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Message from Observer to Observer
Let me introduce myself - my name is Dan Miller - I was Italy in the
first comments game, and look to amaze and enthrall you all with my
vim and vigor in this game.
So who else is out there in commentator-land?
Message from Observer to Observer
At 9:56 PM +0000 9/30/03, fonnny wrote:
>Let me introduce myself - my name is Dan Miller - I was Italy in the
>first comments game, and look to amaze and enthrall you all with my
>vim and vigor in this game.
>
>So who else is out there in commentator-land?
Let me introduce myself - my name is Andrew Albright - I was Turkey
in the first comments game, you might remember me.
Message from Observer to Observer
At 1-10-2003 00:48, you wrote:
>At 9:56 PM +0000 9/30/03, fonnny wrote:
> >Let me introduce myself - my name is Dan Miller - I was Italy in the
> >first comments game, and look to amaze and enthrall you all with my
> >vim and vigor in this game.
> >
> >So who else is out there in commentator-land?
>
>
>Let me introduce myself - my name is Andrew Albright - I was Turkey
>in the first comments game, you might remember me.
Let me introduce myself - my name is Oscar Dijkhoff - I was a commentator
in the first comments game, you might remember me as well.
Message from Observer to Observer
Hi - my name is Ashish Shah - a bit of a mouthful, so try Ash.
Used to play way too much dip. Enjoyed watching last time.
Message from Observer to Observer
> So who else is out there in commentator-land?
Hello hello? My friends told me to sign up here for a great game
called Diplomacy - is this the right place? I'm not sure how to
play, but it sure looks like fun!
Cheers,
Scott Sisson
Message from Observer to Observer
>So who else is out there in commentator-land?
This is Tamas Hauer, used-to-be France@comments. Good to be on the other
side of the fence.
As I understand we will be in the habit of declaring our predictions. So
here I go (first in!):
A Mos-Ukr
A Wal-Gal
F Bla-Sev
F Stp-Gob
F Eng-Nth
F Edi-Nwg
A Lvp-Yor
A Mun-Ruh
A Ber-Kie
F Kie-Den
A Ven H
A Rom-Apu
F Nap-ION
F Ank-BLA
A Con-Bul
A Smy-Con
A Vie-Gal
A Bud-Ser
F Tri-Alb
F Bre-MAO
A Par-Bur
A Mar-Spa
I wonder if this will prove to be any worse than my predictions after I see
the press:-)
Tamas
Message from Observer to Observer
WRT predicitions. Will we be able to see the (preliminary) orders and set
draw this time around? I think we should.
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
>WRT predicitions. Will we be able to see the (preliminary) orders and set
>draw this time around? I think we should.
I think that set draw is a good idea. Orders, I am not so sure about. I
think it stimulates more thinking if we do not know the answers :-)
?
Tamas
Message from Observer to Observer
> >WRT predicitions. Will we be able to see the (preliminary) orders and set
> >draw this time around? I think we should.
>
> I think that set draw is a good idea. Orders, I am not so sure
> about. I think it stimulates more thinking if we do not know the
> answers :-) ? Tamas
Isn't the idea of comments that the commentators have all the information and
use this for analysis?
In the previous games I liked the predictions not because of the predicted
moves, but because of the analysis to support them.
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
PS
I rather see "he should do this or that" discussions than "is he doing this
or that?".
Message from Observer to Observer
At 15:56 +0200 10/1/03, Oscar Dijkhoff wrote:
> > >WRT predicitions. Will we be able to see the (preliminary) orders and set
>> >draw this time around? I think we should.
>>
>> I think that set draw is a good idea. Orders, I am not so sure
>> about. I think it stimulates more thinking if we do not know the
>> answers :-) ? Tamas
>
>Isn't the idea of comments that the commentators have all the information and
>use this for analysis?
>
>In the previous games I liked the predictions not because of the predicted
>moves, but because of the analysis to support them.
I agree. I dont see that guessing is as useful with seeing what the
players are ordering.
I want to comment on what they are saying and what they are ordering
(and if possible when).
Message from Observer to Observer
>>> I think that set draw is a good idea. Orders, I am not so sure
>>> about. I think it stimulates more thinking if we do not know the
>>> answers :-) ? Tamas
>>
>>Isn't the idea of comments that the commentators have all the information
>and
>>use this for analysis?
>>
>>In the previous games I liked the predictions not because of the predicted
>>moves, but because of the analysis to support them.
>
>I agree. I dont see that guessing is as useful with seeing what the
>players are ordering.
>
>I want to comment on what they are saying and what they are ordering
>(and if possible when).
This is a good point, but I have two counterarguments:
1. What I said above: in 'comments' a substantial portion of discussion was
initated by the predictions. We might be doing ourselves a favor by letting
it go that way. But I will not stretch arms on this because the other point
has advantages too.
2. OTOH, how would you do this? My preference is to receive individual messages
on both c2 groups. Shall we get a mail every time a player changes his orders?
Or a cron job, but then how often? Every day seems pretty useless for me
because most players submit on the last day anyway. Every hour? Hope not.
Tamas
Message from Observer to Observer
Tamas wrote:
> 1. What I said above: in 'comments' a substantial portion of
> discussion was initated by the predictions.
A much more substantial portion was initiated by judge generated messages,
though. For instance a piece of press or the moves/builds being adjudicated.
The predictions were just a format to present analysis. The discussion
initiated by them focussed mostly on that analysis, not on the predictions
themselves. A similar but more simple format for overall analysis that was
also used is just summing up the powers. I can live with that.
Also the predictions were an attempt to counter the lack of information,
which just proves there was in fact a lack of information.
> 2. OTOH, how would you do this? My preference is to receive
> individual messages on both c2 groups.
I think that just like the other judge generated messages the orders should
go to c2f. C2b strictly for commentators.
> Shall we get a mail every time a player changes his orders?
Yes. If possible.
> Or a cron job,
As a second choice.
> but then how often?
> Every day seems pretty useless for me because most players submit
> on the last day anyway. Every hour? Hope not.
Every day. It's a compromise between getting a lot of useless information and
not getting the information when you want it.
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
Hello. My name is Brent Warner. I was a passive observer for
comments. I had actually signed up to play in comments2, but found
that I was still involved in too many games so I gave my spot up.
I'm looking forward to watching this game, as I believe one of the
players is the one that I coached in the teachme series. I'll try to
comment when possible, but I'll probably be lurking most of the
time.
As for the debate on whether to see player's moves, I think that
there is some usefulness in having people try to predict moves (with
an explanation of why). We can always discuss what they should've
done after the moves process. So I vote to not see the player's
moves as they are entered.
Brent
Message from Observer to Observer
Oscar Dijkhoff wrote:
> WRT predicitions. Will we be able to see the (preliminary) orders and set
> draw this time around? I think we should.
I've rewritten the draw script so that the results are a little easier
to read. I'll turn it on as soon as the game starts so everyone can
see what it looks like. After a few days, I'll probably turn it off
again until we get to the end game, since there's really no other
useful information there.
I wasn't planning to show the moves that have been entered. I thought
about it, but there are a few reasons not to.
Pro:
1. it provides a little bit of additional information
Con:
1. it makes it harder to do predictions since you can't predict moves
if you already know them
2. there is no way, short of modifying the judge itself, to get the
moves sent to the list as they are entered. It would have to be done
by a cron job, IOW once a day all moves that have been entered would
be published to the list
3. the file containing the moves contains everything sent to the judge
that the judge did not interpret as a command, thus it may contain
info that should not be seen by the list, such as passwords
4. the moves file is extremely difficult to parse, so if I wrote a
script to send it to the list, I'd probably have to send the entire file
5. except for moves that the player changes, commentators will see all
the moves in a neatly parsed format as soon as the turn processes anyway
6. knowing that power A is going to do x might influence analysis done
of another power. That is knowing A's moves you might overlook the
fact that B doesn't know them and then just discuss B's position as if
those moves were a given
7. the preliminary moves are not needed for analysis. Based on the
position and the diplomatic situation there will be a set of best
possible orders (or multiple sets that are tied for best). Our
analysis should attempt to discuss what that best set is. Seeing the
actual orders early would merely allow us to say "that's the best
order set" or "that's not the best order set".
Points #3 and #4 above are the most important, followed by #1. Point
#6 is a little weak since we'll know things the players don't anyway,
but if there's a guessing situation. knowing which way A is guessing
may make us forget that B has to guess too. So, anyway, I don't plan
to show the preliminary moves.
One thing I was planning on doing this game, I'm gonna broadcast a
message once per year (probably once every second year after a little
while) reminding players that they can send press to themselves to
explain their plans.
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
As was discussed during the previous game, I've set up two groups for
Comments 2. c2b is the discussion group and c2f is the game press
group. Since c2f will probably get alot of messages, you might want to
receive a daily digest there. OTOH, c2b will probably have many fewer
messages. So, unless you have a good reason not to, I suggest that you
receive individual messages for that list.
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
>
>
>One thing I was planning on doing this game, I'm gonna broadcast a
>message once per year (probably once every second year after a little
>while) reminding players that they can send press to themselves to
>explain their plans.
I think this is the most important addition to comments2.
In fact, if it were possible, the best scenario would be that a power
had to send press to himself/herself as part of submitting valid
moves.
Message from Observer to Observer
By the way, do we know that everyone has read the "House Rules" -
specifically regarding the obligation to reduce the size of the draw if reasonably
possible?
Message from Observer to Observer
Thanks Greg for the respons. I hope you don't mind me commenting on it a bit.
You make it seem like there is a lot of con and only one pro. The pro is
indeed clear: information earlier and extra. You downplay this extra
information, but I think it's more valuable than the prediction game.
As for the cons:
Number 1. The predictions in the previous game were not very accurate. I do
not think they are very valuable. The analysis that accompanies them is,
but this is also possible without the predictions. All in all not really an
argument. IMO anyways.
Number 2, 3 and 4 are actually one and the same con: hard to implement. I
will not argue this because I'm no expert on programming or judge code. I
guess it is not a case of just adding an if (orders_submitted && game==c2)
{send orders to c2f} and recompile.
Number 5 is not actually con but a neutral triviality. Yes, of course, at
some point we all get to see the moves. The discussion is about the
extra/earlier information.
Number 6. You already admit that this is a weak argument. I agree. You
could just as well reason the other way around: not knowing that power A
intends to move such and such you do not have the possibility to discuss
the diplomacy that would be best for those intentions.
Number 7 is also not a real con. It is just downplaying the pro. I do not
agree with it. You underestimate the commentators IMO.
All this basically leaves only one con - hard to implement - which is of
course a pretty strong argument.
> One thing I was planning on doing this game, I'm gonna broadcast a
> message once per year (probably once every second year after a
> little while) reminding players that they can send press to
> themselves to explain their plans.
Even more useful than the preliminary moves. I hope they will listen.
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
All,
<delurk>
just a short intro for me as well: I'm Frank Bacher from good old Germany
and have commented on the first game as well even if it wasn't that much
due to too many games. Hope to play in comments three;-)
As far as the discussion is concerned it all boils down to two arguments:
1. and most important: Is it technically achievable for Greg with a
reasonable amount of time (whatever your definition is Greg) and 2. if the
answer is yes:
Are we able to discuss pros and cons of certain moves in hindsight as we
would discuss them before the deadline? Or are they something that simply
has happened and needs no further discussion after the deadline?
To be honest there are pros and cons for both variants mostly depending on
us, the commentators. I personally don't need predictions for discussion as
we should discuss what really happens/should happen and not what may happen
(difference between best solution and probable moves of a player). Otoh it
is very interesting to agree upon some good moves between the commentators
while the players play something else wondering afterwards why they did
what they did.
Anyway to offer a solution:
If every player should give an insight at least once per turn why he moves
and negotiates the way he does, where's the prob getting the players to
give their moves away in that press to self? This would btw kill argument
one above;-) as no work for Greg is involved.
Frank
Message from Observer to Observer
Oscar Dijkhoff <dip@oehoeboeroe.nl> wrote:
>Thanks Greg for the respons. I hope you don't mind me commenting on it a bit.
>
>You make it seem like there is a lot of con and only one pro. The pro is
>indeed clear: information earlier and extra. You downplay this extra
>information, but I think it's more valuable than the prediction game.
I disagree. There are times it might be nice to know the moves
beforehand, but it is nice to still have that little bit of suspense,
wondering exactly what's going to happen.
>As for the cons:
>
>Number 1. The predictions in the previous game were not very accurate. I do
>not think they are very valuable. The analysis that accompanies them is,
>but this is also possible without the predictions. All in all not really an
>argument. IMO anyways.
I agree. The predictions are not worth much. Better to analyse the
situation, and then analyse the moves after they happen. But others
may find the act of prediction itself to be the point of the exercise.
>Number 2, 3 and 4 are actually one and the same con: hard to implement. I
>will not argue this because I'm no expert on programming or judge code. I
>guess it is not a case of just adding an if (orders_submitted && game==c2)
>{send orders to c2f} and recompile.
Well, different aspects of the same con, but important.
>Number 5 is not actually con but a neutral triviality. Yes, of course, at
>some point we all get to see the moves. The discussion is about the
>extra/earlier information.
Get over it. Discuss the moves after they happen, not before. Is it
so hard? People change their orders at the last minute. Some players
don't enter orders until the last minute. A complete set of orders is
not guaranteed until the resolution.
I fear you are generalising from a single case. You would like to see
the orders early, so you assume everyone would also like to see them
early. It isn't necessarily so.
> > One thing I was planning on doing this game, I'm gonna broadcast a
> > message once per year (probably once every second year after a
> > little while) reminding players that they can send press to
> > themselves to explain their plans.
>
>Even more useful than the preliminary moves. I hope they will listen.
I agree completely. Getting the insight into their heads is very
important.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://www.geocities.com/politasau)
Message from Observer to Observer
--- In c2b@yahoogroups.com, Oscar Dijkhoff <dip@o...> wrote:
> At 1-10-2003 00:48, you wrote:
> >At 9:56 PM +0000 9/30/03, fonnny wrote:
> > >Let me introduce myself - my name is Dan Miller - I was Italy in the
> > >first comments game, and look to amaze and enthrall you all with my
> > >vim and vigor in this game.
> > >
> > >So who else is out there in commentator-land?
> >
> >
> >Let me introduce myself - my name is Andrew Albright - I was Turkey
> >in the first comments game, you might remember me.
>
>
> Let me introduce myself - my name is Oscar Dijkhoff - I was a
commentator
> in the first comments game, you might remember me as well.
Mike Dowling, signing on. I also made one or two comments during the
first game. My game load is lighter at the moment, so hopefully I'll
have a bit more to say this time.
Message from Observer to Observer
Greg, can you give us some info on the players?
--
Mike Dowling
(http://www.geocities.com/politasau)
Message from Observer to Observer
Eric Hunter, Nicky of Russia in 'comments'. I'm
watching in digest mode, so my commentary may
be somewhat sporadic.
Message from Observer to Observer
Mike Dowling wrote:
> Greg, can you give us some info on the players?
Absolutely. Last time I listed all the players, by power along with
their JDPR. I plan to do that this time as well. I plan to start the
game about noon tomorrow. At that point I'll know who's playing each
power.
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
Frank Bacher wrote:
>Otoh it is very interesting to agree upon some good moves between the
>commentators
Seems unlikely... with all these opinionated commentators around. ;-)
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
In a message dated 01/10/2003 10:39:26 PM GMT Daylight Time,
greg@spencersoft.com writes:
> Absolutely. Last time I listed all the players, by power along with
> their JDPR. I plan to do that this time as well. I plan to start the
> game about noon tomorrow. At that point I'll know who's playing each
> power.
>
If they have set preference lists, can we also see those?
Message from Observer to Observer
Mike wrote:
>it is nice to still have that little bit of suspense, wondering exactly
>what's going to happen.
Suspense is nice. To stab or not to stab, to comeback or not to comeback,
to throw or not to throw, etc. Suspense is not necessarily related to
knowing the preliminary orders. As soon as you know them you start
wondering about the turn thereafter.
>I fear you are generalising from a single case. You would like to see the
>orders early, so you assume everyone would also like to see them early. It
>isn't necessarily so.
Fact, opinion, lots of grey in between. Don't worry, I realize this.
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Dowling" <politas@excite.com>
There are times it might be nice to know the moves
beforehand, but it is nice to still have that little bit of suspense,
wondering exactly what's going to happen.
------------
Couldn't agree more. There was a point in the first comments game where
there had been talk of the Italian army being convoyed to Edi from Bel, EF
conspiring against G, EG conspiring against F, and FG conspiring against E
(all with Italy trying to avoid one of his centres being taken). I found the
whole thing absolutely fascinating, and the suspense was a key part of it.
Tamas made the point himself at the time that he had no idea what was going
to happen, and I remember being genuinely excited when the moves finally
processed to see what had actually happened - more excited than I normally
am in my own games! (Maybe I should get out more).
Knowing the player's moves in advance would have removed some of the
enjoyment from that part of the game, IMHO. And as has already been
mentioned, in all likelihood final orders would not have been submitted
until close to the deadline, so it is doubtful how much meaningful comments
and analysis could have taken place before the moves processed anyway.
The idea of a player telling us what his intentions were could have
interesting consequences, for example following an accidental (or
deliberate) misaddress of the press to a rival power instead of press to
self. Would be an interesting twist to the old dilemma of whether to own up
to receiving a misaddressed press!
Alastair
PS - quick bio - been playing Dip by email for about 18 months now. Made
intermittent ill-informed comments to the first game, hope to do something
similar this time ;-). Some will suggest that I have already started.
Message from Observer to Observer
Thorf here, generally of r.g.d. fame. :) Don't play much these days, but
I'm GMing teachme3, and was a coach in teachme2... Kibitzed a bit in
comments, but ran out of time somewhat.
Ook,
Thorf
--
<a href="http://tertius.net.au/~thorfinn">thorfinn@tertius.net.au</a>
Those who are mentally and emotionally healthy are those who have
learned when to say yes, when to say no and when to say whoopee.
-- W.S. Krabill
Message from England to Turkey
Greetings Turk. I write you, my most distant neighbor, first - we have Russia in common & of course we are both interested in the plans of all our neighbors in between.
So I hope you and I will correspond often & may it bring us both many dots.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from France to France
Well, this is ironic. No country bedeviled me and contributed to me demise
more than France last game, and my punishment for bad play appears to be
that I must follow in the footsteps of his excellent play. To add insult
to injury, I played a (very quick) game as France about a month ago where
I made an aggregious tactical error that allowed Andy Bartalone to
eviscerate me, and it looks like he's playing this game, too. Let's hope I
don't make the same mistakes twice.
As you may have gathered, I was Germany in the first comments game, and
while I think I showed flashes of excellent play, I was, for the most
part, outmatched. This game, we (you the spectators and I) shall see how
much I learned from reading the commentary from last game, and whether I
can bring my game to the next level and play with the big boys.
For a variety of reasons, I experimented with an unorthodox press style at
the beginning of the last game that didn't really pan out. This game, I
will be playing as voluminously as I can -- my goal is at least one press
to every player every movement phase. You heard it here first -- if I
fail, feel free to harangue me when I'm eliminated.
In addition, I will be doing as much as possible to tune my press style to
each individual player -- chatty players will get chatty e-mails, terse
players will get information more to the point. This doesn't mean mimcry,
just a little adaptation.
Okay, here we go.
Erik
(hereafter to be known as Mr. France)
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Greetings again. I followed the Pitkisser list for awhile but realized PBEM is probably where I belong - I hope the convention went (is going? don't remember) well & I hope you win all the prizes.
I do not have a lot of experience with England & I hope you will give me some pointers about how you play the blue pieces.
Anyway we have Germany & France to discuss, and I imagine Russia too. So let's get a feel for the players & plan from there.
Ben
p.s. I promise hell or high water not to discuss the draw clock.
Message from England to France
Erik -
I'm glad to see you wanted to give comments another shot & I hope the real life concerns that interfered with parts of your game last time spare you this time.
My thinking is right now get a lay of the land, diplomatically speaking, & see where we are. Meet Germany, meet Russia, etc. Of course I do not think we have to be introduced to Italy. :-O
After we've heard from one or two of our neighbors I'd like to start making some long term plans with you. E/F is as dangerous an alliance as R/T, after all, without the nasty nickname.
Also I promise not to be as difficult to work with as Tamas. No offense, Tamas, if you're out there.
Ben
Message from France to England
>
> After we've heard from one or two of our neighbors I'd like to start
> making some long term plans with you. E/F is as dangerous an alliance
> as R/T, after all, without the nasty nickname.
Yes, we can call it the NautJugger and completely confuse the rest of the
board!
Of course I'm giving it another shot. Gotta see if people can learn from
their mistakes, right? And the time constraints I was under last time
have, thankfully, dissipated -- note the prompt reply to your press.
Your approach sounds sensible. While it's good to know that I've got at
least one communicative neighbor, we should wait a day to get a feel for
the competition before we start making plans. On a side note, I actually
just finished a game with Andy, me playing France and him playing Italy,
where, quite frankly, he whipped my butt. I left myself wide open to an
early Italian attack, and he has taught me to never do that again. At
least he knows I'll be watching him this time.
I will get back to you as soon as I've heard some other introductions. For
now, though, I'd say that our early communication is a good sign for
future cooperation.
Erik
Message from France to Italy
Andy:
What is this, some kind of sick joke? Should I just hand Marseilles over
to you now and be done with it?
Seriously, dude, you finished me off nicely in sete -- just keep in mind
that I won't be making those mistakes twice. This is a comments game, now,
so I've got to play well to avenge my past failures.
Anyway, just wanted to drop a quick note before the Diplomacy kicks into
full gear. I would suggest a DMZ, but the last time I did that, it had
about as much authority as a deed for land on the surface of the moon.
When I have a better picture of our neighbors, though, I will certainly be
back with suggestions that are a bit more proactive. Hope you'll do the
same.
Cheers,
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> On a side note, I actually just finished a game with Andy,
> me playing France and him playing Italy, where, quite frankly,
> he whipped my butt. I left myself wide open to an early
> Italian attack, and he has taught me to never do that again. At
> least he knows I'll be watching him this time.
You know, I almost included in my note that he seemed like just the kind of
player to send Italy after France from the beginning. But I didn't, I just
sent you the :-O instead. Heh.
> I'd say that our early communication is a good sign for
> future cooperation.
There isn't as much fresh meat as there was in comments, I don't know if you
checked out the jdpr's, but Germany's was 13xx as I recall & Austria's in
that neighborhood too. And then there's Andy B. . . Anyway, I like your
early press & I agree it's a good sign.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Greetings. Good morning? Trying to count off the hours from Eastern U.S.
to Holland - forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing you are reading this
early a.m.
I recognized your e-mail immediately from the Vermont Group so I went to the
official list to see how many of us are members. Would you believe. . . .
six. All of us but Jason Bennett in Turkey. Hopefully there won't be a
problem with dropouts. Doug would be disappointed.
Concerning Belgium I would like to get it in '01 but that is negotiable.
The door for long-term planning is open. Let's hear from our other
neighbors & figure out something good for us both.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from Italy to France
Erik.....
> What is this, some kind of sick joke? Should I just hand Marseilles over
> to you now and be done with it?
No....that wont be neccesary....hopefully, ever.
> Seriously, dude, you finished me off nicely in sete -- just keep in mind
> that I won't be making those mistakes twice. This is a comments game, now,
> so I've got to play well to avenge my past failures.
And I am ready to work with you to do that.
> Anyway, just wanted to drop a quick note before the Diplomacy kicks into
> full gear. I would suggest a DMZ, but the last time I did that, it had
> about as much authority as a deed for land on the surface of the moon.
Cmon now....it worked for a little while
And it will work for the balance of the game this time...
> When I have a better picture of our neighbors, though, I will certainly be
> back with suggestions that are a bit more proactive. Hope you'll do the
> same.
Well....Tony Vernon is Germany. And he is one of the best players in the
world....as least as good as Tamas.....
Ben Harris isnt a bad player in England....I think you have issues.
I dont know any of the eastern players.....and as you know...I suck at
this game, so I am probably in a world of hurt.
Talk to you soon.
Andy
Message from Italy to England
Ben
How ya doing.
> Greetings again. I followed the Pitkisser list for awhile but realized
PBEM is probably where I belong - I hope the convention went (is going?
don't remember) well & I hope you win all the prizes.
>
Its next weekend and in full swing. Thank you.
> I do not have a lot of experience with England & I hope you will give
me some pointers about how you play the blue pieces.
Well....i have a couple of simple rules....
1. Always open to the Channel.
2. Dont ever give all of your neighbors a reason to attack you.
> Anyway we have Germany & France to discuss, and I imagine Russia too.
So let's get a feel for the players & plan from there.
France is a good player....
Germany is one of the best plyers in the world. Dont believe a word he
says.....he will cut your heart out as soon as talk to you. My suggestion
with him is to get the Russian on your side and kill him.
If I can help....let me know
Andy
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Greetings from one of your many neighbors.
I love playing Russia - it combines the diplomacy challenge of being a
central power with the tactical advantage of being an edge power. The best
of both worlds, if you like it like that.
I recognized your name from the Vermont Group so I went to the official site
to see how many we were. We are - get this - six. Every one of us but
Jason Bennett to your south. Wouldn't it be funny if he dropped out.
To get things started in c2 I imagine you will want to focus in the south.
I intend to try for Norway for a fleet, if that eases your mind, also I
would like to see you get Sweden & I will apply such pressure as I can to
make sure you get it.
Long term E and R can be terrific allies, with so many dots in between. So
let's bear that in mind & look out for each other's interest as things
develop.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Thanks for the tips.
> Germany is one of the best plyers in the world. Dont believe a word he
> says.....he will cut your heart out as soon as talk to you. My suggestion
> with him is to get the Russian on your side and kill him.
> If I can help....let me know
Giving the same idea to Russia can't hurt. A great deal will depend on Austria, who appears to be no slouch if JDPR means anything. ;o)
Ben
Message from Italy to Austria
Good Afternoon.
I dont think we have ever had the pleasure of sharing a board before.
I am a firm believer in the idea that if Italy and Austria fight before
1904 and the Russian and Turk arent completely incompetant....we both die.
I suggest we find a way to help each other.
Have you heard from anyone else.
Andy
Message from Italy to Russia
Good Afternoon Eric...
I hope that all is well.
You know .....IR is one of the strongest alliances on the board....
I am very intrested in working with you. Are we of a like mind here.
Andy
Message from Italy to Turkey
Good Afternoon.
I have no interest in fighting with you. As long as I dont see a strong RT
coming at me.
I hope you would want to keep lines of communication open.
Let me know your thoughts.
Take care
Andy
Message from Italy to Italy
Well...this should be an intresting game....
Erik in France, was France to my Italy in the game SETE on usvg, and its
still going on....so check it out if you want to.
Tony Vernon and Philippe in Germany and Austria are ver good players, Eric
Goodman in Russia is also VERY solid.
I dont know the English or Turk ......
I just want to come out of the gate strong.
Andy
Message from France to Germany
German leader:
Greetings and salutations. As your immediate neighbor, I didn't want to
waste any time introducing myself and establishing some kind of dialogue.
I'm still trying to get the lay of the land, so I don't have any specific
requests or suggestions right now, but there's obviously a lot of
potential for cooperation between the two of us. I know a few of the
players here in the West, and I'll be happy to share what a I know about
them, but the East is sort of a mystery.
Ben Harris, the English player, was a commentator in the last comments
game, in which I played Germany. He seems like a sharp guy with some good
insight into the game. Andy, the Italian player, just whipped me in
another game, so I'm quite familiar with his style of play (and hopefully,
I won't be making the same mistakes twice).
Let me know when you get your embassies cranking, and we can try to hash
out some sort of early plan. I assume you're headed for Holland and
Denmark; as far as I'm concerned, Belgium is open to discussion, and
something that should be resolved sooner rather than later.
Erik
Message from France to England
> There isn't as much fresh meat as there was in comments, I don't know if
> you
> checked out the jdpr's, but Germany's was 13xx as I recall & Austria's
> in
> that neighborhood too. And then there's Andy B. . . Anyway, I like
> your
> early press & I agree it's a good sign.
>
Word on the street is that Germany's a damned fine player. We mustn't let
him get the best of us. I'm writing him as soon as I'm done with this
message, but I think, given his skill, that it would be wise for us to
compare notes early and often. Of course, if we find ourselves all getting
along nicely early on, I'd be willing to entertain a Western Triple that
lets me head south.
I don't know much about the Eastern players. Eric G. was a commentator,
though, I remember that much.
Erik
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
Greetings from distant England.
We have neighbors in common & I am sure much to discuss over time. Also
thinking pretty long-term E and A are natural allies, as England is a naval
western power & Austria an eastern army power.
Particularly with Italy - the dangerous Andy Bartalone - and Russia -
dangerous because it's Russia - we should be in touch often. That said I've
heard nothing from either so far.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from Italy to Germany
Tony.....how are things.
What direction do you see things moving, and do you think we can work
together out of the gate....
let me know
Andy
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben, I forgive you, I just received your press and its 22:16 p.m.
Message to all
Is this our Eric? playing Russia?
ID Email Name JDPR Rating JDPR
Games JDPR Rank
1791 ericg (at) mac.com Eric Goodman 1349.00 5
288 8 0 8.00
What is Jason's JDPR? I couldnt find him.
This must be our Benjamin:
ID Email Name JDPR Rating JDPR Games JDPR Rank RR Games RR Resignations
RR Ratio
6887 benjamin.harris (at) mindspring.com Ben Harris 1012.00 4 3835 4 0
4.00
Message from Observer to Observer
Austria
Philippe Bergeron
Canada
29 years old
JDPR: 1221 - 4 games
DRR: 6 games, 0 resignations
pref list: ERATFGI
England
Benjamin Harris
Maryland, USA
32 years old
JDPR: 923 - 2 games (16435)
DRR: 2 games, 0 resignations
JDPR: 1012 - 4 games
DRR: 4 games, 0 resignations (6887)
pref list: * (The choice of real men, everywhere)
France
Erik Diehn
New York, USA
27 years old
JDPR: 830 - 9 games
DRR: 11 games, 1 resignation
pref list: RFEGTAI
Played Germany in Comments 1
Germany
Tony Vernon
Netherlands
43 years old
JDPR: 1327 - 50 games
DRR: 75 games, 2 resignations
pref list: FRGATIE
Italy
Andy Bartalone
Maryland, USA
37 years old
JDPR: 1085 - 71 games
DRR: 145 games, 0 resignations
pref list: RGFETIA
Played Austria 2 in Comments 1
Russia
Eric Goodman
California, USA
43 years old
JDPR: 1349 - 5 games
DRR: 8 games, 0 resignations
pref list: * (The choice of real men, everywhere)
Turkey
Jason Bennett
Pennsylvania, USA
27 years old
JDPR: 1000 - 0 games? (I couldn't find him listed)
DRR: 0 games, 0 resignations
pref list: [GTE]FRIA
Message from Observer to Observer
Correct me if I'm wrong, but just now a broadcast went out on the c2f, and
nowhere does it say who sent it.
-mark
Message from Observer to Observer
Mark Ballinger wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but just now a broadcast went out on the c2f, and
> nowhere does it say who sent it.
Nope, they don't say. I'll have to announce it each time a player
sends anonymous press.
That one was sent by Germany.
Greg
Message from Germany to France
Hello Eric, greetings to you to neighbour....
> I didn't want to waste any time introducing myself and establishing some
kind of dialogue>
I too agree that everyone has a right to your opinion
> I'm still trying to get the lay of the land>
Good to hear, watch out for rocks and lose dirt it can be dangerous out
there.
> so I don't have any specific requests or suggestions right now, but
there's obviously a lot of potential for cooperation between the two of us>
When I have some concrete details to discuss I wont hesitate to share them
with you. As you point out the potential is definitely there. Lets ask
around and make our plans more definitive.
>I know a few of the players here in the West, and I'll be happy to share
what a I know about them, but the East is sort of a mystery.>
By all means do, I tend to let the situation in the world (created by
everyones actions) dictate my strategy. Stab me once, stab me twice even a
3rd time and if the situation calls for it I will make you my trusty ally
and we will stab your enemy together.
> Ben Harris, the English player, was a commentator in the last comments>
We have just been intoduced. My final p.s. to him was ;
p.s. OK, I will not eliminate you before the end op '01 and I will take your
desire for Belgium to heart in negotiations with my neighbours. Should
France have the same desire regarding Belgium then I am more than willing to
act as a go between. The world is large enough for the three of us.
> Let me know when you get your embassies cranking, and we can try to hash
out some sort of early plan. I assume you're headed for Holland and
Denmark; as far as I'm concerned, Belgium is open to discussion, and
something that should be resolved sooner rather than later.>
For now I have only spoken to England he wants Belgium as you can see from
my p.s. to him, he did however add that it was open to negotiation. If you
and I take objection to this then we must discuss the matter further.
Dont judge me on your previous moves (when you played GErmany ;-),
I have no need to bounce in BUR unless you request me to do so nor will i go
there.
Once I have spoken to Italy, austria and the rest of the world I will give
you a run down of how I see things unfolding.
Lets keep in touch. For now I only have growth on my mind (1 or 2). I havent
yet decided where to grab this growth this year or spread it over next year
as well.
When I do I will let you know. My objective will be based on what I hear. In
the meantime let me know how you wish to discuss belgium. Do we bend over
and let England take it or just give him that impression.
Thanks for your insight into the other players, I will take it into account.
But once again the board usually dictates my actions and diplomacy.
Tony
Message from Germany to Italy
Hi Andy, great to see a familiar name.
As for now I have only spoken to England, France and yourself.
Nothing much from England except his desire for Belgium. France wishes to
talk to his neighbours before putting any suggestions forward.
As for straight out of the gate....... A little protection is always helpful
and you never know when you may need it.
If you and Austria get off to a good start then any pressure on France is
welcome. I wont lie about that. Let me know how things go out east. Look
after yourself first. If you feel any jump start is worth serious
consideration then let me know. I will do the same. As for now I am doing
the usual rounds, will get back to you asap with any value adding
information.
Tony
Message from Germany to England
Hi again Ben, this is a follow up to our time stamp check ;-)
>Hopefully there won't be a problem with dropouts.>
I agree they are a bunch of dropouts at the Vermont Group ;-) that's what
binds us.
But they are reliable for seeing it through to the end.
>Concerning Belgium I would like to get it in '01 but that is negotiable. >
Thank you for sharing your concerns and desires with me in regard to
Belgium.
I was hoping to eliminate you before the end of '01 but who am I to brush
away concerns and desires.
I am very pleased to hear that you are not blinded by need and that
negotiations can be conducted.
>The door for long-term planning is open. Let's hear from our other
neighbors & figure out something good for us both.>
A year is indeed a long time in diplomacy so lets discuss Belgium in the
near future after speaking to neighbours, close and far. Once I have tasted
the situation around the world I will get back to you with concrete
suggestions for the good of us both.
Good hunting. May we live long and prosper.
p.s. OK, I will not eliminate you before the end op '01 and I will take your
desire for Belgium to heart in negotiations with my neighbours. Should
France have the same desire regarding Belgium then I am more than willing to
act as a go between. The world is large enough for the three of us.
Message from Germany to all
Greetings all, Just thought that I would let you know that I wish to solo
and that I hope to have a good time whilst doing so.
I will have to make Belgium my 18th SC as England has desires for it. It is
negotiable according to England but hey
if he wants it then I will take Beligium last. It wont matter then.
Anyone else have any wishes. If not then all just vote me the winner and we
can move on.
I am easy, if two of you have the same solo wish then hey lets compromise
;-)
May you all live for as long as you want and never want for as long as you
live.
Tony
p.s. Its bedtime here in holland (Ben its 00:03 a.m. now), will get back to
A,T, R tomorrow.
Message from Master to all
Players,
The game has now started, powers have been assigned and the opening
salvos have been fired. I think we've got a great group of players in
this game, so I'm sure it will be a great experience for all of you
and for our commentators.
One of our players will be gone for a week from the 10th to the 18th.
I'm hoping that we can complete our first year before that hiatus.
Just to let you know, right now we've got over twenty commentators. I
expect that a few more will trickle in over the next few days.
Also, each Spring, as early as I can, I'm going to broadcast the
following message. After the first few years, I might cut back to once
every second year. I just want to make sure no one forgets about this.
------------
Players,
Please keep in mind that if you'd like to share your plans, strategy
and whatnot with the commentators, you can do that by sending press to
yourself. That way the commentators will see your comments, but other
players will not. If you send "press to o", anyone can see your
comments by requesting a history of the game. If you send "press to
m", I will see your comments but the commentators will not.
You are not required to share information with the commentators, but
you are encouraged to do so.
Greg, GM
C2
-------------
I'd like to wish everyone the best of luck in the game - have a great
game everyone.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from Observer to Observer
> Message from buffalo@guisarme.net as Italy to France in 'c2':
> Well....Tony Vernon is Germany. And he is one of the best
> players in the world....as least as good as Tamas.....
> Message from buffalo@guisarme.net as Italy to England in 'c2':
> Germany is one of the best players in the world.
> Don't believe a word he says.....
Tony Vernon - JDPR Rank - 340
Tamas Hauer - JDPR Rank - 203
Clearly Italy want EF vs. G, and is willing to exaggerate to
accomplish it. This encourages French Army builds, which
secures Italy's western border, so it makes a certain amount
of sense, but IG is a powerful and under-rated alliance, so
I'm not sure it's Italy's best approach.
Message from Austria to Germany
Hi Tony,
My first letter goes to you as I have a great need of
my German brother. While we both sit in the middle
of, soon to be, war torn Europe, with all the inherent
dangers of such positions, I'm already under the threat
of invasion by italians armies sitting just the other side
of my border.
I will of course do my best to insure the safety of my
people, but if I were to fail, you would find yourself
surrounded by powers that might be hostile to you
whereas I don't have the luxury or the desire to (Our
most effective paths of expansion lies in opposite
directions and the list of contested sc would be limited
to three: Marseilles, Warsaw & Moscow. A very small
list compare to other countries; wich make potential
conflicts between us very easy to handle and quite
unprobable until late in the game).
Given the mutual benefit of seeing the other survive
to protect our backs, I'm hoping that you will accept
to provide me with some diplomatic cover toward
Italy & Russia. Specifically, I would like you to keep
an army in Munich this year, to help repel a possible
italian invasion, and send your fleet to Denmark, to
deny Sweden to Russia if he has proven himself
hostile to us.
Once Russia & Italy are made of aware of this, it is
doubtfull they would entertained any hostiles actions
toward us and it should be easier for us to deal with
them.
Hope to hear from you soon as the rest of my
diplomacy depend on your answer,
Philippe
Message from Austria to Austria
First thing first. I will make sure of the Anschluss.
Since Germany has a JDPR of 1327 and rated
himself expert, it shouldn't be too hard, provided
he doesn't have something special in mind; but I
will still explain what I want instead of simply
asking for the Anschluss by name. This way, I
get to remind him why this is a good idea.
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
In a message dated 02/10/2003 10:43:18 PM GMT Daylight Time,
greg@spencersoft.com writes:
> France
> Erik Diehn
> New York, USA
> 27 years old
> JDPR: 830 - 9 games
> DRR: 11 games, 1 resignation
> pref list: RFEGTAI
> Played Germany in Comments 1
>
>
> Germany
> Tony Vernon
> Netherlands
> 43 years old
> JDPR: 1327 - 50 games
> DRR: 75 games, 2 resignations
> pref list: FRGATIE
>
Does anyone know why Tony Vernon did not get France since he alone put F at
the top of his pref.list?
Message from Observer to Observer
---- Original Message ----
> From: aasdip@aol.com
> Austria
> Philippe Bergeron
> pref list: ERATFGI
> England
> Benjamin Harris
> pref list: *
> France
> Erik Diehn
> pref list: RFEGTAI
> Germany
> Tony Vernon
> pref list: FRGATIE
>
> Italy
> Andy Bartalone
> pref list: RGFETIA
>
> Russia
> Eric Goodman
> pref list: *
> Turkey
> Jason Bennett
> pref list: [GTE]FRIA
> Does anyone know why Tony Vernon did not get France
> since he alone put F at the top of his pref.list?
Russia and England both used Pref * (Random Power)
which is "adjudicated" first, taking ER out of the mix.
That left Tony and Erik with pref lists of FGT and FGA,
so they split France and Germany. I'm a little surprised
that Andy didn't get Germany, though.
Message from Observer to Observer
Message from buffalo@guisarme.net as Italy to France in 'c2':
> Well....Tony Vernon is Germany. And he is one of the best
> players in the world....as least as good as Tamas.....
> Message from buffalo@guisarme.net as Italy to England in 'c2':
> Germany is one of the best players in the world.
> Don't believe a word he says.....
Tony Vernon - JDPR Rank - 340
Tamas Hauer - JDPR Rank - 203
Clearly Italy want EF vs. G, and is willing to exaggerate to
accomplish it. This encourages French Army builds, which
secures Italy's western border, so it makes a certain amount
of sense, but IG is a powerful and under-rated alliance, so
I'm not sure it's Italy's best approach.
Eric.
Message from Observer to Observer
aasdip@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 02/10/2003 10:43:18 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> greg@spencersoft.com writes:
>
>
>> France
>> pref list: RFEGTAI
>>
>>
>> Germany
>> pref list: FRGATIE
>
>
>
> Does anyone know why Tony Vernon did not get France since he alone put F
> at the top of his pref.list?
Here are the seven preference lists by power:
A: ERATFGI
E: *
F: RFEGTAI
G: FRGATIE
I: RGFETIA
R: *
T: [GTE]FRIA
When the two players that asked for random prefs were assigned England
and Russia, everyone else's list was adjusted to remove those two
powers. In effect, the lists were:
A: ATFGI[ER]
E: E[AFGIRT]
F: FGTAI[ER]
G: FGATI[ER]
I: GFTIA[ER]
R: R[AEFGIT]
T: [GT]FIA[ER]
So after the random powers were assigned, both France and Germany had
France as their first preference.
Greg
Message from Russia to all
>[Grey] Broadcast message in 'c2':
>Is this our Eric? playing Russia?
Da, dat's me, Tovarich. But watz wit' all the hush-hush secret
stuff? You messin' wit' me? Why doncha come out where's I can see ya,
huh?
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Italy
>Good Afternoon Eric...
And to you. Amusing that after talking with you about DipCon, we end
up in a game together.
>I hope that all is well.
Other than the Giants losing last night, I'm not complaining.
>You know .....IR is one of the strongest alliances on the board....
>
>I am very intrested in working with you. Are we of a like mind here.
This is a trick question, right? :) Absolutely, I'm interested.
Obviously for the short term I'm looking at getting Rum and jockeying
for position with AT, but RI cooperation can make that jockeying
easier for both of us.
For the moment I have no clear suggestions or requests, but I'll be in contact.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Austria
Greetings Archduke Philippe,
How go things in the south? Austria is one of my favorite countries
to play. Most people seem to be daunted by it, but for some reason I
find the stress of the position comforting.
I'm pretty flexible in terms of my openings. If you would like, we
can bounce in Gal, or we can declare it a DMZ. Unsurprisingly, I'm
going to focus on Rum initially.
Longer term RA can be a very effective alliance, so long as we make
sure you don't get hit by Italy in the early going, and we get a
decent jump on Turkey so he can't hold out too long. What are you
looking to do?
I haven't heard from Turkey yet, and only got a short message from
Andy in Italy. While I've never played with Andy before, he has a
strong reputation, so I think he's someone to watch out for. Going
purely by JDPR I'm someone to watch out for as well (which is the
point I think whoever did the grey broadcast was trying to get at) so
I don't know what you think of me. The Turk to the south is not
someone I'm at all familiar with.
More later,
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
I am fully on board with the German solo angle. But I find that
misdirection works really well to set these things up. I suggest you
open Mun-Bur-Gas, Kie-Den-Nth, and Ber-Kie-Hol. I'll open
War-Sil-Mun, take Swe and go Mos-War-Sil. Then when I suddenly go
south, you'll mop up in the intervening confusion. The only downside
is that you might have to take Bel before you're at 18, but I'm
hoping you can be flexible on that point.
More seriously, I've read a lot of articles that claim that GR is a
dangerous combination for both players -- for Germany because Russia
is always "behind" him and for Russia because of the proximity of a
lot of Germany units and the "inevitable" clash in Scandinavia. My
experience (and I have a whole 2 games' worth to speak from!) is that
GR is very effective. With Russia sufficiently engaged in the south
and Germany in the west, it can be pursued with a relative minimum of
stress for both players.
So I'm hopeful that we can work together in the long term and am very
willing to discuss options for such cooperation. In the shorter term
I'd like us to agree to something simple like a DMZ in Pru and Sil. I
would also like to know your intentions with respect to Sweden. Of
course I expect to take it StP-Bal-Swe, but it's always nice to know
what the German player is thinking before making assumptions about
the success of such a venture.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to England
Hey Ben,
>I love playing Russia - it combines the diplomacy challenge of being a
>central power with the tactical advantage of being an edge power. The best
>of both worlds, if you like it like that.
Ironically, I do best with Italy and Austria. I've played Russia
before, and it usually leaves me feeling schizophrenic! But I do
enjoy the diplomatic aspect, and it makes it pretty hard for any of
my neighbors to ignore me.
>Every one of us but
>Jason Bennett to your south. Wouldn't it be funny if he dropped out.
If there's an AT vs. R going at the time, it would be hilarious. Not
so funny if it's RT vs. A though. :)
>To get things started in c2 I imagine you will want to focus in the south.
>I intend to try for Norway for a fleet, if that eases your mind, also I
>would like to see you get Sweden & I will apply such pressure as I can to
>make sure you get it.
Obviously both of those things are good to hear in central command.
Since I haven't heard boo from A or T to date, I have no idea what
I'm up to yet, but I certainly expecting a southern focus.
>Long term E and R can be terrific allies, with so many dots in between. So
>let's bear that in mind & look out for each other's interest as things
>develop.
Absolutely. Also because you'll have lots of fleets, and I won't have
many, it gives us lots of options for hassle-free cooperation. While
I will want *some* presence in Scandinavia there's lots of room for
us to work together to our mutual advantage.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Germany
>Of course I expect to take it StP-Bal-Swe, but it's always nice to
>know what the German player is thinking before making assumptions
>about the success of such a venture.
Actually, considering legal moves helps as well! Obviously I meant StP-Bot-Swe.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Great, now I'm in *two* games with players named Eri(c|k). Keeps
things nice and confusing. Think we can get EG to send us misdirected
press is we alternate how we sign our press. :)
I'm a talkative player and I like to keep in contact with people
across the board as well as nearby ones. I guess the good thing about
Russia is that it gives most players a reason to want to talk to me
-- whatever you plan to do, there's room for RF cooperation against
either E or G. Especially if either of us ends up on the wrong end of
EG cooperation, it will do us good to be able to make sure the other
doesn't get wiped out to keep those guys honest.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Turkey
Sultan Jason,
Greetings from the north. So what's your pleasure? Bounce in Bla?
Steamroll to the west? Some combination?
I've heard only the barest peep from our mutual westward neighbors so
have no idea what they are planning. Andy's a player of some repute
-- more a FtF player I gather, but still someone that judge players
are quite in awe of. Philippe's name is very familiar sounding to me,
but to be honest, I know little of him as a player and don't have
time at the moment to do any research. I'm a fairly new player -- at
least in number of games played. I did well in my first two (newbie)
games, and have had mixed success and failure since. How about you?
You've got the benefit of a nice corner position, but the downside is
that RIA frequently head straight for it in some combination, and you
need some hard to acquire units to get you a real defense. A
juggernaut can be quite effective for both of us, getting us both
started and headed west pretty quickly, me with enough northern
forces to make a show in Scandinavia, you with enough fleets to hold
off the inevitable Italian swarm.
Let me know what you think of things and how you'd like to cooperate.
While we have some time before we need to really commit to anything,
I find it's always nice to have done some talking before the
you-know-what hits the fan.
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> >Every one of us but
> >Jason Bennett to your south. Wouldn't it be funny if he dropped out.
>
> If there's an AT vs. R going at the time, it would be hilarious. Not
> so funny if it's RT vs. A though. :)
Interesting you say that. I think you *have* heard from Austria. I think
he sent our anonymous broadcast, calling us out with our modest jdpr's. I
have a laundry list of reasons & will share some of them if you don't mind.
#1 on the list is that it appears to have been written by someone for whom
English is a second language. Philippe Bergeron, perhaps? Another note
about our Austria - I was intrigued to see that his JDPR is what it is
because he has, in a relatively small number of games, one solo. Four
losses, one 4 way draw, and one solo. As - coincidence? - Austria, in a
game that appears to have been (judging by average jdpr of 960) for
newbies. Wouldn't that describe perfectly the person who would send just
such a grey broadcast? Just thinking out loud, of course it's not really
important anyway. . .
> --- Tzarface
I *love* this. Excellent choice.
Ben
Message from England to all
> This must be our Benjamin:
> Ben Harris 1012.00
I just want to point out, that my JDPR is within several percentage points
of Andy's, at 1085. Therefore I am pretty much as good as Andy Bartalone,
who is well known in some circles as a player who uses ellipses very
frequently. . .
Also I want to point out that Greg's JDPR of 1431 is highest of all of us,
and I think we should gang up on him and fix the game settings so we all
solo.
Finally I want Tony to know that Belgium is his, if he will but send me a
case of that weird fruit flavored beer they have there.
Thank you.
Ben
Message from England to England
Greetings gallery.
Some quick thoughts as we open up. I set preference for random & ended up
with England. I can count on one hand the number of times I've played dip
ftf, and on two hands the number of times I've played pbem. I've played
England exactly once, in a nopress game. I do not know what I am doing, so
I'll have to do some research & try not to embarrass myself.
Around the horn, opening thoughts:
Austria: Haven't heard from him directly but if he didn't send that weird
grey broadcast then I'm Richard Nixon. It appears all the other players
are native English speakers, so his cadence stands out. I do not think the
veterans will be much interested & I do not think the newer players will be
pleased.
France: A good writer and hopefully an alliance-type player. Hard to tell
from three presses, but if I keep up my end I hope the stream of
communication will be enough to get us started in the right direction.
Germany: I have no reason to doubt Andy B.'s assessment of Tony as a top
class player. I am pleased to see Andy sent the same warning to Erik,
judging by the last press I got from him.
Russia: I see Eric's had some success with Russia in the past with a 3WD -
coincidentally, with a Germany eliminating Erik Diehn as England - with
play in the south. This is a good sign.
Italy: Andy knows I'm fairly inexperienced, as we've corresponded though we
haven't played. So I will ask him for advice & I know he will always have
something to say; hopefully the open dialogue will serve us both. . .
Turkey: Still waiting to hear from him. No entry in the floc.net universe
that I can find. I guess he's new.
Here we go!
Ben
Message from England to England
> Austria: Haven't heard from him directly but if he didn't send that weird
> grey broadcast then I'm Richard Nixon.
I suppose it could be Tony in Germany too. I wasn't much good at this game
(who sent the grey press?) in Comments, either.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Word on the street is that Germany's a damned fine player. We mustn't let
> him get the best of us. I'm writing him as soon as I'm done with this
> message, but I think, given his skill, that it would be wise for us to
> compare notes early and often.
I'm getting the sense Andy is nudging us toward an EF vs. G, and I'm
guessing the reason is, Andy wants to see the west resolve as slowly as
possible so he can focus on the East. He would like us to struggle as
allies against a superior Germany, I'm thinking, because if it were an EG
or FG he would have to worry (a) that the west is resolving too quickly and
(b) that the dangerous Tony Vernon is growing too quickly. I suspect if
our alliance structure were something other than EF we would find a stray
unit in, say, PIE or TYR, upsetting the balance to try to straighten things
out.
I frankly am leaning toward an EF myself, right now, having heard from
Germany. He's giving me the heebie jeebies. No concrete discussions, in
fact I think he studiously avoided them. You'll hear from him tomorrow I
imagine - let me know what you think.
> Of course, if we find ourselves all getting
> along nicely early on, I'd be willing to entertain a Western Triple that
> lets me head south.
The player most at risk in the western triple is Germany. So I am all in
favor of you suggesting it but I would not be surprised to see it shot down.
> I don't know much about the Eastern players. Eric G. was a commentator,
> though, I remember that much.
Yeah. I checked out his record. He's played a few games & soloed once as
Italy. A good player.
We'll write more tomorrow I'm sure. Now it's bedtime.
Ben
Message from France to Russia
>
> Great, now I'm in *two* games with players named Eri(c|k). Keeps
> things nice and confusing. Think we can get EG to send us misdirected
> press is we alternate how we sign our press. :)
Clearly, with names like ours, we're destined for greatness. The non-
Eric|ks of the game will crumble beneath our bisyllabic power.
Seriously, I'm glad to see that we're on the same page with EG. I've
always felt that FR have a tremendous ability to keep their neighbors
caged in and playing off one another, and I've done and seen it happen in
game after game. We're obviously not dealing with novices in this game,
but I'd really like to make a concerted effort to work with you to
maintain some leverage against these two.
I've already heard from both of them; Tony's style seems to rub Ben a
little wrong, which I think is an excellent sign. Let's hope that Belgium
broadcast, while clearly made in jest, gave Ben at least little case of
the heebie-jeebies.
I can't say I know much about the rest of your neighbors, though I'm very
familiar with Andy. I'm hoping to hear from the rest of them soon.
Erik
(note the correct spelling)
Message from France to England
> I suspect if
> our alliance structure were something other than EF we would find a
> stray
> unit in, say, PIE or TYR, upsetting the balance to try to straighten
> things
> out.
I concur. If he sees a lot of imbalance in the area, we can count on a
play against Germany or I. While that's probably not bad for you in the
short run, the last thing you want is Andy B. with the run of the
Mediterranean. We will all be better off if I'm still around down there
to keep him in line.
>
> I frankly am leaning toward an EF myself, right now, having heard from
> Germany. He's giving me the heebie jeebies. No concrete discussions,
> in
> fact I think he studiously avoided them. You'll hear from him tomorrow
> I
> imagine - let me know what you think.
Already heard from him. It took a little time to sort out the dry wit
from the serious statements; those broadcasts threw me for a little loop
briefly.
He's gunning to stir up trouble over Belgium, I think, which he's
probably got plans on (like all of us, I guess). The only concrete
information that he passed along is that you have interest in the space --
a piece of news so obvious, you have to wonder why he even points it
out, right? In any case, without having spent a lot of time conversing
with him, I can tell you right now that you seem a much easier person to
work with. As soon as we've got a sense of the Russian's early thoughts,
I think we should begin discussing some specifics.
>
> > Of course, if we find ourselves all getting
> > along nicely early on, I'd be willing to entertain a Western Triple
> that
> > lets me head south.
> The player most at risk in the western triple is Germany. So I am all
> in
> favor of you suggesting it but I would not be surprised to see it shot
> down.
Sure, why not? At least the rumor will get out there and keep Russia and
Italy on their toes. I'll suggest it to Tony in my next message. If you'd
like to make the same suggestion, please do so -- as you said, Germany's
usually the fall guy in the end of those deals.
>
> > I don't know much about the Eastern players. Eric G. was a
> commentator,
> > though, I remember that much.
> Yeah. I checked out his record. He's played a few games & soloed once
> as
> Italy. A good player.
Well, my record's awful, but I'm on the mend, I hope.
>
> We'll write more tomorrow I'm sure. Now it's bedtime.
>
I hear you. Talk to you in the morning.
Erik
Message to all
> >[Grey] Broadcast message in 'c2':
> >Is this our Eric? playing Russia?
>
> Da, dat's me, Tovarich. But watz wit' all the hush-hush secret
> stuff? You messin' wit' me? Why doncha come out where's I can see ya,
> huh?
No.....Eric Hunter played Russia in the first game...not Eric Goodman...
But Eric is every bit as good as his namesake.
Message from Italy to all
>
> > This must be our Benjamin:
> > Ben Harris 1012.00
>
> I just want to point out, that my JDPR is within several percentage points
> of Andy's, at 1085. Therefore I am pretty much as good as Andy Bartalone,
> who is well known in some circles as a player who uses ellipses very
> frequently. . .
Be careful what you say.....everyone here knows that I suck at this game.
> Also I want to point out that Greg's JDPR of 1431 is highest of all of us,
> and I think we should gang up on him and fix the game settings so we all
> solo.
Ok....I dont want to be part of that.....see Greg...I am not a
mutineer...:-)
> Finally I want Tony to know that Belgium is his, if he will but send me a
> case of that weird fruit flavored beer they have there.
That would be Lambic.
Message from Italy to England and France
Tony is already asking me to attack you both, so I suggest working
together.
Seriously.
Message from Italy to England
And if you are working with Erik in France....dont go to the Channel.
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
>
> And to you. Amusing that after talking with you about DipCon, we end
> up in a game together.
I thought so.
> >I hope that all is well.
>
> Other than the Giants losing last night, I'm not complaining.
Thats good.
> >You know .....IR is one of the strongest alliances on the board....
> >
> >I am very intrested in working with you. Are we of a like mind here.
>
> This is a trick question, right? :) Absolutely, I'm interested.
Excellent.
> Obviously for the short term I'm looking at getting Rum and jockeying
> for position with AT, but RI cooperation can make that jockeying
> easier for both of us.
I think its easier on both of us if we convince T to help us with A, and
then wipe the floor with him, but that would mean convincing EF to keep
Tony busy while this goes on, which I have faith in as long as I am not
attacking France. I can help push those buttons.....have you heard from
England.
take care
Andy
Message from Turkey to Turkey
Greetings, all. Hope everyone is enjoying the start of the game. We
managed to have 40 or so commentators for the first game, so hopefully
we can get that many again.
I'm Jason Bennett, and while I don't have a JDPR, I have played in 11
judge games (including some Modern games), as well as games on Dip2000
and Redscape, so I have some experience under my belt. I was also a
commentator for the first game in this series, so I got to see Andy pull
Austria out of the fire and into a nice draw.
As Turkey, I don't tend to go for a pure RT, but until I hear from
Austria, it looks like Russia may be the better ally. See the
just-finished nidhoegg on USDP (where I was Austria) for an excellent
example of how Turkey can play AT off against one another. Not pretty.
I'll do my best to stay in contact with everyone, although I do tend to
fall off after a few seasons. It's hard to press everyone when you
really don't have anything to say!
Enjoy the game, all.
jason
Message from Turkey to all
Good to hear from everyone. I'm afraid I don't have a JDPR, although
it's not for lack of trying! All my games have completed since Jan 1 of
this year.
Looking forward to it....
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Good to hear from you!
As you say, we're distance, but it's important that we stay in good
contact, for the day when we can help one another significantly!
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
Good to hear from you.
I'm glad to hear you're looking for peace. Obviously, if we're not going
to fight, that leaves you with France or Austria to direct your
attention against. If you're thinking Austria, I'm sure we can work
together. If it's France, we should make sure to give each other room to
work.
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Thanks for your quick and incisive note.
For starters, I'd prefer to bounce in Bla, if only to build up trust
between us. We can also head west, although we should keep any alliance
between us under wraps for as long as possible. Nothing galvanizes the
other powers as much as the cry of "Juggernaught!"
Austria hasn't said a thing to me yet, so I doubt he's talked with Italy
and Germany. I'll make sure to say hi and feel him out.
I assume we'll head for our usual positions in the first year and let
things ride from there. I assume you'll bounce in Gal with Austria to start?
jason
Message from Turkey to Austria
Greetings, fine Austria!
Since AT always have a touchy relationship, I thought it important to
get in touch with you immediately, so we can work out a solid agreement.
If we want, we can work well together, with you on land and me at sea
moving west across the continent.
Let me know what you think of this vision, and I'd be happy to discuss
it further.
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
> Good to hear from you.
Thank you.
> I'm glad to hear you're looking for peace. Obviously, if we're not going
> to fight, that leaves you with France or Austria to direct your
> attention against. If you're thinking Austria, I'm sure we can work
> together. If it's France, we should make sure to give each other room to
> work.
Well...would you be inclined to take apart the Balkans with me. Do you
think we can get the Russian on board....
Message from Turkey to Italy
> Well...would you be inclined to take apart the Balkans with me. Do you
> think we can get the Russian on board....
I think that might work well. I've already heard from thr Russian, so I
should be able to talk to him. I assume after we did that, it would free
you to focus on the west?
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> > Well...would you be inclined to take apart the Balkans with me. Do you
> > think we can get the Russian on board....
>
> I think that might work well. I've already heard from thr Russian, so I
> should be able to talk to him. I assume after we did that, it would free
> you to focus on the west?
And you to focus on Russia.
Message from Germany to Germany
**I sent this last night but to the wrong server**
OK, I have just heared from Andy (Italy). Just the usual greeting and best
wishes. He didnt mention anything shocking about his talks carried out so
far. He has only spoken to england and russia. I informed him to talk to me
after he spoke to turkey and austria and you. He asked if I had any out of
the gate suggestions. I said I had only talked to you and england and that I
would get back to him with any value added information which I come across.
Lets finish the round off and cross check all information so far.
Message from Russia to all
> > >[Grey] Broadcast message in 'c2':
> > >Is this our Eric? playing Russia?
> >
> > Da, dat's me, Tovarich. But watz wit' all the hush-hush secret
> > stuff? You messin' wit' me? Why doncha come out where's I can see ya,
> > huh?
>
>No.....Eric Hunter played Russia in the first game...not Eric Goodman...
>
>But Eric is every bit as good as his namesake.
Lemme 'splain, 'cuz youse havin some trouble gettin' dem fax straight, see.
#1- I'm Eric. That other Eric, I'm his namesake. Just 'cuz he's been dippin
longer dan me an doin bedder dan me don't make him da original guy.
#2- Da first inkwyry was askin' if da' guy playin' Russia (dat's me,
comrade) is da same guy whatz got da ID dat he showed in da broadcast.
Since I'z da guy what used ta have da "@mac.com" moniker, he was inkwyrin'
about me, not dat udder Eric guy.
#3- Since I'z da one what said I'z da' guy what da udder guy was askin'
about, whatcha' doin' contradiktin' me in fronna' my whole family fer?
Alla dis disrepectin, an ya ain't even got da constatushun ta come out an
talk ta me face ta face. Sheesh! Watz da world comin' to, anyway?
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to England
>Interesting you say that. I think you *have* heard from Austria. I think
>he sent our anonymous broadcast, calling us out with our modest jdpr's. I
>have a laundry list of reasons & will share some of them if you don't mind.
Well, FWIW, I *still* haven't heard from Austria, so if it was him, he's
doing a good job of hiding it. Germany's another possibility because if
we're going to get into JDPR-biasing, his is basically the same as mine.
> > --- Tzarface
>I *love* this. Excellent choice.
:) I must admit that I did amuse myself with that choice, too. Problem is
that I don't really know anything about the real Scarface character (I saw
the Pacino movie ages ago, but don't remember anything but violence).
A quick web search of Scarface sites shows that I can only use movie quotes
if I *really* want to piss people off. Apparently the character says "f***"
like every third word. I toned it down to "messin'" in the one I used. Of
course in that movie, Scarface was also Cuban, which makes the whole
Italian theme questionable, but in my defence, Howard Hawks made a version
in the '30s where Scarface was a Chicago mobster.
I just hope I haven't offended every non-native-english speaking observer
and player by using a potentially insulting stereotype!
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to France
Hmm. I've only heard from England unless you count the German broadcast.
That doesn't seem like a good thing!
Do you want to approach EG with any particular strategy, or just play it by
ear for now?
Sorry, I was going to write more, but I'm being told I'm staying up too
late! More later.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Italy
>I think its easier on both of us if we convince T to help us with A, and
>then wipe the floor with him, but that would mean convincing EF to keep
>Tony busy while this goes on, which I have faith in as long as I am not
>attacking France. I can help push those buttons.....have you heard from
>England.
Yes, I've heard from him. So far nothing more than general pleasantries,
but it appears there's potential for cooperation there.
Out of curiosity, do you think ITR vs. A makes more sense from a tactical
point of view, or is it something about Phillipe specifically?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
>I assume we'll head for our usual positions in the first year and let
>things ride from there.
Sounds good. Not bouncing causes all sorts of sirens to go off anyway, as
you note.
>I assume you'll bounce in Gal with Austria to start?
Have not heard from Austria, so do not know. Not knowing, cannot say.
(Sorry, B5 allusion there).
We'll see what he asks for. If he requests a DMZ rather than a bounce, then
I'll have to consider it. But I'm ceratinly expecting a bounce.
Gotta run for now. More later!
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Austria
Hi Philippe,
>My first letter goes to you as I have a great need of my German brother. While we both sit in the middle
of, soon to be, war torn Europe, with all the inherent dangers of such positions, I'm already under the threat
of invasion by italians armies sitting just the other side of my border.>
Who informed you of my plans to attack europe, or did the open solo broadcast give me away ;-)
As for Italy, I have always found AI once they have found each other to be a very reliable force to be reckoned with. I am sure the Italian will be knocking at your door carrying an olive branch. I have already spoken to him and urged him (in my own interest) to not war with you. I am sure the two of you have enough to worry about, you dont want a juggernaut rolling your way. I am hoping that this may allow VEN to come to my aid should EF take a fancy to my country. Maybe you can stear the AI alliance in this direction of cooperation.
>I will of course do my best to insure the safety of my people, but if I were to fail, you would find yourself surrounded by powers that might be hostile to you whereas I don't have the luxury or the desire to (Our most effective paths of expansion lies in opposite directions and the list of contested sc would be limited to three: Marseilles, Warsaw & Moscow. A very small list compare to other countries; wich make potential
conflicts between us very easy to handle and quite unprobable until late in the game).>
I have no reason to believe that we will be in conflict now or in the near future.
> Given the mutual benefit of seeing the other survive to protect our backs, I'm hoping that you will accept
to provide me with some diplomatic cover toward Italy & Russia. Specifically, I would like you to keep
an army in Munich this year, to help repel a possible italian invasion, and send your fleet to Denmark, to
deny Sweden to Russia if he has proven himself hostile to us.>
Your suggestions have been noted, for now EFRIA have all made suggestions concerning my troop movements.
> Once Russia & Italy are made of aware of this, it is doubtfull they would entertained any hostiles actions
toward us and it should be easier for us to deal with them.>
As I said, make friends with Italy. I will send a press to you both expressing my desires for your union.
> Hope to hear from you soon as the rest of my diplomacy depend on your answer>
Lets do our rounds and get back to each other.
Tony
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
To AIG, a toast.....may our cooporation blossom. Together we form a strong centre with enough expansion possibilities without antagonising each other. Our backs are covered. Let us erect a shrine in TYR and may it never come crumbling down.
Message from Germany to Russia
Hello Tzarface,
>More seriously, I've read a lot of articles that claim that GR is a dangerous combination for both players -- for Germany because Russia is always "behind" him and for Russia because of the proximity of a
lot of Germany units and the "inevitable" clash in Scandinavia. My experience (and I have a whole 2 games' worth to speak from!) is that GR is very effective. With Russia sufficiently engaged in the south
and Germany in the west, it can be pursued with a relative minimum of stress for both players.>
Aahh stress, indeed something to be avoided. With a friendly GR Russia even has the luxury to exploit possibilities in the north. My gut feeling combined with signals received from AI tells me that RT will do ok in the south. I would like you to consider a northern approach with MOS going to STP. The more you grab in the north, the lesse you need in the south/south west to solo.
> So I'm hopeful that we can work together in the long term and am very willing to discuss options for such cooperation. In the shorter term I'd like us to agree to something simple like a DMZ in Pru and Sil. I
would also like to know your intentions with respect to Sweden. Of course I expect to take it StP-Bot-Swe, but it's always nice to know what the German player is thinking before making assumptions about
the success of such a venture.>
A logical set of moves for the fleet in STP. I would ofcourse prefer to see the fleet move onto NWY. This could be achieved by spring next year as the army in STP would force england to use NTH/NWG to take sweden. If STP were then to move to Finland then a fleet build in STP will have you on your way into Sweden and the NWG. With two fleets facing England. If Austria moves against you then I would come to your aid. I think a move to UKR from WAR and MOS to STP will still ensure that Austria wont go for WAR even if he makes it to GAL. Push for a DMZ in GAL. With the eternal bounce in BLA along with my offered support if you get into trouble with Austria would leave us free to concentrate on England and scandinavia.
Just a few thoughts. Lets do our rounds and evaluate what we have heared and take appropiate steps from there. So far I have only been asked to bounce in Sweden should the situation call for it. This came from Austria, this is what leads me to belive that you would be able to arrange a DMZ in GAL and work together with me in the north. I will talk to Austria and point out the RG cooporation talks and inform him that if he does move on GAL once agreeing on a DMZ that I shall have to come to your aid.
Message from Germany to England
Hello Ben *timestamp* sent at 10:10 a.m.
So how are negotiations going? I have spoken to all my neighbours now. I just have Turkey left.
Italy mentioned that he had spoken to you and directly asked me if GI had plans from the gate.
I can only assume that he was referring to your intention on moving on BEL. Maybe he sees this as a possible E against F which he maybe would like to combine with a GI against France.
I informed him that I was still making my rounds. I got the impression that AI are friendly as ar RT. I have yet to speak to Turkey so I cant confirm this. The French asked me to discuss Belgium with him. This was before he knew that you had an eye on Belgium. A french interest for Belgium is usually used as a springboard for a convoy to england or an eventual attack on Gemany. How are negotiations going on the ENG channel?
It may also mean that he just wants to know my intention with Belgium. Usually a german invasion of Belgium spells trouble for France or s solid front line between the two nations to allow the other to look elsewhere.
Taking the Italians comments into account an EG friendship seems the most likely. I guess you will have to wait and see how the Russian opens. If he is friendly with Turkey then I can only assume that Austria is the intended target. This gives you and I room to manouvre in the north. Lets see how it goes. I dont mind you getting BEL but I would obviously only like to see a fleet there. Maybe an opening edi - nwg, lon - nth, lvp - edi would leave all options open for you. But I would only allow a fleet into Belgium.
Message from Germany to France
Well I have spoken to all my neighbours now, only Turkey left.
So far I have concluded that the Englishman will want Belgium. To do this he may go for the ENG and NTH. I have informed it that if anything only a fleet of his would be welcome. To ensure this he has to go for ENG. Just thought I would let you know. Italy seems friendly with Austria as does Russia with Turkey but I have yet to speak to the Turk. RA also seem reasonably friendly judging by the seperate press I received and after putting two and two together. This leads me to believe that Russia may open to the north. This may leave open up an opportunity for you and me in the west. AI will no doubt go after Turkey unless Italy has been convinced that GIT against France is a reasonable alternative for his VEN army if he is frinedly with Austria.
An english fleet in Belgium spells trouble for you, an english army in bel spells trouble for me as does a french army. I say cut the red tape and take POR and SPA using your armys. I will cover BEL if need be from RUH and push my fleet into holland and an army into denmark as you did last game. Only this time we will finish england off and not stop until we do so. Let me know what you think and what you have found out.
Message from Germany to all
> Finally I want Tony to know that Belgium is his, if he will but send me a
case of that weird fruit flavored beer they have there.<
Ah, you mean a case of the "forbidden drink", consider it done. Thank you for giving me BEL as my 18th center.
Message from Germany to Turkey
Hi Jason, glad to hear you are not the "jason" aka Jason Whitby.
So fellow witch, how are negotiations going? when playing Turkey I always try to get the juggernaut off to a good start. It is also in my interest that that is the case this time. Not that my interest is your top priority but in this case we have a mutual interest in a good old RT alliance.
He may want to open north and I dont mind him opening north. Lets keep each other informed. I have spoken to both AI and they do seem friendly towards each other, be careful out there.
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
Hi again, I have spoken to all powers now and have received input back from them. Going by the first comment game though the spring moves were a surprise to most. I wonder if that will be the case in this game.
How are you two getting on? do you need any specific feedback from my round of talks?
For now I am sticking to my GIA as the best line of defence, we can watch each others back.
Message from Austria to Turkey
Hi Jason,
I look forward to working with you. My first priority
in the near future will be survival, but provided I can
achieve this, I should be available to further whatever
plan of yours that doesn't target me.
Afterall, collaboration with Turkey is alot safer then
with Italy or Russia since you are farther away (a new
Italian units will take one turn to reach my homeland
while a Russian one will need two and yours three).
The Balkan question will have to be resolve of course;
but since the natural gains of 1901 are Tunis for Italy,
Serbia for Austria, Bulgaria for Turkey & Sweden for
Russia, we are left with 2 sc to split between us. Russia
might consider Rumania to be his, but I don't see what
right a 4 sc power has of becoming a 6 sc power by
limiting at least one of us to only 4 sc.
Philippe.
P.-S. Having you sail west is fine by me, but I would
suggest making sure no surprise come out of Sevastopol
before that.
Message from Austria to Germany
Hi Tony,
Thank you for your kind words, but I was hoping for
something more concrete. Sweet talking Italy & Russia
into leaving me alone, and even work with me, sure is
something I have to do; but if they decide that taking
me out is their best option to solo, it's not going to stop
them from doing so; and neither are your own words if
they aren't backed by a capacity to actually do something
about it.
I understand that you prefer to keep your options open,
but can you at least give me Kie-Den to work with?
Whatever you decide for the rest of your units, this
would still give you a very flexible positionning.
Philippe
Message from Italy to Russia
> Out of curiosity, do you think ITR vs. A makes more sense from a tactical
> point of view, or is it something about Phillipe specifically?
I have never shared a board with Phillipe, I just know him by reputation
and the Turk is a newbie....I think we can get his help with Phillipe and
then get rid of him. Easiest path to success.
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
>
> To AIG, a toast.....may our cooporation blossom. Together we form a
strong centre with enough expansion possibilities without antagonising
each other. Our backs are covered. Let us erect a shrine in TYR and may
it never come crumbling down.
>
An excellent sentiment. I agree whole-heartedly.
Message from Italy to Germany
> Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Germany to Austria and Italy in 'c2':
>
> Hi again, I have spoken to all powers now and have received input back
from them. Going by the first comment game though the spring moves were
a surprise to most. I wonder if that will be the case in this game.
I have sent press to everyone on the board, the only person I havent heard
a word from is Austria.
How are you two getting on? do you need any specific feedback from my
round of talks?
I dont know, I havent heard a word from him, but i know RT and F have.
> For now I am sticking to my GIA as the best line of defence, we can
watch each others back.
>
sounds like a great plan...assuming the Austrian actually talks to me.
Andy
Message from Turkey to Austria
Good to hear from you.
As you say, the 1901 gains are fairly standard. Hopefully, we can then
come to an understanding on Greece and Rumania. Of course, I'll be in a
much better position to consider Rumania if Italy doesn't try anything
silly. :-)
I'm talking with Russia, but I'll cover myself as well. I don't see any
reason to give him another advantage.
jason
Message from Turkey to Germany
Thanks for your note.
Russia and I have been talking, but I'm not too high on a full RT
alliance. Too many people looking for it, and ready to scream about it.
Don't worry, I'm covering my back, and I'll see what I can do about
Leptanoism.
jason
Message from Turkey to France
Good France,
I wanted to make sure to send you a note, if only to cover all my bases.
Of course, your stance toward Italy also interests me, but then again
a full French attack on Italy is so rare.
Let me know how EFG is doing, and I'll try to keep you up to date on
ART. So far, of course, things are only getting ramped up over here.
jason
Message from Austria to Turkey
> As you say, the 1901 gains are fairly standard. Hopefully, we can then
> come to an understanding on Greece and Rumania. Of course, I'll be in a
> much better position to consider Rumania if Italy doesn't try anything
> silly. :-)
Of course, if Russia is quickly dealt with, who care what silly
moves Italy makes ;-) Without a two front war, Turkey is
quite safe from italian naval ambition.
> I'm talking with Russia, but I'll cover myself as well. I don't see any
> reason to give him another advantage.
Sure, no problem. I'm not going to push for anything here. I'm
just letting you know what is possible. When you feel that
attacking another is the thing to do, just let me know and I
will see what part I can play in your plan.
Philippe.
P.-S. In a split of Rumania and Greece, I have no preference.
Rumania can be a nice place from wich to launch an invasion
of Russia and Greece sure is a nice place to station a fleet.
Message from Germany to Austria
Hi Philippe,
I thought that we would make our rounds and then get back to each other with more concrete measures.
> I understand that you prefer to keep your options open,
but can you at least give me Kie-Den to work with? Whatever you decide for the rest of your units, this
would still give you a very flexible positionning.>
I am still in the middle of talks, even to the point where I am asking AR to work with you.
For now Russia and I are coming to terms regarding yours and his interacting in my eyes and my first impressions following a round of talks. As you know I have suggested to you and Italy that we work together.
A normal opening for germany would be to den, kie and BUR or RUH depending on negotiations and gut feelings.
If I feel all is going well with england then KIE to DEN will be the move to make. I wish things to go well with both E and F. All Russia has asked is that I dont bounce him in Sweden, I did point out to him that this has been suggested as a course of action if certain situations arise. We spoke openly about it. I did state that I would like to see TYR empty, this not only helps you but me too.
Message from Observer to Observer
so we are past 90 messages, and Austria hasn't written Italy yet.
Knowing Andy, you'd have to assume he opens Ven-Tri anyway...is it now a
done deal?
It seems that
Experienced (good) players:
1. Get a bullseye painted on their backs
2. Get deference in press treatment by the other players
An interesting conundrum, which I would assume the good players will use to
their advantage
Message from Germany to Turkey
Hi Jason, thanks for the press. A little surprised to hear that RT are not off to a full blown partnership.
The BLA bounce is a must in any scenario. Austria is a little weary of his neighbours to the point of paranoia.
Have you heared from him?
Italy says he hasnt which leads me to belive that either AR, FT or AT are off to a good start or Italy is lying about Austria. See how this fits in with your information. I can only pass on what i hear.
As we form no threat to each other we should keep each other informed of all minor details.
If you are not certain of the RT alliance then maybe italys comments mean something. An AT relation is a strange one indeed so draw your own conclusions. As stated I prefer an RT alliance right now. But maybe AR know something we dont. Keep in touch.
Message from Germany to Italy
I just received a message from Austria. He wanted a commitment of kie - den.
He also stated that I hadnt made any concrete suggestions. I thought I did with TYR and an IAG alliance for the spring moves. He is obviously talking to england as I have spoken openly with Russia regarding a bounce in sweden. Only england could therefor be directly concerned as to where my fleet is going, maybe france to a lesser extent to help along his talks with england. This can only lead me to the conclusion that FA are close. With a friendly FE and FA then you sound like a target for FA. Strange Austria hasnt spoken to you. Turkey mentioned that he is not sold on a full RT alliance just yet. This may point to an RA alliance or RT pretending not to get along. Just keep tieing all lose ends of information (and disinformation) together. Lets keep other in the picture.
Tony
Message from Germany to Russia
Hello again, well I have heared from everyone now. AT give the impression that they are friendly towards you so it looks like you will be attacking yourself. Austria is trying to fish out where me fleet is going, England and or France have no doubt asked for this information. Italy states that he hasnt heared from Austria.
Any news your end?
Message from Italy to Germany
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Germany to Italy in 'c2':
>
> I just received a message from Austria. He wanted a commitment of kie - den.
> He also stated that I hadnt made any concrete suggestions. I thought I
did with TYR and an IAG alliance for the spring moves.
Those are fairly concrete suggestions.
He is obviously
talking to england as I have spoken openly with Russia regarding a
bounce in sweden. Only england could therefor be directly concerned as
to where my fleet is going, maybe france to a lesser extent to help
along his talks with england. This can only lead me to the conclusion
that FA are close. With a friendly FE and FA then you sound like a
target for FA.
Or he has a concern with Russia and wants to make sure if he is giving him
RUM that he wont be getting SWE as wll.
Strange Austria hasnt spoken to you.
I think so too.
Turkey mentioned
that he is not sold on a full RT alliance just yet. This may point to an
RA alliance or RT pretending not to get along. Just keep tieing all lose
ends of information (and disinformation) together. Lets keep other in
the picture.
Absolutely
take care
Andy
Message from Austria to Italy
Hi Andy,
Beside France, everyone has written to me allready and I
really need to get on with; but first thing first, congratulation
for being part of the final draw of the previous comments
games (haven't had the time to read about how you have
done it yet, but I will surely do so at the first opportunity)!
Now, it's too early for me to make any long term plans,
but I'm one of those who believe that long lasting AI
alliance are possible. So while I agree that peace in the
short term is a must for both of us, I also think that it's
quite manageable in the long term provided we take the
necessary steps to prevent stabs.
That being said, I do have to be warry of the quick
departure we sometime see Austria suffer from. My
favourite way of taking care of that is to send my fleet
to Ven. Of course, any claim I might make on Greece
won't be as strong as if I had moved my fleet to Alb;
but I prefer to make sure we will both concentrate
exclusively on purely constructive plan.
Now, let us see how we can best collaborate. Personaly,
I'm partial to the Lepanto, with Rom going to Ven, as
Turkey is a problem that need to be dealt with early or
tolerated in the long term.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> > To AIG, a toast.....may our cooporation blossom. Together we form a
> strong centre with enough expansion possibilities without antagonising
> each other. Our backs are covered. Let us erect a shrine in TYR and may
> it never come crumbling down.
> >
>
> An excellent sentiment. I agree whole-heartedly.
>
>
Then the construction of that shrine shall be initiated immediately
as I also agree. May no army ever violate the sanctity of that
sacred place!
Message from Austria to Russia
Greeting Tzarface,
> How go things in the south? Austria is one of my favorite countries
> to play. Most people seem to be daunted by it, but for some reason I
> find the stress of the position comforting.
I suppose that as long as you can survive the early years,
you do get to enjoy the same game as everyone :-)
> I'm pretty flexible in terms of my openings. If you would like, we
> can bounce in Gal, or we can declare it a DMZ. Unsurprisingly, I'm
> going to focus on Rum initially.
Personaly, I would prefer to declare it a DMZ and learn
as soon as possible whether you can be trusted or not,
wich is usefull to know if we are to be working together;
but I did take the precaution of asking Tony about
bouncing you in Sweden if things turn sour.
> Longer term RA can be a very effective alliance, so long as we make
> sure you don't get hit by Italy in the early going, and we get a
> decent jump on Turkey so he can't hold out too long. What are you
> looking to do?
>
> I haven't heard from Turkey yet, and only got a short message from
> Andy in Italy. While I've never played with Andy before, he has a
> strong reputation, so I think he's someone to watch out for. Going
> purely by JDPR I'm someone to watch out for as well (which is the
> point I think whoever did the grey broadcast was trying to get at) so
> I don't know what you think of me. The Turk to the south is not
> someone I'm at all familiar with.
I think it's too early for me to be making plans. A Lepanto
on Andy's part sure is something I look forward to, but I
will be sending my fleet to Ven to make sure his final choice
doesn't have anything to do with an early invasion of Austria.
Regards,
Philippe
Message from Austria to Germany
> I thought that we would make our rounds and then get back to each other with more concrete measures.
Of course, but the Galician question was presented to me
and I wanted to see if it was possible to go with the dmz
instead of the bounce. This way, I at least get some early
impression of how much I can trust Russia.
> I am still in the middle of talks, even to the point where I am asking AR to work with you.
> For now Russia and I are coming to terms regarding yours and his interacting in my eyes and my first impressions following a round
of talks. As you know I have suggested to you and Italy that we work together.
> A normal opening for germany would be to den, kie and BUR or RUH depending on negotiations and gut feelings.
> If I feel all is going well with england then KIE to DEN will be the move to make. I wish things to go well with both E and F. All
Russia has asked is that I dont bounce him in Sweden, I did point out to him that this has been suggested as a course of action if
certain situations arise. We spoke openly about it. I did state that I would like to see TYR empty, this not only helps you but me
too.
In the past, I have seen german players go for the three
builds with Ruh, Hol & Kie and knowing this possibility
exist make me nervous as Austria. It's a big gamble that
can be profitable for Germany, but wich leave Austria
vulnerable to a quick departure.
Anyway, I have gone with the dmz and mentioned the
question of the bounce of Sweden to Russia; but please
keep me appraise of the destination of your fleet so I
get the chance to change my mind if I'm getting bad vibe.
Good luck with England! I wouldn't mind dealing with
a Russia who doesn't have it too easy.
Philippe
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> And if you are working with Erik in France....dont go to the Channel.
I was going to ask you about that. Seemed tough to reconcile everything I
was hearing.
It looks like you wrote Erik already about Germany, which will help. I
imagine you wrote Eric, too, - why wouldn't you - but it will help. Curious
to know what you hear from Austria, who still hasn't written me. I'm
guessing he's the source of the original grey broadcast. I saw he's had one
solo & it was with Austria; it may have been a newbie game.
I'm getting a sense Eric will open south - what else would he tell me - but
I imagine he'd make a good partner for you.
Ben
Message from England to France and Italy
> Tony is already asking me to attack you both, so I suggest working
> together.
Based on what I hear from him - I don't doubt it. Thanks for the tip.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> As you say, we're distance, but it's important that we stay in good
> contact, for the day when we can help one another significantly!
To a certain extent that day has already come. For instance, I can tell you
some things you may not know.
Andy Bartalone in Italy is an absolute top rank player. He is outstanding.
Ignore this garbage about JDPR's, it doesn't mean anything for some players
& he's one of them.
Let me know what you hear from Austria & Russia as their play in the east
will ripple into the west. For now we are still exchanging pleasantries
over here, if you can call the weird broadcasts pleasantries.
Ben
Message from Austria to France
Greeting Erik,
Just wanted to say hi and let you know I'm available if
you wish to discuss anything. Not that we have much
to discuss at the moment, but there's always bits of
informations that one find usefull.
Best regards,
Philippe
Message from Austria to England
Greeting to you too Ben,
May you keep things interesting in the north while
I try to survive! If you hear anything of interest,
please let me know and I will do the same.
Best regards,
Philippe
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Already heard from him. It took a little time to sort out the dry wit
> from the serious statements; those broadcasts threw me for a
> little loop briefly.
Yeah. You call it dry wit, I call it making fun of me. I'm not sure what
purpose it's supposed to be serving.
> He's gunning to stir up trouble over Belgium, I think, which he's
> probably got plans on (like all of us, I guess). The only concrete
> information that he passed along is that you have interest in
> the space --
> a piece of news so obvious, you have to wonder why he even points it
> out, right? In any case, without having spent a lot of time conversing
> with him, I can tell you right now that you seem a much
> easier person to
> work with. As soon as we've got a sense of the Russian's
> early thoughts,
> I think we should begin discussing some specifics.
Absolutely. What I told him was that I was interested in Belgium but it was
negotiable. It was not a big deal - still isn't - but from that he has
extracted the broadcasts & apparently his press to you. Plus his recent
press to me included "Belgium" or "BEL" eight times in the whole two
paragraph press. Weird.
> Italy on their toes. I'll suggest it to Tony in my next
> message. If you'd like to make the same suggestion, please
> do so -- as you said, Germany's usually the fall guy in
> the end of those deals.
If we both propose it I think he would guess we were in cahoots.
> Well, my record's awful, but I'm on the mend, I hope.
We are all on the mend. ;o)
I will look over our tactical options later & hope you do the same. I am no
tactical genius & count on discussion to make plans.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Well, FWIW, I *still* haven't heard from Austria, so if it
> was him, he's doing a good job of hiding it. Germany's
> another possibility because if we're going to get into
> JDPR-biasing, his is basically the same as mine.
As I've said I don't think it's a big deal, though I agree Germany is the
other possibility. I wonder whether you overlooked this from Germany's
opening broadcast, some sixteen or so hours ago:
> p.s. Its bedtime here in holland (Ben its 00:03 a.m. now),
> will get back to A,T, R tomorrow.
So apparently *someone* heard from Austria yesterday.
> I just hope I haven't offended every non-native-english
> speaking observer and player by using a potentially
> insulting stereotype!
Well, there's always gunboat. ;o)
Ben
Message from England to England
Greetings again gallery.
What I am hoping for is, in the west, EF v. G, and in the east, ARI v. T
followed by IR v. A, followed by Andy stabbing Eric. Not too far fetched.
The advantage of this in the east is, it keeps Russia locked up in a land
war throughout.
Ben
Message from Italy to Austria
Hi Philippe,
> Beside France, everyone has written to me allready and I
> really need to get on with; but first thing first, congratulation
> for being part of the final draw of the previous comments
> games (haven't had the time to read about how you have
> done it yet, but I will surely do so at the first opportunity)!
Thank you. I came on as a replacement player in Austria.
> Now, it's too early for me to make any long term plans,
> but I'm one of those who believe that long lasting AI
> alliance are possible.
As am I.
So while I agree that peace in the
> short term is a must for both of us, I also think that it's
> quite manageable in the long term provided we take the
> necessary steps to prevent stabs.
I agree.
> That being said, I do have to be warry of the quick
> departure we sometime see Austria suffer from.
I would agree with that.
My
> favourite way of taking care of that is to send my fleet
> to Ven.
That is a good way to do it, but fairly counter-productive if we are going
to work on a central powers alliance.
Of course, any claim I might make on Greece
> won't be as strong as if I had moved my fleet to Alb;
> but I prefer to make sure we will both concentrate
> exclusively on purely constructive plan.
Assuming we are going with the Central powers ...its unneccesary.
> Now, let us see how we can best collaborate. Personaly,
> I'm partial to the Lepanto,
Would you be willing to do a Key. The Turk is very inexperienced and would
likely work like a charm.
> Turkey is a problem that need to be dealt with early or
> tolerated in the long term.
Agreed.
Message from Italy to England
So....Ben
On a completely different note.... Why havent you signed up for DipCon
yet....you live in Maryland, its in DC and next weekend.
Face to Face can only make your online game better.
Andy
Its a flaming baton
Thats ready to twirl
Its George Bush on acid
Singing the Duke of Earl
Gonna be a new world
-Mojo Nixon
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> So....Ben
>
> On a completely different note.... Why havent you signed up for DipCon
> yet....you live in Maryland, its in DC and next weekend.
Ooh, a hard sell, in front of a crowd, too.
> Face to Face can only make your online game better.
Andy I would love to, but I can't be disappearing for large chunks of time
like that with two small kids roaming the house. I have no doubt I'd get
clubbed like a baby seal (at the convention, not at home by the children),
but I still think it would be fun. I will get vicarious pleasure out of you
winning all the prizes, though.
:-)
I may be in D.C. during the workday in a few weeks - stress the word *may* -
& would look you up if that's ok. Probably should continue this off-line,
though.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Hello Ben *timestamp* sent at 10:10 a.m.
Let's synchronize our watches.
> So how are negotiations going? I have spoken to all my
> neighbours now. I just have Turkey left.
> Italy mentioned that he had spoken to you and directly asked
> me if GI had plans from the gate.
Yeah, I figured. You two being the most senior veterans, I believe.
> I can only assume that he was referring to your intention on
> moving on BEL. Maybe he sees this as a possible E against F
> which he maybe would like to combine with a GI against France.
Interesting. But you don't want to do this?
> I informed him that I was still making my rounds. I got the
> impression that AI are friendly as ar RT. I have yet to speak
> to Turkey so I cant confirm this. The French asked me to
> discuss Belgium with him. This was before he knew that you
> had an eye on Belgium. A french interest for Belgium is
> usually used as a springboard for a convoy to england or an
> eventual attack on Gemany. How are negotiations going on the
> ENG channel?
We still have a few days. So far we haven't decided anything.
> It may also mean that he just wants to know my intention with
> Belgium. Usually a german invasion of Belgium spells trouble
> for France or s solid front line between the two nations to
> allow the other to look elsewhere.
> Taking the Italians comments into account an EG friendship
> seems the most likely. I guess you will have to wait and see
> how the Russian opens. If he is friendly with Turkey then I
> can only assume that Austria is the intended target. This
> gives you and I room to manouvre in the north. Lets see how
> it goes. I dont mind you getting BEL but I would obviously
> only like to see a fleet there. Maybe an opening edi - nwg,
> lon - nth, lvp - edi would leave all options open for you.
> But I would only allow a fleet into Belgium.
Depending on how negotiations go over the Channel, I definitely think we can
do something like that.
Ok I don't care anymore what time it is, right of England. ;-)
Ben
Message from France to England
> > Tony is already asking me to attack you both, so I suggest working
> > together.
> Based on what I hear from him - I don't doubt it. Thanks for the tip.
>
> Ben
>
Good read on Andy, by the way. How much do you buy this? And what has Tony
said to you so far?
Wait, just got the second e-mail from you. You just answered my questions.
So, here's my take: we have a clearly volatile, experienced and ambitious
player in the form of Germany. Italy sees him as the largest threat in the
West; I'm fairly sure Andy is writing me off, and sees you as a midgame
problem to be dealt with later. Andy will probably keep an exploratory
unit hanging in the west, and if he sees an opening in the south, he'll
take it. Otherwise, he wants us tying up Tony until he can get sort things
out with ATR.
In the interest of parity, I'm willing to support you into Belgium, if I
can. I don't have an exact opening planned out, so that may not even be
feasible, but I'd certainly rather see you there than Germany. And, of
course, I'd feel much safer seeing a fleet there than an army, but if you
can provide a convincing argument for the latter, I'm willing to consider
it.
The big wild card here is Russia. I've done the opening salvos with him,
but I don't have anything concrete. After we've exchanged a few more
messages with him, we should confer and decide if he seems to be opening
more southerly or more northerly. At that point, I think we can get into
some tactical specifics.
I'll still write and suggest the triple to Tony, just to see what he says,
if nothing else.
Sound good?
Erik
Message from Austria to Italy
> That is a good way to do it, but fairly counter-productive if we are going
> to work on a central powers alliance.
With Rom-Ven, we only lose one move and my fleet is
free to go to Alb in the fall, no big delay here.
> Assuming we are going with the Central powers ...its unneccesary.
It is, if everyone is on the same page; but if you aren't
there yet, expecting you to ask for more time while you
contemplate invading my country wouldn't be very
realistic to say the least.
> Would you be willing to do a Key. The Turk is very inexperienced and would
> likely work like a charm.
The Key Lepanto is something I really got to try some
day, as Italy; but I have yet to find an Austria willing to
go for it. Also, this being a press game with lots of time
to review options and drop hints to other players, I
would expect someone to point him to the right article
soon enough. FTF really seem to be the place to try
this kind of tactic.
Now, I don't want to give you the impression of being
inflexible, but Tri-Ven isn't something I'm willing to
negociate because survival is my first priority at the
start of the game as Austria. I won't have as strong a
start as I could have by taking more risk, but that's ok.
Philippe
Message from France to Austria
Greetings!
> Just wanted to say hi and let you know I'm available if
> you wish to discuss anything. Not that we have much
> to discuss at the moment, but there's always bits of
> informations that one find usefull.
>
There's always things to discuss, Phillipe. We've got plenty of common
neighbors, and I'm guessing we're already talking to both of them.
I don't really know Tony, who's playing Germany, too well, but I've faced
off against Andy a number of times and have a bit of a feel for how he
plays. The last game I played against him, I made a fatal error and left
an opening that he took great advantage of. Don't make the same mistake,
my friend.
From what I can tell right now, Italy sees Germany as a big long-term
threat, and would like to see him tied up in a squabble with as many
people as possible. He's certainly been goading England and I into early
animosity with him. Whether this is because Andy wants to head east and
needs the West off his back or because he wants to attack me and needs me
distracted I don't know, but I'll be keeping my eye on my southern centers
nevertheless.
Naturally, a better understanding of your relationship with Italy will
greatly improve my standings with him, so any information you can provide
me would be appreciated. I would suggest that, even if we're both friendly
with Italy, we agree now not to let him get control of the Mediterranean --
that spells trouble for both of us.
Erik
Message from Austria to France
> Naturally, a better understanding of your relationship with Italy will
> greatly improve my standings with him, so any information you can provide
> me would be appreciated. I would suggest that, even if we're both friendly
> with Italy, we agree now not to let him get control of the Mediterranean --
> that spells trouble for both of us.
Agreed. At the moment, I'm on good term with Andy;
but have you ever seen Austria complain of Italy's
hostility in spring 1901 ;-)
Philippe
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
> > That is a good way to do it, but fairly counter-productive if we are going
> > to work on a central powers alliance.
>
> With Rom-Ven, we only lose one move and my fleet is
> free to go to Alb in the fall, no big delay here.
Its the difference between building 1 and 2 in W01', that sounds fairly
major to me.
> > Assuming we are going with the Central powers ...its unneccesary.
>
> It is, if everyone is on the same page; but if you aren't
> there yet, expecting you to ask for more time while you
> contemplate invading my country wouldn't be very
> realistic to say the least.
I am completely with the idea, but limiting my moves *just because* doesnt
sit very well with me.
You have two other fronts to deal with, why do you want to be so paranoid
on my front.
> > Would you be willing to do a Key. The Turk is very inexperienced and would
> > likely work like a charm.
>
> The Key Lepanto is something I really got to try some
> day, as Italy; but I have yet to find an Austria willing to
> go for it. Also, this being a press game with lots of time
> to review options and drop hints to other players, I
> would expect someone to point him to the right article
> soon enough. FTF really seem to be the place to try
> this kind of tactic.
Ive done it successfully as both powers both online and ftf.
> Now, I don't want to give you the impression of being
> inflexible, but Tri-Ven isn't something I'm willing to
> negociate because survival is my first priority at the
> start of the game as Austria. I won't have as strong a
> start as I could have by taking more risk, but that's ok.
Well...you are strongly re-enforcing the impression that you do not
wish to.
You are holding 2 of my units hostage and saying ...you will do this MY
way....and that is not the way to have an healthy relationship.
Andy
Message from Italy to Germany
Tony.....
Philippe is being less than cooperative or helpful here.
Its a flaming baton
Thats ready to twirl
Its George Bush on acid
Singing the Duke of Earl
Gonna be a new world
-Mojo Nixon
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
Philippe seems to be scared to death of me, please cut his heart out.
Message from England to France
Erik -
> So, here's my take: we have a clearly volatile, experienced
> and ambitious
> player in the form of Germany. Italy sees him as the largest
> threat in the West; I'm fairly sure Andy is writing me off,
> and sees you as a midgame problem to be dealt with later.
> Andy will probably keep an exploratory unit hanging in the
> west, and if he sees an opening in the south, he'll take it.
> Otherwise, he wants us tying up Tony until he can get sort
> things out with ATR.
I could not agree more. I think you hit the nail on the head.
> In the interest of parity, I'm willing to support you into
> Belgium, if I can. I don't have an exact opening planned
> out, so that may not even be feasible, but I'd certainly
> rather see you there than Germany.
Thanks. Off the top of my head, there is the Maginot: MAR s PAR - BUR, BRE
- MAO. Sets you up to support me into BEL, from BUR, and still pick up
Iberia.
> And, of course, I'd feel much safer seeing a fleet
> there than an army, but if you can provide a convincing
> argument for the latter, I'm willing to consider it.
Food for thought, then:
If our plan is to attack Germany, are we not better situated if I have a F
NTH and A BEL? Rather than a A LVP (or NWY, or whatever) and F BEL? Seems
much more natural to me, as then Germany will be limited to at most two
builds and if we succeed in landing the army then so much the better.
> The big wild card here is Russia. I've done the opening
> salvos with him, but I don't have anything concrete. After
> we've exchanged a few more messages with him, we should
> confer and decide if he seems to be opening more southerly
> or more northerly. At that point, I think we can get into
> some tactical specifics.
In our favor I hope is your loquacious neighbor to the East. I bet Andy
will write to Russia pretty much what he wrote to us about Germany. Russia
can be promised a couple of dots in exchange for some cooperation, though
his involvement can and should be pretty limited.
> I'll still write and suggest the triple to Tony, just to see
> what he says, if nothing else.
Sure. He wrote me earlier vaguely suggesting an EG. I imagine he's vaguely
suggested an FG to you. . .
Let me know what you hear from Russia.
> Sound good?
Sounds excellent.
Ben
Message from Russia to Germany
Got your messages.
I strongly appreciate your offer of support should Austria head to Gal
after declaring it a DMZ.
Indeed I did get a friendly message from Austria not too long after I got
yours. He's asked for a DMZ in Gal as you have suggested he would, so I'm
likely to agree. While the northern opening idea is intriguing, a Gal DMZ
leaves me open to potential nastiness, so I'm a bit loathe to send my
forces north until I see that the DMZs in Gal, Pru and Sil are being
honored. Speaking of which, you never agreed to my proposed DMZ in Pru/Sil,
nor did you say what your intentions were in Swe at this point.
At this point I am more likely to consider building in the north if things
go well in the south than making a strict northern opening and trusting
that everything in the south and west is going to go well. But I will keep
you up to date as the situation evolves.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to England
Well Germany and Austria got back to me, and I must admit that the timing
and content of their messages makes me suspicious. I'll let you imagine the
tactical details of why I say this, but overall their combined proposed
moves would leave me in a really bad position should they cooperate to take
advantage of it.
Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.
More later.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Austria
>Personaly, I would prefer to declare it a DMZ and learn
>as soon as possible whether you can be trusted or not,
>wich is usefull to know if we are to be working together;
>but I did take the precaution of asking Tony about
>bouncing you in Sweden if things turn sour.
Fair enough. So for now let's plan on it being a DMZ. I also like the
opportunity to develop some trust early on. I do understand that a bounce
could be a resource strain if you are also looking to bounce with Ven.
We can confirm DMZ vs. bounce in a day or so after we've had a chance to
hear more from our neighbors. Sound good?
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Turkey
Okay,
Finally heard from Austria. He has requested a DMZ, so I'll likely go with
that, though it means I'll need to be a little cautious in case he tries to
take it. So I'll probably set up to take Rum while still having a good shot
at defending War if necessary.
Sound good? I'll be in touch some more as the week rolls on, but just
wanted to keep you up to date on my planning.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Italy
That was my guess, having heard Phillipe's name before and seeming to
recollect that he's a good player. Sounds good to me. For now I won't be
doing anything unusual, and I doubt there's much move-wise you need to do
either, so we can just spend some time trying to set up the right
circumstances north and south for RI to work. I've heard from GA and T now,
and it seems very doable. Of course, it always seems easy before anyone has
actually moved....
Keep in touch and I'll do the same.
--- Eric
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben, just got your message.
Not much has changed here. Austria was pushing for news on my KIE fleet, I
spoke to Turkey last night whilst writing to you. He didnt confirm nor deny
any understanding between himself and Russia.
Although the actual spring moves take place do apparent alliances begin to
shine through, even then mainly due to the rolling of the dice. Concrete
plans cut this chance outcome down a little unless one of the parties is
surprised by a third party. How about some concrete plans. It will probably
be EGF trusting each other, EF against Germany, FG against England, EG
against France. Italy or Russia may say the balance with their respective
spring moves.
Have you a preference, north? south? towards me? in liasion with France and
me? with me? or shall we just await the spring outcome?
Let me know, chose wisely ;-)
Message from Germany to Germany
England didnt deny speaking to Italy or just read past it without it
registering. This could indicate a superficial contact between the two of us
or that he has had contact with Italy. I want to push him a little more.
I dropped the English/Italian contact im my message to France, as far as I
knew at that time the pair hadnt talked. The game had just started.
Anything to ensure that France doesnt want war from the outset helps me out.
I wish to plant a seed of doubt in his mind concerning an EI alliance. If
France and England had spoken shortly after my message to France then
England would not refer to any contact with Italy. It will be interesting
to see what France comes back with.
As for trying to push Russia north the same applies here. I would obviously
like to see Russia put pressure on England.
The same goes for Italy, if he is willing then by all means let him push for
PIE.
I have no concrete plans as yet. The Austrian pushing for information on my
fleet is interesting. The Italian analysis (mainly of scenario's I
deliberately left out) didnt reveal any new information.
Hopefully the press will flow freely and someone will let slip some
information on their or their allied alliance.
I will continue to pound all players with information, rubbish, rumors etc.
etc.
Message from Austria to Russia
> We can confirm DMZ vs. bounce in a day or so after we've had a chance to
> hear more from our neighbors. Sound good?
Yes, perfect. How are things going in the north?
Philippe
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
I missed part of the conversation or am having trouble diluting who said
what.
Experience tells me that AI are made for each other.
The two of you state that you are on the same page as I am when it comes to
a central alliance.
What moves have been suggested?
The Turk has mentioned the KEY to me, he is aware of it. He also said that
he and Russia are not yet fully alligned.
I suggest Austria sort out a DMZ in GAL and offter an offensive against
Turkey to Russia. I am pushing the Russian for a northern opening. He wont
be able to go for GAL and a northern opening. He started off stating an
offensive in the south. This is bad news for me and Austria. By south he
could mean RT or RA. If its RA then no problem there for Austria.
If we combine it all then its also in Austria interest to have the Russian
open to the north. The DMZ in GAL plays an important part. WAR - UKR in an
RA alliance allows the GIA to get off to a good start. I can concentrate
west with Italy and the pair of you can concentrate east. It also opens up
the possibility of AG moving North East when the time arrives to do so.
I certainly dont see Italy invading Austria, this usually ends in dissatser
for Italy and Austria usually does a U-turn and ensures that both powers are
removed. Let me know if I can be of any help in move negotiations. From the
press I just received I cant make out what was said before it regarding
moves.
If neither of you have concrete plans with any other neighbour then now is
the time to work on an AI plan based on trust.
OK, its diplomacy but dont let paranoia set in in the spring of 1901. If all
goes foul use revenge and get even. The surrounding neighbours will be more
than willing to pounce. Lets set the GIA foundation in solid cement from the
word go. The sping of 1901 is usually a dice game anyway. All of us will be
tempted by all offers made but if we stick to sorting this out during the
coming days then I am sure we will succeed.
Message from Germany to Italy
> Philippe is being less than cooperative or helpful here.>
Its something we have to work on. At least we are trying to iron out the
differences. If we keep talking then the trust will slowly come. I have
mailed you both in an attempt to get us off the mark. Lets see how it
develops. Once we see a press from Austria to the three of us then we know
we are getting somewhere.
No news elsewhere as yet, England came back with nothing. I havent heared
from France, gut feeling at this moment is EF. But there again maybe France
hasnt come to any agreement with England yet. I prefer to focus on a
possibility. As long as GIA work on the central alliance it is worthwhile.
If he doesnt change his attitude towards the alliance then we have to look
elsewhere. Any interesting developments?
Message from Germany to Germany
OK, I sent my first evaluation and reasoning before I read the IA press. No
clear picture yet as to possible alliances so I will continue to push AI for
the central alliance.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I think you and I see S'01 pretty much the same way. Keep options open & do
not be the victim of an ugly surprise.
France mentioned the Western Triple to me - did he ask you too? If so what
do you think?
You make a good case for EG in your last note but I really haven't decided &
not likely to commit until I see what our various neighbors are up to. How
are I/F relations? Can you tell?
As to my own preference - I haven't really got one. I have never played
England in a press game before & am trying to feel my way through - any
words of wisdom ("Never attack Germany. Always attack France. Give your
dots to Germany. And give your dots to Germany.") you have would be
appreciated.
Ben
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
(Just read Tony's reply as I was ready to send this. Seem my
style of play for Austria, is too conservative but will it be that
much of a problem? I assure you that my paranoia is very
limited and I'm not about to spend the rest of the game sitting
over my homeland to protect all my precious sc ;-) I would
normally agree with the revenge argument, but I don't think
Austria really has the time to get his revenge if he's stab right
away.)
Andy (with copy to Tony),
Maybe I'm being paranoid, but it's not limited to your front.
I have also asked Tony about bouncing Russia in Sweden if
he try to enter Galicia. I assure you that it has nothing to do
with you or anyone else. Without some tactical play, I don't
think Austria can ever prevent his quick elimination. You
may have all the right feeling and be sure of your diplomacy,
but a concerted attack by Italy & Russia will show you the
door before you can do anything about it, the perfect stab.
I may be wrong and will learn to change my mind about this
in time; but for the moment, this is how I feel. Of course, this
limit my diplomacy and prevent me from being as flexible as
you might want; but this is a short term occurence that does
not limit you that much.
The sending of my fleet to Venice doesn't preclude you from
attacking France or Turkey. A move to Pie is rarely followed
by a second when the first one succeed and it's not possible
to convoy two armies in 1901 with only one fleet. Whatever
is done, one italian armies always remain around Venice at the
end of 1901, unless it is roaming in Austria with or without
his permission.
My hope is that you will accept to open with a Lepanto, but
I don't expect you to do so simply because I'm suggesting it.
If an invasion of France is more appealing to you then moving
against Turkey, then I will have to see how I can change that
and it will be my loss if I can't.
Philippe.
P.-S. Regarding the lost of one build, I would point out that
with Turkey as a target, there ain't much place to move to for
armies going south and a delay of one move would still allow
my fleet to be in position to support Ion-Aeg from Greece in
the fall.
Message from Germany to Russia
Hi Tzarface.
Austria is a little paranoid but by the sound of it the DMZ has his thumbs
up.
The reason I never mentioned SIL/PRU is because that would be the least of
my problems. I wanted to get the message of RA over first. We have plenty
of time. I have never opened to SIL/BOH as Germany nor have I ever seen
WAR - BOH. It goes without saying that I have no problems with SIL/PRU and
just for the record would like to add BOH.
In the initial stages me attacking you would be suicide with FEAI all around
me waiting to move on any weak power. I would just be strecthing my forces
and allowing England/France to grab the lowlands and scandinavia.
We did speak of Sweden. I would have no reason to prevent your build unless
you were hostile towards me in the spring. Something I know wont happen. So
yes, sweden is yours. I recall stating that I even want Sweden to carry on
to Norway. Lets take it one step at the time. I dont mind sending an RA
message about GAL and will do so immediately.
Lets keep talking. Nothing new yet from England or France or Turkey, or
Italy or Austria.
Tony
Message from Germany to Austria, Italy, and Russia
Hi guys, seperately we speak of having interest in a DMZ in GAL, TYR, SIL,
BOH, PRU. I feel we need reassuring that this is the case. As we are working
on plans for all 4 of us then maybe all of us should agree that if one of us
doesnt stick to a DMZ (GAL/SIL/PRU/BOH/TYR) then the remaining powers will
come to each others aid.
Its war and there are seven powers, we need to start hammering out a code of
conduct to ensure future colaboration.
We need to knock the number of powers down asap and ensure we have a broad
alliance to do so. So far GIA have been trying to coordinate plans. So has
Austria and Russia and Germany and Russia. With Russia on board then we can
at least build on a 4 some to start off with.
This leaves EFT as the targets. Something which should suit all of us as
they are in remote corners in relation to the 4 of us. With 3 of us pounding
Turkey, two of us pounding England, and two of us pounding France then we
run little risk.
A well coordinated 4 way alliance right now would minimize our risks. To
further enforce our strategy Russia and Germany need to make concrete plans
in the north. As does Germany Italy in the west. The three of you can easily
coordinate against biddy widdy Turkey in the corner.
Even the intention to work together and sticking to open communication is a
big step forward. Overcome paranoia and lets get this spring 1901 move off
to a good start for the 4 of us. Let me know guys. Press all 4 of us. The
more we talk openly the mopre we coordinate and can help each other overcome
initial reservations.
Tony
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Well Germany and Austria got back to me, and I must admit
> that the timing and content of their messages makes me
> suspicious. I'll let you imagine the tactical details of
> why I say this, but overall their combined proposed moves
> would leave me in a really bad position should they
> cooperate to take advantage of it.
According to Andy our Germany is hell on wheels, so watch your back. I was
going to mention to you, that when you happen to have your fleet in Sweden
F'01, we may be able to find some good things to do with it in '02, looking
forward. Profitable & stabilizing for you, you know. And a start toward
sharing the dots between us. . .
> Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.
You are not paranoid. Everyone is out to get you.
> More later.
I look forward to it - I enjoy your press.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
> Tony - > I think you and I see S'01 pretty much the same way. Keep
options open & do
not be the victim of an ugly surprise.>
I agree completely. Usually EFG have one hell of a fight and someone in the
east grows like cauliflower.
> France mentioned the Western Triple to me - did he ask you too? If so
what
> do you think?>
I mentioned it to the both of you, first to you then to him when I sent him
a copy of my p.s. from my first mail to you(There is room for the 3 of us)
remember.
> You make a good case for EG in your last note but I really haven't decided
&
> not likely to commit until I see what our various neighbors are up to.
How
> are I/F relations? Can you tell?
Yes, my attitude too, lets see what they do. Everyone promises everything in
the spring. By fall we should have some basis on which to build once the
initial nerves have settled down.
Neither has mentioned anything. Italy did say he spoke to France but he
didnt go into details. I havent heared from France since his and mine
opening messages, followed with a message from me to him. But by the look of
things he has let my message sinke in and talked to you about it. I assume
he will be contacing me shortly. Maybe you or him should set up a 3 way
press. I dont mind initiating it. Let me know.
> As to my own preference - I haven't really got one. I have never played
> England in a press game before & am trying to feel my way through - any
> words of wisdom ("Never attack Germany. Always attack France. Give your
> dots to Germany. And give your dots to Germany.") you have would be
> appreciated.
I always find England nerve racking in the first year, even after that its
difficult to develop. You need fleets, loads of them with the occasional
army thrown in at the right time. Once France or England gets the initial
stab in then its difficult to retaliate. The one who moves first usually
comes out the best. But its diplomacy and anything can happen.
The more solid the base the better for those in that base. An EFG fanning
outwards may ensure the comforting feeling we all need right now. But once
again its diplomacy. No matter what happens keep diploming. Use all styles.
Sometimes its just luck the first spring. But just look at it as real life
diplomacy with real countries ran by real people and all emotions and
feelings related to such an environment.
The sooner you build up a relationship the better. The bigger the
relationship in diplomacy the better. The stab when it comes is best dealt
out when its least expected but does has a devestating result.
But do remember, everyone has the right to your opinion ;-)
Let the board dictate your style of diplomacy at all time. Even if someone
has stabbed you a hundred fold there will always be a time when he needs
you. Stay in control of your own destiny for as long as possible but grab
what power you can especially if you can hold onto it. I will let you know
when I hear from France, as it is I have sent him two presses so I have to
await his reply. If you wish get a 3 way press going.
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
> What moves have been suggested?
>
Philippe is insisting on moving TRI - VEN in S01'
This leaves me in a spot.
It pins down one or both of my armies for the entire first year of the
game.
He is also insisting that I Lepanto.....and using the logic that a Key
would be leaked to the Turk regardless.....
If your concern is that the Key will be leaked, the other powers will see
a Lepanto on the horizon and make plans to defend it.
There are meta-gaming issues with attacking France.
I am going to leave Venice in place for the whole year, that way I can
actually do something with my other army, or I can just attack Trieste in
defense and turn this into a much bigger mess than it needs to be.
Or maybe I am over-reacting....or maybe I just dont like to be told what
to do......or maybe I dont like to be told that my *ally* is attacking me
and its defensive and for my own good.
We are either allies or we arent, and if we are, then there is ABSOLUTELY
ZERO reason for the move, and if we arent then I just want to know ahead
of time.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I am going to save your press. Thank you for sharing so much.
Now, we wait.
Ben
Message from England to England
> I havent heared from France since his and mine
> opening messages, followed with a message from
> me to him.
An interesting tidbit. And a good sign.
Ben
Message from Italy to Germany
> > Philippe is being less than cooperative or helpful here.>
>
> Its something we have to work on. At least we are trying to iron out the
> differences. If we keep talking then the trust will slowly come. I have
> mailed you both in an attempt to get us off the mark. Lets see how it
> develops. Once we see a press from Austria to the three of us then we know
> we are getting somewhere.
I spelled out why I was annoyed, and was probably over-reacting but
if this is going to work, I need him to know how I feel.
> No news elsewhere as yet, England came back with nothing. I havent heared
> from France, gut feeling at this moment is EF. But there again maybe France
> hasnt come to any agreement with England yet. I prefer to focus on a
> possibility. As long as GIA work on the central alliance it is worthwhile.
I havent heard much from either of them.
> If he doesnt change his attitude towards the alliance then we have to look
> elsewhere. Any interesting developments?
France isnt talking, but that isnt a surprise.
Turkey is damn quiet
I will be much softer in my next press to the two of you.
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
Remember that GIA are the heart of the central alliance. Russia joining is
is purely cosmetic but does aid our cause.
If he remianed part of the central alliance then Austria would have nowhere
to go once Turkey falls.
We just need Russia to stick with Austria for the first year. He will no
doubt spot the flaw in the 4 way but we can rest assure him that there is
growth in scandinavia and england. We will just be expanding the central
powers borders when the time arrives.
Philippe, I understand your feeling but if Austria is ment to fall then it
will be at the hands of RIT. They usually slice you up. An italian push into
Austria (ven - tri, rom - ven) leaves plenty of space for retaliation. You
would still have 3 units if you bounce yourseff in GAL (vie & bud) to GAL
and move TRI - ALB. This leaves you 3 against his two. Russia would pick up
any advantage and Italy would be left without a build if he had to use ION
to cut support from ALB.
Its just to messy even with Russias help. I dont want to get into scenarios.
I am looking for a common trust amongst two or three powers (prefably 4) to
ensure a quick start. You havent expressed fears towards me and I would push
for TYR if Italy attacks you.
If you invite him in then thats another matter of course.
Moves wise we can always work out any deep concerns. If worst comes to the
worst just have ven hold and move nap - ion and rom - apu. I would attack
any austrian unit in TYR, I dont mind VEN not moving on PIE if it sorts out
the AI situation. My main aim is the basis for cooporation and the central
power alliance. If we have to wait till fall then so be it.
Lets see how the GAIR develops as well. Maybe more communication will ease
initial concerns.
Message from France to Germany
>
> Well I have spoken to all my neighbours now, only Turkey left.
Yes, everyone seems present and accounted for, which is a good sign.
Nothing worse than a game with people missing from the start.
> So far I have concluded that the Englishman will want Belgium. To do
> this he may go for the ENG and NTH. I have informed it that if anything
> only a fleet of his would be welcome.
England usually wants Belgium, so this isn't much of a surprise, but I
appreciate the information. I can tell you from my plan that he's been
fairly aggressive about making deals with me, though he's not too strong
with specific tactical suggestions. I get the feeling that he'd really
like to get an army on the continent. I have also informed him that I'd
prefer to see a fleet in Bel.
I think his concern over taking Belgium is a possible sign that he's
headed south -- he and Russia are both rather talkative, so there's no
telling what's gone on between them. I'm largely guessing, but I think
they've done some early planning, and while that's not good for either of
us, it's particularly bad for you. I know you think Russia's opening
North; maybe my interpretation of the situation is wrong. Maybe I'm just
paraoid ;).
In any case, I'm agreed: it's better to keep English armies out of
Belgium. Obviously, I'd rather not see him go to Eng, but at least I can
prepare for it.
> RA also seem reasonably friendly judging by the seperate press I
> received and after putting two and two together. This leads me to
> believe that Russia may open to the north. This may leave open up an
> opportunity for you and me in the west. AI will no doubt go after Turkey
> unless Italy has been convinced that GIT against France is a reasonable
> alternative for his VEN army if he is frinedly with Austria.
>
So you think RAI against Turkey, eh? Sometimes that's not the best for
France -- Italy usually gets bored and heads west. I will have to keep an
eye on him. Any heads up you can give me about his movements would be
appreciated.
Italy also seems to be very wary of you -- just thought I'd let you know.
I don't know if you've played against him before, but I get the feeling
that he sees you as a serious long-term threat. Maybe I'm wrong. And
doesn't a friendly RAI mean problems for you down the road, too?
I like your opening plans. I need to study the map a little more, but I
can tell you that the opening you talked about worked out for me last
game. If you're proposing keeping England out of Belgium, where would you
like to head after we succeed in keeping him contained?
Erik
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
> Maybe I'm being paranoid, but it's not limited to your front.
> I have also asked Tony about bouncing Russia in Sweden if
> he try to enter Galicia. I assure you that it has nothing to do
> with you or anyone else. Without some tactical play, I don't
> think Austria can ever prevent his quick elimination. You
> may have all the right feeling and be sure of your diplomacy,
> but a concerted attack by Italy & Russia will show you the
> door before you can do anything about it, the perfect stab.
You usually have to have 3 on board to eliminate Austria in the way you
describe.
>
> I may be wrong and will learn to change my mind about this
> in time; but for the moment, this is how I feel. Of course, this
> limit my diplomacy and prevent me from being as flexible as
> you might want; but this is a short term occurence that does
> not limit you that much.
I disagree....but will work with you on it.
> The sending of my fleet to Venice doesn't preclude you from
> attacking France or Turkey.
How so?
If I want to move to Piedmont, I cant, without leaving my armies in Rome
and Piedmont.
A move to Pie is rarely followed
> by a second when the first one succeed and it's not possible
> to convoy two armies in 1901 with only one fleet. Whatever
> is done, one italian armies always remain around Venice at the
> end of 1901, unless it is roaming in Austria with or without
> his permission.
No....I could be in an Alpine Chicken.
> My hope is that you will accept to open with a Lepanto, but
> I don't expect you to do so simply because I'm suggesting it.
> If an invasion of France is more appealing to you then moving
> against Turkey, then I will have to see how I can change that
> and it will be my loss if I can't.
I will do the lepanto....I dont particurally like it, but I will do it.
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
It appears that the Austrian might be going full bore defensive on the
first turn.
Bouncing in GAL and attacking Venice.....if I can get this confirmed...
I have a plan....it involves unwanted supports and Italian armies in
the lower balkans....
How are your talks with the Turk going?
Andy
Message from Germany to England
> I am going to save your press. Thank you for sharing so much.>
I always lie ;-)
That was a lie ;-)
Either way the main lesson I have learnt is stay in control of your own
destiny, if you lose it sit back and strike when you can retake possession
of that destiny again . Try not to lose it again ;-)
Look at the whole board!
> Now, we wait.>
No, yes, maybe..... we still need to at least try and get the EFG working.
Maybe you should both pay me a visit to discuss matter further ;-) just
leave me BER to cotemplate on retaliation ;-)
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
> Remember that GIA are the heart of the central alliance. Russia joining is
> is purely cosmetic but does aid our cause.
Correct.
> If he remianed part of the central alliance then Austria would have nowhere
> to go once Turkey falls.
Correct.
> We just need Russia to stick with Austria for the first year. He will no
> doubt spot the flaw in the 4 way but we can rest assure him that there is
> growth in scandinavia and england. We will just be expanding the central
> powers borders when the time arrives.
That works.
> Philippe, I understand your feeling but if Austria is ment to fall then it
> will be at the hands of RIT. They usually slice you up. An italian push into
> Austria (ven - tri, rom - ven) leaves plenty of space for retaliation.
Its really easy to kick me out....and we both die.
You
> would still have 3 units if you bounce yourseff in GAL (vie & bud) to GAL
> and move TRI - ALB. This leaves you 3 against his two. Russia would pick up
> any advantage and Italy would be left without a build if he had to use ION
> to cut support from ALB.
Well....it you are going to relagate yourself to one build anyway....do
the full hedgehog....
Tri - Ven
Vie and Bud bounce in Galacia, you still get Serbia in the fall
Message from France to Italy
Thanks for the heads up, Andy. What's up with you and Tony? Do you have
some kind of history together?
I hear you're making friends in the east. I hope this doesn't mean that
you'll be making any non-friendly visits to Marseilles any time soon. I'd
hate to spend the first few years hanging around down there just to cover
my butt. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to your plans and relieve some
nagging paranoia, all assurances otherwise aside. Austria seems to think
you're pretty friendly, for what that's worth, but I haven't heard the
same from Turkey.
If you're *really* worried about Tony, I'd be willing to consider trying
the same tactic we tried last game, but without me going wishy-washy and
doubling back on England this time. I think Ben might be on board for that
sort of thing.
Erik
Message from Germany to France
Hi Erik, good to hear from you.
>I get the feeling that he'd really like to get an army on the continent.>
I have made it clear to him that I would not accept an army in Belgium.
>Maybe I'm just paraoid ;).>
I think we all are.
>Italy usually gets bored and heads west. I will have to keep an
eye on him. Any heads up you can give me about his movements would be
appreciated.> I will answer to this in a moment.
>GIT against France is a reasonable alternative for his VEN army if he is
friendly with Austria.>
I ment to say GIE against France, not GIT against france.
By this I ment that unless England mentioned he had spoken to Italy to you
then he kept it secret. If I tie this to your statement about england moving
south because he seems friendly with Russia then keeping his talks with
Italy secret
fits in. Speaking of paranoia ;-)
On the other hand he may be cooperating with england and move VEN - TYR to
help solve englands need for Belgium.
>Italy usually gets bored and heads west. I will have to keep an
eye on him. Any heads up you can give me about his movements would be
appreciated.>
I will come to that after your next line of text.
>Italy also seems to be very wary of you -- just thought I'd let you know.
I don't know if you've played against him before, but I get the feeling
that he sees you as a serious long-term threat. Maybe I'm wrong. And
doesn't a friendly RAI mean problems for you down the road, too?>
Now for answers to both the above. Italy is I believe still trying to sort
out an agreement with Austria.
I havent played against him before, I guess we are all long term threats to
each other.
Yes a friendly RAI would spell trouble for me at some time or another as it
would to England and you.
That brings me back to my initial EFG comments I made during day 1.
I get the feeling though that England will sit out the spring and see what
happens.
You too can afford to do so as can I.
>>I like your opening plans. I need to study the map a little more, but I
can tell you that the opening you talked about worked out for me last
game. If you're proposing keeping England out of Belgium, where would you
like to head after we succeed in keeping him contained?>>
To england ofcourse. First clean up our backyard. If we cant get him onboard
then we should ensure that Russia doesnt get him onboard first. With an army
each in the UK we could take EDI and LVP and use LON as a share SC given to
the one who needs it most at the time. But no more that an army each in the
UK.
We help each other around PIE/TYR. If the situation allows it then you
passing through MUN is also a possibility.
Its hard to hold anyway. We could swap LON for MUN when the ocassion calls
for it and swap back once you leave MUN.
I have more growth potential than you unless I let you pass through MUN at
some time or another.
Especially if we have a strong Italy.
Just thoughts on a long term strategy. But first we have to sort out the
EFG. Do we sit back in the spring and await what happens or do we all 3 join
forces now. I dont think he will come on board. He wont commit until next
year.
Or shall me and you come out all guns blazing and make his mind up for him?
Let me know.
Turkey is the quiet one, he hasnt said much as far as I know.
Message from Germany to England and France
Well France just sent me a press. Either all three of us sit back and wait
or we start an EFG press going to kill time and see what develops. Any
preference? or will you two be paying me a visit ;-)
Message from Italy to France
> Thanks for the heads up, Andy. What's up with you and Tony? Do you have
> some kind of history together?
No....he is just a VERY good player.
> I hear you're making friends in the east. I hope this doesn't mean that
> you'll be making any non-friendly visits to Marseilles any time soon. I'd
> hate to spend the first few years hanging around down there just to cover
> my butt. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to your plans and relieve some
> nagging paranoia, all assurances otherwise aside. Austria seems to think
> you're pretty friendly, for what that's worth, but I haven't heard the
> same from Turkey.
I assure you that no unauthorized visits to the south of France are
scheduled.
> If you're *really* worried about Tony, I'd be willing to consider trying
> the same tactic we tried last game, but without me going wishy-washy and
> doubling back on England this time. I think Ben might be on board for that
> sort of thing.
I need ot worry about a couple of other things, Tony is just a good enough
player that I had to make you well aware of it...and you and Ben should be
ok until I get this stuff sorted out.
Andy
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
(I just read the follow up on this crisis and I wish to thank
Andy for agreeing to the Lepanto, but I don't want him to
feel compel to. I assure you that I'm willing to discuss the
problem created by Tri-Ven and see what can be done
about it. As for the Alpine Chicken being a possibility that
is blocked by Tri-Ven, I agree; but having used it to hide
an attack on Austria in the past, I won't pretend to be sorry
to see it blocked.)
The only thing I'm insisting on is Tri-Ven and it is a defensive
move done for my own peace of mind with no accusation of
any actual intent on Andy's part. If you think this is an attack,
explain to me what it is achieving offensive wise?
Philippe
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> No, yes, maybe..... we still need to at least try and get the
> EFG working.
> Maybe you should both pay me a visit to discuss matter
> further ;-) just
> leave me BER to cotemplate on retaliation ;-)
:-)
Seriously, about an EFG. First of all I had read that it is Germany who
takes the risk. Second, I do not think it will affect my S'01, except I
guess would resolve the Channel, but my opening would remain the standard
one you suggested before. So I don't know how much it affects me.
Are you prepared to order BER - SIL? Or do you have something else in mind?
> Well France just sent me a press. Either all three of us sit back and wait
> or we start an EFG press going to kill time and see what develops. Any
> preference? or will you two be paying me a visit ;-)
Sorry - I was waiting for you to open up the three-way discussion.
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Oops! Didn't realize this was sent to France too. I'll send it again:
******
Seriously, about an EFG. First of all I had read that it is Germany who
takes the risk. Second, I do not think it will affect my S'01, except I
guess would resolve the Channel, but my opening would remain the standard
one you suggested before. So I don't know how much it affects me.
Are you prepared to order BER - SIL? Or do you have something else in mind?
> Well France just sent me a press. Either all three of us sit back and wait
> or we start an EFG press going to kill time and see what develops. Any
> preference? or will you two be paying me a visit ;-)
Sorry - I was waiting for you to open up the three-way discussion.
Ben
******
Message from Germany to England
>Sorry - I was waiting for you to open up the three-way discussion.>
I think I did, but press seems to be crossing each other.
>>First of all I had read that it is Germany who
takes the risk. Second, I do not think it will affect my S'01, except I
guess would resolve the Channel, but my opening would remain the standard
one you suggested before. So I don't know how much it affects me.>
He who dares wins ;-)
Well if either EF, EG, FG team up against the one the that one is in trouble
unless a third party intervenes.
Your standard opening is OK unless France moves on the ENG. Russia may open
to bounce you in Norway. You then have to chose between LON and NWY. A worst
case scenario. Usually a bounce in the ENG is the safest bet when in doubt.
<BER - SIL>
This would only be interesting if the EFG was a clear cut fact. We have a
long way to go before it is. If it was then a move to SIL and BOH would be
better. But if I get it wrong then I will be doomned to be an observer in
the game.
We would have to discuss the EFG a lot more before I would make such a move.
Your opening dont forget stll leaves A YOR - BEL a possibility. One I would
have to take into account.
Message from Germany to England and France
> Oops! Didn't realize this was sent to France too. I'll send it again:
>
> ******>
It wasnt was it? anyway it is now. But nothing secret as can be seen
Unless you ment to say "Didnt realize this wasn't sent to France too".
> Seriously, about an EFG. First of all I had read that it is Germany who
> takes the risk. Second, I do not think it will affect my S'01, except I
> guess would resolve the Channel, but my opening would remain the standard
> one you suggested before. So I don't know how much it affects me.
>
> Are you prepared to order BER - SIL? Or do you have something else in
mind?
>
> > Well France just sent me a press. Either all three of us sit back and
wait
> > or we start an EFG press going to kill time and see what develops. Any
> > preference? or will you two be paying me a visit ;-)
> Sorry - I was waiting for you to open up the three-way discussion.
>
> Ben
> ******
>
Well as stated in my reply. I would have to be very sure of an EFG to order
that move.
Lets start talking. Get the press going. I havent eaten yet so you two talk
and count me in the press. I will reply later this evening.
Message from Germany to Russia
An EFG press is being initiated. I will let you know the outcome. So far
England has only indicated a sit back wait and see attitude. I will keep you
abreast of developments.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I am trying to read between the lines & I'm getting the sense you are
looking for comfort from France, which is perfectly understandable.
> We would have to discuss the EFG a lot more before I would
> make such a move.
"We" who?
> Your opening dont forget stll leaves A YOR - BEL a
> possibility. One I would have to take into account.
I don't understand. You don't want this, do you?
Ok, I'll be away from my computer for awhile. I admit I cannot keep up with
your level of correspondence - I am pleased to have a slow day today at work
to get things off on the right foot. :-)
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
The standard opening moves for the Western Triple are pretty safe for us -
LON - NTH, EDI - NWG for me, BRE - MAO, PAR - BUR, MAR - SPA for you.
Germany, though, orders to RUH, DEN, and SIL(!) & I've received private
press from Germany proposing, if we were to carry it out, orders to SIL,
DEN, and BOH! Can't hurt to listen to him, though frankly my instinct right
now is just to look for an opportunity for us to take advantage of the
armies out of position by dropping the hammer as hard as we can.
I don't trust him any further than I can throw him, but who knows where this
dialogue will lead. Let me know what you think. One option will be you
trying for MUN in the fall, which according to the Western Triple formula
will be available.
Play along with him & see where it goes, if you don't mind. Could be good,
and if we maneuver ourselves into a position where G gets crushed quickly
then we will be able to push that much quicker to our next objectives. . .
Ben
Message from Germany to England
We as in EFG would have to discuss it further.
No, I definitely dont want an army in BEL. But your opening does allow for
just that. I was just pointing out the fact.
Yes, I need some assurance from France. He said you are hard in
negotiations, I havent noticed that. I understood your message where you
stated lets wait and see. Lets wait indeed. Maybe France will continue the
EFG press. If not then we will just have to wait and see. But we can still
discuss matters without him.
Message from Observer to Observer
I signed on this afternoon. My name is Thomas Michielsen from the
Netherlands, and I've always been interesting in reading press in
high-level games. The frequency of communications is amazing!
Discussing what one should do instead of what one is going to do
seems like the best option to me.
The anti-German sentiment in Italy sure is interesting. If E/F ally
against Germany and the alliance lasts, it will only be a matter of
time before F uses the builds from Bel and Mun for fleets in Mar. I
agree I/G is a very powerful alliance, mainly because G is the least
threat to I. However, E/F alliances are very unstable. I guess he's
either hoping it will take a while to bring down G, or that E/F will
come into conflict with each other sooner or later.
Another reason might be his earlier plans to invade Austria. G has
made clear he isn't going to react positively to such a move, but I
could probably get away with it if G is tied up by E/F. I wonder if
his 'Germany bashing' persists now that an attack on A is extremely
difficult because of F Tri-Ven.
Message from France to France
[n.b. Slow day at work, so I'm unusually chatty. Don't expect this much
commentary to the peanut gallery the whole game, though I will try to
check in regularly. ]
Here's the story of the board, as I will tell it:
Italy's got a serious beef with Germany for unknown personal reasons
relating to fear, long-held grudges and simple competitiveness.
Germany's not reciprocating Italy's beef, but is instead keen on
eliminating England early and quickly. He has no worries about Russia or
Austria.
Russia and England are in cahoots, and are sizing up Germany for a quick
kill.
Turkey is the odd man out. He needs to reach out to all his neighbors if
he's going to survive. RAI are all ganging up on him.
Italy is not as friendly with Austria as Austria thinks.
Now, I know that some, if not all, of this is untrue, but I am going to
act as if this is common, background knowledge and see how far I can
spread the belief. I'm hoping to avoid as much "hey, I heard so and so is
after you" talk as possible and lean instead on the "this is so obvious,
we can just chat about it like it's old hat" technique.
I am also getting the sense that my neighbors see me as the weakest of the
bunch. While this is true, I'm hoping a little "aw, shucks" talk on my
part can keep them underestimating me without all deciding to eliminate me
early. The key to this is to keep them focused on the "strongest player"
threats of the game, which essentially means each of them, depending on
who I'm talking to. I think that's the key to my survival.
I'd like to see an EFIR attack on Germany and his quick elimination. While
I'm willing to play fluidly, I think I've been a little too fluid in the
past, and I'd really like to put this plan together and stick to it.
I'm also going to work with Russia to plan England's demise as soon after
Germany's as possible. I think there's a real shot there, depending on how
the east falls out.
It is also absolutely crucial that Italy and/or Austria attack one
another, and soon. That may be impossible to make happen, but who knows?
I've got to try.
Hmm. Just got all this business about the EFG triple. Intriguing, because
I never mentioned the idea to Germany -- hadn't gotten around to it.
Erik
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
OK, we seem to be getting somewhere. If TRI - VEN is a definite then at
least it holds no surprises.
Can we work from here?
rom - ven, tri - ven bounce
nap - ion or tys (convoy nap to tun)
ven - pie
or
ven hold
rom - apu
nap - ion
Any move will do as long as you two are in agreement. Its not the basis for
a trustworthy start but Italy cant ignore the tri - ven move.
Are we going to continue down this avenue or are all bets off between ai?
Message from Germany to Turkey
Just gonna ride out the storm hey and pick up the pieces ;-)
How are things down there.
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
> Can we work from here?
yes...
>
> Any move will do as long as you two are in agreement. Its not the basis for
> a trustworthy start but Italy cant ignore the tri - ven move.
And since the Alpine Chicken is always the subterfuge to attack Austria
with, I wont do that either.
> Are we going to continue down this avenue or are all bets off between ai?
I am doing a plain, boring lepanto.
Message from France to England
Ben:
> The standard opening moves for the Western Triple are pretty safe for us
> -
> LON - NTH, EDI - NWG for me, BRE - MAO, PAR - BUR, MAR - SPA for you.
> Germany, though, orders to RUH, DEN, and SIL(!) & I've received private
> press from Germany proposing, if we were to carry it out, orders to SIL,
> DEN, and BOH! Can't hurt to listen to him, though frankly my instinct
> right
> now is just to look for an opportunity for us to take advantage of the
> armies out of position by dropping the hammer as hard as we can.
Wow, that's nuts. I can't believe he'd leave himself that open that early.
Either he's sincere or he's got something big cooking, and there hasn't
been enough time for the latter. I'm also still inclined to rush in and
take advantage of the good position.
Perhaps he's working to make sure that a.) you've got Russian headaches
and b.) I've got Italian headaches to ensure that we stick to the plan. We
should investigate that possiblity. I can tell you that Italy's repeated
warnings about Tony sound a tad fishy, though as we've both said, he's
probably just stirring up trouble.
>
> I don't trust him any further than I can throw him, but who knows where
> this
> dialogue will lead. Let me know what you think. One option will be you
> trying for MUN in the fall, which according to the Western Triple
> formula
> will be available.
I think we should go ahead with it. As you said, not much risk to us, and
I could end up in Bur within a season with every German army rushing
toward Russia. Let's roll with this, keep it quiet, and bring Russia into
the fold if we decide to reverse course and attack Germany after the first
season.
Of course, we've still got a few days of diplomacy, so this could change.
At least we're both on the same page -- triple if it really looks
promising (and we face threats from Russia and Italy), fake triple / EF
attack on Germany with possible Russian assistance otherwise. Can we agree
to that medium-term plan?
Erik
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> I am doing a plain, boring lepanto.
Do you mean:
Sprin -Rom-Ven (bounce), Ven-Apu & Nap-Ion
Fall -Rom-Ven (succeed), Apu-Ion-Tun & Ion c Apu-Tun
or
Spring -Ven hold or Ven-Tri, Rom-Apu & Nap-Ion
Fal l-Ven hold or Ven-Tri, Apu-ion-Tun & Ion c Apu-tun
I'm ok with both and will go with Andy's choice. With the
first, I'm free to send my fleet to Alb in the fall. With the
second, for what it's worth, we can simulate a conflict.
Philippe.
P.-S. Any news from Russia?
Message from Austria to Austria
I was about to comment on the sheer stupidity of GIAR
for me when I got Germany's follow up for GIA. Glad
to see he doesn't take me for a fool, at least not to my
face.
My plan, other then the strong desire to survive that I
have been repeating ad nauseam, is to attack Russia
with Turkey and Turkey with Italy.
If Turkey isn't taken out, I have no chance to solo. An
AT can give me a strong position, but not one strong
enough to go after a good Turkey without help.
On the other hand, if I limit myself to taking Turkey out
with the help of Russia & Italy, geography will dictate
who's the next to fall :-(
Ideally, I would wish to see Russia involved in the north
so I don't have to wait too long before also moving
against Turkey, but I'm not too hopefull given the level
of play in this game.
While I probably shouldn't even consider it anymore
following Andy's reaction to Tri-Ven, I'm still tempted
to go along with the dmz in Gal. With Vie-Bud to go
with Bud-Ser, I still have a shot at two builds. If I'm
able to get Turkey to open with a full attack on Russia,
I can go for Rum with Turkey's support in exchange for
supporting him in Sev next year. If he doesn't, then I
can go for Greece and see who denies it to me.
Now, what to do if Turkey doesn't come up with the
attack on Russia? I really want him to open to Bla &
Arm, but since he seem competent, pushing for it only
make it less probable. Suppose I will have to wait for
him to get back to me to figure this out.
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
this isnt helping the whole *trust* thing at all.
>
> Spring -Ven hold or Ven-Tri, Rom-Apu & Nap-Ion
> Fal l-Ven hold or Ven-Tri, Apu-ion-Tun & Ion c Apu-tun
I will be holding unless I see something in Tyrolia.
>
> I'm ok with both and will go with Andy's choice. With the
> first, I'm free to send my fleet to Alb in the fall. With the
> second, for what it's worth, we can simulate a conflict.
And I reserve the right to just take Tunis with the fleet if I dont like
what I see.
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> I will be holding unless I see something in Tyrolia.
> And I reserve the right to just take Tunis with the fleet if I dont like
> what I see.
Understood. Suggesting we simulate a conflict might
not have been appropriate given the context, but I
was only spelling out options (if my fleet is sitting in
Trieste this fall, she's available to support Ven, hold
or repeat Tri-Ven, but I will simply hold). I assure
you I had no ulterior motive here and I apologize if
I gave you that impression.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Italy
Andy,
Does it make sense to you that I trust you and believe
we can work together for our mutual benefit; but that
at the same time, I don't trust Italy in 1901?
I will of course accept that it's hard to return distrust
with anything but distrust; but I assure you this is only
short term and not aimed at you personaly but at the
power you are playing.
In the mean time, I will take whatever you have to give
and hope for better times,
Philippe
Message from France to England and Germany
>
> Well as stated in my reply. I would have to be very sure of an EFG to
> order
> that move.
> Lets start talking. Get the press going.
Couldn't agree more. If you're both amenable to a Western Triple, then I
think it's a good idea, too. Seems to me like RAI are getting pretty
friendly, and that's bad news for us -- after Turkey is dispatched, Italy
heads west, Russia heads north, and Austria bites into his German
neighbor. If we attack jointly early, we can take care of them while
they're still focusing on Turkey. With Italy being as cagey as he is
toward Germany and I, I think this is a very smart move.
So what are we each going to do specifically? I can open BRE - MAO, Mar -
SPA, Par - Bur, which is pretty standard western triple stuff. Or, we
could take this approach ...
http://devel.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Szykman/triple.html
Much more ambitious and with a better possible long-term reward, but it
only gets us one build each after the first year. Please take a look and
let me know what you think.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
My only specific plan right now is to make absolutely certain that an EG
alliance doesn't form. Since EG is bad news for you, too, I'd only ask
that you do everything in your diplomatic power to discourage it.
I think the early alliance structure will pan out shortly over here; at
this point, I'm favoring England, but I can say for certain in the next
couple of days. In any case, I would want to discuss getting you in place
to work against the survivor of the opening between those two. If there's
a quick war here in the west early, you've got time to resolve the south,
grow a bit, and be ready to swoop in and take on the surviving E or G with
me.
Of course, you may be interested in an anti-German or anti-English
opening off the bat, and that could change my plans completely. Please let
me know, if possible, if you're headed in that direction.
Austria and Italy seem cozy, but that's about all I have to offer. Any
info you can pass my way would be appreciated.
Erik
Message from France to Austria
Phillipe:
Glad to know you're getting along with Andy. He tore me up last game, so
maybe I'm just feeling a little wary toward him. The cryptic references he
and Germany are making to one another probably aren't helping.
Anyway, there's not much new to report in the west. England, Germany and I
are working out the details of Belgium occupation; I suspect it will end
up English in the interests of at least temporary peace. I get the
impression that everyone is worried about Tony (Germany), so that
certainly helps my chances. As long as there's no EG, I'm home free, right?
Any word from Russia or Turkey?
Erik
Message from France to Turkey
Jason:
Good to hear from you. Cross-board talk is always welcome; I'll try to
stay in touch as much as I can.
Gotta tell you, though, that early signs for you look bad. I could be
completely misinformed, but I think there's already talk of RAI
cooperation. Austria thinks that he and Italy are on good terms, and
Russia hasn't expressed much interest in heading north. You need to find a
regional friend fast. I have been trying to provoke animosity between AI,
but don't know if I've been successful. RAI is pretty bad for me, too,
because it usually means an early attack from Italy.
As for me -- my stance toward Italy is one of caution, given the history
I've got with Andy so far. You're right -- the early attack is rare, and
for good reason. Depending on how things shake out with EG, though, I
might be able to apply some pressure there if you need it. I should know
how things are shaking down here shortly -- just lots of Belgium-related
talk so far.
Just let me know how your negotiations are going, and I'll keep feeding
you whatever I hear. I'd hate to see you go down early.
Erik
Message from Germany to England and France
I like the look of it. Its a lot better than your suggested PAR - BUR ;-)
I would be willing to give it a try, only my moves can be considered really
agressive along with mar - pie.
France and I need to be pretty certain that england will join in and follow
through.
Lets see what england thinks.
Message from France to England
Ben:
On hindsight, I should have gone over that proposal with you first, but
what's done is done. I didn't think he'd ultimately go for the Par - Bur
opening, and his response confirms it.
In any case, a WT, even if we let it go longer than a couple of seasons,
still leaves us at an advantage. It's hard for Germany to build fleets and
justify them in this situation, and that's good for us.
Let me know what you think.
Erik
Message from Italy to Austria
> In the mean time, I will take whatever you have to give
> and hope for better times,
Philippe,
I have understood completely from the beginning.
And you have proven to me that you are as good a player as your reputation
speaks.
I think we are going to get along for a good long time.
take care
Andy
Message from Austria to Italy
> I have understood completely from the beginning.
Doesn't hurt to make sure ;-)
> And you have proven to me that you are as good a player as your reputation
> speaks.
I allready have a reputation? I just started playing
diplomacy on the internet last year and I wasn't
under the impression I had a reputation yet.
> I think we are going to get along for a good long time.
Looking forward to it,
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
albrigh <albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>so we are past 90 messages, and Austria hasn't written Italy yet.
>
>Knowing Andy, you'd have to assume he opens Ven-Tri anyway...is it now a
>done deal?
Don't know about that. S1901 Ven - Tri is the worst way to attack
Austria, in my experience.
>It seems that
>
>Experienced (good) players:
>1. Get a bullseye painted on their backs
To some extent, yes.
>2. Get deference in press treatment by the other players
In what way? I haven't particularly noticed any deference in the
press. I'd say there's a certain wariness, but all players are equals
in the game, and they are treating each other that way.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
**** Note ^^^^^^^^ I have a weblog, now! ****
Message from Observer to Observer
albrigh wrote:
> so we are past 90 messages, and Austria hasn't written Italy yet.
>
> Knowing Andy, you'd have to assume he opens Ven-Tri
> anyway...is it now a done deal?
I'd expect Ven-Tyl, Rom-Ven, or Ven-Pie, Rom-Ven.
Though now that Austria has proposed Tri-Ven, Ven-Tri
becomes much more likely.
> It seems that
>
> Experienced (good) players:
> 1. Get a bull's-eye painted on their backs
Well, a large part of pre-S1901M negotiation is a
matter of telling everyone that they should attack
someone other than you. Whether it's because
player X has a NNNN JDPR, or because Power F
wins more often than any other, or Power E has
to stab you to Solo.
> 2. Get deference in press treatment by the other players
This isn't something I've seen much of.
Eric.
Message from England to France and Germany
Gentlemen -
I have out of town company & will get back to you probably Sunday. I see
you have a proposal(s) on the table & I wish I had time to look at it but I
don't - sorry.
Ben
Message from Observer to Observer
Well, Austria & Italy are talking, now, and it looks like Ven H is the
most likely result. Austria isn't going for the Galicia self-bounce
idea, so the IR blitz on A isn't looking very likely.
But the biggest problem I see now is Turkey's lack of communication.
I suppose it could just be that he can't email from work, and his
press volume will pick up as the US heads into evening, though.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
**** Note ^^^^^^^^ I have a weblog, now! ****
Message from Turkey to Russia
Thanks for the update. Good luck keeping Austria in his place.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Good to hear from you again.
I'm getting mixed signals over here. AIR all seem to be friendly to me,
but France is telling me that they're all out to get me. Not sure where
the truth lies.
Thanks for the info on Andy. I watched him in the last game, and was
quite impressed with his performance. I'll certainly keep my eye on him.
jason
Message from Turkey to Germany
Appreciate the reply.
I have heard from Austria, and he does seem a little twitchy, but then
again who isn't? :-)
France is telling me that AIR are going in together, so I'm not sure
exactly what to believe. Anything you can pass on about that would be
appreciated.
jason
Message from Turkey to France
Good to hear from you, and I appreciate the warning.
So far, AIR all seem individually friendly, but of course that can
change in an instant. I don't think they're planning on coming after me
together, but they might draw that conclusion separately.
Good luck out there in the west. I'll try and keep in touch.
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
Your plan for the Balkans certainly sounds like an excellent idea. Let's
make sure to keep on top of it, once the initial moves are through.
jason
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
>Since EG is bad news for you, too, I'd only ask
>that you do everything in your diplomatic power to discourage it.
EG doesn't sound likely so far, but I'll keep stoking whatever fires I can.
>Of course, you may be interested in an anti-German or anti-English
>opening off the bat, and that could change my plans completely. Please let
>me know, if possible, if you're headed in that direction.
I don't have any immediate anti-E or anti-G plans (as in, War-Sil, or
Mos-StP). I have the distinct impression that there has been some
significant central triple discussion going on, and in that sense, I
wouldn't be disappointed to see Germany fall fairly quickly, however.
By turns I hear that AI are bosom buddies and then that they are completely
at each others' throats (either of which is pretty impressive for so early
in the game!) FWIW, from what I hear Andy/Italy will be leaving you alone
and focusing east. If true, that should give you flexibility to be fairly
bold vis-a-vis Germany or England.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Turkey
Sultan Jason,
I'm getting more and more interested in RT cooperation as I get hints of
what's going on to the west. What's your take on things? Do you mind
sharing your thoughts on how the other players are aligned? I get the sense
that there are strong alliances forming to the north and the west.
Thanks for anything you can shed light on.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Italy
So what's your take on the G to RAI press? I suspect it's a tactic to
hamstring IR cooperation.
How do you think we should handle it? My take is that assuming Turkey is on
board with RTI v A, there's really not much that Germany can do if we
attack Austria -- well, there's not much he can do to you -- he might be
able to do something to me, but hopefully EF will keep him busy.
The real question is do we agree to this plan and undermine it later, or do
we debate it down to the point that it's next to useless. I lean towards
the latter, even though I realize the former has its merits.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
>According to Andy our Germany is hell on wheels, so watch your back.
I'm getting that impression without needing a reputation to confirm it!
Very interesting press coming from him. Based on what I've heard from him
so far, I do request that you not trust anything he says about me without
checking in with me for confirmation. I don't mean "are you going to stab
me" stuff (you wouldn't believe my answer whatever I said if you are
worried about one). I mean, if he tells you I'm mad at someone, or want to
see someone hurt, etc. please check in with me before taking action based
on it. I just get the distinct impression that he may be pretty loose with
his portrayal of other players' mindsets and situations.
Again, I may be being paranoid, but perhaps better to be safe and mention
the concern. What are you hearing from GF?
>when you happen to have your fleet in Sweden
>F'01, we may be able to find some good things to do with it in '02, looking
>forward.
That is the point of putting it there, though obviously Germany had some
different suggestions about how it could be effective. But since Germany
(1) is clearly an "operator" and (2) can hit both Scandinavia and my home
centers, I see lots of value in working with you to knock him out quickly.
Basically, I'm fine with playing things by ear, but I'm also up for talking
about how we might move forward from that position in F'02. I'd want to
move towards a position that is defensible in the north without being
threatening to you. That probably means another northern fleet to secure
Den/Bal, but to be honest I don't remember the minimum unit counts that the
other Eric kept talking about in C1. I'll look it up and get more specific
as we go forward.
Just trying to get a sense of what kinds of things would constitute "good
things" to do. I personally find it's a good idea to talk stuff out
hypothetically before the fact, so that we can more easily come up with
mutually agreeable plans when our units get closer together.
Sound good? Anything else we need to talk about?
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Russia
>Message from Germany to Russia, Austria and Italy in 'c2':
[...]
>So far GIA have been trying to coordinate plans. So has
>Austria and Russia and Germany and Russia. With Russia on board then we can
>at least build on a 4 some to start off with.
Interesting.
Does it strike any of you that telling me about pre-existing GIA
conversations is a risky thing to do? Or broadcasting details of my GR
communications with IA without checking with me first?
It's a very interesting strategy. I can see lots of benefits, especially in
trying to keep Austria strong and an RI from forming. But if he didn't
check with IA first either, it could do just as much damage as good. This
isn't a strategy I've seen before, so I'm not sure how to respond.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
>How are things going in the north?
Things in the north are going fine, but in my experience things are always
fine before moves are made.
What do you think of Germany's suggestion? In principle I'm very happy to
promise all three of you (GIA) that I will not go to Gal, Pru or Sil if
that's what our final agreements are (you and I may still decide to bounce
in Gal). But I don't know Germany or Italy so well to know if it makes
sense to tie all of our actions together. Do you think we need a four way
agreement to be able to cooperate?
Just trying to figure out whether this is something that is Germany's idea,
or something that GIA all support.
Thanks,
--- Tzarface
Message from Observer to Observer
>Message from ericgood@pacbell.net as Russia to Russia in 'c2':
>
>
>>Message from Germany to Russia, Austria and Italy in 'c2':
>[...]
>>So far GIA have been trying to coordinate plans. So has
>>Austria and Russia and Germany and Russia. With Russia on board then we can
>>at least build on a 4 some to start off with.
>
>Interesting.
>
>Does it strike any of you that telling me about pre-existing GIA
>conversations is a risky thing to do? Or broadcasting details of my GR
>communications with IA without checking with me first?
Well, it'll be a while before you get to see this answer, Eric, but
yes, I think it's a risky thing to do, as evidenced by the fact that
you're questioning it.
>It's a very interesting strategy. I can see lots of benefits, especially in
>trying to keep Austria strong and an RI from forming. But if he didn't
>check with IA first either, it could do just as much damage as good. This
>isn't a strategy I've seen before, so I'm not sure how to respond.
Well, depending on which list you read first, you may already know,
but he didn't check with IA before revealing this info to R. if I
were Austria or Italy, I'd be somewhat annoyed.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
**** Note ^^^^^^^^ I have a weblog, now! ****
Message from Italy to Russia
> So what's your take on the G to RAI press? I suspect it's a tactic to
> hamstring IR cooperation.
Or just keep you onside for a year. Which is what he alludes to in his
next press to just Austria and I.
> How do you think we should handle it? My take is that assuming Turkey is on
> board with RTI v A, there's really not much that Germany can do if we
> attack Austria -- well, there's not much he can do to you -- he might be
> able to do something to me, but hopefully EF will keep him busy.
No. But Austria is so paranoid of me, I have to appear nuetral until the
fall season. He is hedgehogging on me. So I have to stay at home.
> The real question is do we agree to this plan and undermine it later, or do
> we debate it down to the point that it's next to useless. I lean towards
> the latter, even though I realize the former has its merits.
I dont think we do either implicitely, we agree to it tacitly in the open
and then we do whatever the hell we want. And you explain it away any way
you want to....ie....it was too good to be true....or whatever.
Andy
Message from Observer to Observer
> Message from ericgood@pacbell.net as Russia to Russia in 'c2':
>
>> Message from Germany to Russia, Austria and Italy in 'c2':
> [...]
>> So far GIA have been trying to coordinate plans. So has
>> Austria and Russia and Germany and Russia. With Russia on board
>> then we can at least build on a 4 some to start off with.
>
> Interesting.
>
> Does it strike any of you that telling me about pre-existing GIA
> conversations is a risky thing to do? Or broadcasting details of my
> GR communications with IA without checking with me first?
Yes, I was stunned to see this from Germany, and
his earlier Broadcast about England expressing an
interest in Belgium. I don't know what the German
is thinking, but if I was playing against him, he'd
already be mark down as someone who can't be
trusted to maintain a confidence.
Eric.
Message from Austria to Russia
> Things in the north are going fine, but in my experience things are always
> fine before moves are made.
Same feeling in regard of Italy. Also, while I much prefer to
see you go for Sev-Bla & Mos-Sev if you can get away
with it, I'm fine with seeing you take care of your northern
interest with Mos-Sev; but in the long run, I do expect you
to actively cooperate with me in the south and not simply
use me to contain Turkey ;-) Not that I believe this would
actually happen, but better safe then sorry.
> What do you think of Germany's suggestion? In principle I'm very happy to
> promise all three of you (GIA) that I will not go to Gal, Pru or Sil if
> that's what our final agreements are (you and I may still decide to bounce
> in Gal). But I don't know Germany or Italy so well to know if it makes
> sense to tie all of our actions together. Do you think we need a four way
> agreement to be able to cooperate?
No I don't; but since it's there I will take it.
> Just trying to figure out whether this is something that is Germany's idea,
> or something that GIA all support.
It's Germany's idea and I will go along with it. If GIA allow
me to work with you without having to worry about my
back, I'm not about to complain; but I'm not about to limit
RA's collaboration to what GIAR think is appropriate.
Since we are talking of Germany, what do you think of
France and England? Tony is obviously an expert diplomat
and I was wondering about Ben and Erik. Will they be up
to the task or should I be warry of having to deal with a
strong Germany at my back soon?
Philippe
Message from Austria to Turkey
Hi Jason,
So, how's you negociation been going? Has Russia
professed his intent to leave the Black Sea alone
and sung the joy of the Juggernaut alliance yet ;-)
For my part, I think I was able to insure I wasn't
going to fall early, so our discussions aren't going to
be a big waste of time for you.
Best regards,
Philippe
Message from Germany to Russia
Didnt you receive my very very long press? I have a few details I wish to
pass on but I am still awaiting a reply from you.
Message from Germany to Turkey
Hi Jason, France has said many things. He continuously warns me that Italy
sees me as a big threat and doesnt trust me.
As for the AIR, this seems very unlikely. By now I would have thought that
you, Italy and Russia had already shared all Austrian SC's amongst you.
I did hear from Italy, he informed me that you were very quiet. How are
negotiations going with IR?
Tony
Message from England to France and Germany
> So what are we each going to do specifically? I can open BRE - MAO, Mar -
> SPA, Par - Bur, which is pretty standard western triple stuff. Or, we
> could take this approach ...
>
> http://devel.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Szykman/triple.html
>
> Much more ambitious and with a better possible long-term reward, but it
> only gets us one build each after the first year. Please take a look and
> let me know what you think.
This looks like a blast. I'm in.
Ben
p.s. I grabbed 30 seconds to look at the site & send this - if this is not
the proposal I should be looking at let me know.
Message from England to all
Gentlemen -
I have out of town company this weekend & will not likely be available
until about 36 hour from now. Which is roughly a day and a half, in Tony's
time.
Thank you for your patience.
Ben
Message from Austria to France
> impression that everyone is worried about Tony (Germany), so that
> certainly helps my chances. As long as there's no EG, I'm home free, right?
Given Tony's caliber, I doubt he would enter into a very restrictive
EG alliance with provision against the building of german fleets; but
this doesn't mean you aren't at risk of being attack by him anyway.
It's just that his game probably won't be limited to attacking you if
he does start that way.
> Any word from Russia or Turkey?
Talked to both, but haven't made my mind about them yet. What's
your first impression of them?
Philippe
Message from Turkey to Russia
Tsar,
I'm getting various signals from the west. Austria seems to have some
sort of alliance under his belt, as he's confident of survival, but I
couldn't say what it is (Leptano?) France is casting gloom and doom
everywhere, but EFG seems up in the air. Germany actually said that he
wants RT! Italy has been friendly, but I know he's a devious sort as well.
Right now, I'm hoping the openings reveal more than talk alone, but that
remains to be seen. I'm certainly happy to work with you. Let's stick to
our current plan, as I've been downplaying RT to everyone, and see where
it takes us.
jason
Message from Turkey to Germany
Thanks for letting me know about Italy. We've talked some, but I'll make
sure to drop him another note.
Otherwise, negotiations seem to be going well. As I said before,
everyone's fairly friendly at the outset. Both I and R have similar
designs on the middle, but Austria is claiming to have made some sort of
breakthrough in talks to secure his future, but I have no idea what that
means.
How goes EFG?
jason
Message from Turkey to Austria
Good to hear from you.
Russia has been friendly, but I'm being cautious, as I should. RT is
more myth than fact, anyway.
Glad to hear that you've secured your future. Where that does leave you
free to turn?
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
Germany mentioned that you felt I had been very quiet, so I wanted to
make sure that you didn't think I was avoiding you because of my devious
plan to destroy you! :-)
As I mentioned before, I'm very happy to work with you to secure the
Balkans. Austria is telling me that he has done something to secure his
future, but obviously I have no idea what that means. Have you and he
come to some sort of agreement?
jason
Message from Germany to Turkey
EFG is on hold. England is away. We all seem to mistrust each other. I guess
it will be just standard openings to await what happens.
Message from Observer to Observer
--- In c2b@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dowling <politas@e...> wrote:
>
> >2. Get deference in press treatment by the other players
>
> In what way? I haven't particularly noticed any deference in the
> press. I'd say there's a certain wariness, but all players are
equals
> in the game, and they are treating each other that way.
HEre is what I mean.
The relationship between Germany and lower-ranked players is such
that much more information travels TO Germany. Germany involves
himself more in other people's business, without the reverse being
true.
I will provide a specific example, note below that Germany commits
to nothing, throws some ideas out, etc. Odds are way in the favor of
seeing:
1) England commit to something first
2) Give more specific information (not just hypotheses) to Germany
3) Germany will make sure that nothing could ever be pinned on him,
should England want to go back and review press.
I found the same thing in Comments1. For example, in early
discussions with Italy (I was Turkey), the natural discussions ended
up about what I was doing. I'd have to ask specific questions to
get out of Italy anything specific.
*********************************
Message from tvernon@c... as Germany to England in 'c2':
Hello Ben *timestamp* sent at 10:10 a.m.
So how are negotiations going? I have spoken to all my neighbours
now. I just
have Turkey left.
Italy mentioned that he had spoken to you and directly asked me if
GI had plans
from the gate.
I can only assume that he was referring to your intention on moving
on BEL.
Maybe he sees this as a possible E against F which he maybe would
like to
combine with a GI against France.
I informed him that I was still making my rounds. I got the
impression that AI
are friendly as ar RT. I have yet to speak to Turkey so I cant
confirm this.
The French asked me to discuss Belgium with him. This was before he
knew that
you had an eye on Belgium. A french interest for Belgium is usually
used as a
springboard for a convoy to england or an eventual attack on Gemany.
How are
negotiations going on the ENG channel?
It may also mean that he just wants to know my intention with
Belgium. Usually
a german invasion of Belgium spells trouble for France or s solid
front line
between the two nations to allow the other to look elsewhere.
Taking the Italians comments into account an EG friendship seems the
most
likely. I guess you will have to wait and see how the Russian opens.
If he is
friendly with Turkey then I can only assume that Austria is the
intended
target. This gives you and I room to manouvre in the north. Lets see
how it
goes. I dont mind you getting BEL but I would obviously only like to
see a
fleet there. Maybe an opening edi - nwg, lon - nth, lvp - edi would
leave all
options open for you. But I would only allow a fleet into Belgium.
Message from Observer to Observer
This may have been covered in some DipPouch article, and I have
missed it....
But I found in interesting to see Austria employ a strategy linking
A-R relations on Gal and G-R relations on Swe.
Austria told Russia that they didn't need to bounce in Gal in S1901.
If Russia moved to Gal in S1901, then Austria would have Germany
bounce Russia in Sweden in F1901.
I don't see Russia to go directly to Germany and asking "If I attack
Gal in the Spring, will you bounce me in Swe". This would be risky
for Russia.
Alert Germany that there are A-R conflict possibilities
I think this keeps Russia out of Gal.
Message from Observer to Observer
I wrote;
> > 2. [experience players] Get deference in press treatment by the
other players
--- In c2b@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hunter" <Dip_Power@c...> wrote:
>
> This isn't something I've seen much of.
Eric,
I'm pretty sure if I posted an observation stating that the sun
rises in the east and sets in the west, you would disagree with me.
Andrew
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Russia has been friendly, but I'm being cautious, as I should. RT is
> more myth than fact, anyway.
It sometime work for Russia, rarely for Turkey.
> Glad to hear that you've secured your future. Where that does leave you
> free to turn?
Anywhere. I made sure I would have a future, not that
it would be a prosperous one. Once I see that my
efforts to prevent my quick elimination have paid up,
then I will be free to improve my lot.
In the mean time, I would appreciate your letting me
know more about your own position. For example,
we have discussed Rumania & Greece, but your
position is still unclear. I told you I have no preference
between either of them, but if Rumania is not open
because it's not going to be constested to Russia, then
I would hope to get Greece without risking a conflict
with you.
At the moment, we are far from the "solid agreement"
you talked about and I hope it's not because it's been
made with someone else ;-)
Regards,
Philippe
Message from Turkey to Austria
> In the mean time, I would appreciate your letting me
> know more about your own position.
I understand your concern. Briefly, I don't have any solid agreements
right now, just a bunch of we'll-see's and hope-so's. Russia and I are
bouncing in BLA, so he won't be taking Rum in the spring. If you want to
try for it in the fall, I'm more than happy for you to have it and I
take Greece.
Obviously, if Russia gets Rum and you get Ser and Gre, that leaves me at
somewhat of a disadvantage. I'd prefer to avoid that.
jason
Message from Austria to Turkey
> I understand your concern. Briefly, I don't have any solid agreements
> right now, just a bunch of we'll-see's and hope-so's. Russia and I are
> bouncing in BLA, so he won't be taking Rum in the spring. If you want to
> try for it in the fall, I'm more than happy for you to have it and I
> take Greece.
Thing is, without a commitment to war against Russia
on your part, I don't see myself contesting Rumania.
> Obviously, if Russia gets Rum and you get Ser and Gre, that leaves me at
> somewhat of a disadvantage. I'd prefer to avoid that.
I would also prefer we both get 2 builds, but without
some kind of plan for Rumania, it's not going to happen.
So, what are you suggesting? Would you prefer we both
get to be 4 sc power while Russia goes from 4 to 6?
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
albrigh wrote:
> This may have been covered in some DipPouch article, and I have
> missed it....
>
> But I found in interesting to see Austria employ a strategy linking
> A-R relations on Gal and G-R relations on Swe.
It's called the Anschluss, and was written up by Richard Sharp.
http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/strategy/articles/anschluss.htm
It's more traditionally done from the German side than the
Austrian one, though. Basically, Germany guarantees
Austria's early survival by threatening to bounce Russia
from Sweden if Russia moves to Gal, and warns Italy
against moving to Tyl.
Eric.
Message from Turkey to Austria
There's no plan for Rumania that I can see that will guarantee us both 2
builds. Even if you move to Bud and Ser, Russia can bounce you with Sev
and Ukr. If I support you from Bul, I don't get Gre.
Obviously, we can do the reverse (you get Gre, I get Rum) if you move
Tri to Alb. That also assumes you aren't bouncing Russia in Gal.
Without knowing how you and Russia will move in the spring, it's hard to
plan.
jason
Message from Austria to Turkey
I'm afraid you're right about us getting two build each this
year being unprobable. When I wrote it, I forgot that it
implied your getting in the Black Sea, sorry about that. At
most, we can hope to balance things out within a few years.
Still, what do we do? If we only play the wait and see game,
handling Russia won't get easier. He will expand faster then
us, or at least one of us, and be able to count on Italy.
I kind of see three possibilities:
-One of us get Greece and the other hope the build is going
to be use against Russia instead of himself.
-We make sure of remaining on equal footing for the moment
by bouncing over Greece.
-We agree right away on an anti-russian strategy that would
block his expansion and allow us to make gains at his expense.
In case you wonder, I would be ok with your getting Sev & Gre
while I get Rum and your assistance to pursue into Russia.
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
albrigh <albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>--- In c2b@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dowling <politas@e...> wrote:
>
>>
>> >2. Get deference in press treatment by the other players
>>
>> In what way? I haven't particularly noticed any deference in the
>> press. I'd say there's a certain wariness, but all players are
>equals
>> in the game, and they are treating each other that way.
>
>HEre is what I mean.
>
>The relationship between Germany and lower-ranked players is such
>that much more information travels TO Germany. Germany involves
>himself more in other people's business, without the reverse being
>true.
Ah, I see what you mean, but I wouldn't call that "deference".
Deference implies that the lesser-ranked people would be doing like
"Well, I'm so lucky to playing in a game with you, why don't you tell
me what to do?" ie, they defer their judgement onto the experienced
player. That's not happening.
------------
deference
\Def"er*ence\, n. [F. d['e]f['e]rence. See 3d Defer.] A yielding of
judgment or preference from respect to the wishes or opinion of
another; submission in opinion; regard; respect; complaisance.
Deference to the authority of thoughtful and sagacious men. --Whewell.
Deference is the most complicate, the most indirect, and the most
elegant of all compliments. --Shenstone.
---------------
>I will provide a specific example, note below that Germany commits
>to nothing, throws some ideas out, etc. Odds are way in the favor of
>seeing:
>1) England commit to something first
>2) Give more specific information (not just hypotheses) to Germany
>3) Germany will make sure that nothing could ever be pinned on him,
>should England want to go back and review press.
>
>I found the same thing in Comments1. For example, in early
>discussions with Italy (I was Turkey), the natural discussions ended
>up about what I was doing. I'd have to ask specific questions to
>get out of Italy anything specific.
Ah, yep. Not deference. Manipulation, interrogation, controlling the
boundaries of the discussion without being obvious about it. More to
the point, this is not something that the less-experienced players are
doing, but rather it is something the more experienced players are
doing.
http://devel.diplom.org/Zine/F1997R/Windsor/lawdip.html
is a great article containing some of the basics of the idea. It's a
great article, and one that everyone should read at some stage. It's
not quite what you're talking about, but the basis of the idea of
controlling the discussion to your advantage is there.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
Grabbed a few seconds to send out a quick note:
> >According to Andy our Germany is hell on wheels, so watch your back.
>
> I'm getting that impression without needing a reputation to confirm it!
>
> Very interesting press coming from him. Based on what I've heard from him
> so far, I do request that you not trust anything he says about me without
> checking in with me for confirmation. I don't mean "are you going to stab
> me" stuff (you wouldn't believe my answer whatever I said if you are
> worried about one). I mean, if he tells you I'm mad at someone, or want to
> see someone hurt, etc. please check in with me before taking action based
> on it. I just get the distinct impression that he may be pretty loose with
> his portrayal of other players' mindsets and situations.
Of course the same is true for me. I have already heard X from him and Y
from another player & I suspect the truth to be Y.
> Again, I may be being paranoid, but perhaps better to be safe and mention
> the concern. What are you hearing from GF?
So far everyone is getting along ok, as far as I can tell, here in the
west. No flashpoint, but no firm resolution of the ususal sore spots,
either.
> >when you happen to have your fleet in Sweden
> >F'01, we may be able to find some good things to do with it in '02,
looking
> >forward.
>
> That is the point of putting it there, though obviously Germany had some
> different suggestions about how it could be effective. But since Germany
> (1) is clearly an "operator" and (2) can hit both Scandinavia and my home
> centers, I see lots of value in working with you to knock him out quickly.
Good. Keep that thought. We'll put it to use, when the time is right.
> Basically, I'm fine with playing things by ear, but I'm also up for
talking
> about how we might move forward from that position in F'02. I'd want to
> move towards a position that is defensible in the north without being
> threatening to you. That probably means another northern fleet to secure
> Den/Bal, but to be honest I don't remember the minimum unit counts that
the
> other Eric kept talking about in C1. I'll look it up and get more specific
> as we go forward.
I am all in favor of reasonable garrisons to protect our peaceful border.
But the large deployment necessary to have the "minimum units" for the
protection of Northern Russia may not be an efficient use of your units.
Do the research, I encourage you, but you are talking about more units then
dots. You would find you had no units to maintain the hotter fronts in
your south. We will cross this bridge when we come to it, though.
> Just trying to get a sense of what kinds of things would constitute "good
> things" to do. I personally find it's a good idea to talk stuff out
> hypothetically before the fact, so that we can more easily come up with
> mutually agreeable plans when our units get closer together.
Absolutely.
> Sound good? Anything else we need to talk about?
In general I have had success with Russia by going into Germany or the
Turkish/Balkan area. I have not had success - though I've tried it -
becoming a naval power in the Atlantic. Basically beyond Norway there's
not much for you, just as beyond STP there's not much for me. It is
another reason for us to be allied, I think.
Anyway it is always excellent to hear from you.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> I'm getting mixed signals over here. AIR all seem to be friendly to me,
> but France is telling me that they're all out to get me. Not sure where
> the truth lies.
I do not need to tell you that AIR v. T is a common combination. I do not
have any special knowledge of it, though, here. What of the Black Sea,
then? If you are worried about an AIR then I think your best hope is to
hold them all off as long as possible & see if they start to fall on each
other, or something like that. I'd be glad to help you sort truth from
fiction if there are things you want me to bounce off some of your
neighbors.
> Thanks for the info on Andy. I watched him in the last game, and was
> quite impressed with his performance. I'll certainly keep my eye on him.
Peaceful coexistence between Turkey and Italy is difficult, I think
possible only where one commits to being an army power & the other a sea
power. It's tricky.
I wish I had good information for you but the Eastern powers have been
pretty quiet about their plans. Oh well.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> On hindsight, I should have gone over that proposal with you first, but
> what's done is done. I didn't think he'd ultimately go for the Par - Bur
> opening, and his response confirms it.
That's ok. Next time we can discuss it together but really I think this
suggestion was outstanding. See below.
> In any case, a WT, even if we let it go longer than a couple of seasons,
> still leaves us at an advantage. It's hard for Germany to build fleets and
> justify them in this situation, and that's good for us.
I suppose. My concern is that soon after S'02, I will have filled NWY,
SWE, and STP, and you will be trying to grind out dots against Andy, and
Tony will have his choice of either the southern Russian centers, or the
Austrian centers, to be followed soon enough by the other. I just think,
after this opening has gotten out of the gate, it favors Germany. So long
term I do not know how well this works for us, though if we decide to try
to make it work I will work harder at justifying it to myself. ;-) Also
you do not want to find yourself between Tony & the remnants of Andy. But
see below.
> Let me know what you think.
Two things. First of all Tony has not actually committed yet. He said he
wanted to see what I thought, & I said I was in, but he has not said he
would do it yet. Not that we should harp on it; I'm just pointing that out.
Second. Because of the drawbacks for us as we push into '02 and beyond,
let me point out an alternate set of orders for Fall '01:
England
EDI - NTH - HOL
NWG - NWY
France
GAS - BUR
PIE - TYR
MAO - SPA/sc
This would restrict you to one build but if successful would give you *two*
units against an undefended MUN in S '02, and Germany would only be getting
one build as well. We would crush him. By the end of '02 we should have
two to three builds each with open lanes to the east in front of us.
The key would be getting Andy not to freak out as you passed from PIE -
TYR. I think we could do it, diplomatically, & I would try to exert some
influence there too to help you out. Perhaps rather than involve him now,
just try to smooth things over in the fall after you've entered PIE in the
spring. I'll leave it to you - you know him better than I do.
Thoughts?
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
Had a laugh at myself when I reread this:
> > Just trying to get a sense of what kinds of things would constitute
"good
> > things" to do. I personally find it's a good idea to talk stuff out
> > hypothetically before the fact, so that we can more easily come up with
> > mutually agreeable plans when our units get closer together.
> Absolutely.
:-) Didn't mean to dodge your question. I'm alittle reluctant to start
assigning some dots to you, some to me, etc., as we do not know what
outside forces will be exerted against us or our mutual target(s). But it
would be something roughly along the famous stalemate line, I think.
Ben
Message from England to England
Gallery -
In my wildest dreams Tony will agree to this opening. It seems to me, a
relative newcomer, to have no incentive for England to stick with it,
unless France is insisting on it. Low long term payoff and a stab target
in F'01.
Meanwhile if Erik & Tony agree - no sure thing - I could end up with a
dominant position over Germany & allies in France & Russia who are too
badly embroiled in conflict elsewhere to turn & face me.
Anyway I hope there is some dialogue on this opening so I can review it,
after my plans backfire & I'm eliminated in '05.
Ben
Message from Observer to Observer
> Message from benjamin.harris@mindspring.com as England to England in 'c2':
>
> Anyway I hope there is some dialogue on this opening so I can review it,
> after my plans backfire & I'm eliminated in '05.
We can't disappoint Ben, can we?
> Gallery -
> In my wildest dreams Tony will agree to this opening. It seems to
> me, a relative newcomer, to have no incentive for England to stick
> with it, unless France is insisting on it. Low long term payoff and
> a stab target in F'01.
>
> Meanwhile if Erik & Tony agree - no sure thing - I could end up with
> a dominant position over Germany & allies in France & Russia who are
> too badly embroiled in conflict elsewhere to turn & face me.
I like this opening that Ben and Erik and Tony are discussing. For Ben
and Erik, it gets them off to what should be a good start. It gives
them the option to do a triple or to stab Germany, depending on which
option looks most promising. I think this is the most interesting
opening under discussion so far. I tend to root for whoever I find
most interesting, so right now I'm rooting for Ben, and to a slightly
lesser degree, Erik.
One thing I don't like about Ben's plans here, is he doesn't seem to
be thinking through to the endgame. His thinking only takes him to
midgame at best. I strongly believe that you should always be thinking
about where your eighteenth center is going to come from. So, if I
were Ben, my thinking might be something like this:
-----
I'm going to convince FG that as part of our alliance, I should get
Belgium. Of course I'll take Norway on 1901. Belgium might be taken in
'01 or '02 depending on whether or not we go with the Szykman plan
that Erik pointed out. Next, I'll move east and take Sweden and StP.
Unfortunately, Germany will take Warsaw and Moscow, preventing any
further gains on that front. That'll put me at seven centers.
In order to get to eighteen, I need to either advance into Russia or
move into the Med. There's no way, I can enter the Med while I'm still
allied with France, so I'm going to have to attack either France or
Germany. I'm not completely convinced that Germany is the master
player that Italy presents him as, but I am convinced that I can work
with France better. Thus, I'm gonna try to get France to join me
against Germany. If I can pull it off well enough, French neutrality
might be sufficient.
If I can manage to keep AIT fighting in the Balkans, I should be able
to grab Holland and Denmark from Germany. Of course, the real goal is
Warsaw and Moscow. They can be defended from the north, so if I take
everything else on my side of the stalemate line that gives me
nineteen centers. Unfortunately, it's hard to get there without going
through Germany first. So, I may have to slug through Germany to get
to them.
If all goes well, I can take the German centers, Denmark, Holland,
Warsaw and Moscow. That would put me at fourteen. If France helps me,
I'll probably have to let him have Munich and Belgium and maybe even
Holland. That would put me at eleven or twelve.
If I can get that far, I'll probably find myself up against a stop
England coalition. In the East, I'll just defend. My hope to win will
be to take France and Iberia. Marseilles can be hard to take from the
north, but if I hold both Moscow and Warsaw, I don't need it anyway.
--------
Of course, events wouldn't work out exactly as I hoped. So each turn,
I'd be reevaluating how I need to try to shape events to try to get to
eighteen. Also, if I were playing, I'd think a little more in depth
about how to take Moscow and Warsaw than I did for writing this.
Greg
Message from Turkey to England
I think the AIR thing is just talk on France's part. Russia and I are
bouncing in BLA, and Austria is doing everything he can to get me to
attack Russia with him.
Italy seems to be complaining that I'm quiet, but I haven't heard from
him in days. Not sure what he's up to. Hopefully nothing with Russia. :-)
Hang tight over there. I'll let you know if FG says anything of interest.
jason
Message from Turkey to Austria
If you're ok giving me Sev and Gre, I'm more than happy to work with you
on Rum and beyond. I'll certainly make sure to put my builds to good use.
jason
Message from France to Austria
>
> Talked to both, but haven't made my mind about them yet.
> What's your first impression of them?
Not much yet. Russia's been friendly, but Turkey hasn't offered a whole
lot that I can go with. My impression is the Eric is still getting a
feel for the situation, while Turkey doesn't see the point in spending
too much time talking to me. Still early, though.
Erik
Message from Observer to Observer
<snip>
> But the biggest problem I see now is Turkey's lack of communication.
> I suppose it could just be that he can't email from work, and his
> press volume will pick up as the US heads into evening, though.
This seems to be roughly the case, although he is still probably the
quietest of the seven in terms of volume.
In a wider sense, how potentially significant is an early lack of
communication such as the one Turkey seemed to have initially?
As Mike says, it could just be that he can't email from work - but even so,
that seems already to have put him at a disadvantage. Speaking as someone
else who has been left at the starter gate in a game due to a combination of
time zones and inability to correspond during working hours, I'm always at a
bit of a loss as to how I can overcome this. Obviously it places a higher
emphasis onto volume and quality of press when time does become available.
It is also a potential issue further into the game - many of these guys do
seem to have access/ability to send press through most of the waking hours,
which makes it far easier to design plans, reach agreements, employ
deceptions etc than someone who gets to send press maybe first thing in the
morning and then a couple of times in the evening.
It strikes me that this issue shouldn't be an insurmountable issue for a
good player, but in many cases I could imagine that it could make the
difference between a good start and an average one.
Alastair
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason,
> Germany mentioned that you felt I had been very quiet, so I wanted to
> make sure that you didn't think I was avoiding you because of my devious
> plan to destroy you! :-)
I understand. And no, I dont think you are going to destroy me. As a
matter of fact, I think we can work together come this fall.
> As I mentioned before, I'm very happy to work with you to secure the
> Balkans. Austria is telling me that he has done something to secure his
> future, but obviously I have no idea what that means. Have you and he
> come to some sort of agreement?
In his eyes....he probably has.
Lets talk after the first set of moves.
Andy
Message from Italy to England
> It looks like you wrote Erik already about Germany, which will help. I
> imagine you wrote Eric, too, - why wouldn't you - but it will help.
Yes.
Curious
> to know what you hear from Austria, who still hasn't written me.
Have you written him, he says he hasnt heard from you.
I'm
> guessing he's the source of the original grey broadcast. I saw he's had one
> solo & it was with Austria; it may have been a newbie game.
I will have my hands full with him in at least the short term.
> I'm getting a sense Eric will open south - what else would he tell me - but
> I imagine he'd make a good partner for you.
Eric and I have never shared a game together, but we are familiar with
each other.
Andy
Message from Italy to Italy
Hi Commentators....
In the first Comments game, I didnt know I was supposed to express my
thoughts to our obserervers through press to myself. So here goes...
1. For the first couple of years of any game, write to everyone, always
keep your finger on the pulse of what is going on, and hear what everyone
has to say. This is sometimes, totally a pain in the ass, but most of the
time it reaps rewards later in the game.
2. I am of the school that you must get out of the gate quickly. This game
is alittle different with such a paranoid Austrian and my history with
France (see game sete/USVG) for details on that. Oh...and I killed him in
the first Comments game.
3. Russia is potentially my best ally on the board at this point. Right
now, I have to concentrate on getting my agreements in place in the east,
and keeping EF together to kill the German. Tony Vernon is a fantastic
player and left in the hands of the relative newbies in EF, that must be
corraled continually.
thanks folks....
I will try to do this regularly so that you know where I am.
Andy
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
I have been thinking about what you said, in reference to either
1. Agreeing to the alliance of GRIA and just attacking Austria out of the
box.
2. Playing along, killing the Turk and then Killing the Austrian.
And your preference to the first option. It is a non-starter for me,
unless we can get complete cooperation from the Turk.
For me to attack Austria, I basically have to go to Tyrolia, which is
spelled out as declaration of war on Germany and you, not that it would
hold much weight with you. Unless we can get the Turk to support APU - GRE
from BUL in F01' its a non-starter.
How do you suggest we get around the Austrian paranoia, The Turk says he
is on board to take down Austria, but who knows what that means, and I
would rather see him dead first in many ways. But if we need to take down
the Austrian first...Im all ears....
talk to me.
Andy
Message from Italy to Italy
Oh, I wouldnt at all be surpised at this point to see an Austrian unit in
TYR and TRI and a French Army in PIE
Message from Austria to Turkey
> If you're ok giving me Sev and Gre, I'm more than happy to work with you
> on Rum and beyond. I'll certainly make sure to put my builds to good use.
Then we go anti-russian right away. You open to arm and position
yourselves for getting Sev next year and we work on Rumania this
year. Next year, Greece and Sev are taken by you, balancing the
fact I may get one more sc then you in 1901, and the years after
you support me in Moscow, balancing things out yet again.
Is that the way you were seeing it or do you have a better plan?
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
> Message from benjamin.harris@m... as England to England in 'c2':
> In my wildest dreams Tony will agree to this opening.
I can't see that happening, myself. Articles on openings
rarely discuss what happens beyond 1902 or '03, and
in a shotgun WT, what happens is, England takes StP,
and then stabs Germany.
> It seems to me to have no incentive for England
> to stick with it. Low long term payoff and a stab
> target in F'01.
Exactly. If you're facing a Juggernaut under full-steam,
then forming a WT in defense makes sense, but if it's
proposed before S1901M, it's almost certainly a cover
for a stab. So, if all you're hearing is WT talk, you're
probably the one getting set up.
Eric.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Curious
> > to know what you hear from Austria, who still hasn't written me.
>
> Have you written him, he says he hasnt heard from you.
I had already written him, of course. We've now exchanged pleasantries.
> I'm
> > guessing he's the source of the original grey broadcast. I saw he's
had one
> > solo & it was with Austria; it may have been a newbie game.
>
> I will have my hands full with him in at least the short term.
Anything I can do let me know - dropping seeds, whatever.
> > I'm getting a sense Eric will open south - what else would he tell me -
but
> > I imagine he'd make a good partner for you.
>
> Eric and I have never shared a game together, but we are familiar with
> each other.
Good luck, etc.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> I think the AIR thing is just talk on France's part. Russia and I are
> bouncing in BLA, and Austria is doing everything he can to get me to
> attack Russia with him.
I wouldn't doubt the sincerity of his intentions, based on things I've
recently heard elsewhere. He may want agreement from you before he
commits. May not be such a bad thing - A/T alliances are pretty favorable
to the Sultan normally.
> Italy seems to be complaining that I'm quiet, but I haven't heard from
> him in days. Not sure what he's up to. Hopefully nothing with Russia. :-)
Heh.
> Hang tight over there. I'll let you know if FG says anything of interest.
Thanks. I'm particularly curious about Germany.
Good luck, & let me know if there's something you'd like me to mention to
one of your neighbors.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> >
> > I will have my hands full with him in at least the short term.
> Anything I can do let me know - dropping seeds, whatever.
thank you.
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> May you keep things interesting in the north while
> I try to survive!
Thanks. I've always had trouble playing Austria. I hope I'll learn
something from you.
> If you hear anything of interest,
> please let me know and I will do the same.
I certainly will. What do you hear from Germany?
Good luck.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> Thanks. I've always had trouble playing Austria. I hope I'll learn
> something from you.
Austria isn't my cup of tea either, so don't hesitate
to make suggestions.
> I certainly will. What do you hear from Germany?
Not much for the moment, but he did say he was in
good term with you. Is this how you would
characterize your relationsip?
Philippe
Message from England to England
From Turkey:
> Russia and I are bouncing in BLA, and Austria is doing everything
> he can to get me to attack Russia with him.
The bounce in BLA is important to me because it means there will be no MOS
- SEV. Therefore Russia should be in a position to defend WAR in F'01,
should we go forward with this Triple.
I am guessing that (a) Andy's frustration with Philippe and (b) Philippe's
solicitation of Jason are both the product of an early effort by Tony to
get Philippe to go straight for Russia. This would keep Philippe from
going along with likely Italian overtures against Turkey and coincide with
the German interest in a Western Triple.
An A/T would dovetail nicely with my hope for an EF stab of Germany in '01,
as it would mean I will eventually be able to roll into STP.
Erik's silence is making me alittle nervous but it is the weekend & perhaps
he has more time to play during the week. . . This whole Western Triple
thing could be smoke & mirrors to keep me out of the Channel, after all. .
. Meanwhile company left & I have a few minutes to handle this
correspondence.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> Austria isn't my cup of tea either, so don't hesitate
> to make suggestions.
Diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy. Look at your Turk, your German, your
Russian, your Italian. Work against the one who you trust the least & pray
the others do not jump on you. I tell you this because I read it. So far,
as Austria, nothing works for me. :-)
> > I certainly will. What do you hear from Germany?
>
> Not much for the moment, but he did say he was in
> good term with you. Is this how you would
> characterize your relationsip?
Yes I agree. I'm pleased to hear he said it - hopefully it means he won't
be jumping on me right out of the gate. He seems pretty experienced & has
offered some good advice.
In your theater, I believe there will be a bounce in the Black Sea.
Good luck!
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> Diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy. Look at your Turk, your German, your
> Russian, your Italian. Work against the one who you trust the least & pray
> the others do not jump on you. I tell you this because I read it. So far,
> as Austria, nothing works for me. :-)
Thanks, let's hope things go well for me in this game.
> Yes I agree. I'm pleased to hear he said it - hopefully it means he won't
> be jumping on me right out of the gate. He seems pretty experienced & has
> offered some good advice.
>
> In your theater, I believe there will be a bounce in the Black Sea.
What do you make of that bounce in the Black Sea?
If an RT alliance is in the making, I would like to know
about it as soon as possible, not that expect them to let
you in on it as it would also hurt you; but if you are
getting bad vibes about it, then don't hesitate to share.
I might not do anything about it right away, but it can
help put things in perspective. Also, since it's going well
between you and Germany, can I expect you to take
care of Russia in the north if needs be?
Philippe
Message from Turkey to Austria
Hmmm, interesting plan.
I had though more of opening to Bul, Bla and Con, and in the fall,
supporting you into Rum while going for Bla. Either you get Rum or I get
Bla, and my builds let me go after Russia. Opening to Arm seems very
obvious. We might not want to let Russia know what's on immediately.
jason
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> > In your theater, I believe there will be a bounce in the Black Sea.
>
> What do you make of that bounce in the Black Sea?
> If an RT alliance is in the making, I would like to know
> about it as soon as possible, not that expect them to let
> you in on it as it would also hurt you; but if you are
> getting bad vibes about it, then don't hesitate to share.
I don't have any particularly strong feelings about alliance structure in
the East, except for this: I /do not want/ an RT. You and I would be the
first victims - you are their target in common, and the RT calls for Russia
to become an Atlantic power - very bad news for me.
I do not think - yet - that Turkey has decided what he wants. He did
mention you were asking for cooperation against Russia & I encouraged him to
work with you. But I do not know what he will do. At this stage I think
(hope) that the bounce in Black Sea is just them trying to keep their
options open & protect themselves.
> I might not do anything about it right away, but it can
> help put things in perspective. Also, since it's going well
> between you and Germany, can I expect you to take
> care of Russia in the north if needs be?
Oh yes.
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Gentlemen -
I have put my moves in with wait set, for the Western Triple opening we
discussed.
Are we all in?
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I can tell you that Italy's repeated
> warnings about Tony sound a tad fishy,
> though as we've both said, he's
> probably just stirring up trouble.
I do not know whether Tony is indeed one of the best in the world or whether
Andy's expression that he is was sincere. But it is clear from my & our
correspondence with him that he is a big time player. And I would not be
surprised later to learn that Andy was sincere in his description, as for
his purposes there would have been little difference between "one of the
best in the world" and "one of the best I've played" or even "a total
cutthroat lying cretin." I do not think he lightly chose the words, one of
the best in the world. I think he meant it. Though he was probably
referring to ftf.
Ben
Message from Austria to Turkey
> I had though more of opening to Bul, Bla and Con, and in the fall,
> supporting you into Rum while going for Bla. Either you get Rum or I get
> Bla, and my builds let me go after Russia. Opening to Arm seems very
> obvious. We might not want to let Russia know what's on immediately.
I don't think there's any element of surprise to lose here. With
or without a move to Arm, Russia usually support himself to
Rumania and cooperation is needed to blocked it.
Also, if you only go with the moves to Bul & Con, it will be
hard for me to risk attacking Russia when you can simply
ditch me and go for Gre & Bul. Remember, I'm not the one
with the strong defensive position here.
Getting back to tactics, there's also good reasons for going to
Arm instead of Con. Once Russia see the attack, the move to
Arm won't be a sure thing anymore and will probably need to
be supported to succeed, delaying your expansion. Also, your
presence in Arm this spring will complicate Russia's defence,
wich make sure of the Black Sea and give us a very good
chance of getting Rumania (compare to only hoping for one or
the other). Lastly, there's not much use for the move to Con,
except to give you the option of ditching me. I don't see how
an army in Greece can be of assistance in your invasion the
Med. and a fleet in Sev sure won't be able to support my
progress in Russia.
Philippe
Message from Austria to England
Thanks Ben,
It's good to know I can count on you.
Philippe
Message from Germany to England and France
Count me in, I like the look of it. I like unusual openings. Its the only
decent proposal so far.
I run the most risk as I have to full frontal on Russia.
It will be interesting to see their faces in the fall. But I will want to
see frances approval
Message from England to Austria
> It's good to know I can count on you.
You bet. Try to figure out Austria for the both of us & grow. I'm looking
forward to working with you.
Ben
Message from England to England
Curious that Philippe does not acknowledge his solo with Austria. Something to bear in mind.
Ben
Message from Observer to Observer
I have to agree. So who thinks that EFG will all order the triple
moves in Spring?
--- In c2b@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Hunter" <Dip_Power@c...> wrote:
> > Message from benjamin.harris@m... as England to England in 'c2':
>
> > In my wildest dreams Tony will agree to this opening.
>
> I can't see that happening, myself. Articles on openings
> rarely discuss what happens beyond 1902 or '03, and
> in a shotgun WT, what happens is, England takes StP,
> and then stabs Germany.
>
> > It seems to me to have no incentive for England
> > to stick with it. Low long term payoff and a stab
> > target in F'01.
>
> Exactly. If you're facing a Juggernaut under full-steam,
> then forming a WT in defense makes sense, but if it's
> proposed before S1901M, it's almost certainly a cover
> for a stab. So, if all you're hearing is WT talk, you're
> probably the one getting set up.
>
> Eric.
Message from Turkey to Austria
Very well then, A Smy - Arm is ordered.
jason
Message from Turkey to Turkey
Well, now that my moves are finalized, I guess a little commentary is in
order.
Austria is really annoying me, but frankly AT is way better for me than
RT. If I can pull off IT, then I can take out Russia, then take out
Austria, and end up with 10 SCs and the entire east wall to play with.
I'd really prefer to keep my options open for a season or two, instead
of going after Russia immediately, but I can't afford to alienate
Austria, and I'm not interested in running RT much, anyway. I'm fairly
confident this will all work out in the end.
jason
Message from Observer to Observer
--- In c2b@yahoogroups.com, "fonnny" <dan@i...> wrote:
> I have to agree. So who thinks that EFG will all order the triple
> moves in Spring?
I think they all will. It's true that Germany is usually least
favoured by a triple, but he could use that as a valid argument
against it without antagonizing E/F. England's moves are fairly
standard and non-committal anyway, he doesn't have anything to lose
by tagging along. If there has to be one to break his agreement, is
has to be France (even though I don't think he would). He can walk
into Munich anyway, and moving A Mar-Spa or S A Par-Bur only makes
sure Mun will be covered. The big stabs, if any, will probably come
in the fall, but let's see how Andy reacts to Mar-Pie first.
-Thomas
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Very well then, A Smy - Arm is ordered.
OK. If there's anything else you wish to discuss, let me know.
Philippe.
P.-S. Heard anything interesting regarding the rest of the board?
Message from Observer to Observer
Alastair wrote:
><snip>
>
> > But the biggest problem I see now is Turkey's lack of communication.
> > I suppose it could just be that he can't email from work, and his
> > press volume will pick up as the US heads into evening, though.
>
>This seems to be roughly the case, although he is still probably the
>quietest of the seven in terms of volume.
>
>In a wider sense, how potentially significant is an early lack of
>communication such as the one Turkey seemed to have initially?
>
>As Mike says, it could just be that he can't email from work - but even so,
>that seems already to have put him at a disadvantage. Speaking as someone
>else who has been left at the starter gate in a game due to a combination of
>time zones and inability to correspond during working hours, I'm always at a
>bit of a loss as to how I can overcome this. Obviously it places a higher
>emphasis onto volume and quality of press when time does become available.
>
>It is also a potential issue further into the game - many of these guys do
>seem to have access/ability to send press through most of the waking hours,
>which makes it far easier to design plans, reach agreements, employ
>deceptions etc than someone who gets to send press maybe first thing in the
>morning and then a couple of times in the evening.
>
>It strikes me that this issue shouldn't be an insurmountable issue for a
>good player, but in many cases I could imagine that it could make the
>difference between a good start and an average one.
>
>Alastair
As long as you explain to the others why you do not communicate at certain
times it should not be a big problem. There is only a problem when others
start to think you do not communicate because you are plotting against
them. This might have been the reason for Tony to broadcast his timezone
several times, or for England to explain about his out of town visitors.
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
> Message from pbergeron@gmx.net as Austria to Turkey in 'c2':
>
>
> Also, if you only go with the moves to Bul & Con, it will be
> hard for me to risk attacking Russia when you can simply
> ditch me and go for Gre & Bul. Remember, I'm not the one
> with the strong defensive position here.
>
> Getting back to tactics, there's also good reasons for going to
> Arm instead of Con. Once Russia see the attack, the move to
> Arm won't be a sure thing anymore and will probably need to
> be supported to succeed, delaying your expansion. Also, your
> presence in Arm this spring will complicate Russia's defence,
> wich make sure of the Black Sea and give us a very good
> chance of getting Rumania (compare to only hoping for one or
> the other). Lastly, there's not much use for the move to Con,
> except to give you the option of ditching me. I don't see how
> an army in Greece can be of assistance in your invasion the
> Med. and a fleet in Sev sure won't be able to support my
> progress in Russia.
I think this press was excellent. Austria and Turkey had been talking
about working together. Now, with this press, Austria gets Turkey to
commit to an attack on Russia. Without this press, Turkey would just
move in a manner that would leave an attack on Austria as an option.
Now, Austria gets Turkey to make moves that are in accord with an AT
alliance and he does it without having to make any sort of ultimatum.
With his proposed move of f tri -> ven, he cuts off the threat of an
immediate attack by Italy. With Turkey attacking Russia, that may very
well cut off the threat from that side.
We're seeing some good early play by Austria.
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
fonnny wrote:
> I have to agree. So who thinks that EFG will all order the triple
> moves in Spring?
I think they will and I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
Greg
Message from Turkey to Austria
I've heard from everyone else a little bit, but nothing too surprising.
EFG seem somewhat divided, so I'm not sure who's going after whom. Italy
has talked some, but nothing in-depth. Russia, of course, has been
asking me to work with him.
So, you do seem secure for the first few turns, at least.
jason
Message from Austria to Turkey
> I've heard from everyone else a little bit, but nothing too surprising.
> EFG seem somewhat divided, so I'm not sure who's going after whom. Italy
> has talked some, but nothing in-depth. Russia, of course, has been
> asking me to work with him.
>
> So, you do seem secure for the first few turns, at least.
Glad to hear it :-) England did say he might be able to go
after Russia; but I suppose it all depend on what happen
west.
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
I hate Western Triples. I was at a Con in Germany this weekend and faced
two WT's in three games. Both times Germany was stabbed. In the first game
because the East allied quickly and stalemated the WT. In the second game a
short-sighted Austria allied with Turkey against Russia and stabbed Italy
as well. England and France EFT'ed against Austria and had plenty of spare
units to whipe Germany.
This is what happens 9 out of 10 times I have seen the WT played through:
Germany gets stabbed sooner or later. This leads me to the conclusion that
WT is only played through when there is either a newbie or a stupid player
in Germany.
Nonetheless Germany should always agree to a WT proposal. It will cause ER
conflict, IF conflict and plenty of opportunities to take advantadge. As
soon as France is commited in the Med Germany should stab the hell out of
him. This is why France should never agree to WT when there is a good
player in Germany.
As for the Szykman variant: Germany makes an enemy in Russia while at the
same time helping E and F to work together. Not so smart. If F suggests it
however it is an excellent opportunity for an effective S01 stab. I hope to
see Mun-Bur.
As far as I can see WT is only good for England. Maybe I'm mistaken,
though. I have yet to play a good game as Germany.
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
Oscar Dijkhoff <dip@oehoeboeroe.nl> wrote:
>I hate Western Triples. I was at a Con in Germany this weekend and faced
>two WT's in three games. Both times Germany was stabbed. In the first game
>because the East allied quickly and stalemated the WT. In the second game a
>short-sighted Austria allied with Turkey against Russia and stabbed Italy
>as well. England and France EFT'ed against Austria and had plenty of spare
>units to whipe Germany.
>
>This is what happens 9 out of 10 times I have seen the WT played through:
>Germany gets stabbed sooner or later. This leads me to the conclusion that
>WT is only played through when there is either a newbie or a stupid player
>in Germany.
WT is one of those alliances where you have to lay down strict
guidelines to prevent stabs. England cannot build fleets, France must
build in Marseilles whenever possible, etc. Most important in a WT is
Germany making sure that s/he has the most centres, always. Germany
has the most exposed front, and therefore has to have more pieces.
One thing I like about this Szykman variant is the pieces left at the
rear, though Germany really needs to leave an army floating in the
rear as well as the fleet, long term.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
Message from England to all
Greetings one and all. Company's gone & the house is quiet, but tomorrow
will probably be pretty busy, so forgive me if response time lags.
Ben
Message from Russia to Germany
>Didnt you receive my very very long press? I have a few details I wish to
>pass on but I am still awaiting a reply from you.
Sorry, I have three messages from you. I started a response at work Friday,
but apparently I never finished and sent it. It was a very busy day at
work, and I was sending out messages for two games between meetings. I
thought I had sent something to you, but apparently didn't really.
Yesterday (and most of today) I was out of town and out of Internet reach.
So I have indeed been ignoring you, but not intentionally. As I said, I
thought I had sent press to you -- must have been that I sent press to
Germany in a different game. (Hopefully I didn't talk about our plans with
him though!)
I will admit that I was a little annoyed when you sent the RIA combined
press, because I am still talking with Austria about whether we want a DMZ
in Gal or a bounce. I didn't appreciate having my ability to negotiate such
an arrangement superceded by your broadcast. That said, when I went back
over my last press to you, I can see why you could have misinterpreted my
message that said "I might agree to the DMZ" to mean that I wanted you to
press the issue.
>We did speak of Sweden. I would have no reason to prevent your build unless
>you were hostile towards me in the spring. Something I know wont happen. So
>yes, sweden is yours. I recall stating that I even want Sweden to carry on
>to Norway. Lets take it one step at the time.
I'm very happy to cooperate with Sweden. As I said earlier, though, I'm
more likely to build north than to move north. So far, I agree that England
is playing wait and see. France and I are talking some, but nothing very
specific. What I've heard indicates that IA don't like each other. I assume
your broadcast was intended to help contain that situation. While in
concept I don't mind the idea of your four-way GRAI arrangement to allow us
to get the step on Turkey, I will admit that I'm concerned about putting
myself into a position where other people get to control who I get to work
with. Meaning, that if Austria attacks Italy I'd be duty-bound to attack
him, and vice-versa. That might be a problem if I'm in the middle of
something with Turkey.
>Lets keep talking. Nothing new yet from England or France or Turkey, or
>Italy or Austria.
Sounds good. Again, my apologies for the long silence. I thought I had been
sharing information, but my message to you got lost.
I'll get back to you on what develops between Austria and me. As I said, so
far we've agreed that we'll probably DMZ Gal, but we were still debating
bouncing there instead. If we bounce because we mutually agree to, I don't
want that to cause you to keep Sweden out of my hands!
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
>Of course, you may be interested in an anti-German or anti-English
>opening off the bat, and that could change my plans completely. Please let
>me know, if possible, if you're headed in that direction.
Okay, at this point I'm still looking at an innocuous opening, but I would
probably be happier with an anti-G move from you if I get a vote. I don't
really care from a board setup point of view, but I think Germany is much
more dangerous of a player and has more of an alliance structure setup with
IA, so would be more difficult to take out later.
But since I'm not planning to be obvious about helping you right away
(War-Sil is a pretty insane opening move in my mind!) that's not by any
means an ultimatum.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
Sorry, out of town for a day, and expected a chance to send email before I
left that didn't come. (Went to see a James Taylor concert among other
things). Today I had to wait until I could get over the Raiders' and
Giants' dismal performances before I had a positive enough attitude to send
press. :(
So far Turkey is taking a "wait and see" kind of approach with me, though
he seems willing to consider cooperation. I get the same sense you do, it's
not clear what his flexibility means. I have no idea whether or not Turkey
will want to support you to Gre, me to Rum, or work with Austria to keep
either from happening. For now we'll bounce in Bla and then I'll see if I
get Rum!
I completely get that you can't attack Austria if he's hedgehogging. I'm
still negotiating with him about whether we (A/R) should bounce instead of
DMZ. (I'm concerned that his hedgehog will include violating the Gal DMZ if
I leave it alone). If we bounce, it could work well to get him bouncing all
around in spring, while you hit Gre in Fall. That would allow me to "work
with" A/G according to the German agreement then really put a hit on
Austria. That's what I meant about there being an upside to you attacking
Austria if A/G think it means I'll cooperate with them.
The huge downside from your point of view is of course that it gives me all
the initiative. I could leave you hanging by not attacking, or I could take
a majority of the spoils if you're being attacked and I get the open front.
So I'm not really expecting it to happen in '01. But in Fall (Gre) Or next
season it could happen. However, I trust that you see that the *only*
reason I have to (say that I) agree to the German proposal is to avoid
creating an angry GA v R alliance. I have absolutely zero interest in an
agreement that seeks to build a strong GA, and even less to build a strong
GAI block, as either would basically guarantee someone comes to attack me.
This is all a really long way of saying that I'm looking for how to hit A,
whether now or later, given Germany's strong commitment to him. I've got
more flexibility to attack Austria than you, but I also have both of them
on my borders. So it's hard to assess who takes the greater risk in taking
a clear move against him.m
Any thoughts on EF vs. G? Germany's pushing the alliance structure in the
north the same way he is in the south. If EF can be created and hold
together, that will give me the flexibility to do whatever we need down here.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Sultan Jason,
>Germany actually said that he wants RT!
He does? It would be good if he told me that! That's (RT) my inclination
too, but he's been pressing me pretty hard NOT to attack Austria.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to England
>I am all in favor of reasonable garrisons to protect our peaceful border.
>But the large deployment necessary to have the "minimum units" for the
>protection of Northern Russia may not be an efficient use of your units.
>Do the research, I encourage you, but you are talking about more units then
>dots. You would find you had no units to maintain the hotter fronts in
>your south. We will cross this bridge when we come to it, though.
Right. And I don't mean a huge deployment. I just wanted to point out that
to truly take out Germany, we'll need some fleets in the Bal/GoB area. I
would prefer them to be mine (as opposed to having you sail fleets there)
so would expect that I would build northern fleets as necessary to do so.
>I'm alittle reluctant to start
>assigning some dots to you, some to me, etc., as we do not know what
>outside forces will be exerted against us or our mutual target(s).
Agreed. The purpose of the comments wasn't to chisel in stone who gets what
dots, but to ferret out what might be big issues in terms of cooperation. I
don't want it to be a problem when I do come tell you I want to build a
fleet that you thought you'd have all the northern fleets. Exactly when a
fleet gets raised and where its force is aimed is something that will be
dictated by the situation.
I'm getting a lot of pressure to make a northern opening. I'm assuming
that's something you would prefer not to see. The only upside it has is
that it would certainly surprise Germany if I moved to Bal and advanced the
army to Swe! Let me know if you want to consider this maneuver. I think it
would be interesting, though risky for both of us -- it would make you
nervous about Nwy, and it would make me nervous about Germany (I'm not sure
I can trust him not to jump on me if I go north as he suggests).
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Austria
>Also, while I much prefer to
>see you go for Sev-Bla & Mos-Sev if you can get away
>with it
Sev-Bla for sure. But it's virtually guaranteed to bounce, so I haven't
decided about Mos yet.
>in the long run, I do expect you
>to actively cooperate with me in the south and not simply
>use me to contain Turkey ;-) Not that I believe this would
>actually happen, but better safe then sorry.
No worries there, I'm much more worried about having you around to contain
Andy. :)
Seriously, I can understand that this could be a worry of yours. I'm much
more interested in seeing us both get established in the south and moving
*away* from each other than sitting around embroiled in the south while
Andy and Tony stabilize the west and come after us.
>>Do you think we need a four way agreement to be able to cooperate?
>
>No I don't; but since it's there I will take it.
>[...]
>It's Germany's idea and I will go along with it. If GIA allow
>me to work with you without having to worry about my
>back, I'm not about to complain; but I'm not about to limit
>RA's collaboration to what GIAR think is appropriate.
Gotcha. The thing that was confusing to me is that both you and I agreed in
our last exchange that we would revisit later whether we both wanted a DMZ
or a bounce. Having the decision "made" by a third party was surprising to
me, and I wondered if it was a sign that you have some serious reservation
about me that made you go to him to negotiate instead of coming to me.
To be clear, I don't have a problem with the GRIA "pact", I was just
worried that it indicated that you were uncomfortable negotiating with me.
Shall I take this as a sign that you really want the DMZ and not the bounce?
>Since we are talking of Germany, what do you think of
>France and England? Tony is obviously an expert diplomat
>and I was wondering about Ben and Erik. Will they be up
>to the task or should I be warry of having to deal with a
>strong Germany at my back soon?
I can't tell. I think both England and France are being flexible. My
concern is that, yes, Germany may be able to take advantage of their casual
attitudes. Though frankly I'm more worried about having a strong Germany at
*my* back than I am about having him at *your* back. For you, I'd be more
worried about Andy, but I think Andy and Tony have the ability to
coordinate such things, and as such would see either of them doing well as
a concern for both of us.
--- Tzarface
Message from Turkey to Russia
Well, it's Germany's job to tell you not to attack Austria. As Austria
goes, so goes Germany.
jason
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Right. And I don't mean a huge deployment. I just wanted to point out that
> to truly take out Germany, we'll need some fleets in the Bal/GoB area. I
> would prefer them to be mine (as opposed to having you sail fleets there)
> so would expect that I would build northern fleets as necessary to do so.
Things to discuss as we go - I will not argue about bridges we may never
reach. For heaven's sake, if you are blitzed by AT, I imagine it will be
quite some time before you & I need to discuss your desire to construct a
unt in STP, & if I am blitzed by FG, then I imagine a F STP/sc would not be
such an unwelcome sight. Really I hope enough said on this subject, for
now.
> >I'm alittle reluctant to start
> >assigning some dots to you, some to me, etc., as we do not know what
> >outside forces will be exerted against us or our mutual target(s).
>
> Agreed. The purpose of the comments wasn't to chisel in stone who gets
what
> dots, but to ferret out what might be big issues in terms of cooperation.
I
> don't want it to be a problem when I do come tell you I want to build a
> fleet that you thought you'd have all the northern fleets. Exactly when a
> fleet gets raised and where its force is aimed is something that will be
> dictated by the situation.
Yes.
> I'm getting a lot of pressure to make a northern opening. I'm assuming
> that's something you would prefer not to see. The only upside it has is
> that it would certainly surprise Germany if I moved to Bal and advanced
the
> army to Swe! Let me know if you want to consider this maneuver. I think it
> would be interesting, though risky for both of us -- it would make you
> nervous about Nwy, and it would make me nervous about Germany (I'm not
sure
> I can trust him not to jump on me if I go north as he suggests).
From whom are you getting pressure? The convoy to SWE is a nice maneuver
though I had thought it was principally anti-English, rather than anything
else, & if you wanted to harass Germany with a F BOT, A LVN, it might make
more sense to order to SWE & PRU. Whether you go to LVN is a separate
question, as you no doubt recall in C1 Eric Hunter opened WAR - LVN. As I
recall his reasoning was, he didn't know who he could trust & didn't want
to offend anyone. So go ahead, if you have for instance dmz'ed GAL, BOH,
etc., go to LVN. Going to STP is of course good only for annoying the
English, and will not help you should WAR be threatened.
Which is not out of the realm of possibilities, rather I expect you to be
attacked in the south & will be surprised if you are not. After all
Austria's one solo, in his six games, came as an Austria starting off by
attacking Russia. Bobbie on USGG. Still if you want to give Austria the
benefit of the doubt, go to LVN, so you can take RUM from UKR and SEV and
cover WAR from LVN.
Ben
p.s. For your edification I attach a press you sent me a few days ago.
Make of it what you will:
> Well Germany and Austria got back to me, and I must admit that the timing
> and content of their messages makes me suspicious. I'll let you imagine
the
> tactical details of why I say this, but overall their combined proposed
> moves would leave me in a really bad position should they cooperate to
take
> advantage of it.
>
> Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.
>
> More later.
Message from Austria to Russia
> Gotcha. The thing that was confusing to me is that both you and I agreed in
> our last exchange that we would revisit later whether we both wanted a DMZ
> or a bounce. Having the decision "made" by a third party was surprising to
> me, and I wondered if it was a sign that you have some serious reservation
> about me that made you go to him to negotiate instead of coming to me.
>
> To be clear, I don't have a problem with the GRIA "pact", I was just
> worried that it indicated that you were uncomfortable negotiating with me.
>
> Shall I take this as a sign that you really want the DMZ and not the bounce?
I should probably have been more clear. I'm still waiting for you
to get back to me about Galicia. I really don't see a problem
with an organize bounce over a dmz and I don't think Germany's
statement was against it either.
So please don't let someone else interfere with our relationship,
Philippe
Message from France to England
Ben:
> I do not know whether Tony is indeed one of the best in the
> world or whether Andy's expression that he is was sincere.
> But it is clear from my & our correspondence with him that he
> is a big time player.
I've heard rumblings from another source that there's some sort of GAI
agreement in the works, or at least that there's been a lot of talk of
it. This is consistent with the picture I'm getting from Austria and
Italy, though not Germany. Tony may be playing both sides, hoping that
Italy runs head first into me while you help him with Russia.
I think that as interesting as this triple might be, we may not be able
to trust Tony enought to pull it off. Are you getting the same sense?
In any case, I suppose the first two turns will probably work, and Tony,
even if he's working with AI, will probably play ball for a little
while. It's in his interest to keep us off his back while he dispatches
Russia. Still, we should plan now to lower the boom within a few
seasons.
Let me look at the map and the proposal that I sent out and get back to
you with specifics. Just wanted to get this message out before it got
too late.
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
>
> Count me in, I like the look of it. I like unusual openings.
> Its the only decent proposal so far. I run the most risk as I
> have to full frontal on Russia. It will be interesting to see
> their faces in the fall. But I will want to see frances approval
Of course you have my approval -- I suggested it. I'm glad to know that
we all find this interesting and worthwhile. I think we could make some
lightning gains from it.
Okay, given that we're all on board, I think we need to review our
information about other powers to maximize our chances of success. I can
tell what little I know: Austria and Italy seem to be friendly, Italy is
wary of Germany, Turkey is probably the odd man out in the east but
doesn't realize it.
Can you guys share anything you've learned? Tony, what's your
relationship with Austria like? Any indication where he's opening?
Erik
Message from France to Italy
Andy:
Haven't heard from you in a while (which, frankly, makes me a little
nervous). The situation in the west is resolving a little bit; everyone
is being very amicable, and we may have worked out a plan for Belgium,
but I could be facing an EG for all I know. I'll just have to play
conservatively and hope that they haven't been speaking too much behind
my back.
Given my nerves over EG, I'd like to hope that my southern front is
reasonably secure; can we at least agree to a DMZ in Pie, Lyo, Wes and
Tys? I certainly don't plan on leaving any major holes down south this
time, but if we can agree to that plan and stick to it for a couple of
seasons, I'll feel a lot better about the south and be better equiped to
deal with Tony.
How are your discussions on the east?
Erik
Message from France to Russia
>
> Okay, at this point I'm still looking at an innocuous
> opening, but I would probably be happier with an anti-G move
> from you if I get a vote. I don't really care from a board
> setup point of view, but I think Germany is much more
> dangerous of a player and has more of an alliance structure
> setup with IA, so would be more difficult to take out later.
As it stands, I'm leaning toward cementing an immediate EF, especially
if GAI is in place. Do you know the extent of their relationship? Is the
central alliance definite at this point? AI are being very cagey, so I
certainly wouldn't find that hard to believe.
I will do what I can to figure out Germany's opening. If he's cozy with
AI and thinks that he doesn't have any trouble coming from me (he's
suggested working against England, of course, but is probably just happy
leaving me to swing in the breeze), you could be in trouble. I'll keep
an eye out for a sign of attack against you.
Do you have any idea what's happening between AIT?
Erik
Message from Russia to England
Germany was pushing for a northern opening. You needn't worry about an army
in StP in Fall, that just won't be happening. At the same time, I won't
open to Pru in Spring, but I don't expect that's what you meant.
Sorry, the last message was a bit rambly. I need to learn never to write
right after a bad football game by the Raiders. :) My thinking is never
straight under those circumstances.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Austria
>I should probably have been more clear. I'm still waiting for you
>to get back to me about Galicia. I really don't see a problem
>with an organize bounce over a dmz and I don't think Germany's
>statement was against it either.
Gotcha. I'm fine with a DMZ there. And since it does allow us to establish
some trust that's a bonus as well.
>So please don't let someone else interfere with our relationship,
Thanks, I appreciate the clarification(s).
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
>if GAI is in place. Do you know the extent of their relationship? Is the
>central alliance definite at this point? AI are being very cagey, so I
>certainly wouldn't find that hard to believe.
I'm convinced that there has been shared GAI press. But obviously if
there's a central alliance, I wouldn't know about it!
>I will do what I can to figure out Germany's opening. If he's cozy with
>AI and thinks that he doesn't have any trouble coming from me (he's
>suggested working against England, of course, but is probably just happy
>leaving me to swing in the breeze), you could be in trouble. I'll keep
>an eye out for a sign of attack against you.
This is my biggest concern at the moment. It's the kind of gamble I've had
particularly bad luck with recently (betting when someone is coming after
me vs. when they are going to work with me). So I have a bad feeling I'm
going to see my first Mun-Sil, Ber-Pru, Vie-Gal, Smy-Arm opening.
>Do you have any idea what's happening between AIT?
Turkey tells me he's taking a wait-and-see approach, which basically means
nothing to me except that he's not ready to agree to an alliance with me.
I know that's not really much information, but for now that's the best I've
got.
--- Tzarface
Message from Germany to England and France
My picture is the same. AI friendly and Turkey the odd man out. Although I must admit I know very little about Russia.
Message from Germany to Russia
No you two bouncing wouldnt be a problem. They do seem to be having their difficulties as Austria insists on opening tri - ven. But at least he is open about it.
Message from Austria to Germany
Hi Tony,
Unless you heard something else from Andy, I think that while
tense because of my insistence on Tri-Ven, GIA is going to
work out. As for Russia, he seem to be going along with it, but
I will be more confortable once you confirm Kie-Den to me.
On your side, how are things going?
Philippe
Message from England to England
> I need to learn never to write
> right after a bad football game by the Raiders. :)
Good lord a member of the Raider Nation. I wonder if he has a job.
Ladies & gentlemen, do not concede you are a Raiders fan in civilized
company. Now what am I supposed to say to him. Ordinarily I'd talk
football but with zealots that's asking for trouble. . .
;o)
Ben
Message from Italy to France
>
> Haven't heard from you in a while (which, frankly, makes me a little
> nervous). The situation in the west is resolving a little bit; everyone
> is being very amicable, and we may have worked out a plan for Belgium,
Which is?
> but I could be facing an EG for all I know. I'll just have to play
> conservatively and hope that they haven't been speaking too much behind
> my back.
You and Ben should be talking alot. You need to get on the same page.
> Given my nerves over EG, I'd like to hope that my southern front is
> reasonably secure; can we at least agree to a DMZ in Pie, Lyo, Wes and
> Tys?
I will agree to everything but TYS.....it borders two of my home centers
and none of yours....sorry.
I certainly don't plan on leaving any major holes down south this
> time, but if we can agree to that plan and stick to it for a couple of
> seasons, I'll feel a lot better about the south and be better equiped to
> deal with Tony.
I have no intention of attacking you.
> How are your discussions on the east?
a pain in the ass.
The austrian player makes the Turk from the 1st game possatively trusting.
Andy
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I've heard rumblings from another source that there's some sort of GAI
> agreement in the works, or at least that there's been a lot of talk of
> it. This is consistent with the picture I'm getting from Austria and
> Italy, though not Germany. Tony may be playing both sides, hoping that
> Italy runs head first into me while you help him with Russia.
Hopefully the AI will be turning east toward Turkey. Keep in mind Tony is
as nervous about Andy as Andy is about Tony, so I do not think Tony would
warn Andy that you will be coming. At least I hope so.
> I think that as interesting as this triple might be, we may not be able
> to trust Tony enought to pull it off. Are you getting the same sense?
Absolutely. I sent you a press a few days ago on this point, including a
way to turn the Western Triple to our advantage in F'01. I attached that
press at the bottom of this one.
> In any case, I suppose the first two turns will probably work, and Tony,
> even if he's working with AI, will probably play ball for a little
> while. It's in his interest to keep us off his back while he dispatches
> Russia. Still, we should plan now to lower the boom within a few
> seasons.
I think we should lower the boom in F'01. After F'01 it becomes much more
tricky.
> Let me look at the map and the proposal that I sent out and get back to
> you with specifics. Just wanted to get this message out before it got
> too late.
We have time, though as promised I am busy today.
Ben
attachment:
Erik -
> On hindsight, I should have gone over that proposal with you first, but
> what's done is done. I didn't think he'd ultimately go for the Par - Bur
> opening, and his response confirms it.
That's ok. Next time we can discuss it together but really I think this
suggestion was outstanding. See below.
> In any case, a WT, even if we let it go longer than a couple of seasons,
> still leaves us at an advantage. It's hard for Germany to build fleets and
> justify them in this situation, and that's good for us.
I suppose. My concern is that soon after S'02, I will have filled NWY,
SWE, and STP, and you will be trying to grind out dots against Andy, and
Tony will have his choice of either the southern Russian centers, or the
Austrian centers, to be followed soon enough by the other. I just think,
after this opening has gotten out of the gate, it favors Germany. So long
term I do not know how well this works for us, though if we decide to try
to make it work I will work harder at justifying it to myself. ;-) Also
you do not want to find yourself between Tony & the remnants of Andy. But
see below.
> Let me know what you think.
Two things. First of all Tony has not actually committed yet. He said he
wanted to see what I thought, & I said I was in, but he has not said he
would do it yet. Not that we should harp on it; I'm just pointing that out.
Second. Because of the drawbacks for us as we push into '02 and beyond,
let me point out an alternate set of orders for Fall '01:
England
EDI - NTH - HOL
NWG - NWY
France
GAS - BUR
PIE - TYR
MAO - SPA/sc
This would restrict you to one build but if successful would give you *two*
units against an undefended MUN in S '02, and Germany would only be getting
one build as well. We would crush him. By the end of '02 we should have
two to three builds each with open lanes to the east in front of us.
The key would be getting Andy not to freak out as you passed from PIE -
TYR. I think we could do it, diplomatically, & I would try to exert some
influence there too to help you out. Perhaps rather than involve him now,
just try to smooth things over in the fall after you've entered PIE in the
spring. I'll leave it to you - you know him better than I do.
Thoughts?
Ben
End of message.
Message from Italy to Russia
> Sorry, out of town for a day, and expected a chance to send email before I
> left that didn't come. (Went to see a James Taylor concert among other
> things). Today I had to wait until I could get over the Raiders' and
> Giants' dismal performances before I had a positive enough attitude to send
> press. :(
Well....James Taylor is capable of rattling anyone...:-)
> So far Turkey is taking a "wait and see" kind of approach with me, though
> he seems willing to consider cooperation. I get the same sense you do, it's
> not clear what his flexibility means. I have no idea whether or not Turkey
> will want to support you to Gre, me to Rum, or work with Austria to keep
> either from happening. For now we'll bounce in Bla and then I'll see if I
> get Rum!
Turkey seems gung-ho as hell to attack Austria, but that could just be a
ruse.
> I completely get that you can't attack Austria if he's hedgehogging. I'm
> still negotiating with him about whether we (A/R) should bounce instead of
> DMZ. (I'm concerned that his hedgehog will include violating the Gal DMZ if
> I leave it alone). If we bounce, it could work well to get him bouncing all
> around in spring, while you hit Gre in Fall. That would allow me to "work
> with" A/G according to the German agreement then really put a hit on
> Austria. That's what I meant about there being an upside to you attacking
> Austria if A/G think it means I'll cooperate with them.
Im not hitting Greece unless I know I can take it.
> The huge downside from your point of view is of course that it gives me all
> the initiative. I could leave you hanging by not attacking, or I could take
> a majority of the spoils if you're being attacked and I get the open front.
> So I'm not really expecting it to happen in '01. But in Fall (Gre) Or next
> season it could happen. However, I trust that you see that the *only*
> reason I have to (say that I) agree to the German proposal is to avoid
> creating an angry GA v R alliance. I have absolutely zero interest in an
> agreement that seeks to build a strong GA, and even less to build a strong
> GAI block, as either would basically guarantee someone comes to attack me.
Either do I. Especially if the Austrian is going to continue to jump every
time I say Boo.
> This is all a really long way of saying that I'm looking for how to hit A,
> whether now or later, given Germany's strong commitment to him. I've got
> more flexibility to attack Austria than you, but I also have both of them
> on my borders. So it's hard to assess who takes the greater risk in taking
> a clear move against him.m
Correct.
> Any thoughts on EF vs. G? Germany's pushing the alliance structure in the
> north the same way he is in the south. If EF can be created and hold
> together, that will give me the flexibility to do whatever we need down here.
I have been pushing it since the beginningof the game.....I think they are
together.
Andy
Its a flaming baton
Thats ready to twirl
Its George Bush on acid
Singing the Duke of Earl
Gonna be a new world
-Mojo Nixon
Message from England to France and Germany
> My picture is the same. AI friendly and Turkey the odd man out.
> Although I must admit I know very little about Russia.
I can contribute that I expect a bounce in the Black Sea. For what it's
worth.
Ben
Message from Germany to Austria
I have spoken to Russia, he informed me that the pair of you were still working on the GAL situation (to bounce or not to bounce).
Apart from that I am still awaiting some communication to confirm the cooporation between all 4 of us else AIG go it alone and await Russia's spring moves.
I am still in negotiations with Russia, he ofcourse is insisting that I dont bounce him in Sweden. I said that I would not as long as I had no reason to do so. I also coupled the AR coming to agreemnt on GAL as part of this agreement. So if he does doubble cross you then you can count on me.
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Germany was pushing for a northern opening. You needn't worry about an
army
> in StP in Fall, that just won't be happening. At the same time, I won't
> open to Pru in Spring, but I don't expect that's what you meant.
No, I meant LVN. I imagine Germany was hoping for the error MOS - STP,
which I am glad to hear is off the table.
> Sorry, the last message was a bit rambly. I need to learn never to write
> right after a bad football game by the Raiders. :) My thinking is never
> straight under those circumstances.
What's wrong with blowing a 15 point halftime lead? And losing? Good lord
you must have had a rough few weeks. ;-)
Ben
Message from Germany to England and France
I do now understand that AI are having a little disagreement on the spring moves concerning VEN.
Austria wants to move TRI - VEN no matter what. This is only good news for us as this limits Italys orders.
This also means that he cant move to PIE which fits our plan fine. But there again I couldnt see him moving there anyway. I have a DMZ agreement on TYR for what its worth in S1901M.
I also hear that Russia and Austria are fine tuning details on GAL. Maybe no bounce or agreed bounce.
If its no bounce then thats either bad news for Turkey or England. Either way it still doesnt interfere with our plan. My moves are in too with set wait.
Message from France to Austria
Phillipe:
I know you've said things are just fine with Andy, but since he's a mutual
problem, I really think we need to be as open with each other about our
plans and relationship with him as we can. Even if one or both of us is
working with him right off the bat in '01, Italy generally becomes a
headache for both of us at some point.
If you and Italy have agreed to team up and head in opposite directions,
do you really want to see Italy succeed wildly in his attack against me
and suddenly jump to five or six centers in the first couple of years? I
think not. It's in your interest for me to be prepared.
I can tell you this much about my plans: I'm not going to attack Andy
unless I really think he's planning to head west. I've got enough
headaches sorting out Germany and England's various demands over Belgium
(they both want it, but England will probably end up with it) while making
sure they don't get too cozy. If I have to protect against an Italian
attack, it's going to leave a door open for the two of them to work
together.
As far as Andy's press to me goes -- well, he's not the most talkative of
neighbors, as I'm sure you know. He's promised me over and over that I
don't have to worry about an attack from him, and he's agreed to a few
DMZs. If he's being honest, that leaves two options -- you and Turkey. So,
unless you're coordinating an attack on Turkey with him, I wouldn't leave
Trieste too wide open.
Please help me with whatever information you can about his opening. It's
in both our interests to have an eye on both sides of him. I'll let you
know anything I might find out about his plans, as well.
Erik
Message from France to England
> Hopefully the AI will be turning east toward Turkey. Keep in mind Tony
> is
> as nervous about Andy as Andy is about Tony, so I do not think Tony
> would
> warn Andy that you will be coming. At least I hope so.
Hopefully. Assuming Tony and Andy aren't playing their mutual concern for
one another up in an attempt to create a smokescreen, we can perhaps use
it to our advantage. I'm going to play the move to Piedmont off as a step
taken out of Tony's constant warnings to me of an impending attack from
Italy. If you should happen to chat with Italy, it might be a good idea to
mention that Tony is asking you to convince me to attack Andy, just so the
story has some weight when I tell it later.
> Absolutely. I sent you a press a few days ago on this point, including
> a
> way to turn the Western Triple to our advantage in F'01. I attached
> that
> press at the bottom of this one.
Yes, I saw and read through this after I'd sent this mail. I'll respond
down below.
> I think we should lower the boom in F'01. After F'01 it becomes much
> more
> tricky.
If, however, we see that Tony is following through and we've got some shot
at northern / southern gains, we might want to consider letting it go
longer. I know it gets trickier, but I think we should at least be willing
to be flexible. I will look at that article more today and try to find
another, later point in the strategy to go for a German attack.
In general, though, I think you're right. Given Tony's rep, we should plan
on using this as a set-up for his fall.
> Two things. First of all Tony has not actually committed yet. He said he
> wanted to see what I thought, & I said I was in, but he has not said he
> would do it yet. Not that we should harp on it; I'm just pointing that
> out.
I think he's pretty clearly in now. Has he confirmed his moves with us yet?
>
> Second. Because of the drawbacks for us as we push into '02 and beyond,
> let me point out an alternate set of orders for Fall '01:
> England
> EDI - NTH - HOL
> NWG - NWY
> France
> GAS - BUR
> PIE - TYR
> MAO - SPA/sc
This sounds tentatively good, but let me look at the map before I commit
to it. In any case, our orders for '01 are set.
Once you get two builds, what are you going to do with them? A Lon and F
Edi? And where do we proceed once we've stabbed? I'll take a stab at
Munich while you press on for Kiel and Denmark; I can also build A Par and
head for an easy grab of Bel in Fall of 02. With Nth - Hel, Hol - Kiel and
Lon - Nth, you should be in a position to grab one of Kiel or Denmark in
02. This is all planning a little far in advance, but it's good to have an
idea of where we're heading.
We need to make sure that Russia has two units in or around Warsaw after
S01 to prevent Germany from taking it, but I think I can do that without
tipping our hand too much -- I've got a decent rapport with Russia, and I
can just warn him to watch for a German assault, which I think he's
concerned about anyway.
> The key would be getting Andy not to freak out as you passed from PIE -
> TYR. I think we could do it, diplomatically, & I would try to exert some
> influence there too to help you out. Perhaps rather than involve him
> now,
> just try to smooth things over in the fall after you've entered PIE in
> the
> spring. I'll leave it to you - you know him better than I do.
>
As I said before, I think Andy and I have enough of a history that,
combined with accusations of German meddling, I can probably explain it
away and get access to Tyr. The only thing that could upset this plan, as
I said, is if Andy and Tony are, in fact, in cahoots and using the "fear
of each other" factor purely deceptively. I'm not really concerned about
that, though. I think the mutual wariness is real.
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
FYI, I'm writing a press to Germany in which I talk about how England is
always the better-off party in the Western Triple, and about he and I are
going to need to keep an eye on you starting in '02. I want him to think
there's a little animosity brewing between us so that there's less
potential suspicion that he's being set up for a fall.
Just wanted you to be aware of this in case it gets back to you through
him or another source.
Erik
Message from France to Germany
(note that England has been excluded from this press)
Tony:
> Austria wants to move TRI - VEN no matter what. This is only good news
> for us as this limits Italys orders.
How do you know this? Austria's been exceptionally vague in his messages
to me, so I'm surprised he would be so blunt with you. You must have had
better luck cultivating a relationship with him. In any case, it's good to
know. Andy has been adamant in his claims that he's not interested in
attacking me, so knowing that there's going to be some Austrian pressure
definitely helps.
> I also hear that Russia and Austria are fine tuning details on GAL.
> Maybe no bounce or agreed bounce.
As far as I know, Russia's playing a conservative opening, but doesn't
suspect an attack from you. I didn't know about the bounce. You may not
take Warsaw in '01, but the bounce in Sweden and the fall '01 move to
Livonia and Prussia should guarantee you the center in '02.
> If its no bounce then thats either bad news for Turkey or England.
> Either way it still doesnt interfere with our plan. My moves are in too
> with set wait.
>
Excellent, mine too. I'll send out a confirmation e-mail of what our moves
should be to both you and England in a second, but I wanted to chat with
you first about where to head after '02. England is typically the prime
beneficiary of a Western Triple, given his ability to stab while you're
fighting Russia and I'm off in the Mediterranean. I'm hoping this
variation will lessen that advantage to some degree. We need to be
prepared to switch direction after '02 and take him on. Any idea how you
can justify a fleet build in Kiel when we start reaping the benefits from
the triple attack? I'm not sure that a lone fleet in Brest will be enough
to handle an England with a fleet in London and Nth and another fleet up
north somewhere.
Erik
Message from Germany to France
Erik, well I have been thinking about it too. His opening compared to mine
and yours is fairly standard.
You on the otherhand move on Italy and I move on Russia. You also have to
push your fleet through to the med. This does indeed leave you with a single
fleet in BRE.
This does leave him free to join forces with IR after the spring move
leaving us in a bad light by saying "hey GF obviously have something going,
let the 3 of us gang up on them".
As you pointed out he will be very strong with all his fleets amd a major
threat to you. Especially if Italy joins him and builds fleet too. I would
be to busy fighting off Russia.
Do you think England would do all that? the only problem we have is that our
moves are attacking moves on our neighbours. His arent and he can change
sides for the fall, we cant as we have committed ourselves.
Do you want to move on him in the spring? Maybe we should discuss this
further. Let me know.
Message from France to England and Germany
So let me just confirm the moves for S01:
England:
F Edi - Nwg
F Lon - Nth
A Lvp - Yor (or are you heading to Edi instead?)
France:
F Bre - Mao
A Par - Gas
A Mar - Pie
Germany:
F Kiel - Den
A Ber - Pru
A Mun - Sil
I should also note that I've been telling other powers that the extent of
our negotiations has been a deal surrounding the disposition of Belgium:
if anyone asks, we should all stick to the story that we've agreed to let
England take Belgium with a fleet. Details beyond that are up to each of
you. I'm also telling people that I've had friendly and lengthy but
ultimately non-commital discussions with both of you.
Message from Austria to France
Hi Erik,
First, let me thank you for giving me your impression of RT.
Even if it didn't give me much to go on, I still appreciated it.
Now for your questions:
> I know you've said things are just fine with Andy, but since he's a mutual
> problem, I really think we need to be as open with each other about our
> plans and relationship with him as we can. Even if one or both of us is
> working with him right off the bat in '01, Italy generally becomes a
> headache for both of us at some point.
Since I told you so, things have become more tense between
Andy and I. It still look allright, but he seem frustated that I
wasn't ready to trust him as much as he wanted. Will see what
happen, but we are on the same page regarding Italy.
> If you and Italy have agreed to team up and head in opposite directions,
> do you really want to see Italy succeed wildly in his attack against me
> and suddenly jump to five or six centers in the first couple of years? I
> think not. It's in your interest for me to be prepared.
If I hear anything, I will be sure to let you know; but I doubt
he would let me in on a plan to invade France at the moment.
> I can tell you this much about my plans: I'm not going to attack Andy
> unless I really think he's planning to head west. I've got enough
> headaches sorting out Germany and England's various demands over Belgium
> (they both want it, but England will probably end up with it) while making
> sure they don't get too cozy. If I have to protect against an Italian
> attack, it's going to leave a door open for the two of them to work
> together.
That's perfectly normal. I don't think anyone expect France to
go after Italy right off the bat.
> As far as Andy's press to me goes -- well, he's not the most talkative of
> neighbors, as I'm sure you know. He's promised me over and over that I
> don't have to worry about an attack from him, and he's agreed to a few
> DMZs. If he's being honest, that leaves two options -- you and Turkey. So,
> unless you're coordinating an attack on Turkey with him, I wouldn't leave
> Trieste too wide open.
Don't worry, I'm not taking any chances and that's probably
why he's disappointed.
> Please help me with whatever information you can about his opening. It's
> in both our interests to have an eye on both sides of him. I'll let you
> know anything I might find out about his plans, as well.
My feeling is that he isn't opening with an attack on France,
but please don't bet the farm on what I think Andy will do. I
don't want to be responsible for your faring badly.
In fact, I would suggest keeping your options open. In your
place, I would open with Bre-Mao, Mar-Bur & Par-Pic or
Gas. With an organize bounce in Bur, you keep an army in
Mar to take Spain or react to surprises coming from Andy.
Best regards,
Philippe
Message from France to Germany
>
> Do you think England would do all that? the only problem we have is that
> our
> moves are attacking moves on our neighbours. His arent and he can change
> sides for the fall, we cant as we have committed ourselves.
Interesting dimension -- I was thinking tactically that he had an
advantage, but he's also got a bit of a diplomatic advantage, too.
I suppose much of this hinges on what Turkey and Austria are planning. If
Austria is going after Italy in the first year, then Italy's in a world of
trouble. Even if he and England start working together, he may not be able
to field enough of an offense to be a problem for me.
I really doubt Turkey is attacking Russia early, but once he sees you and
England headed in for the kill, he might be easily convinced to join in
the fray. In fact, I suspect that's exactly the sort of wait-and-see plan
that he's using.
So, our ability to deal with England long-term depends on our ability to
pull Austria and Turkey into conflict with each of our targets. Tell you
what: we move as we're planning right now. If it's clear that AI are
allied and that T isn't going to hit Russia, then we can still back out:
neither of us is overcommited, Russia won't be too miffed because you
won't have bounced him in Sweden yet, and while Italy will still be a
problem for me, I can get the two builds from Por and Spa and be able to
field a fleet in Brest while holding off Italy if diplomacy fails.
If Italy and Russia are being attacked from multiple sides, though, then I
think this triple has a real benefit for all of us, even if England has
some minor advantage in the end. In that event, we continue on
through '02, pick up our additional builds, finish off Russia, and
encourage Turkey and what's left of Italy to squeeze out Austria while we
build fleets, double back and take on England. S03 a long way away, of
course, but at least this gives us a roadmap. If things really change, we
adjust and deal with them.
For now, though, we really need to pile on the press and get Austria and
Turkey working towards Italy and Russia. Agreed?
Erik
Message from Russia to England
> > I need to learn never to write
> > right after a bad football game by the Raiders. :) My thinking is never
> > straight under those circumstances.
>
>What's wrong with blowing a 15 point halftime lead? And losing? Good lord
>you must have had a rough few weeks. ;-)
Well I was at the game last week (vs. San Diego) which was annoying
but ended well, so I thought things were going to get better. Of
course, I'm also a Giants (baseball) fan, so yes, it has been just a
lovely time in sports-land here!
--- Tzarface
Message from France to Italy
Andy:
> Which is?
The plan, at least as far as I know, is for England to occupy Belgium with
a fleet. Tony may be planning to block this, but I'm not.
>
> You and Ben should be talking alot. You need to get on the same page.
>
I am doing what I can. Ben is being friendly and talkative but non-
commital. I think he wants to see if I'll let him into Belgium first. I
wish he'd recognize the danger in Tony's abilities a little more readily.
I think those early German broadcasts rubbed Ben the wrong way, but who
knows? They could already be working together. My hope is to open
conservatively, not committing anywhere too boldly, and the continue to
develop my relationship with Ben and get him moving with me against
Germany.
If you could continue to encourage Ben to work with me, I'd really
appreciate it.
> I will agree to everything but TYS.....it borders two of my home centers
> and none of yours....sorry.
Okay, that's reasonable enough. I had to ask, though.
> The austrian player makes the Turk from the 1st game possatively
> trusting.
>
Yikes. Sorry to hear that. Wish I could offer you some insight into his
plans, but he's been incredibly vague. I heard from another source that
he's planning to move Trieste - Venice, but I have no idea how reliable
that information is, and given that I'm probably telling it to you fourth-
hand, I wouldn't put a lot of trust in it. Thought I'd pass it along just
in case, though.
Erik
Message from France to France
Peanut gallery:
What you're seeing in my press to E is pretty much the straight story. Ben
may be setting me up for a fall, but after surveying the lay of the land,
he seems like he's being the most honest with me and is the most committed
to working with me. I don't see much in the way of signs of duplicity
involving England, so I'm going to assume we're working as partners and
run with it. If he is tricking me, he's doing a good job of it.
I am pretty certain that GAI have been having some discussions, and that
Germany had no long-term (2+ years) interest in working with Ben or I. His
lack of private press to me during the triple suggestions, contrasted
against the volume of private press from Ben, suggests this, though I
suppose he could be talking with Ben on the side and I'm the real one in
danger. Nevertheless, I suspect that Tony is honestly going to open hard
against Russia, possibly with Austria's help, and wants to deal with the
two of us later.
The big question for me is what Tony and Andy are going to each other: is
Tony going to let Andy know that I'm attacking him, in hopes of slowing me
down, or is he going to let me attack Andy without warning in hopes of
slowing Andy down? It's hard to figure out, and I probably never will. In
any case, if Ben and I go to work against Germany, it may be a moot point.
Enough yammering. I have to respond to Germany's latest message.
Erik
Message from Observer to Observer
> Message from buffalo@guisarme.net as Italy to France in 'c2':
>
>
>
>>Haven't heard from you in a while (which, frankly, makes me a little
>>nervous). The situation in the west is resolving a little bit; everyone
>>is being very amicable, and we may have worked out a plan for Belgium,
>
>
> Which is?
Italy gets it?
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
Greg wrote:
> >>Haven't heard from you in a while (which, frankly, makes me a little
> >>nervous). The situation in the west is resolving a little bit; everyone
> >>is being very amicable, and we may have worked out a plan for Belgium,
> >
> >
> > Which is?
>
>
>Italy gets it?
Nah. It should go to Russia this time.
Oscar
Message from France to Russia
Tzarface:
>
> I'm convinced that there has been shared GAI press. But obviously if
> there's a central alliance, I wouldn't know about it!
Good point.
> So I have a bad feeling I'm
> going to see my first Mun-Sil, Ber-Pru, Vie-Gal, Smy-Arm opening.
I wish I could say otherwise, but I have to tell you that signs are
pointing to a German attack against you early. Even if that's not correct
and you're not looking to risk get into a fight with him in the first
turn, I'd keep an army around your front with him just in case.
As I said, I'm leaning toward an EF attack against Germany, simply because
the threat of a central alliance and the supposed quality of Tony's play
suggests that course of action. I hope to have everything cemented by the
end of S01; once the alliance is set in place over here, I'll go over the
details with you and we can decide the best way to work against EG down
the road. If Germany opens strong against you, England and I can probably
move in quickly on him from Holland / Denmark / Munich.
While you'll need to keep Warsaw intact, I'm hoping England's eventual
attack on Germany will give you a chance to move a little bit of force up
north to help push England back and give you a shot at Scandanavia. Too
early for those specifics, I suppose, but I can't help thinking ahead.
>
> >Do you have any idea what's happening between AIT?
>
> Turkey tells me he's taking a wait-and-see approach, which basically
> means
> nothing to me except that he's not ready to agree to an alliance with
> me.
>
> I know that's not really much information, but for now that's the best
> I've
> got.
Pretty much jives with what he's told me, which is "hey, thanks for
writing, but let's see what happens in '01." Not the best approach for a
Turkish player, if you ask me ... Are you two bouncing in Bla?
So what's the story with Tzarface? Role-playing that you decided to
abandon, or just your broadcast persona?
Erik
Message from France to Turkey
Jason:
The word on the street is that you're taking a wait-and-see approach to
the first turn. While I can understand this, I think you out to consider
being a little more proactive with your neighbors. In the past couple of
days, I've heard various accounts of GI cooperation, AI cooperation, IR
cooperation, and even talk of a central alliance. The only thing I know
for sure is that there's been a lot of press between Germany, Austria and
Italy.
Frankly, I don't want to see you eliminated early by some combination of
AIRT. If Austria and Italy are working together, Italy's main target is
going to be me as soon as you're gone. You're the only other power on the
board other than me who can keep Italy from becoming a major Mediterranean
power, and I'd hate to have to take him on without any chance of support
from you. It's in my interest to see you survive -- we can be of great use
to each other later on.
Maybe I'm completely wrong here and you've been actively negotiating all
sorts of deals, but if I'm not, please think about what I've said and get
on the horn with your neighbors. I've sent plenty of press to all of them,
so if there's a particular angle your pushing for, I can certainly try to
help you out. Just let me know.
Erik
Message from France to Austria
>
> If I hear anything, I will be sure to let you know; but I doubt
> he would let me in on a plan to invade France at the moment.
>
Of course not. But you never know -- people slip up.
>
> In fact, I would suggest keeping your options open. In your
> place, I would open with Bre-Mao, Mar-Bur & Par-Pic or
> Gas. With an organize bounce in Bur, you keep an army in
> Mar to take Spain or react to surprises coming from Andy.
That's pretty close to my actual plans. I'm not too worried, even if he
does attack.
Do you *want* me to attack Andy? If you're attacking, too, I'm willing to
consider it. I can probably do something to keep EG off my back for a
little while, and we're both interested in a quick attack on Italy, we
might as well not beat around the bush. I'm certainly open to it if you're
interested, but given how little I know of your dealings with RT right
now, I hadn't really been planning for it.
Erik
Message from Observer to Observer
Oscar Dijkhoff wrote:
> Greg wrote:
>
>>>>Haven't heard from you in a while (which, frankly, makes me a little
>>>>nervous). The situation in the west is resolving a little bit; everyone
>>>>is being very amicable, and we may have worked out a plan for Belgium,
>>>
>>>
>>>Which is?
>>
>>
>>Italy gets it?
>
>
> Nah. It should go to Russia this time.
Why not Turkey?
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
Greg wrote:
> >>Italy gets it?
> >
> >
> > Nah. It should go to Russia this time.
>
>
>
>Why not Turkey?
No special reason. They can both get it in just three seasons.
Oscar
Message from Austria to France
> Do you *want* me to attack Andy? If you're attacking, too, I'm willing to
> consider it. I can probably do something to keep EG off my back for a
> little while, and we're both interested in a quick attack on Italy, we
> might as well not beat around the bush. I'm certainly open to it if you're
> interested, but given how little I know of your dealings with RT right
> now, I hadn't really been planning for it.
Might have been interesting, but without knowing for sure
what RT is up to, it's too risky for my taste. Can't start
attacking my potential saviour can I ;-)
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
--- In c2b@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dowling <politas@e...> wrote:
> Ah, I see what you mean, but I wouldn't call that "deference".
> Deference implies that the lesser-ranked people would be doing like
> "Well, I'm so lucky to playing in a game with you, why don't you tell
> me what to do?" ie, they defer their judgement onto the experienced
> player. That's not happening.
There are several things going on. I do believe I see deference in the press
too which you have explained well. I'll pull out an example or two.
Message from England to France
> We need to make sure that Russia has two units in or around Warsaw after
> S01 to prevent Germany from taking it, but I think I can do that without
> tipping our hand too much -- I've got a decent rapport with Russia, and I
> can just warn him to watch for a German assault, which I think he's
> concerned about anyway.
***Don't do this if you haven't****
I've already pushed that envelope as far as I can & i don't want to alert
the east to an '01 WT. I hope it's not too late.
Will write more soon.
Ben
Message from France to Austria
>
> Might have been interesting, but without knowing for sure
> what RT is up to, it's too risky for my taste. Can't start
> attacking my potential saviour can I ;-)
>
Okay. Let me know if you change your mind. I'll have to secure the Western
Med area at some point in the future, and it makes sense to do so when
you're coming at him from the other side. And, of course, if he comes
after you first, I will try, if possible, to open a second front and take
some pressure off you. I'd like to think you might be willing to do the
same for me.
Erik
Message from Austria to Austria
OK. I will use the opportunity France provided me to sum up my progress.
France:
I was waiting for the right moment to send a grey press to incite
him to protect Bur with an arrange bounce with Germany, but his
latest press gave me the opportunity to present this idea without
coming off anti-german and the grey press is no longer necessary.
Obviously, I don't want France to leave himself open to a stab by
Germany or Italy, but a german army in Munich this fall is what
I'm looking for and Tony doesn't seem to want to waste the unit
just to insure my safety.
England:
I don't actually expect him to go after Russia in strength, but I
wanted to make sure he would be ready to act if I was actually
stuck with an RT (compare to what happened in the previous
comments game, wich I'm not finish reading by the way). My
guess is that he's hoping to see an AT vs R alliance that would
take Russia out of the equation in the north. His statement also
provided me with some bargaining chip with Turkey.
Germany:
Given the choice between a very competent players and one
that is easier to influence, I prefer the expert to play Germany
when I'm Austria. At least, this way I don't have to be afraid
someone else will be able to talked him into attacking me when
it's not in his interest. Anyway, I can always hope to influence
him through his western neighbours with friendly advices. Not
that I will be the only one doing it seem from France's statement:
"From what I can tell right now, Italy sees Germany as a big long-term
threat, and would like to see him tied up in a squabble with as many
people as possible. He's certainly been goading England and I into early
animosity with him. Whether this is because Andy wants to head east and
needs the West off his back or because he wants to attack me and needs me
distracted I don't know, but I'll be keeping my eye on my southern centers
nevertheless."
Anyway, if Andy is allready taking care of the "let's attack the
expert" press, I can sit back and enjoy the show without risking
words getting back to Tony.
Italy:
I insisted on my strong defence and indicated I didn't mind taking
it slow. Neither sit very well with Italy and I will be taking flaks
for it in the short term. Just got to be patient and hope I was clear
enough about my desire to work with him.
Turkey:
I try to be as subtle as I could about influencing him to open with
the russian attack, but I doubt I was. If anyone know of a way
to make sure of Smy-Arm that is more discreet, I will be glad to
read about it after the game.
Now, as it paid up? I will only know for sure once I see the spring's
results; but I did try my best to make sure I wasn't being bullshitted.
I even used England's willingness to attack Russia as an extra
argument not to side with Russia after he confirmed the move to Arm.
Russia:
I was disappointed with his lack of communication with me; but
since it seem to be related with Germany's efforts toward the GIAR,
I don't mind. I try addressing his concerns, be they be real or not,
and indicated that I would be a valid ally and not some german puppet.
By letting him decide about Galicia, I also went fishing for information.
He wasn't straightforward about his arranged bounce in Bla, contrarily
to Turkey, and I welcome the chance to learn a bit more about him.
This was risky as I had told him of Tri-Ven and fearing for Rumania,
he might have prefered the bounce to keep me in Vie; but since he
didn't, Mos is probably going north to deal with hostiles or ambivalents
neighbours (Stp-Bot, Mos-Sev, War-Ukr & Sev-Bla).
If I'm not reading too much into this, I'm well positioned for the stab
on Russia. Without gains and an army going the wrong way, I should
be able to prevail against him in the south and work my way to a corner
position. Leaving me with the hard task of eliminating Turkey in alliance
with Italy.
Of course, this might all be a trap. IRT ganging up without caring for
whatever measure I took to protect myself. Turkey might not believe
England is going to attack his russian ally forcing him to defend instead
of pursueing a serious offensive. Italy might not believe I will actually
open with Tri-Ven or believe it without thinking it would be effective
enough. Russia might believe he's going to be denied Sweden whatever
happen and prefer to take his chances with an austrian invasion.
Let's hope it's not the case and I will get my two builds, the second
one being Rumania or Greece depending on how exposed Russia is,
Philippe
Message from Austria to France
> after you first, I will try, if possible, to open a second front and take
> some pressure off you. I'd like to think you might be willing to do the
> same for me.
Of course.
Philippe
Message from France to England
>
> I've already pushed that envelope as far as I can & i don't want to
> alert
> the east to an '01 WT. I hope it's not too late.
>
I haven't said anything specific. Russia's worried about a central
alliance. I commented that such an alliance seemed possible, and
recommended that he keep a unit in or around Warsaw to defend against it.
I didn't realize you were doing the same thing. I won't push the issue.
I am beginning to think that Tony's actually managed to become part of a
GAI *and* a Western Triple. They're not necessarily incompatible, and they
put him in an excellent position. As such, I think the only people who
might be concerned about a Western triple are Russia and Turkey. Turkey's
being too passive, as far as I can tell, for an RT alliance to pop up. I'm
hoping that GAI is the focus of Russia's concern.
Should one of us switch gears and downplay the German threat? May not be
such a good idea. Let's just drop it and hope for the best. I think
Russia's already planning conservative play.
Erik
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> Well I was at the game last week (vs. San Diego) which was annoying
> but ended well, so I thought things were going to get better. Of
> course, I'm also a Giants (baseball) fan, so yes, it has been just a
> lovely time in sports-land here!
A frustrating couple of years, even. But I don't understand - you are a
fan of the Oakland Raiders but not Oakland A's, and the San Francisco
Giants but not the San Francisco 49'ers?
I am closely familiar with some Raider frustration in recent years,
incidentally. I am from Baltimore. Glad to see Rich Gannon's shoulder's
recovered. . .
[ducks]
Ben
Message from Germany to England and France
Thats what it says on the site, and the site is easy to follow. So yes I can
cofirm them. Set wait has also been done.
Message from Russia to France
>I wish I could say otherwise, but I have to tell you that signs are
>pointing to a German attack against you early. Even if that's not correct
>and you're not looking to risk get into a fight with him in the first
>turn, I'd keep an army around your front with him just in case.
Well, I just wrote a long comment to the list (i.e., press to self)
that talked about what I see as the pros and cons of risking an early
GAT vs. R attack. Results in this game will probably affect the way I
approach games in the future!
>While you'll need to keep Warsaw intact, I'm hoping England's eventual
>attack on Germany will give you a chance to move a little bit of force up
>north to help push England back and give you a shot at Scandanavia. Too
>early for those specifics, I suppose, but I can't help thinking ahead.
I don't mind this kind of hypothetical discussion at all, though I
agree that specifics are fluid at this point.
>Pretty much jives with what he's told me, which is "hey, thanks for
>writing, but let's see what happens in '01." Not the best approach for a
>Turkish player, if you ask me ... Are you two bouncing in Bla?
If not, I'll be very surprised. :)
>So what's the story with Tzarface? Role-playing that you decided to
>abandon, or just your broadcast persona?
I wanted to respond to the grey broadcast, and I figured role-playing
the angry response was more effective than trying to be defensive or
leaving it unanswered. So it's really just the broadcast persona.
I leave my messages signed as "Tzarface" because I like to have a
different name in different games. It just helps me to remember the
game and game history when I'm composing a message. Also, I usually
edit an old message rather than composing from scratch to avoid
retyping the whole "signon...." stuff, so it keeps me from grabbing
the wrong template and sending press to someone in a different game.
--- Eric/Tzarface
Message from England to France and Germany
> So let me just confirm the moves for S01:
>
> England:
> F Edi - Nwg
> F Lon - Nth
> A Lvp - Yor (or are you heading to Edi instead?)
I'd set EDI, but YOR makes more sense, so I'll switch it.
>
> France:
> F Bre - Mao
> A Par - Gas
> A Mar - Pie
>
> Germany:
> F Kiel - Den
> A Ber - Pru
> A Mun - Sil
>
> I should also note that I've been telling other powers that the extent of
> our negotiations has been a deal surrounding the disposition of Belgium:
> if anyone asks, we should all stick to the story that we've agreed to let
> England take Belgium with a fleet. Details beyond that are up to each of
> you. I'm also telling people that I've had friendly and lengthy but
> ultimately non-commital discussions with both of you.
Ok, my orders are in. I am setting no wait.
Ben
Message from England to England
Prediction for Spring '01:
England:
LVP - YOR
EDI - NWG
LON - NTH
This one was tricky!
France:
F Bre - Mao
A Par - Gas
A Mar - Pie
This could all have been an elaborate trick to get me to leave ENG exposed.
But I doubt it.
Germany:
F Kiel - Den
A Ber - Pru
A Mun - Sil
The analysis I sent France was sincere. I think Tony and Andy justifiably
consider each other the most dangerous players on the map. The Western
Triple if actually done would limit Italian growth while Germany spread
across the stalemate line. Beautiful thing, for him.
Turkey:
CON - BUL
ANK - BLA
SMY h
My guess is, an RT is in the works. Lots will change in S'01 and then lots
more in F'01, if Erik & I follow through against Germany. Hopefully we
will be able to get an AI pushing East, after we put Germany on his heels.
Austria:
VIE - GAL
BUD - SER
TRI - VEN
I should be so lucky.
Italy:
VEN h
ROM - NAP
NAP - ION
I do not think Andy will want to hold but this conservative opening will
allow him to demonstrate some faithfulness to Austria while putting himself
in a position to follow through. More radical would be VEN - PIE, ROM -
VEN, but that limits eastward expansion agreements & probably is a needless
violation of a dmz.
Russia:
WAR - GAL
MOS - UKR
STP - BOT
SEV - BLA
After all the hemming & hawing I think he will play conservatively.
We will see. . .
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I haven't said anything specific. Russia's worried about a central
> alliance. I commented that such an alliance seemed possible, and
> recommended that he keep a unit in or around Warsaw to defend against it.
> I didn't realize you were doing the same thing. I won't push the issue.
Ok. It sounds like we're on cruise control for the spring, then.
> I am beginning to think that Tony's actually managed to become part of a
> GAI *and* a Western Triple. They're not necessarily incompatible, and they
> put him in an excellent position. As such, I think the only people who
> might be concerned about a Western triple are Russia and Turkey. Turkey's
> being too passive, as far as I can tell, for an RT alliance to pop up. I'm
> hoping that GAI is the focus of Russia's concern.
This is what I think. Austria is in Germany's hip pocket. I infer this
from a couple of things, not the least of which is Germany's comment that
Austria is insisting on TRI - VEN. I am guessing if Tony did not suggest
that himself he certainly did nothing to discourage it. No doubt Tony and
Andy each figure that with the other gone, the rest of us are chopped
liver. Other factors too but that's a big one.
If Austria is in Germany's hip pocket then you can bet that there will be
an Austrian attack against Russia: move to GAL, etc.
> Should one of us switch gears and downplay the German threat? May not be
> such a good idea. Let's just drop it and hope for the best. I think
> Russia's already planning conservative play.
I've pretty much dropped everything & am waiting for the moves to process.
Italy will not want a two front war. My guess is, with Austria pissing him
off, he will want to head east just to stay in position to deal with
Austria, even if he's starting after Turkey. Who knows. His spring is
constrained by TRI - VEN.
Andy is not really an alliance player. I think a GAI is pretty much the
same as a GA, with Andy using it to his profit for as long as it serves him.
Finally, I want to point out that the DMZ TYR and TRI - VEN are godsends
for our effort to sneak MAR around to TYR.
Ben
Message from Austria to Russia
> Gotcha. I'm fine with a DMZ there. And since it does allow us to establish
> some trust that's a bonus as well.
Then it's settle, we leave Galicia alone and rely on the dmz.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Germany
> I have spoken to Russia, he informed me that the pair of you were still working on the GAL situation (to bounce or not to bounce).
It's been settle. We will not bounce in Gal.
> Apart from that I am still awaiting some communication to confirm the cooporation between all 4 of us else AIG go it alone and
await Russia's spring moves.
> I am still in negotiations with Russia, he ofcourse is insisting that I dont bounce him in Sweden. I said that I would not as long
as I had no reason to do so. I also coupled the AR coming to agreemnt on GAL as part of this agreement. So if he does doubble cross
you then you can count on me.
>
What's left to discuss exactly? Also, do you intend to keep a
unit in Munich just in case or do you trust Andy completely?
Philippe
Message from Italy to England and France
Gentlemen,
I cannot express strongly enough the need for the 2 of you to work
together against Germany. He is extremely strong, and has at least on
other power in his pocket.
I have Russia good with the idea that Germany must be hemmed also,
so you should be in decent shape there.
Get a plan together and then take him down.
Andy
Message from Russia to Russia
Greetings commentators,
In an attempt to actually follow the guidelines of the game, here's a
status report with Russian blinders on:
Generally:
I tend to play a game where I react to the desires of the other
players, rather than trying to pressure their decisions -- especially
early in the game. I imagine you can already see that coming through
in my early press, where I asked each of AT whether they wanted a
bounce or a DMZ in Gal/Bla, but also in the way I reacted to
Germany's RAI press. What I'm finding over time is that this strategy
works well as long as you don't become the first target on the board.
In my last two games, I've been the first target, and had three way
alliances that eliminated me very early on.
I also tend to be honest about my early moves. I really don't want
anyone surprised by my moves prior to S02 at the earliest. As with
the being reactionary, it's worked well when I'm not the first target.
Players:
Austria: My interactions with Austria have probably been my worst so
far. In particular, my assumption that Germany's press to IAR was an
indication of strong GA coordination caused me to focus too much on
Germany's message and too little on Austria's, even if I was correct
in my assessment. Basically, I have been dealing with him through
middle-men instead of directly, and that's a big mistake.
England: We seem to be hitting things off well, though clearly my
pressing to discuss futures bothered him, and should have been a sign
not to mention anything about northern openings (except that they
won't be happening). A case of "being too open" -- a side-effect
issue of the being too honest early -- that is also causing me
problems in other games.
France: Cooperation looks to be good, but of course there's no real
risk to either of us directly from the other, so it makes sense that
we help each other out.
Germany: Mostly discussed above. It took me a long time to put
together a message that was not antagonistic in response to the GIA
message. No doubt that's why I overlooked sending him a response
earlier. That was *not* intentional, but since he no doubt knows that
other people got press at the same time, it was a mistake.
Italy: It hurts my brain to write such short messages to him. :) I'm
a windbag, but watching C1 it seems that rambling is a bad idea with
him. I probably shouldn't do it with anyone, actually! No doubt he's
going to be good practice for me, even if he doesn't care that I try
to keep messages to him short.
Turkey: Much the same comments as with England in terms of
cooperation but I have less confidence that he's going to want to
work with me.
Situation:
I won't open north. I will open to Ukr and Bla, which is basically a
no-brainer. So my only real decision is what to do with whichever
unit does not take Ukr. Holding in War gives me security in case of a
German attack, but antagonizes both G and A. Holding in Mos or moving
Mos-Sev could leave me more open to an attack and the latter could be
seen as antagonistic by Turkey (even though he knows I know it will
fail). But the big question is whether or not DMZing Gal is a
mistake. I am seriously concerned about GA, AT or GAT cooperation,
which could be really ugly for me if Austria ends up in Gal and
Turkey in Arm. If I were to negotiate for what I actually want, I'd
take the bounce in Gal. If Phillipe violates the DMZ, I'll have to
seriously reconsider my "whatever you want" approach to the early
game.
So for now I'm going to trust that Andy really does have Phillipe
nervous enough to stay focused west, and that EF will keep Germany
occupied. It's not clearly in Andy's interest to see me fall quickly,
so hopefully that's not a ruse they worked out to hide a central
alliance. If Phillipe is distracted west, then hopefully at worst
he'll view me as someone to deal with later, and at best a better
ally than Turkey. I'm also hoping that EF vs. G is actually
happening, which should make Germany less of a problem. If all of
those hopes come through, I could be in a good position. Pessimist
that I am, I'm expecting Vie-Gal, Smy-Arm, Lvp-Edi-Nwy, and maybe
Mun-Pru, Ber-Sil.
--- Eric
Message from France to Italy
Andy:
Who does Tony have "in his pocket?" And if Tony's a major threat, are you
planning to move to Tyrolia, or are you counting on Russia, England and I
to deal with him so you can carry on without worrying about him?
Just curious why you're so obsessed with our working together against him.
Erik
Message from France to France
I have a few issues I'm mulling over right now.
1.) England is absolutely in the best position with the opening as it's
structured now. Given that the triple will fall apart after a season (or
two, at best), he's going to end up with two builds and me potentially at
the mercy of Italy. I don't like this, not one bit. Should I change course
completely and try to work the double-cross with Germany against England?
2.) The problem with this double-cross is the assumption on my part that
Germany's got friends in Austria and/or Italy. Maybe this isn't actually a
problem, but it seems like Tony will, at that point, be essentially
without many enemies. He could make gains in England and in Russia and
become quite formidable. Of course, the FG is usually better than EF for
France in the long run.
So what do I do? Tell Russia about the "triple" opening to ensure that
he'll leave Warsaw occupied and Livonia unoccupied? Ask Andy to bounce
with me in Piedmont so I can prevent myself from being overextended if I
decide to come after England instead of Germany?
Erik
Message from Italy to England and France
> Who does Tony have "in his pocket?" And if Tony's a major threat, are you
> planning to move to Tyrolia, or are you counting on Russia, England and I
> to deal with him so you can carry on without worrying about him?
Erik....you ask some lovely questions....
the person in his pocket is Austria. And no I dont expect the 3 of you to
carry the load, but I have this issue with Austria. Germany has already
said that if anyone moves to Tyrolia he will attack them.
> Just curious why you're so obsessed with our working together against him.
Because he is the best player at the board, and if not kept in check he
will have the 2 of you fighting in about 20 seconds, he already has at
least one guy in his pocket and I have no clue if Turkey is as well.
And you 2 have much better access to him.....If the Austrian and the
Turk attack me out of the gate, I want the Russian on my side.
He needs to go away, and since I am not in direct contact with him, I cant
do it.
Andy
Message from France to Germany
Okay, looks like everything's set. Looking at the plan, I think we're in
good shape. We can switch courses very quickly, either in F01 or S02.
England's attack against Russia can do nothing but help you spread out the
Russian defense, and F MAO can go to Iri as easily as Wes. When I double
back, England will be forced to build and move to cover me, and in the
process, will leave a hole open for your build of F Kiel.
And hey -- if the first season goes well and other players move
accordingly, we may have reason to continue with the triple until S02.
The biggest potential problems I see are:
1.) A friendly R/T or R/A, which would let Russia focus on you and
potentially partner with England against us. If T or A or both are hostile
or neutral, Russia will be more than willing to let you pull back and
attack England while he deals with the south.
2.) An AI alliance. I'd heard plenty of initial reports of AI getting
along swimmingly, and Austria has been vague when I've probed him about
attacking Italy. Are you at all worried about this, even with your belief
that A Trieste is headed for Venice and the DMZ in Tyrolia?
Erik
Message from Germany to France
Well if AI are having problems negotiating then maybe we should help them
along ;-)
As you pointed out the Italian is a little concerned about me anyway.
The turk has been very quiet. Maybe you can inquire as to how the
relationship AT is going.
I too will poke around a little and get back to you
Message from Germany to Austria
Well I am still trying to find out if he can spae a unit north. WIth you and
him beating up on austria then he has enough units south. MOS could head
north but he seems relucttant to do so.
Well france wants to bounce in BUR so MUN will remain where it is after the
bounce.
Message from Germany to England and France
I have told Austria that France and I are to bounce in BUR, he wanted to
know if my unit was remaining in MUN.
So if he decides somehow to verify it with either of you in a roundabout way
then you can confirm it.
Message from Germany to France
Yes quite secure. The east seems to be tied down with paranoia. They are all
insisting om bounces. The only risk I run
is TYR but seen as VEN is ment to bounce then VEN wont move to TYR or PIE. I
dont see Italy bouncing ROM in VEN just to get to TYR or PIE.
Message from Germany to England and France
I am trying to find out the relationship between austria and Russia and to
some extent Turkey and Italy.
I have told the austrian that I am trying to get the russian go north, just
to see if this filters back somehow. If russia approaches england then we
know where austria stands.
Message from Germany to Austria
*** darn my fat fingers and rushing, here is the correct text including a
better spelling ***
Well I am still trying to find out if he can spare a unit north. With you
and
him beating up on Turkey then he has enough units south. MOS could head
north but he seems reluctant to do so. Well france wants to bounce in BUR so
MUN will remain where it is after the
bounce.
Message from France to England and Italy
>
> Erik....you ask some lovely questions....
>
And you provide some lovely answers. I have to say, there's certainly been
some evidence of a GA relationship, but not to the extent that you've
stated. You must have a line on some info that I don't have.
> the person in his pocket is Austria. And no I dont expect the 3 of you
> to
> carry the load, but I have this issue with Austria.
What is the issue? Are you expecting an attack? Are you being forced to
bounce? If it's a bounce, what's the big deal?
>
> And you 2 have much better access to him.....If the Austrian and the
> Turk attack me out of the gate, I want the Russian on my side.
>
I wish I could give you more info on the Turk, but he hasn't exactly been
talkative, even to somebody as far from his sphere of influence as me. I
think England's had the same experience.
> He needs to go away, and since I am not in direct contact with him, I
> cant
> do it.
Understood. Thanks for providing the info you've provided so far. I'm sure
England and I will discuss in more detail. We're both aware of Tony's
strength as a player.
Erik
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Get a plan together
Be patient. Trust me.
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Gentlemen -
Russia indeed told me he was being "pressured" to open north.
Anyway I've now set nowait. Let's get it on!
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
> And you provide some lovely answers. I have to say, there's certainly been
> some evidence of a GA relationship, but not to the extent that you've
> stated. You must have a line on some info that I don't have.
Well....they want me to be thier ally, but dont want to give me any
latitude to do anything.
> > the person in his pocket is Austria. And no I dont expect the 3 of you
> > to
> > carry the load, but I have this issue with Austria.
>
> What is the issue? Are you expecting an attack? Are you being forced to
> bounce? If it's a bounce, what's the big deal?
For defensive reasons Austria is attacking Venice...just in case I thought
about moving on him, his ally.
He claims to trust me completely, but insists on moving Tri - Ven in S01'
> Understood. Thanks for providing the info you've provided so far. I'm sure
> England and I will discuss in more detail. We're both aware of Tony's
> strength as a player.
>
No problem. I will help whereever I can.
Message from Observer to Observer
Oscar Dijkhoff <dip@oehoeboeroe.nl> wrote:
>>Italy gets it?
>
>Nah. It should go to Russia this time.
Alright, but in C3, it has to be Turkey's, ok? That'd be a laugh :-)
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
Message from France to England
Did that "northern push" comment truly make its way back to you through
Russia? If so, what do you make of it? Do you think Tony instructed
Austria to leak the info to Russia?
I'm not entirely convinced that Austria is as entirely in Germany's employ
as Andy thinks. I am fairly certain, however, that Austria is making
Andy's life difficult, and that the move to Pie will succeed and then be
able to move to Tyr, as you pointed out. This looks good.
Erik
Message from Observer to Observer
Mike wrote:
> >>Italy gets it?
> >
> >Nah. It should go to Russia this time.
>
>Alright, but in C3, it has to be Turkey's, ok? That'd be a laugh :-)
Do you have anything particular against Austria?
Oscar
Message from Russia to England
>But I don't understand - you are a fan of the Oakland Raiders but
>not Oakland A's, and the San Francisco Giants but not the San
>Francisco 49'ers?
It's just a symptom of my larger emotional problems. :)
Short life story version relevant to this point: I was an army brat
in my wee years, family moved to SF, and I watched my first football
game. It was the Raiders vs. the Steelers. Kid-logic being what it
is, I decided I liked the Raiders better because they had the cooler
logo. I only later found that they were a local team. The year that
happened makes me think that I must have been watching the game that
ended with the Immaculate Reception, but I really don't remember the
details that well.
I was much older when I first got interested in baseball, and by then
we were established in SF. So I went with the Giants. I don't dislike
the A's, but I'm a fair weather fan. I was a Niner's fan when they
were a bad team, and was a big fan when they got Montana. Ironically
as they got better (through the late 80's-early 90's) I got less and
less supportive of them. Probably envious, if you recall the
performance of the Raiders over that same time frame.
>I am closely familiar with some Raider frustration in recent
>years,incidentally. I am from Baltimore. Glad to see Rich Gannon's
>shoulder's recovered. . .
More galling is that it was Shannon Sharpe who scored the crucial TD!
I thought we were finally through with him when he left Denver. But
don't worry, my frustration with Baltimore is way low on the list.
I'm actually more upset about the "fumble that wasn't" from '77 when
Denver beat the Raiders in the playoffs.
At least in Baltimore we lost because we were outplayed. Now, mention
"tuck", and we've got a whole other problem! :)
--- Tzarface
Message from Observer to Observer
----- Original Message -----
From: <c2b@yahoogroups.com>
To: <c2b@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:48 AM
Subject: [c2b] Digest Number 2
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 16:56:34 -0500
> From: Gregory A Greenman <greg@spencersoft.com>
> Subject: Re: Who sent the broadcast?
>
> Mark Ballinger wrote:
>
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but just now a broadcast went out on the c2f, and
> > nowhere does it say who sent it.
>
>
>
> Nope, they don't say. I'll have to announce it each time a player
> sends anonymous press.
>
> That one was sent by Germany.
Does that mean we have Richard Nixon playing in this game? ;-)
Regards
Peter
Message from France to Austria
Phillipe:
Another quick question for you, since we seem to have this channel open.
Do you have any idea which way Russia is headed? He's been awfully
non-commital with me, which suggests that he's worried about me tipping
of Germany or England. My ability to effectively defend against / work
with Germany and England depends heavily on Russia's plans, and it
frustrates me that he's not more forthcoming. If you have *any* idea
what his plans might be, I'd appreciate the heads up.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Andy's been sending a lot of dire warnings to England and I about Tony
-- lots of "you've got to work together, he'll chop you to pieces, run
for the hills," etc. etc. Given Andy's penchant for sending press that
only relates to his immediate future (at least, as far as I've noticed),
I'm trying to sort out the angle on this one.
My suspicion is that Germany's managed to exert a lot of influence over
the paranoid Austrian and dash a lot of Italian plans, and a frustrated
Andy is taking his revenge. Am I missing something about Tony? He hasn't
particularly impressed me so far, but you also noted that you'd like to
see him go down sooner rather than later.
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Did that "northern push" comment truly make its way back to you through
> Russia? If so, what do you make of it? Do you think Tony instructed
> Austria to leak the info to Russia?
Heh. What actually happened was, Russia told me *Germany* was pushing to
get him to open North. Who knows what to believe, anyway. Russia's been
alittle annoying too, lately.
> I'm not entirely convinced that Austria is as entirely in Germany's employ
> as Andy thinks. I am fairly certain, however, that Austria is making
> Andy's life difficult, and that the move to Pie will succeed and then be
> able to move to Tyr, as you pointed out. This looks good.
I'm not worried about Italy, tactically. I think a move to PIE is
seriously unlikely. I'm inclined to believe the TRI - VEN thing, it's
making me laugh, I also think Austria is feeling the influence of Germany.
That said, it looks like Germany may be keeping his anti-Russian opening a
*secret* from Austria, which I hadn't really expected, which is fine too.
I am very pleased overall with the way our diplomacy has gone this spring.
Ben
Message from England to France and Italy
Gentlemen -
For what it's worth I think Austria may be firmly under German control.
It would certainly explain his insistence on the A/I alliance beginning
with the - ahem - novelty TRI - VEN. Kind of reminds me of C1, actually,
Andy.
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
>
> Gentlemen -
> For what it's worth I think Austria may be firmly under German control.
>
> It would certainly explain his insistence on the A/I alliance beginning
> with the - ahem - novelty TRI - VEN. Kind of reminds me of C1, actually,
> Andy.
>
Ben, were you in C1
Message from England to France and Italy
> > It would certainly explain his insistence on the A/I alliance beginning
> > with the - ahem - novelty TRI - VEN. Kind of reminds me of C1,
actually,
> > Andy.
> >
> Ben, were you in C1
I was observing. You played an outstanding game.
Message from Italy to England and France
> > > It would certainly explain his insistence on the A/I alliance beginning
> > > with the - ahem - novelty TRI - VEN. Kind of reminds me of C1,
> actually,
> > > Andy.
> > >
> > Ben, were you in C1
>
> I was observing. You played an outstanding game.
>
Thank you..
Message from Russia to France
>My suspicion is that Germany's managed to exert a lot of influence over
>the paranoid Austrian and dash a lot of Italian plans, and a frustrated
>Andy is taking his revenge. Am I missing something about Tony? He hasn't
>particularly impressed me so far, but you also noted that you'd like to
>see him go down sooner rather than later.
That's exactly what I was getting at when I said that I get different
senses about GAI cooperation. I believe that Austria is afraid of Italy,
but Germany's done a lot to keep Italy from being able to attack Austria,
and Andy's press has gotten more "sensitive" to Austria over time.
So I could believe two things: (1) That Andy wants revenge on Germany or
(2) that Andy wants Germany sufficiently engaged that he can break the
central triple. Both come from the same point of view. I tend to think it's
the latter, and that if Germany does well (means, allies with any of us in
the north) that Andy will settle for a triple he'd rather not be a part of.
This is of course speculation on my part, but it fits with what I've been
hearing from each of GAI.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Austria
>Then it's settle, we leave Galicia alone and rely on the dmz.
Yes. I will also be moving to Bla, but as noted, expect that to bounce.
Come Fall I expect we'll both be looking for our "standard" neutrals -- is
that a reasonable assumption?
In Spring '02 we can look to really coordinate southwards.
Earlier you mentioned that you were hoping Andy was going to Lepanto. Any
sense whether that's going to actually happen? In the early going I would
have guessed that he was going to be defensive (which makes sense given
that you did tell me you were planning to move Tri-Ven) but he hasn't said
much about it since an early message.
I have no idea how things are going to go down in the north. GEF are all
friendly sounding, but none of them have made any commitments that indicate
which way they are leaning. Germany has offered Sweden if we work out Gal
(as you suggested to him and you and I have agreed we will). But I get no
sense of what their longer term leanings are. I get the sense that Germany
is more willing than the rest to be a longer term ally -- given his
"coordination efforts" -- but still don't know which way he's planning to
jump. Maybe everyone is just playing "wait and see".
Anything else we should discuss or coordinate? Early on you said you didn't
want to get into details just yet, and with that and my concern about
Germany's message, I think I haven't spent enough time actually talking
with you about us (rather than about Germany). We've still got some time
before the turn, and I'm happy to discuss anything that needs attention.
--- Tzarface
Message from Turkey to France
Interesting word on the street, but don't worry, I've been doing some
talking of my own. Just keep them busy between themselves, and I'll keep
on the horn over here.
Thanks for keeping me in the loop.
jason
Message from France to England
> Heh. What actually happened was, Russia told me *Germany*
> was pushing to get him to open North. Who knows what to
> believe, anyway. Russia's been alittle annoying too, lately.
>
Yes. I'm sure Germany would like to see your path as hampered as much as
he'd like to see Italy hamper mine. Good thing Austria is throwing a
wrench into that plan.
I think Russia is very worried about a hostile GAI. He will certainly be
frightened by the moves this season, but if we play it right, we can
hopefully calm him down, get him working against Germany, and still keep
Turkey from getting too friendly with him.
> I'm not worried about Italy, tactically. I think a move to
> PIE is seriously unlikely. I'm inclined to believe the TRI -
> VEN thing, it's making me laugh, I also think Austria is
> feeling the influence of Germany. That said, it looks like
> Germany may be keeping his anti-Russian opening a
> *secret* from Austria, which I hadn't really expected, which
> is fine too.
I think Germany's keeping it secret while doing everything possible to
ensure that Austria unwittingly cooperates. I'll bet we see two separate
Austrian bounces, thereby wasting the time of two of Germany's neighbors
-- Austria and Russia -- and keeping Italy from doing much of an
opening. Clever.
> I am very pleased overall with the way our diplomacy has gone
> this spring.
>
As am I. I'm hoping that Germany feels very confident in his ability to
play both sides of the board. We've got to make sure those feelings of
confidence continue.
More tomorrow. Let me know if you hear anything unexpected.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
>
> So I could believe two things: (1) That Andy wants revenge on
> Germany or
> (2) that Andy wants Germany sufficiently engaged that he can
> break the central triple. Both come from the same point of
> view. I tend to think it's the latter, and that if Germany
> does well (means, allies with any of us in the north) that
> Andy will settle for a triple he'd rather not be a part of.
>
Interesting take on the situation, and probably pretty accurate. So, as
long as Germany's isolated, the central triple will fail to form.
Have you tried to pry Austria out of Germany's tricky little grasp? I
don't think he's commited to an AG alliance, just manipulated. I get the
impression that the Germans are essentially stoking his paranoia.
What kind of things has Germany been saying to you? He sends the
occasional anti-English press to me, but I get the feeling that he's not
terribly concerned with me, maybe sees me as a situation to deal with
later.
Erik
Message from Russia to France
Honestly, I haven't been giving Austria enough of my attention. Germany's
manipulations distracted me. (Not a good excuse, but the truth
nonetheless). I've just started stepping up my press to Austria to try to
rectify this situation.
As far as Germany, he's been telling me not to attack Austria, and has
tried to get me to promise not to publicly (to A and I). Not terribly
surprising that he wants to help Austria, but he's really working hard to
make Austria feel comfortable. He's been very active in negotiating down
here, so if he's not active up there, it probably means he's distracted.
--- Tzarface
Message from Observer to Observer
Oscar Dijkhoff <dip@oehoeboeroe.nl> wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>> >>Italy gets it?
>> >
>> >Nah. It should go to Russia this time.
>>
>>Alright, but in C3, it has to be Turkey's, ok? That'd be a laugh :-)
>
>Do you have anything particular against Austria?
And the first shall be last. Austria should get it in C7 :-)
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
Message from Observer to Observer
USTX Diplomacy Judge <greg@spencersoft.com> wrote:
>Comments 2 Player Status
>-------------------------
>
>austria Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>england Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>france Expecting Moves Received Moves Wait All Orders are In
>germany Expecting Moves Wait
>italy Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>russia Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>turkey Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
WHOA! GREG, this is being sent to the Commentators list, rather than
the C2B list!
Better fix this soonest!!!!!!
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
Message from Austria to Russia
> Yes. I will also be moving to Bla, but as noted, expect that to bounce.
> Come Fall I expect we'll both be looking for our "standard" neutrals -- is
> that a reasonable assumption?
Yes, unless you have something special in mind?
> In Spring '02 we can look to really coordinate southwards.
>
> Earlier you mentioned that you were hoping Andy was going to Lepanto. Any
> sense whether that's going to actually happen? In the early going I would
> have guessed that he was going to be defensive (which makes sense given
> that you did tell me you were planning to move Tri-Ven) but he hasn't said
> much about it since an early message.
In a way, the Lepanto is a defensive maneuver,
so I guess he will open with one.
> I have no idea how things are going to go down in the north. GEF are all
> friendly sounding, but none of them have made any commitments that indicate
> which way they are leaning. Germany has offered Sweden if we work out Gal
> (as you suggested to him and you and I have agreed we will). But I get no
> sense of what their longer term leanings are. I get the sense that Germany
> is more willing than the rest to be a longer term ally -- given his
> "coordination efforts" -- but still don't know which way he's planning to
> jump. Maybe everyone is just playing "wait and see".
That's my guess as well. Everyone is playing it
safe and we may have to wait until 1902 to
really know what's happening.
> Anything else we should discuss or coordinate? Early on you said you didn't
> want to get into details just yet, and with that and my concern about
> Germany's message, I think I haven't spent enough time actually talking
> with you about us (rather than about Germany). We've still got some time
> before the turn, and I'm happy to discuss anything that needs attention.
I assure you that I don't feel you have neglected
me. Contrarily to me, you also have to think
about the north and with good relations between
us, this became your priority. Like I said
previously, I have no problem with your taking
care of the north, as long as you're also available
to take care of the south.
For the moment, I can't think of anything else to
discuss that isn't based on conjecture, so go
ahead and take all the time you need to improve
your position in the north. Anyway, once Turkey
is taken care of, the north will have to be your
path of expansion as part of the RA.
Philippe
Message from Austria to France
Hi Erik,
Sorry, but I can't provide what I don't have :-(
You will have to trust your instinct on that one.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Germany
OK. Thanks for the heads up.
Philippe
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> >But I don't understand - you are a fan of the Oakland Raiders but
> >not Oakland A's, and the San Francisco Giants but not the San
> >Francisco 49'ers?
>
> It's just a symptom of my larger emotional problems. :)
You know, you seem pretty together, for a Raiders fan. ;o)
> Short life story version relevant to this point: I was an army brat
> in my wee years, family moved to SF, and I watched my first football
> game. It was the Raiders vs. the Steelers. Kid-logic being what it
> is, I decided I liked the Raiders better because they had the cooler
> logo. I only later found that they were a local team. The year that
> happened makes me think that I must have been watching the game that
> ended with the Immaculate Reception, but I really don't remember the
> details that well.
This part I understand completely. I hope you rejoice with me when the
Steelers lose.
> I was much older when I first got interested in baseball, and by then
> we were established in SF. So I went with the Giants. I don't dislike
> the A's, but I'm a fair weather fan. I was a Niner's fan when they
> were a bad team, and was a big fan when they got Montana. Ironically
> as they got better (through the late 80's-early 90's) I got less and
> less supportive of them. Probably envious, if you recall the
> performance of the Raiders over that same time frame.
You did not say "Thank you for Sir Sidney Ponson." I don't know how a
person can root for a team - the A's - who had excellent seats available *at
game time yesterday* for Boston Red Sox fans walking up, to buy at the box
office. I heard a local radio personality say at five minutes to game time
yesterday he bought from the box office at the stadium 2 seats 15 rows up
from the 3d base bag. Unbelievable. Of course the Raiders have similar
problems, but not as bad.
> >I am closely familiar with some Raider frustration in recent
> >years,incidentally. I am from Baltimore. Glad to see Rich Gannon's
> >shoulder's recovered. . .
>
> More galling is that it was Shannon Sharpe who scored the crucial TD!
> I thought we were finally through with him when he left Denver. But
> don't worry, my frustration with Baltimore is way low on the list.
> I'm actually more upset about the "fumble that wasn't" from '77 when
> Denver beat the Raiders in the playoffs.
I am pleased to hear it, in the sense that I worry less about next time I
fly into Oakland. I hope the other members of the Raider Nation have put it
behind them too.
> At least in Baltimore we lost because we were outplayed. Now, mention
> "tuck", and we've got a whole other problem! :)
Yeah, that was something else. That should have been your year. . .
Any idea who we're waiting for? What's up with GAL?
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Any idea what we're waiting for?
*yawn*
Ben
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
Since Austria seems to have a relationship with Russia, as your e-mail
bait demonstrated, are you worried about the effectiveness of your initial
attack? Even if they're not committed to mutual defense, it's obviously
better for you (and the triple) if Austria's willing to at least look the
other way while you attack Russia.
Austria's been hesitant to get involved in any kind of joint attack
against Italy; I guess he and and Russia must be planning an attack on
Turkey. Given Turkey's non-communication, this isn't particularly
surprising. Still, I wish Austria could be more involved in helping out
our immediate attacks. If you've got any sort of relationship with him,
maybe you can get him out of Russia's camp and into ours.
Erik
Message from Observer to Observer
It seems to me that I am going to be unable to keep up with all the messages
and so far just trying to read all the press has limited utility for me.
Seeing that often there was a very low % of things commented on in the first
game, I think I am going to do the following..just follow one country.
I am going to pick Austria.
I will read all of Austria's press and then just skim the other's press or loook
specifically for things that Austria might like to know.
Then I will summarize and come up with comments from this.
I would suggest for those that don't have time to read all the press to do the
same thing and if you pick other countries, then we will have more coverage.
Andrew Albright
Message from France to Russia
>
> Honestly, I haven't been giving Austria enough of my attention.
> Germany's
> manipulations distracted me. (Not a good excuse, but the truth
> nonetheless). I've just started stepping up my press to Austria to try
> to
> rectify this situation.
In my experience, the Austrian's been a bit of a pain to work with. He has
certainly been less engaging that I would expect an Austrian player to be
of France. I'm hoping it's just first-turn paranoia. I have been driving
home the "sheesh, sure is rough to be stuck between Andy and Tony" point
to him in hopes that he'll start to re-think any trust that he's built for
those two. If GAI hasn't coallesced by now, we don't ever want it to.
> As far as Germany, he's been telling me not to attack Austria, and has
> tried to get me to promise not to publicly (to A and I). Not terribly
> surprising that he wants to help Austria, but he's really working hard
> to
> make Austria feel comfortable. He's been very active in negotiating down
> here, so if he's not active up there, it probably means he's distracted.
Good to hear. The less Germany worries about England and I, the better. I
know you've got a bounce planned with Turkey; do you have one planned with
Austria, too (sorry if you've told me before -- don't have my saved
messages here)? I thought I'd heard that bandied about earlier, but I'm
not sure if it was just a proposal or conjecture or rumor.
Erik
Message from France to Austria
>
> Sorry, but I can't provide what I don't have :-(
> You will have to trust your instinct on that one.
>
Good point. I guess at this point, there's just no telling what people are
up to, is there? Better to play a conservative, defensive approach for the
first turn and see where things end up in the fall. Also, when we're stuck
between Tony and Andy, and both of us are, we can pretty much assume that
one of them's got a trick up his sleeve, right?
Good luck with your opening moves. I'll let you know if I hear anything
else pertinent to your position.
Erik
Message from Austria to France
> Good point. I guess at this point, there's just no telling what people are
> up to, is there? Better to play a conservative, defensive approach for the
> first turn and see where things end up in the fall. Also, when we're stuck
> between Tony and Andy, and both of us are, we can pretty much assume that
> one of them's got a trick up his sleeve, right?
Actually, let's be positive and assume we have them surrounded instead ;-)
> Good luck with your opening moves. I'll let you know if I hear anything
> else pertinent to your position.
Thanks,
Philippe
Message from Germany to France
Will look into it. I was initially involed long ago in talking with AI but
they couldnt sort out the VEN bounce.
I havent spoken to him since. Will see whats happening.
Message from Germany to England
No Ben I can only assume that the eastern powers havent got their act sorted
out yet.
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
I'm risking a DMZ in Gal rather than a bounce. I'm not sure it's the
right way to go, but that's the current plan.
How about Bur? Do you have a bounce planned there? I should have
asked this earlier, because if you do it'd be an easier call to leave
Gal DMZed.
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> No Ben I can only assume that the eastern powers
> havent got their act sorted out yet.
Sigh. I suppose I knew that. Just bored. I guess it's too much to ask for S'01 to process before the deadline. . .
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
Do you mind if I ask, what did you decide to do, vis a vis Austria? I hear
he's been a pain in the behind for Italy, which may make him a good ally for
you. On the other hand, as far as I know he's being a pain in the butt for
you, too.
Just curious, as we wait for the moves to process.
Ben
Message from Germany to Germany
Well, I wasnt able to ensure that AI were on board. They probably have one
foot in the boat.
The EFG is a probability, I am sure England is willing.
Austria claiming there wont be bounce leeds me to believe that Russia will
be coming to SIL, he or someone has mentioned the push north to england.
If EG are JDPR players then I may find them pushing for me as soon as s1901
along with A or I.
I will try another round of talks and see what comes up.
Message from Germany to Russia
I hear you are not bouncing in GAL. I just thought that I would let you know
that due to lack of 3 way communication I have a gut feeling that AT are
allied. England has been informed of the suggested push north by Russia, so
be careful.
Message from Germany to Italy
So what is happening, I know France and Austria are talking. Have you heared
anything yet
Message from Germany to Turkey
It was nice knowing you ;-) good luck.
Message from Germany to Austria
Hmmm your name has popped up a few times, be careful. You heared anything
new?
Message from Italy to Germany
>
> So what is happening, I know France and Austria are talking. Have you heared
> anything yet
>
Not a thing, but if they get together I am not in good shape....
Message from Austria to Germany
> Hmmm your name has popped up a few times, be careful. You heared anything
> new?
I haven't heard anything special nor have I done anything special,
so could you enlighthen me? I would really appreciate knowing
what this name dropping is all about.
Philippe
Message from France to Russia
> How about Bur? Do you have a bounce planned there? I should have
> asked this earlier, because if you do it'd be an easier call to leave
> Gal DMZed.
It's been discussed. Germany's into it and I think assumes it's a go, but
I'd rather use the unit for actual movement. Austria's bouncing Italy, so
it stands to reason that he'd be fine with DMZ, too. In any case, if I
were you, I might cover with Mos - Ukr just to be safe. If Austria's
bouncing with Italy, it stands to reason that he's either headed for you
or for Turkey, and you might want to be prepared for either alternative.
Just my $.02, though.
Erik
Message from Germany to Austria
Well I have heared that turkey and russia are talking and that that spelt
trouble for you. I wasnt worried as this still means that aig are looking
strong if we stick together. I do find it a little strange that russia hasnt
got back to aig in one press.
There again maybe the RT was only dropped to cause confusion. How is it
between you and russia?
How is the relationship with Italy? The three of us havent spoken.
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
What are you guys hearing. I am hearing RT and ER. I also hear that AI are
doing ok. The last one is good news but have you heared rumors? How come we
havent heared from Russia in a global press to us? do we count him out?
We probably wont be getting down to businees in the spring due to the VEN
bounce but hopefully by fall we will all be on board.
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
>
> What are you guys hearing. I am hearing RT and ER. I also hear that AI are
> doing ok.
We are ok.
The last one is good news but have you heared rumors? How come we
> havent heared from Russia in a global press to us?
The rumours I have heard center around France and Austria jumping me.
I know they cant be true because of my relationship with GA.
do we count him out?
I think you should ask him.
> We probably wont be getting down to businees in the spring due to the VEN
> bounce but hopefully by fall we will all be on board.
Exactly.
Andy
Message from France to England
Ben:
Russia asked me point blank if Germany and I were bouncing in Burgundy. I
didn't want to lie, as we'll need Russia to go after Germany and apply
pressure when we attack from the west. I told him that Germany and I had
discussed it and that Germany was heavily in favor of it, but that I'd
rather not and was trying to talk Germany out of it. I also tried to steer
the discussion toward a defense against Austria, which I think would be
perfect for our plans -- Germany can still push up into Lvn and leave
Munich exposed, but Russia's not completely blindsided and still maintains
some trust in us.
That's the story if he comes around confirming it.
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
Sure enough, Germany came asking about the bounce in Burgundy. All of your
information bait is catching fish, Tony. I think our assault will go
splendidly.
Wish we knew what Turkey was up to, though.
Erik
Message from England to France and Germany
Tony -
> Sure enough, Germany came asking about the bounce in
> Burgundy. All of your
> information bait is catching fish, Tony. I think our assault will go
> splendidly.
Would you remind me again what we learn from all this, Tony?
> Wish we knew what Turkey was up to, though.
I have a press in to him & will let you guys know what he has in mind, when
I hear from him.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Russia asked me point blank if Germany and I were bouncing in
> Burgundy. I didn't want to lie, as we'll need Russia to go
> after Germany and apply pressure when we attack from the west.
I agree with your analysis.
> I told him that Germany and I had discussed it and that Germany
> was heavily in favor of it, but that I'd rather not and was
> trying to talk Germany out of it. I also tried to steer the
> discussion toward a defense against Austria, which I think
> would be perfect for our plans -- Germany can still push up
> into Lvn and leave Munich exposed, but Russia's not completely
> blindsided and still maintains some trust in us.
I think your answer was excellent & serves our purpose. Of course I do not
think we need a *strong* Russia, with whom we would need to share dots.
Really all we need is a Russia who does not collapse like a house of cards.
. .
> That's the story if he comes around confirming it.
Thanks. I am alittle surprised noone's asked me about BEL, but that's the
truth of it.
Ben
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> > What are you guys hearing. I am hearing RT and ER. I also hear that AI are
> > doing ok.
>
> We are ok.
>
> The last one is good news but have you heared rumors? How come we
> > havent heared from Russia in a global press to us?
>
> The rumours I have heard center around France and Austria jumping me.
>
> I know they cant be true because of my relationship with GA.
There's no need to worry on my account. I'm committed to AGI
and even if I weren't, I can't see the point of attacking Italy right
off the bat.
> do we count him out?
>
> I think you should ask him.
I think Russia was a bit put off by the joint press, but even after,
I still got a good feeling from his press. Of course, if there's
rumours of RT, it could all just be a setup and I would need you
to bounce Sweden like we said.
> > We probably wont be getting down to businees in the spring due to the VEN
> > bounce but hopefully by fall we will all be on board.
>
> Exactly.
Yes, I look forward to finally know what's really happening
around the board.
Philippe
Message from Austria to England
Hi Ben,
I'm hearing rumours of RT, and even ER.
Do you know what this is all about?
Philippe
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
> > The rumours I have heard center around France and Austria jumping me.
> >
> > I know they cant be true because of my relationship with GA.
>
> There's no need to worry on my account. I'm committed to AGI
> and even if I weren't, I can't see the point of attacking Italy right
> off the bat.
Well....thats what you are doing.
And the specific rumour I have heard is that France is moving MAR - PIE
> Yes, I look forward to finally know what's really happening
> around the board.
As do I.
Andy
Message from Germany to England and France
Well I am not sure who erik meant when he said germany came asking about the
bounce in BUR.
I am assuming he means austria or italy.
Italy thinks AF are after him. I think we are the only ones who seem to have
a solid agreement.
The only thing I dont hear of is the ER relation. Maybe you are buttering
him up ;-)
Message from Germany to Russia
Well how are things going, Austria informs me of a no bounce in GAL. Was
wondering what you have to say?
Message from France to England and Germany
> Well I am not sure who erik meant when he said germany came asking about
> the
> bounce in BUR.
> I am assuming he means austria or italy.
Sorry, typo. It was actually *Russia* that asked.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
As I said, I'm looking more at working with England over Germany in the
near term, but when it comes time to change courses, a lot will hinge on
the situation between you and him. What has your relationship been like
with him to date?
If Germany's the eventual target, I don't think you have to worry about
him attack you up north, but I haven't really been privvy to any
discussions between you, whether through you or him. I know you've been
talking, though. Can I assume that you're building a strong enough rapport
with him that he will leave Scandanavia exposed to you at some point?
I know that's all a little vague, but I'm trying to peer a few years into
the future.
Erik
Message from Russia to Germany
>I hear you are not bouncing in GAL.
Yes, we're back to the DMZ.
>I just thought that I would let you know
>that due to lack of 3 way communication I have a gut feeling that AT are
>allied. England has been informed of the suggested push north by Russia, so
>be careful.
I am concerned about AT as well. Neither A or T have said anything
that implies they are coming after me, but of course, they wouldn't.
Because of that I'll want to keep my units around to defend the
borders should Austria take Gal, Turkey take Arm or a combination of
the two. That also means I won't be going north this season.
Which is just as well, I think. If AT doesn't come to be, I'll be in
a good position to work with one or the other of them, and possibly
build in the north to work on England (if I get builds). I assume
from your earlier messages that if I have the choice you would prefer
me to work with Austria as opposed to Turkey. For now I'll be seeing
how they move before getting too set one way or the other in any case.
Let me know if your preferences change (or if I'm wrong about them),
as I'll definitely keep them in mind -- it'll be easier for us to
cooperate in the north if things in the south are not worrying to you.
--- Tzarface
Message from Germany to England and France
Well if it was Russia then that may point to a possible Russian move on me
or england. That would at worst make me bounce in either sil or pru. I will
still be able to bounce him in Sweden so we would still come out on top.
Its not that Russia is hoping for a GR against England which would be the
case if I was against france. So I wonder what and more important with whom
he will share this information.
An anti English or anti german opening by russia does not effect our plans.
If at worst he pushes mos to stp then england is still strong enough to take
norway with 2 units.
I will mention this inquiry into BUR to Russia to see how he reacts ;-)
Message from Germany to Russia
I hear you were inquiring about my bounce in BUR. Ask and I will tell you my
moves.
Message from Germany to France
Hmmm if it was Russia then this may point to an RE alliance. What do you
think? I will inform russia that i will open kie -den (request of austria),
mun - bur (to an agreed bounce) and ber - kie. A pretty standard opening.
Message from Germany to all
OK, so here it is. MUN - BUR (agreed bounce with France), KIE - DEN (on
request), BER - KIE. Pretty standard opening I would say. Anyone else like
to share?
Message from Germany to Russia
Our press just crossed. I am just wondering who mentioned the push north to
England. It could have only been Italy, Austria or yourself. I dont see
Italy doing it. That would only leave Austria and you. You would only do it
if you were after me with France or England. Something at this stage which i
doubt. That leaves Austria. If it was him then he mentioned it for a reason.
I will only state what I stated from the beginning. I have never seen
germany move on russia or vice versa.
My main concern is being on the right side on E or F. One of the three
always loses out to the other two.
It was Austria who requested my move to DEN to bounce you if needed. I wont
be moving on SIL, PRU or SWE no matter what you hear. A GR war would spell
disaster for me.
By fall I will be letting you into Sweden and no doubt something will happen
down south.
Message from France to Germany
>
> Hmmm if it was Russia then this may point to an RE alliance. What do you
> think? I will inform russia that i will open kie -den (request of
> austria),
> mun - bur (to an agreed bounce) and ber - kie. A pretty standard
> opening.
>
I don't doubt that RE are on good speaking terms, but I can't imagine that
England would jeopardize his against against Russia that early. He's
probably just laying the groundwork for a later turn.
I wouldn't ask Russia about that Burgundy inquiry, if I were you. It will
tell him that we're sharing that kind of information (who asked whom
about) very quickly, and certainly put him on alert. It would be wiser to
let sleeping dogs lie.
Erik
Message from France to England
What's up with that broadcast? Is he a.) essentially allowing himself to
be viewed as a liar by every person on the board or b.) really planning
that set of moves and setting us up as patsies (and with an army in
Burgundy, to boot)? This doesn't bode well. We need to decide whether or
not to reverse course and order an all-out assault in the first turn.
Erik
Message from Germany to France
Russia just contacted me. He is a little weary of an AT alliance. Something
I doubt as Turkey hardly speaks. I have broadcasted my moves ;-) just to see
what happens.
Englans is safe anyway as long as you dont go to ENG. As you said we can
always double back if need be in the fall. The opening does allow the
covering of all home sc's.
Message from France to Germany
> I doubt as Turkey hardly speaks. I have broadcasted my moves ;-) just to
> see
> what happens.
Yes, I noticed. Kind of shreds your credibility after this opening though,
doesn't it? If we need to double back on England, say, aren't you worried
about a lack of trust on A/I/R's part?
Erik
Message from Germany to Italy
Its just hit me are you sure about Austria?
What is to stop him moving to TYR and having two units on VEN?
Did you agree to hold in VEN or bounce him in TRI?
Maybe ROM - APU as a back up is wise. If the 3 of us are together by fall
then the fleet can always take TUN. This would allow an easy fleet build to
head west along with ven - pie. I prefer that move in the spring but that
would mean rom - ven to bounce with tri. That would mean nap - tys to convoy
to tun. A little awkward, just a thought though onvie - tyr. He says he has
a dmz in gal. Then where is vie going? is it going to bud?
Maybe you should insist on a bounce in tyr. This still allows him to move
tri - ven.
Message from Germany to France
Nahhhh. It never was to be. Just have to sow some doubt in their minds. I
usually findt that when I play a listed names game then I usually find all 6
coming after me. The real diplomacy wont start until the fall.
As for shreading credibility I recall the last comment game. All three
neighbours of england lied remember ;-)
We tend to talk the most so hopefully EG are set for a long relation. Thats
more than anyone can hope for after the spring of 1901.
IA are a little worried about each other, so is rusia regarding AT. That
just leaves the three of us to work things out which we have. I may have it
all wrong but as I said the real diplomacy wont start until the fall.
Initially I asked Italy to move on you and Russia to move on ENgland, just
standard diplomacy reducing any risk of an EF against me. In the meantime I
try to make friends with at least one of you. Its england I have the most
worries about. He seems new and fresh but the ER is a little worrying.
Personally I think Russia will come after me with or without austrias or
italys help.
If worst comes to the worst let two strong neighbours bearing down on you
come to a head to head around you then play one out against the other. There
is always one greedier than the other.
I have gone back down to one sc many times and still survived into a draw
;-)
Announce some moves or at least the bounce in BUR just to see what happens.
Full open press sometimes leads to interesting developments, especially near
a deadline !
Message from Italy to Germany
>
> Its just hit me are you sure about Austria?
Hell no.
> What is to stop him moving to TYR and having two units on VEN?
Nothing, and if the French go to Piedmont, they can force Venice, even if
I go to Apulia from Rome.
> Did you agree to hold in VEN or bounce him in TRI?
He is attacking Venice from Trieste, I have to hold
> Maybe ROM - APU as a back up is wise. If the 3 of us are together by fall
> then the fleet can always take TUN.
Right.
This would allow an easy fleet build to
> head west along with ven - pie. I prefer that move in the spring but that
> would mean rom - ven to bounce with tri. That would mean nap - tys to convoy
> to tun. A little awkward, just a thought though onvie - tyr. He says he has
> a dmz in gal. Then where is vie going? is it going to bud?
> Maybe you should insist on a bounce in tyr. This still allows him to move
> tri - ven.
He has refused every other option I have put forward to him.
If you want to understand the history I have with the French player...just
look at the game sete on USVG.....the setup will be quite familiar, he has
already told me that anything that even looks in the slightest way
offensive towards him will be met with all his units.
This is why I am so guarded....
Message from Germany to France
>We tend to talk the most so hopefully EG are set for a long relation.>
Hmm fat fingers and nearing bed time, that was ment to be FG ;-)>
Message from Germany to Italy
Hmmm interesting. I have never let past experiences effect a new game. I
always follow the board.
But i did find austria's demands a little far fetched. You should at least
move ven - tri to bounce.
I dont see him moving to adr and then push bud - tri but at least moving to
tri is the same as holding ven.
This would leave tyr open if i were hostile. Why not insist on a bounce in
tyr? this also takes care of the tri - ven.
He does seem paranoid about tri and an italian stab. The french hasnt
mentioned austria at all.
I dont think they are allied. Well if you really want to be safe order ven -
pie and rom - ven. If i was allied with france against you then he would be
moving to pie and I would be moving to tri.
I just wish we could have gotten a clear commitment from austria.
Message from Germany to Italy
>If i was allied with france against you then he would be
moving to pie and I would be moving to tri.>
Its late and bed time. I ment I would be moving to tyr not tri.
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
Philippe,
I am having one of those really bad gut feelings about this first turn...
how about if we bounce in Tyrolia and Venice.
Is that ok with you??
Andy
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> I am having one of those really bad gut feelings about this first turn...
>
> how about if we bounce in Tyrolia and Venice.
>
> Is that ok with you??
To be frank, I would rather not but will feel obligated to if
you insist. We are allies and I will do what I can to ease
your worries; but with the threat of getting bounced in
Sweden, I believe Russia will abstain from moving against
me right away and this give me the opportunity of going for
Vie-Bud-ser & Bud-Ser-gre for a shot at two builds or at
least make sure Turkey won't.
Philippe.
P.-S. In case you wonder, no I don't trust Russia more then
Italy in 1901; but contrarily to Italy, he can be denied a build
for even attempting to attack Austria. That's why I'm still
going with Tri-Ven.
Message from Russia to Germany
>I hear you were inquiring about my bounce in BUR. Ask and I will tell you my
>moves.
The question (are you bouncing in Bur) really just came up on the
spur of the moment. I only asked because France had asked right
before whether I was going to bounce in Gal, and it seemed only fair
to ask about Bur in return. I really should have asked you the same
question, but when France said you had asked for a bounce, I couldn't
see any reason why he would lie, and so never bothered to follow up
with you.
>Our press just crossed. I am just wondering who mentioned the push north to
>England. It could have only been Italy, Austria or yourself. I dont see
>Italy doing it. That would only leave Austria and you.
Sorry to rob the mystery from the whole thing, but I talked in some
detail with England about the concept of a northern opening. England
asked me if I was going to be opening north, and I told him that I
would not. I told him that was in part because I've had multiple
people ask whether I was considering a northern opening, and I
thought that meant an AT v R was forming.
The point of the statement was to make it clear that no discussions
about a northern opening were going forward. Since -- as I said in my
last press to you -- I've decided not to open north, I didn't see any
problem with being open about it. I thought that this statement plus
my concern about a possible AT, would actually give England more
flexibility to work with you.
To be honest, I didn't think that the fact that people had talked to
me about a northern opening *in concept* would be a big deal -- I
generally assume that my neighbors discuss lots of options, at least
casually, before the first moves. I certainly never said that
anything was planned or coordination.
>You would only do it if you were after me with France or England.
>Something at this stage which i doubt.
I am firmly focused in the south, and on the potential of combatting
an AT. I don't want to see you go down, because you're my only buffer
if that happens. Italy can hound Austria, but you are the only one
with units that can support me.
>That leaves Austria. If it was him then he mentioned it for a reason.
Obviously I cannot speak as to what Austria may have told England. If
we assume an AT alliance is happening, then perhaps he wants England
pressuring me in the north? But again, it could just be what I said.
>My main concern is being on the right side on E or F. One of the three
>always loses out to the other two.
I've gotten the distinct impression from Ben that he's going to play
neutrally early and see how things go. If that's true, you still have
options with him. France I don't have a clear read on, but would
guess he's going to be flexible as well. If there's anything I can do
to help with either E or F, let me know. Especially with E, because
now I feel like I may have caused problems for you!
>I wont be moving on SIL, PRU or SWE no matter what you hear. A GR
>war would spell disaster for me.
And I won't be moving on Sil or Pru, because a GR war is just as bad
for me. Reading this I realize I don't remember accepting your
request for DMZ Boh, so I'll also say yes here. (I never had a
problem with it, but I don't know that I ever agreed to it either.
I'm quite happy with a Boh DMZ, and have no expectation of getting
that far for a while in any case.
Again, I'm sorry if my interactions with England and France have made
you nervous about our relationship. Obviously that was not the intent
in either case.
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> I'm hearing rumours of RT, and even ER.
> Do you know what this is all about?
Well, I think you would know more about RT then I would. As you know I
encouraged Turkey to work with you against Russia. Earlier I sent him a
note asking what he decided but he has not responded yet. I had hoped for
an AT and I still do, but I have no special knowledge one way or the other.
As to an ER, we have made the usual arrangements for the northern
provinces, and we have discussed Germany alittle bit. Nothing exciting - I
have found our Russian to be a tight-lipped fellow.
What of GAL? If you are indeed worried about an RT then I imagine you will
be going there, whether you tell Russia ahead of time or not. . .
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> What's up with that broadcast? Is he a.) essentially allowing himself to
> be viewed as a liar by every person on the board or b.) really planning
> that set of moves and setting us up as patsies (and with an army in
> Burgundy, to boot)? This doesn't bode well. We need to decide whether or
> not to reverse course and order an all-out assault in the first turn.
Good questions. I can only assume he is lying to everyone else. Because
if he was planning on attacking you, he would want my help, and he hasn't
said anything to me. Take a deep breath - things are still going well.
Even if he were to attack you, your position would be solid, defensively,
and god knows I don't want him around, so he'd have both of us as enemies
and nothing to show for it, positionally.
I'm setting wait again. I will write back soon - I'm going fishing for
information. Be patient. ;-)
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Russian move on Germany or me says one thing to me, and that begins with a
J and rhymes with puggernaut.
Ben
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
>
> > I am having one of those really bad gut feelings about this first turn...
> >
> > how about if we bounce in Tyrolia and Venice.
> >
> > Is that ok with you??
>
> To be frank,
to be frank, I dont see any reason for you to need to hedgehog, but you
are.
I would rather not but will feel obligated to if
> you insist. We are allies and I will do what I can to ease
> your worries; but with the threat of getting bounced in
> Sweden, I believe Russia will abstain from moving against
> me right away and this give me the opportunity of going for
> Vie-Bud-ser & Bud-Ser-gre for a shot at two builds or at
> least make sure Turkey won't.
No.....no need to....I have to trust you at some level.
thanks for the quick response.
Andy
Message from Italy to Turkey
Howdy
You need to bounce the Austrian out of Greece in the fall. He is holding
me in check so he wont have a supported attack on Greece.
Can you do that?
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy
I received some press from Austria that makes him out to be more uncertain
than we thought. I think in time he will want to work with you.
I am also hearing that you are worried about an attack from France.
Erik and I are mindful of the danger posed by Tony. I - we - have a plan.
But if you go to PIE then Erik's head will explode and that would be bad.
If you insist on going to PIE I can work with that. But I need to know
ahead of time.
Let me know. Ok?
Ben
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
Galacia will be open if you want it.
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> But if you go to PIE then Erik's head will explode and that would be bad.
> If you insist on going to PIE I can work with that. But I need to know
> ahead of time.
There is no way I am going to Piedmont....if Erik does I am screwed, blued
and tatttooed......but I dont suspect he wants to.
What is your plan for Tony
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> > But if you go to PIE then Erik's head will explode and that would be
bad.
> > If you insist on going to PIE I can work with that. But I need to know
> > ahead of time.
>
> There is no way I am going to Piedmont....if Erik does I am screwed, blued
> and tatttooed......but I dont suspect he wants to.
>
> What is your plan for Tony
I don't want to be in a position where it screws up & I have to wonder. If
you know what I mean.
So I'm not going to tell you. I think you understand.
And I was serious about Austria. If you keep whispering in his ear you may
persuade him of an RT - which I am inclined to think is real anyway - and
if you want I will try to get him to go for GRE instead of TRI - VEN. Let
me know if that's what you want; I don't want to interfere with your play
in the East.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> > What is your plan for Tony
> I don't want to be in a position where it screws up & I have to wonder. If
> you know what I mean.
I understand completely.
>
> And I was serious about Austria. If you keep whispering in his ear you may
> persuade him of an RT - which I am inclined to think is real anyway - and
> if you want I will try to get him to go for GRE instead of TRI - VEN. Let
> me know if that's what you want; I don't want to interfere with your play
> in the East.
He is already going for greece....he is not going to Galacia at all....he
is moving everything south so that he can hedgehog me and still get two
builds.
Message from Turkey to England
Good to hear from you.
The plan, which I trustyou'll keep to yourself, is to attack Russia off
the bat with Austria, then take out Austria with Italy. Hopefully, I'll
end up with 8-10 centers, and one flank completely anchored on the edge
of the board.
He pressed me quite strongly for a plan, so I'll work with him until I
need to go through him.
jason
Message from Turkey to Germany
Thanks, take care yourself.
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
Thanks for your note.
Don't worry, Austria won't get Greece in the fall. I'll guarantee that.
Germany sent me a note basically saying "you're toast." I assume he
thinks AIR is coming for me. Any reason he might think this?
jason
Message from Turkey to Austria
Hey,
Germany just sent me a note basically saying that I'm dead meat. I
assume he thinks AIR (or some portion) are coming for me. Any reason he
might think that?
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason,
> Thanks for your note.
>
> Don't worry, Austria won't get Greece in the fall. I'll guarantee that.
>
> Germany sent me a note basically saying "you're toast." I assume he
> thinks AIR is coming for me. Any reason he might think this?
He seems to think that I am working with Austria...which I have done my
best to make him believe.
He is deadmeat.
Message from England to Italy
Andy
> > > What is your plan for Tony
> > I don't want to be in a position where it screws up & I have to wonder.
If
> > you know what I mean.
>
> I understand completely.
I knew you would. Last favor on this point, and I figure you understood
this too - let Erik carry on with you as he has been. Humor him.
> > And I was serious about Austria. If you keep whispering in his ear you
may
> > persuade him of an RT - which I am inclined to think is real anyway -
and
> > if you want I will try to get him to go for GRE instead of TRI - VEN.
Let
> > me know if that's what you want; I don't want to interfere with your
play
> > in the East.
>
> He is already going for greece....he is not going to Galacia at all....he
> is moving everything south so that he can hedgehog me and still get two
> builds.
He's nuts. Do you think I'm wrong about an RT? He's trying to get you
both killed. I just suggested he go to GAL - I'll press him harder on the
point when I get a chance.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
I just heard you are ordering TRI - VEN. I want to urge you to think twice
about this, if it's true. I have already written the Observers that I
think there is a Juggernaut forming & now I'm warning you. If I am right
then you will very much need a good Italian ally. If I am wrong - which I
doubt - then you will have gained an Italian ally at no cost to yourself.
You know, you have told Andy you will be moving TRI - VEN. It doesn't mean
you now have to *do* it, whether you tell him in advance or not.
Your call.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> > I understand completely.
> I knew you would. Last favor on this point, and I figure you understood
> this too - let Erik carry on with you as he has been. Humor him.
I dont understand what you mean.
> > > And I was serious about Austria. If you keep whispering in his ear you
> may
> > > persuade him of an RT - which I am inclined to think is real anyway -
> and
> > > if you want I will try to get him to go for GRE instead of TRI - VEN.
> Let
> > > me know if that's what you want; I don't want to interfere with your
> play
> > > in the East.
> >
> > He is already going for greece....he is not going to Galacia at all....he
> > is moving everything south so that he can hedgehog me and still get two
> > builds.
> He's nuts. Do you think I'm wrong about an RT? He's trying to get you
> both killed. I just suggested he go to GAL - I'll press him harder on the
> point when I get a chance.
I know that, but we shall see.
Message from England to Turkey
Sultan -
> The plan, which I trustyou'll keep to yourself, is to attack Russia off
> the bat with Austria, then take out Austria with Italy. Hopefully, I'll
> end up with 8-10 centers, and one flank completely anchored on the edge
> of the board.
I am ecstatic about your plan. I could not, as England, ask for more from
Turkey. I will certainly keep it to myself and aid you where I can.
> He pressed me quite strongly for a plan, so I'll work with him until I
> need to go through him.
Outstanding. Just let me know what to do.
Ben
Message from England to Italy
> > > I understand completely.
> > I knew you would. Last favor on this point, and I figure you understood
> > this too - let Erik carry on with you as he has been. Humor him.
>
> I dont understand what you mean.
Just don't let him know that you & I had even this much of a conversation
on the subject of Tony. That's all.
Now go to sleep.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
Now I just got *another* note - this one from Turkey - & I'm not so sure
about the RT. I just can't get a fix on Russia, I guess. Anyway Turkey
told me awhile ago that you were pressing him to get an AT going against
Russia, & he still seems uncertain about Russia, so I hope you can persuade
him to work with you.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
I've been fishing & I'm satisfied everything is in order. I've
corresponded with some of the eastern powers - received recent notes from
Austria, Turkey, & Italy - & I like what I'm hearing. Let's stick with
Plan A - Western Triple S'01, Germany stab F'01.
Ok?
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
From what I hear from Italy, I'm guessing MAR - PIE will succeed.
Ben
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Germany just sent me a note basically saying that I'm dead meat. I
> assume he thinks AIR (or some portion) are coming for me. Any reason he
> might think that?
I think he's having fun with us. He told me of rumours of Juggernaut.
For what it's worth, I didn't tell anyone about our plan and if you
didn't, then the rest of the board is in for a big surprise (I know that
you told England a bit about us, but I'm hoping you didn't share too
much).
I'm glad that you did ask though, because I was going to ask you
about the Juggernaut after having ask what other heard; and if you
don't mind I would appreciate your forwarding what Germany sent
you.
If others are trying to play mind game with us, I suggest we take
notice and prepare ourselves to return the favor down the road ;-)
I'm sure an opportunity to do so will present itselft.
Philippe
Message from Austria to England
Hi Ben,
> note asking what he decided but he has not responded yet. I had hoped for
> an AT and I still do, but I have no special knowledge one way or the other.
> about this, if it's true. I have already written the Observers that I
> think there is a Juggernaut forming & now I'm warning you. If I am right
> Now I just got *another* note - this one from Turkey - & I'm not so sure
> about the RT. I just can't get a fix on Russia, I guess. Anyway Turkey
> told me awhile ago that you were pressing him to get an AT going against
> Russia, & he still seems uncertain about Russia, so I hope you can persuade
> him to work with you.
Don't take it the wrong way, but you sent me 3 messages with
three different take on the situation. What's up with that? Your
first message indicate you have no way of knowing one way
or the other, the second one you're sure of the Juggernaut and
the last one you think there's a chance of AT.
Now, would it be possible to know your source(s) and what
they told you? This way, I would be in a better position to read
the situation.
Thanks,
Philippe
Message from Turkey to Austria
Good to hear from you. I mentioned a little bit to England, but our main
plan is safe.
Don't worry, there's no juggernaut. RT works well for R, not so much for
T. All Germany said to me was "it was nice knowing you." Not exactly
insightful. :-)
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Glad to hear we're on the same page. For right now, just make sure FG
don't take you out. :-) I'll also need you to go through Nwy to StP to
finish off Russia, and possibly get me into Mos. After that, we should
have a good anchor around three edges of the board.
jason
Message from Turkey to Turkey
This should be my last note before the turn runs. Everything should be
in place. Russia goes down first, followed by Austria (with Germany
somewhere in there), and then Italy. It may be a 3-way, a 2-way, or a
solo, but however you count it, if I can get as far as Ser-Bud-War-Mos,
I'm likely to be included in any result.
Not sure what Germany's game is. He claims I'm dead, Italy claims he's
dead. Either way, I'm happy with my opening position. This is probably
the furthest out I've planned in a while.
Let's run that turn!
jason
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
I 100% understand your question. I got a bunch of press one after the
other & I will be glad to lay it out for you.
First of all I kept getting mysterious press from Russia that vaguely
suggested that he was planning on opening North. And I hadn't heard from
Turkey for several days & when he'd last written he seemed pretty unsure of
his intentions. So, I took a guess that there was an RT forming. It was
based pretty much on Turkish silence and those odd messages from Russia,
absolutely nothing firm.
That was my situation when I first wrote you this evening (my time):
> Well, I think you would know more about RT then I would.
I was not sure, but I was worried enough to encourage you to go to GAL:
> What of GAL? If you are indeed worried about an RT then I imagine you will
> be going there, whether you tell Russia ahead of time or not. . .
Then later I received a press from Italy, telling me you had told him you'd
ordered TRI - VEN. At this point I guessed that if this was getting around
then an RT was much *more* likely, as conflict between Austria and Italy is
an incentive for an RT alliance, so my earlier guess was reinfoced:
> I just heard you are ordering TRI - VEN. I want to urge you to think twice
> about this, if it's true. I have already written the Observers that I
> think there is a Juggernaut forming & now I'm warning you.
Though I was still not 100% sure:
> If I am wrong - which I doubt - then you will have gained an Italian ally
> at no cost to yourself.
*Then* I got a press from Turkey which seemed to show some distrust of
Russia. I think he was being sincere, though as usual I could be wrong.
So I regretted my earlier messages & tried to straighten it out with that
last one:
> Now I just got *another* note - this one from Turkey - & I'm not so sure
> about the RT. I just can't get a fix on Russia, I guess.
Looking back at my reasoning, I think I put too much stock in the messages
I'd been getting from Russia, saying things like, he will want to build
fleets in STP, and so forth, which I should not have worried about so much.
Which leads me back to where I am now, which is my original position (yes
I've gone in one big circle) which is just to try to get you what you
originally wanted, which is an AT. So I hope it is still possible but I
leave it in your hands.
I am so sorry about all the presses, one after the other, but I kept
hearing from this power & that power, and I thought you should know.
Anyway I hope I answered all your questions but please let me know if I did
not.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
I sent Austria a note saying I'd heard from you & you'd shown some distrust
of Russia. That's all I said about the note from you, but I think it may
come back around, so I wanted you to know what I'd written.
Ben
Message from France to England
> I've been fishing & I'm satisfied everything is in order. I've
> corresponded with some of the eastern powers - received recent notes
> from
> Austria, Turkey, & Italy - & I like what I'm hearing. Let's stick with
> Plan A - Western Triple S'01, Germany stab F'01.
>
I agree. Just wanted to pose an alternative scenario so we're not rushing
into this. All signs point to a successful invasion of Piedmont. Besides,
I get the impression that Tony already assumes that nobody trusts him.
Erik
Message from England to England
Things were going so well & I hope I didn't gum everything up by meddling
in the ART triangle. But how was I supposed to know about the secret IT?
Time to cross my fingers.
Ben
Message from France to Germany
> Nahhhh. It never was to be. Just have to sow some doubt in their minds.
> I
> usually findt that when I play a listed names game then I usually find
> all 6
> coming after me. The real diplomacy wont start until the fall.
> As for shreading credibility I recall the last comment game. All three
> neighbours of england lied remember ;-)
Hey, I'm not saying you shouldn't lie. Just want to make sure what you're
doing. I think, as you do, that there's enough suspicion in this game
between the eastern powers that a bold broadcast lie isn't going to make
much of a difference in the long run.
> Its england I have the
> most
> worries about. He seems new and fresh but the ER is a little worrying.
> Personally I think Russia will come after me with or without austrias or
> italys help.
Once again, Austria and Turkey are the key to preventing any kind of
threat from ER. As long as Russia has other headaches to deal with, he'll
be less inclined to lift much of a finger to help England, especially
once you've called off or halted your attack (after taking Warsaw, of
course). I'm not too worried about ER, though we clearly want to keep an
eye out for it.
I think a German move on you signals confidence in his relationship with
England, but if England moves north as planned, how long will that
confidence last? I see a lot of eastern powers getting very flustered by
our opening.
Erik
Message from Austria to England
> I am so sorry about all the presses, one after the other, but I kept
> hearing from this power & that power, and I thought you should know.
No don't be, I'm really gratefull that you took the time to
keep me updated. It's just that I needed more info to
make sense of everything you said.
> Anyway I hope I answered all your questions but please let me know if I did
> not.
Yes you did and I thank you.
Philippe.
P.-S. If it doesn't interfere with your plan, could you open
with Edi-Nwg, Lon-Nth & Lvp-Yor? This way, you not
only make sure of Norway, but you will be in position to
convoy to it if necessary.
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Good to hear from you. I mentioned a little bit to England, but our main
> plan is safe.
Good to hear.
> Don't worry, there's no juggernaut. RT works well for R, not so much for
> T. All Germany said to me was "it was nice knowing you." Not exactly
> insightful. :-)
OK. Let him have is fun, we will have ours later on ;-)
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> > Anyway I hope I answered all your questions but please let me know if I
did
> > not.
>
> Yes you did and I thank you.
You are kind.
> P.-S. If it doesn't interfere with your plan, could you open
> with Edi-Nwg, Lon-Nth & Lvp-Yor? This way, you not
> only make sure of Norway, but you will be in position to
> convoy to it if necessary.
It warms the marrow of my bones to hear you ask this question.
I will open as you wish. And noone will know you asked.
Ben
Message from Austria to Austria
Well, it seem people have too much time on their hand
and I wish they would simply turned in their order so
we can be done with it. I'm more the straightforward
type of guy and playing mind game isn't my forte. Now
that I have done all I wanted for the moment, the longer
we wait the more chances that everything I'm trying to
achieve will get screwed up by others.
Wich bring me to something I have a hard time believing.
From what I'm getting, I seem to have a better
relationship with Erik, Ben & Jason then either Andy,
Tony or Eric with a c do with them. Can this really be true?
If it is, it will make dealing with the pro alot easier.
I should also mention the incident with Andy. When
Erik suggested attacking Andy right away, I could have
told Andy but I didn't because I was afraid this would
be use against me. Also, if Erik is still a bit angry with
Andy for what happened in the previous game, I was ok
with Andy being kept in the dark about it until it could be
made to work for me. Unfortunately, Erik's animosity
wasn't kept secret for long and this as forced me to be
more open about my upcoming moves. I'm sure Andy
and Eric with a c are comparing note and not knowing
where Vie was going must have been a problem for
them. Eric subtlely mention going for our "normal" neutral
while Andy requested a bounce over Tyr. Now that I told
Andy about trying for Greece, both of them should feel
more at ease; but doing so was risky as they now know
all my moves. If they want me out, their job is going to be
alot easier now that they know that Ven-Tyr-Vie
supported from Gal will work.
Message from Russia to Austria
> > Yes. I will also be moving to Bla, but as noted, expect that to bounce.
> > Come Fall I expect we'll both be looking for our "standard" neutrals -- is
> > that a reasonable assumption?
>
>Yes, unless you have something special in mind?
No, but I wanted to make it clear I'm still available. Especially given
that I thought that I hadn't been adequately focused on RA issues.
>I assure you that I don't feel you have neglected
>me.
Very good to hear.
>For the moment, I can't think of anything else to
>discuss that isn't based on conjecture, so go
>ahead and take all the time you need to improve
>your position in the north. Anyway, once Turkey
>is taken care of, the north will have to be your
>path of expansion as part of the RA.
Yup. And that is indeed what I'm hoping to settle quickly. If what I'm
hearing about AI relations (much of which is from you directly) I expect
that you are anxious to get established and turn on Italy too. I think the
biggest challenge will be taking out Turkey and still leaving us a unit
blend that (1) allows us to cooperate with a comfort zone to turn in
opposite directions and (2) allows you enough fleets to really press Italy
(though I guess you could get help on that from from France). But as you
say, at this point trying to solve the problem would be conjecture. We'll
discuss in more detail as we go along.
>Philippe
Uh-oh. I just realized I owe you apologies for another reason: I've been
referring to you as "Phillipe". I will make a point of getting the spelling
correct in the future!
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Italy
Hey Andy,
Thanks for the heads up. For now, I've agreed to a DMZ in Gal. Since
Germany has made Sweden conditional on not violating that DMZ, I won't be
violating it in Spring 01. But I do intend to keep my forces focused south
so that I am able to go against A or T, whichever we choose.
I'm not too worried about deciding on targeting A or T yet, and it sounded
like you are not either. Since we haven't yet seen who's going to stick
their neck out, I think it will pay to be flexible in the very short term.
Once we see how they set up, we can choose a specific target later.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Sultan Jason,
It's been a while so I'm dropping a line. At this point, I've agreed to a
DMZ in Gal with Austria, as Germany made honoring the DMZ a requirement for
getting Swe in Fall. Other than that, there's not a lot going on.
Let me know if there's anything you'd like to go over.
--- Tzarface
Message from Observer to Observer
So far I would guess it is EF, IG and AT with Russia being the odd man out.
Anyone think differently?
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
Hi all,
Ok, I have now tried to read most of the stuff that's in. My
appreciation for the observers in 'comments' went up to the skies during
this process.
I know four players in this game, Erik of France, Andy of Italy and Eric
of Russia from 'comments'. And I have played against Tony Vernon. Of
these, I believe Tony is the jolly joker and the rest rightfully fears
his skills. I found him an extremely laid back player bythe way who
will not be much bothered if he is reduced to two units at ay point (but
he probably will not). Andy Bartalone is a very _dangerous_ player, and
his play in 'comments' was really outstanding. On the other hand I am
curious to see how far he gets in this game with his two-line presses,
it is not a clear-cut winning strategy IMHO. Erik and Eric I rate about
equal, both are quite dilligent players but vulnerable to fatal actions
if they make mistakes (which I expect they will). BTW I am playing
England against Eric's Turkey in a full-press game.
Austria:
I very much like the Austrian diplomacy so far. He shows that he
cannot easily be fooled, check out his last "Don't take it the wrong
way, but you sent me 3 messages with three different take on the
situation. What's up with that?" press to England. He hit the nail on
the head with identifying Andy Italy as the major threat against his
country and his press demonstrates to his neighbors that they should
expect him to be reasonable but determined when it comes to his
country's interest. And we all know that Italy wanted to start this
game full steam indeed, probably picking up 2 centers at least, this
probably will not happen now. I expect Tri-Ven, Bud-Ser, Vie-Bud.
England:
He seems to play it safe and of course the western triple start is
excellent for England as he can be everywhere he wants to without the
need for explanation. If it happens then FI war, GR war and probably FG
war start before he has to violently commit himself. Well, IIRC he told
us his moves (Lon-NTH, Edi-NWG, Lvp-Yor). It is interesting to see how
much the EF relationship is galvanized by the fear from Tony in the
middle.
France:
Erik is doing a great job and the AI problem works well for him. He
knows that Andy has to be kept on a short leash and he is right. He
also made a good job within the western triangle showing that if it
splits, then EG is not an obvious way forward.
Germany:
Tony just keeps asking and asking. This is actually the way I like to
play 1901, he is right to say that S1901-promises are not taken to heart
and he freely gives any prize for bits of information. Some players of
course have realized by now that his questions like "your name pops up
these days...?" have to be taken with a grain of salt, but it still
works very well as everybody speaks about the topics he throws in. The
3-way press on both sides (FGR and AIG) are quite interesting though and
I am curious to see if he gets away with it. One thing to note is that
there is an active AIG channel - a sign of the central alliance, but the
content of the messages do not back it up at all. Predictions: none.
I am pretty sure that Tony does not know either and he already made his
case that whatever he does, nobody should take seriously :-)
Italy:
I think that Andy is in trouble if the EF friendship continues to bloom,
Germany turns on Russia and Austria sides Turkey, all possible.
Fortunately it is not fatal for Italy but I agree with Andy that a
jumpstart for Italy is almost required for doing well. The positive
thing on his side is Turkey's apparent lack of experience comparable to
the others. If I were him, I would put much more effort into securing a
place for myself in the tip of Turkey's heart. Predictions: Nap-ION,
Rom-Apu, Ven H.
Russia:
I think Eric is doing ok but much depends on what Germany actually
moves. I do not recall an agreement on Sweden, has there been such a
thing? Also I am missing his efforts to generate distrust between the
rest (like Germany), he will not get far if his neighbors enjoy peace on
all other fronts. By now he should be spreading the rumor about the
western triple, just like others do about the juggernaut (yes, I know
that he might not know it but that hardly matters :-)). And similarly,
explaining to England that France is a born stabber (quoting 'comments',
for example - it hardly matters that it is not true, etc...).
Predictions: Sev-BLA, War-Ukr, Mos hold.
Turkey:
My very early guess is that Jason is the odd man out on the long run.
His talk about rolling over Russia is quite naive. Also the AT
diplomacy (not very fat) is entirely dominated by Austria. He has
written Russia altogether four messages, with absolutely no content. He
does not seem to know much about the others and does not ask, so he is
likely not have much (or any) diplomatic influence. That said, Jason
is playing Turkey and that might just be enough for a good result!
Tamas
Message from Observer to Observer
Oscar Dijkhoff wrote:
>So far I would guess it is EF, IG and AT with Russia being the odd man out.
>Anyone think differently?
>
>
I do not see AT as an alliance. Austria promises whatever he needs to
to assure Turkey about his goodwill, so that he 1. gets Greece 2. Turkey
attacks Russia. If I was playing Austria I would do literally anything
for getting a Turkish attack on Russia.
That said, Russia is indeed a little left out of the party and RT is
quite unlikely. But he still has chances of getting Austria on side,
and I am sure that Tony will give assistance to Russia if things turn
bad because his balance-of-power requires that.
I agree with EF being pretty tied together. But expect Tony explaining
to England how France's aggression on Italy gives him an excellent
opportunity to grab the Atlantic. And given that Tony is not yet an
ally of anyone, whoever gets him has a big advantage, something which
will make both E and F think.
IG to me looks quite similar to IR in 'comments'. Two top-class players
teaming up to principle the rest of the board, but my guess is that it
will have the same fate too. Both of them need to play the neighborhood
first and foremost and effective IG cooperation might take the back-seat.
Tamas
Message from Observer to Observer
Tamas Hauer wrote:
> I do not see AT as an alliance.
I mainly meant S01 so alliance is indeed a bit too strong a word. I would
however not at all be surprised to see AT run through. Especially when
Austria calls the shots why would Philipe not keep a good thing going? Also
Philipe's remark about not liking the mind games fits with going with Jason
who might not be active enough but certainly is straightforward.
> Austria promises whatever he needs
> to to assure Turkey about his goodwill, so that he 1. gets Greece 2.
> Turkey attacks Russia. If I was playing Austria I would do
> literally anything for getting a Turkish attack on Russia.
Obviously
> That said, Russia is indeed a little left out of the party and RT is
> quite unlikely. But he still has chances of getting Austria on side,
> and I am sure that Tony will give assistance to Russia if things
> turn bad because his balance-of-power requires that.
Do you mean balance of power between all seven (why would anyone want this)
then yes Tony has to support Russia. Do you mean balance of power between
those that come out on top into the mid-game then Tony just needs to make
sure he grows as fast as AT. If AT succeeds he can trust on the instabillity
of this alliance and get A vs. T going. No sweat.
> IG to me looks quite similar to IR in 'comments'. Two top-class
> players teaming up to principle the rest of the board, but my guess
> is that it will have the same fate too. Both of them need to play
> the neighborhood first and foremost and effective IG cooperation
> might take the back-seat.
Correct, but if EF stab G, AT move on R and IG are left hanging in the middle
we might see IG relations improve and R will get involved as well. Thus the
JDPR players will get exactly what they did not want.
Oscar
Message from Observer to Observer
Oscar Dijkhoff wrote:
>>That said, Russia is indeed a little left out of the party and RT is
>>quite unlikely. But he still has chances of getting Austria on side,
>> and I am sure that Tony will give assistance to Russia if things
>>turn bad because his balance-of-power requires that.
>>
>>
>
>Do you mean balance of power between all seven (why would anyone want this)
>then yes Tony has to support Russia. Do you mean balance of power between
>those that come out on top into the mid-game then Tony just needs to make
>sure he grows as fast as AT. If AT succeeds he can trust on the instabillity
>of this alliance and get A vs. T going. No sweat.
>
Germany's main interest is in the western triangle and even if it was
not the case, he must have substantial control over what's happening
there. A quick kill of Russia happening before the west is resolved in
Germany's favor is very bad news for Germany mostly because England has
a free ride in Scandinavia. What I meant is balance of power on the
east. If AT come on top of Russia and Germany matches their speed that
is half success. If Germany finds himself winning the western battle
while ART are still roughly same size with units mixed and fighting
eternally, that is much better I think.
That said, if Germany goes against Russia guns blazing that is of course
a completely different story, but I do not find it likely as yet.
Tamas
Message from Germany to England
hehehehe I must pay more attention to names, I see you are GM-ing the game LORAX in which I play Turkey. Now that is a tough game. Just thought it funny enough to mention. It goes to prove that I never pay attention to names and past experiences with players.
Message from Italy to Russia
> I'm not too worried about deciding on targeting A or T yet, and it sounded
> like you are not either. Since we haven't yet seen who's going to stick
> their neck out, I think it will pay to be flexible in the very short term.
> Once we see how they set up, we can choose a specific target later.
I agree completely
Message from Turkey to Russia
Good to hear from you. I think we're set for the spring. Hopefully
everyone will get their orders in and get things going.
jason
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> hehehehe I must pay more attention to names, I see you are
> GM-ing the game LORAX in which I play Turkey. Now that is a
> tough game.
You know, when we started in C2, I said to myself, Tony's address is
*really* familiar. Where do I know it from. . . I must have looked at
every other game I'm gm'ing. I just overlooked Lorax, I guess. In the end
I told myself I'd seen your name on VG or r.g.d. a few times.
Makes me regret ignoring all the partial press. . .
;-)
Ben
Message from Observer to Observer
Mike Dowling wrote:
> USTX Diplomacy Judge <greg@spencersoft.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Comments 2 Player Status
>>-------------------------
>>
>>austria Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>>england Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>>france Expecting Moves Received Moves Wait All Orders are In
>>germany Expecting Moves Wait
>>italy Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>>russia Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>>turkey Expecting Moves Received Moves All Orders are In
>
>
>
> WHOA! GREG, this is being sent to the Commentators list, rather than
> the C2B list!
>
>
> Better fix this soonest!!!!!!
Actually, it's going to C2B. Check the archives on the web and you can
confirm that.
I just forgot to change the "To:" address in the headers. However,
mail servers don't use that to determine where to send mail.
Greg
Message from Austria to Austria
Addendum:
I did a quick check of 'comments' to find out the source
of Erik's animosity toward Andy and there's none. He
was eliminated because he didn't have enough time to
play the game, something to remember, and his comments
as an observer weren't against Andy. I probably just read
too much into it and he's only warry of a good player.
That being said, my quick scan paid up. I came upon a
small discussion about press forwarding wich included
Erik and Andy. Erik doesn't do it and doesn't trust the
content of forwarded press; while Andy does and will
trust press forwarded to him if the content look genuine.
That's VERY good to know as I'm going with Andy as
a long term ally (unless and until I can become a naval
power).
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> thanks for the quick response.
No problem, when I can I do; but it's not
always possible given my internet access.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Russia
> Uh-oh. I just realized I owe you apologies for another reason: I've been
> referring to you as "Phillipe". I will make a point of getting the spelling
> correct in the future!
No problem, it's not the worst that I saw. Once, in highschool,
someone wrote fillipe on the black board, and it really was a
mistake! Can't think of a way to spell it worst then that ;-)
Philippe
Message to all
> OK, so here it is. MUN - BUR (agreed bounce with France), KIE - DEN (on
> request), BER - KIE. Pretty standard opening I would say. Anyone else like
> to share?
Can we expect you to keep this up?
Message from England to England
Ok, modified predictions:
I still think Austria and Russia will bounce in Galicia. But now I think
they will be simultaneously violating a dmz. I also now think that Austria
will open traditionally with TRI - ALB and BUD - SER, though I think Andy is
sincerely persuaded of TRI - VEN.
Obviously Turkey will have to shuffle around a bit. So my new predictions
are:
Austria:
F TRI - ALB
A BUD - SER
A VIE - GAL
Turkey:
A CON - BUL
A SMY - ARM
F ANK - BLA
Otherwise they remain the same. The unit I am most unsure of is not
coincidentally Russian: A MOS. Could easily go to LVN, if he thinks there
is an RT.
Also the press I sent to Germany about recognizing his e-mail but being
unable to find it in my games was true.
Ben
Message from Germany to all
<Can we expect you to keep this up?>
Who are 'we'? some of you can some of you cant. Those that expect will
receive ;-)
So, no one else willing to lie.. I mean share their opening moves?
Turkey; just to save on press and answer in this one, the answer is NO.
I will not be asking France and Italy to convoy me to SMY nor will I aid in
any EFI convoy of a Russian unit from STP to CON.
Message from Russia to Austria
>No problem, it's not the worst that I saw. Once, in highschool,
>someone wrote fillipe on the black board, and it really was a
>mistake! Can't think of a way to spell it worst then that ;-)
Well, I considered this in some detail. After much deliberation I
think the absolute worst I can come up with is "Fylleap". :)
--- Tzarface the Ever Helpful
Message from England to all
> I will not be asking France and Italy to convoy me to SMY nor
> will I aid in any EFI convoy of a Russian unit from STP to CON.
My suggestion was for a convoy of a Russian army from NAF to STP, via the
Eastern Med. Please read your press more carefully.
My opening moves are:
F STP/sc - BOT
A MOS - WAR
A WAR - MOS
F SEV - ION
This way I maximize my defensive posture and bounce Italy from the Ionian.
Ben
Message from Russia to Russia
Dear Diary,
Note before the move deadline.
* I'm really not expecting to see anything exciting from G or A for
the Spring moves.
* T is still a mystery.
* My moves have been in without wait for a few days now. Mos is
holding. Because G is not expected to threaten me, Mos H gives me
more flexibility to defend if T goes to Arm, and is just as good as A
War if Austria goes into Gal.
* I'm a little concerned about A long term, because he seems very
blaze (relaxed, not on fire) about the discussion of hitting Turkey,
especially given his concern about Andy, which would make RI
something else to fear. I don't feel like I'm making much progress
there, since one of G or A needs to fall for me to have a stable
position.
* Either Germany reacted quickly to my concerns, or I just overreacted to him.
* EF sounds like it's happening, though from what I'm hearing from F,
I'm wondering if Andy isn't trying to oversell it. While I still
don't mind seeing an EF, I probably should try to leave Germany some
room to maneuver in case I need a GR somewhere down the line. Then
again, him being in trouble could make Philippe feel more secure with
RA. Hard one to gauge. (This is why I tend to be reactionary in the
early game).
* I realized shortly after sending the press to Ben that naming G
specifically was a potential mistake. I was in a snit (due to outside
of game issues) and didn't think it through before sending. When
Germany raised the issue I thought about trying to deny I said
anything, but in the end decided it would be better to just end the
suspicion. The last thing I want is Tony out investigating me,
because bound to hear bad things about me if he's listening for them,
whether it's the thing I did or something else. It's a shame it
happened at the same time I asked Erik about Bur, since I'd think
that makes it look more suspicious. Hopefully I can rebuild that
bridge (if damaged) quickly, especially if the EF forms.
* Overall, feeling a little calmer at this point. Nothing is
obviously horrid right now. Not clear that anything is settled
anywhere, and I am a paranoid pessimist at heart. But think I can
count on F and I for the short term, and hope that gets me through
the game opening. I am a little worried that when I become
unavailable next week that I may lose valuable negotiation mind share.
--- Eric
Message from Observer to Observer
S1901M
10/08/2003
1. England - 3
2. France - 3
3. Austria - 3
4. Germany - 3
5. Italy - 3
6. Russia - 4
7. Turkey - 3
1. & 2. England/France
I think they've established a good rapport with each other, and with
Germany. As Germany points out, the Szykman opening leaves England
less committed than the other. That's why he gets the nod.
3. Austria
Things look pretty unsettled in the east. However, I think that
Austria comes out on top there thanks to his (apparently) successful
manipulation of Turkey.
4. Germany
Andy makes it sound like Germany is the best player in the world. So
far, I haven't seen that. I think he's going along with the Szykman
opening. If so, EF may go ahead and stab before the end of the year.
If the hype is deserved, then we should get to see Germany turn around
the attack the way France did last game.
5. Italy
I haven't seen Italy make much happen yet. He's tried to get Russia to
fight Austria, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
6. Russia
No clear allies and a couple of anti-Russian alliances in the
formation, leaves Russia in early trouble.
7. Turkey
Given the level of press in this game, his voice is getting drowned
out by everyone else's. In a more normal game, his diplomacy may have
been sufficient, but here it's too little and not nearly proactive
enough. That's not all bad though, once he gets to see the archives, I
think he'll probably learn quite a bit from it.
When Austria asked Turkey to move to Armenia, I think Turkey should
have pointed out that that would commit him against Russia, while
leaving Austria free to claim innocence and to change sides. He should
have asked for some sort of concession in return.
Greg
Austria: Army Budapest → Serbia
Austria: Fleet Trieste → Venice (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Vienna → Budapest
England: Fleet Edinburgh → Norwegian Sea
England: Army Liverpool → Yorkshire
England: Fleet London → North Sea
France: Fleet Brest → Mid-Atlantic Ocean
France: Army Marseilles → Piedmont
France: Army Paris → Gascony
Germany: Army Berlin → Kiel
Germany: Fleet Kiel → Denmark
Germany: Army Munich → Ruhr
Italy: Fleet Naples → Ionian Sea
Italy: Army Rome → Apulia
Italy: Army Venice HOLD
Russia: Army Moscow HOLD
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol → Black Sea (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (south coast) → Gulf of Bothnia
Russia: Army Warsaw → Ukraine
Turkey: Fleet Ankara → Black Sea (*bounce*)
Turkey: Army Constantinople → Bulgaria
Turkey: Army Smyrna → Armenia
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