'd be
completely out of position to defend myself from your reprisal.
You attacking me: You could actually take several of my centers, but not
without losing at least one to France for every one you gained (I'd see to
that -- I know Erik is still interested in occupying the isle and out
growning you). In the end, you'd be barred from ever making progress on the
mainland, and France would eventually overrun you.
Okay, enough of the gloom and doom. I *am* heartened by the fact that you
built as you did, and I am hoping that we can happily go our mostly separate
ways after this season. And obviously a lot of what I am hearing is probably
what you would tell the people I'm hearing it from anyway. Tony clearly needs
us to fight for a chance of staying alive, because that way one of us might
help him against the other, hence his continued agitation for ER fighting.
Much like you last season, I'm just looking for confirmation that we are
following the path we've talked about, and that you are headed to France
while I back off.
> Nice game - damned if we didn't roll over. Glad I was in the car driving
> through wind and rain and snow, so I only had to listen on the radio. . .
I listened to only parts, as I was at a concert. During the breaks between
pieces I'd stick in the headphones to get updates, but was mostly clueless
about what happened in the second half.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> > >For now, support KIE if you care to; it's not going
> anywhere. I'll write
> > >if that changes.
>
> >Ok, did you decide? Will you go for MUN and support me in KIE?
>
> I am so glad to hear this question. I thought from your first
> message you
> were not interested in a commitment, and it was an ominous feeling.
>
> I've offered support for Kie from the get go. That's not
> changing. I wasn't
> clear that you had a vested interest in me taking Mun. I've certainly
> considered it -- can you tell me why it's important so I can
> add that to my planning.
I am an irresponsible diplomacy player. Until the deadline is very close, I
will often write press without consulting the map. So if I occasionally ask
a question earlier in the phase, like I did that one, feel free to let me
know you don't want to tell me or something; I don't need to know. Don't
worry about it.
> > Clearly Tony is the wild card. What's he told you?
>
> Does it matter? :) He's told me that he'll cut Kie to allow
> me to attack Den,
> if I'll leave him one of Ber or Kie in exchange. I actually
> believe him on
> this, since Ber-Kie is kind of a must for him regardless.
I wonder which of us he's telling the truth. Bizarre, the way he plays.
Good experience for us, to play with a whirling dervish like him. ;-)
> He'll probably also
> try (again) to get you to take Nwy while he thinks he's
> pinned Swe in place.
He is, but in a more roundabout way than in the past. He's really tried
just about everything, from "misdirected" press on down the ladder. . .
> > Hard to say right now - the moves I'm framing out obviously
> don't need
> > coordination with you. Just the support in KIE, as I've said.
>
> Okay. I'll also be moving Swe-Nwy, which puts us in the
> position we had
> discussed (Nwy empty or patrolled by an army), and should
> give you a more
> comfortable feeling about the "FR pincer" than Tony went on
> and on about. I
> think it actually gets me a better defensive position, too.
I agree. Tony has continued arguments along the FR pincer line in group EF
press, which is how I believe he is still trying to persuade me to attack
you.
> I should probably end the Diplomacy part of message here, but
> I just want to
> address one last set of jitters I'm getting this season:
Better you write this then let it worry you. Let's keep the air clear.
> More than one player has told me that you are coming after m.
> Now, one of
> those players has said that every season for the last three,
> but hearing this
> from others is a whole new thing, and it sounds potentially
> credible as I
> hear it from them. Now generally I don't put a lot of weight
> into such things
> because stirring up the pot is part of the game, but it is making me
> concerned.
Positionally it has been pointed out to me that I could attack you, if I
wanted. And you and I are both good enough players that we watch for *good*
opportunities when they arise. So you are wise to keep your ear to the
rail, so to speak. I am curious to know from whom you are hearing these
rumors - as the only power I have suggested this to, was France (um, what
would you have told him in my shoes. . .). Setting aside us and France,
leaving four powers, three of them have repeatedly pled with me to attack
you. Only Andy has not. Turkey's request was the most insistent this
phase, and though this is *true* the reason I write it should speak for
itself.
I have tried to remain noncommittal when receiving such requests, as I do
not want to discourage too firmly an open exchange of ideas. No doubt some
of our neighbors have taken it as a sign that I *would* attack you, which
would be kind of foolish of me, considering it was my *other* neighbor that
just attacked *me*. Still, I can see how they'd believe it; Tony is telling
us and no doubt others that Erik and I had made peace long before I'd even
gotten the first apologetic French press. On this point, my guess is, you
can verify it yourself by looking at the timing of your own private
correspondence with FG, if they kept the pattern with you they kept with me.
> When I look at that and review your messages with a more
> paranoid eye, I note
> that you have not said anything since the builds that would
> preclude your
> discussion being about moving east instead of south, just
> that our moves
> don't need much coordination. I know you tell me not to worry
> about such
> things, but this all combines to make me wonder whether or not you're
> suddently getting coy with me. I have to admit that I am more
> nervous about
> your plans this turn than I have been at any point in the past.
With good reason as I said above. The *moves* are there for me to go either
way, as you can see, and in your position I would feel the same. Keep in
mind what you know of yourself vs. what you know of Erik: which one of you
would *you* rather work with? Which writes more frequently, and more
sensibly? Which provides superior analysis? Which was the one who just
moved to IRI? So, you have to decide again, whether you think I will move
as I told you. In my position, I think you would probably work the ER
alliance. I know that's *my* intention, and it is up to you to decide
whether I am sincere.
> So one more time I'm going to paint the ugly pictures to try
> to calm my own nerves:
You are very nervous for a Californian. ;^)
> Me attacking you: All I could try to do is take Den, but that
> puts me in bad
> position if you were not coming after me because Den-Ska
> means I lose Nwy and
> have to protect StP next year, and I'd never see gains in
> Germany proper
> (you'd see to that). And if I attacked you whle you did move
> against me, it's
> an even worse move. Taking Kie as you suggest is no better, as I'd be
> completely out of position to defend myself from your reprisal.
I agree.
> You attacking me: You could actually take several of my
> centers, but not
> without losing at least one to France for every one you
> gained (I'd see to
> that -- I know Erik is still interested in occupying the isle and out
> growning you).
I can groan with the best of them.
> In the end, you'd be barred from ever making
> progress on the
> mainland, and France would eventually overrun you.
I agree. Also his long silences are making him a difficult companion.
> Okay, enough of the gloom and doom. I *am* heartened by the
> fact that you
> built as you did, and I am hoping that we can happily go our
> mostly separate
> ways after this season. And obviously a lot of what I am
> hearing is probably
> what you would tell the people I'm hearing it from anyway.
> Tony clearly needs
> us to fight for a chance of staying alive, because that way
> one of us might
> help him against the other, hence his continued agitation for
> ER fighting.
> Much like you last season, I'm just looking for confirmation
> that we are
> following the path we've talked about, and that you are
> headed to France while I back off.
Absolutely. I will need builds to make some armies and land them on the
continent. I do not know whether this will call for assistance from you,
but it may at some point soon.
Also - this past weekend I was on the road, including yesterday in heavy
snow driving from Teaneck to Baltimore, with a van full of family. We left
in the morning. This weekend I was borrowing moments at which I could write
from my parents' computer at their house. So if you detected some
irregularity in tone, or thoughtfulness, or perceptiveness, please bear in
mind I was writing in unusually harsh conditions.
> > Nice game - damned if we didn't roll over. Glad I was in
> the car driving
> > through wind and rain and snow, so I only had to listen on
> the radio. . .
>
> I listened to only parts, as I was at a concert. During the
> breaks between
> pieces I'd stick in the headphones to get updates, but was
> mostly clueless about what happened in the second half.
You are being gentlemanly. We came all the way out to Oakland, and urinated
all over the field, and got our butts kicked, and you are being very
gracious about not calling attention to it. God bless you and your family.
;o)
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> I am an irresponsible diplomacy player.
Whereas I never disappear without notice for a several days at a time like,
oh, last Thursday. :)
> Until the deadline is very close, I will often write press without
> consulting the map.
I've been known to consult the map and see what's not there!
> So if I occasionally ask
> a question earlier in the phase, like I did that one, feel free to let
> me know you don't want to tell me or something; I don't need to know.
> Don't worry about it.
That wasn't my point at all. I have a couple of units that can clearly play
in two different fronts. France has asked me to help him take Mun, Germany
has indicated interest, and there have been various requests around what I
might do in the south. Actually Boh is the one unit that seems to have the
most flexibility. So I meant that comment literally: I did not realize you
had a specific interest in what I do about Mun. I don't recall you asking
about it, so I didn't think I was being coy, I just wanted to hear what you
had to say. Since *you* are the northern player I'm trying to satisfy, I
thought it would be useful to know what you'd like to see there. I do intend
to take Mun, but taking it in Spring was not necessarily a requirement for
me.
> I wonder which of us he's telling the truth. Bizarre, the way he plays.
> Good experience for us, to play with a whirling dervish like him. ;-)
If the past is any indication, neither. I must admit I *really* expected him
to move on Den last season, and was VERY surprised to see that he went to
Holland instead.
> I am curious to know from whom you are hearing these
> rumors - as the only power I have suggested this to, was France (um,
> what would you have told him in my shoes. . .).
Understood.
> Setting aside us and
> France, leaving four powers, three of them have repeatedly pled with me
> to attack you. Only Andy has not. Turkey's request was the most
> insistent this phase, and though this is *true* the reason I write it
> should speak for itself.
The southern powers have not been as direct in their wordings as France, but
I can read the tea leaves with the best of them, especially when they are
pessimistic tea leaves. Philippe has talked of my need (I'll put some
emphasis on that word) to focus on the north several times, enough for
plausible deniability on his part ("I never told Eric anything") yet still
give me the message that I need to get my units moving north. Jason has not
said anything specific, but that's not really his style.
> On this point, my guess is, you
> can verify it yourself by looking at the timing of your own private
> correspondence with FG, if they kept the pattern with you they kept with
> me.
Which they do.
> Keep in
> mind what you know of yourself vs. what you know of Erik: which one of
> you would *you* rather work with?
:) But actually it's the early EF cooperation that makes this hard to guage.
Is Erik just less engaged with me because he's had better rapport with you.
(I know, he just attacked you, but still).
> Which writes more frequently, and more sensibly?
> Which provides superior analysis?
Well, again, I am a very harsh critic of myself, so I think I have unusually
filtered views of the quality of my moves, press and analysis.
> Which was the one who just moved to IRI?
Okay, that one I can give an unbiased answer to! :)
> You are very nervous for a Californian. ;^)
You don't know the half of it! My wife got me a poster that says: "Don't tell
me to relax. The stress is the only thing holding me together." Describes me
pretty well. If I'm not stressed out about anything, I get stressed about the
fact that I'm probably forgetting something.
>> I listened to only parts, as I was at a concert. During the
>> breaks between pieces I'd stick in the headphones to get updates,
>> but was mostly clueless about what happened in the second half.
> You are being gentlemanly. We came all the way out to Oakland, and
> urinated all over the field, and got our butts kicked, and you are
> being very gracious about not calling attention to it.
:) I am very much a "there but for the grace..." kind of guy. I don't kick
people when they are down, because I like to believe they wouldn't/won't kick
me when I'm down. That said, if I knew how your guys blew it, I wouldn't mind
talking about it -- I just wouldn't rub your face in it.
> God bless you and your family.
And yours.
--- Eric
Message from France to England
Ben:
Last minute reply here, but it's better than nothing, I suppose.
Frankly, I don't want to commit to giving up Holland in any definite turn,
as I don't know how things are going to unfold down south. How about this:
if I can take Munich this turn, I'm willing to cede control of Holland to
you the following turn. Sound good?
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Last minute reply here, but it's better than nothing, I suppose.
Of course it's better than nothing. We /expect/ last minute negotiations!
It's part of the game! ;o)
> Frankly, I don't want to commit to giving up Holland in any definite turn,
> as I don't know how things are going to unfold down south. How about this:
> if I can take Munich this turn, I'm willing to cede control of Holland to
> you the following turn. Sound good?
Harrumm. . . I imagine you are expecting assistance into MUN. . . If I
can bend someone's ear to make sure you get it, let me know. . .
Certainly I accept, that if you get MUN, you will give me HOL, and I also
understand your press to mean, that if things look ok for you in the south,
then you will give me HOL. Which I can accept.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Please support DEN - KIE & let me know you are doing it.
Thanks.
Ben
Message from England to England
Decided to go with Russia, against France. Again I am guessing. If I am
right again then I can lay low for awhile - it would be a huge relief, and
really, a surprise, too. If I get away cleanly from Russia and get my
hooks into France it will be smooth sailing for awhile.
My diplomacy this phase was not good - I was out of touch with the powers
in the east. Clearly (a) Andy sent some alarm bell to France, which I
should have expected, and I think also (b) Austria wrote something to
Russia, which I will have to bear in mind.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> Please support DEN - KIE & let me know you are doing it.
Damn, lost my message in progress.
I'm here and can do this, but would like a confirm back from you to do it.
I assume you realize that Bal S Den-Kie means there is a chance that you
could lose Kie, but I assume you'd look to be in Hel/Nth/Eng at the same
time? Just curious what makes it look better than Den-Hel (which you could do
without me changing my order, and would appear to give much the same result).
I'm here but busy for the next hour. Let me know if this (changing to Bal S
Den-Kie) is a go.
FWIW, I have a message from Erik explicitly stating that he may back Iri off
of Lvp, but then again, he may not. How's that for useful intel? :)
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
Here's hoping you wake up before Erik. I've ordered support for Den-Kie. The
move will probably process before I see any response from you, so I hope you
can take advantage of it.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
One thing I thought goes without saying, but I now realize I hadn't
actually /said/ anyway - I would urge you to do what is in your power to
make MUN *anything* other than French.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
That (keeping Mun from being French) shouldn't be a problem -- at least not
in Spring. And that should be enough info for you to figure out exactly what
I'm doing, I think.
To quote another Eric, "Bon Chance". [Looking at that Eric's position in the
two games I'm watching.] Hmm. Perhaps quoting that Eric isn't the best
portent in the world right now. :)
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> That (keeping Mun from being French) shouldn't be a problem
> -- at least not
> in Spring. And that should be enough info for you to figure
> out exactly what I'm doing, I think.
Interesting. I am expecting Italian A TYR to execute some action in MUN,
but that's more of a hunch than anything.
> To quote another Eric, "Bon Chance". [Looking at that Eric's
> position in the
> two games I'm watching.] Hmm. Perhaps quoting that Eric isn't the best
> portent in the world right now. :)
:-) My (past, not Pinnacle) experience with Eric was C1, of course, and he
advised the Russian player in Teachme3, in which I played Germany, guided by
the estimable Brent Warner. As I read the archive, Eric at one point in
particular delivered a solid blow to my chances there. . . It ended in a
FAR(g) draw - I survived as an unnecessary French puppet in STP. But I
survived. :o)
Anyway, that's what I know from Eric. Also he was eliminated as Italy in
Gutsy2, though I wasn't following that very closely.
While we wait - what exactly do you think Tony will do? It may change my
moves slightly.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> While we wait - what exactly do you think Tony will do? It may change
> my moves slightly.
Well, that's a tough one. I think it's likely that he will move Ber-Kie, but
I could also see him holding and hoping for your support (don't know if
you've offered it). He could also try moving Ber-Pru if he's really angry
with me, but I don't think he will. For Ruh, I was assuming that he had
offered Ruh-Bel, and that is what caused you to change your request for
support. If he has agreed to that with you, I think it is more likely that he
will move there hoping for your support than that he will do what he's talked
to me about. I have not offered him support into Mun, for what that's worth,
so he's not likely to move there.
But as you say, he is the dervish. If I had a *real* sense of what he was
going to do, I would probably help him acheive it, because just about
anything he wants to accomplish would probably help me by slowing down
France. But I think he's still agreeing to moves to get me to piss you off,
and he's well past my "crying wolf" threshold. There's an outside chance he'd
order support for Bur-Mun. Gets a potential friend in Mun, and if the offer
is believed, it keeps France from attacking Ruh. But if what France has told
me is accurate, he thinks you are coming after me, and wants to be in a
position to benefit from my anger when you do. So I wouldn't think he's
taking Tony's offers of support seriously; he expects to get all the support
he needs from me.
That's all speculation based on nothing more than thinking about the board.
The only firm info I have that I believe is that Tony offered to use Ber
against Kie and that Erik wants Mun in Spring. Oh, and Erik might or might
not vacate Iri. :)
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> Well, that's a tough one. I think it's likely that he will
> move Ber-Kie, but
> I could also see him holding and hoping for your support
> (don't know if
> you've offered it). He could also try moving Ber-Pru if he's
> really angry
> with me, but I don't think he will. For Ruh, I was assuming
> that he had
> offered Ruh-Bel, and that is what caused you to change your
> request for
> support. If he has agreed to that with you, I think it is
> more likely that he
> will move there hoping for your support than that he will do
> what he's talked
signon ec2 elberon
press to i
Andy -
Can you tell me what A TYR is doing?
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Re: TYR - for my interest in MUN - I have no intention of sharing your
answer with others, but it affects my play if you are influencing MUN.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Thanks for the insight. It's A RUH & A HOL I'm most interested in, of
course. . .
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
I have now gotten a press from Tony saying you are not leaving IRI as we
discussed. I don't believe him - why would I, after all our correspondence
with him - but I write this note to you to let you know that, if you hear
something similar from him about *me*, it's not true - for all the reasons
we discussed, you and I are still moving forward as we'd planned. Me to the
north, you to the south.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> signon ec2 elberon
> press to i
> Andy -
> Can you tell me what A TYR is doing?
Whoops! You'll need to change that password. And hey -- if you hear about A
Tyr, do you mind letting me know what he says?
Now I'm off to verify your orders. :) (I hope it's obvious that this is a
joke!)
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> > Andy -
> > Can you tell me what A TYR is doing?
>
> Whoops! You'll need to change that password. And hey -- if
> you hear about A
> Tyr, do you mind letting me know what he says?
>
> Now I'm off to verify your orders. :) (I hope it's obvious
> that this is a joke!)
>
> --- Eric
Cripes!
Ben
Message from England to England
*sigh*
Yes, if you're curious, I actually bothered to change the password. Now I
will have to remember it. . .
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Oops! My password's changed! Let's try again:
Eric -
Nothing from Andy yet.
By the way - you did not acknowledge my return on your _Princess Bride_
serve. . .
Busily reading the ecstatic reviews for _Return of the King_ - I should
probably do some work before I go home.
*yawn*
Would you order BAL - KIE instead, please? I'm fiddling around at the last
minute. I don't know whether it will help, but it won't hurt, I don't
think.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> By the way - you did not acknowledge my return on your _Princess Bride_
> serve. . .
Well, since I've spent my last few messages describing the errors of waging a
land war in Asia, I thought I had done my part. <rimshot>
> Busily reading the ecstatic reviews for _Return of the King_
We won't be seeing RotK for another week probably -- our holidays are all
this week and weekend, and we don't expect to breathe for another few days
still. And despite having read the books, I'm a spoiler-phobe. Probably won't
read reviews until after the first viewing.
> Would you order BAL - KIE instead, please? I'm fiddling around at the
> last minute. I don't know whether it will help, but it won't hurt, I
> don't think.
Is there an important reason? I really don't want to lose my fleet from Bal
if I don't have to. If I did inadvertently end up in Kie, it becomes dicey
whether I can get the support to take Ber in Fall. I think fleets in Bal and
Hel are important for us to project enough power into the northern coast,
with all the FG armies that we're facing. They have two levels (coast and
inland) of support, so we need two levels of support on our end to be able to
make way against them -- or at least that's how I see it.
For now I have *not* changed my order, but let me know what you are thinking
if it is important. I'm taking the "I'm fiddling" to mean that this isn't a
critical change you are asking for, and so assume this stance is not a slap
in the face of any sort.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to England
>
> Andy -
> Re: TYR - for my interest in MUN - I have no intention of sharing your
> answer with others, but it affects my play if you are influencing MUN.
Im supporting Vienna.
What are your plans....I hope you are going to kick Erik's lying ass all
over western europe
Message from Russia to England
I haven't heard back from you, and will need to leave shortly. I'm assuming
Bal S Den-Kie is still good enough.
--- Eric
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Im supporting Vienna.
Music to my ears.
> What are your plans....I hope you are going to kick Erik's lying ass all
> over western europe
:-) When will you be available to put in a boot of your own, so to speak?
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Pretty soon I'm giving up and changing my password /back/. Here goes again:
Eric -
> > By the way - you did not acknowledge my return on your _Princess Bride_
> > serve. . .
>
> Well, since I've spent my last few messages describing the errors of
waging a
> land war in Asia, I thought I had done my part. <rimshot>
You deserve the rimshot. Nice one. But you're no match for my brains.
> > Busily reading the ecstatic reviews for _Return of the King_
>
> We won't be seeing RotK for another week probably -- our holidays are all
> this week and weekend, and we don't expect to breathe for another few days
> still. And despite having read the books, I'm a spoiler-phobe. Probably
won't
> read reviews until after the first viewing.
Understandable.
> > Would you order BAL - KIE instead, please? I'm fiddling around at the
> > last minute. I don't know whether it will help, but it won't hurt, I
> > don't think.
>
> Is there an important reason? I really don't want to lose my fleet from
Bal
> if I don't have to. If I did inadvertently end up in Kie, it becomes dicey
> whether I can get the support to take Ber in Fall. I think fleets in Bal
and
> Hel are important for us to project enough power into the northern coast,
> with all the FG armies that we're facing. They have two levels (coast and
> inland) of support, so we need two levels of support on our end to be
able to
> make way against them -- or at least that's how I see it.
>
> For now I have *not* changed my order, but let me know what you are
thinking
> if it is important. I'm taking the "I'm fiddling" to mean that this isn't
a
> critical change you are asking for, and so assume this stance is not a
slap
> in the face of any sort.
Don't change your order. That way I don't have to make up my mind.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> > What are your plans....I hope you are going to kick Erik's lying ass all
> > over western europe
> :-) When will you be available to put in a boot of your own, so to speak?
soon.
Message from England to England
That press I wrote to Russia - asking for DEN - KIE - was stupid stupid
stupid. I would never have written it but for boredom, which is not
acceptable. I let him know he basically could have KIE and DEN and BER and
he is apparently not going to try to take advantage.
God bless him, but I am /much/ more horrified about having sent that, then
about the errant press, which was harmless.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
If Erik does go abandoned, I am not really comfortable with the thought of you replacing him again. Please do not be offended when I ask, is it ok for someone else to have a turn.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> Eric -
> If Erik does go abandoned, I am not really comfortable with the thought
> of you replacing him again. Please do not be offended when I ask, is it
> ok for someone else to have a turn.
Context please?
I'm sure I'm just being stupid here (remember: I am no match for your brains)
but I have no idea what you are talking about. I'd guess it's a joke or
misdirected press, because I obviously can't replace another player in the
same game. But it sounds so sincere that I think you might really mean it.
--- Eric
P.S. Anybody want a peanut?
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> > If Erik does go abandoned, I am not really comfortable with the thought
> > of you replacing him again. Please do not be offended when I ask, is it
> > ok for someone else to have a turn.
>
> Context please?
Hm. I wrote this earlier at the office party, where I'd been drinking. I
had thought you came in as a sort of endgame replacement for Erik in C1,
but no doubt it was the alcohol. Sorry!
> same game. But it sounds so sincere that I think you might really mean it.
>
> --- Eric
>
> P.S. Anybody want a peanut?
Enough already!
Ben
Message from Russia to England
>> P.S. Anybody want a peanut?
>Enough already!
Must...resist...urge to respond...with..."As you wish".....
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> Must...resist...urge to respond...with..."As you wish".....
Ok.
Maybe you could write it tomorrow, if you want.
Ben
Message from France to all
Sorry, all. I had a big issue involving my e-mail provider that has now
been fixed.
Erik
Austria: Army Budapest → Serbia (*bounce, dislodged*)
Austria: Fleet Trieste → Albania
Austria: Army Vienna SUPPORT Fleet Trieste (*void*)
England: Fleet Denmark → Helgoland Bight
England: Fleet Kiel → Holland (*bounce*)
England: Fleet Liverpool → Irish Sea
England: Fleet London → English Channel
England: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet Kiel → Holland
France: Army Belgium SUPPORT Army Holland
France: Army Burgundy → Ruhr (*bounce*)
France: Army Gascony → Marseilles
France: Army Holland SUPPORT Army Belgium (*cut*)
France: Fleet Irish Sea → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Fleet Marseilles → Gulf of Lyon
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) → Western Mediterranean (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Berlin → Kiel (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Ruhr → Holland (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Greece (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Naples → Tyrrhenian Sea
Italy: Fleet Tunis → Western Mediterranean (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Tyrolia SUPPORT Austrian Army Vienna
Italy: Army Venice → Rome
Russia: Fleet Baltic Sea SUPPORT English Fleet Denmark → Kiel (*void*)
Russia: Army Bohemia → Munich
Russia: Army Galicia → Budapest
Russia: Fleet Rumania SUPPORT Turkish Army Bulgaria
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Fleet Rumania
Russia: Army Silesia → Berlin (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Sweden → Norway
Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea → Greece
Turkey: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Bulgaria
Turkey: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Fleet Aegean Sea → Greece
Turkey: Army Serbia SUPPORT Russian Army Galicia → Budapest
Turkey: Fleet Smyrna → Aegean Sea
|