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Message from Germany to Germany
Ahhhhh the beauty lies in the simplicity.
Maybe I should have looked at the JDPR's in detail. The taking of MUN although of no great problem was a surprise. So too was the apparent lack of co-ordination of EF moves.
Maybe it was reversed psychology applied by France but I was expecting more from EF in the attack.
In hindsight I over reacted, I read more into the possibilities than were probably being explored by FE.
The taking of MUN could have easily been avoided, I reasoned that because of this he wouldnt even attempt it.
In hindsight a shame because I was exploring serveral moves and had typed them in before submitting the orders. I had ordered bel - pic. ber - mun supported by kiel and mun - ruh. These would have been ideal in hindsight. Although who knows what may have happened then.
I am a little worried now about ska - den supported by Sweden, it may have been a deal they struck.
Anyway the game is on. I do have a question to put to AI. My gut feeling tells me that RT were allied all along. A very nice move indeed by both of them if this was the case.
I mentioned early in the game that I didn’t believe that Turkey acted alone when moving on Russia from the word go. I made the mistake of assuming that this was in conjunction with Austria.
I don’t believe that Russia was able to sway the position diplomatically, if he did then more the credit to him.
At least we now have a game on our hands. Let’s see how the diploming goes.
Message from Germany to England
The beauty of the moves made by France lay in their simplicity, the taking of MUN could have easily been avoided as it can easily be retaken. The more worrying is the situation in the east, RT were obviously allied from the start. The mistake I made was to assume that Turkey and Austria was allied.
The juggernaut will no doubt start rolling soon. It seems we are at a crossroad.
OK, it’s only the fall of 1902 coming up time to sit back and reflect on the situation.
I can support DEN and move/bounce to HOL. Unless you have support into DEN or BEL then this would mean a disband by you.
On the other hand I could support you into Sweden if you cut support from NWY.
I was a little amazed last move, it looked as though you and France weren’t really co-ordinating moves.
Your move to SKA and to DEN seemed a little illogical. if I had moved on SKA or HEL hell (TOSS OF COIN BUT IT FELL ON ITS EDGE) then you would have been in bigger trouble. I had to cut support from NTH as I had agreed this with Russia as part of the deal made when he built an army in STP.
I didn’t fancy facing you and France alone, something I am sure you understand.
For now I am more concerned with Russia than anyone else.
What is you evaluation of the situation?
Look forward to hearing from you.
Message from Germany to France
The beauty lies in the simplicity of the moves or did you use reversed psychology?
The fact that MUN could easily have been held led me to believe you wouldn’t attack it, especially not if you were working with England around BEL. In hindsight I understand now why he requested me to move to PIC. I didn’t move there because I was convinced the pair of you was working together and that it therefor was a trap..
Maybe that's why he mentioned it so that I wouldn’t go there. Don’t you just love diplomacy.
OK, MUN can easily be retaken, ruh cuts bur support and I use BER and KIE to retake it.
But for now I am more worried about RT, especially R.
The thing I like about France is the ability to switch direction whenever the need be.
Looking at the board I see several possible means of development.
Either Russia sticks with me (I cut NTH as agreed upon for him building STP) or he supports SKA into DEN.
This may be possible if he wishes that EF remain at equal strength and at some time in the near future turn on each other so that he can concentrate on attaining STP through to TUN. The juggernaut is on.
In the long term this spells trouble for you as Turkey sweeps west. Faced with a strong England and an up and coming Turkey you will have your hands full.
Another development could be that you move to ENG and take BEL. This will set us up for an attack on England next year. I have to retake MUN if only to force EF troops closer together so that you can both fight over BEL/HOL when the time comes. Look at the possibility of pushing MAO - ENG, having BUR take BEL supported by PIC. You get the build you want. In the spring of next year you push ENG - IRI and BRE - ENG or you convoy directly to WAL. I have to retake MUN as suggested as it is guaranteed and you cant stop it. It also concentrates my forces. You will need PIC/BUR to remove BEL and someone would have to prevent the retreat to HOL.
I always play the board as is, it is only the fall of 1902. The spring is always a paranoid time. The dust has settled and we now have to look at meaningful relations without losing overall view of the developments around us. If RG stick together then England is facing a disband. You always have the build from POR to fall back on when needed. Take BEL now and lets work together on removing England..
Let me know your thoughts.
I must admit that I nearly pissed myself laughing after receiving press in 1901 from Russia, Austria and Italy. All wondering why you went to PIE. As stated it was only the spring and for all I know EF could have come after me straight from the gate. Or maybe EG or EF could have came straight out of the gate. That’s what's so annoying about s1901, it can go either way depending on X to the power of 10000 different reasons.
The game is now on, let’s decide what is wise.
Message from Germany to Russia
Well that went as planned and agreed upon, except for France sneaking into MUN although that can easily be rectified.
I am glad to see that you and Turkey sorted out your differences.
I hope I have proven that when allied I will stick to what is agreed upon.
I assume you have no intention of supporting SKA - DEN. Working together with me against England ensures that any gains you make west results in having less to conquer between STP and TUN.
Is there any chance that you would consider supporting DEN? Looking at the board England must know that if you are not working with him then you will defending NWY with support from Sweden. We could use this to our advantage. Offer him SKA - DEN, this ensures that he wont be using two units on NWY.
This would allow Sweden to support DEN. My aim is to get you into NTH ASAP, which would enable a convoy to England. I have to break the EF alliance. A strong EF is not in your benefit either.
Let me know your thoughts on how to proceed, look forward to hearing from you.
Message from Germany to Austria and Italy
Well well well........
In the beginning we spoke of AIG, then came the spring moves. It looked as though AT were working together.
I recall stating that I dint believe that Turkey acted alone, the assumption was that this was in conjunction with an AT alliance. Now it seems apparent that RT were allied all along.
Judging by the moves just made I am again assuming (has proven to be a dangerous thing to do) that AI is still not on one line.
The juggernaut definitely seems to be on. The pair of you is tied down and little has changed since s1901.
No doubt Russia will be moving to BOH and pushing UKR to GAL with Turkish support.
I can easily deal with MUN and retake it. My concern is for the long run.
Shouldn’t we be considering getting the AIG on track?
Italy gets a build, a move of NAP - TYS along with a build in NAP to cover the ION offers some safety.
The combined AI armies along the front should be able to hold out if they work together.
I can retake MUN and help along the line in BOH.
I feel unless the two of you or preferably the three of us work together then all 3 of us are doomed.
The central powers are being squashed. Austria and I may even be able to put pressure on WAR. BEL/HOL may be lost anyway, the sooner EF forces share borders the sooner they may fight.
At first I thought the ADR bounce was agreed upon, the support of GRE for BUL only goes to prove how well RT were able to keep their alliance quiet.
Let me know your thought guys before the pair of you are swept away, or do you see things differently.,
Message from Germany to Italy
Just a qucik seperate note to you. I hope that GRE will be supported to
SER by BUL and RUM or is this just wishfull thinking.
I am hoping no matter what the alliance you will be looking west ASAP.
Let me know your analysis of the game so far i am interested to hear it.
Message from Austria to Germany
Tony,
There's no AI. Andy now stabbed me twice in a row and
I'm lucky to have made the defensive move to Adr.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Russia
Eric,
Good moves on your part, just too bad I'm on the
receiving end of it. Now, what are the chances of
your going for Rum with a fleet?
Philippe
Message from Austria to Turkey
Jason,
It seem it's worst then I thought. Since I didn't went with
the bash Turkey plan, they have turned it around and you
have jump right in.
So, let me ask the obvious question. Once I'm gone, what
do you plan to do?
Philippe
Message from Germany to Austria
Thanks, sorry to hear about it but aat least it is clear.
Message from Germany to Russia
Some interesting news just in. Maybe worthwhile taking a look at lorax on the dedo judge.
As you can see Turkey and Italy have an unholy alliance which is working fine.
The reason I mention that game is to ask a question.
Are IT working together, can we expect GRE - SER supported by RUM/BUL and maybe a convoy to ARM?
I know for sure that IA are not working together following a message from Austria.
This probably means one of hree things, IR have plans for the near future or that the juggernaut is on.
The third option being IT. It is an unusual alliance but I am playing it in another game and its working fine.
Just thought that you should know, I would be surprised to see GAL - RUM supported by UKR & SEV but I must admit the alliances in the east are unknown to me.
Message from Germany to Italy
On the other hand I>A<R is usually the case. It will be interesting to see how IART develop from here. Good luck.
I do understand from Austria that AI are definitely not an item. He says you have stabbed him twice. Good luck.
Message from Austria to Germany
> Thanks, sorry to hear about it but aat least it is clear.
Yeah, I wanted Andy to be my primary ally in the
south, but I never got the chance to really trust him.
Message from Austria to Italy
Andy,
What can I say? You seem to think your only road to solo
is through Austria, fine; but I get to choose where I put up
the strongest defence.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Austria
What can I say? It seem I will get to read those comments
soon enough. It's clear I can't trust Andy. He's playing for
the solo, as he should be, and as Italy, it mean taking out
Austria if he can.
As for Jason, I don't know. Was he turned or was the attack
on Russia just a ruse to hide an RT from Andy? My guts
tell me it's the former, but it might simply be wishfull thinking
as the later would mean certain death for me.
Philippe
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
I will write more later. Obviously you are right about an RT - it's time
for us to stop fooling around. If you are serious this time about
supporting me into SWE I will gladly accept.
An RT is bad for EG; we need to work together now.
> For now I am more concerned with Russia than anyone else.
As am I.
> What is you evaluation of the situation?
Right now? Kill Russia. Vent my spleen and protect my border.
> Look forward to hearing from you.
Your near future for now is not the English centers, but rather French and
Russian. A good sign for us.
Ben
Message from Turkey to Austria
Look, I know about you wanting Italy to support you to Bul, so I don't
know why you're acting all surprised.
As for what I'll do when you're gone? I'll cross that bridge when I come
to it. I'd rather not give you blackboard material for either Russia or
Italy.
jason
Message from Turkey to Russia
Thanks for the support, and it appears that everything went according to
plan. What support will you be needing next?
Message from Turkey to England
Crazy moves in Scandinavia! Are you and Germany going to be able to work
together to keep Russia in check?
jason
Message from Turkey to Turkey
Well, let's see what we've got. Austria is now serisouly on the ropes,
so that's good for me, as long as I can get my share.
Italy is still friendly, and he can't cause too much trouble before I
can build F Smy.
Russia has Nwy, which I don't like, but otherwise that seems to be going
well. Convoy A Con to Sev? Not likely, but always a possibility.
Turkey at 5 after 1902, hopefully. Could be better, could be worse.
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
Thanks for the support in Bul. Austria already sent his requisite
indignant email.
jason
Message from Italy to Austria
Philippe,
> What can I say? You seem to think your only road to solo
> is through Austria, fine; but I get to choose where I put up
> the strongest defence.
What are you talkng about....
You actually have to TELL me you are moving to BUL if you want me to write
the support order for it.
I even sent you a note yesterday afternoon that I didnt get a response to,
asking that question directly.
I didnt stab you, and I was told by the French that you were offering to
support him into Venice, I had to do something to stop it.
Andy
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason,
Can I get 2 supports to SER?
Thanks
Andy
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> Crazy moves in Scandinavia! Are you and Germany
> going to be able to work together to keep Russia in check?
I don't know. Obviously I was expecting Russian support into DEN, but I've been made a monkey. No doubt Germany isn't thrilled about me going to DEN, either.
Going to have to come up with something, I guess. And you *did* warn me about the RT; thanks for the warning. I should have heeded it. . .
Ben
Message from England to England
> Crazy moves in Scandinavia! Are you and Germany
> going to be able to work together to keep Russia in check?
A fishing expedition, probably on Russia's behalf.
Eric took a dangerous gamble taking NWY, particularly with the army. He is not in a good position to follow up against me, and Germany is not in a good position against me, but he is quite vulnerable to an EG. So, if Tony decides to work with me - an arrangement that could be profitable to both - Russia could be pushed back to MOS by '05. If I fail to persuade Tony to work with me then I'm done, and I will be joining your ranks soon enough.
Ben
Message from Austria to Turkey
> Look, I know about you wanting Italy to support you to Bul, so I don't
> know why you're acting all surprised.
In case you aren't pretending, you should know that Italy made
the offer of support against Bul with all sort of other promises,
not the contrary. I limited myself to telling him to support Rum-
Bul, but not to expect me to use it since I couldn't rely on him.
Instead, I did what I could to protect myself from Italy and what
I suspected to be his turkish ally, but could not protect myself
from all my neighbours at the same time; and to think I was
bidding my time to see who I could trust!?!
> As for what I'll do when you're gone? I'll cross that bridge when I come
> to it. I'd rather not give you blackboard material for either Russia or
> Italy.
Your call. If you rather trust Italy & Russia, there's nothing I
can do about it.
So, please let me know if that's the case as soon as possible,
Philippe
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> An RT is bad for EG; we need to work together now.
My thinking is, both Russia and Turkey strike me as alliance-type players,
who are now allied with each other. Bad news for Austria first, and IGE
second. But we can clean out Russia in the North and you will have a
terrific opportunity to cross the stalemate line early, by pushing into
WAR/MOS. No matter your relations with France you should be able to spare
an army or two to head east, I think, though you are better than I at that
kind of analysis.
So what do you think?
Help me into SWE. I will devote myself to the North while you claim HOL and
build another army. I, meanwhile, will be building nothing, but in the
following year(s) I will take back NWY and STP.
> I was a little amazed last move, it looked as though you and
> France weren’t really co-ordinating moves.
In my defense, I was supposed to get support from Russia. Cretin. Not you
cretin, him cretin.
Anyway I am glad finally to have some direction & look forward to your
confirmation that you will support me to SWE.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
Well, the help I can offer is, I can try to deal with Russia in the North.
What you could do to help me is, try to get Germany to go after Russia, too. I am negotiating for his help but it would not hurt for you to point out to him that a strong Austria is good for Germany, etc.
I was disappointed but not surprised to see the results. Oh, well; perhaps if Russia starts to get pinched elsewhere the RTI will begin to come apart.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Yuck. I was not sure whether to believe Russia; I had decided to go with h=
im when he told *you* he'd be helping me into DEN. Why would he want to st=
art lying to so many, so early? But there it is.
Anyway, what do you think we should do next? =20
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
I will do what I can. I was disappointed not to get Russian help - I had hoped your hand was further up his backside. I'd promised him BER, if STP - LVN, etc.; I think it was more promising for him than *this*, but it was his decision.
I hope you will get a nice slice of the Austrian pie.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
To tell you the truth I have offered the same alliance to France as I have to you. Once again only you have replied not once but twice.
We do seem to communicate a lot more. I am just a little weary following the discussions we held in the spring and the results of the spring move. I even expected LON - ENG as discussed, you and France could have even agreed on it. I would only have interpreted it as such so you could both go for BEL.
You never mentioned the EF relationship
As I said I could easily hold DEN and retake MUN. I can even cover HOL take MUN and run the risk of losing DEN. As it stands GR were working together. I always stated I let the board dictate my alliances move by move. For now Russia is not coming out on top.
I haven’t heard from France yet but when I do I will let you know. Even though I can force him out of MUN I can’t force him to change course. Ideally he picks up POR, retreats PIC and BUR and builds a fleet in MAR.
In my dreams maybe, let’s see what he comes up with.
I won’t underestimate the obvious simple moves in the future. They have always been the worst to counter. Many a time I make them they are guarded against by the enemy. Whenever I tried to counteract them, people never used them, how frustrating. I am usually only aware of them during a fall move like now.
We can indeed take Sweden back quite easily. My main concern in this respect is the EF alliance.
Although his move to MAO did surprise me.
My moves were based on EF working together to go after BEL/RUH/HOL. In hindsight a waste of time. I had also ordered mun - bur supported by bel (decided against it as you could convoy to bel) and ber - mun supported by kie (decided against it as you could convoy to hol). I also ordered bel - bur, ber - mun supported by kie and mun - ruh. In hindsight either would have made a big difference. I certainly wasn’t expecting the moves he made as BUR could easily have been cut and MUN easily defended. You live and learn. I over analysed the situation. So what is the FE alliance?
For now I can ensure that I stay on 5 and that you get no build but France would.
Usually when two seem to gang up on you you tend to deny one of them builds.
For now that's aimed at you. The board however dictates otherwise as does Frances games play.
I will seriously consider supporting ska - swe whilst you cut nwy support and I pick up hol.
Any insight into the moves/motivation of France will help me make a decision in your favour.
The trouble is you have little bargaining power with him right now as he holds all the aces.
An option would be to support you into Sweden. Let him stay in MUN as it is difficult to defend. Leave HOL open for next year and I stay on 5 and remove him next spring.
If I am not careful then I could end up between FR once you are gone.
Shame you aren’t in the ENG.
Talk to you soon, look forward to hearing from you.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> To tell you the truth I have offered the same alliance to
> France as I have to you. Once again only you have replied not
> once but twice.
Of course you have. And I have been negotiating with Russia. And with
France.
> We do seem to communicate a lot more. I am just a little
> weary following the discussions we held in the spring and the
> results of the spring move. I even expected LON - ENG as
> discussed, you and France could have even agreed on it.
I think I could have gotten agreement on it. I'd even been negotiating for
it, when Russia spontaneously offered the support into DEN.
> I would only have interpreted it as such so
> you could both go for BEL.
I agree 100%. It would have been diplomatically and tactically sound,
though as it turns out it would have cost me NWY anyway. The way it worked
out, I'm happy, as I think I am well situated for expansion in the far
North. If we have a mutually benefical operation then, when I can
reposition, I would work with you against France, but for tactical reasons
that decision is not one I have to make now.
I think it is win/win for you to help me against Russia, as it means two of
your neighbors will be fighting each other while you can either (a) join in
against Russia (or me, though I think because of your armies Russia would be
easier), or (b) deal with France, or (c) both. If you do not help me
against Russia, then I will not really be fighting him, and I will probably
remove F SKA and just try to work with France against you, as I think that
would be, tactically and diplomatically, the most logical step.
> You never mentioned the EF relationship
By design. I did not want to lie to you, so I did not say too much, or
commit too much. I wanted you to feel like if we *were* to work together,
it would be something we could do - that I wasn't some silent newbie
hell-bent on one plan or another, and also that I wasn't going to lie if it
could be avoided.
> As I said I could easily hold DEN and retake MUN. I can even
> cover HOL take MUN and run the risk of losing DEN. As it
> stands GR were working together. I always stated I let the
> board dictate my alliances move by move. For now Russia is
> not coming out on top.
Why would he? He has nothing to offer you. How long would it be before you
could claim an English center? And if I were to engage him in the North,
isn't that something you could take advantage of, by fighting France and/or
him, without having to bother building an armada?
> I haven’t heard from France yet but when I do I will
> let you know. Even though I can force him out of MUN I
> can’t force him to change course. Ideally he picks up
> POR, retreats PIC and BUR and builds a fleet in MAR.
> In my dreams maybe, let’s see what he comes up with.
I will bet you one American dollar that does /not/ happen. ;-)
> I won’t underestimate the obvious simple moves in the
> future. They have always been the worst to counter. Many a
> time I make them they are guarded against by the enemy.
> Whenever I tried to counteract them, people never used them,
> how frustrating. I am usually only aware of them during a
> fall move like now.
Nothing lost, I don't think.
> We can indeed take Sweden back quite easily. My main concern
> in this respect is the EF alliance.
> Although his move to MAO did surprise me.
Why? It was safe and POR is there for the fall. I'm not saying EF do not
have good relations. But look at the press you've received from me. Do I
look to you like the kind of player who will not take advantage of your
offer of support into SWE, and switch gears?
> My moves were based on EF working together to go after
> BEL/RUH/HOL. In hindsight a waste of time. I had also ordered
> mun - bur supported by bel (decided against it as you could
> convoy to bel) and ber - mun supported by kie (decided
> against it as you could convoy to hol). I also ordered bel -
> bur, ber - mun supported by kie and mun - ruh. In hindsight
> either would have made a big difference. I certainly
> wasn’t expecting the moves he made as BUR could easily
> have been cut and MUN easily defended. You live and learn.
Your comments intrigue me, because my argument in favor of LON - ENG was, I
need to order YOR - NTH - BEL to cut the various supports that dangerous
unit could give. As I said, then I heard from Russia, who looking back on
it did not really need to lie to me. I wonder why he did.
> I over analysed the situation. So what is the FE alliance?
You came out of the gate pretty intimidating. Easy enough of a target for a
couple of wood-pushers like us. ;-)
> For now I can ensure that I stay on 5 and that you get no
> build but France would.
You will do what is in your best interest. Is that it?
> Usually when two seem to gang up on you you tend to deny one
> of them builds.
> For now that's aimed at you. The board however dictates
> otherwise as does Frances games play.
I agree on both counts. You do not want a strong Russia and you can have a
ER war with me getting *no* builds this phase, not threatening you, indeed
in your debt, so you are free to move as you will. Meanwhile if you can
help me out in the North then it is in *my* best interest to work with you
in the south, where there are plenty of dots for us to share.
> I will seriously consider supporting ska - swe whilst you cut
> nwy support and I pick up hol.
Not interested in you considering it - only interested in you *doing it* -
please let me know when you've decided.
> Any insight into the moves/motivation of France will help me
> make a decision in your favour.
I've given what I know.
> The trouble is you have little bargaining power with him
> right now as he holds all the aces.
> An option would be to support you into Sweden. Let him stay
> in MUN as it is difficult to defend. Leave HOL open for next
> year and I stay on 5 and remove him next spring.
That's fine.
> If I am not careful then I could end up between FR once you are gone.
Interesting you say that, as personality-wise I think F and R are likely
allies - something that's been worrying me from the beginning - but you will
draw your own conclusion.
> Shame you aren’t in the ENG.
Actually I think things could go perfectly for us if you execute the support
into SWE, so I can get us going up there, and then when I start to build
again I can work with you in the south.
> Talk to you soon, look forward to hearing from you.
Look no further.
Ben
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I'm going to spare you the whole "I feel so bad I took advantage of you"
speech and let you read it in my press to the observers. I do feel terrible
about it, don't get me wrong, I just doubt you are going to be in a state
of mind to hear about my distress given that you suffered from it, so I'm
going to leave it a fairly bland apology for now.
It's obvious that there are still ways that we can cooperate, and I'm still
willing to do so. But I'll wait until I hear from you before suggesting
anything detailed. But if you want to write me off as unreliable at this
point, I'll understand that.
I'm really rushing to get to work so am going to keep this very short. I'll
be sparse today, but will answer any questions demands as soon as I can.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
I wish you had said something more definitive about your plans. Given that
you gave no guarantees that you would not take Gal, or that Rum would be
used against me, I felt I had to do something to get Jason off my back.
Offering Sev S Arm-Rum is the obvious choice, because it clears out Arm.
I have NO desire to see you torn apart by Turkey or Italy. I'm quite sure
from how press has gone that Andy is pulling Jason's strings, and any
builds he gets from you will end up coming after me. What I would like to
do is what we discussed originally -- me taking Rum, and using the build to
hit Turkey.
I'm open for other possibilities, but that was my thinking in taking Gal --
making sure you wouldn't retreat there, but also having enough pressure on
Rum to retake it if it fell.
I'm short on time today, but will try to write more tonight.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Wow, I cannot believe how successful that was. I'm really busy today, so
I'm keeping this short. I'll talk with you more after I've had a chance to
digest the results.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
You and I think along similar lines. I haven't heard back from Ben yet, so
can't say whether he's in "how can we patch this up" mode, or "now I'm
going to throw everything I can against you" mode. Similar to your comments
about if I were to order support for Ska-Den, I'll point out that support
for Ska-Den would end with me in Bal and supporting EF.
I'm really busy today, and may not have net access again before tomorrow.
Let me think about Swe S Den, and hear what England has to say. At this
point I'm leaning towards supporting StP until I can field a northern
fleet, which also helps with getting me to Nth.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Italy
Andy,
Oh my.
Well, I'm busy today, so won't be around much, but wanted to touch base. I
don't have specific requests yet, but wanted you to know that I'm around.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
I hate having not supported Ben. In the end, my fears about abandoning
Scandinavia were the deciding factor. I'm still very open to supporting
(E)F operations against G, but I am waiting to hear from both of you to see
if that's something I should even bother discussing.
I'm going to be off-line most of the day, but will get back to you when I can.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Russia
Okay,
Well, I've looked at the turn results for the season on floc.net, but I
haven't actually checked my mail. I thought I would write this before I am
biased by seeing what people have to say to me.
First off, I am stunned to see that all the moves went as I predicted they
would. Part of my aggressiveness included assuming that something would be
wrong in my guesses. The bad thing is now I've basically made enemies of E,
A, and probably F. I hate being the first player to make a stab -- in fact
I rarely do it. And to essentially do it to two players (and and E) at once
is just insane. In addition to all the bad blood that creates, I'm now
looking somewhat leader-ish.
Overall, I'm not happy with the last turn. I wish I had been able to force
some concession out of Philippe, but moreso, I really don't like how the
negotiation went in the north. I did truly want to help Ben, because I
truly believe he's the better long-term ally. But assuming that I needed a
build for the south (which turned out not to be the case) then I couldn't
wait a year for it to come from Tony, especially because I'd have only one
fleet in the north (no armies) and that would be the end of things. I
strongly feel I should have tried harder to work out some longer-term
security with Ben, but I didn't see how to do that.
Attacking Ben was an excruciating decision. I did intend all along in the
discussions to follow through with Swe S Nth-Den. But when I typed up my
last report (right before actually entering the orders) I just couldn't
bring myself to do it. Yesterday before leaving work, I felt so horrible
about it that I got online to change the orders again, and couldn't bring
myself to do it. Last night on three separate occasions during a 1/2 hour
period I booted up the computer at home, entered new orders to support
Nth-Den and couldn't do it. I still don't know if it was the "right" thing
to do -- choosing position over the preferred ally so early in the game --
and even if it was, I feel like I did it extremely poorly in terms of press.
Anyway, I no doubt have a bunch of unhappy press to reply to.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
Sorry, I didn't see your message in the plethora of "pinnacle" press in my
inbox until after sending that last one. I think I answered your question
nonetheless.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Well, I was disappointed of course, but I can understand why, with
undertainty in the south, you felt you needed the dot.
> from it, so I'm
> going to leave it a fairly bland apology for now.
I think you were upset because I didn't write you about Denver losing a
heartbreaker on Monday Night.
> It's obvious that there are still ways that we can cooperate,
> and I'm still
> willing to do so. But I'll wait until I hear from you before
> suggesting anything detailed.
Um, how about, give me Norway back? I'm not really confident I could get
into DEN anymore. . .
> But if you want to write me off as unreliable at this
> point, I'll understand that.
Well, what kind of dipper would I be if I wrote you off.
> I'm really rushing to get to work so am going to keep this
> very short. I'll
> be sparse today, but will answer any questions demands as
> soon as I can.
No questions or demands for now, besides the one about Norway.
Ben
Message from France to France
Peanut gallery:
What a singularly fascinating turn. From my perspective, I'm neither worse
off or better off, but I am truly surprised that my move to Munich
succeeded. Did Tony know that he could always take it back, or did he
really not see it coming? Everyone else on the board did.
Very clever move by Eric. Not surprising, and all his talk about
Scandanavia was a clear hint at what was coming, but he did well to
telegraph his fake support to Ben through me. Nice job of anticipating my
willingness to share info with my ally.
Russia is in a very good position, as far as I can tell, despite having
looked a little dicey at the opening. Austria's good is clearly cooked --
given his unwillingness to make concrete plans with anyone, this is not
surprising. I wish the Turk were a little more open with me. He one-liners
are just annoying me to the point where communication with him seems
pointless (though I must still try).
England is in trouble; Germany is also not doing terribly well, but could
recover. This is good for me, especially with Russia no longer having to
worry about the south. I don't like the prospect of RT, so I need to make
sure that Andy is working to derail any long-term juggernaut and ensure a
relatively near-term stab of Turkey.
Time to write the others.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
Wacky turn. While part of me regrest your decision not to support Ben as
well, part of me thinks it was a really good thing for both of us. I was
clearly in for a long fight against Germany, and Ben might have started
growing before I did, and that would spell problems. Now, both Ben and
Tony are handicapped by our collective moves. If we work this carefully,
we may be able to keep them both small and start mopping up around the
edges. With no sign of Andy heading West in the near term, I think this
may all be for the best.
Nice work with Turkey. I had heard that AT were on the ropes; looks now
like Austria is the odd man out. This, by the way, has provoked more than
one cry of "Juggernaut!" from other players. Is RT something you see
continuing for a while, or just an expedient means to splitting up AT?
I need to look at the board a little more and decide what to do: I can
keep working with Ben against Germany, though he's going to be ineffectual
at best; I could also make peace with Tony and strike at the weaker of my
neighbors. Of course, the only way I could safely do that is if I knew you
were ready to put the vice on Germany when the time came.
Erik
Message from Germany to Germany
My big problem is mun - kie cutting support allowing for ska - den supported by nth.
I retract what I said earlier about RT. I hadnt paid much attention to the game. I now believe Russia diplomed his way last spring. I looked at the history file ;-)
I must pay more attention and ensure I dont lose an SC in a spring or fall if it can easily be avoided.
Message from Germany to England
> We can indeed take Sweden back quite easily. My main concern
> in this respect is the EF alliance.
> Although his move to MAO did surprise me.
>Why? It was safe and POR is there for the fall
Then why bother moving to the MAO in the first place, he could have sat in SPA and taken it this fall?
Add to that the Russian lie and you may still come up mind boggled.
If I would have opted for my last but one order then I would now be in BUR and he would have to decide wether to retreat to RUH or MAR .
Else I would have free passage into MAR if he chose to retreat to RUH.
Thats why I find the move to MAO a little strange. When I looked at the supported move to BUR (from MUN supported by PIC) I decided aginst it as he would obviously retreat to RUH (as SPA would have the fleet to cover MAR) and you were considering convoying to PIC which would cut support.
Moving to MAO only to retreat and take POR seems a little odd, a move to IRI (if working with Russia) would seem more logical. I have to cover holland this fall, he has to pic up BEL.
A fleet in BRE and hey presto he is in LVP next year with a convoy or with his fleet from IRI.
SPA - MAO was in my eyes a strange move, but you may be right. Its safe and he can still pick up POR.
I have no reason why Russia would lie to you. He knew I was cutting support from NTH so that he could take DEN. Thats why I insisted on his build in STP else I was to immediately offer you sweden and move on WAR.
Interesting times.
I will make a decision on SWE very shortly. What you say makes sense.
We never discussed the matter further last spring but it was on the table. As the deal with Russia was already layed out I wouldnt have followed up anyway. But at least I didnt have to lie to you, you never came back on the matter. Now is a different story.
Message from Germany to Russia
OK will hear from you then. For now he is stating that he is talking to you and France.
He has once again asked for support to DEN. Pointing out the juggernaut and the bad influence that will have on EFG in the near future. Thats his problem. I am obviously trying to make my problem your problem.
They can take DEN without your help. MUN is lost germany must know this I can retake it easily. If however mun pushes on KIE and SKA moves to DEN supported by NTH then DEN falls. BEL will also fall or maybe even HOL. I am sure an overwhelming EF force is not in your interest. Thats why I dont see Engalnd trying to retake NWY.
Thats where I see your help is possible. State you wish to remain neutral and will selfsupport yourself and await future developments. He did state that you lied to him, he said that he was ment to move on SKA with your support. But there again you knew I was going to NTH so you didnt have to offer the support ;-)
How different the game would be if I had kept to the tripple alliance and opened up to PRU and SIL ;-)
I really nearly did piss myself laughing when you commented on what the heck France was doing in PIE. That made this game worthwhile even if I get ousted next year. I have never laughed so much when I read your comment. It hit a funny bone.
Is the move to the MAO a forbode of a move to NAO and onto NWG I dont know. Why move there only to retreat to pick up POR. Or is he thinking on moving to IRI. No matter what as long as EF are workjing together that spells trouble for me and you. They wont go after Italy if he is stopping a juggernaut. I will be intrested to see hwat happens this fall out east.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Then why bother moving to the MAO in the first place, he
> could have sat in SPA and taken it this fall?
> Add to that the Russian lie and you may still come up mind boggled.
Definitely possible. ;-) Anyway you don't need to sell me an FR; I am
completely on board with going after Russia as we've been discussing this
morning. My time.
> I will make a decision on SWE very shortly. What you say makes sense.
> We never discussed the matter further last spring but it was
> on the table. As the deal with Russia was already layed out I
> wouldnt have followed up anyway. But at least I didnt have to
> lie to you, you never came back on the matter. Now is a
> different story.
Yes. If you have any objections to my proposals & arguments, please let me
know, so I can try to address them.
Ben
Message from Russia to Russia
Doug and Greg,
Apologies -- I sort of brainfarted and failed to realize that even
that minor comment I made about "pinnacle" press was probably
inappropriate, given that some players in "pinnacle" might be reading
my press. I will try to remember not to make any statements about
that game here.
I'd be really curious to know how many observers there were just
before and just after pinnacle got started. My guess is that it
probably has greater draw and star appeal than this game.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
I still have to keep this brief, but I will definitely consider the
request about Nwy. I knew that my moves in the south were going to be
exceedingly risky (despite info from you and a few others, I was
strongly suspecting Arm-Sev, Rum/Bla supporting) and so thought I
needed to force getting a build prior to '03. Since the south went so
much better than expected, the urgency level has dropped considerably.
That's not a commitment to leave Nwy yet, but it is definitely on the table.
>I think you were upset because I didn't write you about Denver losing a
>heartbreaker on Monday Night.
When I was thinking of being more flippant about it, my comment was
that the most distressing part of the move was losing a newly
converted Raiders fan.
>Well, what kind of dipper would I be if I wrote you off.
An angry and vengeful one, but arguably not unjustifiably so.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> I still have to keep this brief, but I will definitely consider the
> request about Nwy. I knew that my moves in the south were going to be
> exceedingly risky (despite info from you and a few others, I was
> strongly suspecting Arm-Sev, Rum/Bla supporting) and so thought I
> needed to force getting a build prior to '03. Since the south went so
> much better than expected, the urgency level has dropped considerably.
If you go NWY - STP, no harm done.
> That's not a commitment to leave Nwy yet, but it is
> definitely on the table.
Think about it. There's nothing I really have to offer you, besides good
will, which may be worth something to you. If I can succeed in holding the
dot for Norway, then I will be in a position to work against Germany. Which
goes to your benefit, as I see it.
> >I think you were upset because I didn't write you about
> Denver losing a
> >heartbreaker on Monday Night.
>
> When I was thinking of being more flippant about it, my comment was
> that the most distressing part of the move was losing a newly
> converted Raiders fan.
*sniff* I was thinking of you *sniff* every time Brady lit up the Bronco's
secondary *sniff* [wipes eyes]
> >Well, what kind of dipper would I be if I wrote you off.
>
> An angry and vengeful one, but arguably not unjustifiably so.
Hm. Well, fair enough. But it is not too late for you to give me reason
*not* to be angry and vengeful, which perhaps I *would* have been, had it
been a fall phase.
Ben
Message from Russia to France
>I was
>clearly in for a long fight against Germany, and Ben might have started
>growing before I did, and that would spell problems.
And that was bad for me as well, because I thought he could get big
enough to start after me while still attacking one of you or Germany.
>Nice work with Turkey. I had heard that AT were on the ropes; looks now
>like Austria is the odd man out. This, by the way, has provoked more than
>one cry of "Juggernaut!" from other players.
I'm sure. And let me guess, Andy, Philippe and Tony are the ones
yelling the loudest!
>Is RT something you see
>continuing for a while, or just an expedient means to splitting up AT?
Look at the board for S02 and take into account the fact that while
Philippe said he would "consider" moving south, he refused to promise
not to enter Gal or use Rum against Sev. Given that negotiating
background, and that I obviously wanted to see Arm removed, ordering
support for Arm-Rum was a no-brainer. The shift of the armies was
more of the "why not bet the farm that he's really going to take it"
variety. I figured that if he did go to Rum, and Philippe didn't
attack me, then I needed to guard against a retreat to Gal. If he did
go to Gal, then I was giving up Sev, but against AT that was going to
be lost come Fall anyway.
I should add that I actually mis-explained myself in my last message
to you. While I did want to get a foothold in Scandinavia, it was
just as much the the belief that I was likely to go down one in the
south (because of the risky moves) that made me feel like a build in
'02 was more important than a promise of one in '03 that I might not
be able to take advantage of.
So in short, that was all desperation, and I need to hear from
everyone before I have any clarity about what comes next.
>Of course, the only way I could safely do that is if I knew you
>were ready to put the vice on Germany when the time came.
FR is very important to me. While emotionally attacking Ben was
difficult, from a dispassionate in-game perspective I was more
worried about what it would do to FR than ER. Germany is going to
spend a lot of time trying to balance you, me and England against
each other. One thing I see is that with my jump in position, I'd
like to figure out a way to get you a jump in position as well, so we
both feel like it's profitable to keep working together. Whether that
comes from you attacking England, or you keeping England onside while
the two of you take a bite out of Germany is negotiable to me.
This is waaay too long given that I'm so busy, so I'll stop here.
Let's keep the dialog going.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to England
> Well, the help I can offer is, I can try to deal with Russia in the North.
>
> What you could do to help me is, try to get Germany to go after Russia, too. I am negotiating for his help but it would not hurt
for you to point out to him that a strong Austria is good for Germany, etc.
>
> I was disappointed but not surprised to see the results. Oh, well; perhaps if Russia starts to get pinched elsewhere the RTI will
begin to come apart.
I'm not sure you will like the solution I'm contemplating. Beside Andy
who's definitely stabbing me time after time, I feel that Eric is playing
me while Andy is playing Jason. The obvious way for me to go would
be to ally myself with Eric to resist Andy & Jason, but I have a feeling
that IR is hard at work here.
Whatever understanding I had with Jason at the start of the game is
now gone and I don't think I can get it back. If I had done something
wrong, I could always explain myself; but if Jason prefer to believe
whatever Andy is feeding him, there's nothing for me to do beside
telling him the truth he won't believe.
To get out of this mess, I'm thinking of favorizing a real RT. If I can
get Eric & Jason to really think in term of an RT alliance, it would put
Andy in a difficult position on the board as well as off the board. I
doubt that whatever understanding he might have with Eric could
survive a good shot at an RT and I would expect that it would get
harder for him to feed Jason lies after lies. From there, I could hope
to work my way out of whatever little hole I'm left with or at least
make Andy pay for his choices.
Now, I will wait to see how Jason follow up on my last press before
starting to work on implementing this desperate strategy; but for this
plan to work, I need to start this fall or I will be too late to really
influence who get what.
In the mean time, don't hesitate to share any insights you might have,
but please keep this to yourself. Once I know what I want to do, I
will tell you about it and you will have enough time to setup whatever
you feel is necessary.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Italy
> You actually have to TELL me you are moving to BUL if you want me to write
> the support order for it.
When you offered the support, I told you to support Rum-Bul
just in case and we both know I wanted to use this as proof of
intent.
> I even sent you a note yesterday afternoon that I didnt get a response to,
> asking that question directly.
The only press you sent me yesterday arrived pass 10 pm eastern
time zone, 2 hours before the results came in, and I didn't get to
read that press until this morning. More then that, it had nothing to
do with any support of Bul.
> I didnt stab you, and I was told by the French that you were offering to
> support him into Venice, I had to do something to stop it.
Of course, you send me a rumour two hours before the dl and it
excuse your moves. I would be tempted to use this one in my
other games, but it's a bit weak and I doubt I would be taken
seriously.
Listen Andy, I don't believe you and I'm not about to unless you
stop behaving as an italian gunning for Austria. The only mistake
I made last turn was to protect Tri with Vie instead of using it to
cover Gal.
Take care,
Philippe
Message from France to England
Ben:
That was an ... interesting turn, let's say. I feel like a total idiot for
passing along Russia's message of support; he clearly know what he was
doing when he so-subtly indicated his assistance to you.
At least I ended up taking Munich. I can't *hold* it, but Russia may not
be as firmly in Germany's camp as it would seem. We should still try to
talk to him.
Of course, the now-apparent RT alliance is a cause for concern regardless
of what's gone down between us. It's nice to see that Italy will be busy
in the east for a while, but we could be facing a mighty powerful Bear if
Germany and Italy and Austria fold.
What do you think we should do? I need to look at the map; I'll also write
Russia and try to sort out what his thinking was.
Erik
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
In the annals of recorded Dip I think we have a novelty here. Austria's
plan to defend himself - I don't know, maybe he's already told you - is to
*solidify an RT*.
Truly he will be on his back, legs kicking in the air, in a few short
seasons. If the RT holds - and there is no reason to think it will not -
would you rather have an English ally, battling Russia? Or a French ally,
with Russia surrounding you?
As I said before - if you think I'm wrong, let me know where.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> That was an ... interesting turn, let's say. I feel like a total idiot for
> passing along Russia's message of support; he clearly know what he was
> doing when he so-subtly indicated his assistance to you.
We need to remember - he's a tricky one.
> At least I ended up taking Munich. I can't *hold* it, but Russia may not
> be as firmly in Germany's camp as it would seem. We should still try to
> talk to him.
Absolutely. Obviously our relationship has changed; let me know what he
tells *you.*
> Of course, the now-apparent RT alliance is a cause for concern regardless
> of what's gone down between us. It's nice to see that Italy will be busy
> in the east for a while, but we could be facing a mighty powerful Bear if
> Germany and Italy and Austria fold.
>
> What do you think we should do? I need to look at the map; I'll also write
> Russia and try to sort out what his thinking was.
My top priority is retrieving a dot - whether it's from Norway, or
wherever. Why don't you see if Russia will consider NWY - STP & leaving
NWY English.
I have to go - family calling.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
clarification:
> > At least I ended up taking Munich. I can't *hold* it, but Russia may not
> > be as firmly in Germany's camp as it would seem. We should still try to
> > talk to him.
> Absolutely. Obviously our relationship has changed; let me know what he
> tells *you.*
"our relationsip" meaning Russia's and mine. Not yours and mine.
Ben
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> I'm not sure you will like the solution I'm contemplating. Beside Andy
> who's definitely stabbing me time after time, I feel that Eric is playing
> me while Andy is playing Jason. The obvious way for me to go would
> be to ally myself with Eric to resist Andy & Jason, but I have a feeling
> that IR is hard at work here.
You are probably right. Most 3-way alliances have a dominant pair.
> Whatever understanding I had with Jason at the start of the game is
> now gone and I don't think I can get it back. If I had done something
> wrong, I could always explain myself; but if Jason prefer to believe
> whatever Andy is feeding him, there's nothing for me to do beside
> telling him the truth he won't believe.
What is the truth? I still don't know what happened. I'll help if I can.
> To get out of this mess, I'm thinking of favorizing a real RT. If I can
> get Eric & Jason to really think in term of an RT alliance, it would put
> Andy in a difficult position on the board as well as off the board. I
> doubt that whatever understanding he might have with Eric could
> survive a good shot at an RT and I would expect that it would get
> harder for him to feed Jason lies after lies. From there, I could hope
> to work my way out of whatever little hole I'm left with or at least
> make Andy pay for his choices.
Well, this is an interesting strategy for you. I wish you the best of luck
with it, but I have two things for you to consider:
1. An RT has *one* target in common. That's Austria. You. So by the time
Andy would have to worry about them, you'd be gone.
2. Andy has been negotiating heavily with each of R and T, as you know. I
do not think there is anything you or I could do to persuade Andy that RT
are closer to each other than IR or IT. In other words, even if there *is*
an RT, I do not think Andy will mind, as he will think he is in the
driver's seat. And who knows - he may be.
> Now, I will wait to see how Jason follow up on my last press before
> starting to work on implementing this desperate strategy; but for this
> plan to work, I need to start this fall or I will be too late to really
> influence who get what.
>
> In the mean time, don't hesitate to share any insights you might have,
> but please keep this to yourself. Once I know what I want to do, I
> will tell you about it and you will have enough time to setup whatever
> you feel is necessary.
Thank you. For now, you have such insight as I can give. I wish I was
better, and had more to tell you.
Ben
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
I didn't really expect to take Munich, to be honest. The best I was
hoping
for was to tie you up defensively and chip away elsewhere. The Russian
certainly threw a wrench in those plans.
All in all, one of the more interesting sets of results I've seen so far.
As you said, Spring is always the season of paranoia and conspiracy. I
certainly didn't expect to see RT come up, not after the first year, but
there they are.
Given Russia's moves, it's pretty clear to me that England and I would
have a long and protracted fight against you, the same way that you and
England would have a tough time taking me on right now. What's the weak
link here? England. With Norway down and his forces bottled up, I am
certainly amenable to changing my plan and, as you suggested, heading for
Bel and Eng -- I do always have Por as a fallback. Frankly, with RT
rising
and Austria headed for an early exit, I'm not sure I can afford to see
you
get taken out -- RT will be too strong by the time England and I finished
with you.
Let me look at the board a little more -- I just wanted to write back
sooner rather than later and let you know that I'm quite open to working
with you as long as you're willing to extend me the same consideration.
Erik
Message from Italy to Austria
Philippe,
> Message from pbergeron@gmx.net as Austria to Italy in 'c2':
>
> > You actually have to TELL me you are moving to BUL if you want me to write
> > the support order for it.
>
> When you offered the support, I told you to support Rum-Bul
> just in case and we both know I wanted to use this as proof of
> intent.
>
No. First you told me to hold off til you confirmed, then you said to go
ahead and order it, adn if you decide to use it, it will be there.
And that felt wayyyyyyyy too much like you were setting me up....so I at
least made the Turk feel like I wasnt attacking him.
> > I even sent you a note yesterday afternoon that I didnt get a response to,
> > asking that question directly.
>
> The only press you sent me yesterday arrived pass 10 pm eastern
> time zone, 2 hours before the results came in, and I didn't get to
> read that press until this morning. More then that, it had nothing to
> do with any support of Bul.
I sent you press about 12 hours before that.
> Listen Andy, I don't believe you and I'm not about to unless you
> stop behaving as an italian gunning for Austria. The only mistake
> I made last turn was to protect Tri with Vie instead of using it to
> cover Gal.
That is your perogative.
Message from Italy to Russia
> Andy,
>
> Oh my.
>
> Well, I'm busy today, so won't be around much, but wanted to touch base. I
> don't have specific requests yet, but wanted you to know that I'm around.
Ive been on the road for 3 days..
What is the plan.
I can think of several
Message from Italy to Germany
>
> Just a qucik seperate note to you. I hope that GRE will be supported to
> SER by BUL and RUM or is this just wishfull thinking.
> I am hoping no matter what the alliance you will be looking west ASAP.
> Let me know your analysis of the game so far i am interested to hear it.
>
I have no idea it hasnt even been talked about
I think there is an EF...
I think there is an RT...
I know the Austrian would suicide his position in a nanosecond to deny me
any gains.
Message from Observer to Observer
I started to type up a new Power Ranking list before the builds were
processed, but didn't finish. Now, not only the builds have processed,
but so has another turn. I'm sure that everyone is disappointed that
they didn't get to see all of my words of wisdom, if any.
England doesn't want to lose Norway to Russia. Russia took it with his
army ~and~ failed to supply the agreed upon support to allow England
to take Denmark. One of the goals they both said they were working
towards was a demilitarized Scandinavia. Now it's about as militarized
as it can get. They're discussing what to do, but there's one option
they probably ought to explore that I don't think either has brought up.
Suppose ER make the following moves:
a nwy -> ska -> den
f ska c a nwy -> den
f swe s a nwy -> den
That leaves f Nth free to contest Holland.
Making these moves, Russia takes Denmark and England retains Norway.
(I'm assuming that Kiel doesn't support Denmark, or it's cut.) Since
Russia would be supporting his own move, England can have a little
more confidence that Russia will carry through. Russia would regain
any lost confidence that England had in him (more or less). England
would gain an ally that was actively fighting Germany. They'd also be
taking a big step towards demilitarizing Scandinavia.
Of course there is a downside. For England, he'd be giving a center to
Russia that was supposed to be his. And he might not even need
Russia's help. Mere neutrality might be enough to allow England to
take the center. For Russia, Germany might retreat to the Baltic. From
there, it might move to threaten St Petersburg. Of course, it would
probably just be disbanded in the build phase.
Greg
Message from Germany to France
Good to hear Erik. I too was amazed about MUN. Not that its a problem. Just the fact that you tried it.
Anyway, EF didnt really coordinate their moves appraently. I was guarding against BEl/RUH/HOL scenario.
England is inded in trouble and is the weakest link. No harm doen as I can retake MUN. I am willing to give up BEL but you have to hit it with two units
Although I would suggest the move to IRI. POR you have as a backup when needed. You can use MUN to cut RUH support for BEL and take BEL using PIC & BUR. Suc6 guranteed and we are back on track.
Next year you are looking at LVP and POR. RT are looking strong and I know for a fact that AI are having their personal difficulties.
Look forward to hearing from you
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben, yes Austria did indicate this. Not in so many words but he did indicate clearly taht he an Italy are not friends. Italy later confirmed this by stating that Austria would give his sc's up in a nanosecond if Italy attacked Austria. The two of them definitely dont see eye to eye.
We both know EG is the option to follow after seeing the RT development. The reason I therefor offer to support you to Sweden instead of having you retake Norway is because I can support Denmark from KIE. If I move DEN - SWE to cut support and you dont go for Norway but Denamark instead then Denamrk is lost.
So lets go for the Swedish variant. I will support you in, be sure to cut Norwegian support. I can be sure Russia wont just promise us both support and decide to support himself in place.
The RT alliance was unknown at the time I put pressure on Russia to build in STP and take Norway in the spring.
If I was Russia I wouldnt support either of us and just let thing take their course. He will no doubt build in STP or WAR. With you and I being weak he has no reason not to take us both on soon.
Any gains he has made or will make up north means the less he has to gain between STP and TUN. Branching into England and Denmark/Berlin will no doubt be at the top of his agenda. He certainly sounded a lot less certain and safe when I put the pressure on for his build. Now that RT has worked out he is fully in the driving seat.
DEN support SKA to Sweden is on. Still ask Russia for support to Denamrk and I will ask him to support me in Denmark. We can then see which way he went.
Message from Italy to England
>
> Andy -
> I will do what I can. I was disappointed not to get Russian help - I
had hoped your hand was further up his backside. I'd promised him BER,
if STP - LVN, etc.; I think it was more promising for him than *this*,
but it was his decision.
>
You should try to give him Denmark his leaving Norway
ie...convoy him in and let him support himself in.
That frees you up to take Holland.
Also the German gets to make a choice, of supporting Denmark or taking
back Munich.
> I hope you will get a nice slice of the Austrian pie.
Im trying.
Andy
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Hi Ben, yes Austria did indicate this. Not in so many words but he did
> indicate clearly taht he an Italy are not friends. Italy later confirmed this by
> stating that Austria would give his sc's up in a nanosecond if Italy attacked
> Austria. The two of them definitely dont see eye to eye.
>
> We both know EG is the option to follow after seeing the RT development.
>The reason I therefor offer to support you to Sweden instead of having
> you retake Norway is because I can support Denmark from KIE. If I move
> DEN - SWE to cut support and you dont go for Norway but Denamark
> instead then Denamrk is lost.
Sweden is fine - I can get NWY after.
> So lets go for the Swedish variant. I will support you in, be sure to cut
> Norwegian support. I can be sure Russia wont just promise us both
> support and decide to support himself in place.
Got it.
> The RT alliance was unknown at the time I put pressure on Russia to
> build in STP and take Norway in the spring.
I can understand that.
> If I was Russia I wouldnt support either of us and just let thing take their
> course. He will no doubt build in STP or WAR. With you and I being weak
> he has no reason not to take us both on soon.
If we take SWE then he will not be building.
[snip]
>
> DEN support SKA to Sweden is on. Still ask Russia for support to
> Denamrk and I will ask him to support me in Denmark. We can then see
> which way he went.
Ok.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> What is the truth? I still don't know what happened. I'll help if I can.
Nothing special. Since last winter, Jason went paranoïd
about Bul while I didn't make any plan to get it. Since
this seem weak, there's probably other lies, but Jason
didn't bother telling me about them since he doesn't trust
me anymore.
> Well, this is an interesting strategy for you. I wish you the best of luck
> with it, but I have two things for you to consider:
> 1. An RT has *one* target in common. That's Austria. You. So by the time
> Andy would have to worry about them, you'd be gone.
> 2. Andy has been negotiating heavily with each of R and T, as you know. I
> do not think there is anything you or I could do to persuade Andy that RT
> are closer to each other than IR or IT. In other words, even if there *is*
> an RT, I do not think Andy will mind, as he will think he is in the
> driver's seat. And who knows - he may be.
I realise this; but if I can make sure Andy doesn't get anything
and lose Greece, I don't care if he "think" he's in the driver's
seat. He will have to react or perish.
> Thank you. For now, you have such insight as I can give. I wish I was
> better, and had more to tell you.
I haven't heard back from Jason. I will wait until 12pm eastern
time then go with it. Please let me know if you hear anything in
the mean time.
Philippe
Message from Austria to Italy
> No. First you told me to hold off til you confirmed, then you said to go
> ahead and order it, adn if you decide to use it, it will be there.
>
> And that felt wayyyyyyyy too much like you were setting me up....so I at
> least made the Turk feel like I wasnt attacking him.
Wrong! Here's our recent discussion. I haven't omitted anything
beside the introductions. When the answer include the question in
it's reply, I didn't bother putting the question with a timestamp.
Answered by Philippe 31/10/03 2:15 pm eastern time
> > While my army is in GRE....do you want BUL?
>
> Thanks. While I can't fully trust you until I have
> seen your next set of actions, your support for
> Rum-Bul would be appreciated, even though the
> probability of my actually using it is low.
Answered by Andy 04/11/03 10:30 am eastern time
> > Any news? I still haven't heard from
> > France and it's making me nervous.
>
> nothing solid....not that I can see.
Andy 05/11/03 10:18 PM eastern time
> FRance tells me that you are offering to support him to Venice.
>
> Im not sure what to make of that....
----------------------------------------------
> I sent you press about 12 hours before that.
As you can see, your rumour about France is the only press
I received the day of the dl.
Please stop lying to me and start thinking about moving against
others.
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> I haven't heard back from Jason. I will wait until 12pm eastern
> time then go with it. Please let me know if you hear anything in
> the mean time.
I will tell you if I hear anything. Good luck, my friend.
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> You should try to give him Denmark his leaving Norway
>
> ie...convoy him in and let him support himself in.
> That frees you up to take Holland.
Hm - apologies, etc., are underway; I will think about this. If I offer
this & am betrayed again I just keep losing dots & then I get to join the
observers, which may be an advantage in itself. ;-)
Ben
Message from Italy to England
Ben,
> > You should try to give him Denmark his leaving Norway
> >
> > ie...convoy him in and let him support himself in.
> > That frees you up to take Holland.
> Hm - apologies, etc., are underway; I will think about this. If I offer
> this & am betrayed again I just keep losing dots & then I get to join the
> observers, which may be an advantage in itself. ;-)
>
If you convoy him, but he has to support himself, he doesnt have a unit to
take Norway with.
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
> If you convoy him, but he has to support himself, he doesnt
> have a unit to take Norway with.
I understand the tactics. But the build in STP followed by the capture of
NWY - what would *you* expect, as England?
He had promised SWE s NTH - DEN, in conjunction with STP - LVN. This would
have netted him BER in two or so seasons. But he seized NWY instead. I'm
not saying I wouldn't convoy NWY - DEN, but I will say, I'm reluctant to ask
him to do anything right now. Maybe I'll cool off some more by this
afternoon & things will look different.
Ben
Message from Austria to Russia
Hi Eric,
I have had it with Andy and I decided to do something special.
While there's at least an IT in the short term, if not an IRT, the
chances of an IR being worked out in the long term are good
enough for me to worry about it.
So, instead of working in term of an AR to oppose the IT, I
decided to favor an RT for the moment. The goal would be to
sever Andy's relation in the east, then dig myself out to try to
achieve something. To do so, I would open one of my sc to
you so you don't have to attack Jason in Rum to make gains.
Hopefully, you would then use this gain in the north instead
of trying to quickly eliminate me.
All I ask from you is that this be kept secret from Andy as long
as possible and that he doesn't get to make gains in the east.
Let me know what you think of this,
Philippe
Message from Austria to Turkey
Hi Jason,
Since it's not possible to convince you that you're being
mislead and that I'm telling you the truth, I have decided
to try something drastic.
I will favor an RT so you get the opportunity to go after
Italy, like you wanted before all the lies pointed you in my
direction, and so you don't get squeeze between IR
The plan is simple. I will vacate Ser and use Bud to
support you in Rum, while you also support Rum from
Bla and support Bul-Ser from Rum, covering Bul with
Con.
All I ask is that you use those two gains to build fleets to
go after Italy and that you remain in Rum & Bla so it's
possible to go after Russia later on. Also, please keep
this secret from Andy. Even if you don't trust me, the
only thing I'm asking you to do this turn is attack me, so
he doesn't need to know.
Let me know what you think of this,
Philippe
Message from Austria to England
> I will tell you if I hear anything. Good luck, my friend.
No news from Jason, so I'm sending my offers to Eric & Jason.
Let's see how they react,
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> No news from Jason, so I'm sending my offers to Eric & Jason.
Close your eyes and pray.
I am really curious to know how they respond.
Ben
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
I asked Eric to pull back from NWY. I'd appreciate you encouraging him, if
possible.
I imagine you will be feeling the diplomatic squeeze, between Eric and Andy,
come build phase.
Good luck!
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
When you get a chance let's figure out a plan. I would not be surprised to
see Tony tap MUN but not try to capture it. Let me get the discussion
started with, BUR - RUH, PIC - BEL, and MUN s BUR - RUH, with MAO - POR.
This way if KIE goes to HOL or supports DEN you hold MUN and take POR,
building twice. If MUN is dislodged, then you capture RUH. If HOL is
captured from BEL, you take BEL.
Right now I am in negotiations with Russia. I'm not really sure about how
to play the North but I do not want to have to remove a unit. Any
suggestions would be welcome.
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
I've done some soul searching and this is what I've come up with. I have
not shut the door on negotiations with Russia - hell, I'd never shut that
door with anyone - but if he has a proposal I'd like to hear it from him.
No offense to you - I respect you & hope to get better as a result of
reading the observers talk about how you & everyone else outplayed me - but
after I've been snakebit by Russia two phases in a row, I kind of want to
hear what he's got to say.
Ben
Message from England to England
Is it too much to hope for NWY *and* SWE this fall?
Ben
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
Is there a particular reason that you are killing the English??
Bones Heal
Chicks Dig Scars
Pain is Temporary
Glory is Forever
- Rugby Proverb
Message from Russia to Italy
Hi Andy,
I'm sick today, and not doing much in the way of computer stuff.
The move on Ben was not something I wanted to do. I was not at all
confident that the southern moves would work out as they did. I was
basically expecting that I'd lose Sev, have Philippe in Gal, and would be
desperate for an extra army. Granted, I could have moved StP-Lvn-War to get
the same effect, but that would mean taking a junior position in both the
south and the north. With the apparent strong EF relationship (yes, I know,
I helped to encourage that) trying to survive in the north with F Swe
unsupported by other units with no real chance of getting any centers in
the south if things went badly looked like a way to make a quick exit from
the game.
Are you just curious or is there some more specific concern you have?
As far as Philippe and Jason, what are you thinking for Fall? There's lots
of dots, but we need to make sure we don't let Jason get so many that he
can establish a solid position in the corner. What's your take on the next
steps? It looks unlikely that I can take any dots off of Philippe, so the
question becomes whether or not you want are looking to make a play on Ser
with Jason.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
>To do so, I would open one of my sc to
>you so you don't have to attack Jason in Rum to make gains.
The only thing is that I don't understand how you can ensure that Andy
doesn't get a build, unless you know what Jason is trying for. Bud is the
only unit that can support Ser, and if Rum supports any action into Ser,
the only thing that could stop it is me at least tapping Rum (Bud has to
provide the support). And if Rum taps Bud or is the mover to Ser, then even
tapping Rum won't stop Ser from falling. With your home SC's covered,
leaving Rum free isn't a problem for them. I guess my point is that I
cannot ensure that Andy won't make gains, especially if it's clear to Jason
that Rum isn't at risk.
>Hopefully, you would then use this gain in the north instead
>of trying to quickly eliminate me.
Eliminating someone who's helping you is bad for business (I'm having a
Tzarface flashback with that statement!). I would not do that to you. I
trust that you can see that I would have a significant self-interest in
partnering with a smaller-than usual Austria.
>All I ask from you is that this be kept secret from Andy as long
>as possible and that he doesn't get to make gains in the east.
That's not a problem. I can see that trying to make an RT look clear will
galvanize the board on your side more than a more "unlikely" IT. (Though IT
could probably get Erik's attention quickly!)
So explain to me in more detail what you want to do.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Hey Jason,
Well, busy yesterday, sick today.
I'm trying to figure out what we should be doing. I did not expect to end
up in Gal, and am actually able to support myself to hold there. It seems
unlikely that Gal-Bud would be successful (he'll probably order either Vie
S Bud, or Vie S Bud-Gal), so I'm kind of at a loss. I could try to move for
position (Gal-Bud, Ukr-Gal (Rum supports)) but that leaves me kind of
strung out, and probably antagonizes Tony, so I'd have to think about that.
What do you think?
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Busy yesterday, sick today, but I do want to write something.
Any further thoughts on how to manage EG? Clearly I can see him stay even,
grow, or go down one. Are any of these preferable to the others?
If Tony holds Den, then at the end of the season he'll be even or plus one,
as I see it. He'll probably attack Mun with enough to dislodge you, hoping
Ben attacks me out of spite instead of Den. If that happens, then worst
case is that he trades Bel for Hol, holds Mun and ends up even. Basically
I'm asking: who do we want to see hurt the most?
Another question becomes: how clear do we want FR cooperation to be? If you
help Ben this year (e.g., support him to Bel) and I don't help him against
Tony, then we'll have a clear EF vs. GR. Then I could hit Tony (in Den/Ber)
while you take centers off of Ben (Bel, and a move on the Island) in '03.
That would force EG vs. FR, but they'd be so out of position that they
might not be able to do much about it.
I want to reiterate that I've been sick, so haven't really looked over the
board that carefully to consider the repercussions of that last suggestion.
But while I'm still out of it enough not to be worried about them, I'd be
interested to hear your thoughts. It would give us both a lot of momentum
that could let us swing to the south pretty quickly.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Ben,
I'm sick today, so this will be short.
A secondary concern about Scandinavia, that was part of the thought process
in taking Nwy was that with only one unit in the north and no prospects for
builds until late 03, I'd never be able to hold the position. A Nwy from my
point of view is a reasonable insurance policy for Swe, which was part of
the reason it made sense as a move despite my wanting to work with you. I
recognize that this is stated from the Russian point of view, so I don't
know if you'll see the logic of this. But F Swe alone with lots of English
units to the north and an angry German fleet to the south looked like a bad
situation.
If you got back a dot that I could not threaten -- Den being the obvious
choice -- I would still have the security I was looking for in Scandinavia,
while you would still have all of the advantages of the forward position
against Germany, without any Russian units that can threaten you.
Is that as good as getting back Nwy?
Let me know what you think.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Sorry, I was sick today so didn't get on the computer until late.
Your point is absolutely valid. Looking at the map, the only reason I would
need to support Nwy is if I think Ben is going to attack me. His response
to an offer of Ska-Den should make it clear which way he is going to want
to move.
I'm going to keep this short, but wanted to let you know that your message
makes sense and I'm writing a brief note to England to suggest the Ska-Den
move.
I'll let you know when I hear more from him.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> The only thing is that I don't understand how you can ensure that Andy
> doesn't get a build, unless you know what Jason is trying for. Bud is the
> only unit that can support Ser, and if Rum supports any action into Ser,
> the only thing that could stop it is me at least tapping Rum (Bud has to
> provide the support). And if Rum taps Bud or is the mover to Ser, then even
> tapping Rum won't stop Ser from falling. With your home SC's covered,
> leaving Rum free isn't a problem for them. I guess my point is that I
> cannot ensure that Andy won't make gains, especially if it's clear to Jason
> that Rum isn't at risk.
All I can hope is that my offer is good enough for Jason;
but it's true that you can't make any promises for Serbia.
I will be happy with your making sure of what you can
on your side; but please refrain from attacking Jason as
I would prefer to see him fully trust you instead of keeping
things up with Andy.
> Eliminating someone who's helping you is bad for business (I'm having a
> Tzarface flashback with that statement!). I would not do that to you. I
> trust that you can see that I would have a significant self-interest in
> partnering with a smaller-than usual Austria.
I really hope so.
> That's not a problem. I can see that trying to make an RT look clear will
> galvanize the board on your side more than a more "unlikely" IT. (Though IT
> could probably get Erik's attention quickly!)
Erik doesn't look like he can handle an IT at the moment.
> So explain to me in more detail what you want to do.
Simple, I send Vie-Boh and you simply walk in. Once
there, I trust that you won't support Andy east and would
rather make gains yourself then do so.
Regards,
Philippe
Message from Observer to Observer
>Message from benjamin.harris@m... as England to England in 'c2':
>
>Is it too much to hope for NWY *and* SWE this fall?
>
>Ben
Does anyone think Ben should get real? Isn't it more likely to see England
break a unit while facing a French fleet in Iri? Ben doesn't even address
the SPA/SC-MAO-IRI issue with Eric. At the same time he is trying to make
deals with both Tony and Eric that would benefit him more than the
respective other parties. Not a pretty sight.
Oscar
Message from Germany to Russia
Ok Eric, look forward to hearing from you.
Message from Italy to Russia
Hey Eric,
>
> I'm sick today, and not doing much in the way of computer stuff.
I hope you feel better.
> The move on Ben was not something I wanted to do. I was not at all
> confident that the southern moves would work out as they did. I was
> basically expecting that I'd lose Sev, have Philippe in Gal, and would be
> desperate for an extra army. Granted, I could have moved StP-Lvn-War to get
> the same effect, but that would mean taking a junior position in both the
> south and the north. With the apparent strong EF relationship (yes, I know,
> I helped to encourage that) trying to survive in the north with F Swe
> unsupported by other units with no real chance of getting any centers in
> the south if things went badly looked like a way to make a quick exit from
> the game.
Understood. Well...you may want to make friends with him again, and he has
pretty much told me that he needs to hear it from you.
I have been your strongest supporter in the west, and now they Ben is
questioning my judgement.
> Are you just curious or is there some more specific concern you have?
Well...I want th EF to stay together, and that move put a big hurdle in
front of it.
I would suggest asking him to convoy you to Denmark and supporting it in.
And giving him the option of supporting it or going for Holland.
It gives him his dot back if it works, and you get a dot to replace it
with.
> As far as Philippe and Jason, what are you thinking for Fall?
I asked Jason to give me 2 supports to Serbia. But I havent heard from
him.
> of dots, but we need to make sure we don't let Jason get so many that he
> can establish a solid position in the corner. What's your take on the next
> steps?
Well...I would like to get Serbia, so that I can build an army and a
fleet. I would even cede Serbia to Jason afterwards, I just need the build
now. It would give me the units I need to pin Phillipe in.
It looks unlikely that I can take any dots off of Philippe, so the
> question becomes whether or not you want are looking to make a play on Ser
> with Jason.
Oh....I disagree, maybe not this season, but I think we can get you either
Vienna or Budapest next year.
If we can get Jason to support me to SER this fall, I will have the
leverage to force Philippe in the north, and position to move on Jason
either next year, or the year after.
Andy
Message from Observer to Observer
Yes. It's particularly interesting Andy notified him of the A Nwy-Ska-Den
option, but so far Ben hasn't suggested it to Eric yet. He probably still
regards both Den and Nwy as English by right, and if he does, he really needs a
reality check. I also haven't seen him get more into detail on the E/G alliance
with Tony apart from supporting him to Swe... And even if Russia and Germany
follow through with Ben's plans, that is irrelevant for France's decision
whether to go to IRI or not as in his eyes England's already doomed..
>
> >Message from benjamin.harris@m... as England to England in 'c2':
> >
> >Is it too much to hope for NWY *and* SWE this fall?
> >
> >Ben
>
> Does anyone think Ben should get real? Isn't it more likely to see England
>
> break a unit while facing a French fleet in Iri? Ben doesn't even address
> the SPA/SC-MAO-IRI issue with Eric. At the same time he is trying to make
> deals with both Tony and Eric that would benefit him more than the
> respective other parties. Not a pretty sight.
>
> Oscar
Message from Turkey to Russia
Well, Andy is pushing me to support him into Ser with Bul and Rum, while
Philippe is telling me he'll give me Ser to prevent Andy from getting it.
I don't know how you feel about Italy holding Ser, but with his fleets,
if he builds a third (to my one), that'd be dicey.
You can always attack Rum with Gal or Ukr, and cut my support of Gre -
Ser. That would prevent Andy from getting a build.
Ben also mentioned that he'd prefer to keep Nwy. You're probably better
off going against Germany than England, anyway.
jason
Message from Turkey to Italy
I need to check with Russia to see what his plans are. I'm also a little
concerned about you getting that third fleet, without me having any.
Could you alay my fears somewhat?
jason
Message from Turkey to Austria
I promise to build a fleet this turn, no problem, and I'm not leaving
Bla as far as I can see.
I'll see about Ser. There's a lot of demand on it these days, and I'm
sure you understand.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
I'll mention it to Eric.
We're trying to divvy up Ser right now. I don't want Italy to build
another fleet, but I'd also rather keep working with him. I doubt those
two things will both happen. :-)
jason
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> I'm sick today, so this will be short.
>
> A secondary concern about Scandinavia, that was part of the thought
process
> in taking Nwy was that with only one unit in the north and no prospects
for
> builds until late 03, I'd never be able to hold the position. A Nwy from
my
> point of view is a reasonable insurance policy for Swe, which was part of
> the reason it made sense as a move despite my wanting to work with you. I
> recognize that this is stated from the Russian point of view, so I don't
> know if you'll see the logic of this. But F Swe alone with lots of English
> units to the north and an angry German fleet to the south looked like a
bad
> situation.
>
> If you got back a dot that I could not threaten -- Den being the obvious
> choice -- I would still have the security I was looking for in
Scandinavia,
> while you would still have all of the advantages of the forward position
> against Germany, without any Russian units that can threaten you.
>
> Is that as good as getting back Nwy?
>
> Let me know what you think.
You have two northern units right now. While I am perfectly willing to
swap/loan dots where necessary, I do not accept that it is "necessary" for
you to borrow Norway at this point. While I may in time want to capture
DEN - and if you are offering support, let me know - I am not persuaded
that I ought to give you Norway in exchange.
Perhaps it is because I am thickheaded, or perhaps it is your illness, but
I am missing the point. If you feel well enough, I'd appreciate you
addressing my points.
Ben
Message from Italy to Turkey
Jason,
> I need to check with Russia to see what his plans are. I'm also a little
> concerned about you getting that third fleet, without me having any.
> Could you alay my fears somewhat?
What would you like?
What can I do...we have a good thing going. I dont want to screw it up.
Andy
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
So far what I've heard from Russia corroborates the RT. Which is to say,
he is pushing very hard for EG war - attack on DEN - while asking if he can
keep NWY.
Erik remains nearly silent. I am entering orders NTH - NWY, SKA - SWE with
this press. Let me know what you hear from Russia & confirm DEN s SKA
-SWE, please.
This is a good course for both of us - I will stake my claim in the far
north and you will have me (a) in your debt and (b) dealing with somebody
else. Plus in the longer run if we work well together we could share the
many dots to our south.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Hi Ben, Yes as pledged I will be supporting SKA - SWE.
The RT is looking to scary, abuild in STP is on the rocks if we dont take
Sweden back. With Turkey as a friend he can concentrate north. Looking back
in time I once again state that s1901 is always a little scary. The game is
now on and my support will prove I can be trusted. I havent heared from
France either, if there is one thing bad for a relationship its lack of
communication.
Message from England to Turkey
Jason -
> We're trying to divvy up Ser right now. I don't want Italy to build
> another fleet, but I'd also rather keep working with him. I doubt those
> two things will both happen. :-)
Hm. Well if you do antagonize Andy in favor of an RT you should be
prepared for the cry of "Juggernaut" to go up and the entire board to turn
against you and Eric.
One option is for you to permit Italy to become something of a sea power
while you become more of a land power. This would call for an eventual
attack of Russia, of course. Long term you *should* be able to control
Andy pretty well, though; you would have armies in VEN, BUD, etc., compared
to his fleets in TUN, ADR, and so on.
Good luck.
Ben
Message from Turkey to Italy
What would I like? Can you proxy all your units and builds to me? :-))
No, seriously, just stay out of Aeg or Eas and we should be fine. Also,
I hope you understand if I need one fleet in the Med for self-defense.
jason
Message from Turkey to England
I think Andy and I should be ok for the moment. He does want Ser,
though, which I'm not a big fan of. I'll probably give it to him for
now, and then "ask" for it back later.
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
> No, seriously, just stay out of Aeg or Eas and we should be fine. Also,
> I hope you understand if I need one fleet in the Med for self-defense.
Not a problem. Can you give me 2 supports to Serbia.
It allows me to get position on Phillipe and hopefully next year, cede
Greece to you.
Andy
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> The RT is looking to scary, abuild in STP is on the rocks if we dont take
> Sweden back. With Turkey as a friend he can concentrate north. Looking
back
> in time I once again state that s1901 is always a little scary. The game
is
> now on and my support will prove I can be trusted. I havent heared from
> France either, if there is one thing bad for a relationship its lack of
> communication.
Ok, let's do it. As I said - orders are in.
Ben
Message from Turkey to Italy
2 supports ordered, no problem.
jason
Message from Italy to Turkey
>
> 2 supports ordered, no problem.
thank you
Message from Austria to Russia
Eric,
We have a problem. It seem that Jason's relation with Andy is much
stronger then I thought. I told him I wanted to favor an RT and
offered him Serbia, but here's what he said about that: "I'll see about
Ser. There's a lot of demand on it these days".
With that kind of response, I doubt anything can be done to break
this IT relationship and I'm forced to go back to the previous plan of
getting your fleet in Rum so you can dislodged him from Bla. The
best way of doing it is probably to support Sev-Rum from Ukr, Gal
& Ser while I support Ser from Bud in case it can be salvaged.
If you have a better idea, I look forward to hearing it,
Philippe
Message from England to England
> I think Andy and I should be ok for the moment. He does want Ser,
> though, which I'm not a big fan of. I'll probably give it to him for
> now, and then "ask" for it back later.
>
> jason
What I'm reading into this press is, Turkey thinks the IRT is a RT with an
Italian patsy. Based on the personalities I'm not surprised, though I
think he will be in for a nasty surprise when R and I come down on him. If
Tony actually does what he says, and works with me against Russia, then we
may disrupt the East pretty well, though.
T apparently does not see I as a long term partner; if Russia does indeed
collapse I wonder whether he will have the flexibility to take advantage.
Meanwhile I do not know how to respond. Trying to guide Turkey has been a
total failure; if he is listening his responses do not show it.
Ben
Message from England to Italy
Andy -
Turkey thinks you are the odd man out of the IRT. Do not turn west
prematurely.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Since last we wrote, Eric's been urinating on my leg. He tells me it's
rain, but I don't believe him anymore. ;-)
Ben
Message from Italy to England
> Andy -
> Turkey thinks you are the odd man out of the IRT. Do not turn west
> prematurely.
>
That isnt surprising.
Message from Italy to Russia
Eric,
What is Turkey telling you his moves are.
He has promised me 2 supports to Serbia. I would appreciate it if you
would encourage that.
thanks
Andy
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
I think we need to keep FR cooperation quiet for as long as possible. If
England believes that I'm working with you, especially now, his trust in
me is going to plummet. He's not too happy with you.
Tony's trying to get me to switch sides, of course, and is dangling
Belgium as a carrot. Since I can't hold Munich anyway, I may as well take
it. With Mun - Ruh, Pic - Bel and Bur S Pic - Bel, it's mine. I can tell
England that he should try to re-take Norway, which, thanks to support
from Sweden, should fail. That will put Germany at 4 or 5 (if he takes
Holland) and England at 3. Then we're set up for the plan as you outlines
it (you going for Den, me for the island).
I could even move Mao - Iri, playing into Tony's suggestions for me
switching sides, which would make me poised for a serious strike against
Ben next turn.
Thoughts?
Erik
Message from France to Italy
Andy:
I think be now it should be *very* obvious that the move to Piedmont was
a fluke, yes? And you should be quite please to see Ben and I tackling
Tony together.
So given how cooperative I've been lately, could you maybe shed some
light on what's going on in the Southeast for me?
Erik
Message from France to England
Ben --
I think I can take Belgium more or less uncontested this turn, despite
the probably loss of Munich. Mun - Ruhr, Pic - Bel, Bur S Pic - Bel.
Right? Under your suggestion, he could still end up breaking even this
turn, and he'd have to not attack Munich at all for Bur - Ruhr to work --
any attack will break that support, even if Mun isn't dislodged. Really,
to guarantee Ruhr, I'd have to attack from Munich. Seems like going for
Belgium is a better option.
I think Russia's move to Norway was born out of paranoia for his southern
situation. Given how that's going reasonably well, maybe he's less
anxious to have that build this season. Is there anything you can offer
him to back down?
Erik
Message from France to Austria
Phillipe:
Things aren't looking so hot for you right now, I have to say. That
Russian support of Turkey sort of baked your plans, didn't it? I wish I
could have given you some kind of warning, but all I had were hints from
third parties that you and Turkey weren't getting along.
Alas, Tyr is no longer there, so I can't even help you out there. Perhaps
we really should have grabbed at Italy when we had the chance.
So what's your plan now? England and I are still chiseling away at Tony;
I certainly didn't expect Tyr-Mun to work, but hey, I'll take it.
Erik
Message from France to Germany
Tony:
Yeah, if I'm going to head for Eng or Iri (which may be better), I'm
going to have to hit Bel. I need a fleet build to go after England, and
since MAO can't take Por if it's headed for Iri, that's got to come from
somewhere.
At least Russia seems semi-cooperative to your plans. He's not interested
in seeing Northern English fleets, I can tell you that much. For now,
while Austria's still alive, that's some consolation to you.
Do you know where Andy stands vis-a-vis Russia and Turkey? He's got
reason to work with RT right now, but he's got to know that they'll crush
him -- unless Russia's got something longer-term cooking with Italy.
So what's your plan?
Erik
Message from Russia to Turkey
> Well, Andy is pushing me to support him into Ser with Bul and Rum, while
> Philippe is telling me he'll give me Ser to prevent Andy from getting it.
>
> I don't know how you feel about Italy holding Ser, but with his fleets,
> if he builds a third (to my one), that'd be dicey.
Actually, there's an outside chance he'll get two builds without Ser. If
Philippe moves Tri again, Ven-Tri gets Andy a build.
In answer to your question, I think Andy growing that fast could be really
dangerous. I believe that he would probably move west with a fleet or two,
but he only needs to get as far Mar/Spa before setting up a stalemate line
and trying to hit you. In any case, if he gains Ser and builds a second army,
he can probably get into Tri and guarantee you can't retake Ser from him very
quickly.
> You can always attack Rum with Gal or Ukr, and cut my support of Gre -
> Ser. That would prevent Andy from getting a build.
But if I cut the support without attacking strongly (meaning, without
supporting myself) it will be obvious that the intent was to cut support for
Andy. He'll know we cooperated, at least in that he'll know you told me that
you were supporting him to Ser.
I gather you want him to think you are working with him, but I think that
this would be going to a lot of work to get nowhere. Right now it sounds like
Philippe is trying to keep Andy from growing. If we make it look like we're
fighting (which is what me tapping Rum would be), he (Philippe) may end up
needing to cut a deal with Andy. That would necessarily mean you losing Bul,
and probably Rum too.
> Ben also mentioned that he'd prefer to keep Nwy. You're probably better
> off going against Germany than England, anyway.
Yeah, Ben has said the same things to me. I'd be curious to hear your reasons
for thinking I'd be better off going against Germany. I'm not disagreeing
with you, but I know my own thinking is colored by being too close to the
situation, and obviously, Ben is biased as well.
I'm still not fully recovered yet, so I hope this all makes sense.
Thanks,
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
> We have a problem. It seem that Jason's relation with Andy is much
> stronger then I thought. I told him I wanted to favor an RT and
> offered him Serbia, but here's what he said about that: "I'll see about
> Ser. There's a lot of demand on it these days".
Clearly I've been off all weekend. I've gotten some press from each of Andy
and Jason and there might be some room to break up the IT. I'll see what I
can do about that and get back to you.
I know you won't overlook this, but do note that if you move Tri again,
there's a chance Ven could take it. Hearing you think about moving to Boh
makes me concerned that you might not think about bouncing Ven-Tri should it
happen (perhaps you were thinking about Bud-Tri, Ser-Bud, Vie-Boh, but that's
putting a lot of trust in Jason not move Bul-Ser instead of Rum-Ser).
Anyway, your defense is hardly my business, but I wanted to share the things
I was worried about that will hopefully help you.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
I've been off of email all weekend and apparently so have you.
After some press I've recieved over the weekend, I'm reasonably certain that
it's a good idea for us to do something to hamstring Ben. If I attack Germany
now, it's going to allow Ben to pick and choose between us (Tony and me).
That's bad for me. I'm also reasonably certain that Andy and Ben have a deal
to come after you after they each cement their positions against A and G
respectively (one big indicator is that Andy seems unusually upset that I may
be slowing down Ben's progress). That's bad for you.
So as noted in the last message I'd like to talk about what we can do to
quickly clean up in the north.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
> You have two northern units right now. While I am perfectly willing to
> swap/loan dots where necessary, I do not accept that it is "necessary" for
> you to borrow Norway at this point. While I may in time want to capture
> DEN - and if you are offering support, let me know - I am not persuaded
> that I ought to give you Norway in exchange.
> Perhaps it is because I am thickheaded, or perhaps it is your illness, but
> I am missing the point. If you feel well enough, I'd appreciate you
> addressing my points.
I don't know if it's the illness or not, but I'll give it another try.
My point was that to move on Tony would have required leaving only one
northern unit (Stp-Lvn). I had stated early in our discussions that for good
E/R cooperation, I would likely want enough units in Scandinavia to form a
northern stalemate line. Looking at the board had I moved Stp-Lvn, that was
not likely to have happened at any point. That plus the feeling I would need
a build for working in the south is what prompted the move.
On the second point, I was not explicitly offering support to Den, but I was
raising the idea that that might be reasonable recompense. It would give us
stable positions in the north while still advancing our position (really more
your position) against Tony. At this point I have not agreed to any
cooperative move.
Sorry, this note doesn't feel very politic. But I wanted to get something out
to you tonight.
--- Eric
Message from Italy to France
Erik,
> I think be now it should be *very* obvious that the move to Piedmont was
> a fluke, yes? And you should be quite please to see Ben and I tackling
> Tony together.
I am
>
> So given how cooperative I've been lately, could you maybe shed some
> light on what's going on in the Southeast for me?
>
Well...Im not 100% sure. And I am involved in it.
Ask me the same question after this fall move.
Andy
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
Our messages crossed.
I'm sure that Tony is offering to cut support for Nwy for Ben to keep Ben
focused away from Den. Who knows, he may even go through with it. Tony is
doing whatever he can to break up EF. If you got Bel and Iri, that would
basically cut Ben out of everything (guaranteed down two by 04) and then we
could collapse on Tony.
To be honest, that's waaay more aggressive than I normally play this game,
but I'd be willing to give it a go if you are.
I have to go to bed now, so will likely not see your response to this until
tomorrow.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
On an unrelated note, both of our teams sucked today. I think mine sucked a
whole lot more than yours, but I may be biased.
--- Eric
Message from Germany to France
Good to hear from you Erik. I can ubderstand you hitting belgium. I will be
hitting Holland and removing you from Munich.
Thats all I have planned this round. As for Austria I have no idea. He is
not very communicative, Italy even less so.
I do worry about RT, thats was some nice diploming by Russia. I got him to
build in STP and go after ENgland. I had to break EF up any way I could and
get some alliance going with either of you.
Englands seems the easiest to attack now. I still have this gut feeling that
Russia will build in STP again this year so the sooner we get to England the
better. At least denying ENgland a build means that you are in LVP next
spring and nothing he can do about it. That means two builds for you next
year (LVP & POR). WIth the build from BEL this you put you firmly in the
driving seat. I will soon have to get some sort of alliance with Austria on
the rails but for now he isnt communicating.
Have you any news on IA.?
Message from Turkey to Russia
Well, it turns out that I decided to help Andy into Ser. That might come
back to haunt me, but I do plan to build F Smy regardless.
As for Ben, I'd say it's a lot easier for you to hold him off than
Germany. If he's down to 3 centers, he won't be able to backstop us
against France and Germany.
jason
Message from Germany to Russia
Still waiting to hear from you. I hope you see there is no need to support
NWY. He will be coming after me. I am expecting MUN - KIE and both English
fleets to hit Denmark. With or without your support ;-)
There is nothing I can do about it now, I just hope I have convinced you to
support me. A strong EF will be a formidable force.
Message from Germany to Germany
Well I have decided to go with England. At worst he attacks me and Russia
supports me.
The RT is a little worrying, a build in STP and SWE - BAL along with NWY -
SWE next year and I am in big trouble.
I may still have FE against me but I guess that is the price I pay for the
spring 1901 deception.
Message from Germany to England
The Russian has informed me that he has offered support to DEN from SKA. I
have ordered the support of SKA - SWE. Its up to you now. I would consider
convoying YOR - NWY, a cut support is a cut support.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> The Russian has informed me that he has offered support to
> DEN from SKA.
He said he would consider it but did not even make the offer.
> I have ordered the support of SKA - SWE. Its up to you now.
As you say.
In the spring, will DEN be available to support me in SWE/SKA?
Curious to see the results in the East, particularly around SER.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
> I think I can take Belgium more or less uncontested this turn, despite
> the probably loss of Munich. Mun - Ruhr, Pic - Bel, Bur S Pic - Bel.
> Right? Under your suggestion, he could still end up breaking even this
> turn, and he'd have to not attack Munich at all for Bur -
> Ruhr to work --
> any attack will break that support, even if Mun isn't
> dislodged. Really,
> to guarantee Ruhr, I'd have to attack from Munich. Seems like
> going for Belgium is a better option.
I agree 100%. Go for BEL. There is a very good chance he will not try to
dislodge MUN anyway, so you may end up with both. *And* POR. Good luck, my
friend.
> I think Russia's move to Norway was born out of paranoia for
> his southern
> situation. Given how that's going reasonably well, maybe he's less
> anxious to have that build this season. Is there anything you
> can offer him to back down?
I've tried talking to him about it but he is pretty firmly resisting my
overtures. He suggested he *might* support me into DEN but after he (a)
built in STP and (b) captured NWY, I'm leery of coordinating with him.
Basically we are looking at an RT. In an RT Russia *must* capture the far
North. So Eric is playing out his part of the string, and I do not know if
I would do it any differently, in his shoes. The alliance structure in the
East may change, but for now, I am dealing with a force not of my making.
He wants to keep NWY. If he keeps NWY as a "loaner" it will be nearly
impossible for me to reclaim except by force, as it will require me to land
a unit next to STP, which is something he will not likely agree to.
Bear in mind how last phase he used you against us. . .
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> My point was that to move on Tony would have required leaving only one
> northern unit (Stp-Lvn). I had stated early in our
> discussions that for good
> E/R cooperation, I would likely want enough units in
> Scandinavia to form a northern stalemate line.
Yes, I remember that conversation. I had thought I responded, that such a
force would be four to six units (can't remember for sure if you can do it
with four, may need five) and require Russian occupation of Norway, which is
hardly pro-English. What I recall I wrote in exchange was, you may wish to
defend your border with me *diplomatically*, as to construct such a massive
force and deploy them against a friendly England might drain your more hotly
contested borders to the south and west.
> Looking at the board had I moved
> Stp-Lvn, that was
> not likely to have happened at any point. That plus the
> feeling I would need
> a build for working in the south is what prompted the move.
As I said, I understood it in the context of the upheaval in the south.
Fortunately that seems to have abated. Unless you are Austria, which you
are not.
> On the second point, I was not explicitly offering support to
> Den, but I was
> raising the idea that that might be reasonable recompense. It
> would give us
> stable positions in the north while still advancing our
> position (really more
> your position) against Tony. At this point I have not agreed to any
> cooperative move.
Here is what I am seeing, as I struggle to read between the lines. Forgive
me if my inexperience leads me down the wrong path in this analysis.
You clearly have a southern partner. My guess is, you are biding your time
and are prepared to choose Jason or Andy, depending on your needs when you
are forced to make the choice. A southern partner for Russia means, to many
Muscovites, expansion in the North. Which is why you talk to me of
stalemate lines & expanding to cover Norway, etc. *However* I would urge
you, before you rush too quickly to follow the script, consider the
following alternative: work with Erik and myself against Germany. You will
have to deal with Tony eventually, why not now, when he is engaged with EF?
If you do get to choose from your southern friends, and would eventually
like to make that push for the northern waters, why not do that after Tony
has been limited or eliminated? RG conflict is basically unavoidable, and I
daresay with Tony in Germany that much moreso in this game. ER conflict, on
the other hand need not *ever* take place. So I would recommend to you,
reconsider this path I think you are on. You do not need a Northern
"stalemate line" - I have vacated Norway to give you security and I would
like to see us work together.
On to a lighter subject. . .
> On an unrelated note, both of our teams sucked today. I think
> mine sucked a
> whole lot more than yours, but I may be biased.
Yes, but Oakland is supposed to suck. Didn't you get the memorandum? The
Baltimore game was a circus. For one and a half quarters we played like
Super Bowl champions, blowing Saint Louis off both sides of the ball, to
come back from the 14-0 head start to be winning going into the half.
Unfortunately neither our starting qb nor our offensive line came back onto
the field for the second half. We had a backup at quarterback and five
random stiffs from the stands, wearing Ravens uniforms and pads, as our
offensive line.
Pushing a quality Jets team to overtimes was not so bad. Blowing the lead
was ugly, but if I told you ahead of time you'd be losing to the Jets in
overtime maybe you wouldn't be too upset. Discouraging to read Jerry Rice
complaining about the coaching, though. . .
Ben
Message from England to England
My correspondence with Russia for the last few days has been to set up
friendly relations *after* the dust clears, as I do not think he has any
intention of trying to work with me, for now, whether he orders the support
to DEN or not. There is no reason - tactically or diplomatically - that NWY
should be annexed by Russia. I wanted to tell him no, politely, so that he
cannot claim betrayal, if things go well with Germany.
I am worried about Erik's response to me working with Tony in the North -
just another risk I'm taking, I guess. Trying to set that up by painting
Russia as a bad guy, but I don't think that's working too well yet.
If I can maintain the FG ground war then I should be ok, for awhile.
Ben
Message from England to France
Erik -
Perhaps if you do get two or three builds you will consider beginning your
push into the Med. The reason I say this is, whether there is an RT or an
RI makes little difference to me in the North. But if it is an RI, which is
perfectly likely, then you may be looking at Andy pushing at you as Eric is
pushing at me, in the imminent future.
Turkey seems to think it is an RT. But of course it's what *he* would
think; after all, it's what he's being told. . .
Ben
Message from France to Germany
Nothing from IA, really. Andy continues to encourage Ben and I to take you
down, but that's nothing new.
Would you be willing to consider breaking Russia's support of Nwy? As much
as we need to take England out, we also *really* need to keep Russia in
check. If I'm headed for Iri or Eng anyway, allowing Ben to keep that
extra unit isn't going to make much of a difference -- he'll still be out
of position.
Erik
Message from France to England
> I agree 100%. Go for BEL. There is a very good chance he will not try
> to
> dislodge MUN anyway, so you may end up with both. *And* POR. Good
> luck, my
> friend.
Will do. Is there any way you can get Germany to break Sweden's support?
Germany can't be too pleased about seeing RT at his back, and maybe you
can dangle a truce in Germany's face as a way to get the support you need.
You've clearly both got a problem with Russia.
Since Holland seems like an impossibility, it seems to me that you would
be better off at least trying to enlist some help from Germany to get your
Scandanavian center back. You can't do damage against Germany this turn,
I'll be doing plenty, so you should try to save yourself up north and keep
Russia from getting too dominant.
>
> He wants to keep NWY. If he keeps NWY as a "loaner" it will be nearly
> impossible for me to reclaim except by force, as it will require me to
> land
> a unit next to STP, which is something he will not likely agree to.
No such thing as a loaner in this game, if you ask me. Let's see if we can
get Germany to cut support for Nwy.
Just got your other message. I would indeed be willing to consider
building down south. Andy isn't a problem right now, but that can only
last a year or two max. I'm a little soft down there right now, so F Mar
or, if you're willing to consider it, F Bre - Mao - Spa (sc) are both
options.
Erik
Message from France to Russia
Eric:
I agree, it's a little aggressive, but I see opportunities here. Thanks
for the info about Andy and Ben, though that's not surprising; I'd be
doing the same in both their positions. The key is to take one of them out
before that can happen. Italy seems more useful to you in the near-term,
so I think England is the obivious candidate.
I'm going to end up with Belgium no matter what. Ben is fixated on taking
Norway back; as such, you may want to watch for slipper maneuvers on
Tony's part -- it would not be entirely out of line for him to suddenly
break your support to Nwy and let England back in. In fact, that's the
sort of manipulation that he seems to be most fond of.
The big question is simply whether I should make a move on Iri right now
or not. If you keep Nwy, are you planning on building StP? If so, what and
which coast?
And heading into next turn, how do we continue with this? Can you afford
to send, for example, Gal over to Sil?
Erik
Message from England to France
Erik -
> Will do. Is there any way you can get Germany to break
> Sweden's support?
Tony's offered me support into SWE. For now, the situation in the East is
*very* favorable to Russia - basically getting some Austrian spoils while I
and T fight each other over the Balkans - and that's not good for Germany
either. So I am keeping my fingers crossed that Tony will keep his word,
this time.
> Germany can't be too pleased about seeing RT at his back, and
> maybe you
> can dangle a truce in Germany's face as a way to get the
> support you need.
> You've clearly both got a problem with Russia.
*sigh*
> Since Holland seems like an impossibility, it seems to me
> that you would
> be better off at least trying to enlist some help from
> Germany to get your
> Scandanavian center back. You can't do damage against Germany
> this turn,
> I'll be doing plenty, so you should try to save yourself up
> north and keep Russia from getting too dominant.
We are of like mind - that's the plan. Maintain position against Germany
but push Russia off the ball in the North.
> > He wants to keep NWY. If he keeps NWY as a "loaner" it
> > will be nearly impossible for me to reclaim except by
> > force, as it will require me to land a unit next to STP,
> > which is something he will not likely agree to.
>
> No such thing as a loaner in this game, if you ask me.
Well, sometimes there is real dot-swapping, and I have no problem with that.
But I do not believe it is appropriate for Russia to be claiming Norway in
'02, barring something extreme we are not seeing here.
> Just got your other message. I would indeed be willing to consider
> building down south. Andy isn't a problem right now, but that can only
> last a year or two max. I'm a little soft down there right
> now, so F Mar
> or, if you're willing to consider it, F Bre - Mao - Spa (sc) are both
> options.
When we get to that bridge, we will cross it.
Ben
Message from Germany to England
Erik is enquiring about the north, as I dont fully dismiss the fact that he
and Russia are already carving us up I stated that you and I are stil in
negotiations in the north.
Message from Germany to France
I am currently looking at the situation in the north with both England and
Russia. I am awaiting a reply from both of them.
It will be interesting to see how the situation in the east develops.
Message from Germany to England
Yes, I see no reason why it wont be able to support you.
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> Erik is enquiring about the north, as I dont fully dismiss
> the fact that he
> and Russia are already carving us up I stated that you and I
> are stil in negotiations in the north.
I know France and Russia are negotiating. I've tried telling France about
the RT bogeyman and the menace in Italy, so hopefully he will keep focussed
south.
Do you want to reconsider DEN - SWE, thus permitting me the convoy to NWY?
Of course, the downside is, support could be cut SWE - SKA. What do you
think? I'm trying to think ahead, to how I will get into NWY; I guess we
should just see how SWE will retreat. . .
Ben
Message from Germany to England
No, I dont wish to move DEN for now. I am supporting it from KIE just in
case Russia doesnt come through.
As it is holding all it can do is give support.
Message from Germany to Germany
The fact that both E&F are asking for me to cut support from Sweden makes me
believe that I am facing both of them. I have not offered support into
Sweden.
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
Sorry, I've been sick and jumped online for only a few minutes over the
weekend. I thought I had sent you an update, but obviously failed to.
Basically, right now I'm hearing from a number of places that Nwy is Ben's
target. That has me leaning to supporting Nwy, on the assumption that Den is
not threatened. It seems unlikely that Erik will cut your support for Den,
since he knows he can't hold Mun. I guess it's possible that Erik might try
to help Ben to his own detriment, but it seems unlikely.
Basically we're in a three-way guessing game, where Ben can either attempt a
two-strength attack on Den (hoping for support from Swe), attempt a
two-strength attack on Nwy, hoping for you to cut support from Swe, or can
offer to attack Swe with you while Nth cuts support. Any of these is a risk
-- if I offer support for Ska-Den he might attack Nwy knowing I can't defend
it. Similarly, if you offer to move Den-Swe for any reason, then he could
attack Den because it will be on the move.
--- Eric
Message from England to Germany
Tony -
> No, I dont wish to move DEN for now. I am supporting it from
> KIE just in case Russia doesnt come through.
> As it is holding all it can do is give support.
That's fine. I'm inclined to think in a fall phase the attack against NWY
would be unnecessarily risky anyway.
Ben
Message from Russia to Turkey
Here's my concern: if you and I fight while Italy grows, then he'll be in the
driver's seat. It also means a very good chance that RT conflict is coming,
since it doesn't make sense for you to build up an opponent right before
attacking him. If we do end up fighting, while Andy has units in Ser, Ven and
probably Tyr, he'll get the lion's share of the Balkans, as well as being
able to draw out RT fighting by supporting whichever of us is doing worse.
Maybe I'm being alarmist, but can you help me understand how RT would go
forward if you get Andy into Ser? Or are you just trying to goad me into
tapping Rum? :)
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Turkey
Did I already mention the possibility of Rum-Ser, Bul S Rum-Ser, Gal/Ukr-Rum?
That would give you the build for F Smy, make sure that Andy cannot project
force north into the Balkans, and still leave us with a bunch of armies that
can combine to get you Gre, and then split the Austrian home centers among
us.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
> I had thought I responded, that such
> a force would be four to six units
> [....] and require Russian occupation of Norway, which is
> hardly pro-English. What I recall I wrote in exchange was, you may wish
> to defend your border with me *diplomatically*, as to construct such a
> massive force and deploy them against a friendly England might drain
> your more hotly contested borders to the south and west.
Correct, and I'm not looking to deploy such a force early. I know I'm
repeating myself here, but my point was that having only one unit in the
north now made having the possibility of defending myself in the north later
(any by later, I mean mid-end game) much more unlikely.
>> Looking at the board had I moved Stp-Lvn, that was
>> not likely to have happened at any point. That plus the
>> feeling I would need
>> a build for working in the south is what prompted the move.
>As I said, I understood it in the context of the upheaval in the south.
Actually, I hadn't realized that you made that statement at any point in this
dialogue.
>Fortunately that seems to have abated. Unless you are Austria, which you
>are not.
:)
> Here is what I am seeing, as I struggle to read between the lines.
> Forgive me if my inexperience leads me down the wrong path in this
> analysis.
I'm clearly not doing a good job of communicating this. I think this may be
in part because I'm being somewhat indirect in my comments. Let me try to be
more direct: I see a very strong EF, where both players are very vigorous in
their desire to see me help with removing G. There is nothing inherently
wrong with that, but we both know that Tony is going to be doing whatever he
can to throw one of us in a different driection. Last season he offered
Den-Nth to me, he probably offered Den-Swe to you. Overally, he's trying to
play us against each other, and as you comment, I daresay he's trying to do
so much moreso than you and I are trying to play each other (if that's not
true, you obviously won't tell me, but if it is my hat's off to you for your
diploming skill).
By virtue of your fleet strength, once you are in Den, Tony cannot
realistically make a move that hurts you, or even really benefits me. He can
make moves that slow you and he can fail to oppose me, but that's about it.
With F Swe alone in the north, and a vengeful and angy German F Bal due to
retreats, there are all sorts of things Tony can (and would) offer to you to
get you to move north on me. Eventually as he grinds down, you would be very
tempted to take advantage of that support, since there would be no way for me
to realistically retaliate.
Clearly he still can help you, and my moves have probably made it more likely
that you might work with him sooner rather than later. I would be stunned if
Tony has not already offered to use Den to help you against me, and I won't
be too surprised if he actually provides such support, though I suspect he's
really more interested in seeing Kie freed up to help defend against Mun.
Frankly, if Tony does end up helping you I will no doubt come crawling back
to you with a completely different viewpoint on the importance of a second
Scandinavian unit for Russia.
A Nwy is clearly not great for England, but it's a whole lot better than F
Nwy, and it's no threat to England beyond the loss of that particular dot.
It's clear that we can cooperate from the current board position, though I'm
not looking like as trustworthy an ally to you as I probably did earlier.
From my point of view the value of A Nwy is in making it more inviting for
you to spend effort moving west rather than east once Germany falls. I wish I
could have come up with a better scenario for getting that position to be,
but that's the motivation.
So enough excuses and discussion. You are saying that Nwy-StP is a good way
to rebuild our relationship. Supposing that I agree to that, what would your
moves be and how would we proceed in an EFR vs. G?
> If you do get to choose from your southern friends, and would eventually
> like to make that push for the northern waters, why not do that after
> Tony has been limited or eliminated?
You may be pegging me as more confident than I am. I am not at all clear that
I get to choose from southern friends. I still feel like I'm playing catchup
with the other alliances down there.
On the other point, I think that's what I was trying to address in the longer
section above. I don't want to make a big push to the north; I just want to
have enough in place to not look like an easy mark down the road.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>On to a lighter subject. . .
>Yes, but Oakland is supposed to suck. Didn't you get the memorandum?
No official memorandum, but the message has come through loud and clear. If
the first two losses didn't make it obvious, the last five in a row certainly
did. The most anguishing thing is that I have tickets to the game with the
Broncos on Thanksgiving weekend. I don't know how much I'm looking forward to
going to that one....
> The Baltimore game was a circus. For one and a half quarters we played
> like Super Bowl champions, blowing Saint Louis off both sides of the
> ball, to come back from the 14-0 head start to be winning going into the
> half.
That was amazing. I was *sure* you guys were going to wipe them out, but the
score compared to the stat box was just bizarre. I think they said the Rams
set a record for most points/yard gained by any team that scored over 30
points. And the stat that Faulk had two TDs on -1 yard rushing. Just bizarre.
> Unfortunately neither our starting qb nor our offensive line came
> back onto the field for the second half. We had a backup at quarterback
> and five random stiffs from the stands, wearing Ravens uniforms and
> pads, as our offensive line.
Welcome to my world. Rick Mirer as old as the rest of the team, just with
less experience. :/
> Pushing a quality Jets team to overtimes was not so bad.
"I've seen the Raiders play quality Jets teams [we were at the Jets-Raiders
playoff game two years ago] and that was NOT a quality Jets team."
> Blowing the
> lead was ugly, but if I told you ahead of time you'd be losing to the
> Jets in overtime maybe you wouldn't be too upset.
You are ever the diplomat. :)
> Discouraging to read Jerry Rice complaining about the coaching, though. . .
Well, if a 2-7 start doesn't cause people to complain, something else is
wrong. Gannon saying that he was perfectly happy with his play when the team
was at 2-2 or 2-4 or so was just stunning.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Excellent to hear from you.
> >As I said, I understood it in the context of the upheaval in
> the south.
>
> Actually, I hadn't realized that you made that statement at
> any point in this
> dialogue.
I think what happened is, you overlooked what I'd written because I used the
Cyrillic word "undertainty":
************
Message sent to Russia:
Message from BHarris@StAttorney.org as England to Russia in 'c2':
Eric -
Well, I was disappointed of course, but I can understand why, with
undertainty in the south, you felt you needed the dot.>
***********
;-)
[snippage]
> A Nwy is clearly not great for England, but it's a whole lot
> better than F
> Nwy, and it's no threat to England beyond the loss of that
> particular dot.
That was my thinking, too. I could not understand why you captured with the
army.
[more snippage - reinsert where appropriate]
> So enough excuses and discussion. You are saying that Nwy-StP
> is a good way
> to rebuild our relationship. Supposing that I agree to that,
> what would your
> moves be and how would we proceed in an EFR vs. G?
How about, I dislodge NWY and you disband it, rebuilding in WAR? It would
require an extension of trust, on your part, but it's one possibility.
Another is NWY - SWE, SWE - BAL. Could bounce, but again, I could force NWY
and you would have that rebuilding option. Frankly I haven't given this
much thought - please send your counter-proposals.
What I liked about STP - LVN was that it put you in Berlin pretty quickly.
Water under the bridge now, of course.
I am trying to be smart; please bear with me.
[more snippage - too much Dip at work]
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >On to a lighter subject. . .
> >Yes, but Oakland is supposed to suck. Didn't you get the memorandum?
>
> No official memorandum, but the message has come through loud
> and clear. If
> the first two losses didn't make it obvious, the last five in
> a row certainly
> did. The most anguishing thing is that I have tickets to the
> game with the
> Broncos on Thanksgiving weekend. I don't know how much I'm
> looking forward to going to that one....
If you have tickets - you should be looking forward to it. Win, lose, or
draw. Going to the game is fantastic.
> > The Baltimore game was a circus. For one and a half
> quarters we played
> > like Super Bowl champions, blowing Saint Louis off both sides of the
> > ball, to come back from the 14-0 head start to be winning
> going into the
> > half.
>
> That was amazing. I was *sure* you guys were going to wipe
> them out, but the
> score compared to the stat box was just bizarre. I think they
> said the Rams
> set a record for most points/yard gained by any team that
> scored over 30
> points. And the stat that Faulk had two TDs on -1 yard
> rushing. Just bizarre.
Clearly as I sit here our season hangs in the balance, while they MRI Kyle
Boller's knee.
> > Unfortunately neither our starting qb nor our offensive line came
> > back onto the field for the second half. We had a backup
> at quarterback
> > and five random stiffs from the stands, wearing Ravens uniforms and
> > pads, as our offensive line.
>
> Welcome to my world. Rick Mirer as old as the rest of the
> team, just with less experience. :/
I'll trade you Chris Redman for Rick Mirer.
Ben
Message from Austria to England
> I am really curious to know how they respond.
To paint the right picture, you should know that I made
separate offer of Vienna to Russia & Serbia to Turkey
so he could build 2 fleets to go after Italy.
Eric accepted, but Jason told me he needed to think
about it since there was alot of demand for Serbia!?!
I didn't bother replying to Jason as I don't see the point
of trying to convince him to kill me in alliance with Eric
if he's allready so involved in killing me with Andy. I will
see what can be done with Eric, but I wouldn't worry
about any RT in your place.
Regards,
Philippe.
P.-S. If you can make sense of Jason for me, please do
so as I'm done trying to.
Message from Austria to Russia
> Clearly I've been off all weekend. I've gotten some press from each of Andy
> and Jason and there might be some room to break up the IT. I'll see what I
> can do about that and get back to you.
I would remind you that the dl is tonight,
so don't waste too much time with Jason.
Hope to hear from you,
Philippe
Message from England to Austria
Philippe -
> To paint the right picture, you should know that I made
> separate offer of Vienna to Russia & Serbia to Turkey
> so he could build 2 fleets to go after Italy.
Ok, what you'd planned. . .
> Eric accepted, but Jason told me he needed to think
> about it since there was alot of demand for Serbia!?!
*chuckle*
> I didn't bother replying to Jason as I don't see the point
> of trying to convince him to kill me in alliance with Eric
> if he's allready so involved in killing me with Andy. I will
> see what can be done with Eric, but I wouldn't worry
> about any RT in your place.
I would appreciate it if you would keep this morsel between us. The image
of an RT is very helpful to me right now. Thank you for the excellent
insight.
My insight about Jason is, he is well-meaning but inexperienced. He will
get better, but hopefully only as much as we want him to, for now.
Hardly a news-flash, I know.
Godspeed.
Ben
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
Plan B - I hope addressing all your objections. Tony's been offering
support for SKA - SWE. What if I *accept*?
You hold onto NWY and (assuming Tony makes good on his promise and supports
SKA - SWE; if he doesn't, fairly or unfairly, I'd suspect a leak) you
retreat from SWE to BAL. Suddenly my position against you is not very good
- I am further than ever from STP - but our combined position against
Germany is better than ever.
I like this plan best & have put in the corresponding orders, with wait set.
Thoughts?
Ben
Message from Russia to England
> I think what happened is, you overlooked what I'd written because I used
> the Cyrillic word "undertainty":
> ************
> Message sent to Russia:
>
> Message from BHarris@StAttorney.org as England to Russia in 'c2':
>
> Eric -
> Well, I was disappointed of course, but I can understand why, with
> undertainty in the south, you felt you needed the dot.>
> ***********
> ;-)
Ahh. I think I was so stunned by the use of the word "disappointed" that I
didn't digest the rest of the message.
>> Supposing that I agree to that, what would your
>> moves be and how would we proceed in an EFR vs. G?
>How about, I dislodge NWY and you disband it, rebuilding in WAR? It
>would require an extension of trust, on your part, but it's one
>possibility. Another is NWY - SWE, SWE - BAL. Could bounce, but again, I
>could force NWY and you would have that rebuilding option. Frankly I
>haven't given this much thought - please send your counter-proposals.
Well, this is the reverse point of view of who extends what trust, but what
about standing pat now (meaning holding onto Nwy) but following this plan for
next season. Essentially me taking Nwy, but looking to replace it (rather
than augment it) with Ber in '03. If Tony helps you against me, you know I
will be motivated to help you -- in that case I'd probably use the center or
disband to build F StP/sc. If he doesn't, then I'd probably bulid A War. In
either case, we could move forward together.
So I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to move as if I'm going to
keep Nwy. I'd like to sugarcoat that, but I don't think it's that
sugarcoatable. Since I expect Tony has already offered support against me
(whether or not he provides it) I won't take it amiss if you attack Nwy in
Fall, even if you are successful. In that case, our moves end up being what
you suggested anyway (this supposing you end up taking it with a fleet and
not an army). The other option for you would be that you try to take Den and
ignore me. I gather you are disposed towards the former option, but I don't
need you'd to tell me which way you expect to move or whether or not you
expect to be successful.
> I am trying to be smart; please bear with me.
That's when I always get into trouble myself!
> If you have tickets - you should be looking forward to it. Win, lose,
> or draw. Going to the game is fantastic.
True, it's just the 3-4 hour round travel time (round trip) is a lot of
investment for a bad game. On the plus side, we should be able to find some
free seats in good sections!
> I'll trade you Chris Redman for Rick Mirer.
Touche!
--- Eric
Message from Russia to England
Our press passed each other.
Yeah, I knew you both were too good to miss that option.
FWIW, I expected he would offer that support as well, and have already hinted
to him that I realized he might be tempted to offer to help you with Den. I
didn't explicitly say Ska-Swe on the off-chance that neither of you would
come up with it, but I've had my eye on that move for awhile. Be aware that
threats for retaliation have already been made against him.
My preference is that you attack Tony, but that's not terribly realistic and
so is not a demand I can make of you. When I said "go ahead and attack me if
you can get Tony's help" in that last message, Ska-Swe was specifically in my
mind as a possibility. I will not hold it against you if you make that
attack, but do be warned in evaluating Tony's offer that I've already warned
him about the consequences of such a move. At the same time he has asked me
to offer you support for Ska-Den and then to order Swe S Den. The obvious
idea being that if you work with me you suffer (Den is supported, you go down
one) and if you don't, I suffer (Nwy is not supported), but in either case
he's doing well. I think he wants the freedom to order Kie S ???-Mun and so
is more interested in distracting you. But I can't overlook the real
possibility that he'll actually order the support.
So that move is your call. Given what I've heard, I'm entering orders to
self-support myself, and you shouldn't have to tell me what you will actually
order. As long as you don't move to Nwg or stick an army into Nwy, I think we
are good. I promise to act surprised if you do succeed.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Austria
Philippe,
I don't have high hopes of getting Jason to change his mind, but I think the
moves are likely to work out in a way that will keep you fairly happy. Until
I hear something from Jason, I'm still planning to take Rum as we've
discussed.
I don't think that what (if anything) gets discussed between Jason and I will
impact your moves at all though.
I realize I haven't said anything of value in this message, but I wanted you
to know that I'm not looking to do anything that will require last minute
complex coordination between you and me.
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
> As long as you don't move to Nwg or stick an army into
> Nwy, I think we
> are good. I promise to act surprised if you do succeed.
By telling you ahead of time, and securing your blessing, my hope is it will
be win/win for our relationship. I would like to succeed mostly because I
would like to see you in BAL. Our position would be crushing.
If it fails, as you say, you will owe me one next year, and I will still be
in a good position to make you sorry, if you try to welch on me. It won't
be worth the one dot, as you know.
It will be marvelous if it succeeds - I hope you can act well. . .
Ben
Message from Russia to England
I agree that it would be win-win. My point was more that Tony IS forewarned
that I know he might try that. I have not (and will not) say anything to make
him think that I am expecting it.
Good luck, I think. :)
--- Eric
Message from England to Russia
Eric -
> Good luck, I think. :)
Thank you, my friend. We will see.
Ben
Message from Russia to France
Erik,
From recent press I think there's a good chance E/G may be working against
me. I may well lose Nwy. Consider in your planning on Iri vs. Por that
England may not actually go down a center. That may affect how much you want
to press Ben vs. Tony.
--- Eric
Message from Austria to Russia
> I don't have high hopes of getting Jason to change his mind, but I think the
> moves are likely to work out in a way that will keep you fairly happy. Until
> I hear something from Jason, I'm still planning to take Rum as we've
> discussed.
>
> I don't think that what (if anything) gets discussed between Jason and I will
> impact your moves at all though.
>
> I realize I haven't said anything of value in this message, but I wanted you
> to know that I'm not looking to do anything that will require last minute
> complex coordination between you and me.
No, that's perfect. I wanted to make sure that I
wasn't supporting Sev-Rum for nothing.
Philippe
Message from Russia to Germany
Tony,
I'm getting a little frustrated with Ben. He has repeatedly asked me to give
him back Nwy. It's actually kind of funny, because he keeps saying that he
has not agreed to me taking it, as if it were his to give. He was not willing
to discuss taking support to Den until he is back in Nwy.
It is abundantly clear that he is not planning to attack you until I leave or
am forced out of Nwy. I'm going to have to stick with supporting myself in
Nwy for now. I'm pretty confident that you can ignore the threat of him
attacking Den and use Kie to help take back Mun. Of course, that's easy for
me to say, since you're the one taking the risk. I don't want to know whether
Kie will support Den or Mun, but you do need to know that Swe is ordering
support for Nwy and that I think England will not be hitting Den.
Yours,
--- Eric
Message from Germany to Russia
Well that would fit in. EF are asking me to cut support from Sweden to allow
E to retake NWY.
I said no and that I would only support DEN - SWE.
So I am 100% sure he will go for Norway.
I will be losing DEN. He wont go for NWY without my support, I have not
given it. Only verbaly.
Message from Germany to Russia
I ment SKA - SWE not DEN - SWE
> I said no and that I would only support DEN - SWE.
> So I am 100% sure he will go for Norway.
> I will be losing DEN. He wont go for NWY without my support, I have not
> given it. Only verbaly. Anyway I cant hold DEN with KIE as MUN will cut
support from KIE.
I guess I just have to lose DEN.
Message from Russia to Russia
Well, I'm pretty happy with the way things seem to be going in the north. I
don't actually mind losing a dot to Ben, I just don't want to have to move
against Tony when he could retreat to Bal. If I end up retreating to Bal,
then that's actually pretty good. Of course, Ben could use Swe to take Nwy
and really kill me, but if there is a GE that I can't split up, then I'm
not going to feel too bad dying that way.
I'm a little concerned about not having heard from Erik, but I can live
with that. If he attacks Ben, then Ben will need my help. If he doesn't,
then Tony is still in trouble. If things go the way I think they will.
The south is less clear. With Andy, on the one hand it would be good for IR
to allow Andy to take Ser. On the other hand, he is basically saying "look,
I need two builds, but you should give up a build in the north to make it
easier for me to get even more builds in the west". I believe that my take
on what he wants to see happen (Philippe die, but RT to start fighting) is
accurate, and I believe that Jason is on board with that.
I think Jason is trying to look nice to Andy by supporting him to Ser, so
that I will look like the bad guy if I tap the unit. My thinking is either
I'll leave the unit alone or I'll destroy the unit. Destroying the unit
still means that Jason gets a build, and it basically guarantees that the
build will be F Ank, instead of allowing for the chance that he really will
build F Smy as he's saying he will.
So for now my moves are Swe S Nwy, Nwy S Swe, Sev-Rum, Gal S Sev-Rum and
Ukr S Sev-Rum. I considered something like Ukr-Rum, but I think Jason will
take destroying Rum as a bad thing no matter how I try to spin it, and
taking it with the army is just going to make Philippe unhappy. There's the
chance that Jason will do Con-Bla-Sev (I would certainly consider it in his
shoes), which would be very unpleasant. If he thinks I'm attacking him (and
Philippe may have shared that info) then that's actually a higher
likelihood than I'd like to think. Or Philippe and Jason could be planning
Vie-Gal along with Con-Bla-Sev, but for now I'm going to hope/guess that's
not happening.
--- Eric
Message from Russia to Germany
>I guess I just have to lose DEN.
I can say this: If you do lose Den, it means that EF is MUCH stronger than
I thought. Of course I could be underestimating them, but if I am it will
be a real eye opener for me, and I will be very interested in seeing you
get it back. Getting Den back shouldn't be too hard to do even if it does
fall.
But as I said, what I'm hearing strongly indicates that you will not be
attacked.
--- Eric
Message from Turkey to Russia
Right now, Andy and I have a deal where he gets Ser and I get Gre. For
the moment, I'm happy with that. You and I have to deal with Austria and
Germany. In the future, I might reevaluate Andy.
jason
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Serbia
Austria: Army Serbia SUPPORT Russian Fleet Sevastopol → Rumania (*cut*)
Austria: Fleet Trieste → Adriatic Sea
Austria: Army Vienna → Trieste (*bounce*)
England: Fleet London → North Sea (*bounce*)
England: Fleet North Sea → Norway (*bounce*)
England: Fleet Skagerrak → Sweden (*bounce*)
England: Army Yorkshire HOLD
France: Army Burgundy SUPPORT Army Picardy → Belgium
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean → Portugal
France: Army Munich → Ruhr
France: Army Picardy → Belgium
Germany: Army Belgium → Burgundy (*bounce, destroyed*)
Germany: Army Berlin → Munich
Germany: Fleet Denmark HOLD
Germany: Army Kiel SUPPORT Army Berlin → Munich
Germany: Army Ruhr → Holland
Italy: Army Greece → Serbia (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea → Tunis
Italy: Fleet Naples → Ionian Sea
Italy: Army Venice → Trieste (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Galicia SUPPORT Fleet Sevastopol → Rumania
Russia: Army Norway SUPPORT Fleet Sweden (*cut*)
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol → Rumania
Russia: Fleet Sweden SUPPORT Army Norway (*cut*)
Russia: Army Ukraine SUPPORT Fleet Sevastopol → Rumania
Turkey: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Rumania
Turkey: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Italian Army Greece → Serbia
Turkey: Army Constantinople SUPPORT Army Bulgaria
Turkey: Army Rumania SUPPORT Italian Army Greece → Serbia (*cut, destroyed*)
|