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England: Builds 1 unit
France: Builds 1 unit
Italy: Removes 1 unit
Russia: Builds 1 unit
Turkey: Removes 1 unit
Message from England to France
Erik -
France: Army Burgundy -> Marseilles.
France: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Rome.
France: Fleet Tunis -> Ionian Sea. (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Western Mediterranean -> Tyrrhenian Sea.
France: Army Brest -> Gascony.
France: Fleet Gulf of Lyon -> Tuscany.
This is all fine with me. I think the timing was good enough - Andy will be yelling, but we should be fine. Still I wonder why you moved BUR - MAR, when you could have held in BUR and *built* in MAR. . .
You cleared BRE. I can't imagine why in a jillion years you would want to build a fleet there, but if you do, let me know in advance, so we can discuss it.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Told you he was going to attack me.
So...are you going to carry through on your threat.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
If I'd been coordinating with him, the moves would have been better, and he would have taken MUN; I don't understand his moves, but they are enough to signal the end. . .
Perhaps we are winding down in time for VGFP 2004?
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> Andy -
> If I'd been coordinating with him, the moves would have been better,
and he would have taken MUN; I don't understand his moves, but they are
enough to signal the end. . .
>
I know.....if you were in on this, I would be dead, and no longer
dangerous....but Im not.
Are you going to carry through on your threat to him.
> Perhaps we are winding down in time for VGFP 2004?
Perhaps....but I really...really ....really do want to make him pay for a
really stupid stab.
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Told you he was going to attack me.
And I knew it would be soon. But that was last phase, and I told you then he wouldn't do it. Then. I don't think he would have been willing to attack TYS - ION, because in the end, you know he wanted to come get you. Perhaps your challenge was to figure out how to survive with a French F TYS?
> So...are you going to carry through on your threat.
Threat? Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations or something?
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Perhaps....but I really...really ....really do want to make him pay for a
> really stupid stab.
You are a romantic at heart - perhaps you would not have minded so much, if it had been at all elegant. And you would rather disembowel yourself than lose.
But what would you have me do - and why?
Ben
Message from Italy to Russia
Well...you finally convinced him.
What do you want me to keep.
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> > Told you he was going to attack me.
> And I knew it would be soon. But that was last phase, and I told you
then he wouldn't do it. Then. I don't think he would have been willing
to attack TYS - ION, because in the end, you know he wanted to come get
you. Perhaps your challenge was to figure out how to survive with a
French F TYS?
>
I have no idea why he wouldnt be willing to go TYS - ION....its sets him
up to take even more of my dots, but the always short-sighted Erik Diehn
cant see that.
> > So...are you going to carry through on your threat.
> Threat? Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations or something?
Uhhhh..Nooooooooo
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> I have no idea why he wouldnt be willing to go
> TYS - ION....its sets him up to take even more
> of my dots, but the always short-sighted Erik Diehn
> cant see that.
Curiously, this is what I told him, when I advised him to take your support. . .
> > > So...are you going to carry through on your threat.
> > Threat? Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations or something?
> Uhhhh..Nooooooooo
I don't have my press archives anymore - neither here nor at home. I don't remember what I promised specifically. What do you want me to do, and why?
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
I imagine you will be building A PAR - it will get you into BUR, after all.
Ben
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
Now we have alot to talk about.
I see a whole bunch of ways to get you a bunch of dots, potentially all
that you need.
Andy
Message from Italy to England
> > I have no idea why he wouldnt be willing to go
> > TYS - ION....its sets him up to take even more
> > of my dots, but the always short-sighted Erik Diehn
> > cant see that.
> Curiously, this is what I told him, when I advised him to take your
support. . .
>
Especially since he could have just dropped another fleet into the TYS
behind it.
> > > > So...are you going to carry through on your threat.
> > > Threat? Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations or something?
> > Uhhhh..Nooooooooo
> I don't have my press archives anymore - neither here nor at home. I
don't remember what I promised specifically. What do you want me to do,
and why?
That you would attack him. Not really more specific than that....
I recommend dropping the fleet in NTH into the Channel in the spring see
what he does.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> > > I have no idea why he wouldnt be willing to go
> > > TYS - ION....its sets him up to take even more
> > > of my dots, but the always short-sighted Erik Diehn
> > > cant see that.
> > Curiously, this is what I told him, when I advised him to take your
> > support. . .
> Especially since he could have just dropped another fleet into the TYS
> behind it.
In the immortal words of Clint Eastwood - "Deserve's [very slight pause] got nothing to do with it." Not that Erik is Clint, any more than you are Gene Hackman.
Andy, pretend you are England, and work on this question:
> I recommend dropping the fleet in NTH into the Channel
> in the spring see what he does.
Why?
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> Andy, pretend you are England, and work on this question:
>
> > I recommend dropping the fleet in NTH into the Channel
> > in the spring see what he does.
>
> Why?
Because it will scare the piss out of him. And one of the things that I
have found to be indelibly true in this game is that you MUST be willing
to carry out your threats. Because if you garner a reputation as a person
that will;
1. Not carry out a threat if someone does something to you.
2. Not carry out a threat if someone does something to an ally.
3. Or if someone does something that you have specifically discussed the
ramifications for.
You will get pushed around and walked all over pretty much 24x7, with
people splitting hairs....
Especially in the FtF world...noone that knows me, does this to me,
because I have a reputation for dealing with such daliances in a clear cut
and swift fashion.
That is why.
Andy
Message from France to France
D'oh!
MUNich, not MARseilles. Ack.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
I appreciate the support, but I am apparently king of the misorder these
days. Bur - Mar was supposed to be Bur - Mun.
In any case, I'd like to think you see this as a good opportunity to drop
the hammer on Andy and whittle us down to three. Any thoughts on builds?
Erik
Message from France to England
> This is all fine with me. I think the timing was good enough - Andy
> will be yelling, but we should be fine. Still I wonder why you moved
> BUR - MAR, when you could have held in BUR and *built* in MAR. . .
Another stupid misorder. I've been averaging about five hours a night of
sleep for the past week, with about an hour and half between Sunday and
Monday. That was supposed to be Bur - Mun, not Bur - Mar. Note the Russian
support for the move that didn't happen. I even double-checked the orders
twice, and didn't see it. Mar became Mun in my sleep-deprived brain.
In any case, with your army in Kiel, we're in pretty good shape vis-a-vis
Munich.
I'll be building A Par, in all likelihood. I had hoped for F Mar, but I
think I'll be okay towing the Med line with what I've got.
Erik
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
Well, his move of Bur-Mar is sure odd! He tells me it's a misorder, and I
tend to believe it.
Hmm. I'm doing a quick look at the board, and the difficulty is getting my
units into and perhaps a little past the boot without you losing all of your
units.
I would guess that Erik will order Par-Bur and Mar-Pie. Ben will probably
support the former. If Erik attacks you in Nap, then Ion-Tys might make the
most sense along with an order of a convoy to Apu (either Alb-Ion-Apu or
Alb-Adr-Apu) It either takes Tys or (more likely) saves Nap for you. If we
end up with you in Ven and Nap with me Apu and Ion, we can start pressing
the boot.
I will say this, though: I'm not sure how we get me a 17th center, let alone
an 18th (my current holdings plus Italy is 16). Either I try for Pie or I
take Mun, is how it appears to me, and even if I take Mun, I'm not sure how I
hold it. I'd be interested to hear your take on that.
And any suggestions on builds?
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
> Well, his move of Bur-Mar is sure odd! He tells me it's a misorder, and I
> tend to believe it.
I think he just fucked up....
>
> Hmm. I'm doing a quick look at the board, and the difficulty is getting my
> units into and perhaps a little past the boot without you losing all of your
> units.
>
You can go past me, without taking my dots...its not that hard, the best
way to keep me alive is to support me into other dots, and then take mine
later, when its safe and has a good goal to it...like soloing.
> I would guess that Erik will order Par-Bur and Mar-Pie.
How do you know he will build an army in Paris.
Ben will probably
> support the former.
Maybe, maybe not....who knows.
I am working on him to at least scare Erik, which would give us plenty of
time to get you to 18.
If Erik attacks you in Nap, then Ion-Tys might make the
> most sense along with an order of a convoy to Apu (either Alb-Ion-Apu or
> Alb-Adr-Apu)
This isnt a bad idea at all. Because a second army on the boot would help
in alot of ways....
It either takes Tys or (more likely) saves Nap for you. If we
> end up with you in Ven and Nap with me Apu and Ion, we can start pressing
> the boot.
The boot is mostly mine. You dont need to take it yet. Lets get you
positioned much better first.
Im not saying NOT to take it, just not yet.
> I will say this, though: I'm not sure how we get me a 17th center, let alone
> an 18th (my current holdings plus Italy is 16).
Munich is 17, Berlin is 18.
Either I try for Pie or I
> take Mun, is how it appears to me, and even if I take Mun, I'm not sure how I
> hold it.
No.
Spring...you support me to Berlin with 2. I will be asking Ben to support
me with 2, so it should work.
As well, I am telling Ben that I am supporting TYR - PIE, but I dont
expect you to do it.
I will support VEN - ROM, you move to PIE without support, and we pop the
fleet in Rome. He uses Tus to support MAR - PIE, and you cut TYS, naples
is safe and there is an army in Apulia...so even if it all bounces, you
get Rome in the fall.
> And any suggestions on builds?
Build an army in Warsaw or a fleet in SEV, I think you need the army more
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
Can I get 2 supports for Munich. He can get 4 on it if you count cutting
Berlin.
Eric has asked me to support him to Piedmont, and I am seriously
considering it.
Whats the good word from your neck of the woods.
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Can I get 2 supports for Munich. He can get 4 on it if you count cutting
> Berlin.
Sure thing.
> Eric has asked me to support him to Piedmont, and I am seriously
> considering it.
I wouldn't blame you. Of course I'm not sure what good it does Eric - I
wonder whether he's planning something else & is just trying to pin down
your units. Where does he go from PIE? ROM? NAP? What good do those
centers do him? Just thinking out loud.
> Whats the good word from your neck of the woods.
Undecided. I wish I had my press archive. . . I'm building A LON, anyway.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> Andy -
> > Can I get 2 supports for Munich. He can get 4 on it if you count cutting
> > Berlin.
> Sure thing.
Thank you.
> > Eric has asked me to support him to Piedmont, and I am seriously
> > considering it.
> I wouldn't blame you. Of course I'm not sure what good it does Eric - I
> wonder whether he's planning something else & is just trying to pin down
> your units. Where does he go from PIE? ROM? NAP? What good do those
> centers do him? Just thinking out loud.
I have no idea, it looks like you can stop him. I will be long dead at
that point likely.
> > Whats the good word from your neck of the woods.
> Undecided. I wish I had my press archive. . . I'm building A LON, anyway.
>
No prob....have you heard from Erik...I have sent him 3 emails with no
response.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> > > Can I get 2 supports for Munich. He can get 4 on it if you count
cutting
> > > Berlin.
> > Sure thing.
>
> Thank you.
Ya.
> I have no idea, it looks like you can stop him. I will be long dead at
> that point likely.
Hm. You strike me as someone who would have gotten the movie reference in
my earlier press - you did see Unforgiven, right?
> No prob....have you heard from Erik...I have sent him 3 emails with no
> response.
If he writes you: What do you think he will write. Will it matter.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Another stupid misorder. I've been averaging about five hours a night of
> sleep for the past week, with about an hour and half between Sunday and
> Monday. That was supposed to be Bur - Mun, not Bur - Mar. Note the Russian
> support for the move that didn't happen. I even double-checked the orders
> twice, and didn't see it. Mar became Mun in my sleep-deprived brain.
So bizarre, and yet still the simplest explanation. Let us make the third
time the charm! And when we get to the stalemate line - please be more
careful. ;o)
> In any case, with your army in Kiel, we're in pretty good shape vis-a-vis
> Munich.
Ya. Andy asked me to support him there, so I will.
> I'll be building A Par, in all likelihood. I had hoped for F Mar, but I
> think I'll be okay towing the Med line with what I've got.
Yes, I think so. The defensive line looking most likely for you is
MAR/LYO/WES/NAF/TUN, which will leave you with one more unit: A BUR. Check
out http://devel.diplom.org/Online/StalematesAtoY/western.htm, position 5.
If you lose ROM you will therefore likely be disbanding an army but we can
cross that bridge when we come to it.
I believe an A PAR is best for now, to force BUR in the spring, with GAS s
PAR - BUR. I do not think you need to be in MUN - it's no big deal either
way.
Ok, we are in lock step the rest of the way. As far as I'm concerned, we
are in the slow march to the 3WD now.
Thoughts?
Ben
Message from Russia to Italy
> > I would guess that Erik will order Par-Bur and Mar-Pie.
>
>How do you know he will build an army in Paris.
Sorry, typo. I meant Gas-Bur.
The Mun idea never occurred to me, because it never occurred to me that Ben
and Erik would expect that you wouldn't be trying to throw now. But I
haven't said anything to either of them and don't see any reason too.
Your ideas make tons of sense, and in fact go along with my general
conservative nature. :)
My only problem is: where do you disband? If I follow:
>I will support VEN - ROM, you move to PIE without support, and we pop the
>fleet in Rome. He uses Tus to support MAR - PIE, and you cut TYS, naples
>is safe and there is an army in Apulia...so even if it all bounces, you
>get Rome in the fall.
This uses Ven, Nap and Adr (Ion is moving so cannot convoy). Added to
Mun-Ber, we're one unit ahead of reality. I think we need to choose between
tapping Tys and convoying. Shifting Ven to Apu and me moving into Ven would
work for a year, but if we don't accomplish everything by Fall, then you
are down a unit sooner than we want you to be. Alternately, I could convoy
to Apu with Ion and you could make a 50-50 bet as to whether to order
Ven-Rom (Nap S) or Nap-Rom (Ven S).
In the north, should I move into Mun behind you? At first I thought yes,
but if Erik ends up in Pie then he can cut support. Assuming FA Bur, EA
Ruh, EA Kie, EF Bal, that leaves me with Boh as the mover to Mun. If I end
up there, then I've got only one support (F Bal cuts Ber, A Pie cuts Tyl).
Might make more sense to leave Mun open, then support Tyl-Mun with Boh and
Sil.
Anyway, a lot will depend on how you think Erik will move. I can offer to
support him to Nap, which might give us a sense of what he's planning,
though he may not really tell me what's up.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
>I appreciate the support, but I am apparently king of the misorder these
>days. Bur - Mar was supposed to be Bur - Mun.
I tried twice and still he rebukes me. *sniff*. No big deal, not like I had
a lot that I was waiting to do with those units.
>In any case, I'd like to think you see this as a good opportunity to drop
>the hammer on Andy and whittle us down to three. Any thoughts on builds?
I think I need another army to make a full northern line, so A War is
likely for me. For you I think you need to protect your flank. With my help
you can mop up Andy pretty quickly. While it's unlikely Ben will really
attack you, better safe than sorry. To me that means F Bre, but that's much
easier for me to say from here. It *is* the logic I'm using in choosing A
War (to try and get a completely defensible line).
Good job keeping Ben from coming to MAO though. I'm quite impressed. I was
pretty certain I had the situation pegged. Either I was way off base, or
you did a better job of negotiating than Andy.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
So, does this count as close to Andy, or do you want to work on a two way?
I'm assuming not, but it never hurts to ask.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to Russia
> > > I would guess that Erik will order Par-Bur and Mar-Pie.
> >
> >How do you know he will build an army in Paris.
>
> Sorry, typo. I meant Gas-Bur.
no problem
>
> The Mun idea never occurred to me, because it never occurred to me that Ben
> and Erik would expect that you wouldn't be trying to throw now. But I
> haven't said anything to either of them and don't see any reason too.
>
I have already secured 2 supports for Munich, other than Berlin....Kiel
and Ruh.
Its safe to leave it open.
> Your ideas make tons of sense, and in fact go along with my general
> conservative nature. :)
You have to be alittle conservative when you are committing subterfuge.
> My only problem is: where do you disband? If I follow:
>
> >I will support VEN - ROM, you move to PIE without support, and we pop the
> >fleet in Rome. He uses Tus to support MAR - PIE, and you cut TYS, naples
> >is safe and there is an army in Apulia...so even if it all bounces, you
> >get Rome in the fall.
>
> This uses Ven, Nap and Adr (Ion is moving so cannot convoy).
I disband Adr. I will explain later.
Added to
> Mun-Ber, we're one unit ahead of reality. I think we need to choose between
> tapping Tys and convoying.
Yes and no. ALB - APU, ION convoys, VEN - ROM.
Promise him support into Naples, then make the excuse that you thought he
meant in the fall, it doesnt matter if he believes you or not, we only
need him to believe for the spring.
Then in the fall, 2 supports for NAP - ROM and ION - NAP behind it....I
might get a build out of this, but you will have the position you need.
I dont want to seem like I am decieving you, I know what I am asking.
But he is likely to use 3 to support Rome, and if so, its just a big
bounce but you then have position. APU can support Naples while Naples
supports ION - TYS...and then he is DONE.
Do you understand what I am getting at.
> In the north, should I move into Mun behind you?
No..its safe.
> but if Erik ends up in Pie then he can cut support.
I am going to send a note to Ben telling him I am NOT supporting you PIE,
but I am trying for Rome, which will get passed on to Erik, and he will
use Tuscany to support Rome, while expecting your support into Naples.
Mar and Tyr bounce in Pie and we are in business.
> Anyway, a lot will depend on how you think Erik will move. I can offer to
> support him to Nap, which might give us a sense of what he's planning,
> though he may not really tell me what's up.
Do that, and convoy ALB - APU regardless.
Are you with me on all this.
Andy
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
I forgot to ask about coordination. I assume you'll want support into Mun.
Do you want support into Nap, too?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
> > Your ideas make tons of sense, and in fact go along with my general
> > conservative nature. :)
>
>You have to be alittle conservative when you are committing subterfuge.
Hmm. Perhaps that's an insight into my personality? :)
> > This uses Ven, Nap and Adr (Ion is moving so cannot convoy).
>
>I disband Adr. I will explain later.
Ok.
> > Added to
> > Mun-Ber, we're one unit ahead of reality. I think we need to choose between
> > tapping Tys and convoying.
>
>Yes and no. ALB - APU, ION convoys, VEN - ROM.
>
>Promise him support into Naples, then make the excuse that you thought he
>meant in the fall, it doesnt matter if he believes you or not, we only
>need him to believe for the spring.
Makes sense.
>Then in the fall, 2 supports for NAP - ROM and ION - NAP behind it....I
>might get a build out of this, but you will have the position you need.
>I dont want to seem like I am decieving you, I know what I am asking.
No, I'm not concerned about your motives here. This is a completely
different situation than those last two seasons of friction.
>But he is likely to use 3 to support Rome, and if so, its just a big
>bounce but you then have position. APU can support Naples while Naples
>supports ION - TYS...and then he is DONE.
>
>Do you understand what I am getting at.
Yes.
> > In the north, should I move into Mun behind you?
>
>No..its safe.
That's what I wanted to hear. As noted, I had kind of come to that
conclusion anyway.
> > but if Erik ends up in Pie then he can cut support.
>
>I am going to send a note to Ben telling him I am NOT supporting you PIE,
>but I am trying for Rome, which will get passed on to Erik, and he will
>use Tuscany to support Rome, while expecting your support into Naples.
>
>Mar and Tyr bounce in Pie and we are in business.
Sounds good. I've already sent (well, technically, composed) such a note to
Erik. I'll let you know what he says.
>Do that [offer support into Nap], and convoy ALB - APU regardless.
>
>Are you with me on all this.
Absolutely.
Take care,
--- Eric
Message from Italy to England
Ben....
Heard anything?
I am likely going to try for Rome.
Supporting Naples in...it makes him fight with Russia for Naples.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Heard anything?
No. He wrote me once & told me his moves were (partly) more errors, which
I suspect is true. Who knows.
I asked him to build A PAR. Who knows what he'll do.
> I am likely going to try for Rome.
>
> Supporting Naples in...it makes him fight with Russia for Naples.
Good bet. Probably all Russian, eventually.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> So, does this count as close to Andy, or
> do you want to work on a two way?
Well, right now it would be difficult. Probably I'd need MUN locked up
*and* you would have to be pretty far behind the line - even then, it may
not be possible. It would be more interesting if you had fewer southern
fleets, I think. . .
> I'm assuming not, but it never hurts to ask.
Well, 2-way, 3-way, there's not a huge difference. . . I think Erik may
have done us a favor by accelerating the simplification process, no matter
how clumsily he may have done it.
I don't see a safe way to a 2-way right now, but I am a tactical moron,
hence my forthcoming vgnp bagel. Let me know if you see something.
Ben
England: BUILD Army London
France: BUILD Army Paris
Italy: REMOVE Fleet Adriatic Sea
Russia: BUILD Army Warsaw
Turkey: REMOVE Fleet Eastern Mediterranean (*no order*)
Centers
England: 11
France: 7
Italy: 3
Russia: 13
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