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Message from England to all
So! I've set draw. Let's see if we can have one this phase.
If not, there is always next phase.
Ben
Message from Russia to Italy
> When you took Venice from me 3 turns ago, that is where you left me.
>
> If you had left me at 4, where I could be useful, I would have considered
> helping you. But you once again, did what you said you wouldnt and took
> dots from me while getting me into other dots just to string me along.
FWIW, (and I imagine it ain't much) I did not expect to get into Venice. Our
moves were coordinated assuming that Erik was going to try to hold out
against you. You knew that he was going to give up Rom (or was it Nap? I
forget) but didn't tell me, so you were the only one that knew that Tri-Ven
might succeedI actually told you that one of the reasons I wanted to
rearrange our orders was so that I could tap you in Ven (your original
suggestion was that Ven support Nap-Rom). (I'd have to look at the board to
get the details, but my line had a weakness that Ven could have supported me
against, and I liked Tri-Ven to cut that potential support).
At the same time, I doubt you'd be helping me even if you were at four (see
below).
> You never promised me anything, so I dont hold it against you. But as I
> have said for years, I play online to make my ftf game sharper, and in a
> ftf game, you rarely eliminate a smaller power that can help you solo,
> just to make the draw smaller. You might eliminate a smaller power, if you
> dont have any chance of soloing, but not if they can get you to a solo.
> You were playing for the draw, not for the solo.
>
> Which proved dead on to me that you intended to play this game like about
> 80-95% of the people who play on the judges, and eliminate people, simply
> becuase they can.
Here you are wrong about my (recent) motivations. I will grant that now that
I've played FtF I understand that there's a different culture about *how* I
might acheive what I've been trying to acheive, but for the record:
We were at a point where you were in a four way and you had throw potential
(prior to Bur-Mar I did not think you had throw potential, and I was working
to eliminate you "because I could"). You had no immediate motivation to throw
to me, and I had continued discussions with EF about eliminating you. But EF
would not work in an obvious way to eliminate you because they see your throw
potential. If I just sat, we'd stay at a four way. You see as well as I do
that Erik and Ben worked with you the last few turns because of that.
If I just sat still, you would have no motivation to throw, and EF would
leave you, and we'd have the four way. I have no problem with that, but it's
not the best possible ending. So I started working to ensure that you COULD
be eliminated but that you kept your throw capability. If I just wanted you
eliminated "because I could", I'd have backed off of Italy and given Erik the
dots instead of taking them myself. Or I would have backed out of Mun before
taking your last dots. Either guarantees no solo. But as noted above, just
sitting still also guarantees no solo. The whole point of my last several
moves was to force the position we have now, based largely on your statement
a few turns ago that "I'd rather lose to a solo than to a three way".
I know you have no reason to believe me now, but if you read the press log,
you will see that even despite the public broadcast from Ben, I have written
each of Ben and Erik privately and asked, "are we really done? should I just
set draw?" and the answer from each of them has been much less conclusive
than whatever they are telling you and what we are seeing in the broadcasts.
In fact here's the message I sent to the observers just before this phase
processed:
> Message from ericgood@pacbell.net as Russia to Russia in 'c2':
>[.....]
>Ironically, I'd probably set draw right now (for the same reason as Ben --
to
>stop dragging out the likely inevitable) if EF would just give me a clear,
>coordinated signal that they are not going to try to winnow Andy and that
>they are going to just sit and be defensive. But Ben's broadcast not
>withstanding, doesn't his press leave it pretty open for me to assume he
>might be willing to consider whittling Andy? And Erik's press indicates that
>he'd be open to it and will discuss it with Ben.
>
>As always, the primary reason I'm interested in seeing Andy whittled is
>because he might still decide to move BER. Sure I wouldn't mind the extra
>nicety of a three way rather than a four way, but if I really *just* wanted
>to whittle Andy, obviously I wouldn't still be holding Mun.
>[....]
The logic of the last paragraph is that as long as *I'm* being told you may
be whittled, you may get that sense yourself by "osmosis" or something.
I realize there's kind of a backwards logic in this given that you have
declared to me that you are not throwing. Whether I'm right that they would
have (or will) eliminate you once I back out of Mun doesn't actually get me a
solo if you don't believe it. But maybe at least I'll get a chance to say "I
told you so". :)
Anyway, the point is that I'm not (at this point at least) whittling "just
because I can". I recognize that my lack of skill, experience, and in this
case subtlety may make it look otherwise to you, and I don't hold it against
you that you are taking it that way, but I thought I'd point out that there
was a solo-based logic (however flawed or poorly implemented) behind my
moves. And since really, at this point it is only what you believe that
matters (Ben *will* support you as long as I hold Mun/Sil/Pru -- I'm talking
about what happens when I don't anymore) I don't see any risk in sharing
these comments with you prior to the game actually ending.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
> > When you took Venice from me 3 turns ago, that is where you left me.
> >
> > If you had left me at 4, where I could be useful, I would have considered
> > helping you. But you once again, did what you said you wouldnt and took
> > dots from me while getting me into other dots just to string me along.
>
> FWIW, (and I imagine it ain't much) I did not expect to get into Venice. Our
> moves were coordinated assuming that Erik was going to try to hold out
> against you. You knew that he was going to give up Rom (or was it Nap? I
> forget) but didn't tell me, so you were the only one that knew that Tri-Ven
> might succeedI actually told you that one of the reasons I wanted to
> rearrange our orders was so that I could tap you in Ven (your original
> suggestion was that Ven support Nap-Rom). (I'd have to look at the board to
> get the details, but my line had a weakness that Ven could have supported me
> against, and I liked Tri-Ven to cut that potential support).
I dont understand the logic here.
But after I announced that I was doing the support from Venice, you ASKED
me to move it to Tuscany. I did and you walked in behind me.
This made it indelibly clear to me that no matter what you said for the
rest of the game, you intention was to eliminate me.
> At the same time, I doubt you'd be helping me even if you were at four (see
> below).
At Four I can try to help you solo, and if it doesnt work, pretty much be
guaranteed to Not be cut out of the draw, not so at less than 4.
> > You never promised me anything, so I dont hold it against you. But as I
> > have said for years, I play online to make my ftf game sharper, and in a
> > ftf game, you rarely eliminate a smaller power that can help you solo,
> > just to make the draw smaller. You might eliminate a smaller power, if you
> > dont have any chance of soloing, but not if they can get you to a solo.
> > You were playing for the draw, not for the solo.
> >
> > Which proved dead on to me that you intended to play this game like about
> > 80-95% of the people who play on the judges, and eliminate people, simply
> > becuase they can.
>
> Here you are wrong about my (recent) motivations. I will grant that now that
> I've played FtF I understand that there's a different culture about *how* I
> might acheive what I've been trying to acheive, but for the record:
>
> We were at a point where you were in a four way and you had throw potential
> (prior to Bur-Mar I did not think you had throw potential, and I was working
> to eliminate you "because I could"). You had no immediate motivation to throw
> to me, and I had continued discussions with EF about eliminating you. But EF
> would not work in an obvious way to eliminate you because they see your throw
> potential. If I just sat, we'd stay at a four way. You see as well as I do
> that Erik and Ben worked with you the last few turns because of that.
Yes.
> If I just sat still, you would have no motivation to throw, and EF would
> leave you, and we'd have the four way. I have no problem with that, but it's
> not the best possible ending. So I started working to ensure that you COULD
> be eliminated but that you kept your throw capability. If I just wanted you
> eliminated "because I could", I'd have backed off of Italy and given Erik the
> dots instead of taking them myself.
But that gives you ZERO chance to solo.
Or I would have backed out of Mun before
> taking your last dots. Either guarantees no solo. But as noted above, just
> sitting still also guarantees no solo. The whole point of my last several
> moves was to force the position we have now, based largely on your statement
> a few turns ago that "I'd rather lose to a solo than to a three way".
Yep.
> I know you have no reason to believe me now, but if you read the press log,
> you will see that even despite the public broadcast from Ben, I have written
> each of Ben and Erik privately and asked, "are we really done? should I just
> set draw?" and the answer from each of them has been much less conclusive
> than whatever they are telling you and what we are seeing in the broadcasts.
> In fact here's the message I sent to the observers just before this phase
> processed:
>
> > Message from ericgood@pacbell.net as Russia to Russia in 'c2':
> >[.....]
> >Ironically, I'd probably set draw right now (for the same reason as Ben --
> to
> >stop dragging out the likely inevitable) if EF would just give me a clear,
> >coordinated signal that they are not going to try to winnow Andy and that
> >they are going to just sit and be defensive. But Ben's broadcast not
> >withstanding, doesn't his press leave it pretty open for me to assume he
> >might be willing to consider whittling Andy? And Erik's press indicates that
> >he'd be open to it and will discuss it with Ben.
> >
> >As always, the primary reason I'm interested in seeing Andy whittled is
> >because he might still decide to move BER. Sure I wouldn't mind the extra
> >nicety of a three way rather than a four way, but if I really *just* wanted
> >to whittle Andy, obviously I wouldn't still be holding Mun.
> >[....]
Noted.
> The logic of the last paragraph is that as long as *I'm* being told you may
> be whittled, you may get that sense yourself by "osmosis" or something.
>
> I realize there's kind of a backwards logic in this given that you have
> declared to me that you are not throwing. Whether I'm right that they would
> have (or will) eliminate you once I back out of Mun doesn't actually get me a
> solo if you don't believe it. But maybe at least I'll get a chance to say "I
> told you so". :)
>
> Anyway, the point is that I'm not (at this point at least) whittling "just
> because I can". I recognize that my lack of skill, experience, and in this
> case subtlety may make it look otherwise to you, and I don't hold it against
> you that you are taking it that way, but I thought I'd point out that there
> was a solo-based logic (however flawed or poorly implemented) behind my
> moves. And since really, at this point it is only what you believe that
> matters (Ben *will* support you as long as I hold Mun/Sil/Pru -- I'm talking
> about what happens when I don't anymore) I don't see any risk in sharing
> these comments with you prior to the game actually ending.
Stop being self depricating...you are playing a very good game.
Andy
Message from Italy to England and France
Eric tells me that the only reason that he hasnt set draw is that you guys
havent given him a clear, concise message about your intentions to
support me indefinitely in Berlin.
Andy
Message from France to England and Italy
>
> Eric tells me that the only reason that he hasnt set draw is that you
> guys
> havent given him a clear, concise message about your intentions to
> support me indefinitely in Berlin.
>
We've made it pretty clear to him that with him so close to the solo
precipice, we intend to set draw and keep doing so. His response is
usually along the lines of "Are you suuuuuurrre you want a 4-way?" He is
certainly trying to shuffle us up enough to loosen one final center.
Erik
Message from Russia to Italy
> But after I announced that I was doing the support from Venice, you ASKED
> me to move it to Tuscany. I did and you walked in behind me.
>
> This made it indelibly clear to me that no matter what you said for the
> rest of the game, you intention was to eliminate me.
I understand this from your point of view (now) though I didn't at the the
time. Much like when I took Venice last time and I didn't expect to be there.
I really did think I had said something along the lines of "and I like that
better because it allows me to tap Ven as well", though I recognize I had
said it earlier in the conversation. Certainly the fact that you (appeared
to) coordinate with Erik the moves, it appears that you didn't recall my
statement from earlier.
>> If I just wanted you
>> eliminated "because I could", I'd have backed off of Italy and given Erik
the
>> dots instead of taking them myself.
>
> But that gives you ZERO chance to solo.
But that's my point. If I were just in it for the whittlin', I'd settle for a
zero chance of soloing.
* Not moving gives me zero chance at a solo without EF's help.
* Moving gives a zero chance of a solo without your help.
* Odds of help from any of EFI are near zero.
Any rational person might set draw right now. :)
But by your own logic, once the solo is NOT possible, there is no reason not
to eliminate you. That is why I keep telling you that letting you be whittled
safely (by giving up the solo chance) is my next step, and I've been pretty
clear with all three of you that this is what I'm doing. (See below about
"lack of subtlety").
> Stop being self depricating...you are playing a very good game.
Sorry, I shouldn't have stuck the "skill" part in there (consequence of
trying to write press at 5AM local time).
I'm still convinced there must have been a better way to try to reach the
goal I was trying for. My press to Ben fairly shouted "whatever you say to
me, you'd better as hell make sure Andy thinks you won't eliminate him" --
which is what I meant by "lack of subtlety". And while all of my moves for
the last several turns have been basically doomed to failure, I still can't
see any better road to get me to a solo -- which is what I meant by lack of
experience. But fundamentally, it doesn't look like I'm going to get the
solo, regardless of what Ben will or won't do in later turns, and if that's
the case, then my basic thesis is proven (with or without self-deprication):
there had to be a better way. :)
--- Eric
Message from England to France, Italy, and Russia
> > Eric tells me that the only reason that he hasnt set draw is that you
> > guys
> > havent given him a clear, concise message about your intentions to
> > support me indefinitely in Berlin.
:-) I thought my broadcast did just that.
Really, as much as I am indebted to my friend in Paris, the decision is
mine, not ours, and I have set draw. Is that not a clear enough statement?
I do not intend to eliminate Andy. As I said before, anyone who wishes to
discuss this with me privately, should feel free to do so, though noone has
seemed to want to go into this very much.
Is it possible for Russia to withdraw to the point where it could be done
safely? I suppose. I do not intend to whittle for the sake of whittling.
If you've got something else, let me know.
I hope you don't mind me extending this press chain to include Eric. It
relates to him too.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> I hope you don't mind me extending this press chain to include Eric. It
> relates to him too.
I dont have any problem at all
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
>> I hope you don't mind me extending this press chain to include Eric. It
>> relates to him too.
> I dont have any problem at all
The apology was for Erik. I didn't think you'd care.
I'm working. What are you doing - go to sleep, or have another drink. ;-)
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> >> I hope you don't mind me extending this press chain to include Eric. It
> >> relates to him too.
> > I dont have any problem at all
> The apology was for Erik. I didn't think you'd care.
>
> I'm working. What are you doing - go to sleep, or have another drink. ;-)
I just got home from coaching my hockey team.
Im unwinding.
Message from England to Italy
> I just got home from coaching my hockey team.
>
> Im unwinding.
Oh. Then bourbon.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> >
> > Im unwinding.
> Oh. Then bourbon.
Well...yes actually...Bookers
Andy
Message from England to Italy
> > Oh. Then bourbon.
> Well...yes actually...Bookers
Ahh. Niiice.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
>
> > > Oh. Then bourbon.
> > Well...yes actually...Bookers
>
> Ahh. Niiice.
>
Well....yes....
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Well....yes....
Now you're up early.
I have reached a point of exhaustion at which I keep losing the pointer on the computer screen, because I'm trying to operate the mouse half asleep, with my eyes closed. But my shift is almost over.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> Andy -
> > Well....yes....
> Now you're up early.
>
> I have reached a point of exhaustion at which I keep losing the pointer
on the computer screen, because I'm trying to operate the mouse half
asleep, with my eyes closed. But my shift is almost over.
Ben....
I forgot what you do for living but I do rmemeber its like being a judge
or something....
If someone lets you sleep, do they get a lighter sentence...
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
I'm a prosecutor stationed at the Baltimore city jail. I am responsible for charging/not charging the various cases that come in overnight. Last night my partner & I probably reviewed in excess of 200 cases.
> If someone lets you sleep, do they get a lighter sentence...
Hmm. Alas, I have nothing to do with sentencing, while I'm here.
Still, an interesting thought. Perhaps a lighter charge?
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> I'm a prosecutor stationed at the Baltimore city jail. I am
responsible for charging/not charging the various cases that come in
overnight. Last night my partner & I probably reviewed in excess of 200
cases.
>
Ben...I do not envy you...I have experience with your place of employment,
mostly bailing people out.
> > If someone lets you sleep, do they get a lighter sentence...
> Hmm. Alas, I have nothing to do with sentencing, while I'm here.
True.
> Still, an interesting thought. Perhaps a lighter charge?
you could call it plea bargaining....
in all seriousness....be careful on your drive home....when it happens...I
think its about 7 minutes away.
Message from England to all
Ok, moves for the next couple of seasons are in. Wait is off, draw is on.
Ben
England: Fleet Baltic Sea SUPPORT Italian Army Berlin
England: Fleet Barents Sea SUPPORT Army St Petersburg
England: Fleet Denmark SUPPORT Army Kiel
England: Army Edinburgh → North Sea → Norway
England: Fleet Gulf of Bothnia SUPPORT Army St Petersburg
England: Army Kiel SUPPORT Italian Army Berlin
England: Fleet North Atlantic Ocean HOLD
England: Fleet North Sea CONVOY Army Edinburgh → Norway
England: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Russian Army Munich (*void*)
England: Army St Petersburg HOLD
France: Army Burgundy → Munich
France: Fleet Marseilles SUPPORT Fleet Spain (south coast) → Gulf of Lyon
France: Army North Africa SUPPORT Fleet Tunis
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) → Gulf of Lyon
France: Fleet Tunis HOLD
France: Fleet Western Mediterranean SUPPORT Fleet Spain (south coast) → Gulf of Lyon
Italy: Army Berlin SUPPORT English Army Ruhr → Munich (*void*)
Russia: Army Apulia HOLD
Russia: Army Bohemia SUPPORT Army Prussia → Silesia
Russia: Fleet Constantinople → Aegean Sea
Russia: Fleet Greece → Ionian Sea
Russia: Fleet Ionian Sea → Naples
Russia: Army Livonia → Warsaw
Russia: Army Moscow HOLD
Russia: Army Munich → Tyrolia
Russia: Fleet Naples → Rome
Russia: Army Piedmont HOLD
Russia: Army Prussia → Silesia
Russia: Army Rome → Tuscany
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Moscow
Russia: Army Silesia → Galicia
Russia: Army Venice HOLD
Russia: Army Warsaw → Ukraine
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