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Message from Observer to Observer
I wonder if any other commentators have a take on Germany's
"abandonment" of the Western Triple. At first I thought this may
cement the EF alliance and quicken Germany's demise, but maybe not.
EF can't hurt Germany, other than trying to bounce him from Hol, until
next year at the earliest and France may have an angry Italy to deal
with as well. Meanwhile Germany will have lots of opportunities to
split any alliance that comes after him and GAI is still a possibility
with the French hostility to Italy and a relatively vulnerable Turkey.
I would have really liked to see the Triple pulled off here. Maybe
next time!
Karl
Message from France to England
Should have listened to my gut. Bastard just hung us out to dry -- he
gets two builds, can let Russia into Sweden and play it off like he had
no idea what was going on. Meanwhile, we've got to deal with an angry
Russia and Italy. Even if I surround Mujnich, he can build A Mun and A
Ber, and I've got no hope of taking it. Jesus. Maybe you can at least
outguess him and bounch him in Holland or Bel. Ugh.
Interesting moves on the Turk's part, though. Did you have anything to do
with that?
Erik
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
Nice moves, bud. Guess the super sneak-attack Western triple is off now.
At least I can still grab Spain and Portugal. Assuming, off course, that
I can talk my way out of Mar - Pie. You must be having a nice little
chuckle over this prank.
Erik
Message from Observer to Observer
>1. & 2. England/France
>
>I think they've established a good rapport with each other, and with
>Germany. As Germany points out, the Szykman opening leaves England
>less committed than the other. That's why he gets the nod.
>
I agree that EF did a lot of good in terms of alliances and the rumors
about Tony being a higher-class player than them will do a lot of
further galvanization. At the same time Germany remains uncommitted
with a lot of negotiation power - carrots to show both of them, mostly
England. Germany need not fear Russian pressure thus he can fully
concentrate on the western side. What should come in the diplomacy of
EF is that instead of interpreting G's move as a stab on the western
triple (see the press from F to E), they should try to explain to each
other how it is a stab on the other. This is good for keeping the EG
together against an inactive Germany but I suspect that Tony will come
forward with lots of plans. At the same time I think that E's ranking
should be markedly higher than France's (see my comments on Germany below)
>3. Austria
>
>Things look pretty unsettled in the east. However, I think that
>Austria comes out on top there thanks to his (apparently) successful
>manipulation of Turkey.
>
Actually I probably would put Austria at the top of the rankings. He
has very good chance to pick his two neutrals, everybody on the east
will beg for his friendship and all of his neighbors are in war already
in S1901. While EF looks like a winner alliance now, Austria's
long-term diplomatic position is quite promising.
>4. Germany
>
>Andy makes it sound like Germany is the best player in the world. So
>far, I haven't seen that. I think he's going along with the Szykman
>opening. If so, EF may go ahead and stab before the end of the year.
>If the hype is deserved, then we should get to see Germany turn around
>the attack the way France did last game.
>
Germany gets two builds, England gets one, France two and committed
against Italy, and Russia might be allowed to take Sweden. I would say
that Germany's position is quite good. He can also offer Belgium to
England in which case England builds two and either Germany is in Bur or
France is limited to one build. He also has the option of pointing out
to EF the move to Arm and claiming that EFG is still on the cards:
neither E nor F suffers from G not going guns blazing against Russia and
with a promise of keeping Russia out of Sweden and building two or three
armies his case might be quite strong. All in all, I see Germany's
position much better than France's as he has a wider range of options to
play with.
>5. Italy
>
>I haven't seen Italy make much happen yet. He's tried to get Russia to
>fight Austria, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
>
I praised Andy for his excellent play in 'comments', keeping Austria in
the draw was a miracle. But I largely agree with Eric that the
diplomatic situation was quite special then, where his one-liners, (with
the ellipses and missing question marks :-) ) - in other words, his FtF
play adopted to PBEM - worked well. In this game he has yet to show
that his repertoire is wider than that, otherwise he will not get far.
I agree that diplomatically he has not accomplished very much and apart
from the move to Armenia he has little to be happy about.
>6. Russia
>
>No clear allies and a couple of anti-Russian alliances in the
>formation, leaves Russia in early trouble.
>
*Nod*. He might survive 1901 in good shape but in none of his
relationship has he the upper hand. That means that he will have to be
nice with everybody and his moves will be largely dictated by what the
others want. He should definitely have to switch to another gear in
making sure that there are wars other than the ones at his border.
>7. Turkey
>
>Given the level of press in this game, his voice is getting drowned
>out by everyone else's. In a more normal game, his diplomacy may have
>been sufficient, but here it's too little and not nearly proactive
>enough. That's not all bad though, once he gets to see the archives, I
>think he'll probably learn quite a bit from it.
>
Indeed, Turkey will probably learn a lot from this game. His start is
not very promising and frankly I do not expect him to notice soon enough
that he is in trouble. One would think that this should be Russia's
hope for the game: an inexperienced Turkish player, but I am afraid
Turkey is eternally comitted against Russia so that leaves little room
to play with. Unless of course Austria attacks Turkey soon but I do not
see that happening.
Tamas
Message from Germany to France
Hi Erik, well I am sure that if I opened as agreed upon then England would be
convoying into BEL by now. I was seriously concerned about an ER realtionship
and that England had informed Russia of my moves.
As it is I will bounce Ben in BEL & HOL. If I was anti French then I would have
moved on BUR. I would also have informed Italy that you were moving to PIE. I
told you of his problem in VEN. If I informed him of you moving to PIE then all
he would have had to have done is bounce you in PIE and he would have still
been able to protect VEN.
This would have made me his friend. I didnt tell him so this should mean
something to you. I appreciate and understand your initial reaction but look at
the facts. I didnt inform Italy, I didnt move on BUR. I do want an FG against
England. I can help you with Italy. I am anti english.
I will be pushing Russia to work together with me against England so please
join in.
I want you to grab two builds although I would prefer you grab one and move MAO
to ENG. I can help you against Italy by building in MUN and moving on TYR.
Keep PIE where it is. We can take on England and Italy.
I will be pushing for a fleet in KIE army in MUN. I hope you join me against
England.
Maybe you can convince Austria to support you into VEN. I want you as an ally,
once again look at the facts and the board. We can take on England and Italy. A
move to ENG will set us up fine. If not grab two and build a fleet in BRE.
Convince the englishman that you are upset with me and offer to attack me with
him. Just move on ENG instead. We will be in england by the end of next year.
Message from Germany to Italy
Well I did try to warn you about PIE and suggested that you move there. Maybe
he is reliving the game where you exterminated him. Lets talk soon. Do you
think that tri - ven was a setup between France & Austria? just as wel we
suggested moving to APU. I guess you have to have APU support VEN just in case.
Lets see how the Austrian reacts. I find it a little strange that France would
attack you on his own. Maybe this explains why Austria insisted on the bounce.
At least you get TUN. Turkey attacking Russ
ia in the way he did may also point towards an AT. Combine this with a FA
attack on VEN then things begin to add up. My good news is that FE at least
dont seem to be allied against me.
Message from Germany to Russia
Let me know your thoughts.
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
Well guys it seems that in general we are off to a good start. France attacking
Italy only aids us to stick together.
Are AR going to stick together? I suggest they do. Italy has his hands full
with France.
Let me know what you guys are thinking.
Message from Observer to Observer
Gregory A Greenman wrote:
> 4. Germany
>
> Andy makes it sound like Germany is the best player in the world. So
> far, I haven't seen that.
Okay, now I've seen it.
> I think he's going along with the Szykman opening.
But then again, what do I know?
> If so, EF may go ahead and stab before the end of the year.
> If the hype is deserved, then we should get to see Germany turn around
> the attack the way France did last game.
It'll be interesting to see if EF hang together now or if Germany can
pry them apart.
Greg
Message from Observer to Observer
> I wonder if any other commentators have a take on Germany's
> "abandonment" of the Western Triple.
My take on this is that the Szykman is very very very bad for Gemany and that
Tony is not stupid. Szykman is even worse than the usual WT as the stab was
already planned for F01. Tony is not stupid. He didn't move to Bur like I
hoped, but then again that would have only reduced his options to manipulate
F.
> At first I thought this may
> cement the EF alliance and quicken Germany's demise, but maybe not.
Germany now has excellent options to play E and F against each other.
> EF can't hurt Germany, other than trying to bounce him from Hol,
> until next year at the earliest and France may have an angry Italy
> to deal with as well.
Right. Italy will be easily appeased though. Erik just needs to explain the
German stab and move Pie move back. Although admittedly EGI(AT) is also an
option now. If I was Erik I would go for Gas-Bur, Pie-Mar, MAO-Por and pick
up Spa next year when he knows where the build is needed most.
> I would have really liked to see the Triple pulled off here. Maybe
> next time!
I hate Western Triple. Glad to see it didn't come to pass.
Oscar
Message from Germany to Turkey
Daring indeed, I am assuming that in doing so you at least have an alliance with Austria.
No doubt you will be pushing Austria to attack VEN with France. The last thing you want is Austria supporting a convoy of APU to GRE and or supporting UKR into RUM .
Message from Germany to Germany
Well I am not unpleased with the outcome. I am now of course hoping that I can convince France to join me in an attack on England. I have nothing to worry about from Russia.
In fact I would probably be better of bouncing him just to ensure that England doesnt convince him to join in on attack of me in DEN.
I will await the replies from England and Russia before making any decisions.
By not informing Italy about the French move to PIE I hope to create a situation where FA join up or at least one where Italy will not trust France.
In theory the GAIR and EFG alliances can still work for now. It will be interesting to see how things develop.
I am glad I didnt opt for the attack on MUN. I am sure England would have then convoyed to BEL or HOL and pursuaded France to join in an attack on me next year.
I believe France realises that considering the situation he is better off teaming up with Austria and myself.
I am not yet sure of the impact of my deceat on FE, will they team up against me? I hope that I have manipulated the board that FG will be forced together along with FA.
Message from Germany to England and France
Sorry guys I got really paranoid about an ER alliance.
I saw Russia bouncing me in SIL or PRU and England convoying to BEL or HOL.
By next year I would have the pair of them bearing down on me. Following
that I expected them to bring France on board.
The damage is minimal as England can still move on BAR and convoy YOR to
NWY. I can still bounce Russia in SWE. In the spring we can take Sweden and in
the fall we can take STP.
Forgive me my trespasses, it was purely down to the jitters of a spring
move. I ran the most risk of a stab and paranoia got the upperhand.
Message from Observer to Observer
I suggested that one of the German options is to go EG against F, which
seemed to me much more obvious than FG against England. Tony's press to
France shows the aspects which I did not consider: IF he can sell FG
against England, then he is the boss in that alliance, France being
somewhat crippled while EG is roughly equal. Also with Russia on his
side, he might grab Scandinavia at some point which to me is the number
one strategy for Germany. So there is a lot to say in favor of FG.
At the same time it is also the riskier in terms of diplomacy. France
surely notices that Germany gets the most out of FG especially if he is
talked into one build only. Also, (and Tony might not know this fully),
the history of EF is so good so far that it might take much more effort
for Germany to tear them apart. All in all, however brilliant the plan
is, it far from being garanteed to be accepted.
Finally, I am surprised that Tony has not sent anything to England. If
England learns that he is getting only G to FE while France is getting G
to F too, then he will be quite upset and of course English proposals
for EF are just as attractive for France as those for GF...
Tamas
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Germany to France in 'c2':
>
>Hi Erik, well I am sure that if I opened as agreed upon then England would be
>convoying into BEL by now. I was seriously concerned about an ER realtionship
>and that England had informed Russia of my moves.
>As it is I will bounce Ben in BEL & HOL. If I was anti French then I would have
>moved on BUR. I would also have informed Italy that you were moving to PIE. I
>told you of his problem in VEN. If I informed him of you moving to PIE then all
>he would have had to have done is bounce you in PIE and he would have still
>been able to protect VEN.
>
>This would have made me his friend. I didnt tell him so this should mean
>something to you. I appreciate and understand your initial reaction but look at
>the facts. I didnt inform Italy, I didnt move on BUR. I do want an FG against
>England. I can help you with Italy. I am anti english.
>
>I will be pushing Russia to work together with me against England so please
>join in.
>
>I want you to grab two builds although I would prefer you grab one and move MAO
>to ENG. I can help you against Italy by building in MUN and moving on TYR.
>Keep PIE where it is. We can take on England and Italy.
>
>I will be pushing for a fleet in KIE army in MUN. I hope you join me against
>England.
>Maybe you can convince Austria to support you into VEN. I want you as an ally,
>once again look at the facts and the board. We can take on England and Italy. A
>move to ENG will set us up fine. If not grab two and build a fleet in BRE.
>Convince the englishman that you are upset with me and offer to attack me with
>him. Just move on ENG instead. We will be in england by the end of next year.
>
>
Message from Austria to France
Hi Erik,
You care to explain your opening moves? I'm glad
to see no one is attacking you; but why move
against Andy when I said I wasn't ready to?
Philippe
Message from Austria to Italy
Andy,
I know that my lack of trust with Italy in 1901 has complicated
things between us, but do you care to exchange your thoughts
on what's happening? For my part, I think Germany or Russia
arranged for France to attack you to disrupt the Lepanto.
Maybe Russia had hoped to roll with an RT and would have
prefered to see you occupy else where or this maybe part of
a German plan to further tension between us while having an
easy time invading France.
Hope you have a better understanding of what's happening here,
Philippe
Message from Austria to England
Hi Ben,
Good to see that we don't have to worry about an RT ;-)
What's your take on what's happening with Germany and
France? One thing is for sure, you have got to take
Belgium for yourself as 3 gains for Germany is a bit much.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Turkey
Hi Jason,
Glad to see everything is going as planned :-)
Philippe
Message from Italy to France
Erik...
Metagaming is below you.
Im nou sure why you wasted your time attacking me, and gave the German 3
builds simultaniously but you did....so what is done is done.
So...why break our DMZ for no profit.
Andy
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
>
> Well guys it seems that in general we are off to a good start. France
attacking Italy only aids us to stick together.
>
Are AR going to stick together? I suggest they do. Italy has his hands
full with France.
> Let me know what you guys are thinking.
>
I think that is more up to Austria than up to me.
Message from Italy to Germany
> Well I did try to warn you about PIE and suggested that you move there.
When you are my ally, and you know something.....SAY IT.
Dont suggest. You knew the history.
Maybe
> he is reliving the game where you exterminated him. Lets talk soon.
I eliminated him in the last Comments game also.....
Do you
> think that tri - ven was a setup between France & Austria?
Absolutely.
just as wel we
> suggested moving to APU. I guess you have to have APU support VEN just
in case.
Yeah...but I am going to have 3 enemy fleets in the med in the spring of
02.
> Lets see how the Austrian reacts. I find it a little strange that
France would attack you on his own. Maybe this explains why Austria
insisted on the bounce.
Im sure it was that way, he sent me a note claiming innocence but made no
other statements
> At least you get TUN. Turkey attacking Russ
> ia in the way he did may also point towards an AT. Combine this with a FA
> attack on VEN then things begin to add up. My good news is that FE at least
> dont seem to be allied against me.
Exactly.
Message from Italy to Austria
Philippe
> I know that my lack of trust with Italy in 1901 has complicated
> things between us, but do you care to exchange your thoughts
> on what's happening?
I figure you know what is going on.....so help me out....
For my part, I think Germany or Russia
> arranged for France to attack you to disrupt the Lepanto.
>
Why would Russia want to disrupt a Lepanto ....what you are saying here is
that Germany arranged this.....
> Maybe Russia had hoped to roll with an RT and would have
> prefered to see you occupy else where or this maybe part of
> a German plan to further tension between us while having an
> easy time invading France.
Who knows.
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
YOu can come attack France any time you want.
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> > Well guys it seems that in general we are off to a good start. France
> attacking Italy only aids us to stick together.
> >
> Are AR going to stick together? I suggest they do. Italy has his hands
> full with France.
> > Let me know what you guys are thinking.
> >
>
> I think that is more up to Austria than up to me.
If Italy is unable to go after Turkey, Russia is the only one
left to assist against him; but don't we risk seeing him
become a bigger partner then we wanted?
Also, I would really like to know what is happening with
France? His moves and those of England fit with a western
triple, except that Tony's moves don't. Were they trick
into something that wasn't to be?
Philippe
Message from Italy to Italy
Well...here I am again, talking to myselfand to you good folks out there
in commentator land.
Im pretty sure that Tony Vernon (Germany) engineered most of this, but I
am not sure yet.
I made a mistake in telling Tony that France and I had the kind of history
that we have, it gave him all the leverage that he would need to convince
Erik to move to Piedmont. But I am not convinced this is him. It could be
Philippe especially with that weak ass press he sent me right after it.
I get the impression that when Philippe starts a game, he builds a grid of
every player in the game and figues out who they ever shared a game with
before and examines the results.
Tony is controlling the movements of Turkey, and probably France. This is
classic Tony.....I am Germany so I will get everyone around me to fight
with each other.
I guess we will see how things go.
Message from Austria to Italy
> I figure you know what is going on.....so help me out....
Thing is, I don't know and I don't like it. France did
ask me about a possible attack of Italy, but once I
said I wasn't interested, I thought that was the end of
it. What he had suggested was a joint attack, not a
french crusade, so it doesn't make sense. Worst is,
I wanted him to protect himself from Germany to
prevent an early french fall to an EG, not to see
everything wide open in the west.
> Why would Russia want to disrupt a Lepanto ....what you are saying here is
> that Germany arranged this.....
I'm suggesting plenty, but don't know squat. That's
the problem. I had hope you would have known
more about the situation.
Anyway, I will try to learn what I can from France
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
Gregory A Greenman <greg@spencersoft.com> wrote:
>Actually, it's going to C2B. Check the archives on the web and you can
>confirm that.
>
>I just forgot to change the "To:" address in the headers. However,
>mail servers don't use that to determine where to send mail.
Damn those sneaky mail servers! I was wondering why it had the [c2b]
in the subject.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
Message from Observer to Observer
>Movement results for Spring of 1901. (c2.001)
>
>Austria: Army Budapest -> Serbia.
>Austria: Army Vienna -> Budapest.
>Austria: Fleet Trieste -> Venice. (*bounce*)
No surprises here. Exactly what Austria said he was doing, and a
safe, if not a strong, opening for Austria. Looks like he's got
Turkey as an ally if he wants him. Will he want him? AT is rarely a
good alliance for Austria. It's made for holding a stalemate line,
not winning a game; there's no way for Austria to successfully stab;
and it's often very simple for Turkey to stab. An alliance of
desperation, not of choice, IMNSHO. (From Austria's point of view, of
course; it's great for Turkey!)
>England: Army Liverpool -> Yorkshire.
>England: Fleet Edinburgh -> Norwegian Sea.
>England: Fleet London -> North Sea.
No surprises again, and unlike the German and French Szykman moves, a
very standard, safe English opening. Only likely to get the single
build, but he can stop Germany from getting three, at least. Also,
they can now have that discussion about Belgium they told everyone
they already had.
>France: Army Marseilles -> Piedmont.
>France: Army Paris -> Gascony.
>France: Fleet Brest -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean.
Goes for the Szykman variant WT, with the plan to stab Germany,
unfortunately...see below. Erik is the one most left holding the can
here. Andy is going to be MAJORLY annoyed. He can get his two builds,
though, and he isn't in any danger. It wouldn't be a bad opening if
he had been paranoid about Andy.
>Germany: Army Berlin -> Kiel.
>Germany: Army Munich -> Ruhr.
>Germany: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
This means that Germany lied to everybody, absolutely everybody, about
his orders. And managed to do that while using possibly the most
standard opening for Germany! Impressive. Two builds for sure.
Unfortunately, he seems to have restricted himself to GR or even more
southern alliances. I suspect this may well solidify the EF against
him. How can they trust him? He's come off as just being a practical
joker, saying anything to get a laugh. One wonders if Tony is taking
this game seriously. Still and all, if he really is such an all-fired
good player, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what he does.
>Italy: Army Rome -> Apulia.
>Italy: Army Venice HOLD.
>Italy: Fleet Naples -> Ionian Sea.
Conservative Lepanto opening. He didn't really have that much choice,
with Russia turning down the stab on Austria. I think Andy's terse
style may be hurting him here, as Tamas suggested, but Philippe did
kind of box him in. Andy seems to be resenting that, though, and I
can't help but think that the Tri - Ven idea will end up doing more
harm than good to Austria.
>Russia: Army Moscow HOLD.
>Russia: Army Warsaw -> Ukraine.
>Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea. (*bounce*)
>Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (south coast) -> Gulf of Bothnia.
Nicely guessed by Tamas; though really, the only variable was which of
Mos & War would go to Ukr. Doesn't look like an easy time for Russia,
but it's a lot better than the S'01 Tamas had to deal with in C1!
>Turkey: Army Constantinople -> Bulgaria.
>Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
>Turkey: Fleet Ankara -> Black Sea. (*bounce*)
Turkey launches at Russia. With Germany not having made the WT
assault on Russia, poor Jason is now doomed to be stuck butting heads
with Russia until either Austria helps him out, or Italy takes him
out. Or maybe he can lift his game diplomatically. Chances are,
though, he's going to stick with the idea that Austria will be helping
him. It's not necessarily in Philippe's interest to do so, though.
>The next phase of 'c2' will be Movement for Fall of 1901.
>Requested absence(s) activated.
>The deadline for orders will be Mon Oct 20 2003 23:30:00 -0500.
Ooh, it's gonna be a long, long wait for Fall '01. I shudder to think
of the number of messages we'll have to read.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
Message from Italy to Austria
> > I figure you know what is going on.....so help me out....
>
> Thing is, I don't know and I don't like it.
France and I have a history. I eliminated him in the first comments game
and since then....sete on USVG....go take a look.
That could be it, but my suspicion is that Tony engineered it.
Look at the board....
4 good players....AGIR
2 reasonable players TF
1 fairly inexperience player E
Austria attacking Germany in 01' is suicide.
Italy could be a problem, and since I have been working VERY hard to get
an EF together, it got back to Tony and he set the French on me.
Russia and France are its biggest threats outside England.
I have been working hard to get someone to put pressure on Germany, and I
guess it backfired.
France attacked me, Turkey attacked Russia....
France did
> ask me about a possible attack of Italy, but once I
> said I wasn't interested, I thought that was the end of
> it. What he had suggested was a joint attack, not a
> french crusade, so it doesn't make sense. Worst is,
> I wanted him to protect himself from Germany to
> prevent an early french fall to an EG, not to see
> everything wide open in the west.
Germany is going to kill France and then take on England. with noone to
bother him.
> > Why would Russia want to disrupt a Lepanto ....what you are saying here is
> > that Germany arranged this.....
>
> I'm suggesting plenty, but don't know squat. That's
> the problem. I had hope you would have known
> more about the situation.
I just spelled out my thoughts....
> Anyway, I will try to learn what I can from France
Please do.
thanks
Andy
Message from Observer to Observer
Tamas Hauer <thauer@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Ok, I have now tried to read most of the stuff that's in. My
>appreciation for the observers in 'comments' went up to the skies during
>this process.
>
>I know four players in this game, Erik of France, Andy of Italy and Eric
>of Russia from 'comments'.
Ah, Tamas, the Eric playing Russia is not the Eric you played with
Comments.
> And I have played against Tony Vernon. Of
>these, I believe Tony is the jolly joker
I'm guessing you're using this term the way I would say "wild card".
Heh, reminds me of a throwaway joke in a book by Robert Asprin,
involving an electronic translator -
Alien leader: So, what you are saying, Captain Clown...
Human: Uh, that's Captain _Jester_.
A.L.: Of course, Captain Clown...
>Germany:
>
>Tony just keeps asking and asking. This is actually the way I like to
>play 1901, he is right to say that S1901-promises are not taken to heart
Have to agree with you there. There's no such thing as a Spring '01
stab, there are only Spring '01 attacks.
>and he freely gives any prize for bits of information. Some players of
>course have realized by now that his questions like "your name pops up
>these days...?" have to be taken with a grain of salt, but it still
>works very well as everybody speaks about the topics he throws in.
Well, yes, he's getting information. Is he going to get cooperation,
though? For one of the exterior countries, information is often enough
to keep going for a while. For GA, though, I think cooperation is
really required.
>The
>3-way press on both sides (FGR and AIG) are quite interesting though and
>I am curious to see if he gets away with it. One thing to note is that
>there is an active AIG channel - a sign of the central alliance, but the
>content of the messages do not back it up at all. Predictions: none.
>I am pretty sure that Tony does not know either and he already made his
>case that whatever he does, nobody should take seriously :-)
Well, I think that EF had a firmer expectation of his actions than
everyone else, and he screwed them (well France, anyway). Are these
the actions of a wild card, or a rogue?
>Italy:
>
>I think that Andy is in trouble if the EF friendship continues to bloom,
>Germany turns on Russia and Austria sides Turkey, all possible.
>Fortunately it is not fatal for Italy but I agree with Andy that a
>jumpstart for Italy is almost required for doing well.
A slow start for Italy, and an uphill battle. We know he's good for
it, though. It should be entertaining to watch when Andy really
starts firing on all cylinders.
--
Mike Dowling
(http://politas.blogspot.com)
Message from Observer to Observer
>>I know four players in this game, Erik of France, Andy of Italy and Eric
>>of Russia from 'comments'.
>>
>>
>
>Ah, Tamas, the Eric playing Russia is not the Eric you played with
>Comments.
>
Sorry about the confusion, I meant a commentator. Yes, I can tell them
from each other, although it is quite a challenge as I am in a game
right now where both of them are playing. Eric Goodman (E.G.) and Eric
Hunter (E. of G - he is playing Germany) :-)
>> And I have played against Tony Vernon. Of
>>these, I believe Tony is the jolly joker
>>
>>
>
>I'm guessing you're using this term the way I would say "wild card".
>
thanks :-)
>Well, I think that EF had a firmer expectation of his actions than
>everyone else, and he screwed them (well France, anyway). Are these
>the actions of a wild card, or a rogue?
>
To be seen. Tony's arguments to France were quite convincing. The
reason: they are all true. France has the option of accepting an honest
German offer for an alliance. Or he has the option to decline it
if/becaue he realizes that Tony arranged the nasty conflict with Italy
and that he will be the minor power of the alliance. Both options are
playable and neither seems to me obviously wrong.
Tamas
Message from France to Austria
Phillipe:
Part of a larger plan that, due to some last-minute, uncommunicated
changes on Tony's part, didn't happen. Let's just say he didn't move as
expected.
Anyway, here I am. Given the sudden change in circumstances, I had been
planning to make nice with Andy and pull back. On the other hand, we do
have two units bordering Venice, and with a little diplomacy, we might be
able to do something with that. It seems unlikely that Andy would order
anything other than A Apu S A Ven, but you never know.
In any case, I guess I have damage control to do with Italy, no matter
what. I'll start doing that now. If you'd like to take advantage of my
current position, please let me know. I'm open to supporting you into
Venice if it means grabbing Rome and Tunis down the road for me.
Erik
Message from France to Italy
Andy:
Okay, I can't say you didn't warn me. "Watch out for Tony, watch out for
Tony, watch out for Tony." At least I've learned my lesson early.
I'm dreadfully sorry for the move to Piedmont. I was convinced, thanks to
the efforts of a certain neighbor of ours, that you were headed west
toward Spain and Marseilles. The Austrian's cryptic and unhelpful press,
perhaps at Germany's urging, didn't help matters. I thought Mar - Pie
would bounce. I shouldn't have let him get into my head, but I did.
I suspect that Tony's pulled the same voodoo with England, as I think
they'd made a plan to attack Russia right off the bat -- and it looks like
Tony left Ben out to dry on that one, too. I definitely underestimated his
ability to manipulate people.
The good news is that I can't see this doing anything but bringing England
and I closer together and more resolved to take on Germany. The bad news,
of course, is that I'm in Piedmont, and that's rightfully got you a little
miffed.
I will most certainly move back to Marseilles and hope that you continue
on whatever course (anti-Turkish?) you were headed down.
I need to look at the map and think about where to go next. If you could
do whatever possible diplomatically to make sure that Russia and England
have an interest in seeing Germany go down, I'd appreciate it.
Erik
Message from France to Germany
> Hi Erik, well I am sure that if I opened as agreed upon then England
> would be
> convoying into BEL by now. I was seriously concerned about an ER
> realtionship
> and that England had informed Russia of my moves.
I can't blame you, but for the record, both England and I were quite
willing to see where this gambit took all of us. I don't know if he told
Russia anything about it, but based on the Russian opening, I would guess
not.
> As it is I will bounce Ben in BEL & HOL. If I was anti French then I
> would have
> moved on BUR. I would also have informed Italy that you were moving to
> PIE. I
> told you of his problem in VEN. If I informed him of you moving to PIE
> then all
> he would have had to have done is bounce you in PIE and he would have
> still
> been able to protect VEN.
No, I don't doubt that. I wasn't suggesting that you were being anti-
French, merely that you had deep sixed our opening plan, and thereby more
or less killed the point of the strategy -- that specific opening was
built around a quick, coordinated surprise attack of our neighbors, and
that's not so much possible anymore.
I was actually more worried that you'd take a different approach and
follow your broadcast orders to a T -- thereby ending up with you in
Burgundy as a result of our missed "bounce".
>
> I want you to grab two builds although I would prefer you grab one and
> move MAO
> to ENG. I can help you against Italy by building in MUN and moving on
> TYR.
> Keep PIE where it is. We can take on England and Italy.
I'm not sure that we can take on both at once. A lot of that will depend
on Austria, who, frankly, is stupified that I moved to Piedmont. If you
have some sway with him, though, maybe it's possible.
I will consider a move to Eng, but to be honest, at this point, it seems
wiser to go for the two safe builds and see what you do next.
> I will be pushing for a fleet in KIE army in MUN. I hope you join me
> against
> England.
As I said, I am considering it. In fact, I had thought that was the plan
for a few years down the road anyway; I didn't realize you preferred to go
after him earlier. I'm a little perturbed at your opening deception, but
what's done is done. Let me look at the map and get back to you. If you
have some success with Russia and/or Austria, let me know and that may
help convince me.
Erik
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> Good to see that we don't have to worry about an RT ;-)
True, true. Will you be going after Russia?
> What's your take on what's happening with Germany and
> France? One thing is for sure, you have got to take
> Belgium for yourself as 3 gains for Germany is a bit much.
Yeah, mostly good news. Weird business between G and F. I'll see what I
can do about HOL/BEL. I'll figure something out.
Ben
Message from Austria to France
> Part of a larger plan that, due to some last-minute, uncommunicated
> changes on Tony's part, didn't happen. Let's just say he didn't move as
> expected.
I guess he didn't went for the western triple ;-( Could
you elaborate on the subject just so I know what I'm
dealing with here?
> Anyway, here I am. Given the sudden change in circumstances, I had been
> planning to make nice with Andy and pull back. On the other hand, we do
> have two units bordering Venice, and with a little diplomacy, we might be
> able to do something with that. It seems unlikely that Andy would order
> anything other than A Apu S A Ven, but you never know.
>
> In any case, I guess I have damage control to do with Italy, no matter
> what. I'll start doing that now. If you'd like to take advantage of my
> current position, please let me know. I'm open to supporting you into
> Venice if it means grabbing Rome and Tunis down the road for me.
In a way, I'm disturb that you were willing to go after
my potential saviour, even though I indicated I wasn't
up for it; but since there's no RT, I suppose it's worth
examining.
Philippe
Message from England to England
Erik -
> Should have listened to my gut.
Both of us should have listened to your gut. He made us monkeys, for sure.
> Bastard just hung us out to dry -- he
> gets two builds, can let Russia into
> Sweden and play it off like he had
> no idea what was going on. Meanwhile,
> we've got to deal with an angry
> Russia and Italy.
Not so much an angry Russia. But an angry Italy, absolutely.
> Even if I surround Mujnich, he can build A Mun and A
> Ber, and I've got no hope of taking it. Jesus. Maybe you can at least
> outguess him and bounch him in Holland or Bel. Ugh.
There won't be any guessing involve - he'll be trying for both.
> Interesting moves on the Turk's part, though. Did you have
> anything to do with that?
Well I thought it was coming, but I didn't cause it. Good news.
We have to decide how stupid we should pretend to be (after the spring are
we pretending?) when we deal with Tony. Let me know if you've written him
already.
Ben
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
What do you make of what happened there.
I have some ideas, and I think we might need to take care of a couple of
things.
Andy
Message from Austria to England
> True, true. Will you be going after Russia?
Probably, but I'm a bit worried of Germany.
> Yeah, mostly good news. Weird business between G and F. I'll see what I
> can do about HOL/BEL. I'll figure something out.
It's probably just a play on Germany's part to go after France;
but I would watch out in your place. If he's convinced France
will do anything he ask, he might to go for an FG alliance and
weasel himself into a position to take you out (Den-Ska,
Kie-Den & Ruh-Hol for example would put him in position to
work with a russian fleet in Sweden without looking too anti-
english). To prevent that, could you pressure Germany into
denying Sweden even though Russia hasn't threathened any
one?
Philippe
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> YOu can come attack France any time you want.
:)
Tony lied his butt off and Erik would much rather wring his neck than yours.
I would also rather see Erik attack Tony than you, and I also know Tony lied
his butt off, just like you said he would.
Could I attack France? Yes. Is that wise, considering Tony? I don't know.
But the F->G animosity is absolutely tremendous and I wonder if, for
instance, you could help get PIE into TYR. I don't know right now if that's
a good idea, but it gives you an idea of the kind of thing that might work.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
What of the Lowlands? You're not suggesting the Western Triple begins with
three builds for Germany and one each for France and England, are you?
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> It's probably just a play on Germany's part to go after France;
> but I would watch out in your place.
No kidding.
> If he's convinced France
> will do anything he ask, he might to go for an FG alliance and
> weasel himself into a position to take you out (Den-Ska,
> Kie-Den & Ruh-Hol for example would put him in position to
> work with a russian fleet in Sweden without looking too anti-
> english). To prevent that, could you pressure Germany into
> denying Sweden even though Russia hasn't threathened any
> one?
Germany's already told me he will deny Sweden to Russia. I have no
particular reason to believe he will do this, though. On the contrary, I
think you are probably right to warn me of a G/R.
Thanks for the advice. You and Turkey have things set up beautifully,
unless I miss my guess. Could we get no builds for Russia this year? I
can't believe he ordered Moscow to hold. I was closer than I thought with
my broadcast of MOS - WAR, WAR - MOS.
Ben
Message from England to England
Well, now I see the answer to some of my own questions, not the least of
which is, why would a Germany ever propose this wacky opening. Within a day
or two of the deadline, I thought to myself, why not in S'01 just order
something like French PAR - PIC, BRE - MAO, MAR - BUR, and go straight for
the jugular in the Spring. In retrospect clearly it's what we should have
done.
My thinking was, let the German units get as far out of position as
possible, into LVN and PRU, while we move in for a quick kill. After all
why would Tony accept this plan & not consult with me, if he wanted just to
sneak up on France? Of course Tony was a step ahead and has thrust France
into a diplomatic nightmare and made it impossible for EF to get a jump on
him.
Ben
Message from England to all
> :: Deadline: F1901M Mon Oct 20 2003 23:30:00 -0500
Will one of you confess to being away? Or will I have to send Tony to come
and find you?
Ben
Message from Italy to all
>
> > :: Deadline: F1901M Mon Oct 20 2003 23:30:00 -0500
> Will one of you confess to being away? Or will I have to send Tony to come
> and find you?
I am going to be at the North American Dip Championships til Monday.
starting tommorow morning
Message from England to Italy
D'oh! Of course. Good luck. Is anything happening on Monday or is it over
by then?
> > > :: Deadline: F1901M Mon Oct 20 2003 23:30:00 -0500
> > Will one of you confess to being away? Or will I have to
> send Tony to come
> > and find you?
>
> I am going to be at the North American Dip Championships til Monday.
>
> starting tommorow morning
Message from Germany to Italy
Well I am afraid I didnt know it, purely based on the history it seemned the
logical conclusion.
Dont forget my initial request was for you to move there in the AIG set up.
It wasnt until Austria started making demands that the request was no longer
made.
Maybe the english I used wasnt the best way of expressing the gut feeling
that ven - pie was the move to make.
It was based on the fact that GIA were to work together. Therefore we
expand. I did try one more time and asked for rom - ven and ven - pie. Alas
the Austria had an hidden agenda. I guess the fall will reveal all as to his
intentions, especially if for now he plays the innocent but doesnt offer any
concrete moves.
I just found the insistence of tri-ven very strange, usually parties just
insist on holding, the move to PIE sheds light on the situation. I will
build in MUN and try and keep RUH where it is. I should be able to get down
to help somehow.
I guess Austria wont be convoying you to ALB. A fleet in ROM whilst Turkey
is busy with Russia whould give you enough breathing space for me to come to
help.
Will have a talk with a few powers and get back to you.
Message to all
> > :: Deadline: F1901M Mon Oct 20 2003 23:30:00 -0500
>Will one of you confess to being away? Or will I have to send Tony to come
>and find you?
I confess. It's me.
;-)
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
Western tripple? You must explain it to me one day. All I see is England
doing a bog standard opening and France grabbing two builds and going for
Italy. Add to that the insistence on the bounce in VEN leaving two on VEN is
just as strange. The color of my units may be black but I am amazed how I
suddenly became the black sheep of the family.
Message from Germany to France
>>I can't blame you, but for the record, both England and I were quite
willing to see where this gambit took all of us. I don't know if he told
Russia anything about it, but based on the Russian opening, I would guess
not.>>
In hindsight I agree, I too would have liked to see where it ended up. But
could you inmagine my units being in PRU and SIL right now. Especially with
Russia under attack in the south. If I was England then I would convoy to
HOL or BEL.
Prefably HOL and then I would offer you BEL next year if you joined me. No,
I am glad I didnt go ahead with it. England would be laughing by now. Russia
on his side and Germany's back door wide open. I am sure that if I were in
PRU/SIL and you were playing England then you too would convoy to BEL or
HOL.
>>I'm not sure that we can take on both at once. A lot of that will depend
on Austria, who, frankly, is stupified that I moved to Piedmont. If you have
some sway with him, though, maybe it's possible.>>
Sure we can take them on, we like a good scrap. The move to PIE does look a
little weird on its own, but in context it fits perfectly. Italy is
beginnening to believe that you and Austria set him up. That would explain
the insistence of Austria on bouncing in VEN. I am sure if you and I push
him he will come on board. offer him VEN. Moving back to MAR is pointless.
Its obvious I am not after you. It also leaves MAR open for a build.
I will talk to Austria and see what I can do, but I am pretty sure he would
come onboard. I would. He must feel that Italy cant offer him any help in
any way.
>>I will consider a move to Eng, but to be honest, at this point, it seems
wiser to go for the two safe builds and see what you do next.>>
Your situation is safe. The east poses no threat and your fleet would be in
ENG. You could even afford to build an army in BRE to convoy in the spring.
If I was after you then I would not have screwed up the FEG alliance. That
would surely ensure that FE came after me. I made a decision for a partner
the moment you opened up the possibility of attack england in the near
future. All my moves are anti English (when considered in the EFG alliance).
Dont forget it was a spring move of 1901. Anything could have happened. I
could have had you two breathing down my neck with my units in PRU/SIL. I
just got lucky. But I did decide on an alliance with you when I decided to
break the EFG. Thats why I am not in BUR and you did not bounce with Italy
in PIE. England sounds to cautious, he has a sit back wait and see
mentality. Lets clean up there and nibble away at Italy. If you want to solo
you have to grab TUN anyway. Having a strong England and Germany wouldnt
help.
>>I'm a little perturbed at your opening deception, but what's done is
done>>
As I said it could have gone either way. With me in PRU/SIL then you and
england could now be in BUR and PIC.
BEL and HOL would have fallen and besides Russia I would have had you to to
contend with. Now FG have a chance to make a good start and grow.
Message from Austria to England
> > It's probably just a play on Germany's part to go after France;
> > but I would watch out in your place.
> No kidding.
Sorry for stating the obvious ;-)
> Germany's already told me he will deny Sweden to Russia. I have no
> particular reason to believe he will do this, though. On the contrary, I
> think you are probably right to warn me of a G/R.
As far as I know, the plan was for Germany to deny
Sweden if Russia attacked me or Germany right away.
I don't think there ever was a plan to deny Sweden
whatever happened, but I might be wrong.
Since France's situation permit an EF as well as an EG
alliance, have you thought of forcing Germany's hand by
making Den-Swe a necessary step for an EG alliance
instead of simply asking politely? This might appear too
strong a step for you, I don't know, but it's not really
costing Germany anything and you would know how
to orient your diplomacy for next year.
Anyway, I won't pursue the subject more then that
because your relationship with Germany is for you to
define and my opinion on that subject might not be
welcome, even thought it's pretty evident why I might
want to see a strong England and weak Russia in the
coming years :-)
> Thanks for the advice. You and Turkey have things set up beautifully,
> unless I miss my guess. Could we get no builds for Russia this year? I
> can't believe he ordered Moscow to hold. I was closer than I thought with
> my broadcast of MOS - WAR, WAR - MOS.
Everything is in the card! It just depend on how they
are dealt.
Philippe
Message from Germany to England
No Ben, I am happy just to take HOL. It was a s1901 move. If you and France
really got together then I would now be in SIL/PRU. He would be in BUR and
in PIC. You would be convoying to HOL and he would pick up BEL and bounce me
in MUN. I would be left with egg on my face in PRU/SIL and just the one
build surrouned by three enemies.
What would you do if you were F or G in this situation as the board stands?
Would you join forces bounce england in BEL and HOL and go after him?
Or would you if you were germany feeling guilty because of your paranoid
spring moves just take HOL and try and get the EFG back on track?
Or would you as England try and talk Germany into giving you BEL instead of
bouncing so you can both go after France?
I am sure the three of us will continue to talk whilst bilateral talks take
place between all three. Remeber what I said, try and take control of your
own destiny. Dont rely on me or France. Hammer out the best deal you can and
go for it. If I offer you BEL take it and stab me next spring. Dont close
all doors up front. Good luck, always ready to talk.
Message from Germany to all
> Deadline: F1901M Mon Oct 20 2003 23:30:00 -0500Will one of you confess to
being away? Or will I have to send Tony to come and find you?>
Well the 18th is my birthday and I was planning on spending all cash
donations on a shopping spree at Harrods in f1903m (in London for the
americans under you ;-). But if the offer is right then I will be willing to
hunt the AWOLér down
Message from Italy to France
Erik,
> Okay, I can't say you didn't warn me. "Watch out for Tony, watch out for
> Tony, watch out for Tony." At least I've learned my lesson early.
>
I hope so....you are wide open and he is going to hurt you if you dont do
something about it. Because he is going to get 3 unless Ben can find a way
to talk him into Belgium, which I doubt.
> I'm dreadfully sorry for the move to Piedmont. I was convinced, thanks to
> the efforts of a certain neighbor of ours, that you were headed west
> toward Spain and Marseilles.
Understood. And as soon as I saw it, I was pretty sure that was going on.
The Austrian's cryptic and unhelpful press,
> perhaps at Germany's urging, didn't help matters. I thought Mar - Pie
> would bounce. I shouldn't have let him get into my head, but I did.
I dont think so....Austria is giving me a firm line of *what the hell is
going on*, and I believe him to a point.
> I suspect that Tony's pulled the same voodoo with England, as I think
> they'd made a plan to attack Russia right off the bat -- and it looks like
> Tony left Ben out to dry on that one, too. I definitely underestimated his
> ability to manipulate people.
Did you just ignore me when I said that he was MUCH better than I am.
Much better than Tamas is.
Help me out here.
But there is no reason to beat a dead horse.
> The good news is that I can't see this doing anything but bringing England
> and I closer together and more resolved to take on Germany. The bad news,
> of course, is that I'm in Piedmont, and that's rightfully got you a little
> miffed.
Just get out of my backyard.
> I will most certainly move back to Marseilles and hope that you continue
> on whatever course (anti-Turkish?) you were headed down.
We shall see.
> I need to look at the map and think about where to go next. If you could
> do whatever possible diplomatically to make sure that Russia and England
> have an interest in seeing Germany go down, I'd appreciate it.
I will do my best.
Message from Germany to all
>>I am going to be at the North American Dip Championships til Monday.>>
Try and set a board up as we stand at this moment and ask 7 top players to
make fall move suggestions (backed up by the diploming that needs to be done
first).
p.s. Dont forget to share anything they say
Message from Italy to England
What did Germany promise you
Message to all
> > > :: Deadline: F1901M Mon Oct 20 2003 23:30:00 -0500
> >Will one of you confess to being away? Or will I have to send Tony to
come
> >and find you?
>
> I confess. It's me.
>
> ;-)
>
>
Tony, I am one of those expecting you to broadcast your fall moves!
Message from Italy to Austria
Philippe,
Well...the French claim to have been snowed by the German.
What are you hearing...
Im thinking that we get together with Russia, kill the turn and move west.
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> Western tripple? You must explain it to me one day. All I see is England
> doing a bog standard opening and France grabbing two builds and going for
> Italy. Add to that the insistence on the bounce in VEN leaving two on VEN is
> just as strange. The color of my units may be black but I am amazed how I
> suddenly became the black sheep of the family.
No problem: http://devel.diplom.org/Zine/F1999R/Szykman/triple.html
I didn't say there was a western triple. I said France
might have been trick into thinking there was one,
completely different.
I would agree that France might not have been tricked
into anything and has plans of his own; but if he was,
I'm clearly not the one in position to profit from this.
It's been made quite clear since the start that Ven
would be safe in the fall.
Now, on a happier note, congratulation Tony for your
very good positionning. Are you actually aiming for 3
builds or just expecting England to bounce one of them?
Philippe
Message from Germany to Austria and France
Interesting tactics guys, congratulations you had me fooled. Now I
understand the TRI - VEN bounce when seen in context with an unnatural move
to PIE if France was working alone.
As France is looking at two builds I am assuming that Austria will be
supported into VEN.
This doesnt ensure VEN as Italy can support with APU but I must admit it
will enable the two of you to wrap Italy up rather quick. Having seen the
spring moves then I am also making the assumption that Austria is working
with Turkey and will be heading for GRE whilst he supports BUL to RUM along
with Turkeys move on BLA and SEV (cutting support). No doubt the AF alliance
will eventually cost Turkey its head.
Message from Germany to France
OK, here goes I will press to you and Austria. I will make it up as I go
along ;-)
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
OK, I have no idea what is going on so I have also pressed FA, FE, ER. If we
all are confused as I am then I dont see the move to PIE as any other than
that of an AIGR confirmation. APU gets convoyed to GRE and UKR gets
supported to RUM. Or was Italy ment to take TUN and Austria ment to get GRE
and SER?
The options are endless. My initial talks were of AIG, I am sticking to that
for now, my moves do not indicate any other alliance. If I were part of an
EFG then I wouldnt be putting a claim on BEL/HOL.
Strange you believe EFG can get a 3 way agreed and not AIG. I guess we will
all have to await the fall moves to see where the alliances are forming.
I do recall however that the last comments game consisted of three players
lieing to one power during the spring move.
Even to date this is an interesting game.
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
>>Are you actually aiming for 3 builds or just expecting England to bounce
one of them?>>
Well as I am part of an AIG I thought we would all be going for maximum
builds.
As it is I expect him to bounce me in BEL or HOL. I guess I have to go for
them both.
I am assuming you dont want me to bounce in Sweden now.
If you want to turn the AIGR into an AIGT then I assume you want me to
bounce him.
On the other hand you offer to support the Turk into RUM but DONT. Instead
you support yourself into RUM from BUD. You suggest the Turk moves on BLA
and cuts support from SEV in exchange for helping him into RUM (which you
dont but him cutting support from SEV ensures that yuou get in).
As Italy at worst faces three fleets by fall next year he could convoy to
GRE.
If the pair of you are convinced that I am part of an EFG gone wrong then
VEN is not in trouble from TRI/VEN.
I guess thats something Italy has to decide. But there is still plenty of
potential for AIG.
Message from Austria to Italy
> Well...the French claim to have been snowed by the German.
>
> What are you hearing...
Pretty much the same thing.
> Im thinking that we get together with Russia, kill the turn and move west.
Don't forget that I'm stuck between you and Russia.
The plan for the elimination of Turkey was for you
and I to end up with the biggest shares of the spoils
so we could pursue an AI alliance. If France has a
grudge against you and allow Germany to influence
him, we risk seeing him distract you from the turkish
invasion and have Russia take the bulk of Turkey's
homeland since there's no way for me to easily get
there in your place.
At the moment, my relation with Turkey is ok, as you
can imagined, and this could be use to involved Turkey
in a war with Russia that would allow us to setup the
fall of Turkey that would really favor us, not Russia.
Philippe
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> What did Germany promise you
I thought you might have figured it out by now.
A Western Triple. Erik & Tony had separately suggested trying one. If
Germany was now in SIL and PRU, and France and I were as we are now,
wouldn't there be doors open for Erik & me.
But it wasn't meant to be, at least in F'01. It was an easy call for me -
I'm not extended at all - but it sure messed up Erik's position. Anyway the
key is, I would like to keep the door open between you & France, & we are
now at the stage where I don't want you to make his head explode. Which
isn't to say that I *can't* move on him, I just want to put these cards on
the table & we can figure out the next step.
Ben
Message from Austria to France and Germany
> Interesting tactics guys, congratulations you had me fooled. Now I
> understand the TRI - VEN bounce when seen in context with an unnatural move
> to PIE if France was working alone.
> As France is looking at two builds I am assuming that Austria will be
> supported into VEN.
> This doesnt ensure VEN as Italy can support with APU but I must admit it
> will enable the two of you to wrap Italy up rather quick. Having seen the
> spring moves then I am also making the assumption that Austria is working
> with Turkey and will be heading for GRE whilst he supports BUL to RUM along
> with Turkeys move on BLA and SEV (cutting support). No doubt the AF alliance
> will eventually cost Turkey its head.
What's going on with you two? Are you just trying
to make things interesting for the observer or is
there a point behind this ;-)
Philippe
Message from Austria to Germany and Italy
> As Italy at worst faces three fleets by fall next year he could convoy to
> GRE.
> If the pair of you are convinced that I am part of an EFG gone wrong then
> VEN is not in trouble from TRI/VEN.
> I guess thats something Italy has to decide. But there is still plenty of
> potential for AIG.
Personaly, I don't see any problem with AIG.
If there had actually been a western triple, it
would have created problems of allegiance;
but since it's not the case.
As for bouncing Sweden, Russia is a minor
partner of AGI that is needed to take down
Turkey. Since the goal isn't to see him get
strong out of it, I'm ok with seeing him get
bounced in Sweden if it doesn't interfere with
the southern plan. Your call.
Philippe.
P.-S. What's with the GFA press?
Message from Germany to Germany
If you cant convince them confuse them.
It will be interesting to see if FA see eye to eye on VEN and an eventual
alliance.
Austria has several options. I am looking forward to hearing from Russia.
The EFG alliance had me worried, I was concerned that my units were in
SIL/PRU and that behind my back FE were planning a big stab. I also would
not have been surprised if Russia had moved on SIL.
Although no communications between EFG hinted that they would do anything
other than that agreed upon was not compelling enough reason to actually go
ahead with it.
I think that the situation achieved is a reasonable result for Germany which
I hate to play. I have had bad experiences with Germany. Or I can only
remember the bad experiences.
It will now all come down to real diplomacy. I should get two builds. I just
have to use the alloted time to at least get France on my side. I am not to
worried about Russia, I may or may not bounce him. This all depends on how
well negotiations go with Russia and England. I would rather have Sweden
empty than a possible English ally docking there.
Evaluation so far: I believe Turkey acted alone. Austrian moves prove this.
No doubt Austria suggested a non agression pact and stated that he would
await the outcome before commiting himself.
Italy could have done more if there was serious talk of an AIG alliance.
Maybe Frances warning that Italy didnt trust me as far as he can throw me
explains his actions.
Russia and Austria obviously agreed on the DMZ. Just a little amazed that
once that decision was made Russia never attempted to diplome on deploying
his Moscow army to the north or west with me or any other power.
I guess most powers didnt put to much into diploming during the spring
thinking that anything could happen anyway.
It will be interesting to see just how many actually tried to make hard
plans that required commitment.
I know I did, I also know that I didnt stick to that agreed upon. What is
worse? time will tell. I only actually lied to EF. One of them I hope will
become the next victim. So actually only deceiving 1 out of 6 who turns into
an ally isnt a bad result.
Message from Germany to Austria and France
>>What's going on with you two? Are you just trying
to make things interesting for the observer or is
there a point behind this ;-)>>
Hahahaha so the pair of you still deny planning this all along. OK, i can
await the fall outcome.
If you two do decide to "let me in" then "let me know".
Message from Italy to England
> Could I attack France? Yes. Is that wise, considering Tony? I don't know.
> But the F->G animosity is absolutely tremendous and I wonder if, for
> instance, you could help get PIE into TYR. I don't know right now if that's
> a good idea, but it gives you an idea of the kind of thing that might work.
Work with France.....kill Tony.
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
>> P.-S. What's with the GFA press?>>
As stated I pressed EF, FA, ER. I have no idea what is going on and by fall
i hope that my eyes will be opened.
Maybe Turkey and me who went it alone are the only sane ones here ;-)
I am anxiously awaiting the fall move, I hate being left out
Maybe I should try a GIT or any other 3 letter combination broadcast ;-).
Message from Germany to all
Hey Jason, I think that it was only you and me who went it alone maybe we
should team up for a 2 way?!... or did you move in accordance with...... ;-)
Message from Italy to Austria and Germany
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Germany to Austria and Italy in 'c2':
>
> Western tripple? You must explain it to me one day.
Tony.....please....you know what a western triple is.....
All I see is England
> doing a bog standard opening and France grabbing two builds and going for
> Italy.
Which is a standard Western Triple.....hell, France didnt come near you.
Add to that the insistence on the bounce in VEN leaving two on VEN is
> just as strange. The color of my units may be black but I am amazed how I
> suddenly became the black sheep of the family.
You arent, but dont insult me.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Work with France.....kill Tony.
As I said - that's my first choice.
But my friggin plan is in the friggin toilet & looking back on it it was not
a good one.
Status right now is I'm trying to negotiate my way into BEL. It'll be a
long haul, with Erik's units where they are. Wish me luck & any suggestions
are welcome. I guess the long haul is good news for you, anyway. ;-)
Ben
Message from Austria to France
Hi Erik,
> Hahahaha so the pair of you still deny planning this all along. OK, i can
> await the fall outcome.
> If you two do decide to "let me in" then "let me know".
I don't want to rush you, but I'm still waiting to hear
more about the source of all this. Joking about it is
entertaining, but it would be more fun if I knew what
this is all about.
Philippe
Message from France to Austria
>
> What's going on with you two? Are you just trying
> to make things interesting for the observer or is
> there a point behind this ;-)
>
I think the point is that Germany's off his rocker. I'll write a full
response to your previous message shortly.
Erik
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
>>Tony.....please....you know what a western triple is.....>>
Well I can understand it as in a threesome like IAG but not with some actual
moves attached as in the moves of FE with G moves gone wrong.
>>All I see is England doing a bog standard opening and France grabbing two
builds and going for
> > Italy. Which is a standard Western Triple.....hell, France didnt come
near you.>>
I know he didnt. We had an agreement we wouldnt just as I had with Russia,
Austria had one with Russia. I assume you had one with France. One I assume
Russia had with Turkey and vice versa.
England had an "I wont move on you and I hope you wont move on me approach "
which was fine with me. I went solo like Turkey only less agressive as
Turkey whilst I awaited the outcome of the AI affair in VEN.
If I would have moved on England then KIE would be in HOL.
> > The color of my units may be black but I am amazed how I
> > suddenly became the black sheep of the family.
>
> You arent, but dont insult me.
Its an insult to myself, before I saw the link I had never heared of a
"western tripple" opening combined with moves.
Only a western tripple in the sense of an alliance as in a central alliance
or eastern alliance. I couldnt even tell you the moves to a lepanto. I
always try to make alliances early and I play every round according to the
situation on the board.
Looking at it it still spells GAI.
Message from England to Germany
Erik -
> No Ben, I am happy just to take HOL. It was a s1901 move. If
> you and France
> really got together then I would now be in SIL/PRU. He would
> be in BUR and
> in PIC. You would be convoying to HOL and he would pick up
> BEL and bounce me
> in MUN. I would be left with egg on my face in PRU/SIL and
> just the one
> build surrouned by three enemies.
Wouldn't that have been clever. If I only had a brain. . .
> What would you do if you were F or G in this situation as the
> board stands?
I asked you a couple of times if you were serious about the triple. I'm not
sure I would have had the guts to try it, but you did & nearly got out of
the gate cleanly. . .
> Would you join forces bounce england in BEL and HOL and go after him?
> Or would you if you were germany feeling guilty because of
> your paranoid spring moves just take HOL and try and get the EFG back
> on track?
Guilt? I know I'd want to patch things up with at least one of EF, that's
for sure.
> Or would you as England try and talk Germany into giving you
> BEL instead of
> bouncing so you can both go after France?
Did my press to you - just you - not leave these doors open? Did my group
press not leave these doors open? I am asking for BEL. I am open to
suggestions.
> I am sure the three of us will continue to talk whilst
> bilateral talks take
> place between all three. Remeber what I said, try and take
> control of your
> own destiny. Dont rely on me or France. Hammer out the best
> deal you can and
> go for it. If I offer you BEL take it and stab me next
> spring. Dont close
> all doors up front. Good luck, always ready to talk.
Certainly always ready to talk. You put France in a tough spot. You did
not put *me* in a tough spot. And if you want to give me BEL and then want
me to stab you next turn, I can do that. ;-)
Is it reasonable to think we might try for an EFG now? Considering your
push west? It's a small matter to me - I can try for NWY and BEL either way
- but for you & France, is it doable?
Ben
Message from France to Austria
Phillipe:
So the story is that it seems we were heading toward a western triple not
necessarily by concious design but as a result of German manipulation.
Germany scared me into making a strong attack against Italy out of fear
that Andy planned to open Ven - Pie and Nap - Tys. Your reluctance to work
with me against Andy reinforced that idea, as it seemed to me that an AI
partnership must have formed. When Andy started pushing for me to attack
Germany, it all started to point toward an Italian attack.
I suppose Germany did the same with England and Russia, hence the Northern
attack. England and I should have compared notes more -- we just agreed
not to attack one another, for the most part. Anyway, I expected some
German moves that didn't materialize. Germany claims that he rushed west
out of fear of an impending EF attack, but I think he just wanted England
and I out of the way so that he could get two or three guaranteed builds
to himself.
Clearly, I was wrong in my thinking, and now I'm stuck in Piedmony.
Germany would, of course, like to see my attack continue, and is probably
trying to encourage you to help me out.
That's the story. Hope it's been enlightening. Andy's mad, but seems to
accept my reasoning. The question is: what now?
Erik
Message from Russia to France
Interesting move to Pie. I assume that was coordinated with Austria.
To be honest, I don't like it (probably not a surprise to you, and
probably part of why you never mentioned anything about it), but
mainly because with the threat of an AT, I don't like the idea that
Italy may not be able to help distract one or the other of them.
I'm going to be away for a while (I'm the one with the absence) but I
hope we can continue to keep up the communications.
More later.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to all
Yo' -- dere's a lot mora dem grey broadcasts going around agin.
Ceppin' fer Jason "da Kid", we'z all done our five jobs fer Don
Masseyoni an' is made men. We deserve more respect dan dis.
An' tell Ben "da' Shark" dat he don' need ta' send "Snake Eyes" Tony
out on no jobs. I'z da won wat's gonna be dealin' wit family bizness
fer a bit.
--- Tzarface
END ORIGINAL MESSAGE
=================================================
The following translation is brought to you by The Counsel for Clear
Communication through Silly Broadcast Personas (C3-SBP):
"Ben, I'm the one who requested the absence. --- Eric"
Message from Russia to England
What an ugly looking opening for me! Turkey coming after me, Austria
an unknown, France hitting Italy (which would typically be the only
southern country with a vested interest in seeing me alive), and then
I have an absence upcoming. Oh well. I hope given my completely
inoffensive presence in the north that you will follow through with
the promise of fleet Nwy. I can only take so much disappointment! :)
So it looks like in the north I am going to be very reactionary. With
luck I'll get Swe, because unless I'm misreading things Rum is
unlikely to fall in my hands.
It looks like things with you and France are going okay, in the sense
that Eng was uncontested and he's focused south, so I think things
are looking good from your point of view.
What are your thoughts at this point?
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Congratulations for winning the "most valuable ally" award. I read
Turkey's moves as a clear signal he's looking for an AT alliance. And
while I expect that you have encouraged that thinking, I hope and
expect that you are a good enough player to know that you aren't the
one that is stuck and without options.
I got numerous warnings that other players sensed an AT was coming. I
was strongly worried about it myself, given the casual, "I'd rather
not talk details" I got from both you and Jason. But I stuck to the
DMZ, because I would like to work with you as we've discussed. I hear
a lot that you have been worried about Andy (and therefor I assume
you have been worried about RI), but with Andy hamstrung by France
(something I assume you arranged) and me hamstrung by Turkey, I hope
you feel more comfortable that RA vs. T doesn't need to put you in
any danger from Italy. And the prospect of both Turkey and I building
fleets that face each other should also give you a sense of security.
I'm going to leave this a fairly brief statement that I'm obviously
very willing to cooperate with you (got work to do). I'm hoping that
you were serious when talking about working with me, and that we can
cooperate still.
I'm the one that has the long absence, so I'm here today and tomorrow
before disappearing for a while.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
>Let me know your thoughts.
Thought #1 is that I would very much like Sweden! France's move to
Pie is a complete surprise to me, and I can see it meaning a few
things, but none that are good for me. In any case, I assume that I'm
seeing AT cooperation, and am just hoping that Austria is going for
Gre and Ser and not planning to support Turkey to Rum. I haven't
heard from Philippe yet, so don't have any info there. The good news
is that he did not violate the DMZ of Gal, so maybe he wasn't in on
it.
In the north EF are being very trustful of one another, so that's not
good for you. On the chance that I'm seeing an AT formed against me,
and that you may not want to see Austria get big real fast (Italy and
I could fall quickly) I wouldn't mind seeing you pick up three builds
and send an army my way (Mun-Tys/Mun-Boh) if things go really badly
for me. It's a little early to ask for that, but I'd like to discuss
it now to get a sense of whether it's a possibility in your mind
should an AT get rolling quickly.
That's it for now.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Turkey
Jason,
So, what made you do it? I can understand that at some point you've
got to make a decision to attack one way or the other, but I don't
understand why you would decide to attack me without any real
negotiations. From my point of view, every time I've asked you to
talk with me about our options, you've said "let's see how it goes
and talk later." That implies to me that you made up your mind to
attack me early on, without really considering me as an option.
There's lots of reasons for me to want to cooperate with you, and
while your moves are going to make me quite cautious about you, you
haven't yet done anything that commits us to fighting each other. I
really encourage you to at least consider working with me.
Given that France has designs on Italy, you need to get west quickly
if you're going to establish the necessary defensive position to hold
on long term. Clearly Austria is not going to give you many Balkan
centers, and it's not realistic for him to give you many Russian ones
either -- Sev and Mos at best, and that assumes that you two are
cooperating, Austria doesn't stab you for Rum/Bul, and I fall
relatively quickly.
You've got the drop on me, so I'm motivated to be flexible in
negotiations. I promise I'm not going to be a pushover if you press
the attack on me, but I really hope that us fighting is not a
foregone conclusion.
Also, I am the one who requested the absence, so don't read anything
into it when I suddenly go silent this weekend. I'll be back online
towards the end of next week to continue whatever discussions we
start now.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Italy
After comments 1, I keep thinking I should be sending press for you
to Austria. I really hope I don't end up screwing that up!
Well, that was not a pleasant opening. I would guess that Philippe is
more freaked out than either of us guessed, and moved to Pie in order
to support Tri in for Fall. But he could be doing a French version of
the Alpine Chicken as well (or you could try to convince him to do
so) to get position on Germany in Tyl.
Perhaps creating EF cooperation in the north was too successful.
Hopefully I'll have a choice of E and G. Germany's move to Ruh makes
me doubt there's an immediate western triple, but I'm not sure there.
I guess DMZing Gal was also not the best choice. It looks a lot like
AT cooperation in the south, though Austria is not as committed as
Turkey. If we assume Austria attacks Tri and is happy with Ser,
Turkey's probably going get supported to Rum, while cutting Sev. That
makes for an interesting decision on my part. I'm not quite sure yet
how to proceed, but clearly I've got to figure a way to break AT
apart.
If all the above is true, then Ion-Gre might be an interesting
gamble. F Gre does very little good in the short term, but it forces
AT to use two units to press it. It also would help me break into Rum
if AT cooperation continues. If you can want to be really risky, you
could try to negotiate the safety of Ven and then order Apu-Ion-Gre.
Fantastic if successful, horrid otherwise!
If Germany allows me Sweden, I've got some maneuvering room. If he
doesn't I'm not sure what I'll do. I've got some initial thoughts,
but would like to hear your input before sharing my thinking on how I
should respond.
The AFT moves are definitely going to make RI coordination difficult
for a while. The first questions are how confident do we feel that
it's serious and something we need to negotiate our way through, and
the second is how risky a response do we want to make. (See above for
my example of the kind of thing that constitutes a risky response).
We need to talk a lot. I'm the one that's away next week, so we may
have to wait until late in the week to coordinate.
Good luck either way.
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> What an ugly looking opening for me! Turkey coming after me, Austria
> an unknown, France hitting Italy (which would typically be the only
> southern country with a vested interest in seeing me alive), and then
> I have an absence upcoming. Oh well. I hope given my completely
> inoffensive presence in the north that you will follow through with
> the promise of fleet Nwy. I can only take so much disappointment! :)
Well I can assure you of F NWY. So I hope that is some good news.
> So it looks like in the north I am going to be very reactionary. With
> luck I'll get Swe, because unless I'm misreading things Rum is
> unlikely to fall in my hands.
I will support you into SWE in the spring after you are bounced out in the
fall, is my guess. Anyway *if* you are bounced this season I will take care
of it in the next.
> It looks like things with you and France are going okay, in the sense
> that Eng was uncontested and he's focused south, so I think things
> are looking good from your point of view.
Well I guess things are going ok for me. I was surprised at the G/F moves &
things may end up being pretty wild in the west. We'll see.
> What are your thoughts at this point?
I think you are probably right about an A/T. I wonder what the destiny of
Greece is.
Good luck in these troubled times.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
>>Wouldn't that have been clever. If I only had a brain. . .>>
Dont underestimate yourself, just diplome, diplome, diplome.
I am sure FE would have come up with it. You were just a little to "held
back, awaiting what will happen".
>>I asked you a couple of times if you were serious about the triple. I'm
not
sure I would have had the guts to try it, but you did & nearly got out of
the gate cleanly. . .>>
It was to gutsy for Germany even for me.
But on the otherhand I didnt get or go for "clean out of the gate" I was
just reducing risks.
knowingly break the tripple knowing your moves as I did ment that I knew you
could bounce me in BEL or HOL.
So there was never any chance of a clean get away.
Although I can easily pick up HOL or I can opt to try for both which will
pick me up one of them and bounce you in the other.
My motive was purely based on experience. The tripple suggested leaves
Germany very open to an EF attack in the spring.
If I were playing France or England I would have pushed for the PIC, BUR and
convoy to HOL and the taking of BEL option. Basically STAB germany straight
away.
The added bounus would have been Turkey attacking Russia as he did. This
ensured that Germany had three enemies and thus doomen.
>>You put France in a tough spot. You did
not put *me* in a tough spot. And if you want to give me BEL and then want
me to stab you next turn, I can do that. ;-)>>
Thats the spirit ;-), besides you were never in a tough spot. Your moves
were completely natural.
I didnt actually put France in a tough spot but in a challenging spot, which
in regard to my non compliance during a spring move ensured I built in an
escape for him.
I knew of the Austrian/Italian bounce in VEN. I even told France about it. A
very unusual situation. By following through on the move to PIE whilst
Austria remains in TRI clearly points to a FA alliance in Italys eyes. Maybe
France wanted this, maybe he has an alliance with Austria.
He knew they would bounce (if he believed me, which he did else he wouldnt
have gone for the EFG tripple).
It also opens up the door for an AFG. Just making it this far with this
result is worthwhile. But there are greater challenges ahead. Which brings
us to EG.
Ofcourse all could have blown up in my face. FE to PIC/BUR
AI to TYR/BOH. I just got lucky. Which to my experience you need in s1901. I
did make one mistake. If I had known that Turkey would attack Russia then I
would have opted for kie - hol, ber - kie, mun - ruh. This would have
ensured BEL/HOL. You would then have had the choice to bounce DEN or not. I
would have retreated kie rather than bounce to allow me to build two fleets.
But thas is now not the case, we have to look at the board and see what fits
us both best.
As regards to EG the following. You have a choice. Convince France to work
with you against me (I will ofcourse be doing the same). Alternatively
convoy to NWY and move on BAR and I bounce sweden.
Russia doesnt get a build up north. You net NWY and build a fleet in LON or
EDI. You net STP next year.
Sweden can be swapped for Belgium next year to even out our forces.
Even if I build two fleets I still couldnt move on England without Frances
help. This still leaves you plenty of time to see wether the EG is working.
The second choice is; bounce me in Belgium. I would then pick up Holland and
build a fleet in KIE. I would allow Russia into Sweden and he would build a
fleet north. He needs an ally now and germany would look stronger than
england. I help him into nwy by the end of the year.
The third choice is move NTH - ENG and YOR - WAL. Pick up NWY. I bounce
sweden.
You build a fleet in london. I build armies. I support NWY to Sweden in the
spring.
I also support your convoy from wales to PIC using belgium and we take it
from there.
The fourth choice is take Belgium. Now here I run a risk. If you convoy then
an army is dangerous for me. A fleet would be safer.
The good news is you couldnt hold Belgium in the spring (if you convoyed). I
cut support from NTH and attack belgium with two units (hol and ruh). You
would have to guess correctly. Dont forget in this scenario I also have a
fleet in KIE.
The fith choice is we get the EFG going again. I get 3 builds, france gets
two and you get one. Next year you get SWE and STP. I attack PRU/SIL/BAL to
help you. Then we continue on as planned.
I am sure there is a sith, seventh and eigth choice. Which do you prefer. As
I said there is always time to talk.
Do you have any concrete suggestions as to how to continue.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
A lot for me to bite off here. I'll write more later. But for now:
By "clean out of the gate," I meant, you nearly successfully got the triple
started with yourself as Germany. I did not mean, you nearly went west.
After all, /that/ you certainly did perfectly well. :)
More later.
Ben
Message from Austria to Russia
> Congratulations for winning the "most valuable ally" award. I read
> Turkey's moves as a clear signal he's looking for an AT alliance. And
> while I expect that you have encouraged that thinking, I hope and
> expect that you are a good enough player to know that you aren't the
> one that is stuck and without options.
I read the situation the same way, except that I'm not the
type to believe that someone ever run out of options.
> I got numerous warnings that other players sensed an AT was coming. I
> was strongly worried about it myself, given the casual, "I'd rather
> not talk details" I got from both you and Jason. But I stuck to the
> DMZ, because I would like to work with you as we've discussed. I hear
Glad that you did and it's now easy to see why I didn't
want to discuss details. If Turkey had opened Ank-Con,
I would have been more interested in talking about RT
problems then how to split up Turkey or any specific
tactic that didn't fit the board anymore.
> a lot that you have been worried about Andy (and therefor I assume
> you have been worried about RI), but with Andy hamstrung by France
> (something I assume you arranged) and me hamstrung by Turkey, I hope
> you feel more comfortable that RA vs. T doesn't need to put you in
> any danger from Italy. And the prospect of both Turkey and I building
> fleets that face each other should also give you a sense of security.
Just so you know, I had nothing to do with France going
to Pie. In fact, this move has started an interesting
discussion between AGI that ended up with Germany
writing alot of weird stuff, some of wich I expect other
players to received.
> I'm going to leave this a fairly brief statement that I'm obviously
> very willing to cooperate with you (got work to do). I'm hoping that
> you were serious when talking about working with me, and that we can
> cooperate still.
Good to know and I sure was.
> I'm the one that has the long absence, so I'm here today and tomorrow
> before disappearing for a while.
Obviously, there's alot going on and it will take some
time to figure out what's really happening; but if we
haven't had enough time before you leave, we will
simply continue when you come back. When are
you suppose to be back?
Philippe.
P.-S. Just so you know, while I try to reply quickly
to messages, it's not always possible given my internet
access.
Message from England to France and Germany
Gentlemen -
> The damage is minimal as England can still move on BAR and
> convoy YOR to NWY. I can still bounce Russia in SWE. In the spring we can
> take Sweden and in the fall we can take STP.
> Forgive me my trespasses, it was purely down to the jitters
> of a spring move. I ran the most risk of a stab and paranoia
> got the upperhand.
Well there's no question you were the most vulnerable between the three of
us. But there is a change, in that the speed of our selected opening is
limited by the fact that you went west instead of east.
Still I have a modification to propose & I hope we will agree it is
reasonable. One of us - I forget whom - was circulating that I was to take
Belgium with a fleet. Why don't we just go ahead with that plan & I still
convoy the army to Norway. This way we can hopefully regain the element of
surprise when the new German armies go east rather than west. Tony, you
could support yourself into Holland *** Kiel supporting RUH - HOL so as to
avoid future jitters *** while Erik does what he can with Italy.
It may slow us down for the capture of STP but we will have the advantage of
having disguised our intentions a bit longer.
Thoughts?
Ben
Message from Germany to Russia
Hello TzarFace,
> Thought #1 is that I would very much like Sweden!>
I can follow and understand that thought.
>France's move to Pie is a complete surprise to me>
I think it was for France too in hindsight.
>I can see it meaning a few things, but none that are good for me. In any
case, I assume that I'm
> seeing AT cooperation>
I am assuming I see an FA (this would explain PIE) and possible AT
cooperation.
But if AT is the case then why didnt Austria move on GAL? Or was he unsure
of Turkey's alliance?
If he would have moved on GAL then you would really be in trouble.
> and am just hoping that Austria is going for Gre and Ser and not planning
to support Turkey to Rum.>
Thats what it looks like (bul - rum).
Probably accompanied with a move to GAL. He may allow Italy to convoy to GRE
(if he doesnt have a pact with France. But then how do we explain PIE)
Turkey can move on BLA and use ARM to cut SEV support, this would allow
Turkey to take RUM. If you order sev - rum supported by ukr and bounce arm -
sev then he at least gets the BLA. EIther way you are in trouble thre if AT
are working together.
Austria obviously didnt trust Italy to the full hence the bounce in VEN.
He may even have an alliance with France. That would explain the move to
PIE. They have two units on VEN. coincidence? Maybe Philippe was playing
safe and waiting to see if France and Turkay came through.
>I haven't heard from Philippe yet, so don't have any info there. The good
news is that he did not violate the DMZ of Gal, so maybe he wasn't in on
it.>
See above, maybe we was just awaiting the outcome of the spring and to see
if the agreements he had with FT came about. He wouldnt want to attack you
without being sure he had Turkey on his side.
> In the north EF are being very trustful of one another, so that's not
> good for you.>
Well I had a DMZ agreement with France which he kept. England had än "I will
wait and see attitude".
But I admit it doesnt look good for me.
France is to pick up Two builds, England may convoy to NWY or bounce me in
HOL or BEL.
>On the chance that I'm seeing an AT formed against me, and that you may
not want to see Austria get big real fast (Italy and I could fall quickly)
I wouldn't mind seeing you pick up three builds and send an army my way
(Mun-Tys/Mun-Boh) if things go really badly for me.>
I will be going for 3 seen as the situation calls for it, I only expect to
pick up one of them.
> It's a little early to ask for that, but I'd like to discuss it now to get
a sense of whether it's a possibility in your mind
should an AT get rolling quickly.>
Its certainly possible. I would also like to look at me being able to
support you to Norway. I could go to SKA next spring to help achieve this.
> That's it for now.>
I would like to ask one thing. If you are facing AT (i would find it very
strange if Turkey moved on his own).
What will you be doing with MOS? if AT are against you then you wont be
picking up RUM.
This leaves UKR to cover WAR should Austria move to GAL. You pick up sweden
so get a build (WAR).
MOS could move to STP in support of me for next year and for your next
build.
With you in sweden then this ensures two units on NWY for next year. I can
cut support from the NTH.
When I get to SKA there will be three against two so you will take NWY.
I fear I may be facing an EF alliance next spring. I would have enough units
to help out in the WAR area if need be.
Let me know.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
What of this:
Proceed with the EFG but slow it down. Move the fall as follows: France
takes Iberia. You take HOL and DEN. I convoy to BEL & take NWY with a
fleet. Looks natural. The spring is set up as follows, for me: NWY - BAR,
BEL - NTH - NWY. This leaves NTH covered this season, which is nice because
then I don't have the risk of DEN - NTH.
Low risk for you because as you say BEL is not really secure. Low risk for
me because NTH is not compromised. And allows France to explode into the
Med., with surprise in our favor in '02. And even growth in '01. I could
swap out BEL for SWE in '02. You build armies.
Obviously off the top of my head - curious for your thoughts.
Also my fg press for which I just received the receipt was delayed a couple
of hours by the Judge. Hope this doesn't suffer the same fate.
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
Curious - my fg press was delayed a few hours by the judge.
> Still I have a modification to propose & I hope we will agree it is
> reasonable. One of us - I forget whom - was circulating that
> I was to take
> Belgium with a fleet. Why don't we just go ahead with that
> plan & I still convoy the army to Norway.
Oh aren't I silly. This does not work as my army is in YOR.
Anyway I do not think the EFG is broken & indeed I have the following
proposal:
Germany take HOL. France take Iberia. I take BEL *by convoy* and NWY with
a fleet. Natural looking moves. Then in the spring I can move NWY - BAR,
and BEL - NTH - NWY, and Germany can build armies and proceed east as
originally discussed, meanwhile France is poised to enter the Mediterranean
with authority. Within a year or two we should be able to balance out
builds, with some centers pretty obviously available for trade: BEL, SWE,
etc.
Thoughts?
Ben
Message from Austria to Turkey
Hi Jason,
You still haven't got back to me yet, probably over work
or something, but I look forward to hearing about all the
weird stuff you must have received.
Everyone is speculating like crazy, and I have been
carefull not to drop the bean, but they don't have a clue
about our plan. The worst one is Germany who's talking
about a plan to support you to Rum that might see me
stab you by going to Rum myself ;-)
If you wonder why Germany is making up all those things,
it's because I caught him influencing France into attacking
Italy. He's denying it of course, but the west is a mess
because of it. Can you imagine that Germany is doing our
job and we just have to sit back and watch the show ;-)
I also heard from Russia and I expect him to start working
on you to turn the tide. Obviously, I hope he won't be
successfull, but if you start having doubts, just let me know
and we will see what we can do.
Philippe
Message from England to France
Erik -
What do you think of the revised EFG plan? I would be up for anything & my
first choice is attacking Tony. I'm game for pretty much anything but I
wanted to keep the EFG dialogue moving forward.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
>>I meant, you nearly successfully got the triple
started with yourself as Germany.>>
Aha, ok thats the DUTCH in me throwing me in the wrong direction.
But in defence I have to say my plans usually suck. So when you two went for
the EFG alliance as I suggested I then thought "wait a minute, that was to
easy. I am being set up for the slaughter" ;-)
Message from Germany to England and France
>>It may slow us down for the capture of STP but we will have the advantage
of
having disguised our intentions a bit longer.Thoughts?>>
Interesting. At least the powers that be wont think France has lost all
sense of reality it by moving to PIE ;-)
I could live with a fleet in BEL if it means I have been forgiven. I really
think the pair of you should have gone for PIC/BUR and taken BEL & HOL. But
I sure am glad you didnt, ok play wise I came out ok. Just luck. I could now
be sitting in SIL/PRU with you two in PIC/BUR and me commiting suicide in
white press ;-)
I like the idea of disguising our intentions.
Do you guys think that there is an AT in the making? Russia thinks that
there is, he is asking me for Sweden.
Message from Germany to France
I am game which ever way we go, if you say we go for England then we go for
England. If you say EFG then we can give that a shot. Maybe the two of you
will repay me but hey thats diplomacy. Let me know. Any luck with Austria
yet?
Message from Germany to England
I just got the big press suggesting the convoy to belgium along with the
plans for 02.
It would only mean trouble for me if you allowed france into the ENG.
We still have 11 days but all options are open. As the deadline comes nearer
we will come to an agreement.
At worst I will ask for a bounce in belgium. When I feel the pair of you are
not screaming for revenge then we shoul be able to hammer out a plan. I
understand your concern about the north. But leaving DEN to take the north
and only picking up one build (hol or bel) doesnt exactly help me if FE are
against me. So I dont think you run the risk of me moving on nth.
On the otherhand if i agree to belgium with a fleet you could still convoy
in anyway, at least then I know i will be in trouble ;-)
Lets take our time and discuss matters further with input from France.
I am open to most scenarios, if i get screwed I only have myself to blame.
Message from England to France and Germany
> I could live with a fleet in BEL if it means I have been
> forgiven.
As I said in the subsequent e-mail - I can't really do this. But I think
the convoy works just as well, as I couldn't hold BEL even if I wanted to.
> I really think the pair of you should have gone for PIC/BUR and taken
> BEL & HOL. But I sure am glad you didnt, ok play wise I came out ok. Just
> luck. I could now be sitting in SIL/PRU with you two in PIC/BUR and me
> commiting suicide in white press ;-)
Could we do Spring '01 over again please?
> I like the idea of disguising our intentions.
> Do you guys think that there is an AT in the making? Russia
> thinks that there is, he is asking me for Sweden.
My thoughts from looking at the map - the AT is *made*. Russia will never
see RUM. If we are going to try for an EFG then I do not think you should
give him SWE. We have plenty of time to hash it out.
Ben
Message from England to England
> If you and France really got together then I would now be
> in SIL/PRU. He would be in BUR and in PIC. You would be
> convoying to HOL and he would pick up BEL and bounce me
> in MUN. I would be left with egg on my face in PRU/SIL and
> just the one build surrouned by three enemies.
Of course this plan is better than the one I had. My assessment of my own
play in the spring is, I think I did a good job of sorting out the field
position & developing & executing a plan. What I did wrong was, I made a
stupid plan.
Oh well. My position diplomatically & tactically is not really compromised.
On to the fall.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> I just got the big press suggesting the convoy to belgium
> along with the plans for 02.
> It would only mean trouble for me if you allowed france into the ENG.
Um, not likely. (a) France would have to give up a build and (b) I would
have to want a foreign fleet in the *English* Channel.
> At worst I will ask for a bounce in belgium. When I feel the
> pair of you are not screaming for revenge then we shoul be
> able to hammer out a plan.
For what am I seeking revenge? Gains for me are the same either way. I
agree a great deal will depend on France.
> I understand your concern about the north. But leaving DEN to take
> the north and only picking up one build (hol or bel) doesnt exactly
> help me if FE are against me. So I dont think you run the risk of me
> moving on nth.
We can come back to this but I think my proposal gets us on track in the
north beautifully in '02 with the convoy BEL - NWY. Unit efficiency.
> On the otherhand if i agree to belgium with a fleet you could
> still convoy
> in anyway, at least then I know i will be in trouble ;-)
> Lets take our time and discuss matters further with input from France.
> I am open to most scenarios, if i get screwed I only have
> myself to blame.
Tony when I negotiate I negotiate. Next time if you don't like a plan will
you just tell me please & we can find one that's acceptable.
Ok, let's wait for France.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
> Um, not likely. (a) France would have to give up a build and (b) I would
> have to want a foreign fleet in the *English* Channel.>
I ment next spring, but as you point out it does have its risks.
> For what am I seeking revenge? Gains for me are the same either way. I
> agree a great deal will depend on France.>
Agreed
> We can come back to this but I think my proposal gets us on track in the
> north beautifully in '02 with the convoy BEL - NWY. Unit efficiency.>
True....
> Tony when I negotiate I negotiate. Next time if you don't like a plan
will
> you just tell me please & we can find one that's acceptable.>
It was fine up to about 1 hr before the deadline.
Spring 1901 plans dont mean much so most dont make any, its the thought that
counts.
But when/if a stab really comes I will forget to say the plan is not
acceptable ;-)
> Ok, let's wait for France.>
Agreed...he is probably still trying to explain his move to PIE to the other
4 players ;-)
>
> Ben
Tony
Message from Russia to England
>I wonder what the destiny of Greece is.
I'd say that's 16K of the $64,000 question down here. I've asked a
couple of people, but no one's answered yet.
Hey, I never congratulated you on your ex-teams' fabulous (though
referee-aided) victory on Monday. While watching all my teams suck
rocks, it was kinda' fun to see the ex-Baltimore Colts with that
miraculous comeback. I know it's hard to understand why I would take
any pleasure in Tampa Bay's defense getting toasted big time, but
there you have it.
I appreciate the offer of support into Swe if needed. Since Rum is
unlikely, I'm likely to be cap-in-hand looking for dots in the short
term!
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Austria
>[...]except that I'm not the type to believe that someone ever run
>out of options.
True. I meant more that he's put a pretty strong stake in the ground.
With your moves, you could still try for Gre, help either of us with
Rum, or take Gal. He has to do some fancy footwork to get into a
position to be able to threaten you, or be able to work with me.
Maybe he's up to it, but it's a hard starting point for RT relations.
>Just so you know, I had nothing to do with France going
>to Pie. In fact, this move has started an interesting
>discussion between AGI that ended up with Germany
>writing alot of weird stuff, some of wich I expect other
>players to received.
Interesting. I mean, obviously you had SOMETHING to do with it,
because I think everyone on the board knew that you were bouncing
Ven, so it was inferable that France could safely attack Pie. Doesn't
bode so well for Germany, as it seems to signal an EF. And your
protestations aside, most of the board is convinced there's an AF as
well.
>I'm hoping that
> > you were serious when talking about working with me, and that we can
> > cooperate still.
>
>Good to know and I sure was.
Good. I'll be in and out today and perhaps tomorrow preparing for
travel. We can communicate as best as possible during that time and
when I return.
>Obviously, there's alot going on and it will take some
>time to figure out what's really happening; but if we
>haven't had enough time before you leave, we will
>simply continue when you come back. When are
>you suppose to be back?
I expect to be back no later than Friday, but that's not for sure,
hence the extension request to the following Monday (that, plus I
don't know how much people will be around on the weekend).
>Just so you know, while I try to reply quickly
>to messages, it's not always possible given my internet
>access.
Trust me, I understand. It isn't so much my internet connection,
though, as it is sudden spurts of real-life activity.
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> But when/if a stab really comes I will forget to say the plan is not
> acceptable ;-)
Heh. Thanks for the warning - I thought when you stab, you send smoke
signals first.
Ok, back to waiting.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Bye the way I hope you are explaining his move to PIE as signs of a possible
FA or FT or insanity?
Its always good to misuse known facts.
Message to all
WIDDLE WABBITS
Widdle Wabbits (A Thory To Warm Your Heart)
A precious little girl walks into a pet shop and asks in the
sweetest little lisp, "Excuthe me, mithter, do you keep widdle
wabbits?"
As the shopkeeper's heart melts, he gets down on his knees, so that
he's on her level, and asks, "Do you want a widdle white wabbit or a
thoft and fuwwy bwack wabbit or maybe one like that cute widdle bwown
wabbit overthere?"
She, in turn blushes, rocks on her heels, puts her hands on her
knees, leans forward and says in a quiet voice, "I don't fink my pet python
weally gives a thit."
JUGERNAUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTT
Message from Russia to Germany
> >France's move to Pie is a complete surprise to me
>
>I think it was for France too in hindsight.
:) Austria says he didn't push for it. I told him that whether he did
or not, people are going to expect that he did.
>>I can see it meaning a few things, but none that are good for me. In any
>>case, I assume that I'm seeing AT cooperation
>
>I am assuming I see an FA (this would explain PIE) and possible AT
>cooperation.
I agree. I also think that Philippe has done a good job of making
himself the non-aggressive partner in each pairing. There's still
hope that I can work with Austria, so I haven't given up yet.
>But if AT is the case then why didnt Austria move on GAL? Or was he unsure
>of Turkey's alliance? If he would have moved on GAL then you would
>really be in trouble.
My thinking is that:
1) He wanted to see Turkey commit.
2) It gives him the flexibility to choose between R and T as allies
3) He's more worried about getting established than immediately
attacking me. If he went to Gal, he would get only one build. Had
France not hit Italy, Austria'd be sure to create an RI in that case.
>Either way you are in trouble thre if AT are working together.
We're in agreement there.
>[Austria] may even have an alliance with France. That would explain
>the move to PIE. They have two units on VEN. coincidence? Maybe
>Philippe was playing safe and waiting to see if France and Turkay
>came through.
As noted above, I think the board picture points to all of these things.
>France is to pick up Two builds, England may convoy to NWY or bounce me in
>HOL or BEL.
Or both!
>I will be going for 3 seen as the situation calls for it, I only expect to
>pick up one of them.
>
>Its [Mun going south] certainly possible. I would also like to look
>at me being able to support you to Norway. I could go to SKA next
>spring to help achieve this.
And then I could help you into the Nth, which in the end helps both of us.
>I would like to ask one thing. If you are facing AT (i would find it very
>strange if Turkey moved on his own). What will you be doing with
>MOS? if AT are against you then you wont be picking up RUM. This
>leaves UKR to cover WAR should Austria move to GAL. You pick up
>sweden so get a build (WAR).MOS could move to STP in support of me
>for next year and for your next build.
I am considering this, but I will be honest with you: I am very
concerned about leaving my southern front too wide open. What I am
really thinking is that I will use Mos to backup Sev. If I don't get
Rum, then with Arm and Bla, I need Mos in order to hold Sev against
Turkey (since A Gal can cut support from Ukr. So I will probably keep
Mos in the south. If I get one build, it will probably go into War,
as you suggest. If I get two, I would put one in War to protect Gal,
and one in StP to work with you.
Basically it comes down to this: I can live with losing StP to an
English fleet (if we attack Swe-Nwy) and still have a presence in
this game, but I don't know that I can lose Sev to an AT alliance and
still survive.
>When I get to SKA there will be three against two so you will take NWY.
>I fear I may be facing an EF alliance next spring. I would have enough units
>to help out in the WAR area if need be.
Ah. That is a good point. I will still expect to keep Mos in the
south for now, but if you get enough units to help me with War, then
I can at least consider building in StP instead of in War.
>Let me know.
It will be largely dependent on what AT say and do. As noted, I'm not
likely to move to StP, but I will consider putting the build from Swe
into StP. The best thing you could do is convince Austria to side
with me, in which case I can take Rum, put a unit in StP to get you
the Nth, and still have influence in the south.
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Germany
> Bye the way I hope you are explaining his move to PIE as signs of a possible
> FA or FT or insanity?
> Its always good to misuse known facts.
I am saying either (a) I am still trying to figure it out or (b) I think he was tricked by Germany. What are you saying?
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
> Hey, I never congratulated you on your ex-teams' fabulous (though
> referee-aided) victory on Monday. While watching all my teams suck
> rocks, it was kinda' fun to see the ex-Baltimore Colts with that
> miraculous comeback. I know it's hard to understand why I would take
> any pleasure in Tampa Bay's defense getting toasted big time, but
> there you have it.
(a) We in Baltimore do not have any relationship to the Indianapolis Colts. It is just another team.
(b) Nobody likes Tampa Bay. This is because Warren Sapp is a loud-mouthed thug.
(c) Last year we lost a game when we had the same flag ("leverage"? Is that what it was?) thrown *two times* on *consecutive misses* of the *same damned kick.* So it's not like it's never happened, and it's also not like it's never happened when it counted. It's a rule and sometimes they throw that flag. Too bad for us last year. Too bad for Tampa this year, though I think everyone agrees they should *never* have been in overtime.
> I appreciate the offer of support into Swe if needed. Since Rum is
> unlikely, I'm likely to be cap-in-hand looking for dots in the short
> term!
Agreed.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
And thtill we wait......iths bed time...cya thoon
Message from Austria to Italy
Andy,
It seem Tony's talk is good enough that people believe
there's an AF going on. Now, I'm not as interested to
discuss Tony's skill as to learn if you are one of the
believer.
Philippe
Message from Austria to France
> That's the story. Hope it's been enlightening. Andy's mad, but seems to
> accept my reasoning. The question is: what now?
Hard to know at the moment. Tony has been milking
this for all that it's worth and I have started hearing
about an AF alliance. This isn't necessarily bad for
us, but it doesn't look good either.
At a mininum, I would suggest you start thinking
about Gas-Bur as Ruh isn't necessarily going where
we think.
What does England think about all this by the way?
Philippe
Message from Turkey to all
I only move in accordance with the voices in my head....
jason
Message from Turkey to Germany
Good to hear from you. Enjoying your broadcasts. ;-)
I appreciate your concern. It looks like you and France have a solid
agreement up there!
So, what are your thoughts on Sweden?
jason
Message from Turkey to Austria
So far, so good. Sorry if I took too long to reply. As you said, busy
day at work.
Russia and Germany already sent me messages, with the obvious (sometimes
crazy) contents. I am a little concerned France getting strong quickly,
as that will compromise our position in the Med. Otherwise, things look
fine.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Well, the war begins.
I'm a little surprised at the apparent FG coordination, especially
against Italy. From what I'm being told, that was Germany's idea. With
FG both getting two builds, do you think they might turn them on you, or
head east?
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
Well, that sucked!
Anything I can do to help right now? I don't know of any plan by Austria
to help France, but I can try and talk him out of it if need be.
jason
Message from Turkey to Turkey
Well, I trust the observers are eagerly picking apart the first turn.
From my perspective, it didn't go as well as I'd hoped. Italy won't be
getting any builds (likely), so that will hurt going after Austria.
Russia kept all his units together, instead of spreading out. That helps
diplomatically (I can claim he hosed me), but makes taking Sev harder.
For their parts, FG seem to have everything under control.
Onward!
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
I understand your frustration, but from my perspective AT is way better
than Rt. For that matter, you didn't exactly move in a standard Rt
formation, either! Keeping your armies in the south makes it seem that
you were headed my way.
I'm always willing to negotiate, so let me know how you're prefer to
proceed.
jason
Message from Germany to England
> I am saying either (a) I am still trying to figure it out or (b) I think he was tricked by Germany. What are you saying?>
A possible FA or FT or just plane insane ;-)
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Well, the war begins.
Here we go!
> I'm a little surprised at the apparent FG coordination, especially
> against Italy. From what I'm being told, that was Germany's idea. With
> FG both getting two builds, do you think they might turn them
> on you, or head east?
Hard to say. We will learn a great deal in the fall. I am trying to get
two builds myself; we will see how it goes.
I think the spring went very well for you. I am hopeful Germany will bounce
Russia in Sweden for you & I will try to find out his intentions. Right now
he is non-committal; I think he is waiting to figure out how he wants to
proceed in the west.
Ben
Message from Austria to Turkey
> So far, so good. Sorry if I took too long to reply. As you said, busy
> day at work.
No problem. I know we have some time ahead of us, but
can you confirm Arm-Sev, Ank-Bla & Bul s Bud-Rum?
> Russia and Germany already sent me messages, with the obvious (sometimes
> crazy) contents. I am a little concerned France getting strong quickly,
> as that will compromise our position in the Med. Otherwise, things look
> fine.
My take on things is that he will probably get attacked by
either England or Germany, and maybe both.
Philippe
Message from Austria to England
Hi Ben,
It seem Tony is doing a hell of a job coming up with
rumours of all kind, one of wich is that there's an AF
alliance going.
Heard anything?
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> It seem Tony is doing a hell of a job coming up with
> rumours of all kind, one of wich is that there's an AF
> alliance going.
Yeah, Tony's a piece of work, isn't he. I feel like I need hip boots to get
through his press. I have no particular reason to think there is an AF &
the fact that Tony might be spreading the rumor doesn't make it more likely.
. .
I think your moves are explained by an AT, is my opinion. Fine with me, as
I've said all along; we will see what happens in the fall.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Right now my thinking is, get us each two builds in '01, and look at a stab
against Germany in '02 or soon after.
What do you think?
Ben
Message from Austria to Russia
> True. I meant more that he's put a pretty strong stake in the ground.
> With your moves, you could still try for Gre, help either of us with
> Rum, or take Gal. He has to do some fancy footwork to get into a
> position to be able to threaten you, or be able to work with me.
> Maybe he's up to it, but it's a hard starting point for RT relations.
Just to make sure, you don't actually expect me to support
you in Rum now? In an AR alliance, you need a fleet in Rum,
not an army, and Ukr can easily support Sev-Rum while Mos
cover Sev.
> Interesting. I mean, obviously you had SOMETHING to do with it,
> because I think everyone on the board knew that you were bouncing
> Ven, so it was inferable that France could safely attack Pie. Doesn't
> bode so well for Germany, as it seems to signal an EF. And your
> protestations aside, most of the board is convinced there's an AF as
> well.
I didn't see Tri-Ven as a call for Mar-Pie, but if most of the
board thing so, there's not much I can do about it. I suppose
we will have to wait for the fall's moves for people to get this
out of their head.
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
> >5. Italy
> >
> >I haven't seen Italy make much happen yet. He's tried to get Russia to
> >fight Austria, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
> >
> I praised Andy for his excellent play in 'comments', keeping Austria in
> the draw was a miracle. But I largely agree with Eric that the
> diplomatic situation was quite special then, where his one-liners, (with
> the ellipses and missing question marks :-) ) - in other words, his FtF
> play adopted to PBEM - worked well. In this game he has yet to show
> that his repertoire is wider than that, otherwise he will not get far.
> I agree that diplomatically he has not accomplished very much and apart
> from the move to Armenia he has little to be happy about.
>
Sorry I am late reading messages, but just had to comment on this.
It's like saying "he won the lottery but that's all"
I actually agree that such a terse style is not an advantage, but I'm not
sure that Italy could have avoided the French move to pie, and I'm not sure that
he could easily persuade Austria out of tri-ven. That given, he has done
pretty well in my opinion.
Though I agree that his press will need to get better.
Ash
Message from Observer to Observer
> To be seen. Tony's arguments to France were quite convincing. The
> reason: they are all true. France has the option of accepting an honest
> German offer for an alliance. Or he has the option to decline it
> if/becaue he realizes that Tony arranged the nasty conflict with Italy
> and that he will be the minor power of the alliance. Both options are
> playable and neither seems to me obviously wrong.
I suppose this depends on your style. For an "alliance" player, it is
important to feel that he can trust his ally. How much will France ever think he can
trust Germany? This is spring 1901, and although loss of tempo is bad, I think
France has a perfectly feasible alliance with England, and the big advantage
is that the trust has not been tarnished.
Ash
Message from Observer to Observer
In a message dated 09/10/03 15:31:31 GMT Daylight Time, politas@excite.com
writes:
> This means that Germany lied to everybody, absolutely everybody, about
> his orders. And managed to do that while using possibly the most
> standard opening for Germany! Impressive. Two builds for sure.
> Unfortunately, he seems to have restricted himself to GR or even more
> southern alliances. I suspect this may well solidify the EF against
> him. How can they trust him? He's come off as just being a practical
> joker, saying anything to get a laugh. One wonders if Tony is taking
> this game seriously. Still and all, if he really is such an all-fired
> good player, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what he does.
>
This is more my feeling. BUT I realise that seeing all the press gives a very
different impression than seeing just the press for your power, so maybe this
is influencing me. If Tony gets either E or F to trust him long term now,
then he will be showing how good he is. I can't help thinking he has set himself
more of a challenge than he needed to. After all, he could have got all the
English moves without all the lies. So the lies were just to get F to attack E.
Will F realise this?
Ash
Message from France to England
>
> Erik -
> Right now my thinking is, get us each two builds in '01, and look at a
> stab
> against Germany in '02 or soon after.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Ben
That's exactly what I'm thinking. Germany is encouraging me to keep going
after Italy, but I don't think that's wise. Even with Austria's help, I
don't have the firepower to win down there without leaving myself
vulnerable somewhere else.
What's more, I don't think Austria's even interested in helping -- he's
got some sort of scheme cooking, and wants to keep Italy on friendly terms
in case he needs a "saviour" (his words, not mine). I would think this
indicated a an AI alliance of sorts, but Italy's open and other info leads
me to believe this isn't the case.
I was mad busy at work yesterday afternoon and didn't have a chance to
respond to all the dialogue between you and Germany. I'll write more this
afternoon.
Erik
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
>
> I am game which ever way we go, if you say we go for England then we go
> for
> England. If you say EFG then we can give that a shot. Maybe the two of
> you
> will repay me but hey thats diplomacy. Let me know. Any luck with
> Austria
> yet?
No, no luck with Austria yet. He seems to think that Italy is going to
save him from some future evil, and doesn't want to antagonize him. I
haven't been able to hammer away at him much, as I had a busy afternoon
yesterday (which is also why I'm late getting back to you).
I will get back to you with a detailed response on EFG vs FG in a couple
of hours. Just wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring you.
Erik
Message from Italy to Austria
> It seem Tony's talk is good enough that people believe
> there's an AF going on. Now, I'm not as interested to
> discuss Tony's skill as to learn if you are one of the
> believer.
Let me answer this in an odd way.
If I say No...I dont think there is an AF, it opens the door for there to
be one.
If I say Yes....you have no reason NOT to have one.
I think Tony would like me to think there is an AF, I think Tony would
like you to think there is an IR....and France and IE, Russia an AT....
you get the picture.
This is Tony's game, always remove the attention from himself to someone
else.
Andy
Message from Austria to Italy
> This is Tony's game, always remove the attention from himself to someone
> else.
OK. The reason I asked anyway, it's because you didn't get back
to me about Turkey. I don't need you to let me in on how you
wish to handle France; but I need to know how soon you planned
on being available to go after Turkey.
As for our loyalty to AI, we will know for sure by the end of the
year, so I'm not worried.
Philippe.
P.-S. My fleet is available if you need me to support Apu-Ven
while you cover Tus from Ven.
Message from France to Austria
>
> At a mininum, I would suggest you start thinking
> about Gas-Bur as Ruh isn't necessarily going where
> we think.
What makes you say this? Conjecture? Or do you have reason to believe it's
happening?
> What does England think about all this by the way?
You should ask him. As far as I know, he's also irked at Germany, but his
plan to head north may still be intact. I belive, though, that he and
Germany are going to end up dividing up Belgium and Ruhr.
Look, I'm not in the position I planned to be in. In Diplomacy, are we
ever, really? I am, however, in a position in which you and I, if we
thought it possible, could actually take on Italy. It would mean dealing
with the possiblity of Germany and/or England attacking and me having to
deal with a two- or three-front war. Assuming I can prevent that, though,
we could feasibly do this.
It's ultimately up to you. If you're not into taking out a neighbor who
will eventually be an adversary, then I'm sure as heck not going to do it
on my own with England and Germany up in the air. However, if you want to
take advantage of my current position, I'm willing to work with you.
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
I have one major concern right now. You should be aware of it.
Assuming F Mao - Por, Gas - Spa and Pie - Mar, what if I suddenly see:
A Ruhr - Bur
A Kiel - Hol
A Yor - Nth - Bel
Then I've got to be a little worried. Why would Germany cross into
Burgundy unless he'd already spoken about it with England? A lone attack
on France by Germany would be foolish, as England would certainly be
pulled in on one side or the other, and he wouldn't want to run the risk
of you choosing the other side.
So the only thing I can do then is build an army in Paris and a fleet in
Brest, and if I see Ruhr - Bur, that's exactly what I'll do. Then it gets
ugly. You'd take the channel, but I d hold onto Mao for a while. We'd butt
heads in Picardy; Germany and I would butt heads in Burgundy. I'd be okay
down south; Italy's too worried about Austria to head boldly West and
doesn't want to see Tony succeed anyway. Meanwhile, Russia's going to see
you abandon the North and think that maybe it's worthwhile to patch things
up with Turkey.
All I'm saying is that it wouldn't be wise of you to work with Germany
against me. You won't get very far very quickly, and if I have to give up
gains, you will be the last to get them; Tony's simply more likely to take
Paris and Marseilles, especially if he gets the jump on Burgundy. And,
frankly, he's probably the biggest beneficiary in any situation in which
you and I fight, especially when Russia shows no interest in dealing with
him early and Austria's almost a puppet.
I just wanted to point this out now, before Tony's spent too much time
trying to tempt you to the dark side. I'm sure he's offered an EG the same
way that he's brought up an FG since day one. He knows he needs to keep us
split up -- his first moves are evidence enough of that. We've got to take
him out at some point, the sooner the better. I'd like to think the
picture I just painted makes that clear, and if you'd like to provide the
same reasoning to keep me from succumbing to Tony's charms, I welcome it.
Let's finish what we started here.
Erik
Message from Russia to Russia
>Message from jasonab@acm.org as Turkey to Russia in 'c2':
>
>I understand your frustration, but from my perspective AT is way better
>than Rt. For that matter, you didn't exactly move in a standard Rt
>formation, either! Keeping your armies in the south makes it seem that
>you were headed my way.
>
>I'm always willing to negotiate, so let me know how you're prefer to
>proceed.
Lovely.
I hope this is just a bunch of bullsh*t meant to confuse me. What a
crappy player to land next to. He comes in thinking auto-alliance, is
afraid of me for doing what he asked me to do, is unwilling to
negotiate anything but a bounce in the Bla, and worse thinks he
actually is very flexible and "always willing to negotiate".
Regardless, makes it clear that honoring the DMZ in Gal was the right
decision to make.
I just want to smack this guy. I'm going off to do some work and
count to ten a few times before responding.
Thank you all for your time. We'll just keep a tab running and I'll
reimburse you all for the counseling later.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
>from my perspective AT is way better than Rt.
On what basis do you say this? Did you come into the game with
essentially an auto-alliance of AT in mind?
By writing "Rt" rather than "RT" I assume you are implying that RT is
always in Russia's favor. But RT does not require Turkey to be a
junior partner. And that's what negotiation allows addressing .
>I understand your frustration,
To be honest, I don't think you do. I don't like that you chose AT
over RT, but that's disappointing, not frustrating. What's
frustrating is that you have some personal notion of what it means to
have an RT, and you have decided that that idea, whatever it is, must
be what mine is, and it must be bad for you compared to what you
think an AT is.
But I don't have preconceived notions about what RT cooperation is
other than us agreeing to moves that we think will benefit us both
and allow us both to move west quickly. I have no idea what you think
makes RT bad for Turkey -- even after your message saying that it is
-- so I don't know how to offer an arrangement that works better for
you. From my perspective, it's like you came in to play a no press
game with me, and that's what's frustrating.
>For that matter, you didn't exactly move in a standard Rt formation, either!
This is circular reasoning. You specifically asked, several times,
that I not do anything that looked like there was RT cooperation.
Please don't try to make me out as being antagonistic for following
your request.
>Keeping your armies in the south makes it seem that you were headed my way.
The "standard" method through which Russia attacks Turkey is to take
Rum with a fleet, build F Sev, then take Bla, Arm and Ank with those
fleets. A Mos is irrelevant to that sequence, and can just as easily
be built in 1903 as put there in 1901. The only reason A Mos is
useful is as defense for Sev in case Turkish puts an army in Arm. It
has the added flexibility of being able to defend War if Austria goes
to Gal, which is important to me, though largely irrelevant to your
concerns.
>I'm always willing to negotiate, so let me know how you're prefer to proceed.
I hope I explained this above, but in case it's not clear, I'd like
to know why it is that RT is Rt in your mind. Knowing this, we can
talk about ways to make it into an actual RT and work together.
Without knowing this, I don't know what I can offer in terms of
arrangements or concessions that will make a difference.
--- Tzarface
Message from Austria to France
> What makes you say this? Conjecture? Or do you have reason to believe it's
> happening?
Not specifically, it's just the way things seem to be going.
With Norway secure, England will be looking for a
second build, wich will probably be Belgium (Germany
can make sure of Holland and even though it could happen,
I don't see why he would deny England his second build).
No problem there yet, but if Germany get in Bur, you will
have a hard time getting him out of France and risk seeing
England joined in the attack sooner or later. What else is
he suppose to do anyway, fight Germany all alone?
> You should ask him. As far as I know, he's also irked at Germany, but his
> plan to head north may still be intact. I belive, though, that he and
> Germany are going to end up dividing up Belgium and Ruhr.
If England doesn't like Germany's style of play, this could
be good for you; but I wouldn't bet everything on it. At
least, with a block of Ruh-Bur or an army in Bur yourselves,
you have something to show up with in a discussion for an
EF alliance, even if your participation in an EF is limited to
supporting England while you have fun in Italy.
> Look, I'm not in the position I planned to be in. In Diplomacy, are we
> ever, really? I am, however, in a position in which you and I, if we
> thought it possible, could actually take on Italy. It would mean dealing
> with the possiblity of Germany and/or England attacking and me having to
> deal with a two- or three-front war. Assuming I can prevent that, though,
> we could feasibly do this.
Like I said previously, this is worth examining; but I must
tell you that an attack on Venice this fall is out of the
question because of the high percentage of failure. Anyway,
the best french attack of Italy would see you go for Gas-Spa,
Mao-Wes & Pie-Tus this fall.
> It's ultimately up to you. If you're not into taking out a neighbor who
> will eventually be an adversary, then I'm sure as heck not going to do it
> on my own with England and Germany up in the air. However, if you want to
> take advantage of my current position, I'm willing to work with you.
Just a precision, I'm willing to work with you whether we
go after Italy now or later. It's just a question of timing. As
a friend, I must tell you that things don't look good at the
moment and I feel that an invasion of Italy wouldn't last
long as you would make too tempting a target for EG; but
if you want, you can try having it both ways by going for
Pie-Tus, Gas-Bur & Mao-Spa(sc).
Think about it and I will do the same on my side,
Philippe.
P.-S. As always, if you hear anything else, please let me know.
Message from England to France
Erik -
> That's exactly what I'm thinking. Germany is encouraging me to keep going
> after Italy, but I don't think that's wise. Even with Austria's help, I
> don't have the firepower to win down there without leaving myself
> vulnerable somewhere else.
This is true. What I would like you to do is, support my proposal to
convoy to BEL & get two builds each this year. I think that is the only
way we will stay in striking distance of a position in which we can attack
Germany. We will be walking a fine line, though, not having a I/F war. I
will try to intercede with Andy to keep him from engaging you if you want;
if you don't care then I'll leave it be. Have you told him about our
lovely experience with Tony?
> What's more, I don't think Austria's even interested in helping -- he's
> got some sort of scheme cooking, and wants to keep Italy on friendly terms
> in case he needs a "saviour" (his words, not mine). I would think this
> indicated a an AI alliance of sorts, but Italy's open and other info leads
> me to believe this isn't the case.
I think you've summed up the situation correctly.
> I was mad busy at work yesterday afternoon and didn't have a chance to
> respond to all the dialogue between you and Germany. I'll write more this
> afternoon.
:-) Write when you can. Some days I'm away from my desk, some days I'm
not. No sweat.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I have one major concern right now. You should be aware of it.
>
> Assuming F Mao - Por, Gas - Spa and Pie - Mar, what if I suddenly see:
>
> A Ruhr - Bur
> A Kiel - Hol
> A Yor - Nth - Bel
Good question.
> Then I've got to be a little worried. Why would Germany cross into
> Burgundy unless he'd already spoken about it with England? A lone attack
> on France by Germany would be foolish, as England would certainly be
> pulled in on one side or the other, and he wouldn't want to run the risk
> of you choosing the other side.
Your question is good & it's not easy for me to answer, because I cannot
promise Tony won't order RUH - BUR. But I can tell you this. I would
rather have you for an ally than Tony. Look at the press you write & look
at the press he writes. Tony is (a) pompous, (b) untrustworthy, and (c)
irritating. I would *much* rather work with you than with him. There are
other reasons, besides Tony, which make you a better ally for me. If I
tried to ally with Tony I would be Mr. Unpopular on the map, beginning with
Andy but including pretty much everyone. Also if I tried to ally with Tony
it would not only be good for Tony but it would be good for Andy, too,
because a strong France limits Italian growth. Just what I need - our two
hobby luminaries being the strongest powers on the map, by my hand.
The thought of being allied with Tony gives me shivers, and I don't mean
the good kind. I mean nails on the chalkboard. And I've got a hunch that
you feel the same. So, on this map, could I try to attack you? I suppose.
But I don't want to, and I hope I've taken the steps necessary to show you
why not. For heaven's sake, if you still have questions or something's not
clear, let me know.
> So the only thing I can do then is build an army in Paris and a fleet in
> Brest, and if I see Ruhr - Bur, that's exactly what I'll do. Then it gets
> ugly. You'd take the channel, but I d hold onto Mao for a while. We'd butt
> heads in Picardy; Germany and I would butt heads in Burgundy. I'd be okay
> down south; Italy's too worried about Austria to head boldly West and
> doesn't want to see Tony succeed anyway. Meanwhile, Russia's going to see
> you abandon the North and think that maybe it's worthwhile to patch things
> up with Turkey.
Um, Erik, I have no idea what Germany will do. Please do not plan on
throwing away our alliance if Tony does something unexpected. After all,
he did something unexpected in the spring, too.
> All I'm saying is that it wouldn't be wise of you to work with Germany
> against me. You won't get very far very quickly, and if I have to give up
> gains, you will be the last to get them; Tony's simply more likely to take
> Paris and Marseilles, especially if he gets the jump on Burgundy. And,
> frankly, he's probably the biggest beneficiary in any situation in which
> you and I fight, especially when Russia shows no interest in dealing with
> him early and Austria's almost a puppet.
Your tactical analysis is excellent. I agree that I would get the short
end of the stick. I will go you one better: I think tactically your *best
defense* would be to deny me centers while Germany picked off one or two.
It would destabilize the EG alliance.
I don't mind giving you this advice. Because the scenario in which it
would be relevant - an EG against F - is not happening.
All I'm planning on right now is:
1. Belgium
2. the North
3. stab Germany with you when possible
Why would I attack you? This plan suits me just fine.
> I just wanted to point this out now, before Tony's spent too much time
> trying to tempt you to the dark side. I'm sure he's offered an EG the same
> way that he's brought up an FG since day one. He knows he needs to keep us
> split up -- his first moves are evidence enough of that. We've got to take
> him out at some point, the sooner the better. I'd like to think the
> picture I just painted makes that clear, and if you'd like to provide the
> same reasoning to keep me from succumbing to Tony's charms, I welcome it.
> Let's finish what we started here.
Of course he's written me about an EG. He's also written about an AF and
an AFG and an RT and an AT. I think he takes prescription medication
before he sits down to write press.
You and I see the same thing in Tony. Now is the time for you to trust
someone & I hope it will be me.
Ben
p.s. I see the receipt for the press I sent a couple of hours ago just
came back. So perhaps you just got the press. This one (I hope) is fresh
when you receive it.
Message from England to England
> Erik -
> > I have one major concern right now. You should be aware of it.
> >
> > Assuming F Mao - Por, Gas - Spa and Pie - Mar, what if I suddenly see:
> >
> > A Ruhr - Bur
> > A Kiel - Hol
> > A Yor - Nth - Bel
> Good question.
Most important press I've written so far. I hope it did the trick.
Ben
Message from France to England
> Um, Erik, I have no idea what Germany will do. Please do not plan on
> throwing away our alliance if Tony does something unexpected. After
> all,
> he did something unexpected in the spring, too.
Don't worry -- I'm sure he'll send a broadcast out with his plans.
Seriously, I agree with all you've said, but I think it helps keeps an
alliance in better shape if you identify and acknowledge the ways it can
go bad. Such analysis demonstrates some thought and energy on the part of
both parties, which is at least a sign that they've got a commitment to
it.
>
> All I'm planning on right now is:
> 1. Belgium
> 2. the North
> 3. stab Germany with you when possible
> Why would I attack you? This plan suits me just fine.
Agreed. I will go for two builds and, in all likelihood, pull back from
Piedmont to Marseilles. Austria is completely unwilling to attack Italy
right now, and having an army in Tyrolia just gives Andy an opening to
attack me without doing much good against Munich. We will have a more
difficult time getting into Germany now, to be sure, but it pays to be a
little conservative right now. We should start figuring out a plan of
attack, though.
If we're lucky, Germany will end up with A Ruhr, A Hol and F Den, building
A Mun and (probably) fleet Berlin, though perhaps we can convince him to
put an army there, too. I can build A Par and F/A Bre or A Mar. I would
prefer to see you build A Lon and F Edi, but that's without knowing what
you're planning.
Hmm. On further consideration, maybe I *should* move to Tyrolia. With a
build of A Par and A Mar, that gives me a lock on Burgundy in the S02 (A
Mar - Bur, A Par S A Mar - Bur, A Tyr - Mun breaks support for Mun S Ruhr -
Bur). Intriguing. Thoughts?
We really need some pressure from Russia when the time comes. Any idea
what the heck the Turk is up to? That move to Armenia, while a good sign
that we don't have to worry about a Juggernaut, throws a wrench into
things.
Erik
Message from France to Austria
Phillipe:
What you say makes complete sense. I know you're just as interested in
keeping Italy under control as I am, I don't doubt that for a minute.
Indeed, I don't think I'm primed for a fight with him right now, but given
my position, I wanted to lay the option out there.
I will plan on withdrawing to Marseilles for now to protect against
Germany. I'll also try to talk with England a bit more (though at this
point, it's too early to say what will happen in the west -- we could
still see EG, EF, FG or a triple, in theory ;)). When the time comes to
deal with Italy, we'll talk further.
On an unrelated note, do you have any idea what Turkey's move to Armenia
was all about? That was not what I expected, I can tell you that much. Do
you have any kind of relationship with him? Does anybody?
Erik
Message from France to Turkey
Jason:
Bold opening. You must have some wacky voices in your head. What are you
planning on doing with that army in Armenia now? Pulling it back, like I
have to do with A Pie ;)?
Erik
Message from France to Italy
Andy:
Thanks for at least understanding my mistake. I can assure you that I will
not be seeking further gains in the Italian peninsula (right now ;) ).
England and I are both very concerned about Tony, and Tony and I are
concerned about England, and I'm sure Tony and England are concerned about
me. Not the best time for a Franco-Italian war.
I have not set any plans in motion yet, but I am considering an intriguing
option in which A Pie moves to Tyrolia. Would you be willing to consider
or even support such a move?
And do you have any idea what the story with the Turk's move to Armenia
was?
Erik
Message from Austria to France
> What you say makes complete sense. I know you're just as interested in
> keeping Italy under control as I am, I don't doubt that for a minute.
> Indeed, I don't think I'm primed for a fight with him right now, but given
> my position, I wanted to lay the option out there.
>
> I will plan on withdrawing to Marseilles for now to protect against
> Germany. I'll also try to talk with England a bit more (though at this
> point, it's too early to say what will happen in the west -- we could
> still see EG, EF, FG or a triple, in theory ;)). When the time comes to
> deal with Italy, we'll talk further.
OK. I'm at your disposal.
> On an unrelated note, do you have any idea what Turkey's move to Armenia
> was all about? That was not what I expected, I can tell you that much. Do
> you have any kind of relationship with him? Does anybody?
In order. He's attacking Russia. I was worried about an RT
myself. I try staying on friendly term with him so he wouldn't
go for an RT alliance. I presume that he is in relation with
others, but I couldn't tell you the extent of it.
I suppose you were hoping for more then that, but I spent
most of my time trying to insure I wouldn't make a quick
exit, so my ability to know what others are thinking is pretty
limited. A good example of that is that I misread you last
turn. While I thought I was open with you and that an attack
on Italy would have to wait until I knew there were no RT,
wich doesn't seem to be a problem anymore, you surprised
me by attacking Italy all by yourself. If I had been more
aware of your own situation, then maybe I could have
express myself better.
Philippe
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Seriously, I agree with all you've said, but I think it helps keeps an
> alliance in better shape if you identify and acknowledge the ways it can
> go bad. Such analysis demonstrates some thought and energy on the part of
> both parties, which is at least a sign that they've got a commitment to
> it.
Absolutely. And a commitment to paying attention to the game, too.
> > All I'm planning on right now is:
> > 1. Belgium
> > 2. the North
> > 3. stab Germany with you when possible
> > Why would I attack you? This plan suits me just fine.
>
> Agreed. I will go for two builds and, in all likelihood, pull back from
> Piedmont to Marseilles. Austria is completely unwilling to attack Italy
> right now, and having an army in Tyrolia just gives Andy an opening to
> attack me without doing much good against Munich. We will have a more
> difficult time getting into Germany now, to be sure, but it pays to be a
> little conservative right now. We should start figuring out a plan of
> attack, though.
About the army in PIE. Here's my thinking. If you go back to MAR then Erik will see that as an abandonment of your attack against Italy and thus an attack against him (or me). If you go to TUS Andy will consider it an attack against him and if you go to TYR Erik will see it as an attack against him. Which it would be. *But* if we wanted we could play that card in the spring, and develop a plan in the fall that will keep PIE in place. The answer to that question is I think VEN. Either PIE - VEN or PIE s TRI - VEN. If you like, you can do it seriously, but the other option is try to set it up so it will *not* succeed, it just leaves PIE where it is, while giving the illusion of action. What do you think of that?
> If we're lucky, Germany will end up with A Ruhr, A Hol and F Den, building
> A Mun and (probably) fleet Berlin, though perhaps we can convince him to
> put an army there, too. I can build A Par and F/A Bre or A Mar. I would
> prefer to see you build A Lon and F Edi, but that's without knowing what
> you're planning.
I don't see how F BRE fits in with anything we've discussed.
> Hmm. On further consideration, maybe I *should* move to Tyrolia. With a
> build of A Par and A Mar, that gives me a lock on Burgundy in the S02 (A
> Mar - Bur, A Par S A Mar - Bur, A Tyr - Mun breaks support for Mun S Ruhr -
> Bur). Intriguing. Thoughts?
Interesting. I will think about it & you should too. But off the top of my head, it looks very tempting.
> We really need some pressure from Russia when the time comes. Any idea
> what the heck the Turk is up to? That move to Armenia, while a good sign
> that we don't have to worry about a Juggernaut, throws a wrench into
> things.
Well, if we persuade Germany we still want a 3-way, then he will bounce Russia from Sweden, which will give us R/G conflict.
Thoughts?
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> About the army in PIE. Here's my thinking. If you go back
> to MAR then Erik will see
Obviously I meant Tony. But this whole paragraph can be ignored if we want
to go to TYR to set up a springtime seizure of BUR. It would mean we would
end up grinding it out against Tony, but that's ok with me. At least he
wouldn't be sneaking up on us again. . .
Ben
Message from Observer to Observer
EF have identified the potential for stress in their alliance if Tony
moves to Bur - and given the way he manipulated things in the Spring
I would think Ruh-Bur is favourite.
Why haven't EF seriously considered the possibility of a convoy to
Hol? It is just as good in terms of limiting Tony to 2 builds, and
doesn't place stress on the alliance. Note how Tony casually dropped
the mention of convoying to Bel into his discussions with Ben, I
suspect intending to divert attention away from Hol (which EF did in
fact mention early on). And if Tony goes for Bur, then Yor-Hol hits
the jackpot. If Ruh-Bel then A Bel is isolated and can probably be
picked off next year).
In France's shoes, I think I would be pressing strongly for Yor-Hol.
A second build isn't that important for England, especially if there
is no war with Russia, so even if Tony supports Kie-Hol then things
still look pretty good (especially if Andy can be persuaded to allow
Pie-Tyr).
Robin
Message from England to Germany
Tony
I was turning over the position in my mind & I think I found an improvement
if we decide to go with the triple & I will head north. Observe, after the
convoy to BEL, S'02: BEL - NTH - NWY; NWY - STP. In the fall I claim SWE
and you (or France, however we decide) claims BEL. This of course depends
on my ability to sneak into STP in the spring.
Back to waiting. *snore*
Ben
Message from England to England
F 01 Impressions
New thoughts on some of the other players:
Italy: Andy is the dark horse on the map. I have no idea where his fifth
center might be. He can go after Austria but not too quickly if Turkey is
to be believed about the AT v. R, in which case Andy will be crippling his
ally's ally, which I doubt he wants. He can go after France but I'm sure
he'd like to see Tony on the ropes first, which is a long ways away, now.
My guess is, he's playing a waiting game through '01 & he'll see what
happens. He's probably coaxed an AI, and sooner or later he'll choose
between his AI and his TI, I guess.
Germany & France: I am having alot of trouble diploming with Tony. His
broadcasts in the spring were nerve-wracking and I do not want to go
through that again. On the other hand, contrary to what I wrote to Erik, I
actually enjoy receiving his press & am finding it helpful. Still my first
choice is to work with Erik, who I think plays with at least a shred of
sentimental attachment to his allies, whereas I do not get that feeling at
all from Tony. Though I will add - Erik & I do not put on much of a
tactical display, that's for sure.
I think Erik wants to work with me more than he wants to work with Tony.
So that should get me going pretty well in an EF v. G. *If* that works my
next *big* worry is about an RF, as I do not think Eric G. is likely
alienating Erik the way Tony probably is. So when I move against Russia it
will have to be without warning to Erik, unless it's part of the triple, in
which case I have no choice.
Austria: I am pleased at our correspondence to this point. I will try to
keep it up.
Turkey: What a blessing to have such a compatible correspondent so far
away. I do not want to press him too much but I ought to write him soon.
Ben
Message from Turkey to Austria
I can confirm all those moves (Sev, Bla and support). As long as France
is kept in check, this should go well.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Sounds good. I've got a message in to Germany as well. Hopefully the two
of us can establish footholds in the corners to expand from.
jason
Message from Turkey to France
You know those voices, never can tell what they'll say next. :-)
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
In the end, I decided that for the moment working with Austria would be
a better move for me. That doens't rule out ever working with you, and
in fact I have a good idea of when I'd like to work with you again. With
England heading for a northern attack, I suspect you'll need friends in
the future.
As to my circular reasoning, I was merely pointing out that not moving
to Gal (and forcing a bounce) allows Austria more leverage against RT.
jason
Message from Observer to Observer
At the start gets 2 short messages from IE before he starts
sending press.
Sends note to himself that he wil ask for Anschluss, which I now
know is where he gets an understanding between AGR such
that Germany agrees to not contest Sweden if Russia doesn't
attack Austria.
Then sends well-crafted note to Germany (before talking to Italy
and Russia). I think that the idea here seems to be to get
Germany on board first and then hopefully with strength
approach Italy and Russia.
Doesn't light up the early diplomatic channels, which I would
have thought would be deadly. My approach has been that it is
necessary to talk early and often to other powers, and that if I
don't do that first, I will be starting out behind.
In early exchanges with Turkey, Austria wisely paints a situation
where Turkey is going to attack someone and Austria may or
may not help out.
Austria plays hardball with Germany on forcing Germany to help
him out WRT to IR. I would think that this is a little dangerous
and Germany isn't into anything with Austria yet.
Austria then late approaches Italy and basically says, 'I don't trust
you...shall we dance in Venice?' This almost guarantees that
both countries will waste valuable resources early. I don't like
this although it is safe and conservative.
With Russia and the Gal DMZ, I really like this text: "Personaly, I
would prefer to declare it a DMZ and learn as soon as possible
whether you can be trusted or not, which is usefull to know if we
are to be working together; but I did take the precaution of asking
Tony about bouncing you in Sweden if things turn sour." This
works and Austria and Russia agree on DMZ.
Italy and Austria already have problems over the bounce in Ven,
which Austria is demanding. Germany does step in an try to
mediate. There is a lot of back and forth hardcore negotiating,
nothing that unusual or unexpected. However, if I were Austria or
Italy, I wouldn't want Germany to know exactly what to expect out
of my moves, that just seems like it gives Germany too much
power and op to use it. I don't think Austria is playing Italy (Andy)
right. Andy is at least 80% vain bluster. You can't tell him what to
do, which is the way I am reading Austria's play at this point.
Austria has the upperhand here and Italy doesn't like it but will
play along.
In press to himself, Austria starts publicly plotting to try and get
Turkey to attack Russia but is contemplating how to get Turkey to
think this is his (Turkey's) own idea. Austria then promptly starts
in negotiating with Turkey, the obvious first issue is who will get
2 builds and how that will happen. Austria plants the seed that
maybe Turkey can attack Russia (why doesn't Austria do it
himself I would wonder if I were Turkey). Turkey does agree to
the Arm attack and carries through with it, although Turkey has
no illusions.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
I hope I am successfully negotiating with Erik but any words of
encouragement you throw his way will be appreciated.
I hope the tournament treated you well.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
I see you have still not sent out a group press to eg. Is there something
you're waiting for from me?
No rush, I just wanted to make sure I didn't overlook something.
I want to be clear with you that the convoy to BEL is strictly optional.
Say the word & I will capture with a fleet. . . Just keep in mind how you
would envision it fitting in with our larger plan.
Anyway I hope you had a nice weekend.
Ben
Message from Italy to all
Good Morning...
I owe almost all of you press. Sorry about that, i was without access all
weekend.
It will be coming out shortly.
Andy
Message from Italy to Austria
>
> Don't forget that I'm stuck between you and Russia.
> The plan for the elimination of Turkey was for you
> and I to end up with the biggest shares of the spoils
> so we could pursue an AI alliance. If France has a
> grudge against you and allow Germany to influence
> him, we risk seeing him distract you from the turkish
> invasion and have Russia take the bulk of Turkey's
> homeland since there's no way for me to easily get
> there in your place.
I dont think Erik has a grudge, but he is very very leary of me.
> At the moment, my relation with Turkey is ok, as you
> can imagined, and this could be use to involved Turkey
> in a war with Russia that would allow us to setup the
> fall of Turkey that would really favor us, not Russia.
Sounds like a plan..
Andy
Message from Italy to Austria
>
> > This is Tony's game, always remove the attention from himself to someone
> > else.
>
> OK. The reason I asked anyway, it's because you didn't get back
> to me about Turkey. I don't need you to let me in on how you
> wish to handle France; but I need to know how soon you planned
> on being available to go after Turkey.
I think I will be avalable next year.
> As for our loyalty to AI, we will know for sure by the end of the
> year, so I'm not worried.
I guess we will.
Message from Italy to France
> Thanks for at least understanding my mistake. I can assure you that I will
> not be seeking further gains in the Italian peninsula (right now ;) ).
> England and I are both very concerned about Tony, and Tony and I are
> concerned about England, and I'm sure Tony and England are concerned about
> me. Not the best time for a Franco-Italian war.
The english are very concerned about Tony, and he really wants to work
with on it. But I get the impression that he isnt sure of you wanting to
work with him.
I recommend it, work with him.
> I have not set any plans in motion yet, but I am considering an intriguing
> option in which A Pie moves to Tyrolia. Would you be willing to consider
> or even support such a move?
No. I know it doesnt leave me alot of options, but NO...that would get
both Germany and Austria to attack me.
> And do you have any idea what the story with the Turk's move to Armenia
> was?
Tony convinced him to attack Russia, the way he convinced you to attack
me.
Message from Italy to England
>
> Andy -
> I hope I am successfully negotiating with Erik but any words of
> encouragement you throw his way will be appreciated.
I just did, and I hope he works with you
> I hope the tournament treated you well.
Mostly
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> Well, that sucked!
>
That is a word for it.
> Anything I can do to help right now? I don't know of any plan by Austria
> to help France, but I can try and talk him out of it if need be.
I think the Austrian wants to work with me, but any words of encouragement
would be appreciated.
thanks
Andy
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> After comments 1, I keep thinking I should be sending press for you
> to Austria. I really hope I don't end up screwing that up!
That would be bad.
> Well, that was not a pleasant opening. I would guess that Philippe is
> more freaked out than either of us guessed, and moved to Pie in order
> to support Tri in for Fall. But he could be doing a French version of
> the Alpine Chicken as well (or you could try to convince him to do
> so) to get position on Germany in Tyl.
Philippe is in Austria, Erik is in France.
And he is blaming it all on Tony....and I am inclined to believe him.
> Perhaps creating EF cooperation in the north was too successful.
> Hopefully I'll have a choice of E and G. Germany's move to Ruh makes
> me doubt there's an immediate western triple, but I'm not sure there.
Exactly....I am betting that the Turks moves are Tony's doing as well.
> I guess DMZing Gal was also not the best choice. It looks a lot like
> AT cooperation in the south, though Austria is not as committed as
> Turkey. If we assume Austria attacks Tri and is happy with Ser,
> Turkey's probably going get supported to Rum, while cutting Sev. That
> makes for an interesting decision on my part. I'm not quite sure yet
> how to proceed, but clearly I've got to figure a way to break AT
> apart.
What can I do to help
> If all the above is true, then Ion-Gre might be an interesting
> gamble. F Gre does very little good in the short term, but it forces
> AT to use two units to press it. It also would help me break into Rum
> if AT cooperation continues. If you can want to be really risky, you
> could try to negotiate the safety of Ven and then order Apu-Ion-Gre.
> Fantastic if successful, horrid otherwise!
Im not attacking GRE this fall, I want my build
> If Germany allows me Sweden, I've got some maneuvering room.
I doubt it.
If he
> doesn't I'm not sure what I'll do. I've got some initial thoughts,
> but would like to hear your input before sharing my thinking on how I
> should respond.
Well....I dont know. YOu are in a serious spot.
> The AFT moves are definitely going to make RI coordination difficult
> for a while. The first questions are how confident do we feel that
> it's serious and something we need to negotiate our way through, and
> the second is how risky a response do we want to make. (See above for
> my example of the kind of thing that constitutes a risky response).
Well....the French claim they are going to back out. But I wont know til
Fall.
The Austrian claims he doesnt know what to make of the move to Piedmont,
and was unaware of it.
> We need to talk a lot. I'm the one that's away next week, so we may
> have to wait until late in the week to coordinate.
That we can do....
Take care and travel safe
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
>> I hope I am successfully negotiating with Erik but any words of
>> encouragement you throw his way will be appreciated.
>
> I just did, and I hope he works with you
Thank you.
>> I hope the tournament treated you well.
>
>Mostly
Strange, I didn't see anything about it in the Baltimore Sun.
:)
I will try to make a plan this time that works. Suggestions are always welcome.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
>
> >> I hope the tournament treated you well.
> >
> >Mostly
> Strange, I didn't see anything about it in the Baltimore Sun.
It wont get any press....not even in DC.
> I will try to make a plan this time that works. Suggestions are always
welcome.
>
NWG - NWY
NTH - BEL
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> NWG - NWY
> NTH - BEL
Thanks. Getting into BEL will be the hard part - I am getting zero read on Tony.
Ben
Message from Italy to England and France
> Andy -
> > NWG - NWY
> > NTH - BEL
> Thanks. Getting into BEL will be the hard part - I am getting zero
read on Tony.
Tell Tony that it is a condition of continuing to work with him and move
north.
And if he gives it to you, you attack him, and if he doesnt, you attack
him.
Getting it is just a bonus. I dont expect him to give it to you
Andy
Message from Austria to Italy
> I think I will be avalable next year.
Thanks for letting me know.
Philippe.
P.-S. However you decide to proceed, please remember not
to go for Greece as I don't want to risk bouncing with you.
Message from Italy to Austria
>
> > I think I will be avalable next year.
>
> Thanks for letting me know.
>
> Philippe.
>
> P.-S. However you decide to proceed, please remember not
> to go for Greece as I don't want to risk bouncing with you.
>
That is what the Russian is suggesting, but I wont be doing it.
Message from England to France
Erik -
Well, now that we have Andy's input, I wonder what you're hearing from Tony.
Ben
Message from France to Italy
>
> > I have not set any plans in motion yet, but I am considering an
> intriguing
> > option in which A Pie moves to Tyrolia. Would you be willing to
> consider
> > or even support such a move?
>
> No. I know it doesnt leave me alot of options, but NO...that would get
> both Germany and Austria to attack me.
What if you didn't support it, but simply didn't do anything to block it?
Would you be willing to consider that? It would help Ben and I against
Tony significantly, and your involvement would have plausible deniability.
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
I think my e-mail was a little messed up on Sunday. I sent a response but
don't see judge confirmation or anything in my sent mail. Weird.
I said we should continue the triple attempt, with you going for Belgium
and Germany going for Holland. You'll see, I'll re-send it from what I
remember writing.
Italy is not willing to support me into Tyrolia, but I don't know if that
means he'd oppose a move there. I was having identical thoughts to yours
regarding a fake support of Austria to maintain the FI hostility ruse; if
Italy cooperates, I think it's not a bad plan. A Tyr, A Par, A Mar and A
Bel gives us a formidable force to work with. If we can get the Russian to
apply some heat to the other front, I think we can begin to crack Germany
within a couple of turns.
Can you suggest the same Tyrolia plan to Italy? Perhaps it will seem less
like a ruse if it comes from both of us.
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I think my e-mail was a little messed up on Sunday. I sent a response but
> don't see judge confirmation or anything in my sent mail. Weird.
I never got anything. Curious.
> I said we should continue the triple attempt, with you going for Belgium
> and Germany going for Holland. You'll see, I'll re-send it from what I
> remember writing.
Ok. In the end I think I may get bounced from BEL but that will be ok. As long as you get your 2 builds. And who knows, he may actually *do it* after we followed through in the spring.
> Italy is not willing to support me into Tyrolia, but I don't know if that
> means he'd oppose a move there. I was having identical thoughts to yours
> regarding a fake support of Austria to maintain the FI hostility ruse; if
> Italy cooperates, I think it's not a bad plan. A Tyr, A Par, A Mar and A
> Bel gives us a formidable force to work with. If we can get the Russian to
> apply some heat to the other front, I think we can begin to crack Germany
> within a couple of turns.
I agree with your analysis 100%. The problem with my suggestion for PIE s TRI - VEN is it puts Andy in a tough spot if he knows about it. He might respond by freaking out. Because if he knows you will be ordering it, the only thing he has left to decide is wheter (a) Austria knows & (b) Austria will take advantage. Tough call, for him, though of course he can support from APU if he was not intending to convoy to TUN. Anyway I like the move to TYR if we can pull it off. If it fails & I do not get into BEL then that will be rough. But there are always risks. . .
> Can you suggest the same Tyrolia plan to Italy? Perhaps it will seem less
> like a ruse if it comes from both of us.
Yeah, I'll bounce it off him. I'll let you know what he says.
How did you explain the move to PIE? Did you tell him that it was part of an "Triple" stab of Germany? I'd like to know before I write him. . .
Hope you had a nice weekend.
Ben
Message from Italy to France
> >
> > > I have not set any plans in motion yet, but I am considering an
> > intriguing
> > > option in which A Pie moves to Tyrolia. Would you be willing to
> > consider
> > > or even support such a move?
> >
> > No. I know it doesnt leave me alot of options, but NO...that would get
> > both Germany and Austria to attack me.
>
> What if you didn't support it, but simply didn't do anything to block it?
> Would you be willing to consider that? It would help Ben and I against
> Tony significantly, and your involvement would have plausible deniability.
>
Do it.
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason....
I have an idea....dont know how keen on it you will be, but I thought I
would ask....
I think I have the french off my back, and I want to position for whatever
comes next....
Would you consider supporting APU - GRE
Thanks
Andy
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
My apologies for being so quiet over the weekend, but I appear to have had
some issues with my outgoing e-mail. I am resending everything today.
To be frank, I don't think it's a good idea for me to head after England
and Italy at the same time. As much as I appreciate the aggressive
approach you're suggesting, it's one that's just going to get me in
trouble, especially given how wishy-washy Austria is being. I don't think
I can fight a war on two fronts and reap benefits from both.
Mao - Eng has some obvious tactical advantages, but it still puts me at a
small loss due to England's guaranteed build in Lon and a potential second
build elsewhere. He's already got F Nth, so if get a build in Bre, my
fleet in Eng still won't have much backup, especially if he's got an
additional fleet in Edinburgh to bring down.
Now, if you were able to bounce him out of Belgium, my chances might
improve significantly. He'd still build a fleet in London, but that gives
him F Nth, F Lon and F Nrg versus our F Bre, F Eng and F Kiel. Nrg is too
far to make a difference, so we're looking at potentially taking the North
Sea within a year, three seasons tops. If we can bring Russia into Norway,
that further ups our chances.
So I think it's either-or: if Austria relents and decides that he wants to
go after Italy, I can attack there and let England stretch himself thin up
in Scandanavia. If Austria's too stubborn, I think Mao - Eng and a bounce
in Bel might be our best bet. Thoughts?
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
Gentlemen:
Apologies for the delay in responding -- I had some outgoing e-mail
issues. I sent an e-mail similar to this one on Saturday, but it appears
not to have gone out. So, from memory, I'll try to reproduce what I said.
I'm in Piedmont, so I might as well press forward, right? Austria is being
fickle about moving on Italy, but I may be able to swing him around in the
next five days. Meanwhile, I can grab two builds or swing down to Wes; I'm
leaning toward the more conservative approach, simply due to the
uncertainty of all this, but F Wes certainly has its advantages.
I would suggest you two decide on an amicable Bel / Hol division.
Obviously, I'd also like to see an English fleet in Belgium, but I'm
willing to listen to arguments for an army.
Where do you two proceed next turn? Germany, will you bounce Russia from
Sweden? What kind of builds can we expect?
Erik
Message from Germany to France
Hi Erik, good to hear from you again. Well if you will go after England then
I will surely bounce him in BEL. I either then pick up BEL or HOL. I would
then also build a fleet in KIE.
Russia is willing to help out against Englad and he is willing to move on
NWY fi I dont bounce him. He has his hands full down south.
You can pick up BEL next spring. Build and army and a fleet and I will
support you in. I dont fancy england in Belgium either. If its you at least
we have an alliance. Let me know how you get on with Austria.
Italy is weakened so he may as well join in with you to attack italy. I dont
see his problem, either he is with Turkey or not. I am guessing Turkey didnt
go it alone.
If you stay in PIE then I will also build in MUN and move on TYR if you
wish. England only gets one build, we will directly have two units on NTH
and KIE will be in SKA. He cant do both. So by fall we should be in ENG. You
may even be able to convoy to Wales. But if we go for him then I will
invlove russia (at least for norway). England cant fight all three of us.
I will prees EF as in EFG and play along until you make a definite decision.
Message from Germany to England and France
Well we are all back at our keyboards. I will support myself to HOL. I know
England wishes to get an army in BEL to convoy north next spring. Its a
matter of trust. But BEL will be a little isolated as I can dislodge it in
the spring if need be so it is worth the gamble.
I will build armies as mentioned before and push these east or maybe push
one to MUN if need be.
Message from Observer to Observer
Belgium
It's truly wonderful how game after game, Belgium has EFG in knots. I would
give it away every time to someone I think I trust get his allegiance. And try
to get other concessions instead. Let that person use the resources to defend
it in the alliance.
Lies
After Germany's actions in spring, how can either E or F take what he is
saying seriously? In 1901 G lies to both of them. Each of them know that his
messages to EF are at variance with the private press, and he is lying to at least
one of them. I'm surprised that E/F relations aren't even more solid right now.
Anyway, in this situation, I think Italy's advise to England is good - insist
on Bel (with a fleet) as a precondition for further cooperation. If France is
"luke-warm" to Germany at the same time, then the choice to G may appear to
be to have E as an ally (by giving him bel), or maybe have no allies at all if
he bounces E.
Instead, E/F are negotiating their own private deals with G, and giving him a
stronger ability to deny Bel to E.
Message from Austria to Italy
> > P.-S. However you decide to proceed, please remember not
> > to go for Greece as I don't want to risk bouncing with you.
> >
>
> That is what the Russian is suggesting, but I wont be doing it.
Thanks.
Message from Austria to Turkey
OK. I'm not sure what France will do exactly,
but I would be surprise to see him expand
quickly, so it shouldn't pose a problem for us.
Philippe
Message from England to France and Germany
Gentlemen -
> Well we are all back at our keyboards. I will support myself to HOL. I
know
> England wishes to get an army in BEL to convoy north next spring. Its a
> matter of trust. But BEL will be a little isolated as I can dislodge it in
> the spring if need be so it is worth the gamble.
If everyone is agreed then I will do it. I think it is more elegant,
tactically, but I would not do it if I thought I would be alienating one or
the other of you, so just let me know if either of you gets cold feet & I
will use the fleet instead.
> I will build armies as mentioned before and push these east or maybe push
> one to MUN if need be.
I imagine I will build a F EDI and an A LVP/LON, though frankly I haven't
begun to think about it yet.
Ok, orders are going in.
Ben
Message from England to France and Germany
One other thing - does this mean Tony that you are going to bounce Russia
from Sweden? It would make S'02 go more smoothly if the Russian fleet were
in BOT, that's for sure.
Ben
Message from Germany to France
If you want anti english moves agree to his press and mail me seperately.
If you want a fleet there (i do) then best you tell him it will look more
natural ;-)
Message from Germany to England and France
Yes it would mean me bouncing Sweden. I will wait to hear from France.
Message from Observer to Observer
--- In c2b@yahoogroups.com, aasdip@a... wrote:
> Instead, E/F are negotiating their own private deals with G, and
giving him a
> stronger ability to deny Bel to E.
What then should France do? If F-G relations aren't good, then
France will want to see that England (ally?) gets it, but this is
difficult with France's current position.
So really France can't do anything? Or at least nothing I can see.
It is a English-German decision at this point, no?
Message from Turkey to Italy
Good to hear from you. From all I'm getting, France isn't too keen to
press the attack. This comes from both him and Austria.
As for Apu - Gre, I have to support Austria for now. I'd prefer you go
for Tun, and leave Gre to me, as otherwise I'll be fairly bottled up for
now.
jason
Message from Turkey to Austria
Glad to hear about France. He said something similar to me, so we seem
to be on track.
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
> As for Apu - Gre, I have to support Austria for now. I'd prefer you go
> for Tun, and leave Gre to me, as otherwise I'll be fairly bottled up for
> now.
>
Ok.
Let me ask you a question.
If I am not fighting you. And you are supporting the Austrian. And the
Austrian insists on continuing to hedgehog.....
Where exactly am I supposed to go.
Message from Observer to Observer
In a message dated 14/10/03 03:57:13 GMT Daylight Time,
albrigh@mail.med.upenn.edu writes:
> > Instead, E/F are negotiating their own private deals with G, and
> giving him a
> > stronger ability to deny Bel to E.
>
> What then should France do? If F-G relations aren't good, then
> France will want to see that England (ally?) gets it, but this is
> difficult with France's current position.
>
> So really France can't do anything? Or at least nothing I can see.
>
> It is a English-German decision at this point, no?
>
Fair point. France needs to keep talking to Germany. But in either France or
England's place, I would be expending far more energy in promoting the E/F
relationship, to the extent of sharing the contents of the private discussions I
was having with Germany. By now I (think) I would have seen enough to decide
that EG was the only way I could be part of a vaguely trusting alliance. This
would allow better coordination, and a better chance that Germany could be
persuaded not to bounce the E/F alliance out of Bel.
Of course, Tony is very able, and realises that many people put getting
centres in the short term as a priority above getting centres more slowly - but
keeping them! And he is trying manfully to persuade E & F individually to take
what he offers in the short term. It will be interesting to see if he will
succeed. Since E/F are NOT sharing the details of their private conversations with
Germany, he has already succeeded to some extent.
Ash
Message from Turkey to Italy
Sorry, I wasn't clear about that.
I'm supporting the Austrian into Rum against Russia. I felt that it was
most important to contain Russia this turn, so I could get Sev before
turning west.
If you think that strategy is a non-starter., I'm always open to suggestion.
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> I'm supporting the Austrian into Rum against Russia. I felt that it was
> most important to contain Russia this turn, so I could get Sev before
> turning west.
Which unit are you supporting into Rum??
Message from Turkey to Italy
I'm supporting Bud into Rum, so there's a change Ser will try for Gre.
That's unlikely, though, as he'll likely just bounce Rum then.
jason
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> According to Buz Eddy:
>
> 1. Edward Hawthorne
> 2. Lisa Foster
> 3. David Hood
> 4. Andy Bartalone
> the rest has been subject to conflicting reports.
Congratulations. Outstanding!
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> Andy -
> > According to Buz Eddy:
> >
> > 1. Edward Hawthorne
> > 2. Lisa Foster
> > 3. David Hood
> > 4. Andy Bartalone
> > the rest has been subject to conflicting reports.
>
> Congratulations. Outstanding!
>
thank you....
If you only knew how close I was to winning....
I had to sit out a round due to having an odd # of people and bieng a PTKS
boardmember.
If the sunday round was unlimited, rather than timed......I would have
solo'd and won the tourney.
Message from Italy to Italy
I am taking an enormous chance right now. It literally could mean worlds
about the game and what the outcome could be.
I would prefer to die fast than wander around at 4 throughout the
midgame...
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> If you only knew how close I was to winning....
>
> I had to sit out a round due to having an odd # of people and
> bieng a PTKS
> boardmember.
>
> If the sunday round was unlimited, rather than timed......I would have
> solo'd and won the tourney.
Good lord you are the Cubs. Congratulations & that's too bad about sitting
out a round. If you place 4th, do you get a plaque? Trophy? How many were
competing?
In c2 - Erik tells me you will not support PIE - TYR. I must confess I am
stunned - stunned I tell you! - by this announcement. ;-)
But I think it is in your best interest for his army to get to TYR to work
against Germany, & I think you will be happy to see PIE - TYR succeed. So
will you use your influence/units to help out that cause? Of course you
will not support him. But this is a different question. . .
Congrats again on the tourney. I feel some pain for you not winning - but
mostly just congratulations.
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> Andy -
> > If you only knew how close I was to winning....
> >
> > I had to sit out a round due to having an odd # of people and
> > bieng a PTKS
> > boardmember.
> >
> > If the sunday round was unlimited, rather than timed......I would have
> > solo'd and won the tourney.
> Good lord you are the Cubs. Congratulations & that's too bad about sitting
> out a round. If you place 4th, do you get a plaque? Trophy? How many were
> competing?
Yeah....plaque, won the team round, got best Austria, won the Eastern
Swing. I carried home alot of lumber.
> In c2 - Erik tells me you will not support PIE - TYR. I must confess I am
> stunned - stunned I tell you! - by this announcement. ;-)
>
ROFL.
> But I think it is in your best interest for his army to get to TYR to work
> against Germany, & I think you will be happy to see PIE - TYR succeed. So
> will you use your influence/units to help out that cause? Of course you
> will not support him. But this is a different question. . .
So do I.....this should be a very intresting round.
> Congrats again on the tourney. I feel some pain for you not winning - but
> mostly just congratulations.
Thank you
take care
Andy
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> Yeah....plaque, won the team round, got best Austria, won the Eastern
> Swing. I carried home alot of lumber.
This sounds great! You must be some world class sneak to be so successful
at Diplomacy! :o)
> > In c2 - Erik tells me you will not support PIE - TYR. I must confess I
am
> > stunned - stunned I tell you! - by this announcement. ;-)
> >
> ROFL.
>
> > But I think it is in your best interest for his army to get to TYR to
work
> > against Germany, & I think you will be happy to see PIE - TYR succeed.
So
> > will you use your influence/units to help out that cause? Of course you
> > will not support him. But this is a different question. . .
>
> So do I.....this should be a very intresting round.
I'm not trying to be thickheaded, I'm just trying to get a sense of the
board, so forgive me for asking, does this mean you won't interfere with
PIE - TYR?
Not wanting to be a bother. . .
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> I'm not trying to be thickheaded, I'm just trying to get a sense of the
> board, so forgive me for asking, does this mean you won't interfere with
> PIE - TYR?
>
Yes.
Message from Observer to Observer
I am admittedly behind on my e-mail which is probably a no-no for a serious commentator, but I must say that I am
finding this compelling reading.
Will Tony get away with his ducking and weaving.
I notice the message below was sent "from E to E" though I am guessing it was meant to be "from E to F", and if so
England does not seem to have picked up his error so far (I am up to Friday 10th so far in my reading of this
group). Perhaps it is the key piece of luck Tony needs to split up EF, since the EF bitch-fest against G's
double-cross seems to grind to a halt (temporarily or otherwise) at this point.
Regards
Peter (reading on with baited breath)
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:04:37 -0500 (CDT)
> From: USTX Diplomacy Judge <ustx@spencersoft.com>
> Subject: USTX:c2 - F1901M Press from E to E
>
> USTX Diplomacy Judge
>
> now running njudge 1.4.0
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Please report judge problems to judgekeeper@spencersoft.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Message from BHarris@StAttorney.org as England to England in 'c2':
>
> Erik -
> > Should have listened to my gut.
> Both of us should have listened to your gut. He made us monkeys, for sure.
>
> > Bastard just hung us out to dry -- he
> > gets two builds, can let Russia into
> > Sweden and play it off like he had
> > no idea what was going on. Meanwhile,
> > we've got to deal with an angry
> > Russia and Italy.
> Not so much an angry Russia. But an angry Italy, absolutely.
>
> > Even if I surround Mujnich, he can build A Mun and A
> > Ber, and I've got no hope of taking it. Jesus. Maybe you can at least
> > outguess him and bounch him in Holland or Bel. Ugh.
> There won't be any guessing involve - he'll be trying for both.
>
> > Interesting moves on the Turk's part, though. Did you have
> > anything to do with that?
> Well I thought it was coming, but I didn't cause it. Good news.
>
> We have to decide how stupid we should pretend to be (after the spring are
> we pretending?) when we deal with Tony. Let me know if you've written him
> already.
>
> Ben
Message from Observer to Observer
Talk about laying it on with a trowel. I almost laughed out loud when I read this one. :-)
Regards
Peter
Message: 23
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:25:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: USTX Diplomacy Judge <ustx@spencersoft.com>
Subject: USTX:c2 - F1901M Press from G to FA
> Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Germany to France and Austria in 'c2':
>
> >>What's going on with you two? Are you just trying
> to make things interesting for the observer or is
> there a point behind this ;-)>>
>
> Hahahaha so the pair of you still deny planning this all along. OK, i can
> await the fall outcome.
> If you two do decide to "let me in" then "let me know".
Message from Austria to England
Hi Ben,
It's been a while since we last talked and I was
wondering how you were doing on your side?
Philippe
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
The Judge is acting oddly so I'm sending this off-Judge & on the Judge as
well.
I want to make sure we are all on board. Did you still want to hear
something from France? I didn't want to ask him again if you don't need
it. . .
Ben
Message from Observer to Observer
I'm sending this early, but I see A moves are in and I don't think
much will change before the deadline.
First, my guess for Austrian moves:
bud-rum
tri h (or support if Italy wants)
ser-gre
I think that ser s bud-rum is a better move because I think there
is a greater liklihood of getting 2 builds this way (not 100% but
close). The tradeoff is 2 builds for sure vs lying to Italy about
(Greece) and worrying that Russia orders Sev-Rumania and
Rum stays open.
If Greece stays open then Italy will rightfully see this as Austria
trying to keep it open for AT.
anyway here is my log/analysis of Austrian press 1901
***************************
After the S1901 moves process,
Austria sends notes
1. to France asking why France attacked Italy, when Austria
wasn't ready yet.
2. To Andy (Italy) restating that he doesn't trust ITaly in 1901 but
still would like to work with Andy (as if Italy and Andy are different
entities). I am going to be interested to see if Andy goes for this,
my guess is no, that he will view it as bs (indeed this is the case:
I to I press "It could be Philippe especially with that weak ass
press he sent me right after it.) Italy responds trying to figure out
if Germany is behind France's attack on him.
3. To England, saying that it is good no RT, don't let Germany
take Belgium.
4. to Turkey, just rah rah, no substance.
This seems to be good ploys, trying to play one country against
the other. Not making up lies or trying to be too sneaky, just
pointing out little factoids.
Once the press starts rolling, he asks Tony (and Andy) about
what is going on wth the western triple?
Austria decides to talk straight with ITaly. Italy responds with
straight talk to, laying out Italian problems. I think that this is a
mistake, because Austria could use this the advantage of
weakening Italy even more. Italy will have to convince Austria that
it is in the best interest (At least short term) for A to help I. I don't
see this yet either in public or private press from I.
A responds to an offer from F to attack I in Venice by being
non-commital. Basically, 'let's see what your plan is'. Also, A is
pressing F for more info on the Western Triple that looks like it
isn't going to happen. I'm sure that A wants to get as much
information as possible to decide for 100% certain that there
really is no WEstern Triple. If I were playing Austria, I would
almost consider leading France to believe he should attack
Venice. This will tie up Italy even more and it is unlikely that this
could come back to Haunt Austria, as it slows Italy and since
France is probably not going to be around for the long run.
Although I suppose that if A can convince France to order
Pie-Tus, that could be better for Austria.
There is a flurry of messages between E and A. Austria is trying
to cross board control England mostly with the appearance of
wanting to make sure that Germany doesn't get to 10 dots in just
a couple of years...even so much that A offers specific move
advice to E. And the idea that E can approach G stating an E-G
alliance should be dependent on Germany bouncing Russia in
Sweden. It will be interesting to see if Austria can pull this one
off.
Then there is AIG discussion, where both A and I are , in their
own way, putting the screws to Germany. Germany responds
with Confusion and re-directs towards Austria's situation. I would
think that since Austria hasn't made as many waves on the
board with his moves, that he should simply ignore the German
Craziness. (Which A does in press to FG). And then to mess
with G, Austria alerts Italy (in AIG press) that Germany is sending
press to both F and A at the same time. This should enrage Italy
to no end, I can see the veins popping out of Andy's head.
A then continues on to get France to tell him the whole story of
what France did. No new information and since I'm not reading
all the press, I don't know for certain if the story is all true
(although it seems like it is).
[at this point, you will note there is no contact with Russia and
Turkey, Russia is going to be away it seems..it will be interesting
to see how this plays out. I would guess that it means that there
is less liklihood for meaningful full partnership between A and
either R or T...at least until the press situation changes. A
doesn't know what they want, are going to do, are thinking, etc.)
But it is interesting that Austria hasn't even bothered to send
Turkey press at this point. Why bother sending cursory press to
England, but not to Turkey?
Russia then offers Austria the possibility to work together while
at the same time clearly stating the reality of his situation of
facing AT. But, just like the offer from France, Austria stays
non-commital, doesn't offer any ideas or moves to Russia. I
would take this to mean that Austria is unlikjely to do anything but
attack Russia.
At this point, I can almost imagine Austria now is thinking what
exactly is he going to choose out of his move options. He asks
ITaly directly if ITaly believes there is a FA.
There is other press, but the only thing I see of interest is that
Austria offers help to Italy.
Message from Austria to England
(second copy, sorry if first one was received)
Hi Ben,
It's been a while since we last talked and I was
wondering how you were doing on your side?
Philippe
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Sorry I didn't respond before I left on my break. Oddly, my pacbell mail
account classified your message as spam, so I didn't see it until I looked
more closely, even though it arrived before I left for my break.
>Just to make sure, you don't actually expect me to support
>you in Rum now? In an AR alliance, you need a fleet in Rum,
>not an army, and Ukr can easily support Sev-Rum while Mos
>cover Sev.
No, I don't truly expect you to support me in Rum at the moment. Though it
would be helpful (it would allow me to self bounce in Sev, which makes
guessing about what Arm is going to do less complicated) I can see that
it's not in your best interest. At the same time, I would like to know that
you are not going to contest me taking Rum, either by supporting Bul-Rum or
by accepting Turkey's support there yourself. Obviously building F Sev and
cementing an RA is now my primary focus; but I'd like to know that I'm
getting the build that will let me commit to it.
> > [...]And your
> > protestations aside, most of the board is convinced there's an AF as
> > well.
>
>I didn't see Tri-Ven as a call for Mar-Pie, but if most of the
>board thing so, there's not much I can do about it. I suppose
>we will have to wait for the fall's moves for people to get this
>out of their head.
I wasn't trying to accuse you, just letting you know that I was getting
comments about this from others.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Russia
>I hope this is just a bunch of bullsh*t meant to confuse me. What a
>crappy player to land next to....
The funny thing is that most of the time I spent thinking about Dip on my
time off was thinking "that was an unnecessarily harsh message" (even
though I didn't send it to Jason directly) rather than figuring out how I
wanted to respond to the very potential AT. Gotta work on my priorities!
If the commentators haven't already discussed it to death, I'd like to hear
people's thoughts about whether an AR DMZ in Gal is inherently a bad thing
for an RT.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
> > Well, that was not a pleasant opening. I would guess that Philippe is
> > more freaked out than either of us guessed, and moved to Pie in order
> > to support Tri in for Fall. But he could be doing a French version of
> > the Alpine Chicken as well (or you could try to convince him to do
> > so) to get position on Germany in Tyl.
>
>Philippe is in Austria, Erik is in France.
Doh! I meant Erik, not Philippe.
>What can I do to help [with AT]
Well, that's a damned good question. Turkey seems intent on attacking me
for now, so anything you can do to make that seem like a bad idea for him
will be good for both of us. Likewise, anything you can do that will get
Austria to move towards an AR would be good. Don't know how much leverage
you have in either place. What's your sense of Austria's plans at this point?
>Well....I dont know [in terms of move advice]. You are in a serious spot.
Yup, that's how I see it as well. As I see it, I've got two choices: go
full bore assuming there's an AR and hoping I don't get gutted by Austria,
or get defensive assuming an AT is already fixed, which would give me more
breathing room if I'm correct, but would likely create the AT if it isn't
already in place.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
>In the end, I decided that for the moment working with Austria would be
>a better move for me. That doens't rule out ever working with you, and
>in fact I have a good idea of when I'd like to work with you again. With
>England heading for a northern attack, I suspect you'll need friends in
>the future.
From my point of view I need friends in the present. If you are just
waiting until I get "desperate", you don't have anything to wait for! The
only reason I haven't been negotiating specific moves with you is because I
have read your messages as stating that you are committed to attacking me
for the short term. So I've been focused on getting you to see that there
are options for us to cooperate. If you are worried about my fleet, I can
look to disband it. If you want to see a stronger front against Austria, I
can do that. But not while you are in the middle of attacking me.
Again, I'd rather find friends now than later. At the moment, you are the
only person who is obviously attacking me. Assuming you continue to attack
me for several seasons, it's risky to think I'll be more disposed to work
with you after you've held me still long enough for AEG to pile on, rather
than working to help someone else (presumedly Austria) against you.
>As to my circular reasoning, I was merely pointing out that not moving
>to Gal (and forcing a bounce) allows Austria more leverage against RT.
I told you I was looking at negotiating a DMZ in Gal. If that was an issue
to you against an RT, I'dve appreciated a heads up. It was not obviously a
bad thing for an RT to me, especially given that you wanted to hide any RT
cooperation. The point of telling you I was talking about it was to give
you an opportunity to tell me it could be a problem. It was not meant as a
"there's going to be a DMZ, deal with it" communication.
So again I'm having trouble understanding what you are looking to
accomplish. What is it that you think I'll be willing to do if England is
attacking me that you think I won't be willing to do now?
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to all
Greetings all,
While I'm still technically on vacation, I'm back with net access again. I
have a few minutes to write press before we're out to run errands, so I
might not get to send all the press I'd like, but I'm generally available
again. Sorry for the delay.
--- Tzarface
Message from England to Austria
Phillipe -
> It's been a while since we last talked and I was
> wondering how you were doing on your side?
Well supposedly Tony will let me into Belgium, which is nice.
I imagine you will be taking GRE? An excellent '01 for you, if you do.
Good luck!
Ben
Message from Germany to France
Any news yet? are we going after England? or are we going to try for the
EFG.
Do we really want england getting two builds? He will no doubt build fleets
and eventual;ly you will clash. I strongly suggest mao - eng. I will bounce
him in Holland and Belgium, one of which will bounce.
If you want to play really safe just take the two builds and build a fleet
in BRE, I will build one in KIE. By 1903 we will be in england. Let me know.
Message from Germany to England
Hi there, I am still waiting to hear from France. I am assuming that all
will go well.
Remind me again, yor - bel and in the fall nwg - bar and bel to nwy along
with a fleet build in edi which will move on nwg? What will your second
build be? I am a little worried about two fleets, this would allow NTH to
move on HEL or SKA backed up by a supported move to NTH. With a hostile
Russia this would spell trouble for Germany. I am thinking along the lines
of one build for you. With two army builds I pose no threat. If you stick to
the plan amd convoy yor - nwy next year then I can let you into BEL. Just
thoughts. My main fear is me bouncing Russia and having France/England
picking up two and moving on me. Do you understand the fears?
As you know I prefer to negotiate from a position where I have an upperhand
(even if only slight).
Message from England to France
Erik -
Forgive me writing off-Judge but the Judge is acting weird & I wanted to
get this to you. I will also send a copy via press & we will see if it
gets through.
Anyway Tony is claiming he still wants "confirmation" from you, though I'm
not sure exactly what you are supposed to be confirming that you haven't
confirmed already. Please when you get a chance send him a press, or an eg
group press, confirming your dedication to the efg triple, or something
like that.
Clearly part of his game is to ask for a neverending series of
"confirmations" so it can be your fault when he stabs you.
Looking forward to the Judge working again -
Ben
Message from Turkey to Turkey
Well, it's about time for another turn (finally!), so I better send out
my seasonal self-report.
Russia is really giving me a hard time about this whole RT thing, and I
really have no idea why. Does he think I'm going to support him just
because he badgers me about it? Fat chance!
Looks like Italy will take Gre, which I'd really prefer he not, but I'm
not in a position to stop him right now.
Otherwise, hopefully I'mm get position on Russia this turn so I can move
on Sev next. We'll see.
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
Haven't heard from you in a while, so I wanted to make sure everything's
still on track. Do you need anything from me now?
jason
Message from Turkey to England
It's been a while between turns, so I wanted to check in. Everything
good to go on that half of the board?
jason
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
My apologies for not writing earlier, but I knew you were out of town and
thought I'd just get back to you on your return.
Here's the story: the move to Piedmont was part of a larger plan that,
for a variety of reasons, didn't materialize. Germany was supposed to
open strongly against you, and when it did so, England and I were
prepared to take advantage of his overextension and swoop in for the
kill. I couldn't tell you during the opening negotiations because we
needed Germany to push far enough in your direction to get him
overextended, and defensive moves on your part might have spoiled that.
There was no coordination with Austria; in fact, he was skeptical of
taking any action against Italy. If anything, I had suspected the Italy
would be coming west toward me as part of an AI alliance. As it turns
out, they're not in cahoots, but they also don't trust each other one
lick.
So now England and I are trying to figure out what to do about Germany,
who opened in the least expected (but also most likely, in retrospect)
way. I wouldn't worry too much about England headed north; that opening,
like mine to Italy, was a red herring. He may have already informed you
of this, for all I know. If we're really lucky, England and Germany will
bump heads in Holland or Belgium now and leave you and I in a situation
of advantage.
I have no idea what the move to Armenia was all about. I've asked Turkey,
but he doesn't like to reply with more than a sentence at a time.
Drop me a line when you get this and let me know where you're at. I'd
like to see if we can get on the same page with EG before I make final
plans with them.
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
Gentlemen:
My apologies for being quiet, but the break made me a little lazy.
I am going to go for the two builds and see if I can get something going
with Austria against Italy. He's still reluctant, but perhaps I can force
his hand.
So, to confirm, I'll be going for my two and expect both of you too, as
well.
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
Sorry, I got lax over the break. I will send a confirmation shortly to
you and Germany.
Big question: do I do the Tyrolia move or not? We need to decide soon.
Your move is clear, but I am still not sure if Pie - Tyr or Pie - Mar is
better. Any thoughts now that we've had time for reflection? I need to
study the map. Maybe go for the two builds and support Tri - Pie.
Erik
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
Sorry about the delay, as I said in the message to you and England. I
think Mao - Nth has merit, especially if you're willing to bounce him out
of Belgium and Holland. I think I may need to pull back from Italy,
though.
How does that sound?
Erik
Message from Italy to Turkey
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Message from jasonab@acm.org as Turkey to Italy in 'c2':
>
> Haven't heard from you in a while, so I wanted to make sure everything's
> still on track. Do you need anything from me now?
All good and boring as ever.
Just waiting for the bloody turn to process.
Message from Italy to Russia
> >What can I do to help [with AT]
>
> Well, that's a damned good question. Turkey seems intent on attacking me
> for now, so anything you can do to make that seem like a bad idea for him
> will be good for both of us. Likewise, anything you can do that will get
> Austria to move towards an AR would be good. Don't know how much leverage
> you have in either place. What's your sense of Austria's plans at this point?
I think they are totally in bed with Turkey, all the while asking me when
I am going to attack Turkey.
> >Well....I dont know [in terms of move advice]. You are in a serious spot.
>
> Yup, that's how I see it as well. As I see it, I've got two choices: go
> full bore assuming there's an AR and hoping I don't get gutted by Austria,
> or get defensive assuming an AT is already fixed, which would give me more
> breathing room if I'm correct, but would likely create the AT if it isn't
> already in place.
Take the breathing room, but dont be surprised at all if Galacia is
occupied in the fall.
Andy
Message from Germany to France
No problem, I will bounce him in BEL and Holland. As for pulling back from
PIE that is obviously your choice. As I will be getting two builds (fleet
and an army in MUN) then I could move to TYR next spring (leaving you to
build a fleet in MAR). But the choice is yours. For now I am quite happy
just going after england with you. With your fleet in ENG and an army build
in BRE you can convoy to wales in the spring. So pulling pressure off Italy
is understandable unless ofcourse you can sway Austria.Lets go for it.
Message from Germany to Russia
Good luck down south. I hope from the build in sweden you will consider a
fleet up north. I hope to be supporting you into NWY next year.
Message from Germany to England
Sorry Ben but I will negotiate from a power perspective. I am to paranoid
right now. I will bounce you in holland and belgium. As a consession I am
willing to bounce russia in sweden if you convoy to Norway and push for BAR.
The russian is in trouble down south, denying him a build in sweden will
make him easy pray for us.
I can support you into Sweden in the spring, you build an army in EDI this
year and convoy that to NWY. This will leave you with two units on STP in
the fall. I will build a fleet in BER to push for BAL. This will ensure you
pick up sweden and STP next year whilst I push for WAR with the armies. You
said to let you know if i dont like something rather than lie to you. I hope
this offer is enough. With France picking up two and you I wouldnt feel
safe.
Message from Austria to Russia
> Sorry I didn't respond before I left on my break. Oddly, my pacbell mail
> account classified your message as spam, so I didn't see it until I looked
> more closely, even though it arrived before I left for my break.
Hope it won't happen too often.
> No, I don't truly expect you to support me in Rum at the moment. Though it
> would be helpful (it would allow me to self bounce in Sev, which makes
> guessing about what Arm is going to do less complicated) I can see that
> it's not in your best interest. At the same time, I would like to know that
> you are not going to contest me taking Rum, either by supporting Bul-Rum or
> by accepting Turkey's support there yourself. Obviously building F Sev and
> cementing an RA is now my primary focus; but I'd like to know that I'm
> getting the build that will let me commit to it.
OK. While it could be helpfull to support you, you must know
that Greece & Serbia are too tasty to pass up.
> I wasn't trying to accuse you, just letting you know that I was getting
> comments about this from others.
Yeah, I see that Tony's pretty good at making others believe
what he want.
Philippe
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Big question: do I do the Tyrolia move or not? We need to decide soon.
> Your move is clear, but I am still not sure if Pie - Tyr or Pie - Mar is
> better. Any thoughts now that we've had time for reflection? I need to
> study the map. Maybe go for the two builds and support Tri - Pie.
For now let's say go to TYR. I just got a notice from Tony that he will be
bouncing me in BEL.
Not much we can do about it - I'll try to make it work.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Sorry Ben but I will negotiate from a power perspective. I am to paranoid
> right now. I will bounce you in holland and belgium. As a consession I am
> willing to bounce russia in sweden if you convoy to Norway and push for
BAR.
> The russian is in trouble down south, denying him a build in sweden will
> make him easy pray for us.
Ok. Bounce him in SWE. I am less than thrilled but you do get points for
telling me first.
> I can support you into Sweden in the spring, you build an army in EDI this
> year and convoy that to NWY. This will leave you with two units on STP in
> the fall. I will build a fleet in BER to push for BAL. This will ensure
you
> pick up sweden and STP next year whilst I push for WAR with the armies.
You
> said to let you know if i dont like something rather than lie to you. I
hope
> this offer is enough. With France picking up two and you I wouldnt feel
> safe.
Ok, as I said, I understand.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Hold on a sec. I can't convoy to Norway and bounce you in BEL. My army is
in YOR.
For me to take NWY I either convoy through NTH, or capture from NTH or NWG.
There is no convoy through NWG and bounce in BEL.
So. I will order convoy to BEL. If you want to bounce me in BEL, that's
fine; I think we will still have good options in the North in '02, along
the lines of my proposals before - F NWY - STP (or BAR), convoy to NWY,
etc. Obviously it would be much more difficult if you do not bounce Russia
in SWE.
Tell me if this compromise is acceptable.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
bounce me if you have to but my suggestion was to convoy to NWY and push NWG to BAR, build an army in EDI and convoy that in the spring to NWY. NWY could move to FIN or be supported into STP by BAR.
Message from Germany to England
** you can bounce me and take NWY. Fleet takes NWY and fleet or army bounces me in BEL **
Ben, I forgot to mention I dont fancy bouncing Russia if you are not moving to
NWY with the army and the fleet to BAR. Bouncing him would only be worthwhile
if I knew you were in NWY and BAR. By letting him build he will no doubt build
in the south and I wont have an enemy until next year. The builds I get from
BEL/HOL would be used for armies in MUN and KIE to move on russia in the spring
in a coordinated attack with you from NWY and BAR. The fleet in BER would be
used to attack BAL (with or without support from DEN).
Once again no hard feelings if you bounce with me in BEL but I
would be stupid to bounce Russia and have him team up with you next year. You
could support him to Sweden and team up with France. This would leave me with
three enemies.
I would rather play it safe and not bounce him and maybe just end up with two
enemies if worst comes to the worst. At least this way I could call on Russia
whom I could promis NWY.
Tony
Message from France to England
> For now let's say go to TYR. I just got a notice from Tony that he will
> be
> bouncing me in BEL.
>
Why did he tell you that he's bouncing you in Belgium? He's certainly been
looking for me to move to Nth in conjunction with that move, but I didn't
think he'd decided on it yet.
Erik
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I just got my receipt for this. I wrote it hours ago & received your note
since.
I will write you later but this note was sent *before* your last one to me.
Ben
> -----Original Message-----
> From: USTX Diplomacy Judge [mailto:ustx@spencersoft.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:16 AM
> To: benjamin.harris@mindspring.com; bharris@stattorney.org
> Subject: Re: USTX:c2 - F1901M germany
>
>
> USTX Diplomacy Judge
>
> now running njudge 1.4.0
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Please report judge problems to judgekeeper@spencersoft.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> :: Judge: USTX Game: C2 Variant: Standard
> :: Deadline: F1901M Mon Oct 20 2003 23:30:00 -0500
>
> Message sent to Germany:
>
> Message from benjamin.harris@mindspring.com as England to
> Germany in 'c2':
>
> Tony -
> Hold on a sec. I can't convoy to Norway and bounce you in
> BEL. My army is
> in YOR.
etc.
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Why did he tell you that he's bouncing you in Belgium? He's
> certainly been
> looking for me to move to Nth in conjunction with that move,
> but I didn't
> think he'd decided on it yet.
He told me ahead of time because there's nothing I can do about it. If he
tells me ahead of time, at least he doesn't seem like such a jerk.
Erik, will you go to TYR and seize BUR as you'd proposed? It was a good
plan & I didn't forget it. . . Let me know if you would like to try
something else.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> It's been a while between turns, so I
> wanted to check in. Everything good
> to go on that half of the board?
Ups and downs. I had been promised BEL but now I am learning I will be
bounced out; that's the way it goes.
How are things with you? Will Russia be getting RUM, do you think?
Ben
Message from Austria to England
(second copy, sorry if you ever receive the first one)
> Well supposedly Tony will let me into Belgium, which is nice.
What about Sweden? Do you think he will bounce it?
> I imagine you will be taking GRE? An excellent '01 for you, if you do.
Where did you hear that from? I know I wasn't very clear
with some of the others, but going for Gre would imply I
let Turkey fight Russia alone.
Philippe
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
I have some good news, which is that Tony will probably not be bouncing you
out of Sweden. He could be lying but I do not know why he would.
He has also been pushing hard to convince me to convoy the army into Norway.
I have told him no. Just something to bear in mind in your dealings with
him.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> > Well supposedly Tony will let me into Belgium, which is nice.
Actually now he says he will be bouncing me in BEL, which is not so nice.
> What about Sweden? Do you think he will bounce it?
No. I invite you to change his mind, if you can.
> > I imagine you will be taking GRE? An excellent '01 for
> you, if you do.
>
> Where did you hear that from? I know I wasn't very clear
> with some of the others, but going for Gre would imply I
> let Turkey fight Russia alone.
I was just guessing. Nobody said anything to me about GRE.
As I've said all along, I would like to see you working alongside Turkey.
Good luck, my friend.
Ben
Message from Austria to Turkey
Hi Jason,
This is just to confirmed Bud-Rum supported by Ser & Bul.
It's probably unncessary, but I didn't want to take any
chances following what I received from Ben. When even
those who approved of anti-russian plans expect me to go
for Greece, there's a risk you would also and I wanted to
be 100% clear about my intention. On the positive side, it's
proof that we are good at keeping secret ;-)
Yours truly,
Philippe
Message from England to England
I need AT to stick together as my guess is Tony will put Eric in Norway as
fast as he can. What I am hearing from Tony is that he is pretty much not
interested in GE working together & if I am correct I will be interested
later to see why. Still I will try to accommodate; no need to start a fire
if there isn't one going already. Also I received a new kind of errant
press - in Tony's game I'm gm'ing he sent a "press to e" in /that/ game that
he clearly meant to send to me in /this/ game. I let him know, in that
game.
Overall my confidence is fading, mostly because of my frustration trying to
deal with Tony.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> Actually now he says he will be bouncing me in BEL, which is not so nice.
In short, he's ready to declare war on you. Have you thought
of convoying to Nwy & move to Bar? At least this way you
make sure of another gain soon and 3 gains in 1901 for Tony
is bound to make other jalous ;-)
> No. I invite you to change his mind, if you can.
It's pointless. If I try to press the issue, I'm sure he won't
bounce Sweden. That's why I suggested you try to convince
him.
> I was just guessing. Nobody said anything to me about GRE.
>
> As I've said all along, I would like to see you working alongside Turkey.
OK. I was just trying to figure out where this was coming from.
> Good luck, my friend.
Good luck to you too! Hopefully, France will do the right thing
and joined you instead of letting Tony take over the world.
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
>> Actually now he says he will be bouncing me in BEL, which is not so nice.
> In short, he's ready to declare war on you. Have you thought
> of convoying to Nwy & move to Bar? At least this way you
> make sure of another gain soon and 3 gains in 1901 for Tony
> is bound to make other jalous ;-)
I have thought about that. On balance the disadvantages - three German builds to my one, out of position in the event of an FG, the extra enemy - seem to outweigh the advantages. On the other hand, I do not think I will be in a bad position to follow up against Russia in the North, should I manage some peaceful time on the EG front.
>> No. I invite you to change his mind, if you can.
>
> It's pointless. If I try to press the issue, I'm sure he won't
> bounce Sweden. That's why I suggested you try to convince
> him.
:-) It was pointless.
>> Good luck, my friend.
>
> Good luck to you too! Hopefully, France will do the right thing
> and joined you instead of letting Tony take over the world.
Tony might be good, but he's difficult to work with and something of a bully, so hopefully I will be able to have a French ally. If not, then I will have the excellent opportunity to observe you all from the Yahoo group. Not really my goal - I did that last time. ;o)
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
For the gallery I post here the press you sent to E in the other game. . .
***************
Message from tvernon@chello.nl as Turkey to England in 'lorax':
Ben, I forgot to mention I dont fancy bouncing Russia if you are not moving to NWY
with the army and the fleet to BAR. Bouncing him would only be worthwhile if I knew
you were in NWY and BAR. By letting him build he will no doubt build in the south
and I wont have an eney until next year. The builds I get from BEL/HOL would be
used for armies in MUN and KIE to move on russia in the spring in a coordinated
attack with you from NWY and BAR. The fleet in BER would be used to attack BAL (with
or without supp
ort from DEN). Once again no hard feelings if you bounce with me in BEL but I would
be stupid to bounce Russia and have him team up with you next year. You could support
him to Sweden and team up with France. This would leave me with three enemies.
I would rather play it safe and not bounce him and maybe just end up with two enemies
if worst comes to the worst. At least this way I could call on Russia whom I could
promis NWY.
Tony
****************
As I recall I responded to a similar note but I may not have.
Ok, as I see it, we are in a position in which you will be claiming DEN and HOL and I will be claiming NWY and bouncing you in BEL. I think this is a nice stable opening in which we have each claimed a modest piece of real estate and we are each in a good position to go against Russia next year, if we still want to. I do not know why we wouldn't, as I said, I have a nice attack in the North and you can proceed as you like in the east/south.
Ben
Message from France to England
I don't think there's an issue that we need Bur and Tyr -- that's pretty
clear now. The big question is simply, do I fake an additional attack
against Italy, get two builds, and head for Tyr / Bur in the spring, or do
we go for Tyr / Bur now?
Erik
Message from France to England
Tony:
Did you tell England that you're bouncing him in Bel/Hol? He's freaking
out now, screaming bloody murder.
Erik
Message from Russia to Italy
>I think they are totally in bed with Turkey, all the while asking me
>when I am going to attack Turkey.
I think you are probably correct, though obviously he'd be asking
about when you will attack Turkey whether he's with you or against
you.
Wish me luck, and consider me to have done the same for you.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Thanks for the followup. As it turns out, I lied in my broadcast. I
was subsequently unavailable all weekend, and only just now got a
chance to check my mail.
I understand your logic about the opening. If you can get Germany to
open against me, especially with a friendly England, I can see how
that can't be passed up.
I haven't heard the warm fuzzies you've shared about England. FWIW,
Turkey is convinced he is going to put the army into Nwy and come
after me.
I'm on a short deadline here, without much time to respond to press,
so will keep this brief. I'll try to be online right before the
deadline if there's anything critical you want to pass along. (It's
not looking like I'm going to have much to pass along myself.)
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Russia
Dear Diary,
Terrible time to get so busy, but real life comes first. Then again,
with my recent games and performance to this point, time to negotiate
may well not make much difference.
I'm going to make a bet that there is an AT and move defensively:
Ukr-Gal, Mos-Ukr, Sev-Bla. Sort of a Russian hedgehog. Will serve to
piss off Austria if he's not already against me, but given my
feelings about Austria that seems my best bet. If he had said he
wasn't going to deny me Rum I might still have gone defensive, but I
tried to be very clear that I wanted him to tell me that wasn't
happening, and unless there's a language issue (which doesn't seem to
be the case) he sidestepped my question.
(I'm also be counting on Turkey moving Ank-Bla or it'll be REALLY ugly!)
May also mean that I end up thrown in bed with Germany in the north
(to keep him from joining in on me). We'll see. It'd be ironic, but a
good indication of skill on Tony's part, to end up in the position I
wanted to avoid from the beginning.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
I don't know if I owe you press at this point. My apologies for the
silence. After my broadcast, I've been away, and am only now grabbing
a few minutes on the lunch break.
As things are going it looks like discussing the sporting events of
the last week would be more enjoyable than going over move options,
but don't have much time for either.
Anything we need to talk about? I'm still counting on that F Nwy and
the army going into the lower country so I can work with you!
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Germany
I indeed sent a reply to Ben only I did this in another game where he is GM.
The England in that game assumed it was for another game (as he isnt called
Ben and my moves didnt make sense ;-) and informed me of the error. At
roughly the same time Ben in formed me as master of the error. Neither
England in that game or in this game seemed to have received the press I
sent to both mentioning the error before they spotted it. hahahaha it can
get very confusing reply press in serveral games at once.
Message from Germany to England
I have just mentioned the error in the other game to the commentors.
I am sure I had sent the origional message in this game too but anyway you
received it.
I would like to point out for the record (which we may have already done)
that neither Ben nor I noticed that he was
gm-ing a game I am playing in. Just goes to show that a good GM in a good
game can be completely invisible and forgotten. In fact I may not have
joined this game if I did notice the connection. As GM Ben can ofcourse
follow all press in the other game. Something which I dont believe he does.
That way he would see what a lying, decieving, backstabbing neighbour I can
be ;-)
OK, back to this game.
Ben, I know allowing me into BEL and HOL whilst you take NWY and push at BAR
requires a lot of trust but it would put you in a better position to attack
Russia next year. As stated I have no problem with you bouncing me in BEL
but realize then that I wont bounce Russia in Sweden. No need to upset a
neighbour when there is no need to do so.
I wouldnt want EFR ganging up on me. For now I will play safe, accept the
bounce in Belgium but not bounce Sweden.
I may need his help ;-) This should pick me up a few more honesty-up-front
points Ben. Moves are in.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I asked Greg for a deadline extension because of the Judge acting up. But
it seems ok now & I am guessing you & I are caught up with communications.
> bounce me if you have to but my suggestion was to convoy to
> NWY and push NWG to BAR, build an army in EDI and convoy that
> in the spring to NWY. NWY could move to FIN or be supported
> into STP by BAR.
My thinking was in the fall, as I said, take NWY with a fleet which then in
the spring could go to BAR or to STP while I follow through with the convoy
to NWY. This could be done with me taking BEL, as we'd discussed earlier,
or with us bouncing in BEL, as you now say you'd like. Either way you could
support me into SWE in the fall while you pick up BEL.
I am frankly reluctant to push all the way to BAR if I am only getting one
build, as I would be pretty far out of position should a FG emerge. Also
the convoy to NWY as you know is pretty much a declaration of war against
Russia which I would eschew, if I can delay it by a season.
If you do not want to bounce Russia in SWE that is fine, as I think you
rightly point out the dot will probably be used for a southern build.
Ben
Message from Master to all
Players,
Since mail to and from the judge has been running extremely slow over
the past several days, I'm extending the deadline.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from France to England
I think it's best to go for Tyr and Bur now. If I get two builds, I'll
have to build A Par and A Mar, and that's a sure tip-off anyway. Better to
get the position now.
Given that, can you bounce Germany in Holland and let him take Bel? Better
to have Ruhr unoccupied and unable to support Munich - Bur. I can then
move A Par - Pic and support you into Bel, forcing him into a guessing
game.
Also, maybe you should let Russia know that he's not in danger of a
northern assault right now. We might need F Swe for our cause.
Erik
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Hi there, I am still waiting to hear from France. I am assuming that all
> will go well.
Good, good. My guess is he doesn't realize you are waiting - I will write
him a note.
> Remind me again, yor - bel and in the fall nwg - bar and bel to nwy
or NWY - STP, BEL - NWY, depending.
> along
> with a fleet build in edi which will move on nwg? What will your second
> build be? I am a little worried about two fleets, this would allow NTH to
> move on HEL or SKA backed up by a supported move to NTH. With a hostile
> Russia this would spell trouble for Germany. I am thinking along the lines
> of one build for you. With two army builds I pose no threat. If you stick
to
> the plan amd convoy yor - nwy next year then I can let you into BEL. Just
> thoughts. My main fear is me bouncing Russia and having France/England
> picking up two and moving on me. Do you understand the fears?
> As you know I prefer to negotiate from a position where I have an
upperhand
> (even if only slight).
As I recall I sent a press saying my second build would be an army. I
understand your fears completely.
In the near future, if all goes well, the army would only be to garrison
the home front. You are not the only one with reasonable fears, after all.
. .
> He who dares wins ;-)
I couldn't have said it better myself. Are we going to do it, or what?
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Please send (another) confirmation as a group press. Tony claims to be
waiting for it.
I'll write more later - family business right now.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
Did you still want to hear some kind of confirmation from France or are we
set?
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Mr. Face -
Welcome back from your vacation.
I will be landing in Norway with a fleet, as promised.
I am exceedingly curious to know what you've been hearing from Andy. As
far as I can tell, he's on good terms with *all* his neighbors, so
something will have to give. . .
Anyway, welcome back.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Phillipe -
> (second copy, sorry if first one was received)
The judge is acting up. I just got your press last night - I don't know
when you sent it - and this is a second copy of the reply I already sent:
Phillipe -
> It's been a while since we last talked and I was
> wondering how you were doing on your side?
Well supposedly Tony will let me into Belgium, which is nice.
I imagine you will be taking GRE? An excellent '01 for you, if you do.
Good luck!
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Message from erik@spamcop.net as France to England in 'c2':
>
> Tony:
>
> Did you tell England that you're bouncing him in Bel/Hol? He's freaking
> out now, screaming bloody murder.
>
> Erik
Tut, tut. I am perfectly content to bounce him & I do not mind at all
getting one build as England in '01. Screaming bloody murder? Surely you
are being unfair. . .
On to the more important stuff:
> I think it's best to go for Tyr and Bur now. If I get two builds, I'll
> have to build A Par and A Mar, and that's a sure tip-off anyway. Better to
> get the position now.
I agree with this 100%.
> Given that, can you bounce Germany in Holland and let him take Bel? Better
> to have Ruhr unoccupied and unable to support Munich - Bur. I can then
> move A Par - Pic and support you into Bel, forcing him into a guessing
> game.
With the deadline extended I have time to think about this. I will get
back to you - I will do one or the other, probably bounce HOL as you
suggest.
> Also, maybe you should let Russia know that he's not in danger of a
> northern assault right now. We might need F Swe for our cause.
I am trying to cultivate Russia as an ally for us. We'll see how it goes.
What are you hearing from him?
Ben
Message from Italy to all
Folks....we have had more than enough time to put these bloody orders
in....
If you have wait set....get rid of it.
If you havent put your orders in yet......get with the program, its taken
19 days to play 1 season...and its been 13 days since Spring 01 processed,
this is not rocket science...noone has more than 4 units on the board.
rant off.
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben, that was an old message which seems to have been shuffeled in by the
judge.
For now I understand we are bouncing in BEL, I am not bouncing Russia.
I would ofcourse prefer you convoy to NWY and push for BAR. You have stated
the problems with that scenario which I can understand.
Message from Germany to England
We are set
Message from England to France and Germany
> Message from benjamin.harris@mindspring.com as England to
> Germany in 'c2':
>
> Tony -
> Did you still want to hear some kind of confirmation from
> France or are we
> set?
>
> Ben
>
> End of message.
This is from a few days ago. Please disregard.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> I have thought about that. On balance the disadvantages - three German builds to my one, out of position in the event of an FG,
the extra enemy - seem to outweigh the advantages. On the other hand, I do not think I will be in a bad position to follow up
against Russia in the North, should I manage some peaceful time on the EG front.
Well, there's no way to be sure of France's reaction, but if
you had to choose between a british who's clearly not
moving against you and a very strong Germany, who would
you side with?
> Tony might be good, but he's difficult to work with and something of a bully, so hopefully I will be able to have a French ally.
If not, then I will have the excellent opportunity to observe you all from the Yahoo group. Not really my goal - I did that last
time. ;o)
No no, I'm sure you aren't leaving us soon!
Philippe.
P.-S. I have just received your copy of the reply you sent
me before, thanks for sending it just in case.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
You're the player who had a baby, aren't you! It just came back to me. I
hope you're sleeping through the nights by now. . .
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> I have just mentioned the error in the other game to the commentors.
> I am sure I had sent the origional message in this game too but anyway you
> received it.
Yeah, I was discussing it with the gallery too.
> I would like to point out for the record (which we may have already done)
> that neither Ben nor I noticed that he was
> gm-ing a game I am playing in. Just goes to show that a good GM in a good
> game can be completely invisible and forgotten. In fact I may not have
> joined this game if I did notice the connection. As GM Ben can ofcourse
> follow all press in the other game. Something which I dont believe he
does.
> That way he would see what a lying, decieving, backstabbing neighbour I
can
> be ;-)
In my games in which luminaries such as yourself play, I follow the partial
press alittle more. In all games I gm I try to look at broadcasts &
oddities, such as multiple presses from one power to another without
responses. If I recall correctly, in the other game you had back to back
presses from T to E, so I checked. I wish I had *more* time to read the
partial press in some of the games I gm, but I do not have the time or
energy.
> OK, back to this game.
> Ben, I know allowing me into BEL and HOL whilst you take NWY and push at
BAR
> requires a lot of trust but it would put you in a better position to
attack
> Russia next year. As stated I have no problem with you bouncing me in BEL
> but realize then that I wont bounce Russia in Sweden. No need to upset a
> neighbour when there is no need to do so.
> I wouldnt want EFR ganging up on me. For now I will play safe, accept the
> bounce in Belgium but not bounce Sweden.
> I may need his help ;-) This should pick me up a few more honesty-up-front
> points Ben. Moves are in.
Ok, I think we are on the same page here. I don't mind the decision not to
bounce in SWE, in fact if Russia builds in the south it could work to our
benefit.
One thing bugging me - I got an errant press from France, meant for you, in
which he tells you I'm screaming my head off, or words to that effect, over
Belgium. I can see why as France he would want to stimulate friction
between E and G but there is no truth to that - I am pretty easy-going and
I am not going to have my boat rocked by getting one build as England in
'01.
Moves are in for myself as well.
Ben
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
This judge has been a little funky. I'm not sure everything has made its
way between us.
Did you tell England that you're bouncing him in Bel/Hol? He's freaking
out now, screaming bloody murder.
In any case, F Eng seems like the best plan. I can live with one build for
now. A Pie has to come back, given Austria's reticence.
Are we still pretending like we've got a triple, now that you've announced
your intention to deny England a build?
Erik
Message from France to England
> Tut, tut. I am perfectly content to bounce him & I do not mind at all
> getting one build as England in '01. Screaming bloody murder? Surely
> you
> are being unfair. . .
Whoopsie. I was fishing for a reaction from Germany. I figured it was
safer to say that than "Are you really planning on bouncing England? He's
perfectly okay with that." I wasn't sure what your approach was going to
be with him on that issue.
> > Also, maybe you should let Russia know that he's not in danger of a
> > northern assault right now. We might need F Swe for our cause.
> I am trying to cultivate Russia as an ally for us. We'll see how it
> goes.
> What are you hearing from him?
He's still worried that you're heading north. He's way behind, but I think
everybody's correspondence is a little out of whack from the judge delays.
He has no idea what's going with Turkey, so we can expect him to at least
cover south.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Thanks for the reply. Looks like we've got a little more time to catch up
here.
I am doing what I can to ensure that England doesn't come north after you.
I need him firmly entrenched against Tony, and I need Tony butting heads
with him.
Did Tony talk to you about going after England last week? I'm trying to
figure how much bull he's slinging in his mail to me.
Erik
Message from Italy to Russia
>
> >I think they are totally in bed with Turkey, all the while asking me
> >when I am going to attack Turkey.
>
> I think you are probably correct, though obviously he'd be asking
> about when you will attack Turkey whether he's with you or against
> you.
Yeah....good point....I just want this turn to process...there has been a
month to put orders in...Im starting to get bored...and that is bad.
>
> Wish me luck, and consider me to have done the same for you.
>
consider it done...and thank you
Andy
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> I don't know if I owe you press at this point. My apologies for the
> silence. After my broadcast, I've been away, and am only now grabbing
> a few minutes on the lunch break.
I suspect you've gotten my press since you sent this one, but perhaps not.
Confounded Judge!
> As things are going it looks like discussing the sporting events of
> the last week would be more enjoyable than going over move options,
> but don't have much time for either.
Raiders are giving the Chiefs almost all they can handle, right now. 10-3
Chiefs with 8 minutes to go in the 4th.
> Anything we need to talk about? I'm still counting on that F Nwy and
> the army going into the lower country so I can work with you!
The army in the low country will probably be bounced by Germany, who is
reneging on earlier negotiations. No great loss for me, and an important
lesson to bear in mind for future negotiations.
He has been promising the world to me if only I will go to BAR and convoy
to NWY, which I told him I would not do.
Anyway, perhaps the Raiders will pull off the upset. Teams with perfect
records are boring.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Buchanon just let the punt through his fingers. First & goal Chiefs. I'm
going to sleep.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> Well supposedly Tony will let me into Belgium, which is nice.
What about Sweden? Do you think he will bounce it?
> I imagine you will be taking GRE? An excellent '01 for you, if you do.
Where did you hear that from? I know I wasn't very clear
with some of the others, but going for Gre would imply I
let Turkey fight Russia alone.
Philippe
Message from Turkey to Austria
Confirm that I'm supporting Bud - Rum with Bul. What exactly did Ben say?
jason
Message from Turkey to England
Hey Ben,
No, I don't figure Russia will get Rum - Austria's pretty gung-ho about
it. I guess he could cross me up, but he's been fairly adamant.
Just wish the turn would move on....
jason
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I know we are all set - my orders are in.
No particular reason to think this will reach you. . .
Ben
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
You there? Haven't heard much in a couple of days -- I think these
extended breaks have been grinding this game down a bit.
Given that, I will definitely be pulling back from Italy to focus on
England. Austria just isn't giving me the support that you are, so it
makes sense to work where I've got some help. MAO - Eng it is.
Of course, you'll have two builds to my one, but I think I can live with
the imparity for a season, especially given your block of England and the
advantage that fleet will give us.
You'd said that Russia had offered help against England -- given Turkey's
moves, do you really think this is likely?
Erik
Message from France to England and Germany
Gents:
I'm going for two builds and holding onto Piedmont in an attempt to coerce
Turkey into assisting me. Just wanted to confirm with both of you. The
timing of press coming out of this judge has confused things a little, so
I think it might be best if you guys could drop a quick line outlining the
plans for next season, while you're at it.
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben:
Okay, Tyr and Bur it is. Keep your fingers crossed. We'll both be down a
build compared to Germany, but I think we'll be in a good position -- and
maybe we can even get some help from Austria or Russia next season if they
Germany as a target of opportunity.
This game has already started to drag a little. Time to pick it back up.
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
Woohoo! The Judge is back up!
> Okay, Tyr and Bur it is. Keep your fingers crossed.
Ok. :-I
Here's hoping.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
I am extremely disappointed the Judge swallowed the press I sent you about
the end of the Raiders game Monday night, which I sent right after that
kick returner let the punt slip through his fingers.
As I recall it did not have anything Dip-related.
Yes I will capture NWY with a fleet. Between RUM and SWE I think you have
a fair chance of getting one of them.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> No, I don't figure Russia will get Rum - Austria's pretty gung-ho about
> it. I guess he could cross me up, but he's been fairly adamant.
The longer you can ride that horse the better for you, my friend. The T/A
will favor you as long as Andy is in Italy and your growth is comparable to
Austria's.
> Just wish the turn would move on....
Now that the Judge is up it shouldn't be long.
Ben
Message from England to England
Thanks to Greg for taking care of the Judge.
Ok, predictions for the fall, in order from most likely to craziest guess:
England:
YOR - NTH - HOL
NWG - NWY
France:
MAO - POR
GAS - BUR
PIE - TYR
I was actually not expecting this - I thought he would be ordering GAS -
SPA, MAO - POR, & building in MAR and PAR. But this is what he sent & I
won't ask him not to. . . Also one thing about his missent press irked me
- it suggested he was aware of the possibility of the bounce in BEL but he
hadn't said anything to me. He being an alliance player I'd have hoped to
have heard, but my best guess is he will keep the faith.
Turkey:
BUL - RUM
ANK - BLA
ARM - SEV
Austria:
TRI - ALB (wild guess)
SER s BUL - RUM
BUD - GAL
Italy:
VEN h
APU - ION - TUN
Keeps his options open & should not worry Jason too much, given the
diplomatic relationship in place there.
Germany:
RUH - BEL
KIE - HOL
DEN s BOT - SWE
I don't really think he's going to do this. I have no idea what DEN will
do.
Russia:
I saved this for last because it is the most painful.
UKR - GAL
SEV - BLA
MOS - UKR
BOT - SWE
This could easily be wishful thinking on my part. MOS - STP would be a
natural explanation for why MOS held in the spring. On the other hand, if
he's been colluding with Germany for a spring '02 capture of NWY, then he
could just as easily have moved south & built in STP. So like with France
I will continue to hope for the best.
Ben
Message from Master to all
Players,
Sorry about the long delay here. It seems that a few days ago,
everything that could go wrong did. Fortunately, I think that I've got
it all straightened out and the judge should be running better than
ever now. However, just to be sure, I'd like each of you to submit
press saying that you're not having any more trouble with the judge.
Once I see that from each of you, I'll remove wait and let the turn,
finally, process. The deadline is currently set for this Monday, so
it'll process then at the latest.
Greg, GM
C2
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
I have heard from one of the other eastern powers that Germany is
pressuring you to engage me in the North.
I think it's kind of bizarre that I'd be hearing this from a third party to
the conversation, but if it happens to be true, please bear in mind (a)
Tony will as we've discussed say anything to anybody and (b) noone wants to
be in a war on two fronts at the same time. Garrison, as we'd discussed;
that's fine, but I hope if you are hearing foolishness from Germany - or
anyone else for that matter - you will disregard it & we will proceed with
NWY & STP unmolested by each other.
Anyway I think I am probably telling you things you already know, but after
I just got this odd press, I thought I'd write you.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Ben, here is press number two I received.
> One thing bugging me - I got an errant press from France, meant for you,
in
which he tells you I'm screaming my head off, or words to that effect, over
Belgium.>
I did not and still have not received any such press from France, maybe he
never noiced that you received it instead of me
Message from Germany to France
> This judge has been a little funky. I'm not sure everything has made its
way between us>
Hi Erik, this is the first time I have received anything from you for some
time. If you have sent more then I havent received it.
> Did you tell England that you're bouncing him in Bel/Hol? He's freaking
out now, screaming bloody murder.>
Well I told both of you in a joint press that I would be moving to Bel/Hol.
> In any case, F Eng seems like the best plan. I can live with one build for
now. A Pie has to come back, given Austria's reticence.>
I agree on the F ENG. It would give us the best chance for next year.
> Are we still pretending like we've got a triple, now that you've announced
your intention to deny England a build?>
Yes, he did seem to accept this. As you say the judge does seem to be a
little lost.
England is still convinced we are on a tripple, thats why the move to ENG
wil freak him out.
Message from Germany to England
> No particular reason to think this will reach you. . .>
Well it did B en, I also received the on from France where he stated that
you were ranting and raving about BEl/Hol.
I have another 3 mails in the inbox, including one from the GM.
Message from Germany to France
Yes its been very quiet. I also think people havent been sending in press as
it doesnt seem to be going anywhere.
I have just received a bucket load in my in-box.
Good to hear you are onboard for the fight against England.
I will be bouncing him in Bel/Hol. No doubt he will go for Hol to bloack a
fleet build in KIE, I would. But i cant risk it so I will be moving on
Hol/Bel. He then only gets one build.
Russia is willing to help out where he can. If things work out well he will
build in STP(nc). He definitely doesnt want me to bounce him in Sweden.
Something I wont be doing, if he is unable to build in the north then he is
willing to move on NWY next year.
Message from Germany to England and France
Good to hear some news. As for next year, depending on the outcome of this
year I hope to be moving against Russia up north with England.
Down south I hope to be moving against Italy with France.
Message from Germany to England
> You're the player who had a baby, aren't you! It just came back to me. I
hope you're sleeping through the nights by now. . .>
Hi Ben just received a ton of press from you, maybe some press the judge had
lying around
No, no kids for me. My 3 are 13, 15 and 17.
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Confirm that I'm supporting Bud - Rum with Bul. What exactly did Ben say?
He was infering I was going for Greece. Since I wasn't very
clear with the rest of the board, they don't need to know our
plan afterall, I expected him to have heard it from someone
else, but he told me later on that he was just guessing.
Anyway, wether there's a rumor running around or he really
was only guessing, the important part for me was that you
knew the real deal.
Philippe
Message from Russia to England
The whole week I was away wan an amazing sequence of sporting events that
all went exactly as I didn't want them to. But fun to watch nonetheless.
>I think it's kind of bizarre that I'd be hearing this from a third party to
>the conversation, but if it happens to be true, please bear in mind (a)
>Tony will as we've discussed say anything to anybody and (b) noone wants to
>be in a war on two fronts at the same time. Garrison, as we'd discussed;
>that's fine, but I hope if you are hearing foolishness from Germany - or
>anyone else for that matter - you will disregard it & we will proceed with
>NWY & STP unmolested by each other.
I've had numerous requests that I move to StP or build in StP in return for
being granted Swe. It was even suggested that if I only get one build that
I should build F StP/nc because I won't be making any progress in the south
if AT cooperate. Somehow, I don't get the idea he's really got my best
interests at heart in suggesting northern builds. I've given up on
responding to those requests directly, and just respond with appreciation
for the oft-repeated promises not to bounce me in Swe. I haven't been
warning you about any ongoing requests because, frankly, they are old news
at this point and I get the impression you've got a clear sense of Tony's
style and don't need me playing chicken little over here.
I think it would be more useful to you if I let you know if Tony ever asks
me NOT to setup to attack you, as that would give you a sense of whether he
ever gets serious about working with you rather than stirring up trouble.
But I will try to remember to keep you up to date on what the general tenor
of conversations is with Tony.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Austria
There's a message I sent you during the troubled times that I don't see
delivered.
It's been long enough that I don't remember the whole context, but I
believe I basically said that reading your last message to me, you didn't
directly answer my question about whether you would be using Bud to contest
Rum. You hinted you wouldn't, but reading the message it seemed like might
be trying to leave a situation where helping deny me Rum was not
"technically" a lie.
I hope that's not your style, but not having met you before, I just wanted
to get a more specific confirmation. I hope I said this more diplomatically
in that lost message, but I'm in a rush and don't want to hold things up in
terms of seeing this turn process.
--- Tzarface
Message from Russia to Russia
I also had a diary entry that got lost during the judge problems, so for
all of you that missed hearing me talk to myself:
Major confusion on my part around the vacation. My plan to move Ukr-Gal,
Mos-Ukr, Sev-Bla was something that made sense to me if I could get Andy to
hit Gre or Alb (to undercut Philippe's position). The logic was if AT are
going to bounce me in Rum, then I get position for Rum and a build from Swe
allows me some defense. I had forgotten that Andy had said no, which just
makes a move that just pisses off Philippe if he isn't attacking me
(whether or not he plans to in 02) and allows him to take some sort of
"moral high ground" if he is. If Austria is not distracted, then setting up
a three strength attack on Rum is probably counter productive anyway,
because I'd be faced with trying to defend Sev and Rum when AT inevitably
combined against me in both places.
So I changed my moves a while ago to the more standard Ukr S Sev-Rum,
Mos-Sev. I don't really care if Jason lets me cover Sev with the army (Arm
H) if I get Rum -- that just lets me further say that I'm not a threat to
him. If there is an AT, then I'll lose F Rum, but trading F Sev for A Sev
makes that worth it. (That is, if I build an army and then disband a fleet,
my defense still looks better to me).
As for Philippe, I still suspect he's looking more at AT than AR for the
reasons I outlined to Jason -- he has to be worried about a big R and a big
I, especially with Andy as one of those players (I don't *think* I'm well
enough known to be considered either a good or bad player by anyone by
reputation, though my JDPR might make some nervous). While I'd like to give
him more reasons to think I'm going to want to grow from the north (and
therefore against Germany), I'm still a little worried that there's an A
and G are sharing enough info to make that risky. That's probably stupid,
as I think about it. I'll probably talk about that more in Fall.
I doubt Philippe will actually move to Gal -- he doesn't have enough units
yet to be effective there -- unless maybe he is certain that I am getting
bounced in Swe. But even if there is a strong AT, I don't see why he should
overextend himself at this point -- which would simultaneously allow me to
build a defender in War and invite Andy to take a shot at Gre/Alb. If he
really wants to blatantly support AT, keeping me out of Rum looks more
likely to me (which is what led to the idea of Ukr-Gal, Mos-Ukr in the
first place).
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
I sent a broadcast that didn't go through. In it I admitted that at the
time I still had wait set. Because of my vacation and the unforeseen but in
hindsight should-have-been-expected increased workload at work around it I
had only had a day or two to send any press. I also indicated in that
message that I was unsetting wait, but I gather the "set nowait" command
also got lost with the broadcast.
So on the one hand I was defending myself for having wait set while on the
other hand apologizing for slowing things down. I'm sending along another
"set nowait" command with this message.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> The whole week I was away wan an amazing sequence of sporting events that
> all went exactly as I didn't want them to. But fun to watch nonetheless.
You are a good-natured fan. Another surprise from a member of the Raider
Nation! ;o)
> >I think it's kind of bizarre that I'd be hearing this from a third party
to
> >the conversation, but if it happens to be true, please bear in mind (a)
> >Tony will as we've discussed say anything to anybody and (b) noone wants
to
> >be in a war on two fronts at the same time. Garrison, as we'd discussed;
> >that's fine, but I hope if you are hearing foolishness from Germany - or
> >anyone else for that matter - you will disregard it & we will proceed
with
> >NWY & STP unmolested by each other.
>
> I've had numerous requests that I move to StP or build in StP in return
for
> being granted Swe. It was even suggested that if I only get one build that
> I should build F StP/nc because I won't be making any progress in the
south
> if AT cooperate. Somehow, I don't get the idea he's really got my best
> interests at heart in suggesting northern builds.
:-o
> I've given up on
> responding to those requests directly, and just respond with appreciation
> for the oft-repeated promises not to bounce me in Swe. I haven't been
> warning you about any ongoing requests because, frankly, they are old news
> at this point and I get the impression you've got a clear sense of Tony's
> style and don't need me playing chicken little over here.
You hit the nail on the head. I feel alittle sheepish for even having
bothered you about it, but it's always nice to get your press, anyway.
> I think it would be more useful to you if I let you know if Tony ever asks
> me NOT to setup to attack you, as that would give you a sense of whether
he
> ever gets serious about working with you rather than stirring up trouble.
> But I will try to remember to keep you up to date on what the general
tenor
> of conversations is with Tony.
Thank you. Not really necessary beyond what you've been doing, as I said.
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> > You're the player who had a baby, aren't you! It just came back to me.
I
> hope you're sleeping through the nights by now. . .>
>
> Hi Ben just received a ton of press from you, maybe some press the judge
had
> lying around
> No, no kids for me. My 3 are 13, 15 and 17.
Old press I suppose; I don't think I've written more than one press since
the Judge came back up.
I must have been thinking of another game; some Turkey somewhere with a new
child. . .
Ben
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> > No particular reason to think this will reach you. . .>
>
> Well it did B en, I also received the on from France where he stated that
> you were ranting and raving about BEl/Hol.
> I have another 3 mails in the inbox, including one from the GM.
As you may have guessed this was sent several days ago.
Waiting for the moves to process. *snore*
Ben
Message from Master to all
Players,
I've removed wait, since all seven players seem to be able to access
the judge. If any of you have wait set, please remove it, and maybe
we'll finally get this turn processed.
Greg, GM
C2
Austria: Army Budapest → Rumania
Austria: Army Serbia SUPPORT Army Budapest → Rumania
Austria: Fleet Trieste SUPPORT Italian Army Apulia → Venice (*void*)
England: Fleet North Sea CONVOY Army Yorkshire → Holland
England: Fleet Norwegian Sea → Norway
England: Army Yorkshire → North Sea → Holland (*bounce*)
France: Army Gascony → Burgundy
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Spain (south coast)
France: Army Piedmont → Tyrolia
Germany: Fleet Denmark SUPPORT Russian Fleet Gulf of Bothnia → Sweden
Germany: Army Kiel → Holland (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Ruhr → Belgium
Italy: Army Apulia → Ionian Sea → Greece
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea CONVOY Army Apulia → Greece
Italy: Army Venice → Trieste (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Gulf of Bothnia → Sweden
Russia: Army Moscow → Sevastopol (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol → Rumania (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Ukraine SUPPORT Fleet Sevastopol → Rumania
Turkey: Fleet Ankara → Black Sea
Turkey: Army Armenia → Sevastopol (*bounce*)
Turkey: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Austrian Army Budapest → Rumania
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